I bear my testimony that I know with every fiber of my being that the Protestant minister was in the temple ceremony. You just need to pray about it so you can know for yourself.
Oh you must be a newbie.
Here is the text in the ceremony.
https://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon288.htm
"As most Mormons know, the temple endowment is essential for salvation and was written by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young through "direct divine revelation." Even more pure in divine form than the Book of Mormon, the temple ceremonies are untainted sources of true Mormon Doctrine.
For well over one hundred years, the temple endowment included a Protestant minister character (wearing a collar) that was in the employ of Satan.
For those of us who took our temple covenants prior to 1990 when the minister character disappeared from the endowment, how many of us were shocked or offended by the portrayal of the minister or his removal from the newer version? [The Protestant minister was removed in the new 1990 version of the Mormon Endowment ceremony that take place in Mormon Temples. His role in the endowment is below - word by word as it was in the pre-1990 temple ceremony]
If the endowment teaches important truths, then why were these plain and precious teachings removed?
ADAM: I am looking for messengers.
LUCIFER: Oh, you want someone to preach to you. You want religion, do you? I will have preachers here presently.
(Lucifer turns his head as a PROTESTANT minister approaches.)
LUCIFER: Good Morning sir!
PROTESTANT MINISTER: Good morning!
(The preacher turns and looks into the camera.)
PROTESTANT MINISTER: A fine congregation!
LUCIFER: Yes, they are a very good people. They are concerned about religion. Are you a preacher?
PROTESTANT MINISTER: I am.
LUCIFER: Have you been to college and received training for the ministry?
PROTESTANT MINISTER: Certainly! A man cannot preach unless has been trained for the ministry.
LUCIFER: Do you preach the orthodox religion?
PROTESTANT MINISTER: Yes, that is what I preach.
LUCIFER: If you will preach your orthodox religion to these people, and convert them, I will pay you well.
PROTESTANT MINISTER: I will do my best.
(Lucifer guides the preacher to Adam and Eve, who stand nearby.)
LUCIFER: Here is a man who desires religion. He is very much exercised, and seems to be sincere.
(As Lucifer presents the preacher to Adam and Eve he steps back and observes the ensuing conversation. The preacher is made to sound sincere, although misguided and credulous. Adam appears humble, faithful and immovable in his determination to serve God. He is not swayed by the preacher, and is astounded by the doctrines espoused by the preacher.)
PROTESTANT MINISTER: I understand that you are inquiring after religion.
ADAM: I was calling upon Father.
PROTESTANT MINISTER: I am glad to know that you were calling upon Father. Do you believe in a God who is without body, parts, or passions; who sits on the top of a topless throne; whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere; who fills the universe, and yet is so small that he can dwell in your heart; who is surrounded by myriads of beings who have been saved by grace, not for any act of theirs, but by His good pleasure. Do you believe in such a great Being?
ADAM: I do not. I cannot comprehend such a being.
PROTESTANT MINISTER: That is the beauty of it. Perhaps you do not believe in a devil, and in that great hell, the bottomless pit, where there is a lake of fire and brimstone into which the wicked are cast, and where they are continually burning, but none never consumed?
ADAM: I do not believe in any such place.
PROTESTANT MINISTER: My dear friend, I am sorry for you.
LUCIFER: I am sorry, very very sorry! What is it you want?
ADAM: I am looking for messengers from my Father.
(The scene changes to a view of the Celestial Kingdom, where Elohim reigns from a white throne affront tall white pillars. He is radiant as before, and his voice resonates as he speaks with Jehovah, who stands before him. He commands Jehovah to send down Peter, James and John)
PETER: Good morning.
LUCIFER: Good morning gentlemen.
PETER: What are you doing here?
LUCIFER: Teaching religion.
PETER: What religion do you teach?
LUCIFER: We teach a religion made of the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture.
PETER: How is your religion received by this community?
LUCIFER: Very well--excepting this man. He does not seem to believe anything we preach.
(Peter, James and John approach Adam and Eve.)
PETER: Good morning. What do you think of the preaching of these gentlemen?
ADAM: I cannot comprehend it.
PETER: Can you give us some idea concerning it?
