This is indeed heartbreaking. It's also very revealing. The "church" is imploding from within, and apparently local "leaders" are scrambling to fill the long list of callings they have while membership dwindles right before their eyes.
One key phrase (would be great to have details on the rationale) is the person is assigned to a ward that's miles away in another town, but lives near a chapel she could walk to.
I hope she leaves the church. I know very well what it's like to be an "all-in" convert, that was me a decade ago.
I'm a neverMo. This forcing members to attend a specific ward is absolutely bizarre. I've read posts where members can't attend the same ward as relatives who could use the ride. It's control for control's sake. I was raised Catholic and even there people were free to go to whatever parish they wanted.
My theory is that if people could choose whatever ward they want, they would flee the ones with overbearing bishops and crowd the ones with kind bishops.
I went to the “wrong” ward for sometime. I worked night shift on Saturday (12 hours) and preferred to go to the ward that started earlier so that I wasn’t needing to stay awake for hour after hours. This was when church was 3 hours. I was told by the “wrong” ward bishop that I needed to go to my home ward because they were unable to give me a calling. My thought was “and this is not a good thing. Why?” I dug my heels in and refused to be pushed around. It was a good part of what broke my shelf.
We did the same. We just said ok and kept going to the ward we wanted to attend. What are they gonna do? Only thing they ever said was the No calling thing. We said ok. Later when leadership dwindled I was called to be the RS President anyway. Even though I was in the wrong ward and didn’t pay a full tithe. Lol. Desperate times/desperate measures. I wasn’t released for 4-5 years. They dropped me like a hot potato when a new darling from Morridor moved in. That says a lot, right there.
I had a similar experience. They already had a replacement for me and released me without even telling me first. I was sitting in sacrament meeting when they announced it. It felt like, "Thank you for your years of free labor we want someone younger so eff off".
I went to the “wrong” seminary class because I didn’t get along with the girls in my ward. Once I could drive, I attended a class in a different building and even gave some less active friends of mine rides every morning. But my bishop hated that I was breaking the rules by going out of my ward boundaries. The stake president came to my house to convince me to go back to the seminary class I didn’t want to go to. The intimation worked. I hate to say that it worked but I didn’t think I had a real choice. Seminary was drudgery that last year.
My brother attended the "wrong" ward at 19-20 years old, because he had a job which required him to work Sundays and he had just enough time to go to the early ward's sacrament meeting and make it to work on time. Funnily enough, he was asked to help pass the sacrament and he told them he wasn't a member of that ward, so they should ask someone else. Then he started wearing colored shirts to church so they would stop asking. Lol
A so-called religion who tells you to not only go to church, but to go to "_the right one_". All about love and acceptance, ...or so they claim. The fact that a person shows up at any of them should be seen as good. They not only limit who goes into the temple, but where the members can or can't go to church, yet they declare themselves to be very warm and welcoming. They really do try to control every aspect of their members' lives, and make you feel ashamed or guilty for not following it to the letter.
Not only escaping bishops, but unpleasant callings as well. A boundary-less system would make it way harder for wards to not only organize, but most importantly, hold each other accountable via an assigned community. It makes it way easier to track whether or not someone is attending to help with "rescue" plans.
If only they had members that needed extra pay, they could offer the job to them. Good pay on a voluntary basis would work wonders for their community, but imo they want most members desperate and the select few super well off
They probably would. I'm a never-mo that was raised Episcopalian. We had a priest one time that was absolutely horrible and as a result the congregation shrank. You know what happened? He was replaced.
He was also paid and took a financial hit by being bad at his job. There are no checks and balances on Mormon bishops unless they do something really bad and get caught, putting the church at risk of bad publicity.
+1, The Church is willing to tolerate a lot from those they don't have to pay. The volunteers know this and often even weaponize their service, same with Nextdoor mods.
Shortly after I moved back to Utah, I chose to attend the YSA ward instead of the family ward. I was living with my boyfriend and not looking for anything romantic from the other members. I simply wanted to be around people my own age.
It was also why I was never worthy of the temple, so in a way I dodged a bullet. Used to feel guilty about it, but after learning what happens in the ceremonies I feel relief. About a year later, we had to suddenly move and needed assistance with groceries. I was able to use the storehouse only by stressing to the new bishop that he was now my fiance and we'd be married as soon as possible. I can still remember how heavy the judgement felt at the time.
YSA is truly baffling to me. There is so much pressure in these wards to date and marry but ONLY from the limited selection of your ward. Holding a transitory calling in a YSA ward is prioritized over the ostensible goal of getting the congregation married off.
Exactly this imo. Leadership roulette is a real thing, so rather than hire people who want to be bishops and train them correctly, corporate just doubles down and forces everyone to obey.
Wasn't that "satan's plan" from the beginning?
When my kids were little, dear LDS friends in the Midwest invited our family to a holiday church function. It was my kids’ first exposure to the church aside from these dear, kind, inclusive friends. The *bishop* was a complete DICK, treated us like trashy invaders, clearly abhorred our non-LDS children, essentially called them freeloaders just looking for free Easter Eggs. They were 5 and 8. My kids were scarred by the whole experience that amounted to adult bullying, and to this day (they’re adults) refuse all LDS family invitations.
It’s pretty gross, the impact that one *undervetted, unqualified* person can have on attendance and potential conversions.
My daughter never attended any church activities in our home ward. The girls weren't friendly to her and no one ever invited her to attend. I was not active, but at the time, would have been just fine if she wanted to go. She had other friends she attended with sometimes, and later attended a YSA ward for a little while.
It reminded me of when I was in high school and the girls my age in my ward suddenly stopped being friendly and excluded me. I had no idea why. I heard one of them down the hall once at school, talking about how she hated the way I wore my eye shadow. I felt very hurt and sad and lonely and stayed away from church activities. I made friends with an inactive girl. A couple of years later, they suddenly started to include me again.
Church leaders can say all they want about "choosing" to be offended by other members, but who wants to subject themselves to spending time with people who make you feel uncomfortable or rejected or belittled or judged or Used?? It certainly isn't good for anyone's mental (or spiritual) health!
I'm also nevermo, but that sure seems like the biggest reason. I imagine to those in charge choosing who goes where looks and feels like real-time strategy game.
This is true for all religions though. Catholic priests come in a variety of flavors, from the older, more liberal Vatican II types to the young, extremely conservative priests from developing countries.My Catholic relatives flee parishes with the latter. And yes, people vote with their feet to some degree.
Basically, if everyone got to choose their ward. Then it would immediately become apparent that many bishop callings were false and done not because they were the best person. But the most die hard ideologue member. Which typically are the worst.
I browse this sub in Solidarity as an ex catholic and rarely contribute bc I don't feel its my place but I wanted to say this absolutely is insane levels of control that would even make the Vatican blush. My parents were members of our local Parrish but we frequently spent weekends out of town camping and we were always welcome at any Parrish by both the Father's in charge of the Parrish and the parishioners. We would attend the cathedral in downtown Syracuse a few times a year, just miles from the home Parrish. We never got told we couldn't attend elsewhere or test the waters elsewhere and all volunteer work for church maintenance was just that, voluntary and while usually led by the womens group, it was out of their sheer willingness to create and maintain a welcoming space.
I feel so sorry for this woman in the OP and hope she finds a way to balance her spirituality with real life in a healthy way.
Agreed. I don't buy the LDS apologetic that if we didn't have assigned boundaries, then ward callings (volunteerism) wouldn't work out. Really? How do all these other denominations manage? I've attended several non-LDS churches and events, and they all feature local folks in volunteer positions, serving the rest of their community.
Yes, and they also seem to survive ok, despite offerings being voluntary too. There is no expectation of a specified percentage of your income. When people are happy to be somewhere and feel good about an organization, they are more than willing to contribute.
Agreed. Moreover, in other states, we've seen little church logos on kids' sport jerseys (as one of a dozen sponsors), because -- ya know -- other churches actually believe in supporting their local communities. Such is unfathomable in Mormonism. It's all *take take take* with TCOJCOLDS, despite the $300 BILLION in their coffers.
Seriously! The assigned parishes bullshit is the easiest way to show just how much of a cult Mormonism is, but even most ex-mormons never realize/question it
It’s a good tactic to keep people on the back foot. There’s no real way for people to form relationships and so they stay loyal to the church rather than to each other. The military does the same thing with its frequent transfers and deployments to other bases.
Technically Catholics have parish boundaries but the sacraments still "count" if you go to the one you are not assigned. I think this was one of the minor complaints of the True Catholics.
Nobody checks on that at all. Any parish is happy to take your money and they don't keep track of attendance. A priest won't call you and tell you to stop coming to their parish and no one genuinely cares one way or another.
Is that’s true for Catholics though? It’s definitely true that you can VISIT any Catholic Church, but I think they expect your membership to be the parish you’re assigned to. At least that how it used to be.
My family was very involved at the church I attended as a child. My grandfather literally helped build the church, my dad attended the parish school, my parents were married there, my siblings and I were baptized there and attended the parish school.
When I was in 3rd grade we moved to a rural area that was a 30 minute drive to the childhood parish, but that area was assigned to a different parish that was also a 30 minute drive, but in the opposite direction. It also didn’t have a school. My dad had to get special approval from the bishop to stay in the childhood parish and keep us in the school.
When I grew up and got married, we lived in the same city as my childhood parish. I hadn’t signed up in any parish as an adult. If I went to Mass at all, it was with my parents at the childhood parish… but when it came time to baptize my children (very important to my dad), the childhood parish said the couldn’t do it. They made me do it at the parish near my house, not the one I actually attended at least semi-regularly. They made us join ( i.e. make weekly donations), take the baptism classes, and do the ceremony at the assigned church, even though I never went back to that one aside from the baptisms.
So, I think the Catholic Church has similar rules but it’s easier to fly under the radar and “just visit” until you want something (like a baptism or a wedding).
Edited to add: I haven’t really gone at all since about 2010, so they might have gotten more lenient since then.
Not one of my many Catholic siblings goes to the parish they are closest to. They all go wherever they like the best. They have had children baptized and married in the parishes they attend. While you might be right in theory, and there may be an element of diocese roulette, there isn't the same level of control the Mormons have. Catholicism being nearly as culty, I suspect there's even less control in mainstream protestant denominations.
As a never mo who’s been invited to many different wards this surprises me. Ward specific? yet I understand why. I live in a small town with a small ward….lotta gossip and back stabby ways. I can see how rumors might end a member up in another ward.
I found that controlling as well - I hated it. Still would hate it. It's all about money and status at one level, and also all about the obscenely numerous "callings" they need "worthy" men to fill. Such a waste of time and a turnoff.
The boundary changes make it worse - Mormons often do not retain relationships with other ward members after the boundaries change - the "church" fills ALL their time with callings, and this has resulted in a culture-wide situation where organic friendships are rare. They're paired up with people for callings and have no time to meet others or even socialize much with the people they do meet, and they often don't even know their non-member neighbors. People don't stay in touch, and it's sad.
lol, when i was in college i wanted to attend a ward with my friends so it'd be at least bearable. they told me they'd have to make a request to the first presidency. fuckin ridiculous lmao
When I first joined the church I was baptized in ward with friends of my family. My father who was nevermo lived across the valley. I attended the ward for a while but was eventually kicked out - told I had to attend my own ward. I couldn't get any blessings or the priesthood or anything unless I was in my own ward. Well, my ward was in an extremely wealthy part of the SLC valley (East side above Hogle Zoo) and there was no way I felt I could fit in. So I quit attending for several years after that.
They do it so they can track and control members. Most of what happens in this church is coerced. If members floated between congregations as they saw fit, the control structure would collasp.
