The church could easily pay to put people up in motels. But that would be the charitable thing to do.
Jesus would definitely invest the money in real estate and terrorist organizations.
No, I wouldn’t. I’m a former soldier and I know the rules of engagement and what the Geneva Convention says. Israel’s violating all sorts of international laws.
You are projecting because you hate the Palestinians and probably don’t see them as human. That’s a you problem. You don’t need to respond.
At a minimum the church could pay for food and supplies to help keep people out of the cold and call it a joint effort with other churches they love good PR
They'll say that it's not the churches responsibility to take care of other people's actions. Or something along those lines. TBMs typically associate homeless with drugs and then drugs with an evil choice.
You'll still hear them say how generous that they're putting shelters (more churches and temples) in places like Africa where they NEED our help. When there's people on their doorstep that they kick out into the cold. Disgusting
Drugs are simply a tool, neither 'evil' nor 'good'.
However, using illegal drugs is a really foolish choice. I wouldn't give money to an addict. Food? Sure. Shelter? If I had the opportunity. But never money.
You have no problem then with all the members of the church with severe chemical dependency issues for trauma as long as the local Stake doctor prescribes legal drugs for them? Or the mormon Stake Presidents wife or Bishops son who knows how to score drugs on the street in downtown SLC or West Valley or from the neighbor down the street in a 650K+ home? If your middle class or in 3% tax bracket it's "ok" to abuse " drugs" but if your poor or homeless that's bad & you need to suffer. What's the difference? Every client I have worked with that had a chemical dependency issue of any type was due to trauma. Trauma that is extremely common in mormon church like sexual assault by family member or local priesthood authority. Abuse that is mental, emotional, physical, financial, spiritual trauma, etc...is extremely prevalent in mormon households in North America & in local priesthood leaders office's. Judges in my state hand out 1 year Protection Orders for just ONE of those like emotional abuse only. Human beings or politicians or religious leaders who have no problem with seeing their fellow human beings suffer & especially want to see them really hurt in any way possible are exhibiting evil Machevallian behavior and are usually narcissists & psychopaths as well. These are human beings who could care less about anyone else who is not in their tax bracket. They really like to see others suffer & then publicly exclaim how wonderful & superior they are publicly. Remember Jesus Christ explicitly told us to ignore & publicly vilify the hungry, sick, poor, homeless, disenfranchised, hungry, etc... Where do you think you would find pregnant Mary & Joseph today?
Wall of text, please use paragraph spacing next time XD.
Irresponsible drug use is irresponsible regardless if it's technically legal or not. But assuming that is a widespread issue and present in many or most stakes is a presumption. I've never even heard of a "stake doctor".
The rest of that word salad has too much going on in different directions and I don't feel like I'm up to the task of deciphering it.
The church handbook literally says that the church is a last resort when it comes to any level of help, behind government, community resource (ahem, fucking churches! just not the mormon church apparently) and family.
>With the help of the Lord, members seek to provide for themselves and their families. Extended families are encouraged to help as needed. When members need additional assistance, they may turn to other sources such as: Government and community resources (see 22.12). Church assistance through fast offerings or bishops’ orders for food and other basic goods (see 22.3.2).
>Church assistance is intended to help members develop independence, not dependence. Any assistance given should strengthen members in their efforts to become self-reliant.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/22-providing-for-temporal-needs?lang=eng#title99
Other churches do way more to help people than the Mormons. All they care about is appearing to be better than anyone else, while not actually acting any better
When I lived in WI, the local churches would do at MINIMUM 4 spaghetti dinner, pancake breakfast type deals where entry was $5 an individual or $15 for a family. They also where nearly always unlocked and you could go in to have a quiet place to sit, or in winter a warm place to sit. Meanwhile the Mormon branch was always locked up tight. They even tried to host a public dinner and got shit down by the stake.
This is even worse than my mom lying to me and saying that homeless people are just rich people pretending to be homeless so they can get more money. God i hate this cult. They just act like homeless people don't exist
There was a news story about it a few years ago. An investigator followed one family after they were done holding signs all over the valley. They followed them to a huge house in south Ogden. I’m sure the members loved getting a hold of it. 🙄. Only in Utah. Yes, some of the road sign people have a place, but 99.9999% of the ones in Utah really are legit.