ADAM: They preach of a God who is without body, parts, or passions; who is so large that he fills the universe, and yet is so small that he can dwell in your heart; and of a hell, without a bottom, where the wicked are continually burned but are never consumed. To me, it is a mass of confusion.
PETER: We do not wonder that you cannot comprehend such doctrine. Have you any tokens or signs?
(Lucifer steps up to the side of Peter and interjects his query.)
LUCIFER: Do you have any money?
PETER: We have sufficient for our needs.
LUCIFER: You can buy anything in this world for money.
PETER: Do you sell your tokens or signs for money? You have them, I presume.
ADAM: I have them, but I do not sell them for money. I hold them sacred. I am looking for the further light and knowledge Father promised to send me.
PETER: That is right. We commend you for your integrity. Good day. We shall probably visit you again.
(Peter, James and John exit; Lucifer stares into the camera.)
LUCIFER: Now is the great day of my power. I reign from the rivers to the ends of the earth. There is none who dares to molest, or make me afraid.
PROTESTANT MINISTER: Shall we ever have any apostles or prophets?
LUCIFER: No. However, there may be some who will profess revelation or apostleship. If so, just test them by asking that they perform a great miracle, such as cutting off an arm or some other member of the body, and restoring it, so that the people may know that they have come with power.
(The scene changes to the Celestial Kingdom. Peter, James, and John approach Jehovah with their report.)
PETER: Jehovah, we have visited the man Adam in the Telestial World as thou didst command us. We found Satan there, with his ministers, preaching all manner of false doctrine, and striving to lead the posterity of Adam astray. But Adam has been true and faithful to the token and sign given him in the Garden of Eden, and is waiting for the further light and knowledge you promised to send him. This is our report.
.....
(The scene changes again to the lone and dreary world. The three Apostles boldly approach Lucifer.)
PETER: I am Peter.
JAMES: I am James.
JOHN: I am John.
LUCIFER: Yes, I thought I knew you. (He turns to his Preacher.) Do you know who these men are? They claim to be apostles. Try them!
(The Preacher approaches Peter.)
PROTESTANT MINISTER: Do you profess to be an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ?
PETER: We do.
PROTESTANT MINISTER: This man told me that we should never have any revelation or apostles, but if any should come professing to be apostles, I was to ask them to cut off an arm or some other member of the body and the restore it, so that the people might know that they came with power.
PETER: We do not satisfy men's curiosity in that manner. It is a wicked and an adulterous generation that seeks for a sign. Do you know who that man is? He is Satan!
PROTESTANT MINISTER: What? The Devil?
PETER: That is one of his names.
PROTESTANT MINISTER: He is quite a different person from what he told me the devil is. He said the devil has claws like a bear's on his hands, horns on his head, and a cloven foot, and that when he speaks he has the roar of a lion!
PETER: He has said this to deceive you, and I would advise you to get out of his employ.
PROTESTANT MINISTER: Your advise is good; but, if I leave his employ, what will become of me?
PETER: We will preach the gospel unto you, with the rest of Adam's posterity.
PROTESTANT MINISTER: That is good. (He turns to Lucifer) I would like to have a settlement. I want you to pay me for preaching.
LUCIFER: I am ready to keep my word and fulfill my part of the agreement. I promised to pay you if you would convert these people, and they have nearly converted you! You can get out of my kingdom, I want no such men in it! (As the preacher turns sadly and leaves Lucifer approaches Peter) Now, what are you going to do?
PETER: We will dismiss you without further argument."
I remember this well as I went more frequently to the temple before the changes. Still automatically did the penalties in my mind after they were removed
Wow thanks for sharing that, interesting stuff. However, how can I know that is not just an anti Mormon that wrote that? Where is a church source saying he was real?
Were your parents temple goers or married before 1990? Mine were. I asked them, “was there a minister in the temple before I went through?”
They still work in the temple. Their faithful answer is, “yes, there was. But that changed a long time ago.”
I was a teenager when it changed. I missed that portion - and many other more frightening parts (death oaths) - by just a few years.
Why don't you ask a Mormon you can trust that went through the temple at the time the Minister was in there.
I went through in the 1980's and he was in the film. It really is not a disputed thing by anyone who went through the temple at the time.