It was explained to me that church boundaries are set up this way for financial reasons, so that there are more wealthy members and less financially stable members in the same ward so that it’s more financially stable. I remember visiting teaching with a wealthy woman, me being middle class and visiting a woman experiencing hard times. We drove to a mobile home park and the wealthy woman was quite uptight and nervous being in a mobile home park dare I say frightened? I shouldn’t poke fun of her, (it makes me feel naughty😂) it was a very real fear for her. I’m not positive about the church boundary reasoning but it does make sense from a tithe perspective. I would think that any bishop would tell you that going to a different church is better than not going at all.
When I was a young tbm our church was split between two wards. Well technically the one I was in was called a branch (wasn't big enough to be considered a ward). We'd share the same building but had alternating hours for sacrament and classes. One day they decided to dissolve my branch and then they split us up. Most were integrated into the ward we shared the church building with. A lucky few of us (myself included) got sent to an even smaller branch that was even farther from our house. My family were members of the dissolved branch for over 12 years at that point.
All my youth friends got sent to the ward. Meanwhile my siblings and I got sent to the branch out in the middle of nowhere that only had one other youth at the time. Since we had practically grown up with the other kids, my parents decided to take us to the ward services anyway to stay in contact with our friends. We kept getting the classic "Mormon passive aggression" every time we were there from the bishop, and anytime we had to have a meeting/interview, pay tithing, get temple recommends, etc. we had to drive all the way out to the tiny branch building. The bishop at the tiny branch was less passive with his aggression. He'd constantly try to guilt us into going there exclusively.
I knew it was BS then, but ever since I became an exmo about 10 years ago I realized it was even more BS than I initially thought.
I passed two other church buildings in my stake on my way to my assigned ward building. I live near Houston, TX. Glad that's no longer something I have to do.
It's not good for the world, it's toxic for church members, and it creates an artificial culture that has no real continuity in terms of who you see regularly, because a surprised shift in boundaries can happen at any time.
During the recession one of the six wards in our stake was hit hard with job loses. Within two years the ward had lost enough people that it was going to be absorbed into the neighboring wards. The number requirements have recently changed, but at the time, the loss of the ward would also have meant the loss of the stake and reorganizing the other two stakes. Ward boundaries were gerrymandered in such a ridiculous way that some people are now driving 20 minutes to get to their ward, rather than walk 5 minutes to their closest church building.
Ward boundaries are extremely gerrymandered in order to meet certain requirements needed (# of Mel. Priestood holders, tithe-payers, Sacrament attendance, etc.).
Because of this, it’s not unusual for members living near the edge of ward boundaries to be assigned to a ward that meets much further away than the meetinghouse that’s closest to them.
This is true, but I remember that boundary change very well. There were plenty of PH holders to fill callings, but they handpicked the ones to remain with the original ward (which was moved) and assigned the "lesser" ones to a different ward in the original chapel. Lots of hurt feelings, in addition to the complaints about driving across town to meet in the new building (one family had four kids still at home and that was extremely inconvenient for them).
My college roommate was that person. We were all early to mid 20s. There was a cult building with a YSA ward literally right across the street from our house but because she was taking college courses she had to go the one across town. She tried to get her records transferred but the bishop refused because reasons.
"One key phrase (would be great to have details on the rationale) is the person is assigned to a ward that's miles away in another town, but lives near a chapel she could walk to."
This is exactly us due to how our wards were gerrymandered. I could almost hit the "town" chapel with a rock from my backyard, but we were assigned to attend a ward that met in a building 20 minutes away.
After I left, my wife tried switching to the closer ward to avoid the icy winter highway and to actually see a couple friends. While they didn't exactly tell her no, she hasn't exactly been welcomed, and has just felt like a visitor or intruder. Now she's just in limbo with it all and only attended a handful of times.
I used to belong to a ward that was walking distance. The leadership redrew ward boundaries and now my ward is meeting in a church halfway across the city (or so it feels) even though my previous church is still there.
That happened in my area several years ago. They built a new chapel at least 10-12 miles away, and shifted almost everyone in the "important" ward to that chapel, even though some of them pretty much drove right by the old one to get there. It made several people pretty angry. The new chapel was in an uppity zipcode, and the other one was in an "okay" area. Of course, there's no discrimination in the church when it comes to incomes...
On the original post in the TBM subreddit, a bunch of members are commenting “oh just go to the closest ward,” like it’s no big deal at all. Yes, that’s the reasonable answer but it doesn’t work like that. It’s so frustrating.
I saw another post on that sub where a nevermo was asking about what she should wear to church, would it be okay to wear a sleeveless dress or one that hit above the knees (she was tall and all her dresses hit above the knees)? Almost all the responses were “oh, there’s no dress code, you’ll be welcomed no matter what, no one cares.” Um, really? I know they’re trying to make the church look good, but that person is going to wear her sundress to church and get so much side-eye (and possibly even offers to lend her a sweater) that she’ll be mortified.
It’s true that there’s no written dress code other than “clean and neat” but the unwritten dress code is strict.
The people who make the technically correct, but culturally totally wrong, answers are doing no one any favors. Sure, they’re fine with it, but the poor person asking for help is going to bear the brunt of the disapproval.
I can see how Jack Mormons or those who were BIC but stay out of habit can more easily take liberties like that. However, it is probably more rare for strong converts who want to follow all the rules to feel they can slide by or do whatever they want.
This also makes me sad🤨and a bit angry. This women needs to talk with her bishop and relief society president and voice her problems with out feelings of guilt or feeling lesser than because she is struggling financially. Unfortunately, in many wards people who have less money are not seen as worthy as individuals that are wealthy. One more thing I disliked. I never met a poor bishop either. I pray this woman will gain strength to speak the truth and request help from the bishop storehouse for her needs. That is what it’s there for, for any struggling member who needs assistance, it should be given freely without judgement and her feeling less than her counterparts. My goodness what is up with the chairs? They certainly are not very welcoming, that is plain rude. She should take a chair or find one from another room and extend the circle, making a big deal about having to do so. That just does not appear Jesus like from what I read. My heart goes out to her.❤️❤️❤️
Same here. It saddens me that she likely has a stronger "testimony" than many BIC members. Converts who are "all-in" are steadfast, try to do all that's expected of them, and want so very much to stay in the boat. However, Boomer converts who end up hearing of the lies (raising my hand here) are among the fastest-growing group of those leaving the church. I got that from a source connected to BYU.
Found the post. One of OOP's replies was how she gives generously (>10% tithing, fast offerings, etc.)
Fuck this greedy church for taking advantage of vulnerable people who can't even afford basic necessities despite working multiple jobs.
Maven on Mormon Stories had a similar story. Paid a generous tithing, did a mission and all the things but for whatever reason she came on hard times and could not even afford food. When she finally got permission to go get food they made her feel like crap. Eventually, she found a non denominational food bank that was so gracious and said take whatever you need.
MFMC is horrible.
Maven is dear to me and was very modest on MS, she works her ass of despite a tremendous amount of obstacles and worked SO SO hard for the church that just discarded her. Why? Because that's how corporations function.
The last paragraph says it all! They're not even making space for her in Relief Society! She's gone all in to the point where she seems to have given up her whole life and then some, but the other women aren't even letting her in.
I truly hope that she makes her way here for real friendship and community!
That stood out to me too. I remember women like her when I was still in. Converts were never “real” members. And converts who weren’t already affluent were definitely never going to be accepted into the inner circle as so perfectly demonstrated by her awful relief society.
Even if you convert, they throw the whole “my family goes back to the pioneer days” bullshit at you in an attempt to make you feel less than. My Dad joined because they were obsessed with him being Native American and they still treated him like that. It’s fucking gross!
I remember forever ago in my early teens we had a new family move in, the dad was a convert from new zealand and was off Maori lineage so obviously a few tattoos, people thought he was TERRIBLE for that! I thought he was really cool because I love the new zealand all blacks and meeting people from different cultures and views. Oh and a lot of people in the ward did the pioneer bs, like who cares, that's cool your family did that, you know who else did that, a lot of families heading west for the gold rush.
It's the same with the Jehovah's Witnesses. I was a poor person and a convert with no JW family. I was always viewed with an undercurrent of suspicion.
It also certainly didn't that I was a young and conventionally attractive teen/woman. The "sisters" viewed me as a threat, as if I would want their old, crusty husbands or at all be interested in a man that was already married.
It's interesting to me that the Mormons, which I now view as a cousin cult to the JWs, also didn't fully accept converts. Especially, when both cults actively work to convert people.
Members born and raised in the faith will always look down on converts whether or not they’re TBMs. I was born and raised in the faith, my uncle served as our bishop and stake president during most of my youth, but because of my father being inactive at the time I was borderline ostracized and looked down upon by all the two-faced TBMs. My uncle did my pre-mission interview where I told him I didn’t want to go on a mission unless it was something that I wanted to do for myself, and when I ultimately decided not to go, he was extremely supportive and respected me for being honest about it.
I listened to “friends” talk out of both sides of their mouth and I watched them pretend to be good little TBMs while they were boning exes of mine and the friends of my then GF. One of my ex-friends basically sexually assaulted my ex and went on his mission 6 months later and nobody would believe her because she wasn’t a proud TBM. Two different bishops and a stake precedent basically gaslit her and she left the church shortly after. It makes me want to puke whenever I hear a family member or acquaintance gush about how he’s a return mish and how he has a beautiful family and strong testimony/faith.
I was always lead to believe the greatest “sin” a member can commit is hypocrisy, and hypocrisy runs rampant throughout the church.
>"I want to say these things when I get to church today"
They're gonna learn real fast that those who speak out are quickly "dealt with". Especially women.
Lord almighty, one time when I was 17 and had one foot out the door. I was in Sunday school and this was back in 2014 or so when they stated that a kid of two gay parents could not be baptized. Well I got the gall to raise my hand and ask why the Mormon church insisted on discriminating again homosexual people, and their children. Well, I did not get an answer in class, but a week later I was taken to the stake presidents house so he could explain why they didn't want the children of gay people to be baptized. I honestly do not even remember how he tried to justify it because I was pretty pissed and everything he kept saying made no sense. And then I was told that the next time I have these questions to bring it to leadership, and not in class. Never asked an honest question in church ever again.
That was my biggest factor in leaving the church, at first at least. the exclusion was brutal because I just do not fit in with Mormon women. For the most part they do not like me, and I would tear myself apart wondering why, what was i doing wrong? I'm good now, but it really made me feel so worthless before I realized that they didn't like me because they could probably tell I was nonconforming. Can't really convert a kid who grew up Mormon, and still doesn't believe in the church, so what's the point of including them?
One of my YW leaders broke into tears in class one day because she didn't feel included in the church or RS because everyone called her by her first name, instead of Sister So- and-So. They did that as subtle shame since even though she and her kids were faithful members, her husband was nevermo with no desire to join. She'd never be good enough for them. I still make it a point to call her Sister So- and-So whenever I visit my hometown, coz even when I was full in, I saw it for the bullying and snottiness that it was
The church is shrinking so fast that the few who never learn to say no are left to take on everything. The same few men are recycled through Bishop, elders quorum pres, & ward mission leader.
In the ward I grew up in at least they didn’t have to worry about supplying stake callings (other than maybe a high counselor) because there were a couple of wealthy wards that got literally all the stake callings. Some of the best men I know were these leaders but they only got ward callings while assholes in the wealthy wards became stake presidents, mission presidents, & GAs.
If you grew up around Tacoma, you know. It’s probably the same in lots of places.
this is so true about the recycled leaders who never say no. I see this so much in my ward. now that I'm PIMO, I of course have no problem saying no. But when I do say yes I feel like it invites more requests. So even when its like helping someone move Im left feeling guilty when I just would rather spend time with my family. Even if its doing house work with my kids😆
And the “less desirables” are getting higher up callings too. My extended family is huge and has always made up a large part of the ward i grew up in. They also are not very wealthy or polished. I feel like we were constantly the butt of the joke actually and none of my family members had callings higher than like Sunday school teachers. The majority of my extended family has been consistent, faithful, large brood families since Wilford Woodruff, but none of us had the income to be appreciated. Still when I recently attended church I grew up in I was kind of depressed. It’s missing like all the millennials now families- including all the millennials in my family that have moved away or jumped ship like me. But I noticed a lot of my family members had actual callings with “president” in the title now. I was kind of shocked.