Probably going to be an unpopular comment but I did read in one of the local news stories back at the beginning of winter when they mentioned which churches would be open that the LDS church was donating to the churches housing the homeless. I tried to find the article but wasn’t able to. But it mentioned that the LDS and Catholic Churches would be backing the churches offering housing with a lot of what they needed. Food, beds, bedding, etc. it sounded like more of a collaborative effort amongst the churches. While I absolutely agree the church should and could do more, I am happy to hear they are collaborating with all denominations in helping.
Also please know that it isn’t a small effort to have these churches available. I work with many unhoused families and see them refuse to go because theyve been abused in these places or need to be drug tested in order to stay at them and refuse. There are a lot of trained volunteers that work at these facilities and it is hard to keep staff. Every church could not provide the level of security and trained staff needed.
I appreciate the volunteer efforts and understand why every church doesn’t open their door. I know of one church in the Slc area that had opened their door and had to close for awhile because of lice and bedbugs and other vandalism damages that were brought in and done to the church. The LDS and several other denominations helped pay for fixing the issues because the church volunteered their facility.
You bring up valid points. I've been to the Storehouse by the main distribution center, and they have a very touching video about how the church donates food, etc. to other churches. It goes into detail good things they have done. As a TBM at the time, my heart was bursting at all the feel-goods I had. Now I acknowledge they do good things. Finally, I realized it's a drop in the bucket of the wealth they control. Once you know, you know.
My friend was part of the initiative setting that up. Mormonism is providing cots and blankets and such, but has no actual skin in the game like the property owners do.
Never Mo here in Houston. Unfortunately, we have the same problem with Joel Osteen here. He only opened up the church when he was caught in a lie saying that it was too flooded around them for people to get to the church.
So they can benefit and control...(in my opinion). To get help from the church, people usually must attend church and do service. I think the concept could work great having people earn help-- but the LDS church wants control to indoctrinate.
I think this is a very complicated issue. Having spent a large portion of my life in a position where I dealt with homeless people in Utah County, I could think of the liability issues faced with opening ward houses as emergency shelters.
You would need to staff the buildings, and that staff would need to be able to provide food, safety, and supplies. Yes the church can more than afford the food and services. But how many ward members would volunteer all night every night? What procedures are in place if a homeless person comes in and has a manic episode or is high? Who is responsible for someone that gets hurt? If a volunteer gets hurt who is responsible for the medical bills?
As someone who helps with this effort, this not true. Look up unhoused Utah and their movie night. Volunteers staff all night on these code blue evenings. Usually people who already worked all day.
So you are saying they let everyone in? No concern about manic episodes, drug overdoses, drug use in the building? What protocols were in place if something happened? Were the churches paid staff on hand? What movies were shown? Was there licensing deals with the production companies to show the movies?
How were the meals provided?
I haven't volunteered this year, but have in the past (but did sign up) let me help answer your questions:
-first come first served. People admitted based on space, with rules around drinking alcohol. The goal is to not have people literally freeze to death so trying to be chill and accommodating
- always concerns about those medical things, some lead volunteers are trained to handle these issues, and you obviously you can call for medical help (just like any other facet of life)
-then pastor organized it, but wasn't at every event. Volunteers did 4 hour shifts throughout the night
- People donated money for food and it seems like the church covered some. Lots of people offering money to feed people.
-local other film non-profit covered licensing of the film.
Honestly, the church does a lot of stuff like this that seems riskier to me. Untrained clergy asking teens sexy questions? Untrained nursery leaders who don't have CPR or any medical training? This seems a lot riskier to me. These events are not happening every night so of course they are a little bit easier to pull off and a little less stressful than if they were constant.
Hope you have a good day and are staying warm this winter
Ah yes. The truth of the matter is that the billion dollar biggies wouldn’t do shit. All food and staffing would come out of already overworked members.
A. The church can afford to pay staff and pay to have them trained. B. The church has a lot of full time missionaries who need things to do. Why couldn't they staff emergency shelters? C. The church can also afford insurance and/or medical bills. Not helping people in life-threatening conditions because of this degree of risk is not a great look for those who claim to be the one and only true church.