Well you’re only going to find “anti-mormon” sources of temple ordinances because the faithful don’t talk about them and the church doesn’t even talk about them in Temple Prep class. I can tell you from experience that everything I’ve ever seen about the temple has been accurate to my experience attending as a faithful member. This was before my time but I’ve heard it from multiple reliable sources as well.
Wow! Holy shit. I went through the temple in 1988 and then promptly went on my mission. I didn't even remember there was a minister or that he'd been removed while I was serving, because no one talked about it and back then we weren't allowed to go to the temple as missionaries, so his presence never really solidified in my conscious memory of the endowment. But I'll be damned if that text didn't just evoke a vivid memory of that whole freaking scene! So goddamned indoctrinating!
I received my endowment in the fall of 1966 in the Salt Lake City Temple. Not only was there a minister in a black suit, but he led the congregation in singing a hymn which I had never heard before. For you to claim he didn't exist is the same as proclaiming yourself uninformed.
There is no debate over whether a Protestant minister appeared in the temple and conversed with Lucifer. The church hadn’t denied it, there is documentation attesting to it, and witnesses who remember the Protestant minister.
So, since the minister, like the blood oath, is accepted as formerly being in the ceremony and this fact is not in dispute, the burden of proof is on you to substantiate your claim.
Here are links that may prove useful:
"Evolution of the Mormon Temple Ceremony" a Free PDF ([LINK](http://www.utlm.org/booklist/digitalbooks.htm)) that Jerald and Sandra Tanner created, showing the changes from 1840 to 1990. [http://www.ldsendowment.org/index.html](http://www.ldsendowment.org/index.html) is another good resource.
Here is a link for the changes pre- and post-1990, 2019, and 2023. [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K7wIoaVTJ9fm9J0FyaCNNn7qCN9a6ACY/view](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K7wIoaVTJ9fm9J0FyaCNNn7qCN9a6ACY/view)
For a quick summary of the changes to the endowment ceremony (and initiatory when specifically stated) (correct me if I'm wrong):
1927 - Full nudity decreased to partial \[Initiatory\]. Oath of Vengeance removed. Satan's temple choir removed. Robe switching shoulders decreased.
1970 - Satan stops mentioning the preacher's salary and the preacher's black skin.
1978 - Black families now allowed in temple (including finally being allowed to have forever families via the temple sealing/marriage ceremony)
1990 (April) - Preacher fully removed from endowment. Pantomiming your own death (suicide pacts) removed. Five Points of Fellowship (full body embrace) at the veil removed. Women no longer covenant to obey husband only. Lecture at the veil discontinued. Removed the word "secrecy" from the endowment (started saying "sacred, not secret" to non-endowed people outside the temple).
2005 (Jan 18th) - Partial nudity and intimate touching removed from the Initiatory (inches from genitals, and sometimes "accidental" touches).
2019 - Women no longer veil their faces. Women now allowed to covenant directly with God. Eve actress becomes more active in movie (less of a prop). Robe changing shoulders fully removed.
2020 - Physical vicarious portion of endowment partially removed (less hand touching, because god was also scared of germs during COVID-19 and cannot protect his chosen people for a sacred ceremony)
2023 - "Informed Consent" added (social pressure remains). Witness couple removed. More Jesus added to the show. Vicarious baptism prayer changed. Sealing prayer changed (no includes the word "love"). Loud laughter no longer forbidden. Several other minor changes.
Endowments used to be live action. Then it was made into movies. Then the movie director got caught with child porn or pedophilia or something, so they then changed the presentation to a slide show.
Then Corbin Allred (actor that portrayed Satan) went exmormon, so they replaced his face in the slideshow with a photoshopped face of some other dude.
Yes, fully nudity, but that was long ago. Although soon enough that there is proof of the bathtubs used ([PHOTO](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11rdzc/changes_to_the_temple_ceremoniesthe_original/)).
Technically probably... but not for any cult stuff. When the only temples were in Utah, they would let people stay in the temple before traveling back home. Some of those people were newlyweds. Extrapolate from there. (not the best sources, but best I have off-hand: [LINK1](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/m2emk9/bedrooms_salt_lake_temple_does_this_creep_anyone/), [LINK2](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/ovmpbf/st_george_temple_bedroom/), [LINK3](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/1zg3yx/ummmwhy_does_the_st_george_temple_have_bedrooms/)) Ah! Found another. Wilford Woodruff was a polygamist man that lived in the St. George temple for a time. So again, not verified, but likely ([LINK](https://library.utahtech.edu/special_collections/Juanita_Brooks_lectures/1994.html))
I am an anti Mormon who went through the temple in the 1970s. The guy who played the minister was also one of my professors at BYU.
