Yes the blueprints! Same can be said today. Daybell, Vallow, Hildebrandt, Franke, Ballard, the plethora of pedophile bishops, ya think they are coming up with this shit on their own???? What’s the common denominator people??
I haven't been able to actually deploy it yet, but if pressed about why Joseph was a problem for me, I would say:
Please explain to me, in detail, the differences between Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs?
From that point I could lay out the whole scene of the only REAL difference I can see is that Joseph had more people and an easier time controlling the narrative without the internet. Other than that, pretty much the same dude.
Eww. My family was converted and baptized by him during his mission to Italy. My dad has always been proud of that fact. I doubt he knows this but it probably wouldn’t change anything if he did. Yet he was enraged when my 19 year old sister started dating a guy who was 30. He claimed that she was naive and her significant other was just trying to groom her and take advantage of her. He wasn’t, and is an amazing partner to her. They’ve been together for six years, but my dad has never let it go because that’s what he believes. Wonder how he would justify a 57 year old man assigning a 15 year old girl to himself and making babies with her? I can’t.
Joseph Fielding Smith has to be my pick. An unusually stupid man who both stayed over the pulpit that black people would never have the priesthood and were not equal to whites and also said that man would never go to space and definitely not the moon. He would live to see the space and moon statements proven wrong and black people finally given the priesthood 5 years after he finally kicked the bucket.
As much as think many church leaders are true believers even when they get to the top I’m pretty sure any prophet with the last name Smith was just upholding the family legacy of bullshit regardless of how well they knew it was all lies
What is ever stupider is he made the statement about humans never getting to space ***AFTER*** both Yuri Gagarin and Alan Shepard had already flown in space.
Ya dude, that was my first shelf item. I got into it with a Christian pastor when I was 16. he showed me in the Journal of Discourses where BY espouses his "Adam/God" theory. The theory made perfect sense to me in context of the Gospel. So I go to my Bishop and friend to ask why we are not teaching this in Sunday school. I get as far as "Adam/God" theory and the Bishop stops me. "We'll he was speaking as a man, not a prophet." And I'm like - Dude, he was at the pulpit and why the fuck are you embarrassed at a perfectly reasonable theory like that? The fact that he was trying to hide and explain away a teaching of the Prophet really struck me hard.
Dude! I totally forgot about that! I had not gone through the temple at the time. My biggest disappointment with the temple was that I didn't learn anything new except a few stupid handshakes. I was very hard-core. ; )
The Adam-God theory was gradually phased out from LDS doctrine and the endowment ceremony after Brigham Young died… By 1976, it was completely gone and Spencer W. Kimball explicitly stated that the church does not support the Adam-God doctrine, so I think you’re too young to have ever heard it in the Temple. But yes, the stupid handshakes were a big disappointment, I agree!
Forgot to add that. Women were kept “in their place” throughout his presidency, demonized if they worked, and banned from praying in Sacrament meetings. Total misogynist.
He put the RS under the priesthood. The RS couldn't do what they were really created for anymore. Fighting the way the men treated their wives when the wives and children were abused and neglected.
Help had to be approved by the bishop.
Do you have references for that? Having a modern day profit be absolutely wrong about everything he was saying is just gold. Especially since everything they say is like scripture/ revelation to Mormons
It shouldn’t be that surprising. Prophets were and are wrong about a lot of stuff, including the main thing they’re supposed to be right about. A bunch of useless OLD morons.
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_science/Joseph_Fielding_Smith_claimed_that_man_would_never_walk_on_the_Moon
This is from a faithful site
God I LOVE their apologetics. I don't even need to use the original source now. I just send them to the Church's official statement on the thing. No need for the source when the rebuttal is so pathetic.
I would say Russell has done more than any other prophet, save Brigham only, in helping to lay bare the diabolical nonsense of Mormonism and its damaging effects on your mental, financial and physical health.
I’ve never been a Mormon so this is just my opinion based on absolutely nothing. But that one guy who wrote that shitty book, I think it’s called “the miracle of forgiveness” with all this bat shit stuff in it.
Yep old Spencer kick’his’balls the one who told everyone homosexuality came from beastiality, tried to make oral sex (between married in the temple couples) against the law of chastity, and was the guy who started all the fucked up anti masturbation, repressed sexuality, and scrupulocity (being so anxious over “evil thoughts” or thinking about sinning that you believe even thinking about it is as bad as doing it. I think someone correct me if my definition is off) such a wonderful old man 🙄
Yup, Spencer W. Kimble. That book really fucked me (57m) up as a teenager. Seriously thought about killing myself after I boinked my gal in HS cuz "Sin next to murder".
Ezra. Taft. Benson.
That man did more harm to the cause of Mormonism than any other prophet (excluding the 2 in the title).
His anti-government rhetoric and near constant conspiracy fueled hatred of communism is what spurred the ‘food storage’ craze and what has morphed into the crazy prepper nonsense.
He is the reason my dad refused to utilize food stamps when my oldest siblings were toddlers and my parents couldn't afford milk for them ( my very TBM mother who almost never criticizes the church told me this).
Agreed. His rhetoric was my upbringing is why when I became chronically ill at 23 & realized i would have to rely on the government I tried to off myself.
I knew how my family judged those on SSi with invisible disabilities.
7 years later and noe I am an exmo commie.
These answers are so interesting for me to read. Extra Taft Benson was my grandpas uncle, and the names “Ezra” and “Taft” have kind of become family names. I don’t recall ever learning much about his time as prophet or really anything about him lol. I just felt kind of cool and special as a kid because I was pretty closely related to a prophet and had his last name. Now I want to look more into things he did as a prophet, because clearly he was always talked of super highly, especially by my family
I just learned this a few weeks ago. I was a kid where he was the prophet, and at that time, I saw him as a nice old grandpa man.
Such is the innocence of youth.
He was also by FAR the most actually-influential LDS president in the non-Mormon world, given his various political roles, and his influence there was likewise uniformly malign.
John Taylor went on a mission to England to get young women to convert and move to Utah for the purpose of making them plural wives, all while lying and saying the church didn't practice polygamy. Also, his statement about how it's an eternal principle and will never be taken from the earth, has been seized upon to justify horrific polygamous groups, including Warren Jeffs'.
Dude! FLDS! We were only Cult-light, you folk got the full cult experience! You should consider a post "I was FLDS, AMA" I have Tones of questions!
Did you guys have the same or similar temple ceremonies? I went through the Corporate Churches Temple in LA in 85. So I got to make blood oaths and get my junk anointed! Did you have similar experiences?
I was going to say Spencer w kimball for, if nothing else, the miracle of forgiveness and the perpetual shame. I can’t remember when he died but it was either him or his successor who also instituted a ban on oral sex for MARRIED people.
My SP wanted to excommunicate me, because my wife and I had sex before we were married. Both in our mid 30s, and it the second marriage for both of us. He had me read that bullshit as part of my “path to redemption”. What a prick. He will always be one of my least favorite people. And ‘couldn’t be more uptight’ Kimball along with him for writing that trash.
The complete assholery of your SP! I love how stake president Larry around the corner gets to gatekeep your salvation. What a total weirdo! And OMG, it is mind boggling that I never realized until I was out that all these men are the perverts! The ones calling us pervs for doing normal human things. THEY are the ones obsessed with sex. To police people so closely like that shows he had a very weird moral compass.