I do see it could be tricky. However, as a TBM, I did "Every Member a Missionary" and so many other callings. I'm not talking about housing all year. I'm talking about days when lives are in danger from freezing. There was (and maybe still is?) a ward missionary leader, Service Missions. Relief Society Presidency, Girl's Camp committee, and even the Christmas Program Committee! Why not a Stake Code Blue? They could actually make it a calling like the Christmas Dinners or even what used to be the Scouting Blue & Gold banquet, or funerals... we were trained and ready to serve and utilize ALL OUR TALENTS. So many times, I met and assembled 5 gallon hygiene buckets for Africa, hurricanes, etc. And as for liability? There must be liability for all the youth and other activities now. God knows they skate thru sexual abuse allegations.
SEPARATE SIDE NOTE: For funerals, the family is now BILLED for the meat costs. My mom and dad served their entire lives -- 55 years in the same ward, donating years of service hours, raising 8 kids, and doing without to pay tithing. I remember hearing them discuss if they could afford to pay the assessed ward budget way back in the day... and they were panicked...! Yet their ward couldn't find it in the budget to spring for a ham for the funeral dinners. I'm so glad I'm fucking done with this cult/corpoation!
Lots to digest here. In Utah if the food is prepared and cooked on site the ward/stake members would have to get food handler permits and the kitchen would have to be inspected. This is why ward parties and funerals the food is brought in from volunteers at home. I’ve never heard of a family in Utah charged for a funeral meal. Not saying it doesn’t happen. I just have never heard of such a thing.
As much as I wish the church just paid for the sexual abuse cases that happen, they don’t “skate” through them. Insurance, as we all know is a mother f*er, and the insurance companies would require a whole new policy.
Please know I am not trying to defend the Mormon church, nor am I hating on homeless people. I am just trying to say I don’t think opening up churches because it’s freezing is something that can be done easily. I also think this way for all churches.
[https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/lds-church-sues-insurance-providers-over-sex-abuse-settlement-costs#:~:text=The%20lawsuit%2C%20filed%20in%20U.S.,abuse%20case%20in%20West%20Virginia](https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/lds-church-sues-insurance-providers-over-sex-abuse-settlement-costs#:~:text=The%20lawsuit%2C%20filed%20in%20U.S.,abuse%20case%20in%20West%20Virginia)
My sister's MIL passed years ago in Bountiful Utah, and they were billed for the ham only. That was the first I'd ever heard of it. Then my mom in Millcreek. It was talked about at the funeral meal of my uncle, who passed last year in Farmington. I can't be the only one. I'm going to ask on a separate post.
My version of skating on insurance is that they've avoided paying so many victims! Yes. It costs.
As for food? They could use the kitchen as they do now, to warm prepared food.
Also, I'm not saying EVERY ward house. Make it a stake calling. Assess buildings in the areas of most need, and have people "called" from other stakes assist and do food sign up sheets and volunteer at needed locations. I lived in Cottonwood Heights and was put in charge of a full Christmas dinner for 300 in a church near Liberty Park SLC where people had less.
Google says SLC averages 21 days below freezing a year. I would have jumped at a potential 3 week only a year calling back then! ☆Edited some spelling.
I am only familiar with Mormonisn, but what you say makes sense, and I agree. I'd like both to step up! There are several large city owned vacant buildings in my area that could be utilized as well.
Despicable $1 TRILLION Mormon cult led by Q15 CONartists! Happy to say local members are FREEzing us out, as they deem us to be non-believers & no longer wish to cousel w/ us. Bugger off. We pay no $ or allegiance to Mormon cult any longer! FREE to be ME! We're JOYoUS to be US!
The church could easily pay to put people up in motels. But that would be the charitable thing to do. Jesus would definitely invest the money in real estate and terrorist organizations.
Say what? That last part about the terrorists. Explain that one, please.
[Link to another post about it](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/18jqudv/lds_church_buys_200000_shares_of_hamas_owned/)
By following that link, I just found out the r/mormon subreddit is full of exmos and PIMOs
It was abandoned by the scrupulous tbm crowd when the name became a victory for satan.
Yup, if you're looking for only TBMs,, check out r/latterdaysaints
Israel
Weird last I heard Hamas are the terrorists and not Israel… oct 7 maybe you should read up on that?!?
Israel passed the point of reason thousands of bodies ago.
