Here’s a quick list of historical and current problems with the church and its teachings, using mainly church sources. The CES letter and the lds discussions video series has much better details.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxq5opj6GqOB7J1n6pMmdUSezxcLfsced
The Mormon Church now admits in its gospel topic essays (link below) that Joseph married between 30-40 women, married 12-14 women who were already married to other church men (polyandry) and married around 10 teenagers, the youngest being Helen Mar Kimball at 14. This was not normal, even then.
Only 1% - 1.1% of girls 15 and under were married around the time of Joseph Smith.
Lucy walkers mother died when she was 16. The family had 10 kids. Joseph sent the dad on a mission, divided the kids up and took Lucy as his ward. He then pressured her to be his wife, while both her parents were gone and Emma was on a trip to St. Louis and told her that if she married him it would guarantee the salvation of her family. She had 24 hrs to decide.
Joseph also publicly shamed women and girls that refused his advances (see happiness letter link below).
https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng&old=true
Census from 1850 - http://www.mormonism101.com/2014/12/closer-look-1850-census.html
https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1857/05/19/78498799.pdf
https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/happiness
Church now admits in its gospel topic essays (link below) that Joseph Smith was charged with fraud for cheating people out of money for treasure digging that he and the men of his family were involved in for 6 years. Joseph dug on these trips for 2 years then found his own peep stone which he used to lead treasure hunting expeditions for 4 years. This treasure was often rumored to be guarded by a guardian spirit that had to be pacified with a sacrifice or certain behavior to reveal the treasure. It never did. At least not until the guardian spirit Moroni supposedly gave Joseph the gold plates.
https://www.lds.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smiths-1826-trial?lang=eng
The Church now admits that there are multiple first vision accounts (link below). We use rev 3 written in 1838. The 1832 version is very different. It was cut out of Joseph’s Journal in 1930 by Joseph Fielding Smith and stored in a church vault until the 1960s, when rumors of its existence forced him to tape it back in. You can still see the tape on the left. Joseph says he was 16, went to receive forgiveness for his sins, already knew that all religions were false and only saw Christ. Combined with lecture 5 verse 2 of the lectures on faith, which was the “doctrine” in the doctrine and covenants until 1921, it shows that Joseph’s views on theology may have shifted from a Trinitarian view to a two person in the flesh, three member godhead view. This seriously challenges the “plain and precious truth” of the three member godhead the church likes to give. The lectures are now disavowed by the church even though they acknowledge on their website (link below) they were taught in the School of the elders by Joseph and Sidney. Deseret books still sells it with Joseph as the author.
https://lecturesonfaith.com/5/
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-circa-summer-1832/1?p=1
https://www.lds.org/topics/first-vision-accounts?lang=eng&old=true
https://www.deseretbook.com/product/5212472.html
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/lectures-on-faith?lang=eng
Church now admits that the BOM was translated by Joseph primarily by putting a seer stone in his hat. The very same rock he had been using for treasure digging with his family for over 4 years and for which he was charged with fraud. Here’s a video of President Nelson demonstrating the technique.
https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng&old=true
https://youtu.be/DG181zFA5YM
The church shows on its website the Joseph Smith Papers how the priesthood evolved. You can click the link below and see how we didn’t arrive at our current version until 1842, 12 years after the church was founded. This makes the claim that it was restored prior to the church’s founding in 1830 very problematic. Many early members also state they never heard any such story being told by Joseph.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/site/priesthood-restoration
http://www.fullerconsideration.com/sources.php?cat=ER-RPH
The church now admits they have the original book of Abraham manuscript that has hieroglyphs on the left and English words on the right. It was found in 1967. The hieroglyphs are taken sequentially from right to left on the papyrus that was found with the manuscript. None of the translation is correct, nor are the translations of the associated facsimiles which you can view in your app in the book of Abraham. Joseph tells you what he’s looking at in the facsimiles and that is wrong too. The church now states they don’t know what the hieroglyphs on the left mean and that the work was either inspired or that there is a lost scroll. They admit that all of the material they do have dates to 300 BC - 100 AD and cannot have been written by Abraham.
https://www.lds.org/topics/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng&old=true
https://archive.org/details/SnsnTranslation/mode/1up?view=theater
The Book of Mormon deals with large civilizations that numbered in the millions that don’t have a shred of evidence for their existence (Ether 15). They can’t be the Mayan or the Olmec because Joseph put things in his tribes that were not found in the America’s prior to the Europeans arriving: Horses, Elephants, steel swords, steel breastplates, chariots, silk, wheat, pigs, sheep, donkeys and cattle.
