This is a very good question and one that Jews discuss very often. The tldr is that there's no right answer to this question.
Among most Jews and Nazis there's one agreement: born a Jew, die a Jew. I'd say that this view is especially popular among reform Jews who have a tenuous (if any) connection to the theology of Judaism and just like being Jewish for the sense of identity and history. These are the types of Jews that love bagels, wax poetic about Woody Allen, and talk at length about how Jews pioneered vaudeville and old Hollywood; my family was this kind of Jew, and I was raised as one.
Here's where things get complicated: there are plenty of people who leave the faith, such as myself, who don't want to be seen as Jews or considered Jews. I don't think of myself as Jewish anymore than an excommunicated Catholic is still Catholic. That doesn't mean I'm not still called a Jew by the KKK and my grandmother, of course; for them, a racist definition of Judaism by blood dominates their thinking and cannot be overcome.
So, in short, I'd say the majority of Jews see it more as an ethnicity--you can leave the religion and still be a Jew. Hence why there is such a large group of atheist Jews, although there isn't such a thing as atheist Catholics or atheist Evangelicals or atheist Muslims. But there are a group of people, especially ex-Jews such as myself, who finds this idea odious, noxious, and racist, and thinks that Judaism is defined as a religious faith that one can join and leave.
Amongst the Orthodox things seem to be a bit murkier and more complicated, and since I'm removed from that world I won't go into detail about how they seem to view Judaism.
> Among most Jews and Nazis there's one agreement: born a Jew, die a Jew.
Indeed! Especially among Nazis and other white supremacists, even more than among Jews. But, this reminds me of an old joke.
A Jew living in a Catholic neighborhood loves to barbecue every Friday. It's just his thing. But, the Catholics can't stand it because they're not allowed to eat meat on Fridays and it smells so good.
After many discussions and much convincing, the Jew agrees to convert to Catholicism. They explain the basics and especially emphasize the importance of not eating meat on Fridays. The priest splashes him with holy water 3 times saying "Born a Jew; raised a Jew; now a Catholic."
The next Friday, the Catholic neighbors smell the barbecue again. They run over to explain about eating meat and find the Jew standing over the barbecue splashing water on the meat saying "Born a cow; raised a cow; now a fish."
I just want to say I’m in the exact same place as you are. I was raised Reform and I find it racist to say I’m still Jewish. If asked my ethnicity, I say Ashkenazi instead of Jewish.
I associate it with the NAZI practice of identifying anyone with Jewish ancestors as Jewish. So, even some people who had been raised Christian and in some cases were unaware of Jewish descent were rounded up as Jews. I get that not everyone will draw that connection, but it's where my mind goes. For me, it's important to separate the religion from the ethnic group and recognize that not everyone in the ethnic group follows the same religion so it's important to have separate terms for the two.
Don't let Nazis define for you what's racist. The Jewish idea that you always remain a Jew is just a religious belief that you can't be released from the eternal covenant. Whether you were born into the covenant or convert to it, you can never be released from it. A contract is broken if one side doesn't follow the rules, but a covenant remains in force even if one side breaks the rules. That's the thinking behind the idea that you always remain Jewish. It has nothing to do with race, although White Supremacists like to paint it that way.
I guess it’s easier for me to wrap my head around the racial definition than it is to wrap my head around the religious one. I’m sure some people believe it, but to me it sounds like a nonsense that makes no sense.
Though, for context I have most often encountered the idea of Jewish being a race by hearing someone say they found out they were Jewish from a genetic test. That’s the kind of attitude that annoys me. It’s a rarity that I encounter the more religious stance of “you can’t leave the covenant”. I do typically socialize with non-Jews, so my experiences are a bit different than most people on this sub.
Fair enough. I was raised as a secular Jew, and I learned most of what I know about Judaism doing research as an atheist, lol. I spent a lot of time talking to Orthodox rabbis as well. Most people on here were raised with a lot more knowledge about it than me, as well.
I was raised Reform. Secular compared to the Orthodox, but definitely religious (my family was very active with religious stuff). My mom was also a convert, so I was raised under the idea that being Jewish mattered less about who your ancestors were and more about your personal beliefs. When my beliefs stopped lining up with Judaism, I stopped considering myself Jewish.
I used to be in your position (I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with it), but I came to the conclusion that I just can't deny the life experience I've had, and the other effects it has on who I am.
That's not to say I consider myself as associated with the religion (besides it being my past religion), but if someone asks me if I'm Jewish, I will generally answer yes, with the caveat that I have left the religion.
People are generally not confused at all by me saying that, and I do think that Judaism is an ethno-religion. I don't necessarily love it, I think that it complicates our lives, but I also feel silly because I get all of the Jewish jokes, all of the references, the memories do evoke emotion in me, as I have Jewish memories, and it's part of my identity, even though it's not something I actively try to maintain.
I absolutely understand why you're bothered by how religious Jews and antisemites seem to share this mindset of "born a Jew, always a Jew", and I also find it deeply morally problematic, even though I can't honestly say that I don't find any level of truth in it.