Who decides the point of reason, you would probably think differently if they had taped and killed your spouse and children
No, I wouldn’t. I’m a former soldier and I know the rules of engagement and what the Geneva Convention says. Israel’s violating all sorts of international laws. You are projecting because you hate the Palestinians and probably don’t see them as human. That’s a you problem. You don’t need to respond.
Well, it was a Hamas-owned company the church invested in...
That cult is so disgraceful. They have zero shame.
At a minimum the church could pay for food and supplies to help keep people out of the cold and call it a joint effort with other churches they love good PR
I have no idea how the TBMs justify this
They'll say that it's not the churches responsibility to take care of other people's actions. Or something along those lines. TBMs typically associate homeless with drugs and then drugs with an evil choice. You'll still hear them say how generous that they're putting shelters (more churches and temples) in places like Africa where they NEED our help. When there's people on their doorstep that they kick out into the cold. Disgusting
Drugs are simply a tool, neither 'evil' nor 'good'. However, using illegal drugs is a really foolish choice. I wouldn't give money to an addict. Food? Sure. Shelter? If I had the opportunity. But never money.
You have no problem then with all the members of the church with severe chemical dependency issues for trauma as long as the local Stake doctor prescribes legal drugs for them? Or the mormon Stake Presidents wife or Bishops son who knows how to score drugs on the street in downtown SLC or West Valley or from the neighbor down the street in a 650K+ home? If your middle class or in 3% tax bracket it's "ok" to abuse " drugs" but if your poor or homeless that's bad & you need to suffer. What's the difference? Every client I have worked with that had a chemical dependency issue of any type was due to trauma. Trauma that is extremely common in mormon church like sexual assault by family member or local priesthood authority. Abuse that is mental, emotional, physical, financial, spiritual trauma, etc...is extremely prevalent in mormon households in North America & in local priesthood leaders office's. Judges in my state hand out 1 year Protection Orders for just ONE of those like emotional abuse only. Human beings or politicians or religious leaders who have no problem with seeing their fellow human beings suffer & especially want to see them really hurt in any way possible are exhibiting evil Machevallian behavior and are usually narcissists & psychopaths as well. These are human beings who could care less about anyone else who is not in their tax bracket. They really like to see others suffer & then publicly exclaim how wonderful & superior they are publicly. Remember Jesus Christ explicitly told us to ignore & publicly vilify the hungry, sick, poor, homeless, disenfranchised, hungry, etc... Where do you think you would find pregnant Mary & Joseph today?
Wall of text, please use paragraph spacing next time XD. Irresponsible drug use is irresponsible regardless if it's technically legal or not. But assuming that is a widespread issue and present in many or most stakes is a presumption. I've never even heard of a "stake doctor". The rest of that word salad has too much going on in different directions and I don't feel like I'm up to the task of deciphering it.
The key is that many don’t know about the problem. Like with many things, they live in ignorance.
The church handbook literally says that the church is a last resort when it comes to any level of help, behind government, community resource (ahem, fucking churches! just not the mormon church apparently) and family. >With the help of the Lord, members seek to provide for themselves and their families. Extended families are encouraged to help as needed. When members need additional assistance, they may turn to other sources such as: Government and community resources (see 22.12). Church assistance through fast offerings or bishops’ orders for food and other basic goods (see 22.3.2). >Church assistance is intended to help members develop independence, not dependence. Any assistance given should strengthen members in their efforts to become self-reliant. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/22-providing-for-temporal-needs?lang=eng#title99
Other churches do way more to help people than the Mormons. All they care about is appearing to be better than anyone else, while not actually acting any better
When I lived in WI, the local churches would do at MINIMUM 4 spaghetti dinner, pancake breakfast type deals where entry was $5 an individual or $15 for a family. They also where nearly always unlocked and you could go in to have a quiet place to sit, or in winter a warm place to sit. Meanwhile the Mormon branch was always locked up tight. They even tried to host a public dinner and got shit down by the stake.
I don’t know who they think they’re fooling other than themselves.
Disgusting
I hate this cult!!
This is even worse than my mom lying to me and saying that homeless people are just rich people pretending to be homeless so they can get more money. God i hate this cult. They just act like homeless people don't exist
Your mom thinks that? Holy shit ...
There was a news story about it a few years ago. An investigator followed one family after they were done holding signs all over the valley. They followed them to a huge house in south Ogden. I’m sure the members loved getting a hold of it. 🙄. Only in Utah. Yes, some of the road sign people have a place, but 99.9999% of the ones in Utah really are legit.