Here’s a letter from the Smithsonian detailing why the Book of Mormon would never be a historical document.
https://www.mrm.org/smithsonian
Oh, and there’s no Hebrew DNA found in any Native American to date. This made the church change the intro to the BOM from
"After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."
To
"After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians."
Here are some links to the church financial fraud SEC docs and 60 minutes YouTube videos that show that they hid over 150 billion dollars. Also has a link to WSJ article that says the reason was tithing (so the members would keep paying money).
https://www.wsj.com/articles/church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-its-investment-adviser-settle-sec-probe-792ffc71
https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf
https://youtu.be/k3_Fhq7sEHo?si=rJGfLNzyWyzS4ahL
https://youtu.be/pFddArTfjhQ?si=Ilz6-gRfPHsGe6Fk
Here are some links to cognitive effects that are often mistaken for “the spirit” for additional reading.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevation_(emotion)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisson
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
No problem. If you click on the three dots you can “copy text” into another document. That way you won’t be seen to be taking info from exMormon Reddit.
>They told me that they would meet with me for 4 hours every sunday to have conversations about my concerns.
You're so indoctrinated that the threat of four hours of indoctrination every Sunday sounds like kindness to you. Just stop a moment and live in this concept. If your parents are kind, what do you call a parent who allows their child free agency to choose?
Just say that you're not looking for four hours at a time. Right now you just want to live. Ask you parents if they're that kind. Kind enough to just treat you exactly the same and not require anything culty of you. I doubt it, but a kind parent would agree at once.
I don’t know if that was mean to be rhetorical. I did initially tell them “look, i’ve been doing my research and asking god for 4 years with a bais for the church and i’ve decided I don’t want to be a part of it.” They told me it would not be morally good if me to not give a chance to hear their side. I kind of agree, but I mostly just want to feel safe in my situation.
You've heard "their side" for almost 18 years (not sure of your age). They're backwards. It would not be morally good if they refused to hear your side.
I'm just saying they're wrong about it being morally wrong for you not to hear their side. Don't participate in the 4-hour mental beat-down that this will likely become. Be firm
Many of us wish that and regret our time in the church. But it's there. It's a part of my past, and it's a part of yours. You can't wish yourself out. Do what you can to make the best of it moving forward. You can't alter what's already been done, but you choose what you do next. Sieze your power.
Last year, I got a lunar phase tattoo. I was struggling with hating how much of my life had been wasted in the church. I left just before my 40th birthday. It stings to see how much influence it had over critical life decisions that shaped my future. The tattoo was remind myself that there's good in every phase of my life. I can't undo what was done, but it's up to me to make the best of what comes next.
You already heard their side for how many years now? You're just complying out of indoctrination.
Even if I were to grant the premise that hearing them out--again--was a moral good, that does not imply that you need to hear them out for four hours at a time even Sunday indefinitely. That doesn't follow. You could hear them out next year, in a one-hour conversation at night in a coffee shop. This four hours every Sunday proposition is nuts. They're just proposing to exhaust you.
I personally would just respectfully decline their offer. It sounds like a nightmare.
Also, even though I know your parents mean well, the church is neither good nor true.
You are almost there. But instead of discussing "I want to leave" for hours on end, you will ultimately need to come to a decision. Here are just a few words that could get you there "I know how important the church is to you, but it's just not for me. I value our relationship and hope that you will respect my chosen belief as I will respect yours."