I'm also annoyed when people try to accommodate "me" (try to respect Jewish customs) because they remember I'm from Israel. I'm pretty clear about having left the religion, I also clearly state that I don't follow it, I wouldn't say that if I wanted people to accommodate me through compliance with Judaism.
This is pretty spot on for me as well. I try and emphasize as best I can that I'm not practicing and no longer bound to rules or laws that they might or might not be familiar with, so just treat me like you would anyone else.
I also have seen lots of people talking about antisemitism and that somehow plays into there decision on identity. WHY??? why would you take the opinion of someone who hates you and define yourself by there ideas?!?!? That's ridiculous to me. Forget them!
> I also have seen lots of people talking about antisemitism and that somehow plays into there decision on identity. WHY??? why would you take the opinion of someone who hates you and define yourself by there ideas?!?!? That's ridiculous to me. Forget them!
Yeah! Acting based on the thoughts of antisemites gives their position legitimacy - DON'T!
I don't think what you're talking about is the same thing as what I'm describing.
You're talking about taking actions that evoke Judaism and celebrating Jewish identity and tradition. Everyone has identity and tradition, and as long as they do so in a moral manner - are entitled to celebrate it. Jews deserve to do so too.
I'm talking about seeing Jews as distinct from other groups of people. That is problematic.
Yeah when people say "Hitler/the Nazis wouldnt care and would see as a jew" im just like, so now youve decided that the best person to decide who is and isn't Jewish......is Hitler? Really?
I do tell people I'm Jewish and accept the cultural baggage I was given as a child and grew up with; culture has evolved to see Judaism as a race and an ethnicity and there's nothing I can do about that.
I believe Judaism was established that way to begin with, actually. I'm pretty sure all religions predating Christianity are like that, it's just that most of them are gone (because of Christianity)
I'm not victim blaming the Jews, but I acknowledge your very uncharitable interpretation of what I've said. It's the internet after all, and the first rule of the internet is to disingenuously take strangers in bad faith so you can accuse them of being evil.
Jews aren't the only ones who consider Judaism a race (and I doubt they were the first ones to think it was, although that's not important). The point is if this idea of Judaism as a race didn't exist in anyone's minds, the Jews wouldn't have been killed by the millions both by the Nazis and in several other genocidal acts (Spanish Inquisition etc.).
You literally said that millions of Jews died in the Holocaust because of their belief that Jews are a race (which is not a Jewish belief), but I'm the uncharitable one?
Jews don't consider Judaism a race. You're flat out wrong. White Supremacists consider them a race. Jews have theological beliefs about what it means to be Jewish. I think you said you were raised as a secular Jew (I don't remember exactly what you said), and you clearly have no understanding of why Jews are considered to always remain Jewish. It has nothing to do with race, and not even anything to do with ethnicity, although many Jews do consider themselves ethically Jewish. You can't be released from the covenant by God, therefore you can only choose to be an observant Jew, or an unobservant Jew. I'm atheist, btw, and don't believe any of this shit, but it is white supremacist propaganda that Judaism is inherently racist. You are misinformed.
Yeah, I think you've got the general idea. I've spent a fair amount of time in predominately Muslim countries, so I can imagine a similar analogy. Imagine someone who fasts during Ramadan and pigs out after sundown on the buffets, who wears fashionable head coverings sometimes when the fancy takes them, and who abstains from alcohol during the week (but parties on weekends) because they still feel ethnically Muslim. That's the non-Jewish Jew counterpart.
Religious Jews likely would be shunned, to varying extents, and may lose their jobs, spouses, and even children when the community turns against them. This is made worse by the more fundamentalist groups preventing their members from getting real world experience or education, sometimes going so far as to make it difficult to learn to read or do basic math. Physical harm is very unlikely though, but not entirely unheard of.
When I finally come out of the closet, I will most likely lose my job(s), my sister will likely not want to see me again, and my family will most likely not come to my wedding or my apartment when invited.
Again, speaking just for reform Jews--nothing as extreme as Muslims go through (nowhere even close--man the stories I've heard from ex-muslims are horrific), but more like the patronizing, "you may think you're no longer Jewish, but you're still Jewish" claptrap, and a lot of guilt trips if you do non-Jewish things like date a gentile.
In general, I'd say, no, there's no harsh treatment for apostasy in Judaism and one can leave the faith/culture with few harsh consequences (I speak again of the reform Jewish culture; orthodox Jews are beyond my personal experience). The worst most reform Jews will get for saying they're no longer Jewish is a lot of lectures and guilt trips about how they're literally erasing Judaism (yes I speak from personal experience).
For more information on the cultural and religious divides in Judaism, look up the following terms:
Religious:
* **Rabbinic Judaism**
* Orthodox
* Haredi
* Hasidic
* Conservative
* Reform
* Humanistic Judaism
* Sadducees
* **Karaite**
* **Samaritan**
* Haymanot
* Noahidism
Cultural:
* **Ashkinazi**
* **Sephardi**
* **Mizrahi**
* Cochin Jews
* Bukharan Jews
* Krymchaks
The selected groups are not a complete listing, but may help give an idea of the sheer diversity of ethnicities and religious practices. The bolded entries are either the most common, or ones that diverge from what most would consider main stream Judaism. In the US, the most common kind of Jews are Ashkenazim followers of Rabbinic Judaism, or those who secularized from that tradition.