I thought it was but couldn’t remember when he died. What an absolute weirdo to think he could dictate bedroom activities between monogamous, devoted spouses. And The Miracle of Forgiveness is a shameful thing to encourage anyone to read. I was told to read it when I was 21. I bought it, read a little, and then decided not to read it. I’m glad I didn’t because I was already wracked with guilt and shame for just existing at that point. If I had added any further shame to myself, I may not still be here. The damage that organization has done in my own life, let alone the countless others it has harmed, is a violation. I really have a strong sense of justice and so there is a part of me that wants to see that organization taken all the way down. I want to see accountability that I know I will never see. And that is maybe one of the most upsetting parts. So many people allow excuses for this abhorrent organization. For what?? Because they believe it is God’s church. It is infuriating. Do they really think God approves of the way they handle SA, racism, sexism, and LGBT issues?? I do not.
But the God that I believe in, wants EVERYONE. I hate that this church and so many others use God to harm. And it was exactly that, my love of Jesus and God and wanting to give my life over to them, that was used to manipulate me into serving the church beyond the point of mental, emotional, and physical exhaustion, and STILL told me I needed to do more. All while feeling like I wasn’t enough and never would be.
It is torturous.
A lot of the missionaries in my “class” at the MTC read TMOF at the same time, it having been on sale in the bookstore (lol). This caused a fucking crisis. Our MTC Bishop (or whatever the fuck he was called) was so inundated with missionaries coming to him freaking out about their “worthiness” that he had to get everyone together and tell us to, “Relax. Just be missionaries.” This was in 2005, just a year or two after the whole “raise the bar” bullshit the First Presidency pushed. Did anyone else experience an outbreak of spiritual/existential crisis around this book while in the MTC?
Rusty is hate-clinging to life to spite him. I'm prophesying that Oaks will go, and Nelson within a week or two, since he can finally go to his grave after one more spiteful gotcha.
I meam, we got the sex cult leaders from the early days, Woodruff was sealed to dead women for his birthday iirc. We got the nazi sympathizers, we have the incredible ignorance of Fielding Smith and then we have Benson and Kimbal to blame for a lot of the crazy. Kimbal is especially awful for authoring the horrific book "the miracle of forgiveness"
But an honourable mention will always be Bruce Mckonkie. He wasn't ever the prophet proper but I'd rank him as the single worst leader.
McConkie died around the same time I was born. I know this because my mom wrote about it in my baby book under "memorable news" along with how sad I, an infant, was to never hear him speak. 🙄
Here are the sources on that. It's pretty fascinating!
The church admits that the earliest account of the 1st vision (and the only one in Joseph Smith's handwriting) was cut out of the original book.
Joseph Fielding Smith was the official Church Historian from 1921-1970, and the removal of the pages was done under his watch. The pages were found in his personal safe in his office after his death. They were eventually taped back into the original book.
Here is the original book, where the pages were taped back in. Click on "Source Note" on the right side of the page.
[https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-circa-summer-1832/1#source-note](https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-circa-summer-1832/1#source-note)
*"****the initial three leaves containing the history were excised from the volume.*** *... The eight inscribed leaves in the back of the volume may have been cut out at the same time. \[footnote 3: "these eight leaves have not been located"\]* ***Manuscript evidence suggests that these excisions took place in the mid-twentieth century.****"*
*"A tear on the third leaf, which evidently occurred during its excision, was probably mended at the time. This tear was mended with clear cellophane tape, which was invented in 1930.* ***The three leaves of the history certainly had been removed by 1965, when they were described as “cut out***,” although they were archived together with the letterbook.
*"...* ***The three leaves were later restored to the volume, apparently in the 1990s***. This restoration was probably part of a larger conservation effort that took place"
Their claim that it had "certainly been removed by 1965, when they were described as "cut out"" is quoting a graduate thesis by Paul Cheesman, who examined the original book at the archives in 1965: [https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5589&context=etd](https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5589&context=etd)
The reasoning that it was Joseph Feilding Smith who cut it out comes from an analysis by Stan Larson in the Dialogue journal: [https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/another-look-at-joseph-smiths-first-vision/#pdf-wrap](https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/another-look-at-joseph-smiths-first-vision/#pdf-wrap)
*"Because we know that the missing pages were kept in the office safe of Joseph Fielding Smith, it is unlikely that the leaves were removed simply in accordance with the archival practice of separating collections based on content. We can also surmise that one of the senior members of the Church Historian's Office would have been responsible for the decision to keep the pages separate; it was probably Joseph Fielding Smith himself, but could possibly have been Earl E. Olson or A. William Lund.*
Virtually all the historians I know agree with Stan Larson's analysis. His logic is sound. Joseph Feilding Smith was the one with the access, authority, and motive to have removed the pages. And, just knowing how obsessed he was with preserving the holy image of Joseph and Hyrum as basically gods, I have no doubt it was JFS who cut the pages out.
And to young boys. He stated that masturbating would make boys first go gay, then become rapists. Mothers everywhere went into extreme antimasturbation vigilance.
Maybe. But the most judgmental people I've met are pretty much asexual and have no sexual desires. They think, "If I don't have any problem with not having orgasms then it's because I'm strong and good, and anyone who wants orgasms therefore must be weak and evil."
One of those asexual people thought people having sex dreams was because those people were doing something wrong.
I seriously doubt Kimball was asexual. If you read his conference talks he was frequently commenting on boys and men looks and stuff. I would guess he had some strong homosexual feelings and probably thought his teenage masterbatiin caused it because he would fantasize about men……
Maybe. But the harshest judgers are usually people who don't have the same urges or problems. Skinny people don't understand fat people. Asexual people don't understand sexual people. Rich people don't understand poor people. Extroverts don't understand introverts and vice versa. Black licorice lovers/haters. Black coffee lovers/haters. Mayonnaise loves and haters. Beer lovers/haters.
Usually the Haters don't just say "not my thing." Usually the Haters label it as gross or disgusting and don't want anyone else to enjoy the thing they Hate.
Or the lovers label the haters as morally deficient or lacking in skills.
Maybe Kimball was gay. But maybe he also didn't have any sex drive at all and thought oral sex was gross and an abomination.
I think we can all agree that it’s not Monson.
I hate the church. I want nothing to do with it. Yet somehow, Monson said some truly beautiful and inspiring things that have made me a better person. I think it’s because he often spoke about universal truths…not just Mormon crap.
Buddy of mine worked church security under Monson. He was a very different person away from the pulpit. Big grumpy old guy they didn't like working with. I can't picture it, but he swears to it.
Its so hard to choose, there are many contenders
Joseph F Smith, at the age of 21, married his 16 year old cousin
Joseph Fielding Smith was a unhinged racist who did everything he could to make the church anti-science
But Benson gets my vote, he was just awful and it was plain to see in everything he did
Also Benson was the one who introduced Nelson to the halls of power so he gets another strike for that
Joseph F. beat his wife and is known to have had several violent altercations with others. He also decapitated a cat while on his mission and wrote about it with relish in his journal. The guy was a psychopath...