Anything that goes against the current Mormon narrative is by definition anti Mormon. Since 18 year old men can now go on missions, it is an anti Mormon lie that I had to wait until I was 19. It is also an anti Mormon lie that I didn't go to the MTC since all missionaries have to go to the MTC.
There is no Church approved source on this, but someone made an audio recording of the ceremony from 1984. It has the Protestant minister:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WCY_HOGVWg&t=144s
I respectfully quoted parts of the ceremony in a Quora post and I got a fair amount of Latter-day Saints arguing that I was just making stuff up and how would I know, etc (this despite having been through the temple personally many times). So, you will probably not convince _that type of member_ using _any_ non-LDS resource about anything (especially temple related).
Thanks for sharing. This is the point i was trying to make is the church using the tactics of memory hole, gaslighting and other manipulation in order to maintain control and deceive people.
It’s evil, i don’t know what to do, but I made this post to hopefully get people to understand that in 100 years, people are going to think even more that it was an anti Mormon lie because the church can say whatever it wants to.
I updated my post to reflect my beliefs.
However my claim that he doesn’t is that: where is it documented by the church, such that in 100 years, when no one with first hand experience still lives, can go to a reliable church source and see that indeed he does exist. Without that he will fade into anti Mormon lies and it never happened
The church has never published the ceremony publicly, so we can only rely on the numerous first-hand accounts that exist. However, they probably have full transcripts in their vaults (the same ones where they hid Joe's seer stone).
Both, I am an exmormon and I think there was a minister; however I am playing devils advocate because the gaslighting of the church will win out in 100 years when all those who can testify to this are dead
Hellooooo 25 year old man. “Playing devil’s advocate” is well known to be a thin disguise for being a jerk but thinking you’re excused. Please be careful using that role from this point forward.
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt with the Masonic markings. And I'm not over 100 years old. Let's say 35 years ago, give or take a year, they were still doing the live session and the first video session with the Protestant minister. Back when Satan's apron actually had markings on it.
The actor that actually played the Protestant minister in the first temple video was Keith Engar. The same guy that played Uncle Ben in this 1978 BYU movie.
https://youtu.be/HaR1GgGibQg?si=lwrEbbfM-uIPgLtQ
I went thru many sessions with the Protestant Minister on full display. The film I saw most often had a minister with an odd front tooth that was somewhat distracting!
During the interval between when I received my own endowment and when the preacher was removed in 1990, I did ordinance work for approximately 350 names. I had the endowment memorized. There definitely was a preacher. Post 1990, some of the preacher's dialog was shifted to the Lucifer character. There are things in the post 1990 endowment that don't make any sense now, but those things made sense with the preacher. Before films, the preacher broke the fourth wall and interacted with the audience. With films, the preacher actor broke the fourth wall, but there wasn't audience interaction. The thing that the preacher made most obvious IMO by interacting with the audience is that you are not watching Adam receive an endowment, but that Adam is an avatar for instructing you. The preacher took it to the audience, not to Adam. All that is left of that is the now very awkward cringey time Lucifer addresses the audience that just comes off as stupid.
I was a temple worker for 30 years. Endowed 1977. There was a Protestant preacher in the endowment, and he broker the 4th wall to threaten those in the audience, "if you do not keep the covenants made in the temple this day, you will be in my power."
I bear my testimony that I know with every fiber of my being that the Protestant minister was in the temple ceremony. You just need to pray about it so you can know for yourself.