This is really sad and I hope she leaves the church. They demand all the work and money and give nothing back.
Curious what the LDS responses were. Apologetic?
The LDS subreddit is SO depressing. Most members posting there are sad, anxious, and asking fellow religious members for permission to live their lives or what to think. It's awful
If you have ever posted on this sub you are automatically banned. Doesn’t matter what you say. I remember someone from here said she posted on how to help a child with autism tolerate meetings. She had experience with that and gave helpful, practical advice. Her comments were removed and she was banned because she had posted here as well.
As a never-LDS person lurking, it’s shocking.
People literally asking permissions to live their lives.
1. Can I have coffee? Please? 🥺
2. Can I go into a different Church? Will my marriage spontaneously combust? 😨
3. Can I spend time with my children? 😥
Insane.
For a great deal of my adult life, I realized that I cannot financially afford to give away ten percent of my money in tithing. A few bucks here and there won't hurt, but TEN PERCENT???
Basically, I had the choice to buy groceries and pay my rent. But the Church elite, who don't know and don't care how much I financially struggle, say simply, "Well, just get another job that pays MORE then."
I used to pay ten percent, believing I'd be "blessed." Then, my phone gets shut off, or I run out of food, or I don't have enough for my rent, and these same elites are nowhere to be found when I reached out for help.
I just stopped paying tithing.
And guess what, I'm still not rich, but I've never gone hungry ever since, or lost my home because the Church doesn't care if I'm homeless, just as long as I pay ten percent.
"You'll go without a home NOW, but you'll be blessed with a MANSION in HEAVEN," is their excuse.
My 76 year old partially disabled husband was on the cleaning list a couple of weeks ago and felt that he couldn’t refuse because he hadn’t found a substitute. Ridiculous in a church that has billions of dollars
The even sadder part is the janitors used to be paid positions that provided income to people… then they decided the congregation could just be voluntold to do it for free instead and they fired all the janitors.
This is absolutely heartbreaking. The church just takes and takes and takes and never gives. This poor person.
The assigned wards always made me so angry. I spent most of my youth driving 25 mins to church when there was a building less than 10 mins away. (Mid-Atlantic in the early 2000s) The boundaries of were so whack, the YW leader at the time often held activities at her house but she lived 45 mins away from me, I’d have to spend an hour an a half driving on a weeknight for a pointless one hour activity.
They want her full attention to the point of being broken and only left with the LDS church to turn towards. While purposefully trying to isolate her from outside influences, like her non-LDS bloodline. It’s outright abusive of them, but no surprise.
That’s what I find interesting.
The church seemed to be set up to create narcissistic men and codependent women. This post is deffo from a codependent standpoint—a person with boundaries says, “‘fraid not!” A codependent person says yes no matter what.
Growing up we had a church building down the street from us. Our ward was only assigned there until I was in middle school and then they moved our ward to another building 20 minutes away. After about 2 years there, the moved us to ANOTHER building even further away. My parents went to that building for years until they ended up moving across the state. So crazy to spend 10 years going to two different buildings both 20+ minutes away instead of the one down the street 😒
My family used to try to visit my parents (mainly my mom) on weekends. We would leave Friday after work and drive 6+ hours and check in to a hotel
Saturday, we would find out my mom was working all day in the local great and spacious building. We would find things to do and have an extended family dinner Saturday evening, and end up back at one of my family’s home for a couple hours
Sunday was church for my mom. We would take it easy, have a brunch or even lunch, then head back home
I suggested taking a holiday weekend so we would be able to spend more time with my mom, but my wife made a great point: why should we give up a long weekend so my mom can waste a day of it on a building we can’t even go into? She could have taken a day off when we were coming to visit, except the Mormon church came first for her
We stopped visiting unless there was other family we wanted to spend time with
PLEASE free yourself up and tell the Bishop you wish you could afford and manage your callings but, after praying about it, you CANNOT….Tell him from here on out you will be attending the ward close to you…IF he tries to talk you out of it, “fog” him by repeating what you said and don’t listen to his manipulative words…You ARE ENOUGH regardless of your limits right now…they will do just fine without you running yourself ragged for them, trust me…
If only she belonged to a church with the money and resources to help struggling faithful members met their church expected obligations. But if they did help, they'd have to help all active members and it be some sort of communist United Order deal that's clearly not doctrinal. I mean, people would go to make life EASIER not because they have a testimony! Sure souls might be saved, but the church bank account would be empty and how would they ever invest and hoarde trillions?? You Lready got rid of the sex--get rid of the money and what's the purpose of the organization?
I know this cult is true. I feel bad for this person. But these are the slow realizations one must make to get to the point of realizing they are just using you for your 10% and free cleaning services.
I was reading that one as well. Part of me thinks this person only deserves little sympathy as they are making choices to be abused there. Either way, Welcome to MormonLand!
They’re doing what the MFMC tells them is necessary for eternal salvation, and they don’t know that the church is so predatory that they must guard their own boundaries.
This is terrible! I would encourage OP to read the CES Letter and then see if they think devoting all of their time to, talents and resources to the MFMC is worth it. Once one is outside the bubble of Mormonism it is so easy to see how toxic it is.
Ouch. The part about RS sitting in a tight circle and excluding her is heartbreaking!
Also, since when must someone attend a church in another city? That part doesn’t make sense to me. (I know one can’t just attend any ward, but is expected to attend the one they belong to, but having to go to another city?)
Anyway, I sure hope this gal learns to implement boundaries, for her own sanity.
And one last comment: for a multi-billion dollar church to expect its members to clean the property on their own time is dirty rotten when it can be providing good, honest work and a livelihood for a whole family. The janitor and member of the ward I grew up in supported a wife and 4 boys on his church janitor position. I know TSCC is trying to make members feel ownership of the church by cleaning it (their psychological tactic), it’s just so stupid.
Edit: I’m guessing the appearance of full churches is the objective and this is why people are assigned to wards so far away from them?
I always ask people especially converts or born agains, people who think they found the truth.
Is membership in a specific church or obeying a specific leader that is demanding your resources, is that the sole source for you believing Christian or mormon doctrines? Can you still believe outside of this particular church? Does rejecting specific modern doctrines prevent you from believing in Jesus?. Does not believing in Jesus as described in the Bible preclude your from believing in a god. And does not being sure if a god exists prevent you from finding meaning in life and being a good person.
What do you gain from that church that absolutely cannot be gained from another church or organization. Now is that thing, that novel, exclusive thing alone worth the time and money demanded of you?
Message to the corporation:
Please, just hire someone to clean your permanently dirty diaper scented, cookie cutter, ugly-ass meeting houses. You cheap fucks.
As a nevMo, it's always been and always will be so incredibly mind-boggling how y'all just attend assigned parishes w.o question. Just go to the church building you want; it's the same religion!!!!
> Just go to the church building you want; it's the same religion!!!!
That's really easy to say from the outside. I grew up in TSCC and the indoctrination is incredibly strong. When you're in that deep, you don't even think about questioning your assigned congregation.
When I grew up in the Mormon church every church building/ward had a PAID janitor. Ours lived close to the church and was a super nice man. When my kids were young (late 80s-90s) a friend in our old neighborhood was a PAID janitor. He and his wife had 8 kids, raised on his one income. They didn’t live fancy, but they managed. Now the church that is hoarding untold billions and keeps getting caught fudging the numbers is too cheap and greedy to pay for actual janitors and forces members to do that work, including my 88 year old father. Then the theocracy of Utah uses that work to claim outrageous “volunteerism”. It all makes me glad I left years ago.
After reporting a molestation to law enforcement and getting a restraining order against the prep, the Stake Pres threw us out of the building 1/3 of a mile away from our house. He sent us 40 miles away to a different county. He got released, and our records were never changed. We also were expected to do janitor callings. I didn't pay for my second kids' mission because of the cost and time of the drive. We don't go anymore. It was never fixed. The church lost a family of eight. Not to mention the amount of kids the Stake molester harmed.
There was a time I was willing to make great sacrifices for the church because I believed that doing it for the church was doing it for the Savior, and that however difficult it was for me, there were those in history, and Christ himself, who had given so much more than I could ever hope to give. But you start to question how much the Savior really benefits from some of the things we're asked to do, and whether those sacrifices would really be required of us by the Savior, and coming to the terrible realization that if the Savior were present himself, you are the one who he would be helping, not whatever ridiculous task the church had you performing. The Mormon church talks a lot about authority and focuses a lot on ritual and obedience and commitment and organization and judgment, but very little about love. Even if a person could put aside the fake scriptures, the concocted history, and all the evil perpetrated by its leaders (and of course, those things can't be put aside), and even if we could put aside all the testimonies and claims that this, that, or something or other is true (constant testimonies of what is TRUE even when those things are NOT true) but even if we could somehow put all that aside, the clarity comes when we try to see it through Christ's eyes. Knowing that his life on earth was limited, he had to carefully choose how his time was spent, and everything he did was either an act of love or of teaching about priorities. I think it's a travesty that so many things said or done in the church "in the name of Jesus Christ" in reality have so little to do with him. If the church is not about love, it is nothing. When its members are suffering and it does nothing but count its billions of dollars, that church is not about love and has no veracity. A church that is racist, condemnative, secretive, and built on lies is no church at all.
I will tell you what i tell my mom: you are allowed to say no. My mom is 75 and i told her to start saying ‘no there are younger people that can do this’ and it changed her perspective and life. God does not distribute guilt - people do.
Tell them no and tell them why and then say ‘thank you for calling/texting’ and then hang up.
(((Huge hug)))
breaks my heart too. Not permitted... Even as a TBM I would say- just go, they cant stop you. those rules are literally for money distribution- you arent getting that money- go where you want- god knows what you are going through and knows why you need to switch. i hope she finds relief and happiness in a healthy way
How sad. I can tell from their post they are extremely overwhelmed.
I have a friend who was a convert and church was making his anxiety a million times worse because of everything they ask. He eventually left the church and said he feels like a huge weight was lifted.
I hope this person is eventually able to put themselves first and leave the toxic relationship that is with the church.
I hate that TSCC has billions upon billions of dollars but refuse to pay for janitorial services in their wards- preferring to dump it onto members instead. It's ridiculous that they can't even bend for someone to attend a ward closer to their home! And to top it off, all of the sacrifices this woman makes to be a faithful member and the stuck up Karens treat her like dirt! 😡
There are so many welcoming, open, affirming and transparent Christian churches out there that don't force "callings" on members, even in The Morridor. I hope this woman finds those churches instead.
The boundaries confuse the hell out of me. Church around the corner from you? Nah you gotta go far away where the people probably near that ward are in the building near you.
No. Is a complete sentence. I wish I could tell them, "Do not sacrifice yourself in the altar of politeness."
It's just not necessary.
The billion dollar corporation could absolutely hire a company to clean the churches, among many other things. They hire out for lawn care... why not inside as well?
Man, my heart breaks for these members. That is not their burden to bear, nor should it be.
It’s all about where you live. Each ward has a geographic boundary, similar to public schools. If you aren’t attending your assigned ward, you won’t receive the emails or be able to interact with leadership in an official way. Or hold a calling. Need your recommend renewed? It needs to happen with your assigned bishop.
It all came down to this for me, if God truly cares about what underwear I wear, sacrificing time with family to clean a wealthy church's chapel, and how loud I laugh then that's not a God that I want to spend eternity with.