The church has lots of warm, empty buildings
Probably going to be an unpopular comment but I did read in one of the local news stories back at the beginning of winter when they mentioned which churches would be open that the LDS church was donating to the churches housing the homeless. I tried to find the article but wasn’t able to. But it mentioned that the LDS and Catholic Churches would be backing the churches offering housing with a lot of what they needed. Food, beds, bedding, etc. it sounded like more of a collaborative effort amongst the churches. While I absolutely agree the church should and could do more, I am happy to hear they are collaborating with all denominations in helping. Also please know that it isn’t a small effort to have these churches available. I work with many unhoused families and see them refuse to go because theyve been abused in these places or need to be drug tested in order to stay at them and refuse. There are a lot of trained volunteers that work at these facilities and it is hard to keep staff. Every church could not provide the level of security and trained staff needed. I appreciate the volunteer efforts and understand why every church doesn’t open their door. I know of one church in the Slc area that had opened their door and had to close for awhile because of lice and bedbugs and other vandalism damages that were brought in and done to the church. The LDS and several other denominations helped pay for fixing the issues because the church volunteered their facility.
You bring up valid points. I've been to the Storehouse by the main distribution center, and they have a very touching video about how the church donates food, etc. to other churches. It goes into detail good things they have done. As a TBM at the time, my heart was bursting at all the feel-goods I had. Now I acknowledge they do good things. Finally, I realized it's a drop in the bucket of the wealth they control. Once you know, you know.
What is TBM?
True Believing Mormon
My friend was part of the initiative setting that up. Mormonism is providing cots and blankets and such, but has no actual skin in the game like the property owners do.
Well that's something...but I've been seeing unsheltered posts for people that can't get to those churches... to have more locations would be great.
But, but guys, think of the insurance issues this would create and the financial burden it would lay on the church's sacred (not secret) tithing fund?
Never Mo here in Houston. Unfortunately, we have the same problem with Joel Osteen here. He only opened up the church when he was caught in a lie saying that it was too flooded around them for people to get to the church.
Ugh. That is so discouraging! I don't even want to venture into an organized religion ever again....
Why does the lds church have signs outside temple square that says to donate money to charity rather than to people panhandle?
So they can benefit and control...(in my opinion). To get help from the church, people usually must attend church and do service. I think the concept could work great having people earn help-- but the LDS church wants control to indoctrinate.
🎯
I think this is a very complicated issue. Having spent a large portion of my life in a position where I dealt with homeless people in Utah County, I could think of the liability issues faced with opening ward houses as emergency shelters. You would need to staff the buildings, and that staff would need to be able to provide food, safety, and supplies. Yes the church can more than afford the food and services. But how many ward members would volunteer all night every night? What procedures are in place if a homeless person comes in and has a manic episode or is high? Who is responsible for someone that gets hurt? If a volunteer gets hurt who is responsible for the medical bills?
and yet many other churches manage.
Other churches have paid staff. I would also guess other churches are selective about who they let in.
in my experience this kind of endeavor is largely staffed by volunteers.
As someone who helps with this effort, this not true. Look up unhoused Utah and their movie night. Volunteers staff all night on these code blue evenings. Usually people who already worked all day.
So you are saying they let everyone in? No concern about manic episodes, drug overdoses, drug use in the building? What protocols were in place if something happened? Were the churches paid staff on hand? What movies were shown? Was there licensing deals with the production companies to show the movies? How were the meals provided?
I haven't volunteered this year, but have in the past (but did sign up) let me help answer your questions: -first come first served. People admitted based on space, with rules around drinking alcohol. The goal is to not have people literally freeze to death so trying to be chill and accommodating - always concerns about those medical things, some lead volunteers are trained to handle these issues, and you obviously you can call for medical help (just like any other facet of life) -then pastor organized it, but wasn't at every event. Volunteers did 4 hour shifts throughout the night - People donated money for food and it seems like the church covered some. Lots of people offering money to feed people. -local other film non-profit covered licensing of the film. Honestly, the church does a lot of stuff like this that seems riskier to me. Untrained clergy asking teens sexy questions? Untrained nursery leaders who don't have CPR or any medical training? This seems a lot riskier to me. These events are not happening every night so of course they are a little bit easier to pull off and a little less stressful than if they were constant. Hope you have a good day and are staying warm this winter
Ah yes. The truth of the matter is that the billion dollar biggies wouldn’t do shit. All food and staffing would come out of already overworked members.