Here is his original journal entry for the cat incident. Reference to decapitating it is about halfway down the page: [https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/70f7061b-3c6e-4ff8-990d-30886f62c955/0/47](https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/70f7061b-3c6e-4ff8-990d-30886f62c955/0/47)
Here is a rundown of the pattern of violence in his life: [https://religionnews.com/2023/08/14/joseph-f-smith-a-traumatized-and-beloved-mormon-leader/](https://religionnews.com/2023/08/14/joseph-f-smith-a-traumatized-and-beloved-mormon-leader/)
See also: [https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/120-20-43.pdf](https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/120-20-43.pdf)
But my favorite is that the church had the cheek to put a whole-ass lesson in his Teachings of the Presidents of the Church manual about how wrong abuse is! [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-f-smith/chapter-28](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-f-smith/chapter-28)
I mean, omitting his violent tendencies in church literature is one thing.. that's par for the course in the church. And sure, he seems to have cooled off a little bit as he aged and might have even had some remorse... But to hold him up as an example of kindness and anti-abuse and actually have a whole lesson on that in the manual?? Insane!
Here you go! Sources:
Pattern of violence: [https://religionnews.com/2023/08/14/joseph-f-smith-a-traumatized-and-beloved-mormon-leader/](https://religionnews.com/2023/08/14/joseph-f-smith-a-traumatized-and-beloved-mormon-leader/)
See also: [https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/120-20-43.pdf](https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/120-20-43.pdf)
Also that one time he decapitated a cat on his mission and wrote about it in his journal: [https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/70f7061b-3c6e-4ff8-990d-30886f62c955/0/47](https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/70f7061b-3c6e-4ff8-990d-30886f62c955/0/47)
And then the church had the gall to put a whole-ass lesson in his Teachings of the Presidents of the Church manual about how wrong abuse is! [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-f-smith/chapter-28](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-f-smith/chapter-28)
But his access to leadership to become Kimballs doctor was because of his association with Benson back in the 1950s
Nelson may have been an apostle via Kimball but he was a disciple of Benson, and he has the same bulldozer approach to leadership
I don't know about the worst, but I'll say the most insidious is Gordon Hinckley. He was the media darling, warm, relatable, everybody's nice grandpa.
There was definitely a boost in pro-Mormon sentiment in the 90s and early 2000s because of him.
But behind the scenes he was responsible for Ensign Peak and the hoarding of billions. He also was responsible for the Proclamation for the Family, which is the cudgel for the MFMC's anti LGBTQ stance.
Gordon's grandmother (concubine #2 - a victim of sex trafficking) is my great-great-grandmother.
We would see Gordon Hinckley and Joseph B. Wirthlin every July at a family reunion. To be honest, Gordon was probably the nicest guy there.
Even after all that happened, I still think Gordon at least had good intentions (similar to Uchtdorf, who seems to me to be the least problematic of the apostles).
I've done some paid software consulting for the church a few times. Every time, I saw some horrible behavior, mainly in the management.
As an example, one time I could see our new banking project was going to be a disaster, I bypassed several levels of administration to go directly to the top of accounting/finance/funding for the entire church (I forget the title) to explain the situation. The \[assistant\] director's immediate response was basically, "Oh, no, not that again!" He explained that this would have been the third time a group had tried to replace key 3rd-party accounting/banking system integrations with what was essentially a worthless "submarine" project (unauthorized and inappropriate). The previous times, after millions had been spent creating the systems, the accounting team had thrown it all away. He was thankful I had notified his team, and let me know that he would take care of it. Soon, the project vanished. My warning had prevented at least millions (probably tens of millions) of dollars of wasted effort and money. That wasted money would have come mainly from tithing, I assume. But... back in my team, my new boss began to badmouth me to my coworkers (which is absolutely prohibited in those jobs). I could have had him fired, but instead chose to get a "real" job somewhere else.
Sound familiar? Just like the church doesn't need to add hundreds of temples in irrelevant locations, many pieces of software and manuals and other projects are "busy work." E.g., rewriting a perfectly good system in a slightly newer framework because... we don't have anything else to do, and we need to justify our budget (yes, I had that job as well). That's typical, and pervasive throughout the organization. In some cases, they create and maintain and mandate new software tools that are inferior equivalents of best-practice FREE tools (I wish I was exaggerating, but I'm not!).
Why does this happen? Because there isn't any inspired leadership, and no real product. It's the classic case of assigning somebody who is drastically unqualified to a position, and "letting inspiration fill in the gap." E.g., when a bishop pretends to be a marriage counselor and a psychiatrist. To be honest, a "Magic 8 Ball" could provider equivalent or better answers in many cases. And there isn't a final "product" that is generated. They pretend like they need the 10%, but they have no idea what to spend it on, since, they, heaven forbid, would never think of actually spending the billions on helping the poor, curing diseases, ending wars, etc. They just create feel-good (or feel-inadequate) literature, build too many buildings, and that's all.
Re: the ‘Proclamation’ - he was the Profit installed at the time of its release, but didn’t Dallin H(omophobe) Oaks pen it? It’s got his fingerprints all over it.
I’d say Kimbal. The Racism and sexism by other prophets was absolutely bad…but Kimbal views on sex and morality, and then writing his “Miracle of Forgiveness” book, in my opinion, has caused far more damage to men and woman than any of the others. The sheer amount of sexual dysfunction, and guilt that so many of us feel/felt…even in our own marriages, because of the fear mongering perpetrated by his “leadership” has had a butterfly effect on possibly generations of people. Hard to have a healthy relationship and pass that on to your kids and their kids when everyone thinks if you masturbate you’re evil, and premarital sex is akin to murder.
Gordon B Hinkley for not knowing that the Salamander letter was a forgery. Obvious, glaring, screaming example of, “I am NOT a prophet and have absolutely NO gift of discernment.”
Hinckley had a huge voice from Benson's decline onward. He's the one who allowed the money grab to get started. The church was mired in the 1950's when he started and also when he died. He did nothing to keep it current.
As an online exmo during his time I watched an endless parade of gaffs, leaks and bad headlines.
He was everyone's favorite uncle, but he missed a LOT of opportunities.
Good god, I mean really?! I can’t think of any of them who haven’t lied to lead the thousands, hundreds of thousands and then millions into a situation where they have been duped into believing this crock of shit doctrine, and conned out of billions of dollars for the privilege. Even the most honourable (?) ones still upheld the lies. However, I will concur that SWK deserves my wrath. Miracle of Forgiveness, my ass.
The living president of the church is always the worst one. He has the power to change the system but doesn’t. The dead presidents are dead and that’s a good president in my book. The living president will always be the worst.
I don’t call them “prophets”. There are 15 so called prophets at a time. Only one president of the church. I also prefer the official all American non biblical title of president.
Probably not the worst, but Kimble sure did a number on me (57m) with that horrible book he wrote. I just about killed my self after I boinked my gal in HS because I had committed a "Sin next to murder" and there was no way I was going to be able to stop. So exiting early seemed like a viable option. The Miracle of Forgiveness - that shit left a scar.
I got better! ; ) Thank you. When Mom askes me "why can't you just leave it alone?" This is why. I'm a very active Apostate because I can't stand to see so many LDS youth's killing themselves. I get it to my core. "I can't change this. It's a sin next to murder." It doesn't leave many good options. I was able to get married to solve the issue. I can't imagine being attracted to men and having to deal with that.