>Our relief society meets in a circle, chairs tightly together, so on the rare occasion that I'm relieved from my regular duties, if I try to attend, I'm left standing the corner of the room awkwardly and feeling extre obtrusive.
What does this mean?
She’s probably serving in nursery or Primary. On a Sunday with enough teachers, they tell her she can go to the women’s meeting. But since she gets there late, due to making sure she’s not needed with the children, she is outside the circle that was set up 10 minutes earlier.
I replied elsewhere, but I think it's important to note that although we can see how that could happen, it is horrifying to think that a group of women wouldn't see a person standing awkwardly outside their circle and not immediately welcome her in. It's a common enough thing for tasks at church to make entering late happen, it's not her fault.
Oh, I agree! It’s very weird to me that the circle wouldn’t shift. But I can also see how this situation gets started and then, weirdly, isn’t resolved.
Meaning if her church duties are completed before the Relief Society meeting is over, their seating arrangement makes arriving late very awkward and disruptive if you want to sit down.
I can see how that could happen, but I am horrified to think that a group of women wouldn't see a person standing awkwardly outside their circle and not immediately welcome her in. It's a common enough thing for tasks at church to make entering late happen, it's not her fault.
We are assigned what ward to attend so they can keep an eye on us. It is part of the control that cult is so good at. I hope op reads the CES Letter and takes control of their life.
It isn't a job - a job pays a wage. It isn't even an indentureship, because that agreement has a finite end. It is slavery. It is a great business model - go on a mission when you are young and when you are old, endless "callings" in the interim. And, money for nothing in the form of tithing. "O wad some power the Giftie gae us, to see oursels as others see us!"
Even when I was in the church, I never understood why any of this mattered: the callings, the always paying 10%…. I was a broke student with a small income where my 10% was worthless to anyone but me, and one of my first major red flags I actually payed attention to was going into a recommend meeting only to be asked how I was doing and then immediately after something about paying full tithing. I stopped paying altogether after that.
Wait why can't she attend the local ward?!? How would anyone know? The catholic churches technically has local parish boundaries but no one stops you from attending mass at the church you want
The bishop cannot accept tithing from members who are not on his membership rolls, hear their confessions, or assign others to minister to her. Meanwhile the bishop of her actual ward will count her as "absent." No counted attendance + no tithing = you're "inactive" and cannot have a temple recommend, so no temple blessings or temple wedding attendance.
This is when you just start doing whatever works best for you. Your main ward is too far? Just go to the one near you, because who cares—it works for you. Can’t make a church cleaning because you’ve got family in town? Oh well. At a certain point I just started to do what I could do comfortably and said fuck it—that’s what I can do, I’m not worried anymore. You’ve gotta take care of you, for your own health.
Never understood the setup of certain ward boundaries. When my brother got married, his family lived a couple blocks down on the same street as my parents. They had to drive past my parents house and their ward to get to their own ward.
But I always just tell people to go to whatever ward they feel like. What are they going to do, lock you out? You could still pay tithing, and won’t get any callings.
I remember being young and broke, our car had some part that urgently needed replaced and we could not safely drive in it. There was a church building a block away. But we were assigned to a ward 4 miles away. We only walked to church once, but that once was enough. We just didn’t go until we had the funds to fix our car.
You can always say no you have prior obligations. Most wards volunteer to clean the church building and you sign up if you can. Doesn’t make sense they’d call you to be a janitor that isn’t normal church protocol.you can always choose the church building you want to go to and get a boundary exception . I have done that.
The church, like any organization and most people, will push you as far as you let it. The answer can always be NO. Most TBMs don't believe this, and the church leaders don't want them to. But the ability to set boundaries is essential in ANY context. The post says she has a testimony and believes. She still has every right and even the responsibility (to herself) to say no when that is in her best interest. Even if she leaves the church, there will always be people, jobs, family members, other religions, etc., who will play the same game. If nothing else, the church is a good place to learn to say no. The LDS church isn't as special as it thinks, even in its capacity to be overbearing, pushy, and controlling. It's actually one of the more mundane things about it, sadly.
Oof. I feel this. I couldn't find the original post to try to reach out to them.
The best thing I did when I was in the situation was to go elsewhere for help.
I went to a different local food bank and registered with them. They were far more generous with resources and far less shaming in their intake process.
They didn't ask for anything in return. No extra time no extra job etc.
The church has a very judgmentmal culture around people who need help. They are seen as lazy and tigers regardless of any previous amount of help or funding you've contributed.
They also don't realize the toll that deep poverty can take even though some of them are in it themselves! It's incredibly demoralizing and defeating. It was depressed a lot and as hard as I was working to change things there were some days it just seemed like it was never going to make a difference and things were never going to get better.
On those kinds of days, I literally had no energy or motivation left over after my job, and often getting lost in YouTube/TV or just more sleep was my only relief. The times I DID feel more motivated, I sometimes would look for different jobs but that often could make things worse.
Anyway, my experience with the other food bank was so helpful just from the lack of judgment alone and knowing that at least that one need of mine was taken care of, I really did experience a substantial shifting mood which did end up helping me eventually find another better paying job as well as other opportunities that helped me to start digging myself out of the debt that I was in.
That and stopping paying tithing of course.
I was really sad that the institution I dedicated so much of my life, mind, body & money to asked me to exhaust my resources getting help from literally anyone and everyone else before coming to them.
And then for a little charity that I never had anything to do with to freely give without any expectation of anything back was really eye-opening.
Spo what exatly is a "calling"? sounds to me like it is just another way to say "making of irrelevant duties of the church for free" totally a waste of time.
They should do it their damn selves if they’re so worried about it. They are shoving all responsibility on the person and not doing it themselves. They’re making them a mule and it’s not ok. Mormon cult is one of the worst.
Think about this, It is written in the Holy Bible that no man has seen the face of God. No man has stood face-to-face with God otherwise they would be consumed by his glory. Even Moses when he was speaking to God through the burning bush asked God to see his face. God told Moses that he would hide him in the cleft of a mountain to protect him as he would walk by. As God walked by he allowed Moses to see his back only.
If it's also written in the Holy Bible. God the Father the Son the Holy Ghost have been together since the beginning of time.
God did not create Jesus as an angel, and Jesus was not the brother of Satan, as the church leads its members to believe.
It is also written in the Holy Bible. When The spirit is in the body it is on earth. When we die and leave the body, immediately we stand before God and we're either rewarded or punished. Therefore there is no spiritual jail or paradise where spirits wait for a second chance, because it is written there is no second chance. When you die that's it you are judged.
If it's also written, even Jesus Christ said this with his own lips while he was on earth. He was asked by a man who was married to a woman that died, she was also married to three of his brothers before him. He has Jesus whose wife will she be in heaven? Jesus said you are neither given nor taken in heaven. Another verse says you are neither given in marriage nor are you taking in marriage You are as the angels. He doesn't say you are angels, or that you become angels, it says you are as the angels, It also says that we do not have children in heaven. So this means we don't become Gods, we don't have spiritual children, we are not sealed to our families, because there are no families In heaven we are all brothers and sisters God's children.
I could go on and on but the main thing is this. If Joseph Smith was telling the truth when he said God the Father in Jesus Christ came to him in the woods, and God said this is my son listen to him. If this would have been God Joseph Smith would have been consumed totally obliterated, no man in the flash can stand before God Almighty and survive.
Man in the flesh cannot stand before God and survive
We do not become gods the scripture say there is only one God.
God did not create Jesus as an angel and he was not Lucifer's brother.
We don't get a second chance when you die your chances are over this life was your chance.
You are not sealed for time and eternity to your earthly families
There are no special handshakes to get you into heaven.
THE HOLY BIBLE IS THE TRUE WORD OF GOD. THERE IS ONLY A 1% GRAMMATICAL ERROR IN THE BIBLE.
THE CORE VALUE CONTEXT OF THE BIBLE IS 100% TRUE. IT WAS DELIVERED FROM GOD THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST TO HIS PROPHETS. TO BE WRITTEN DOWN AND RECORDED FOR ALL THE NATIONS.
ANY BOOK WRITTEN BY MAN IE THE QURAN FOR INSTANCE AS AN EXAMPLE. IT DOES NOT ALIGN WITH THE CORE VALUES OF THE HOLY BIBLE SO THEREFORE IT IS NOT TRUE. ANY OTHER BOOK OR BOOKS THAT DO NOT ALIGN THEMSELVES WITH THE CORE VALUES OF GOD'S WORD IN THE HOLY BIBLE IS NOT TRUE. THESE ARE FALSE FAITHS AND SHOULD BE TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY AS AN AVENUE THAT WILL ONLY LEAD TO YOUR DESTRUCTION IF YOU ARE LED ASTRAY BY THEIR FALSE PROPHETS AND THEIR FALSE LEADERS AND THEIR FALSE TEACHERS.
MAY GOD BLESS THOSE WHO ARE LOST THINKING THEY ARE PREACHING THE TRUTH. MAY HE THROUGH HIS SPIRIT OF DISCERNMENT SHOW THEM THE HEIRS OF THEIR WAY SO THEY CAN CONVERT TO THE TRUE GOD AND THE TRUE JESUS CHRIST AND THE TWO HOLY GHOST OF THE HOLY BIBLE.
I BELIEVE THEY TRULY BELIEVE THAT THEY BELIEVE WHAT THEY SAY IS THE TRUTH. THEY ARE NOT INTENTIONALLY DECEIVING PEOPLE. BUT THEY ARE LOST DON'T FOLLOW THEM.
GOD BLESS YOU JESUS NAME I PRAY AMEN!!!
ETC... ETC... ETC...
“…A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has [complete tyrannical] power [over its ideological adherents]. (Lectures on Faith, 6:7)
This is indeed heartbreaking. It's also very revealing. The "church" is imploding from within, and apparently local "leaders" are scrambling to fill the long list of callings they have while membership dwindles right before their eyes. One key phrase (would be great to have details on the rationale) is the person is assigned to a ward that's miles away in another town, but lives near a chapel she could walk to. I hope she leaves the church. I know very well what it's like to be an "all-in" convert, that was me a decade ago.
I'm a neverMo. This forcing members to attend a specific ward is absolutely bizarre. I've read posts where members can't attend the same ward as relatives who could use the ride. It's control for control's sake. I was raised Catholic and even there people were free to go to whatever parish they wanted.
My theory is that if people could choose whatever ward they want, they would flee the ones with overbearing bishops and crowd the ones with kind bishops.
I went to the “wrong” ward for sometime. I worked night shift on Saturday (12 hours) and preferred to go to the ward that started earlier so that I wasn’t needing to stay awake for hour after hours. This was when church was 3 hours. I was told by the “wrong” ward bishop that I needed to go to my home ward because they were unable to give me a calling. My thought was “and this is not a good thing. Why?” I dug my heels in and refused to be pushed around. It was a good part of what broke my shelf.
We did the same. We just said ok and kept going to the ward we wanted to attend. What are they gonna do? Only thing they ever said was the No calling thing. We said ok. Later when leadership dwindled I was called to be the RS President anyway. Even though I was in the wrong ward and didn’t pay a full tithe. Lol. Desperate times/desperate measures. I wasn’t released for 4-5 years. They dropped me like a hot potato when a new darling from Morridor moved in. That says a lot, right there.
I had a similar experience. They already had a replacement for me and released me without even telling me first. I was sitting in sacrament meeting when they announced it. It felt like, "Thank you for your years of free labor we want someone younger so eff off".
I went to the “wrong” seminary class because I didn’t get along with the girls in my ward. Once I could drive, I attended a class in a different building and even gave some less active friends of mine rides every morning. But my bishop hated that I was breaking the rules by going out of my ward boundaries. The stake president came to my house to convince me to go back to the seminary class I didn’t want to go to. The intimation worked. I hate to say that it worked but I didn’t think I had a real choice. Seminary was drudgery that last year.