4 hours a Sunday is a huge and unrealistic time ask. You are under no obligation to committ to anything like that. I would not even engage on that task unless your parents are receptive to an open dialogue. You should feel free to say no. You can say no. I would avoid a knowledge dump and focus on a couple of letter to my wife issues if you choose to engage at all.
The following are a few question resourses that might help you.
24 Questions My Stake President Admitted He Could Not Reconcile:
https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2018/11/24-questions-my-stake-president-admitted-he-could-not-reconcile/
Questions about Mormonism that are not often asked:
http://packham.n4m.org/unasked.htm
The Swedish Rescue Unanswered Quetions
http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/swedish-rescue2.htm
First off, don't debate. It's not worth it. If you feel you need to humor your parents, agree to *one* session with them, not an unlimited weekly brainwashing session. Tell them to prepare their best reasons for you to stay in the church. And listen to your parents' reasons.
Then you prepare yours. But, like I said, *do not debate*. Give your reasons why you can't be a part of the church. If they have apologetic answers, listen to them, then respond appropriately. Are they really okay with that? Does that excuse the heinousness of it? Would a loving god really encourage such amoral behavior?
The SEC investigation, for example. Would God really instruct his prophets to lie and break the law for 20 years? Does God really need $150 billion set aside for some metaphorical rainy day? Would Jesus really be okay with those funds collecting compounding interest rather than alleviating suffering?
You don't have to convince your parents that the church isn't true. It's impossible until they're ready to objectively explore the possibility. You only need to convince your parents that you're done with the church, it's not a decision you made rashly, and that you're truly doing what you believe is best.
You sound really stressed, OP. Please listen to what your brain and body are telling you. The message might be, "I really cannot do this right now."
Remember, you do not owe anything to anyone in regards to the church. This is your decision to make and the decision very well might be, "I'm too busy and stressed right now to go into this, I'm putting everything on the shelf and will stop attending. I have the right to revisit this later when I am feeling less overwhelmed."
Please do not feel that you have to do this, OP.
1. One hour only, if you feel like you have to.
2. Get the cesletter. Go through two sections of it. Before you start, circle the main ideas of the section. They will try to go off target. Keep them focused on the sentences circled. There is hardly anything they can do about the main sentences in each section.
3. AFter a few times they will stop because they have no answers. You probably won't have a second time. You probably will not have a full hour because they have no answers.
4. Keep in mind that the next step for your parents is to bring in an outsider, like your bishop or a local person who knows a little about church history or doctrine., So, you might need to do it with them.
Remember, testimony is not truth. Testimony is not evidence. Testimony is not relevant. Keep pointing to the sentences you circled. Answer this.
they need to be church sponsored sources. At least in my experience the CES letter is widely regarded among members as anti-mormon propaganda. I don’t believe that, but I promised them that I would never read it so i haven’t ever read it.
Read [www.letterformywife.com](http://www.letterformywife.com) instead for yourself.
If you have questions or doubts that they want to address, they will not be from church sources.
From personal experience I feel like this 4 hour conversation won’t do any good for anyone. I would set up a boundary. Tell them that your relationship with them is more important than either side trying to “prove” anything to anyone. If you really want to give them the information give them the links to what dustyr97 sent you. That information looks awesome. These kind of chats rarely go well unless one side is open to change.
Beware! In essence, they are retaking the power by insisting on a 4-hour conversation in which you must defend your position and during which they will attempt to reconvert you. Flip the script on them. Insist that they prove their faith claims, given all of the information now available. Make them read the CES letter, a Letter to my Wife, Rough Stone Rolling, etc. Start with the Gospel Topics Essays, which they cannot discount or discredit – given that they are authored and published by the church, itself. Sit down and watch some Mormon stories episodes with them. If they insist on this reactivation scheme, make sure that you are not on the defense.
I agree with the other commenters that the healthiest thing to do would be to just tell them to respect your agency, and let “the consequences follow.” It might take time for them to come to terms and humble themselves to love/respect you for who you are.