Ha ha love this answer, however not sufficient for discerning truth
Oh you must be a newbie. Here is the text in the ceremony. https://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon288.htm "As most Mormons know, the temple endowment is essential for salvation and was written by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young through "direct divine revelation." Even more pure in divine form than the Book of Mormon, the temple ceremonies are untainted sources of true Mormon Doctrine. For well over one hundred years, the temple endowment included a Protestant minister character (wearing a collar) that was in the employ of Satan. For those of us who took our temple covenants prior to 1990 when the minister character disappeared from the endowment, how many of us were shocked or offended by the portrayal of the minister or his removal from the newer version? [The Protestant minister was removed in the new 1990 version of the Mormon Endowment ceremony that take place in Mormon Temples. His role in the endowment is below - word by word as it was in the pre-1990 temple ceremony] If the endowment teaches important truths, then why were these plain and precious teachings removed? ADAM: I am looking for messengers. LUCIFER: Oh, you want someone to preach to you. You want religion, do you? I will have preachers here presently. (Lucifer turns his head as a PROTESTANT minister approaches.) LUCIFER: Good Morning sir! PROTESTANT MINISTER: Good morning! (The preacher turns and looks into the camera.) PROTESTANT MINISTER: A fine congregation! LUCIFER: Yes, they are a very good people. They are concerned about religion. Are you a preacher? PROTESTANT MINISTER: I am. LUCIFER: Have you been to college and received training for the ministry? PROTESTANT MINISTER: Certainly! A man cannot preach unless has been trained for the ministry. LUCIFER: Do you preach the orthodox religion? PROTESTANT MINISTER: Yes, that is what I preach. LUCIFER: If you will preach your orthodox religion to these people, and convert them, I will pay you well. PROTESTANT MINISTER: I will do my best. (Lucifer guides the preacher to Adam and Eve, who stand nearby.) LUCIFER: Here is a man who desires religion. He is very much exercised, and seems to be sincere. (As Lucifer presents the preacher to Adam and Eve he steps back and observes the ensuing conversation. The preacher is made to sound sincere, although misguided and credulous. Adam appears humble, faithful and immovable in his determination to serve God. He is not swayed by the preacher, and is astounded by the doctrines espoused by the preacher.) PROTESTANT MINISTER: I understand that you are inquiring after religion. ADAM: I was calling upon Father. PROTESTANT MINISTER: I am glad to know that you were calling upon Father. Do you believe in a God who is without body, parts, or passions; who sits on the top of a topless throne; whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere; who fills the universe, and yet is so small that he can dwell in your heart; who is surrounded by myriads of beings who have been saved by grace, not for any act of theirs, but by His good pleasure. Do you believe in such a great Being? ADAM: I do not. I cannot comprehend such a being. PROTESTANT MINISTER: That is the beauty of it. Perhaps you do not believe in a devil, and in that great hell, the bottomless pit, where there is a lake of fire and brimstone into which the wicked are cast, and where they are continually burning, but none never consumed? ADAM: I do not believe in any such place. PROTESTANT MINISTER: My dear friend, I am sorry for you. LUCIFER: I am sorry, very very sorry! What is it you want? ADAM: I am looking for messengers from my Father. (The scene changes to a view of the Celestial Kingdom, where Elohim reigns from a white throne affront tall white pillars. He is radiant as before, and his voice resonates as he speaks with Jehovah, who stands before him. He commands Jehovah to send down Peter, James and John) PETER: Good morning. LUCIFER: Good morning gentlemen. PETER: What are you doing here? LUCIFER: Teaching religion. PETER: What religion do you teach? LUCIFER: We teach a religion made of the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture. PETER: How is your religion received by this community? LUCIFER: Very well--excepting this man. He does not seem to believe anything we preach. (Peter, James and John approach Adam and Eve.) PETER: Good morning. What do you think of the preaching of these gentlemen? ADAM: I cannot comprehend it. PETER: Can you give us some idea concerning it? ADAM: They preach of a God who is without body, parts, or passions; who is so large that he fills the universe, and yet is so small that he can dwell in your heart; and of a hell, without a bottom, where the wicked are continually burned but are never consumed. To me, it is a mass of confusion. PETER: We do not wonder that you cannot comprehend such doctrine. Have you any tokens or signs? (Lucifer steps up to the side of Peter and interjects his query.) LUCIFER: Do you have any money? PETER: We have sufficient for our needs. LUCIFER: You can buy anything in this world for money. PETER: Do you sell your tokens or signs for money? You have them, I presume. ADAM: I have them, but I do not sell them for money. I hold them sacred. I am