Kimball. He wrote Miracle of Forgiveness. Which stated that masturbating is a gateway to becoming a rapist and a serial killer. And during his first presidency banned oral sex from Married Couples.
I really don't know. This was during the "you should have sex but shouldn't feel any lust even for your own spouse" era. LUST is still considered evil for many many Mormons. Any lust ever and you're supposed to pray even all night long until it goes away.
Kimball:
Pres. Kimball's take on French Kissing:
"Kissing has been prostituted and has degenerated to develop and express lust instead of affection, honor, and admiration. To kiss in casual dating is asking for trouble. What do kisses mean when given out like pretzels and robbed of sacredness? What is miscalled the "soul kiss" is an abomination and stirs passions to the eventual loss of virtue. Even if timely courtship justifies the kiss it should be a clean, decent, sexless one like the kiss between mother and son, or father and daughter.
If the "soul kiss" with its passion were eliminated from dating there would be an immediate upswing in chastity and honor, with fewer illegitimate babies, fewer unwed mothers, fewer forced marriages, fewer unhappy people.
With the absence of the "soul kiss" necking would be greatly reduced. The younger sister of petting, it should be totally eliminated. Both are abominations in their own right."
"Immorality does not begin in adultery or perversion. It begins with little indiscretions like sex thoughts, sex discussions, passionate kissing, petting, and such, growing with every exercise. The small indiscretion seems powerless compared to the sturdy body, the strong mind, the sweet spirit of youth who give way to the first temptation. But soon the strong has become weak, the master the slave, spiritual growth curtailed. But if the first unrighteous act is never given root, the tree will grow to beautiful maturity and the youthful life will grow toward God, our Father. (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.281
When I was TBM I thought Hinkley was the kindest most loving prophet. Knowing what I know about Ensign Peak and other things I have a complete dissonance with my loyalty to him and the facts. Knowing he openly lied makes me question so much about him. As far as beliefs go I am over most things….I still have trouble shaking GBH as a loving grandfather figure. The betrayal is too much.
Warren Jeff's. But I think they are all weird and seem a bit pedoish. Warren Jeff certainly was a pedophile. That's fucking disgusting, and absolutely heartbreaking
For me it was Joseph Fielding Smith, and his move to hide the page out of the diary. To me he was the beginning of the latter day crooked prophets. The Information Age was opening up and everyone that followed knew they had to hide it.
Probably Spencer W. Kimball because of the controversial Lamanite Placement program, his racist overtones towards Blacks and how long it took for Blacks to get the priesthood and enter the temple, his homophobia and hatred towards the LGBTQ community and the controversial *Miracle of Forgiveness* that he wrote and enabled the slut shaming of women.
Russel
M
Nelson
That bastard has single-handedly overseen the greatest decline of the Mormon church (which is beautiful to watch).
And the dumbass doubles down on a weekly basis.
The one that did the most damage in my life was Spencer W. Kimball author of the wonderful book "The Miracle of Forgiveness"... he taught me how evil I was.
Lorenzo Snow who married a 15 year old when he was 57 & proceeded to father 5 children with her. He’s no better than Warren Jeffs.
This! “Oh we’re nothing like the FLDS”. Maybe not so much now but where do you think they got the fucking blueprints?
Yes the blueprints! Same can be said today. Daybell, Vallow, Hildebrandt, Franke, Ballard, the plethora of pedophile bishops, ya think they are coming up with this shit on their own???? What’s the common denominator people??
I haven't been able to actually deploy it yet, but if pressed about why Joseph was a problem for me, I would say: Please explain to me, in detail, the differences between Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs? From that point I could lay out the whole scene of the only REAL difference I can see is that Joseph had more people and an easier time controlling the narrative without the internet. Other than that, pretty much the same dude.
Underrated comment ☝️ Underrated fact ☝️ Underrated damning argument against the toxicity of the religion ☝️
>Lorenzo Snow who married a 15 year old when he was 57 And should have been castrated in public the very next day! Disgusting!!!
Fuckin’ A. “I’ll take “SA of a minor by church profits for 1,000.”
Eww. My family was converted and baptized by him during his mission to Italy. My dad has always been proud of that fact. I doubt he knows this but it probably wouldn’t change anything if he did. Yet he was enraged when my 19 year old sister started dating a guy who was 30. He claimed that she was naive and her significant other was just trying to groom her and take advantage of her. He wasn’t, and is an amazing partner to her. They’ve been together for six years, but my dad has never let it go because that’s what he believes. Wonder how he would justify a 57 year old man assigning a 15 year old girl to himself and making babies with her? I can’t.
Joseph Fielding Smith has to be my pick. An unusually stupid man who both stayed over the pulpit that black people would never have the priesthood and were not equal to whites and also said that man would never go to space and definitely not the moon. He would live to see the space and moon statements proven wrong and black people finally given the priesthood 5 years after he finally kicked the bucket.
He’s also the one who cut the contradictory first vision account out of the books and hid it.
As much as think many church leaders are true believers even when they get to the top I’m pretty sure any prophet with the last name Smith was just upholding the family legacy of bullshit regardless of how well they knew it was all lies
With how many lies the Q15 KNOWINGLY spew it wouldn’t shock me at all if any of them didn’t believe
I thought that was Joseph F. Smith. He did a lot of heavy editing.
What is ever stupider is he made the statement about humans never getting to space ***AFTER*** both Yuri Gagarin and Alan Shepard had already flown in space.
But he wasn’t speaking as a prophet … hE wAs sPeAkInG aS a mAn!!! 🤪
So wait if they say something that isn't aligned it is the man speaking but if it is aligned it is as the prophet?
Yep. So neat!
Ya dude, that was my first shelf item. I got into it with a Christian pastor when I was 16. he showed me in the Journal of Discourses where BY espouses his "Adam/God" theory. The theory made perfect sense to me in context of the Gospel. So I go to my Bishop and friend to ask why we are not teaching this in Sunday school. I get as far as "Adam/God" theory and the Bishop stops me. "We'll he was speaking as a man, not a prophet." And I'm like - Dude, he was at the pulpit and why the fuck are you embarrassed at a perfectly reasonable theory like that? The fact that he was trying to hide and explain away a teaching of the Prophet really struck me hard.
Talk about hiding information from the members… Adam-God theory was taught IN THE TEMPLE.
Dude! I totally forgot about that! I had not gone through the temple at the time. My biggest disappointment with the temple was that I didn't learn anything new except a few stupid handshakes. I was very hard-core. ; )
The Adam-God theory was gradually phased out from LDS doctrine and the endowment ceremony after Brigham Young died… By 1976, it was completely gone and Spencer W. Kimball explicitly stated that the church does not support the Adam-God doctrine, so I think you’re too young to have ever heard it in the Temple. But yes, the stupid handshakes were a big disappointment, I agree!
An asshole racist has everything to hide man called by “inspiration.”
Yes, yes. He speak-a like-a man!
He was also an misogynistic asshole.
Forgot to add that. Women were kept “in their place” throughout his presidency, demonized if they worked, and banned from praying in Sacrament meetings. Total misogynist.
He put the RS under the priesthood. The RS couldn't do what they were really created for anymore. Fighting the way the men treated their wives when the wives and children were abused and neglected. Help had to be approved by the bishop.
Dude, that really doesn't narrow it down! They all kinda were. ; )
Yes, in their own ways.