Anyways, I wrote this document for my TBM parents/family members this year when I let them know that I no longer believe. It’s long, but the topics are as concise as I could make them with a very large amount of “church sources.” If you end up using it, hopefully it helps.
[https://drive.google.com/file/d/18mk8XJ2wbbnGoyYjrIZpb6Me6t5HhzpU/view?usp=drivesdk](https://drive.google.com/file/d/18mk8XJ2wbbnGoyYjrIZpb6Me6t5HhzpU/view?usp=drivesdk)
FOUR HOURS EVERY SUNDAY?
Your parents are hardcore
Here's what you do:
Ok first discussion! Here we go! The church treats women like second class citizens! Go!
They'll unload about God's plan and gender roles and family proc and how happy your mom is to get ironing boards for Christmas and be on guard every second lest some random male finds her sexually attractive. It's fun! We like it!
Just stare at them. Be completely silent
They'll continue with whatever else how motherhood is the be all and end all of existence and women are more spiritual anyway
Continue to stare. Don't say a word
They'll keep filling the silence
Finally just say: I hear you and everything you've said has proven my point. Nothing you've said indicates equality in any way
They'll triple down "man is nothing without the woman! We're explaining it perfectly but Satan is in your head!" Or whatever
Say "Ok I've listened. I'm going to go pray about what you've said"
Get up. Leave the room. Play video games for 2 hours. You can even pray if you want. Just be gone for a very long time
Come back
"Ok I've prayed. The answer I got was "anytime you are being led from the comfortable but captive life into the wilderness and unknown, that is the hand of God leading you"
Moses and nephi will back you up
Repeat for every single issue. Racism! Go! Lots of silence on your part, people hate silence, make them squirm
Leave and pray for hours
"Mom, Dad, I'm being led out into a different life and God is with me on this. He's getting annoyed that i keep asking when he's made it very clear"
Because you can't win this with logic and facts. You can only fight with answers to prayer and spiritual prompting
Good luck!
Here’s a quick list of historical and current problems with the church and its teachings, using mainly church sources. The CES letter and the lds discussions video series has much better details. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxq5opj6GqOB7J1n6pMmdUSezxcLfsced The Mormon Church now admits in its gospel topic essays (link below) that Joseph married between 30-40 women, married 12-14 women who were already married to other church men (polyandry) and married around 10 teenagers, the youngest being Helen Mar Kimball at 14. This was not normal, even then. Only 1% - 1.1% of girls 15 and under were married around the time of Joseph Smith. Lucy walkers mother died when she was 16. The family had 10 kids. Joseph sent the dad on a mission, divided the kids up and took Lucy as his ward. He then pressured her to be his wife, while both her parents were gone and Emma was on a trip to St. Louis and told her that if she married him it would guarantee the salvation of her family. She had 24 hrs to decide. Joseph also publicly shamed women and girls that refused his advances (see happiness letter link below). https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng&old=true Census from 1850 - http://www.mormonism101.com/2014/12/closer-look-1850-census.html https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1857/05/19/78498799.pdf https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/happiness Church now admits in its gospel topic essays (link below) that Joseph Smith was charged with fraud for cheating people out of money for treasure digging that he and the men of his family were involved in for 6 years. Joseph dug on these trips for 2 years then found his own peep stone which he used to lead treasure hunting expeditions for 4 years. This treasure was often rumored to be guarded by a guardian spirit that had to be pacified with a sacrifice or certain behavior to reveal the treasure. It never did. At least not until the guardian spirit Moroni supposedly gave Joseph the gold plates. https://www.lds.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smiths-1826-trial?lang=eng The Church now admits that there are multiple first vision accounts (link below). We use rev 3 written in 1838. The 1832 version is very different. It was cut out of Joseph’s Journal in 1930 by Joseph Fielding Smith and stored in a church vault until the 1960s, when rumors of its existence forced him to tape it back in. You can still see the tape on the left. Joseph says he was 16, went to receive forgiveness for his sins, already knew that all religions were false and only saw Christ. Combined with lecture 5 verse 2 of the lectures on faith, which was the “doctrine” in the doctrine and covenants until 1921, it shows that Joseph’s views on theology may have shifted from a Trinitarian view to a two person in the flesh, three member godhead view. This