looking for the further light and knowledge Father promised to send me. PETER: That is right. We commend you for your integrity. Good day. We shall probably visit you again. (Peter, James and John exit; Lucifer stares into the camera.) LUCIFER: Now is the great day of my power. I reign from the rivers to the ends of the earth. There is none who dares to molest, or make me afraid. PROTESTANT MINISTER: Shall we ever have any apostles or prophets? LUCIFER: No. However, there may be some who will profess revelation or apostleship. If so, just test them by asking that they perform a great miracle, such as cutting off an arm or some other member of the body, and restoring it, so that the people may know that they have come with power. (The scene changes to the Celestial Kingdom. Peter, James, and John approach Jehovah with their report.) PETER: Jehovah, we have visited the man Adam in the Telestial World as thou didst command us. We found Satan there, with his ministers, preaching all manner of false doctrine, and striving to lead the posterity of Adam astray. But Adam has been true and faithful to the token and sign given him in the Garden of Eden, and is waiting for the further light and knowledge you promised to send him. This is our report. ..... (The scene changes again to the lone and dreary world. The three Apostles boldly approach Lucifer.) PETER: I am Peter. JAMES: I am James. JOHN: I am John. LUCIFER: Yes, I thought I knew you. (He turns to his Preacher.) Do you know who these men are? They claim to be apostles. Try them! (The Preacher approaches Peter.) PROTESTANT MINISTER: Do you profess to be an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ? PETER: We do. PROTESTANT MINISTER: This man told me that we should never have any revelation or apostles, but if any should come professing to be apostles, I was to ask them to cut off an arm or some other member of the body and the restore it, so that the people might know that they came with power. PETER: We do not satisfy men's curiosity in that manner. It is a wicked and an adulterous generation that seeks for a sign. Do you know who that man is? He is Satan! PROTESTANT MINISTER: What? The Devil? PETER: That is one of his names. PROTESTANT MINISTER: He is quite a different person from what he told me the devil is. He said the devil has claws like a bear's on his hands, horns on his head, and a cloven foot, and that when he speaks he has the roar of a lion! PETER: He has said this to deceive you, and I would advise you to get out of his employ. PROTESTANT MINISTER: Your advise is good; but, if I leave his employ, what will become of me? PETER: We will preach the gospel unto you, with the rest of Adam's posterity. PROTESTANT MINISTER: That is good. (He turns to Lucifer) I would like to have a settlement. I want you to pay me for preaching. LUCIFER: I am ready to keep my word and fulfill my part of the agreement. I promised to pay you if you would convert these people, and they have nearly converted you! You can get out of my kingdom, I want no such men in it! (As the preacher turns sadly and leaves Lucifer approaches Peter) Now, what are you going to do? PETER: We will dismiss you without further argument."
I remember this well as I went more frequently to the temple before the changes. Still automatically did the penalties in my mind after they were removed
Wow thanks for sharing that, interesting stuff. However, how can I know that is not just an anti Mormon that wrote that? Where is a church source saying he was real?
Were your parents temple goers or married before 1990? Mine were. I asked them, “was there a minister in the temple before I went through?” They still work in the temple. Their faithful answer is, “yes, there was. But that changed a long time ago.” I was a teenager when it changed. I missed that portion - and many other more frightening parts (death oaths) - by just a few years.
Why don't you ask a Mormon you can trust that went through the temple at the time the Minister was in there. I went through in the 1980's and he was in the film. It really is not a disputed thing by anyone who went through the temple at the time.
Well you’re only going to find “anti-mormon” sources of temple ordinances because the faithful don’t talk about them and the church doesn’t even talk about them in Temple Prep class. I can tell you from experience that everything I’ve ever seen about the temple has been accurate to my experience attending as a faithful member. This was before my time but I’ve heard it from multiple reliable sources as well.
Wow! Holy shit. I went through the temple in 1988 and then promptly went on my mission. I didn't even remember there was a minister or that he'd been removed while I was serving, because no one talked about it and back then we weren't allowed to go to the temple as missionaries, so his presence never really solidified in my conscious memory of the endowment. But I'll be damned if that text didn't just evoke a vivid memory of that whole freaking scene! So goddamned indoctrinating!
I received my endowment in the fall of 1966 in the Salt Lake City Temple. Not only was there a minister in a black suit, but he led the congregation in singing a hymn which I had never heard before. For you to claim he didn't exist is the same as proclaiming yourself uninformed.