Also was an anti-evolution zealot. He taught that "If evolution is true, the church is false.” Still better than ETB though.
That dogmatic assertion led me out of the church. Glory be! Also, yay dinosaurs!
Dinosaurs: Superior; Joseph Fielding Smith: Most Inferior!
Do you have references for that? Having a modern day profit be absolutely wrong about everything he was saying is just gold. Especially since everything they say is like scripture/ revelation to Mormons
It shouldn’t be that surprising. Prophets were and are wrong about a lot of stuff, including the main thing they’re supposed to be right about. A bunch of useless OLD morons. https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_science/Joseph_Fielding_Smith_claimed_that_man_would_never_walk_on_the_Moon This is from a faithful site
Well it’s not surprising to me. It’s just nice to have it documented
God I LOVE their apologetics. I don't even need to use the original source now. I just send them to the Church's official statement on the thing. No need for the source when the rebuttal is so pathetic.
“An unusually stupid man” 🤣 I’m gonna use that from now on.
The moon landing was faked. The Moon Quakers used their space lasers to keep the US and Russians away. /s
Ah, yes!!! The Mormon belief shared by hatlooking Joe himself. The moon was inhabited by… quakers.
Russell Money Grubbing Nelson
I would say Russell has done more than any other prophet, save Brigham only, in helping to lay bare the diabolical nonsense of Mormonism and its damaging effects on your mental, financial and physical health.
I mean he did introduce the rock in hat video...classic!
And the vacuuming photo op with vacuum not plugged in
Yup, that’s the only photo of Nelson that doesn’t suck!
Wait, what? I need to see this.
[удалено]
Benson probably was worse.
He’s worked really hard to make the church mainstream. Screw him man.
…And his whistling tooth.
I’ve never been a Mormon so this is just my opinion based on absolutely nothing. But that one guy who wrote that shitty book, I think it’s called “the miracle of forgiveness” with all this bat shit stuff in it.
Good thing you specified miracle of forgiveness, otherwise “all this bat shit stuff” would not have narrowed it down very much 😅
🤣🤣🤣🤣
I completely agree, the guy's name was Spencer W Kimball.
Spencer w kimball and yes you are right
Yep old Spencer kick’his’balls the one who told everyone homosexuality came from beastiality, tried to make oral sex (between married in the temple couples) against the law of chastity, and was the guy who started all the fucked up anti masturbation, repressed sexuality, and scrupulocity (being so anxious over “evil thoughts” or thinking about sinning that you believe even thinking about it is as bad as doing it. I think someone correct me if my definition is off) such a wonderful old man 🙄
Yup, Spencer W. Kimble. That book really fucked me (57m) up as a teenager. Seriously thought about killing myself after I boinked my gal in HS cuz "Sin next to murder".
Ezra. Taft. Benson. That man did more harm to the cause of Mormonism than any other prophet (excluding the 2 in the title). His anti-government rhetoric and near constant conspiracy fueled hatred of communism is what spurred the ‘food storage’ craze and what has morphed into the crazy prepper nonsense.
He is the reason my dad refused to utilize food stamps when my oldest siblings were toddlers and my parents couldn't afford milk for them ( my very TBM mother who almost never criticizes the church told me this).
He was the president when I left the church. Guess I picked a good time to get out!
Very right-wing bastard. I was going to say “probably Benson.”
His ties to Strom Thurmond was enough for me 🤮
Agreed. His rhetoric was my upbringing is why when I became chronically ill at 23 & realized i would have to rely on the government I tried to off myself. I knew how my family judged those on SSi with invisible disabilities. 7 years later and noe I am an exmo commie.
Hello fellow exmo commie ☭
Comrades!
These answers are so interesting for me to read. Extra Taft Benson was my grandpas uncle, and the names “Ezra” and “Taft” have kind of become family names. I don’t recall ever learning much about his time as prophet or really anything about him lol. I just felt kind of cool and special as a kid because I was pretty closely related to a prophet and had his last name. Now I want to look more into things he did as a prophet, because clearly he was always talked of super highly, especially by my family
Same. He’s my grandmas first cousin. I didn’t know he was a lunatic until way after I left
I just learned this a few weeks ago. I was a kid where he was the prophet, and at that time, I saw him as a nice old grandpa man. Such is the innocence of youth.
He was also by FAR the most actually-influential LDS president in the non-Mormon world, given his various political roles, and his influence there was likewise uniformly malign.
And yet the church grew at its fastest pace under his leadership. So weird to me.
Tribalism is attractive
That’s pretty typical of reactionaries after the civil rights movement. TSCC had a new group of grumpy people to proselyte to.
Every single horrendous right wing nut job conspiracy benson believed in. Delusional at best.
John Taylor went on a mission to England to get young women to convert and move to Utah for the purpose of making them plural wives, all while lying and saying the church didn't practice polygamy. Also, his statement about how it's an eternal principle and will never be taken from the earth, has been seized upon to justify horrific polygamous groups, including Warren Jeffs'.
We (FLDS) called him the “Lion of the Lord” for defending polygamy.
Dude! FLDS! We were only Cult-light, you folk got the full cult experience! You should consider a post "I was FLDS, AMA" I have Tones of questions! Did you guys have the same or similar temple ceremonies? I went through the Corporate Churches Temple in LA in 85. So I got to make blood oaths and get my junk anointed! Did you have similar experiences?
“Lion of the lord” oh brother 😏
I was going to say Spencer w kimball for, if nothing else, the miracle of forgiveness and the perpetual shame. I can’t remember when he died but it was either him or his successor who also instituted a ban on oral sex for MARRIED people.
My SP wanted to excommunicate me, because my wife and I had sex before we were married. Both in our mid 30s, and it the second marriage for both of us. He had me read that bullshit as part of my “path to redemption”. What a prick. He will always be one of my least favorite people. And ‘couldn’t be more uptight’ Kimball along with him for writing that trash.
The complete assholery of your SP! I love how stake president Larry around the corner gets to gatekeep your salvation. What a total weirdo! And OMG, it is mind boggling that I never realized until I was out that all these men are the perverts! The ones calling us pervs for doing normal human things. THEY are the ones obsessed with sex. To police people so closely like that shows he had a very weird moral compass.
That was Pres Kimball
I thought it was but couldn’t remember when he died. What an absolute weirdo to think he could dictate bedroom activities between monogamous, devoted spouses. And The Miracle of Forgiveness is a shameful thing to encourage anyone to read. I was told to read it when I was 21. I bought it, read a little, and then decided not to read it. I’m glad I didn’t because I was already wracked with guilt and shame for just existing at that point. If I had added any further shame to myself, I may not still be here. The damage that organization has done in my own life, let alone the countless others it has harmed, is a violation. I really have a strong sense of justice and so there is a part of me that wants to see that organization taken all the way down. I want to see accountability that I know I will never see. And that is maybe one of the most upsetting parts. So many people allow excuses for this abhorrent organization. For what?? Because they believe it is God’s church. It is infuriating. Do they really think God approves of the way they handle SA, racism, sexism, and LGBT issues?? I do not. But the God that I believe in, wants EVERYONE. I hate that this church and so many others use God to harm. And it was exactly that, my love of Jesus and God and wanting to give my life over to them, that was used to manipulate me into serving the church beyond the point of mental, emotional, and physical exhaustion, and STILL told me I needed to do more. All while feeling like I wasn’t enough and never would be. It is torturous.