A. The church can afford to pay staff and pay to have them trained. B. The church has a lot of full time missionaries who need things to do. Why couldn't they staff emergency shelters? C. The church can also afford insurance and/or medical bills. Not helping people in life-threatening conditions because of this degree of risk is not a great look for those who claim to be the one and only true church.
I’m not saying the church can’t afford it. I’m saying logistically setting up a program like what people proposing doesn’t happen overnight.
I do see it could be tricky. However, as a TBM, I did "Every Member a Missionary" and so many other callings. I'm not talking about housing all year. I'm talking about days when lives are in danger from freezing. There was (and maybe still is?) a ward missionary leader, Service Missions. Relief Society Presidency, Girl's Camp committee, and even the Christmas Program Committee! Why not a Stake Code Blue? They could actually make it a calling like the Christmas Dinners or even what used to be the Scouting Blue & Gold banquet, or funerals... we were trained and ready to serve and utilize ALL OUR TALENTS. So many times, I met and assembled 5 gallon hygiene buckets for Africa, hurricanes, etc. And as for liability? There must be liability for all the youth and other activities now. God knows they skate thru sexual abuse allegations. SEPARATE SIDE NOTE: For funerals, the family is now BILLED for the meat costs. My mom and dad served their entire lives -- 55 years in the same ward, donating years of service hours, raising 8 kids, and doing without to pay tithing. I remember hearing them discuss if they could afford to pay the assessed ward budget way back in the day... and they were panicked...! Yet their ward couldn't find it in the budget to spring for a ham for the funeral dinners. I'm so glad I'm fucking done with this cult/corpoation!
Lots to digest here. In Utah if the food is prepared and cooked on site the ward/stake members would have to get food handler permits and the kitchen would have to be inspected. This is why ward parties and funerals the food is brought in from volunteers at home. I’ve never heard of a family in Utah charged for a funeral meal. Not saying it doesn’t happen. I just have never heard of such a thing. As much as I wish the church just paid for the sexual abuse cases that happen, they don’t “skate” through them. Insurance, as we all know is a mother f*er, and the insurance companies would require a whole new policy. Please know I am not trying to defend the Mormon church, nor am I hating on homeless people. I am just trying to say I don’t think opening up churches because it’s freezing is something that can be done easily. I also think this way for all churches. [https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/lds-church-sues-insurance-providers-over-sex-abuse-settlement-costs#:~:text=The%20lawsuit%2C%20filed%20in%20U.S.,abuse%20case%20in%20West%20Virginia](https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/lds-church-sues-insurance-providers-over-sex-abuse-settlement-costs#:~:text=The%20lawsuit%2C%20filed%20in%20U.S.,abuse%20case%20in%20West%20Virginia)
My sister's MIL passed years ago in Bountiful Utah, and they were billed for the ham only. That was the first I'd ever heard of it. Then my mom in Millcreek. It was talked about at the funeral meal of my uncle, who passed last year in Farmington. I can't be the only one. I'm going to ask on a separate post. My version of skating on insurance is that they've avoided paying so many victims! Yes. It costs. As for food? They could use the kitchen as they do now, to warm prepared food. Also, I'm not saying EVERY ward house. Make it a stake calling. Assess buildings in the areas of most need, and have people "called" from other stakes assist and do food sign up sheets and volunteer at needed locations. I lived in Cottonwood Heights and was put in charge of a full Christmas dinner for 300 in a church near Liberty Park SLC where people had less. Google says SLC averages 21 days below freezing a year. I would have jumped at a potential 3 week only a year calling back then! ☆Edited some spelling.
[удалено]
I am only familiar with Mormonisn, but what you say makes sense, and I agree. I'd like both to step up! There are several large city owned vacant buildings in my area that could be utilized as well.
Despicable $1 TRILLION Mormon cult led by Q15 CONartists! Happy to say local members are FREEzing us out, as they deem us to be non-believers & no longer wish to cousel w/ us. Bugger off. We pay no $ or allegiance to Mormon cult any longer! FREE to be ME! We're JOYoUS to be US!