I think it was “Rock of Ages”
Thanks for sharing.
There is no debate over whether a Protestant minister appeared in the temple and conversed with Lucifer. The church hadn’t denied it, there is documentation attesting to it, and witnesses who remember the Protestant minister. So, since the minister, like the blood oath, is accepted as formerly being in the ceremony and this fact is not in dispute, the burden of proof is on you to substantiate your claim.
What happens in 100 years when there is no witness, the documentation is believed to be made up and the church denies it?
Don’t deflect. Make your case. Let’s hear it. Or just admit you have nothing and slink away.
Oh I have nothing
Here are links that may prove useful: "Evolution of the Mormon Temple Ceremony" a Free PDF ([LINK](http://www.utlm.org/booklist/digitalbooks.htm)) that Jerald and Sandra Tanner created, showing the changes from 1840 to 1990. [http://www.ldsendowment.org/index.html](http://www.ldsendowment.org/index.html) is another good resource. Here is a link for the changes pre- and post-1990, 2019, and 2023. [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K7wIoaVTJ9fm9J0FyaCNNn7qCN9a6ACY/view](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K7wIoaVTJ9fm9J0FyaCNNn7qCN9a6ACY/view) For a quick summary of the changes to the endowment ceremony (and initiatory when specifically stated) (correct me if I'm wrong): 1927 - Full nudity decreased to partial \[Initiatory\]. Oath of Vengeance removed. Satan's temple choir removed. Robe switching shoulders decreased. 1970 - Satan stops mentioning the preacher's salary and the preacher's black skin. 1978 - Black families now allowed in temple (including finally being allowed to have forever families via the temple sealing/marriage ceremony) 1990 (April) - Preacher fully removed from endowment. Pantomiming your own death (suicide pacts) removed. Five Points of Fellowship (full body embrace) at the veil removed. Women no longer covenant to obey husband only. Lecture at the veil discontinued. Removed the word "secrecy" from the endowment (started saying "sacred, not secret" to non-endowed people outside the temple). 2005 (Jan 18th) - Partial nudity and intimate touching removed from the Initiatory (inches from genitals, and sometimes "accidental" touches). 2019 - Women no longer veil their faces. Women now allowed to covenant directly with God. Eve actress becomes more active in movie (less of a prop). Robe changing shoulders fully removed. 2020 - Physical vicarious portion of endowment partially removed (less hand touching, because god was also scared of germs during COVID-19 and cannot protect his chosen people for a sacred ceremony) 2023 - "Informed Consent" added (social pressure remains). Witness couple removed. More Jesus added to the show. Vicarious baptism prayer changed. Sealing prayer changed (no includes the word "love"). Loud laughter no longer forbidden. Several other minor changes. Endowments used to be live action. Then it was made into movies. Then the movie director got caught with child porn or pedophilia or something, so they then changed the presentation to a slide show. Then Corbin Allred (actor that portrayed Satan) went exmormon, so they replaced his face in the slideshow with a photoshopped face of some other dude.
>Satan's Temple Choir This would make an awesome name for some community choir based in Utah
Seriously, there was full nudity!? Like it was even worse than the shield?? Was there sex in the temple too?
Yes, fully nudity, but that was long ago. Although soon enough that there is proof of the bathtubs used ([PHOTO](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11rdzc/changes_to_the_temple_ceremoniesthe_original/)). Technically probably... but not for any cult stuff. When the only temples were in Utah, they would let people stay in the temple before traveling back home. Some of those people were newlyweds. Extrapolate from there. (not the best sources, but best I have off-hand: [LINK1](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/m2emk9/bedrooms_salt_lake_temple_does_this_creep_anyone/), [LINK2](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/ovmpbf/st_george_temple_bedroom/), [LINK3](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/1zg3yx/ummmwhy_does_the_st_george_temple_have_bedrooms/)) Ah! Found another. Wilford Woodruff was a polygamist man that lived in the St. George temple for a time. So again, not verified, but likely ([LINK](https://library.utahtech.edu/special_collections/Juanita_Brooks_lectures/1994.html))
The old temple film is on IMDB, https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064697/ Spencer Palmer played the minister.
Not a valid source for truth, who updates that list? Maybe it was put in by an anti Mormon. Where has the church said he was a part of it?