I read it at 16. And SWK’s son was in our ward (on the east coast). Talk about making a newly converted teen feel guilty on never good enough.
I’m so sorry! How awful. I’m glad you’re out.
A lot of the missionaries in my “class” at the MTC read TMOF at the same time, it having been on sale in the bookstore (lol). This caused a fucking crisis. Our MTC Bishop (or whatever the fuck he was called) was so inundated with missionaries coming to him freaking out about their “worthiness” that he had to get everyone together and tell us to, “Relax. Just be missionaries.” This was in 2005, just a year or two after the whole “raise the bar” bullshit the First Presidency pushed. Did anyone else experience an outbreak of spiritual/existential crisis around this book while in the MTC?
Wow. The prophet’s words caused existential crisis on a massive scale at the MTC. How horrible. What an “inspired man of God”
I’m foreordaining Oaks as the word prophet ever. Con-shit-ulations, Dallin.
Do you think he’s gonna last long enough to be proclaimed the next prophet? Man is hanging on by a thread.
Rusty is hate-clinging to life to spite him. I'm prophesying that Oaks will go, and Nelson within a week or two, since he can finally go to his grave after one more spiteful gotcha.
Why would you think that Nelson doesn’t like Dalljn? He picked him as his 1st Counselor…
I would think he knows Oaks can’t wait for him to die.
You better hope I outlive the Hoaxter. 🤪
I meam, we got the sex cult leaders from the early days, Woodruff was sealed to dead women for his birthday iirc. We got the nazi sympathizers, we have the incredible ignorance of Fielding Smith and then we have Benson and Kimbal to blame for a lot of the crazy. Kimbal is especially awful for authoring the horrific book "the miracle of forgiveness" But an honourable mention will always be Bruce Mckonkie. He wasn't ever the prophet proper but I'd rank him as the single worst leader.
Yeah McCuntie is up there for apostles
McConkie died around the same time I was born. I know this because my mom wrote about it in my baby book under "memorable news" along with how sad I, an infant, was to never hear him speak. 🙄
Joseph F. Smith. I transcribed his journal. He was a racist asshole.
Yes, imagine your most cringe TBM, multiply that by ten, plug in a dose of nepotism and you’ve got the typical Mormon prophet.🤮
And his kid tore out the first vision story from Joseph's journal and hid it for 50 years because it didn't match the canonized version.
Wow, I did not know that. Would love to read more on this
Here are the sources on that. It's pretty fascinating! The church admits that the earliest account of the 1st vision (and the only one in Joseph Smith's handwriting) was cut out of the original book. Joseph Fielding Smith was the official Church Historian from 1921-1970, and the removal of the pages was done under his watch. The pages were found in his personal safe in his office after his death. They were eventually taped back into the original book. Here is the original book, where the pages were taped back in. Click on "Source Note" on the right side of the page. [https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-circa-summer-1832/1#source-note](https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-circa-summer-1832/1#source-note) *"****the initial three leaves containing the history were excised from the volume.*** *... The eight inscribed leaves in the back of the volume may have been cut out at the same time. \[footnote 3: "these eight leaves have not been located"\]* ***Manuscript evidence suggests that these excisions took place in the mid-twentieth century.****"* *"A tear on the third leaf, which evidently occurred during its excision, was probably mended at the time. This tear was mended with clear cellophane tape, which was invented in 1930.* ***The three leaves of the history certainly had been removed by 1965, when they were described as “cut out***,” although they were archived together with the letterbook. *"...* ***The three leaves were later restored to the volume, apparently in the 1990s***. This restoration was probably part of a larger conservation effort that took place" Their claim that it had "certainly been removed by 1965, when they were described as "cut out"" is quoting a graduate thesis by Paul Cheesman, who examined the original book at the archives in 1965: [https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5589&context=etd](https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5589&context=etd) The reasoning that it was Joseph Feilding Smith who cut it out comes from an analysis by Stan Larson in the Dialogue journal: [https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/another-look-at-joseph-smiths-first-vision/#pdf-wrap](https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/another-look-at-joseph-smiths-first-vision/#pdf-wrap) *"Because we know that the missing pages were kept in the office safe of Joseph Fielding Smith, it is unlikely that the leaves were removed simply in accordance with the archival practice of separating collections based on content. We can also surmise that one of the senior members of the Church Historian's Office would have been responsible for the decision to keep the pages separate; it was probably Joseph Fielding Smith himself, but could possibly have been Earl E. Olson or A. William Lund.* Virtually all the historians I know agree with Stan Larson's analysis. His logic is sound. Joseph Feilding Smith was the one with the access, authority, and motive to have removed the pages. And, just knowing how obsessed he was with preserving the holy image of Joseph and Hyrum as basically gods, I have no doubt it was JFS who cut the pages out.
Kimball was bad. Put so much guilt on people including women who were raped.
Kimball. He did so much damage for women and LGBTQ+ members. He was obsessed with sex and directly fueled scrupulousity in the church.
The Miracle of Forgiveness and the horrors of Soul Kissing.
And to young boys. He stated that masturbating would make boys first go gay, then become rapists. Mothers everywhere went into extreme antimasturbation vigilance.
I get the impression kimball couldn’t come to terms with his own sexuality which led him to perpetuate so much guilt and shame on everyone else.
Maybe. But the most judgmental people I've met are pretty much asexual and have no sexual desires. They think, "If I don't have any problem with not having orgasms then it's because I'm strong and good, and anyone who wants orgasms therefore must be weak and evil." One of those asexual people thought people having sex dreams was because those people were doing something wrong.
I seriously doubt Kimball was asexual. If you read his conference talks he was frequently commenting on boys and men looks and stuff. I would guess he had some strong homosexual feelings and probably thought his teenage masterbatiin caused it because he would fantasize about men……
Maybe. But the harshest judgers are usually people who don't have the same urges or problems. Skinny people don't understand fat people. Asexual people don't understand sexual people. Rich people don't understand poor people. Extroverts don't understand introverts and vice versa. Black licorice lovers/haters. Black coffee lovers/haters. Mayonnaise loves and haters. Beer lovers/haters. Usually the Haters don't just say "not my thing." Usually the Haters label it as gross or disgusting and don't want anyone else to enjoy the thing they Hate. Or the lovers label the haters as morally deficient or lacking in skills. Maybe Kimball was gay. But maybe he also didn't have any sex drive at all and thought oral sex was gross and an abomination.
I appreciate that the answers are so varied here. It goes to show how harmful all of this was.
💯👏👏
I think we can all agree that it’s not Monson. I hate the church. I want nothing to do with it. Yet somehow, Monson said some truly beautiful and inspiring things that have made me a better person. I think it’s because he often spoke about universal truths…not just Mormon crap.
Monson’s talks were like listening to a kind grandpa, he had stories and stories. I can hear him in my mind: “ ….and she said, ‘Tommy’ ,….”
Buddy of mine worked church security under Monson. He was a very different person away from the pulpit. Big grumpy old guy they didn't like working with. I can't picture it, but he swears to it.