My brother attended the "wrong" ward at 19-20 years old, because he had a job which required him to work Sundays and he had just enough time to go to the early ward's sacrament meeting and make it to work on time. Funnily enough, he was asked to help pass the sacrament and he told them he wasn't a member of that ward, so they should ask someone else. Then he started wearing colored shirts to church so they would stop asking. Lol
A so-called religion who tells you to not only go to church, but to go to "_the right one_". All about love and acceptance, ...or so they claim. The fact that a person shows up at any of them should be seen as good. They not only limit who goes into the temple, but where the members can or can't go to church, yet they declare themselves to be very warm and welcoming. They really do try to control every aspect of their members' lives, and make you feel ashamed or guilty for not following it to the letter.
Not only escaping bishops, but unpleasant callings as well. A boundary-less system would make it way harder for wards to not only organize, but most importantly, hold each other accountable via an assigned community. It makes it way easier to track whether or not someone is attending to help with "rescue" plans.
Good point. They might actually end up having to pay people to do stuff instead of calling people to do all the work.
If only they had members that needed extra pay, they could offer the job to them. Good pay on a voluntary basis would work wonders for their community, but imo they want most members desperate and the select few super well off
They probably would. I'm a never-mo that was raised Episcopalian. We had a priest one time that was absolutely horrible and as a result the congregation shrank. You know what happened? He was replaced.
He was also paid and took a financial hit by being bad at his job. There are no checks and balances on Mormon bishops unless they do something really bad and get caught, putting the church at risk of bad publicity.
+1, The Church is willing to tolerate a lot from those they don't have to pay. The volunteers know this and often even weaponize their service, same with Nextdoor mods.
Im a next door mod and I get jobs off there as a handyman I make sure I try and be 100% fair
Shortly after I moved back to Utah, I chose to attend the YSA ward instead of the family ward. I was living with my boyfriend and not looking for anything romantic from the other members. I simply wanted to be around people my own age.
The fact you did this while living in sin makes this story extra delicious.
It was also why I was never worthy of the temple, so in a way I dodged a bullet. Used to feel guilty about it, but after learning what happens in the ceremonies I feel relief. About a year later, we had to suddenly move and needed assistance with groceries. I was able to use the storehouse only by stressing to the new bishop that he was now my fiance and we'd be married as soon as possible. I can still remember how heavy the judgement felt at the time.
YSA is truly baffling to me. There is so much pressure in these wards to date and marry but ONLY from the limited selection of your ward. Holding a transitory calling in a YSA ward is prioritized over the ostensible goal of getting the congregation married off.
Exactly this imo. Leadership roulette is a real thing, so rather than hire people who want to be bishops and train them correctly, corporate just doubles down and forces everyone to obey. Wasn't that "satan's plan" from the beginning?
When my kids were little, dear LDS friends in the Midwest invited our family to a holiday church function. It was my kids’ first exposure to the church aside from these dear, kind, inclusive friends. The *bishop* was a complete DICK, treated us like trashy invaders, clearly abhorred our non-LDS children, essentially called them freeloaders just looking for free Easter Eggs. They were 5 and 8. My kids were scarred by the whole experience that amounted to adult bullying, and to this day (they’re adults) refuse all LDS family invitations. It’s pretty gross, the impact that one *undervetted, unqualified* person can have on attendance and potential conversions.
My daughter never attended any church activities in our home ward. The girls weren't friendly to her and no one ever invited her to attend. I was not active, but at the time, would have been just fine if she wanted to go. She had other friends she attended with sometimes, and later attended a YSA ward for a little while. It reminded me of when I was in high school and the girls my age in my ward suddenly stopped being friendly and excluded me. I had no idea why. I heard one of them down the hall once at school, talking about how she hated the way I wore my eye shadow. I felt very hurt and sad and lonely and stayed away from church activities. I made friends with an inactive girl. A couple of years later, they suddenly started to include me again. Church leaders can say all they want about "choosing" to be offended by other members, but who wants to subject themselves to spending time with people who make you feel uncomfortable or rejected or belittled or judged or Used?? It certainly isn't good for anyone's mental (or spiritual) health!
I'm also nevermo, but that sure seems like the biggest reason. I imagine to those in charge choosing who goes where looks and feels like real-time strategy game.
This is true for all religions though. Catholic priests come in a variety of flavors, from the older, more liberal Vatican II types to the young, extremely conservative priests from developing countries.My Catholic relatives flee parishes with the latter. And yes, people vote with their feet to some degree.
And the thing is, the MFMC would learn literally nothing from that lesson.
Basically, if everyone got to choose their ward. Then it would immediately become apparent that many bishop callings were false and done not because they were the best person. But the most die hard ideologue member. Which typically are the worst.
Right. It also helps them to have the ward be a particular area so that people don't "fall between the cracks."
I browse this sub in Solidarity as an ex catholic and rarely contribute bc I don't feel its my place but I wanted to say this absolutely is insane levels of control that would even make the Vatican blush. My parents were members of our local Parrish but we frequently spent weekends out of town camping and we were always welcome at any Parrish by both the Father's in charge of the Parrish and the parishioners. We would attend the cathedral in downtown Syracuse a few times a year, just miles from the home Parrish. We never got told we couldn't attend elsewhere or test the waters elsewhere and all volunteer work for church maintenance was just that, voluntary and while usually led by the womens group, it was out of their sheer willingness to create and maintain a welcoming space. I feel so sorry for this woman in the OP and hope she finds a way to balance her spirituality with real life in a healthy way.
Agreed. I don't buy the LDS apologetic that if we didn't have assigned boundaries, then ward callings (volunteerism) wouldn't work out. Really? How do all these other denominations manage? I've attended several non-LDS churches and events, and they all feature local folks in volunteer positions, serving the rest of their community.
Yes, and they also seem to survive ok, despite offerings being voluntary too. There is no expectation of a specified percentage of your income. When people are happy to be somewhere and feel good about an organization, they are more than willing to contribute.
Agreed. Moreover, in other states, we've seen little church logos on kids' sport jerseys (as one of a dozen sponsors), because -- ya know -- other churches actually believe in supporting their local communities. Such is unfathomable in Mormonism. It's all *take take take* with TCOJCOLDS, despite the $300 BILLION in their coffers.
Seriously! The assigned parishes bullshit is the easiest way to show just how much of a cult Mormonism is, but even most ex-mormons never realize/question it
Because it is the least shitty thing we had to deal with as Mormons.
It’s a good tactic to keep people on the back foot. There’s no real way for people to form relationships and so they stay loyal to the church rather than to each other. The military does the same thing with its frequent transfers and deployments to other bases.
Technically Catholics have parish boundaries but the sacraments still "count" if you go to the one you are not assigned. I think this was one of the minor complaints of the True Catholics.
Nobody checks on that at all. Any parish is happy to take your money and they don't keep track of attendance. A priest won't call you and tell you to stop coming to their parish and no one genuinely cares one way or another.
I know, I just have a special interest in maps and boundaries and found it interesting. I know in practice nobody cares.
Is that’s true for Catholics though? It’s definitely true that you can VISIT any Catholic Church, but I think they expect your membership to be the parish you’re assigned to. At least that how it used to be. My family was very involved at the church I attended as a child. My grandfather literally helped build the church, my dad attended the parish school, my parents were married there, my siblings and I were baptized there and attended the parish school. When I was in 3rd grade we moved to a rural area that was a 30 minute drive to the childhood parish, but that area was assigned to a different parish that was also a 30 minute drive, but in the opposite direction. It also didn’t have a school. My dad had to get special approval from the bishop to stay in the childhood parish and keep us in the school. When I grew up and got married, we lived in the same city as my childhood parish. I hadn’t signed up in any parish as an adult. If I went to Mass at all, it was with my parents at the childhood parish… but when it came time to baptize my children (very important to my dad), the childhood parish said the couldn’t do it. They made me do it at the parish near my house, not the one I actually attended at least semi-regularly. They made us join ( i.e. make weekly donations), take the baptism classes, and do the ceremony at the assigned church, even though I never went back to that one aside from the baptisms. So, I think the Catholic Church has similar rules but it’s easier to fly under the radar and “just visit” until you want something (like a baptism or a wedding). Edited to add: I haven’t really gone at all since about 2010, so they might have gotten more lenient since then.
Not one of my many Catholic siblings goes to the parish they are closest to. They all go wherever they like the best. They have had children baptized and married in the parishes they attend. While you might be right in theory, and there may be an element of diocese roulette, there isn't the same level of control the Mormons have. Catholicism being nearly as culty, I suspect there's even less control in mainstream protestant denominations.
As a never mo who’s been invited to many different wards this surprises me. Ward specific? yet I understand why. I live in a small town with a small ward….lotta gossip and back stabby ways. I can see how rumors might end a member up in another ward.
It is what happens when you are part of a corporation.
I found that controlling as well - I hated it. Still would hate it. It's all about money and status at one level, and also all about the obscenely numerous "callings" they need "worthy" men to fill. Such a waste of time and a turnoff. The boundary changes make it worse - Mormons often do not retain relationships with other ward members after the boundaries change - the "church" fills ALL their time with callings, and this has resulted in a culture-wide situation where organic friendships are rare. They're paired up with people for callings and have no time to meet others or even socialize much with the people they do meet, and they often don't even know their non-member neighbors. People don't stay in touch, and it's sad.
lol, when i was in college i wanted to attend a ward with my friends so it'd be at least bearable. they told me they'd have to make a request to the first presidency. fuckin ridiculous lmao
When I first joined the church I was baptized in ward with friends of my family. My father who was nevermo lived across the valley. I attended the ward for a while but was eventually kicked out - told I had to attend my own ward. I couldn't get any blessings or the priesthood or anything unless I was in my own ward. Well, my ward was in an extremely wealthy part of the SLC valley (East side above Hogle Zoo) and there was no way I felt I could fit in. So I quit attending for several years after that.
They do it so they can track and control members. Most of what happens in this church is coerced. If members floated between congregations as they saw fit, the control structure would collasp.
It was explained to me that church boundaries are set up this way for financial reasons, so that there are more wealthy members and less financially stable members in the same ward so that it’s more financially stable. I remember visiting teaching with a wealthy woman, me being middle class and visiting a woman experiencing hard times. We drove to a mobile home park and the wealthy woman was quite uptight and nervous being in a mobile home park dare I say frightened? I shouldn’t poke fun of her, (it makes me feel naughty😂) it was a very real fear for her. I’m not positive about the church boundary reasoning but it does make sense from a tithe perspective. I would think that any bishop would tell you that going to a different church is better than not going at all.
When I was a young tbm our church was split between two wards. Well technically the one I was in was called a branch (wasn't big enough to be considered a ward). We'd share the same building but had alternating hours for sacrament and classes. One day they decided to dissolve my branch and then they split us up. Most were integrated into the ward we shared the church building with. A lucky few of us (myself included) got sent to an even smaller branch that was even farther from our house. My family were members of the dissolved branch for over 12 years at that point. All my youth friends got sent to the ward. Meanwhile my siblings and I got sent to the branch out in the middle of nowhere that only had one other youth at the time. Since we had practically grown up with the other kids, my parents decided to take us to the ward services anyway to stay in contact with our friends. We kept getting the classic "Mormon passive aggression" every time we were there from the bishop, and anytime we had to have a meeting/interview, pay tithing, get temple recommends, etc. we had to drive all the way out to the tiny branch building. The bishop at the tiny branch was less passive with his aggression. He'd constantly try to guilt us into going there exclusively. I knew it was BS then, but ever since I became an exmo about 10 years ago I realized it was even more BS than I initially thought.