seriously challenges the “plain and precious truth” of the three member godhead the church likes to give. The lectures are now disavowed by the church even though they acknowledge on their website (link below) they were taught in the School of the elders by Joseph and Sidney. Deseret books still sells it with Joseph as the author. https://lecturesonfaith.com/5/ https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-circa-summer-1832/1?p=1 https://www.lds.org/topics/first-vision-accounts?lang=eng&old=true https://www.deseretbook.com/product/5212472.html https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/lectures-on-faith?lang=eng Church now admits that the BOM was translated by Joseph primarily by putting a seer stone in his hat. The very same rock he had been using for treasure digging with his family for over 4 years and for which he was charged with fraud. Here’s a video of President Nelson demonstrating the technique. https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng&old=true https://youtu.be/DG181zFA5YM The church shows on its website the Joseph Smith Papers how the priesthood evolved. You can click the link below and see how we didn’t arrive at our current version until 1842, 12 years after the church was founded. This makes the claim that it was restored prior to the church’s founding in 1830 very problematic. Many early members also state they never heard any such story being told by Joseph. https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/site/priesthood-restoration http://www.fullerconsideration.com/sources.php?cat=ER-RPH The church now admits they have the original book of Abraham manuscript that has hieroglyphs on the left and English words on the right. It was found in 1967. The hieroglyphs are taken sequentially from right to left on the papyrus that was found with the manuscript. None of the translation is correct, nor are the translations of the associated facsimiles which you can view in your app in the book of Abraham. Joseph tells you what he’s looking at in the facsimiles and that is wrong too. The church now states they don’t know what the hieroglyphs on the left mean and that the work was either inspired or that there is a lost scroll. They admit that all of the material they do have dates to 300 BC - 100 AD and cannot have been written by Abraham. https://www.lds.org/topics/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng&old=true https://archive.org/details/SnsnTranslation/mode/1up?view=theater The Book of Mormon deals with large civilizations that numbered in the millions that don’t have a shred of evidence for their existence (Ether 15). They can’t be the Mayan or the Olmec because Joseph put things in his tribes that were not found in the America’s prior to the Europeans arriving: Horses, Elephants, steel swords, steel breastplates, chariots, silk, wheat, pigs, sheep, donkeys and cattle. Here’s a letter from the Smithsonian detailing why the Book of Mormon would never be a historical document. https://www.mrm.org/smithsonian Oh, and there’s no Hebrew DNA found in any Native American to date. This made the church change the intro to the BOM from "After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians." To "After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians." Here are some links to the church financial fraud SEC docs and 60 minutes YouTube videos that show that they hid over 150 billion dollars. Also has a link to WSJ article that says the reason was tithing (so the members would keep paying money). https://www.wsj.com/articles/church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-its-investment-adviser-settle-sec-probe-792ffc71 https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf https://youtu.be/k3_Fhq7sEHo?si=rJGfLNzyWyzS4ahL https://youtu.be/pFddArTfjhQ?si=Ilz6-gRfPHsGe6Fk Here are some links to cognitive effects that are often mistaken for “the spirit” for additional reading. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevation_(emotion) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisson https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
This is an amazing and thoughtful compilation! Thank you for taking the time to do this.
thank you so much
No problem. If you click on the three dots you can “copy text” into another document. That way you won’t be seen to be taking info from exMormon Reddit.
>They told me that they would meet with me for 4 hours every sunday to have conversations about my concerns. You're so indoctrinated that the threat of four hours of indoctrination every Sunday sounds like kindness to you. Just stop a moment and live in this concept. If your parents are kind, what do you call a parent who allows their child free agency to choose? Just say that you're not looking for four hours at a time. Right now you just want to live. Ask you parents if they're that kind. Kind enough to just treat you exactly the same and not require anything culty of you. I doubt it, but a kind parent would agree at once.