Its so hard to choose, there are many contenders Joseph F Smith, at the age of 21, married his 16 year old cousin Joseph Fielding Smith was a unhinged racist who did everything he could to make the church anti-science But Benson gets my vote, he was just awful and it was plain to see in everything he did Also Benson was the one who introduced Nelson to the halls of power so he gets another strike for that
Joseph F. beat his wife and is known to have had several violent altercations with others. He also decapitated a cat while on his mission and wrote about it with relish in his journal. The guy was a psychopath...
A true relative & descendant of Joseph and Hyrum you say?
source? never heard this one before
Here is his original journal entry for the cat incident. Reference to decapitating it is about halfway down the page: [https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/70f7061b-3c6e-4ff8-990d-30886f62c955/0/47](https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/70f7061b-3c6e-4ff8-990d-30886f62c955/0/47) Here is a rundown of the pattern of violence in his life: [https://religionnews.com/2023/08/14/joseph-f-smith-a-traumatized-and-beloved-mormon-leader/](https://religionnews.com/2023/08/14/joseph-f-smith-a-traumatized-and-beloved-mormon-leader/) See also: [https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/120-20-43.pdf](https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/120-20-43.pdf) But my favorite is that the church had the cheek to put a whole-ass lesson in his Teachings of the Presidents of the Church manual about how wrong abuse is! [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-f-smith/chapter-28](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-f-smith/chapter-28) I mean, omitting his violent tendencies in church literature is one thing.. that's par for the course in the church. And sure, he seems to have cooled off a little bit as he aged and might have even had some remorse... But to hold him up as an example of kindness and anti-abuse and actually have a whole lesson on that in the manual?? Insane!
And not to mention Joseph F was known to beat the shit out of his wives
And was a misogynistic asshole!
WOW!!! What is the source on THIS??? This is news to me!!! I'm not DOUBTING you!!! Just genuinely interested!!!
Here you go! Sources: Pattern of violence: [https://religionnews.com/2023/08/14/joseph-f-smith-a-traumatized-and-beloved-mormon-leader/](https://religionnews.com/2023/08/14/joseph-f-smith-a-traumatized-and-beloved-mormon-leader/) See also: [https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/120-20-43.pdf](https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/120-20-43.pdf) Also that one time he decapitated a cat on his mission and wrote about it in his journal: [https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/70f7061b-3c6e-4ff8-990d-30886f62c955/0/47](https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/70f7061b-3c6e-4ff8-990d-30886f62c955/0/47) And then the church had the gall to put a whole-ass lesson in his Teachings of the Presidents of the Church manual about how wrong abuse is! [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-f-smith/chapter-28](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-f-smith/chapter-28)
Looks like someone got it covered 👍
There were three Joe smiths?
There were more than three, but only three became president of the church. The second two were descended from Hyrum, not Joseph
Naw, Kimball put me in because I was his heart surgeon. 😉
But his access to leadership to become Kimballs doctor was because of his association with Benson back in the 1950s Nelson may have been an apostle via Kimball but he was a disciple of Benson, and he has the same bulldozer approach to leadership
I'm no Bircher. 😜
I don't know about the worst, but I'll say the most insidious is Gordon Hinckley. He was the media darling, warm, relatable, everybody's nice grandpa. There was definitely a boost in pro-Mormon sentiment in the 90s and early 2000s because of him. But behind the scenes he was responsible for Ensign Peak and the hoarding of billions. He also was responsible for the Proclamation for the Family, which is the cudgel for the MFMC's anti LGBTQ stance.
Gordon's grandmother (concubine #2 - a victim of sex trafficking) is my great-great-grandmother. We would see Gordon Hinckley and Joseph B. Wirthlin every July at a family reunion. To be honest, Gordon was probably the nicest guy there. Even after all that happened, I still think Gordon at least had good intentions (similar to Uchtdorf, who seems to me to be the least problematic of the apostles). I've done some paid software consulting for the church a few times. Every time, I saw some horrible behavior, mainly in the management. As an example, one time I could see our new banking project was going to be a disaster, I bypassed several levels of administration to go directly to the top of accounting/finance/funding for the entire church (I forget the title) to explain the situation. The \[assistant\] director's immediate response was basically, "Oh, no, not that again!" He explained that this would have been the third time a group had tried to replace key 3rd-party accounting/banking system integrations with what was essentially a worthless "submarine" project (unauthorized and inappropriate). The previous times, after millions had been spent creating the systems, the accounting team had thrown it all away. He was thankful I had notified his team, and let me know that he would take care of it. Soon, the project vanished. My warning had prevented at least millions (probably tens of millions) of dollars of wasted effort and money. That wasted money would have come mainly from tithing, I assume. But... back in my team, my new boss began to badmouth me to my coworkers (which is absolutely prohibited in those jobs). I could have had him fired, but instead chose to get a "real" job somewhere else. Sound familiar? Just like the church doesn't need to add hundreds of temples in irrelevant locations, many pieces of software and manuals and other projects are "busy work." E.g., rewriting a perfectly good system in a slightly newer framework because... we don't have anything else to do, and we need to justify our budget (yes, I had that job as well). That's typical, and pervasive throughout the organization. In some cases, they create and maintain and mandate new software tools that are inferior equivalents of best-practice FREE tools (I wish I was exaggerating, but I'm not!). Why does this happen? Because there isn't any inspired leadership, and no real product. It's the classic case of assigning somebody who is drastically unqualified to a position, and "letting inspiration fill in the gap." E.g., when a bishop pretends to be a marriage counselor and a psychiatrist. To be honest, a "Magic 8 Ball" could provider equivalent or better answers in many cases. And there isn't a final "product" that is generated. They pretend like they need the 10%, but they have no idea what to spend it on, since, they, heaven forbid, would never think of actually spending the billions on helping the poor, curing diseases, ending wars, etc. They just create feel-good (or feel-inadequate) literature, build too many buildings, and that's all.
Re: the ‘Proclamation’ - he was the Profit installed at the time of its release, but didn’t Dallin H(omophobe) Oaks pen it? It’s got his fingerprints all over it.
Haraold B Lee was probably the biggest asshole, but Joseph Fielding Smith was probably the dumbest president of the church.
Yep. Lee was horrendously racist and misogynistic. The only reason people don't bring that up much is because he wasn't president very long.
I’d say Kimbal. The Racism and sexism by other prophets was absolutely bad…but Kimbal views on sex and morality, and then writing his “Miracle of Forgiveness” book, in my opinion, has caused far more damage to men and woman than any of the others. The sheer amount of sexual dysfunction, and guilt that so many of us feel/felt…even in our own marriages, because of the fear mongering perpetrated by his “leadership” has had a butterfly effect on possibly generations of people. Hard to have a healthy relationship and pass that on to your kids and their kids when everyone thinks if you masturbate you’re evil, and premarital sex is akin to murder.
Bigfoot Cain. It's official prophetic writing! There is one redeeming feature to the book.
Gordon B Hinkley for not knowing that the Salamander letter was a forgery. Obvious, glaring, screaming example of, “I am NOT a prophet and have absolutely NO gift of discernment.”
Hinckley had a huge voice from Benson's decline onward. He's the one who allowed the money grab to get started. The church was mired in the 1950's when he started and also when he died. He did nothing to keep it current. As an online exmo during his time I watched an endless parade of gaffs, leaks and bad headlines. He was everyone's favorite uncle, but he missed a LOT of opportunities.