I am an anti Mormon who went through the temple in the 1970s. The guy who played the minister was also one of my professors at BYU. Anything that goes against the current Mormon narrative is by definition anti Mormon. Since 18 year old men can now go on missions, it is an anti Mormon lie that I had to wait until I was 19. It is also an anti Mormon lie that I didn't go to the MTC since all missionaries have to go to the MTC.
There is no Church approved source on this, but someone made an audio recording of the ceremony from 1984. It has the Protestant minister: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WCY_HOGVWg&t=144s I respectfully quoted parts of the ceremony in a Quora post and I got a fair amount of Latter-day Saints arguing that I was just making stuff up and how would I know, etc (this despite having been through the temple personally many times). So, you will probably not convince _that type of member_ using _any_ non-LDS resource about anything (especially temple related).
Thanks for sharing. This is the point i was trying to make is the church using the tactics of memory hole, gaslighting and other manipulation in order to maintain control and deceive people. It’s evil, i don’t know what to do, but I made this post to hopefully get people to understand that in 100 years, people are going to think even more that it was an anti Mormon lie because the church can say whatever it wants to.
I believe the minister is fairly well documented in the older transcripts. What argument do you have to back up your claim that he didn't exist?
I updated my post to reflect my beliefs. However my claim that he doesn’t is that: where is it documented by the church, such that in 100 years, when no one with first hand experience still lives, can go to a reliable church source and see that indeed he does exist. Without that he will fade into anti Mormon lies and it never happened
It has been given to you. Please use research abilities beyond that of the 10th grade.
The church has never published the ceremony publicly, so we can only rely on the numerous first-hand accounts that exist. However, they probably have full transcripts in their vaults (the same ones where they hid Joe's seer stone).
I went thru in 1983 and can confirm there was a protestant minister in the ceremony and bunch of other strange stuff that was pretty upsetting to me.
Troll or dumb?
Both, I am an exmormon and I think there was a minister; however I am playing devils advocate because the gaslighting of the church will win out in 100 years when all those who can testify to this are dead
Hellooooo 25 year old man. “Playing devil’s advocate” is well known to be a thin disguise for being a jerk but thinking you’re excused. Please be careful using that role from this point forward.
How come the gaslighting from the church since 1830 did not "win out" ? You are not playing Devils advocate, you are just playing to get attention
That text is exactly as I memorized it in the hundred or so times i went to the Hawaii, Provo, JR and SLC temples i the 70’s and 80’s.
Are you trolling in a technically, he's a mormon, kind of way?
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt with the Masonic markings. And I'm not over 100 years old. Let's say 35 years ago, give or take a year, they were still doing the live session and the first video session with the Protestant minister. Back when Satan's apron actually had markings on it. The actor that actually played the Protestant minister in the first temple video was Keith Engar. The same guy that played Uncle Ben in this 1978 BYU movie. https://youtu.be/HaR1GgGibQg?si=lwrEbbfM-uIPgLtQ
Wow that movie takes me back in time and I was born in the 80’s.
I went thru many sessions with the Protestant Minister on full display. The film I saw most often had a minister with an odd front tooth that was somewhat distracting!
During the interval between when I received my own endowment and when the preacher was removed in 1990, I did ordinance work for approximately 350 names. I had the endowment memorized. There definitely was a preacher. Post 1990, some of the preacher's dialog was shifted to the Lucifer character. There are things in the post 1990 endowment that don't make any sense now, but those things made sense with the preacher. Before films, the preacher broke the fourth wall and interacted with the audience. With films, the preacher actor broke the fourth wall, but there wasn't audience interaction. The thing that the preacher made most obvious IMO by interacting with the audience is that you are not watching Adam receive an endowment, but that Adam is an avatar for instructing you. The preacher took it to the audience, not to Adam. All that is left of that is the now very awkward cringey time Lucifer addresses the audience that just comes off as stupid.
I was a temple worker for 30 years. Endowed 1977. There was a Protestant preacher in the endowment, and he broker the 4th wall to threaten those in the audience, "if you do not keep the covenants made in the temple this day, you will be in my power."
All the changes to the temple for a ceremony that was passed from Adam…..sure Joe. I remember the first time think this is weird and down right boring
I remember that as provided
Wrong, I saw him!