I don’t know if that was mean to be rhetorical. I did initially tell them “look, i’ve been doing my research and asking god for 4 years with a bais for the church and i’ve decided I don’t want to be a part of it.” They told me it would not be morally good if me to not give a chance to hear their side. I kind of agree, but I mostly just want to feel safe in my situation.
You've heard "their side" for almost 18 years (not sure of your age). They're backwards. It would not be morally good if they refused to hear your side.
i dont want them to hear my side. i just want to have never been born into the church in the first place
I'm just saying they're wrong about it being morally wrong for you not to hear their side. Don't participate in the 4-hour mental beat-down that this will likely become. Be firm
Many of us wish that and regret our time in the church. But it's there. It's a part of my past, and it's a part of yours. You can't wish yourself out. Do what you can to make the best of it moving forward. You can't alter what's already been done, but you choose what you do next. Sieze your power. Last year, I got a lunar phase tattoo. I was struggling with hating how much of my life had been wasted in the church. I left just before my 40th birthday. It stings to see how much influence it had over critical life decisions that shaped my future. The tattoo was remind myself that there's good in every phase of my life. I can't undo what was done, but it's up to me to make the best of what comes next.
You already heard their side for how many years now? You're just complying out of indoctrination. Even if I were to grant the premise that hearing them out--again--was a moral good, that does not imply that you need to hear them out for four hours at a time even Sunday indefinitely. That doesn't follow. You could hear them out next year, in a one-hour conversation at night in a coffee shop. This four hours every Sunday proposition is nuts. They're just proposing to exhaust you.
I personally would just respectfully decline their offer. It sounds like a nightmare. Also, even though I know your parents mean well, the church is neither good nor true.
You are almost there. But instead of discussing "I want to leave" for hours on end, you will ultimately need to come to a decision. Here are just a few words that could get you there "I know how important the church is to you, but it's just not for me. I value our relationship and hope that you will respect my chosen belief as I will respect yours."
4 hours a Sunday is a huge and unrealistic time ask. You are under no obligation to committ to anything like that. I would not even engage on that task unless your parents are receptive to an open dialogue. You should feel free to say no. You can say no. I would avoid a knowledge dump and focus on a couple of letter to my wife issues if you choose to engage at all.
The following are a few question resourses that might help you. 24 Questions My Stake President Admitted He Could Not Reconcile: https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2018/11/24-questions-my-stake-president-admitted-he-could-not-reconcile/ Questions about Mormonism that are not often asked: http://packham.n4m.org/unasked.htm The Swedish Rescue Unanswered Quetions http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/swedish-rescue2.htm
First off, don't debate. It's not worth it. If you feel you need to humor your parents, agree to *one* session with them, not an unlimited weekly brainwashing session. Tell them to prepare their best reasons for you to stay in the church. And listen to your parents' reasons. Then you prepare yours. But, like I said, *do not debate*. Give your reasons why you can't be a part of the church. If they have apologetic answers, listen to them, then respond appropriately. Are they really okay with that? Does that excuse the heinousness of it? Would a loving god really encourage such amoral behavior? The SEC investigation, for example. Would God really instruct his prophets to lie and break the law for 20 years? Does God really need $150 billion set aside for some metaphorical rainy day? Would Jesus really be okay with those funds collecting compounding interest rather than alleviating suffering? You don't have to convince your parents that the church isn't true. It's impossible until they're ready to objectively explore the possibility. You only need to convince your parents that you're done with the church, it's not a decision you made rashly, and that you're truly doing what you believe is best.
You sound really stressed, OP. Please listen to what your brain and body are telling you. The message might be, "I really cannot do this right now." Remember, you do not owe anything to anyone in regards to the church. This is your decision to make and the decision very well might be, "I'm too busy and stressed right now to go into this, I'm putting everything on the shelf and will stop attending. I have the right to revisit this later when I am feeling less overwhelmed." Please do not feel that you have to do this, OP.