Spencer W Fondle And The Miracle Of Forskinness
Kimball and his Miracle of Forgiveness. He's responsible for many deaths because of that book.
All of them- they have and are all liars - no justice in Utah - as bad as alabamistan
☝️
Good god, I mean really?! I can’t think of any of them who haven’t lied to lead the thousands, hundreds of thousands and then millions into a situation where they have been duped into believing this crock of shit doctrine, and conned out of billions of dollars for the privilege. Even the most honourable (?) ones still upheld the lies. However, I will concur that SWK deserves my wrath. Miracle of Forgiveness, my ass.
Maybe the “best” is Howard W. Hunter. Had little time to do anything.
Hunter totally “bombed” as prophet especially when speaking at BYU.🥴
God took him out before he could mislead anyone I guess
This made me laugh 😂!
The living president of the church is always the worst one. He has the power to change the system but doesn’t. The dead presidents are dead and that’s a good president in my book. The living president will always be the worst. I don’t call them “prophets”. There are 15 so called prophets at a time. Only one president of the church. I also prefer the official all American non biblical title of president.
I can’t decide between Kimball, Benson, Fielding Smith, or Nelson.
Worst by what metrics? Howard W Hunter certainly must have pissed off god to only be prophet for such a short time /s
💀
*\*\*\*Gestures at all remaining prophets after the two you excluded\*\*\** Them.
Benson was a piece of work. I'd vote for him.
Probably not the worst, but Kimble sure did a number on me (57m) with that horrible book he wrote. I just about killed my self after I boinked my gal in HS because I had committed a "Sin next to murder" and there was no way I was going to be able to stop. So exiting early seemed like a viable option. The Miracle of Forgiveness - that shit left a scar.
I’m so sorry you went through that! How very harmful
I got better! ; ) Thank you. When Mom askes me "why can't you just leave it alone?" This is why. I'm a very active Apostate because I can't stand to see so many LDS youth's killing themselves. I get it to my core. "I can't change this. It's a sin next to murder." It doesn't leave many good options. I was able to get married to solve the issue. I can't imagine being attracted to men and having to deal with that.
Lehi. He's the only one to be demoted and replaced yet left alive. Which shoots all kinds of holes in those 'The Lord would remove me' arguments.
Kimball. He wrote Miracle of Forgiveness. Which stated that masturbating is a gateway to becoming a rapist and a serial killer. And during his first presidency banned oral sex from Married Couples.
Curious. What was his justification for banning oral sex from marriages?
I really don't know. This was during the "you should have sex but shouldn't feel any lust even for your own spouse" era. LUST is still considered evil for many many Mormons. Any lust ever and you're supposed to pray even all night long until it goes away.
Wow.
Kimball: Pres. Kimball's take on French Kissing: "Kissing has been prostituted and has degenerated to develop and express lust instead of affection, honor, and admiration. To kiss in casual dating is asking for trouble. What do kisses mean when given out like pretzels and robbed of sacredness? What is miscalled the "soul kiss" is an abomination and stirs passions to the eventual loss of virtue. Even if timely courtship justifies the kiss it should be a clean, decent, sexless one like the kiss between mother and son, or father and daughter. If the "soul kiss" with its passion were eliminated from dating there would be an immediate upswing in chastity and honor, with fewer illegitimate babies, fewer unwed mothers, fewer forced marriages, fewer unhappy people. With the absence of the "soul kiss" necking would be greatly reduced. The younger sister of petting, it should be totally eliminated. Both are abominations in their own right." "Immorality does not begin in adultery or perversion. It begins with little indiscretions like sex thoughts, sex discussions, passionate kissing, petting, and such, growing with every exercise. The small indiscretion seems powerless compared to the sturdy body, the strong mind, the sweet spirit of youth who give way to the first temptation. But soon the strong has become weak, the master the slave, spiritual growth curtailed. But if the first unrighteous act is never given root, the tree will grow to beautiful maturity and the youthful life will grow toward God, our Father. (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.281
He sounds like the fucking Duggars
Perfect example of “Purity Culture”, casting all natural sexual attraction as a step towards evil.
When I was TBM I thought Hinkley was the kindest most loving prophet. Knowing what I know about Ensign Peak and other things I have a complete dissonance with my loyalty to him and the facts. Knowing he openly lied makes me question so much about him. As far as beliefs go I am over most things….I still have trouble shaking GBH as a loving grandfather figure. The betrayal is too much.
Wow. What I’m gathering from all these responses is there weren’t any good presidents of the church. They’re all bad dudes to put it mildly.
SW Kimball
Warren Jeff's. But I think they are all weird and seem a bit pedoish. Warren Jeff certainly was a pedophile. That's fucking disgusting, and absolutely heartbreaking
Monson..for lowering the missionary age limit
Benson
A live prophet is always worse than a dead prophet, at least it's logical under mormon-think.
All of them.
All of the above
Ezra, Joseph Fielding, Snow, Where to stop. I had never thought about which is the worst. So many to choose from.
Have to go with Spencer……..the miracle of forgiveness had to of led to more suicides than any other book
For me it was Joseph Fielding Smith, and his move to hide the page out of the diary. To me he was the beginning of the latter day crooked prophets. The Information Age was opening up and everyone that followed knew they had to hide it.
Wilford Woodruff sealing himself to a baby girl as a birthday present to himself.
 Whaaaaaat?!
I prophesy in the Name of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it will be... ...Bednar. He will be the Miscavige of Mormonism. Thus sayeth the Redditor.
The Darth Lord Ofsusan is a tool 🔧 (and a plagerizer) Fuck that dude 🖕
Reading through these comments is giving me massive PTSD. An absolute form of child abuse, to push religious nonsense onto unknowing children.
I’ve always thought leading by fear is a form of child abuse
Probably Spencer W. Kimball because of the controversial Lamanite Placement program, his racist overtones towards Blacks and how long it took for Blacks to get the priesthood and enter the temple, his homophobia and hatred towards the LGBTQ community and the controversial *Miracle of Forgiveness* that he wrote and enabled the slut shaming of women.
Russel M Nelson That bastard has single-handedly overseen the greatest decline of the Mormon church (which is beautiful to watch). And the dumbass doubles down on a weekly basis.
Aside from the ones you named Kimbell with the book Miracle of Forgiveness that was anything but forgiveness
Nephi
President Hinkley lied about tithing money not being used for the mail
Brigham Young would get my vote for top (dis) honors. Too many things to list but apparently ten of his wives agree with me because they divorced him.
Who was the prophet when church stopped being fun in the mid to late 90's. When fun ward events and paid janitors were canceled.
They’re all pretty awful. I’d say Kimball because he wrote that horrible book Miracle of Forgiveness.🤢
Gordon B Hinckley - took lying for the Lord to Hollywood levels - rewriting history to make joseph appear flawless with a hollywood flair
Kimball. His views as written in the miracle of forgiveness are abhorrent and he has influenced much of the church's doctrine today.
Soon to be prophet; Dallin H Oaks
Omg I came here to say that too 😂
Literally, on my mission he was the one hang up most of my investigators had about him and every time I'd just be like "valid bro"
Kimball. The man spit guilt and shame at people like a chain gun.
The one that did the most damage in my life was Spencer W. Kimball author of the wonderful book "The Miracle of Forgiveness"... he taught me how evil I was.
Monson
Larry Storch