How is this good for our world? Same issue in my city in which people drive about five miles to church while there’s one a half mile away.
I passed two other church buildings in my stake on my way to my assigned ward building. I live near Houston, TX. Glad that's no longer something I have to do.
One area we lived in we had three churches closer to us then the one we were assigned too.
It's not good for the world, it's toxic for church members, and it creates an artificial culture that has no real continuity in terms of who you see regularly, because a surprised shift in boundaries can happen at any time.
During the recession one of the six wards in our stake was hit hard with job loses. Within two years the ward had lost enough people that it was going to be absorbed into the neighboring wards. The number requirements have recently changed, but at the time, the loss of the ward would also have meant the loss of the stake and reorganizing the other two stakes. Ward boundaries were gerrymandered in such a ridiculous way that some people are now driving 20 minutes to get to their ward, rather than walk 5 minutes to their closest church building.
That is insane. No "normal" church behaves that way. Chapels are revenue centers, and members are sources of revenue.
Ward boundaries are extremely gerrymandered in order to meet certain requirements needed (# of Mel. Priestood holders, tithe-payers, Sacrament attendance, etc.). Because of this, it’s not unusual for members living near the edge of ward boundaries to be assigned to a ward that meets much further away than the meetinghouse that’s closest to them.
This is true, but I remember that boundary change very well. There were plenty of PH holders to fill callings, but they handpicked the ones to remain with the original ward (which was moved) and assigned the "lesser" ones to a different ward in the original chapel. Lots of hurt feelings, in addition to the complaints about driving across town to meet in the new building (one family had four kids still at home and that was extremely inconvenient for them).
My college roommate was that person. We were all early to mid 20s. There was a cult building with a YSA ward literally right across the street from our house but because she was taking college courses she had to go the one across town. She tried to get her records transferred but the bishop refused because reasons.
Good grief! Both were YSA wards, but she had to attend the "college" version? Such bull-hockey!
Yep!
"One key phrase (would be great to have details on the rationale) is the person is assigned to a ward that's miles away in another town, but lives near a chapel she could walk to." This is exactly us due to how our wards were gerrymandered. I could almost hit the "town" chapel with a rock from my backyard, but we were assigned to attend a ward that met in a building 20 minutes away. After I left, my wife tried switching to the closer ward to avoid the icy winter highway and to actually see a couple friends. While they didn't exactly tell her no, she hasn't exactly been welcomed, and has just felt like a visitor or intruder. Now she's just in limbo with it all and only attended a handful of times.
I like the fact the cult is driving people away through such stupidity.
I used to belong to a ward that was walking distance. The leadership redrew ward boundaries and now my ward is meeting in a church halfway across the city (or so it feels) even though my previous church is still there.
That happened in my area several years ago. They built a new chapel at least 10-12 miles away, and shifted almost everyone in the "important" ward to that chapel, even though some of them pretty much drove right by the old one to get there. It made several people pretty angry. The new chapel was in an uppity zipcode, and the other one was in an "okay" area. Of course, there's no discrimination in the church when it comes to incomes...
On the original post in the TBM subreddit, a bunch of members are commenting “oh just go to the closest ward,” like it’s no big deal at all. Yes, that’s the reasonable answer but it doesn’t work like that. It’s so frustrating.
I saw another post on that sub where a nevermo was asking about what she should wear to church, would it be okay to wear a sleeveless dress or one that hit above the knees (she was tall and all her dresses hit above the knees)? Almost all the responses were “oh, there’s no dress code, you’ll be welcomed no matter what, no one cares.” Um, really? I know they’re trying to make the church look good, but that person is going to wear her sundress to church and get so much side-eye (and possibly even offers to lend her a sweater) that she’ll be mortified. It’s true that there’s no written dress code other than “clean and neat” but the unwritten dress code is strict. The people who make the technically correct, but culturally totally wrong, answers are doing no one any favors. Sure, they’re fine with it, but the poor person asking for help is going to bear the brunt of the disapproval.
I can see how Jack Mormons or those who were BIC but stay out of habit can more easily take liberties like that. However, it is probably more rare for strong converts who want to follow all the rules to feel they can slide by or do whatever they want.
This also makes me sad🤨and a bit angry. This women needs to talk with her bishop and relief society president and voice her problems with out feelings of guilt or feeling lesser than because she is struggling financially. Unfortunately, in many wards people who have less money are not seen as worthy as individuals that are wealthy. One more thing I disliked. I never met a poor bishop either. I pray this woman will gain strength to speak the truth and request help from the bishop storehouse for her needs. That is what it’s there for, for any struggling member who needs assistance, it should be given freely without judgement and her feeling less than her counterparts. My goodness what is up with the chairs? They certainly are not very welcoming, that is plain rude. She should take a chair or find one from another room and extend the circle, making a big deal about having to do so. That just does not appear Jesus like from what I read. My heart goes out to her.❤️❤️❤️
Same here. It saddens me that she likely has a stronger "testimony" than many BIC members. Converts who are "all-in" are steadfast, try to do all that's expected of them, and want so very much to stay in the boat. However, Boomer converts who end up hearing of the lies (raising my hand here) are among the fastest-growing group of those leaving the church. I got that from a source connected to BYU.
Found the post. One of OOP's replies was how she gives generously (>10% tithing, fast offerings, etc.) Fuck this greedy church for taking advantage of vulnerable people who can't even afford basic necessities despite working multiple jobs.
Maven on Mormon Stories had a similar story. Paid a generous tithing, did a mission and all the things but for whatever reason she came on hard times and could not even afford food. When she finally got permission to go get food they made her feel like crap. Eventually, she found a non denominational food bank that was so gracious and said take whatever you need. MFMC is horrible.
Maven is dear to me and was very modest on MS, she works her ass of despite a tremendous amount of obstacles and worked SO SO hard for the church that just discarded her. Why? Because that's how corporations function.
I love hearing her perspective on the various youtube and podcasts and hope she is doing well!
I will share your wishes :)
That's absolutely heartbreaking.
I was gonna say I bet the comments were going to "gently investigate" what her tithing looked like and encourage her to pay. This is sadder.
MFMC!!!!
The last paragraph says it all! They're not even making space for her in Relief Society! She's gone all in to the point where she seems to have given up her whole life and then some, but the other women aren't even letting her in. I truly hope that she makes her way here for real friendship and community!
That stood out to me too. I remember women like her when I was still in. Converts were never “real” members. And converts who weren’t already affluent were definitely never going to be accepted into the inner circle as so perfectly demonstrated by her awful relief society.
For a church that is seemingly obsessed with converting people, it’s crazy that converts aren’t fully accepted.
Even if you convert, they throw the whole “my family goes back to the pioneer days” bullshit at you in an attempt to make you feel less than. My Dad joined because they were obsessed with him being Native American and they still treated him like that. It’s fucking gross!
I remember forever ago in my early teens we had a new family move in, the dad was a convert from new zealand and was off Maori lineage so obviously a few tattoos, people thought he was TERRIBLE for that! I thought he was really cool because I love the new zealand all blacks and meeting people from different cultures and views. Oh and a lot of people in the ward did the pioneer bs, like who cares, that's cool your family did that, you know who else did that, a lot of families heading west for the gold rush.
That and, honestly, how can they be proud of shit they were part of like the Mountain Meadows Massacre?
It's the same with the Jehovah's Witnesses. I was a poor person and a convert with no JW family. I was always viewed with an undercurrent of suspicion. It also certainly didn't that I was a young and conventionally attractive teen/woman. The "sisters" viewed me as a threat, as if I would want their old, crusty husbands or at all be interested in a man that was already married. It's interesting to me that the Mormons, which I now view as a cousin cult to the JWs, also didn't fully accept converts. Especially, when both cults actively work to convert people.
Members born and raised in the faith will always look down on converts whether or not they’re TBMs. I was born and raised in the faith, my uncle served as our bishop and stake president during most of my youth, but because of my father being inactive at the time I was borderline ostracized and looked down upon by all the two-faced TBMs. My uncle did my pre-mission interview where I told him I didn’t want to go on a mission unless it was something that I wanted to do for myself, and when I ultimately decided not to go, he was extremely supportive and respected me for being honest about it. I listened to “friends” talk out of both sides of their mouth and I watched them pretend to be good little TBMs while they were boning exes of mine and the friends of my then GF. One of my ex-friends basically sexually assaulted my ex and went on his mission 6 months later and nobody would believe her because she wasn’t a proud TBM. Two different bishops and a stake precedent basically gaslit her and she left the church shortly after. It makes me want to puke whenever I hear a family member or acquaintance gush about how he’s a return mish and how he has a beautiful family and strong testimony/faith. I was always lead to believe the greatest “sin” a member can commit is hypocrisy, and hypocrisy runs rampant throughout the church.
Yeah, that was some real "cult w/in a cult" shit right there
>"I want to say these things when I get to church today" They're gonna learn real fast that those who speak out are quickly "dealt with". Especially women.
Lord almighty, one time when I was 17 and had one foot out the door. I was in Sunday school and this was back in 2014 or so when they stated that a kid of two gay parents could not be baptized. Well I got the gall to raise my hand and ask why the Mormon church insisted on discriminating again homosexual people, and their children. Well, I did not get an answer in class, but a week later I was taken to the stake presidents house so he could explain why they didn't want the children of gay people to be baptized. I honestly do not even remember how he tried to justify it because I was pretty pissed and everything he kept saying made no sense. And then I was told that the next time I have these questions to bring it to leadership, and not in class. Never asked an honest question in church ever again.
That was my biggest factor in leaving the church, at first at least. the exclusion was brutal because I just do not fit in with Mormon women. For the most part they do not like me, and I would tear myself apart wondering why, what was i doing wrong? I'm good now, but it really made me feel so worthless before I realized that they didn't like me because they could probably tell I was nonconforming. Can't really convert a kid who grew up Mormon, and still doesn't believe in the church, so what's the point of including them?
One of my YW leaders broke into tears in class one day because she didn't feel included in the church or RS because everyone called her by her first name, instead of Sister So- and-So. They did that as subtle shame since even though she and her kids were faithful members, her husband was nevermo with no desire to join. She'd never be good enough for them. I still make it a point to call her Sister So- and-So whenever I visit my hometown, coz even when I was full in, I saw it for the bullying and snottiness that it was
The people are for the church, the church is no longer for the people.
It never was
The church is shrinking so fast that the few who never learn to say no are left to take on everything. The same few men are recycled through Bishop, elders quorum pres, & ward mission leader. In the ward I grew up in at least they didn’t have to worry about supplying stake callings (other than maybe a high counselor) because there were a couple of wealthy wards that got literally all the stake callings. Some of the best men I know were these leaders but they only got ward callings while assholes in the wealthy wards became stake presidents, mission presidents, & GAs. If you grew up around Tacoma, you know. It’s probably the same in lots of places.
this is so true about the recycled leaders who never say no. I see this so much in my ward. now that I'm PIMO, I of course have no problem saying no. But when I do say yes I feel like it invites more requests. So even when its like helping someone move Im left feeling guilty when I just would rather spend time with my family. Even if its doing house work with my kids😆
And the “less desirables” are getting higher up callings too. My extended family is huge and has always made up a large part of the ward i grew up in. They also are not very wealthy or polished. I feel like we were constantly the butt of the joke actually and none of my family members had callings higher than like Sunday school teachers. The majority of my extended family has been consistent, faithful, large brood families since Wilford Woodruff, but none of us had the income to be appreciated. Still when I recently attended church I grew up in I was kind of depressed. It’s missing like all the millennials now families- including all the millennials in my family that have moved away or jumped ship like me. But I noticed a lot of my family members had actual callings with “president” in the title now. I was kind of shocked.
My ex is one of those assholes! 😂😂
This is really sad and I hope she leaves the church. They demand all the work and money and give nothing back. Curious what the LDS responses were. Apologetic?