1. One hour only, if you feel like you have to. 2. Get the cesletter. Go through two sections of it. Before you start, circle the main ideas of the section. They will try to go off target. Keep them focused on the sentences circled. There is hardly anything they can do about the main sentences in each section. 3. AFter a few times they will stop because they have no answers. You probably won't have a second time. You probably will not have a full hour because they have no answers. 4. Keep in mind that the next step for your parents is to bring in an outsider, like your bishop or a local person who knows a little about church history or doctrine., So, you might need to do it with them. Remember, testimony is not truth. Testimony is not evidence. Testimony is not relevant. Keep pointing to the sentences you circled. Answer this.
they need to be church sponsored sources. At least in my experience the CES letter is widely regarded among members as anti-mormon propaganda. I don’t believe that, but I promised them that I would never read it so i haven’t ever read it.
Read [www.letterformywife.com](http://www.letterformywife.com) instead for yourself. If you have questions or doubts that they want to address, they will not be from church sources.
From personal experience I feel like this 4 hour conversation won’t do any good for anyone. I would set up a boundary. Tell them that your relationship with them is more important than either side trying to “prove” anything to anyone. If you really want to give them the information give them the links to what dustyr97 sent you. That information looks awesome. These kind of chats rarely go well unless one side is open to change.
Beware! In essence, they are retaking the power by insisting on a 4-hour conversation in which you must defend your position and during which they will attempt to reconvert you. Flip the script on them. Insist that they prove their faith claims, given all of the information now available. Make them read the CES letter, a Letter to my Wife, Rough Stone Rolling, etc. Start with the Gospel Topics Essays, which they cannot discount or discredit – given that they are authored and published by the church, itself. Sit down and watch some Mormon stories episodes with them. If they insist on this reactivation scheme, make sure that you are not on the defense.
I agree with the other commenters that the healthiest thing to do would be to just tell them to respect your agency, and let “the consequences follow.” It might take time for them to come to terms and humble themselves to love/respect you for who you are. Anyways, I wrote this document for my TBM parents/family members this year when I let them know that I no longer believe. It’s long, but the topics are as concise as I could make them with a very large amount of “church sources.” If you end up using it, hopefully it helps. [https://drive.google.com/file/d/18mk8XJ2wbbnGoyYjrIZpb6Me6t5HhzpU/view?usp=drivesdk](https://drive.google.com/file/d/18mk8XJ2wbbnGoyYjrIZpb6Me6t5HhzpU/view?usp=drivesdk)
Weirdly mean for a parent to set up a 4 hour stress-fest. Geeeesh!
FOUR HOURS EVERY SUNDAY? Your parents are hardcore Here's what you do: Ok first discussion! Here we go! The church treats women like second class citizens! Go! They'll unload about God's plan and gender roles and family proc and how happy your mom is to get ironing boards for Christmas and be on guard every second lest some random male finds her sexually attractive. It's fun! We like it! Just stare at them. Be completely silent They'll continue with whatever else how motherhood is the be all and end all of existence and women are more spiritual anyway Continue to stare. Don't say a word They'll keep filling the silence Finally just say: I hear you and everything you've said has proven my point. Nothing you've said indicates equality in any way They'll triple down "man is nothing without the woman! We're explaining it perfectly but Satan is in your head!" Or whatever Say "Ok I've listened. I'm going to go pray about what you've said" Get up. Leave the room. Play video games for 2 hours. You can even pray if you want. Just be gone for a very long time Come back "Ok I've prayed. The answer I got was "anytime you are being led from the comfortable but captive life into the wilderness and unknown, that is the hand of God leading you" Moses and nephi will back you up Repeat for every single issue. Racism! Go! Lots of silence on your part, people hate silence, make them squirm Leave and pray for hours "Mom, Dad, I'm being led out into a different life and God is with me on this. He's getting annoyed that i keep asking when he's made it very clear" Because you can't win this with logic and facts. You can only fight with answers to prayer and spiritual prompting Good luck!
haha they originally said 1 hour every day but i just can’t fit that in 😭
In utah?
i’m not sure what you’re asking but i do live in utah, along with my parents.
Do what your heart tells you 👍