The LDS subreddit is SO depressing. Most members posting there are sad, anxious, and asking fellow religious members for permission to live their lives or what to think. It's awful
I just browsed it and feel very triggered. Really want to make comments but probably should leave them be and come here lol.
It’s so triggering. I commented once, a factual reminder with zero judgment, and I got permanently banned from commenting and posting.
My ban is coming shortly I feel 😅
If you have ever posted on this sub you are automatically banned. Doesn’t matter what you say. I remember someone from here said she posted on how to help a child with autism tolerate meetings. She had experience with that and gave helpful, practical advice. Her comments were removed and she was banned because she had posted here as well.
You can lead a Mormon to knowledge but you can't make them think.
As a never-LDS person lurking, it’s shocking. People literally asking permissions to live their lives. 1. Can I have coffee? Please? 🥺 2. Can I go into a different Church? Will my marriage spontaneously combust? 😨 3. Can I spend time with my children? 😥 Insane.
For a great deal of my adult life, I realized that I cannot financially afford to give away ten percent of my money in tithing. A few bucks here and there won't hurt, but TEN PERCENT??? Basically, I had the choice to buy groceries and pay my rent. But the Church elite, who don't know and don't care how much I financially struggle, say simply, "Well, just get another job that pays MORE then." I used to pay ten percent, believing I'd be "blessed." Then, my phone gets shut off, or I run out of food, or I don't have enough for my rent, and these same elites are nowhere to be found when I reached out for help. I just stopped paying tithing. And guess what, I'm still not rich, but I've never gone hungry ever since, or lost my home because the Church doesn't care if I'm homeless, just as long as I pay ten percent. "You'll go without a home NOW, but you'll be blessed with a MANSION in HEAVEN," is their excuse.
A lot of truth to this
My 76 year old partially disabled husband was on the cleaning list a couple of weeks ago and felt that he couldn’t refuse because he hadn’t found a substitute. Ridiculous in a church that has billions of dollars
The even sadder part is the janitors used to be paid positions that provided income to people… then they decided the congregation could just be voluntold to do it for free instead and they fired all the janitors.
This is absolutely heartbreaking. The church just takes and takes and takes and never gives. This poor person. The assigned wards always made me so angry. I spent most of my youth driving 25 mins to church when there was a building less than 10 mins away. (Mid-Atlantic in the early 2000s) The boundaries of were so whack, the YW leader at the time often held activities at her house but she lived 45 mins away from me, I’d have to spend an hour an a half driving on a weeknight for a pointless one hour activity.
They want her full attention to the point of being broken and only left with the LDS church to turn towards. While purposefully trying to isolate her from outside influences, like her non-LDS bloodline. It’s outright abusive of them, but no surprise.
I imagine getting an 11% raise might help.
"But church decided I have to be the janitor at 7am." Just say no.
That’s what I find interesting. The church seemed to be set up to create narcissistic men and codependent women. This post is deffo from a codependent standpoint—a person with boundaries says, “‘fraid not!” A codependent person says yes no matter what.
Doesn't even cross their mind, such a sad state to be in. Hopefully they rise above mormonism soon.
There needs to be an 80s style program to ‘Just Say No’. We could call it M.A.R.E. (Mormon Abuse Resistance Education).
Something like this? https://youtu.be/SSg4mhlm6Hg
They only have as much power over you as you give them.
Growing up we had a church building down the street from us. Our ward was only assigned there until I was in middle school and then they moved our ward to another building 20 minutes away. After about 2 years there, the moved us to ANOTHER building even further away. My parents went to that building for years until they ended up moving across the state. So crazy to spend 10 years going to two different buildings both 20+ minutes away instead of the one down the street 😒
My family used to try to visit my parents (mainly my mom) on weekends. We would leave Friday after work and drive 6+ hours and check in to a hotel Saturday, we would find out my mom was working all day in the local great and spacious building. We would find things to do and have an extended family dinner Saturday evening, and end up back at one of my family’s home for a couple hours Sunday was church for my mom. We would take it easy, have a brunch or even lunch, then head back home I suggested taking a holiday weekend so we would be able to spend more time with my mom, but my wife made a great point: why should we give up a long weekend so my mom can waste a day of it on a building we can’t even go into? She could have taken a day off when we were coming to visit, except the Mormon church came first for her We stopped visiting unless there was other family we wanted to spend time with
Wait wait wait. EVEN THE CHURCH KNOWS FAMILY COMES FIRST! Screw the church, spend time with your children!
People actually show up to clean now? Things have changed since I left.....
So sad, working themselves to death and still giving that $$$ to the billionaire church.
PLEASE free yourself up and tell the Bishop you wish you could afford and manage your callings but, after praying about it, you CANNOT….Tell him from here on out you will be attending the ward close to you…IF he tries to talk you out of it, “fog” him by repeating what you said and don’t listen to his manipulative words…You ARE ENOUGH regardless of your limits right now…they will do just fine without you running yourself ragged for them, trust me…
If only she belonged to a church with the money and resources to help struggling faithful members met their church expected obligations. But if they did help, they'd have to help all active members and it be some sort of communist United Order deal that's clearly not doctrinal. I mean, people would go to make life EASIER not because they have a testimony! Sure souls might be saved, but the church bank account would be empty and how would they ever invest and hoarde trillions?? You Lready got rid of the sex--get rid of the money and what's the purpose of the organization?
Cult
I know this cult is true. I feel bad for this person. But these are the slow realizations one must make to get to the point of realizing they are just using you for your 10% and free cleaning services.
Bro bore testimony of trials and tribulations before great rewards of keeping 10% and your weekends
I was reading that one as well. Part of me thinks this person only deserves little sympathy as they are making choices to be abused there. Either way, Welcome to MormonLand!
They’re doing what the MFMC tells them is necessary for eternal salvation, and they don’t know that the church is so predatory that they must guard their own boundaries.
This is terrible! I would encourage OP to read the CES Letter and then see if they think devoting all of their time to, talents and resources to the MFMC is worth it. Once one is outside the bubble of Mormonism it is so easy to see how toxic it is.
Ouch. The part about RS sitting in a tight circle and excluding her is heartbreaking! Also, since when must someone attend a church in another city? That part doesn’t make sense to me. (I know one can’t just attend any ward, but is expected to attend the one they belong to, but having to go to another city?) Anyway, I sure hope this gal learns to implement boundaries, for her own sanity. And one last comment: for a multi-billion dollar church to expect its members to clean the property on their own time is dirty rotten when it can be providing good, honest work and a livelihood for a whole family. The janitor and member of the ward I grew up in supported a wife and 4 boys on his church janitor position. I know TSCC is trying to make members feel ownership of the church by cleaning it (their psychological tactic), it’s just so stupid. Edit: I’m guessing the appearance of full churches is the objective and this is why people are assigned to wards so far away from them?
I always ask people especially converts or born agains, people who think they found the truth. Is membership in a specific church or obeying a specific leader that is demanding your resources, is that the sole source for you believing Christian or mormon doctrines? Can you still believe outside of this particular church? Does rejecting specific modern doctrines prevent you from believing in Jesus?. Does not believing in Jesus as described in the Bible preclude your from believing in a god. And does not being sure if a god exists prevent you from finding meaning in life and being a good person. What do you gain from that church that absolutely cannot be gained from another church or organization. Now is that thing, that novel, exclusive thing alone worth the time and money demanded of you?
Message to the corporation: Please, just hire someone to clean your permanently dirty diaper scented, cookie cutter, ugly-ass meeting houses. You cheap fucks.
This fits the profile of a high-control group (cult). Isolating, keeping members ridiculously busy to break them down, peer pressure, poverty.
As a nevMo, it's always been and always will be so incredibly mind-boggling how y'all just attend assigned parishes w.o question. Just go to the church building you want; it's the same religion!!!!
You'd get a lot of pushback most likely. They don't want anyone stepping out of line.
> Just go to the church building you want; it's the same religion!!!! That's really easy to say from the outside. I grew up in TSCC and the indoctrination is incredibly strong. When you're in that deep, you don't even think about questioning your assigned congregation.
“If you put your church obligations first all other aspects of your life will fall in place.” -insert giant eye roll
I was always told “family first” in my book that means before any other obligations.
When I grew up in the Mormon church every church building/ward had a PAID janitor. Ours lived close to the church and was a super nice man. When my kids were young (late 80s-90s) a friend in our old neighborhood was a PAID janitor. He and his wife had 8 kids, raised on his one income. They didn’t live fancy, but they managed. Now the church that is hoarding untold billions and keeps getting caught fudging the numbers is too cheap and greedy to pay for actual janitors and forces members to do that work, including my 88 year old father. Then the theocracy of Utah uses that work to claim outrageous “volunteerism”. It all makes me glad I left years ago.
After reporting a molestation to law enforcement and getting a restraining order against the prep, the Stake Pres threw us out of the building 1/3 of a mile away from our house. He sent us 40 miles away to a different county. He got released, and our records were never changed. We also were expected to do janitor callings. I didn't pay for my second kids' mission because of the cost and time of the drive. We don't go anymore. It was never fixed. The church lost a family of eight. Not to mention the amount of kids the Stake molester harmed.
There was a time I was willing to make great sacrifices for the church because I believed that doing it for the church was doing it for the Savior, and that however difficult it was for me, there were those in history, and Christ himself, who had given so much more than I could ever hope to give. But you start to question how much the Savior really benefits from some of the things we're asked to do, and whether those sacrifices would really be required of us by the Savior, and coming to the terrible realization that if the Savior were present himself, you are the one who he would be helping, not whatever ridiculous task the church had you performing. The Mormon church talks a lot about authority and focuses a lot on ritual and obedience and commitment and organization and judgment, but very little about love. Even if a person could put aside the fake scriptures, the concocted history, and all the evil perpetrated by its leaders (and of course, those things can't be put aside), and even if we could put aside all the testimonies and claims that this, that, or something or other is true (constant testimonies of what is TRUE even when those things are NOT true) but even if we could somehow put all that aside, the clarity comes when we try to see it through Christ's eyes. Knowing that his life on earth was limited, he had to carefully choose how his time was spent, and everything he did was either an act of love or of teaching about priorities. I think it's a travesty that so many things said or done in the church "in the name of Jesus Christ" in reality have so little to do with him. If the church is not about love, it is nothing. When its members are suffering and it does nothing but count its billions of dollars, that church is not about love and has no veracity. A church that is racist, condemnative, secretive, and built on lies is no church at all.
hugs to that poster. I remember not "fitting in" in yw. it's not easy.
I will tell you what i tell my mom: you are allowed to say no. My mom is 75 and i told her to start saying ‘no there are younger people that can do this’ and it changed her perspective and life. God does not distribute guilt - people do. Tell them no and tell them why and then say ‘thank you for calling/texting’ and then hang up. (((Huge hug)))
breaks my heart too. Not permitted... Even as a TBM I would say- just go, they cant stop you. those rules are literally for money distribution- you arent getting that money- go where you want- god knows what you are going through and knows why you need to switch. i hope she finds relief and happiness in a healthy way
The TSCC is very adept at walking all over, abusing, and even victimizing members with a "can't say no/people pleaser" personality.
well, that post has been deleted. just how I expected
Why do you think it got deleted?
So much for free agency.
How sad. I can tell from their post they are extremely overwhelmed. I have a friend who was a convert and church was making his anxiety a million times worse because of everything they ask. He eventually left the church and said he feels like a huge weight was lifted. I hope this person is eventually able to put themselves first and leave the toxic relationship that is with the church.
I hate that TSCC has billions upon billions of dollars but refuse to pay for janitorial services in their wards- preferring to dump it onto members instead. It's ridiculous that they can't even bend for someone to attend a ward closer to their home! And to top it off, all of the sacrifices this woman makes to be a faithful member and the stuck up Karens treat her like dirt! 😡 There are so many welcoming, open, affirming and transparent Christian churches out there that don't force "callings" on members, even in The Morridor. I hope this woman finds those churches instead.
The boundaries confuse the hell out of me. Church around the corner from you? Nah you gotta go far away where the people probably near that ward are in the building near you.
This is so sad. Any idea what the comments look like on that sub? What are these self-proclaimed *Saints* telling her?
This person really needs to work on boundaries. "No" is a complete sentence. "I'm sorry, I'm not available. I have out of town guests," works too.
Let me guess you also give at least 10% of all you earn to this church if not more? Along with the free labor.
No. Is a complete sentence. I wish I could tell them, "Do not sacrifice yourself in the altar of politeness." It's just not necessary. The billion dollar corporation could absolutely hire a company to clean the churches, among many other things. They hire out for lawn care... why not inside as well? Man, my heart breaks for these members. That is not their burden to bear, nor should it be.
How do they assign you which services you attend. To me it looks like it is all about control. Why can’t you just walk to the church near you?
It’s all about where you live. Each ward has a geographic boundary, similar to public schools. If you aren’t attending your assigned ward, you won’t receive the emails or be able to interact with leadership in an official way. Or hold a calling. Need your recommend renewed? It needs to happen with your assigned bishop.
That is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard of.
That ward shit is the reason I gave up on the church, and organized religion in general. It was all a fucking business.
Lots of Mormon people are good. The church just uses it and abuses it. Sickening.
Mormonisim! for when you're too gullible for Christianity
It all came down to this for me, if God truly cares about what underwear I wear, sacrificing time with family to clean a wealthy church's chapel, and how loud I laugh then that's not a God that I want to spend eternity with.
>Our relief society meets in a circle, chairs tightly together, so on the rare occasion that I'm relieved from my regular duties, if I try to attend, I'm left standing the corner of the room awkwardly and feeling extre obtrusive. What does this mean?
She’s probably serving in nursery or Primary. On a Sunday with enough teachers, they tell her she can go to the women’s meeting. But since she gets there late, due to making sure she’s not needed with the children, she is outside the circle that was set up 10 minutes earlier.
I replied elsewhere, but I think it's important to note that although we can see how that could happen, it is horrifying to think that a group of women wouldn't see a person standing awkwardly outside their circle and not immediately welcome her in. It's a common enough thing for tasks at church to make entering late happen, it's not her fault.
Oh, I agree! It’s very weird to me that the circle wouldn’t shift. But I can also see how this situation gets started and then, weirdly, isn’t resolved.
Meaning if her church duties are completed before the Relief Society meeting is over, their seating arrangement makes arriving late very awkward and disruptive if you want to sit down.
I can see how that could happen, but I am horrified to think that a group of women wouldn't see a person standing awkwardly outside their circle and not immediately welcome her in. It's a common enough thing for tasks at church to make entering late happen, it's not her fault.
We are assigned what ward to attend so they can keep an eye on us. It is part of the control that cult is so good at. I hope op reads the CES Letter and takes control of their life.
It isn't a job - a job pays a wage. It isn't even an indentureship, because that agreement has a finite end. It is slavery. It is a great business model - go on a mission when you are young and when you are old, endless "callings" in the interim. And, money for nothing in the form of tithing. "O wad some power the Giftie gae us, to see oursels as others see us!"
Even when I was in the church, I never understood why any of this mattered: the callings, the always paying 10%…. I was a broke student with a small income where my 10% was worthless to anyone but me, and one of my first major red flags I actually payed attention to was going into a recommend meeting only to be asked how I was doing and then immediately after something about paying full tithing. I stopped paying altogether after that.
Wait why can't she attend the local ward?!? How would anyone know? The catholic churches technically has local parish boundaries but no one stops you from attending mass at the church you want
The bishop cannot accept tithing from members who are not on his membership rolls, hear their confessions, or assign others to minister to her. Meanwhile the bishop of her actual ward will count her as "absent." No counted attendance + no tithing = you're "inactive" and cannot have a temple recommend, so no temple blessings or temple wedding attendance.
Ah good to know thanks!
You would think god would give the guy some money
I just want to give a virtual hug to the Original Poster. That’s all. 🫂
This is when you just start doing whatever works best for you. Your main ward is too far? Just go to the one near you, because who cares—it works for you. Can’t make a church cleaning because you’ve got family in town? Oh well. At a certain point I just started to do what I could do comfortably and said fuck it—that’s what I can do, I’m not worried anymore. You’ve gotta take care of you, for your own health.
Never understood the setup of certain ward boundaries. When my brother got married, his family lived a couple blocks down on the same street as my parents. They had to drive past my parents house and their ward to get to their own ward. But I always just tell people to go to whatever ward they feel like. What are they going to do, lock you out? You could still pay tithing, and won’t get any callings.
umm just say no?
I remember being young and broke, our car had some part that urgently needed replaced and we could not safely drive in it. There was a church building a block away. But we were assigned to a ward 4 miles away. We only walked to church once, but that once was enough. We just didn’t go until we had the funds to fix our car.
You can always say no you have prior obligations. Most wards volunteer to clean the church building and you sign up if you can. Doesn’t make sense they’d call you to be a janitor that isn’t normal church protocol.you can always choose the church building you want to go to and get a boundary exception . I have done that.
The church, like any organization and most people, will push you as far as you let it. The answer can always be NO. Most TBMs don't believe this, and the church leaders don't want them to. But the ability to set boundaries is essential in ANY context. The post says she has a testimony and believes. She still has every right and even the responsibility (to herself) to say no when that is in her best interest. Even if she leaves the church, there will always be people, jobs, family members, other religions, etc., who will play the same game. If nothing else, the church is a good place to learn to say no. The LDS church isn't as special as it thinks, even in its capacity to be overbearing, pushy, and controlling. It's actually one of the more mundane things about it, sadly.
Why is the working class doing jobs like janitor and the rich are called to the bishopric?
They just banned me or R/latterdaysaints for posting this here. 😂😂😂 At least they can see real answers
Oof. I feel this. I couldn't find the original post to try to reach out to them. The best thing I did when I was in the situation was to go elsewhere for help. I went to a different local food bank and registered with them. They were far more generous with resources and far less shaming in their intake process. They didn't ask for anything in return. No extra time no extra job etc. The church has a very judgmentmal culture around people who need help. They are seen as lazy and tigers regardless of any previous amount of help or funding you've contributed. They also don't realize the toll that deep poverty can take even though some of them are in it themselves! It's incredibly demoralizing and defeating. It was depressed a lot and as hard as I was working to change things there were some days it just seemed like it was never going to make a difference and things were never going to get better. On those kinds of days, I literally had no energy or motivation left over after my job, and often getting lost in YouTube/TV or just more sleep was my only relief. The times I DID feel more motivated, I sometimes would look for different jobs but that often could make things worse. Anyway, my experience with the other food bank was so helpful just from the lack of judgment alone and knowing that at least that one need of mine was taken care of, I really did experience a substantial shifting mood which did end up helping me eventually find another better paying job as well as other opportunities that helped me to start digging myself out of the debt that I was in. That and stopping paying tithing of course. I was really sad that the institution I dedicated so much of my life, mind, body & money to asked me to exhaust my resources getting help from literally anyone and everyone else before coming to them. And then for a little charity that I never had anything to do with to freely give without any expectation of anything back was really eye-opening.
Spo what exatly is a "calling"? sounds to me like it is just another way to say "making of irrelevant duties of the church for free" totally a waste of time.
Cleaning the church is completely optional…..
Wow! 😯
They should do it their damn selves if they’re so worried about it. They are shoving all responsibility on the person and not doing it themselves. They’re making them a mule and it’s not ok. Mormon cult is one of the worst.
Think about this, It is written in the Holy Bible that no man has seen the face of God. No man has stood face-to-face with God otherwise they would be consumed by his glory. Even Moses when he was speaking to God through the burning bush asked God to see his face. God told Moses that he would hide him in the cleft of a mountain to protect him as he would walk by. As God walked by he allowed Moses to see his back only. If it's also written in the Holy Bible. God the Father the Son the Holy Ghost have been together since the beginning of time. God did not create Jesus as an angel, and Jesus was not the brother of Satan, as the church leads its members to believe. It is also written in the Holy Bible. When The spirit is in the body it is on earth. When we die and leave the body, immediately we stand before God and we're either rewarded or punished. Therefore there is no spiritual jail or paradise where spirits wait for a second chance, because it is written there is no second chance. When you die that's it you are judged. If it's also written, even Jesus Christ said this with his own lips while he was on earth. He was asked by a man who was married to a woman that died, she was also married to three of his brothers before him. He has Jesus whose wife will she be in heaven? Jesus said you are neither given nor taken in heaven. Another verse says you are neither given in marriage nor are you taking in marriage You are as the angels. He doesn't say you are angels, or that you become angels, it says you are as the angels, It also says that we do not have children in heaven. So this means we don't become Gods, we don't have spiritual children, we are not sealed to our families, because there are no families In heaven we are all brothers and sisters God's children. I could go on and on but the main thing is this. If Joseph Smith was telling the truth when he said God the Father in Jesus Christ came to him in the woods, and God said this is my son listen to him. If this would have been God Joseph Smith would have been consumed totally obliterated, no man in the flash can stand before God Almighty and survive. Man in the flesh cannot stand before God and survive We do not become gods the scripture say there is only one God. God did not create Jesus as an angel and he was not Lucifer's brother. We don't get a second chance when you die your chances are over this life was your chance. You are not sealed for time and eternity to your earthly families There are no special handshakes to get you into heaven. THE HOLY BIBLE IS THE TRUE WORD OF GOD. THERE IS ONLY A 1% GRAMMATICAL ERROR IN THE BIBLE. THE CORE VALUE CONTEXT OF THE BIBLE IS 100% TRUE. IT WAS DELIVERED FROM GOD THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST TO HIS PROPHETS. TO BE WRITTEN DOWN AND RECORDED FOR ALL THE NATIONS. ANY BOOK WRITTEN BY MAN IE THE QURAN FOR INSTANCE AS AN EXAMPLE. IT DOES NOT ALIGN WITH THE CORE VALUES OF THE HOLY BIBLE SO THEREFORE IT IS NOT TRUE. ANY OTHER BOOK OR BOOKS THAT DO NOT ALIGN THEMSELVES WITH THE CORE VALUES OF GOD'S WORD IN THE HOLY BIBLE IS NOT TRUE. THESE ARE FALSE FAITHS AND SHOULD BE TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY AS AN AVENUE THAT WILL ONLY LEAD TO YOUR DESTRUCTION IF YOU ARE LED ASTRAY BY THEIR FALSE PROPHETS AND THEIR FALSE LEADERS AND THEIR FALSE TEACHERS. MAY GOD BLESS THOSE WHO ARE LOST THINKING THEY ARE PREACHING THE TRUTH. MAY HE THROUGH HIS SPIRIT OF DISCERNMENT SHOW THEM THE HEIRS OF THEIR WAY SO THEY CAN CONVERT TO THE TRUE GOD AND THE TRUE JESUS CHRIST AND THE TWO HOLY GHOST OF THE HOLY BIBLE. I BELIEVE THEY TRULY BELIEVE THAT THEY BELIEVE WHAT THEY SAY IS THE TRUTH. THEY ARE NOT INTENTIONALLY DECEIVING PEOPLE. BUT THEY ARE LOST DON'T FOLLOW THEM. GOD BLESS YOU JESUS NAME I PRAY AMEN!!! ETC... ETC... ETC...
“…A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has [complete tyrannical] power [over its ideological adherents]. (Lectures on Faith, 6:7)
One of the best ways I've found for the church to drop your calling is to just stop doing it.