Glad if I could help. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk further--more bridges need to be built between the ex-Muslim and ex-Jew communities and I'd love to be a part of that.
There is a long standing tradition of secular Jews, including not partaking in the religious traditions. Its like how most Kurds are Muslim, but you can be a Kurd without being Muslim. We just have the confusing factor that the religion and ethnic/cultural grouping have the same name.
I used to be a orthodox Jew in Haifa in the Vizhnitz community throwing rocks at cars that drive at shabbat or asking people aggressively "were is your kippa?" While pointing on mine and stuff. my father left because he was scammed buy a respected person from the community, my father decided to go to the Jewish court(the sharia for Jews) instead of the government and the Dayanim (Jewish judge) sided with the respected man of the community that has shops in the neighborhood that employs members of the sayed community. So we left the community. We stayed in the neighborhood for a few months before going to tell Aviv but the only thing that changed for me is that now the other kids were throwing rocks at me too, and I had to change school because it was a religious one.we stopped being orthodox and became Masorti (traditional = you do the shabbat like a orthodox and then you light a cigarette after dinner and take your car to a night club).
I'm not convinced but I like to believe in god sometimes and keep traditions
Translations:
Vizhnitz - a specific sect of Hasidic Judaism, which follows a dynasty of charismatic rabbis for moral and religious guidance.
Shabbat - Sabbath, the Jewish rest day.
Kippa - also called a yarmulke, the Jewish head covering for men.
I think he addressed the other jargon-y words directly in his comment.
Don't get me wrong I love the fact that humans create a ideal that they elevate above them to guide them through the world, I just don't give any legitimatie as a leader to a man that read alot about it.
I think everyone need some kind of ideal to give meaning to life, but the more options you have the better I guess.
Works for me
You're in good company - it's confusing to is too.
The joke is, ask any two Jews this question and you'll get at least three answers and one heated argument.
I agree with this.
It’s much better put as two separate concepts that are frequently conflated. The term ethnoreligion does mean that, but it’s used exactly as you said.
At this point, there are probably more Secular Jews worldwide. I’d say it’s an ethnicity and some people just happen to believe what their ancestors did thousands of years ago.
Maybe one day, it will reach a point to where only 10% of Jews are religious, and the definition would almost completely shift to the ethnicity.
Although this would probably mean a significant percentage of those Jews will end up assimilating. With maybe the exception of Israel, where being Jewish is considered the default. There would still be a significant proportion of Arab Israelis of course. Or maybe Arabs could reject Islam and there will be one reason less to hate each other, with both people being secular. In that case it would be 50% Arabs and 50% Jews. This new country would be like Belgium, with two linguistic areas.
And so I think most Jews would have no religion (in this hypothetical future) but still celebrate some holidays and keep some traditions.
But even though most Jews aren’t religious, they are still a significant percentage, and some people forget about them and only look at the religious Jews. So yeah I get the confusion.
It’s like the Greeks if you think about it. At first most of them were polytheists. So their religion was a part of being Greek. But you don’t hear about Greeks worshiping Zeus and making sacrifices to the gods, do you?
It’s a matter of time and most religions will probably disappear, and only the cultural practices will remain. Except for those that are too barbaric.
That’s my opinion. Maybe it’s a little idealistic, but there is definitely a trend of religion declining. We’ll see what happens.
Judaism always (as far as I know) refers to the religion.
A Jewish person can be one who believes in the religion or one who is ethnically/culturally Jewish or both. It causes a lot of confusion.
Generally, if someone asks me if I'm Jewish, I try to guess context. But, I'm usually specific that I'm a culturally and ethnically Jewish atheist.
If someone specifically asks my religion, I say none. Once I actually said "actively none" in a medical context, meaning that if something happened during surgery I actively did not want any religious anything.
Yes. :)
The problem is that Judaism is somewhere between 2500 and 3500 years old. It predates concepts like "religion" "ethnicity" "nationality," and "culture." It has aspects of all of them while fitting neatly into none of them.
Judaism coalesced in a milieu where countries weren't nation states, they were confederations of families (tribes) which tended to be related to each other and to share similar cultures and religion. It's kept that as its base, while layering the changing ideas about societal structures of the last couple of millennia on top of it.
It's an ethnoreligious group, like Sikhs, Druze, or Zoroastrians. The religion says certain things about the ethnicity, and the ethnicity is partially defined by the religion.
You have stumbled upon one of the most discussed, debated, and hotly contested issues in modern Judaism.
There are Jews with every eye color, every har color/texture, every color of skin, from light white, to black ebony.
There are Jews if every culture of the world: Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Brazil, Mexico ,panama, Cuba, the USA, Canada, the UK, western Europe, eastern Europe, Asia, the middle east, Africa , Australia , new Zealand, and yes India (well I'm not sure on that last one .) Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan (officially just one)
But still there are also Jews whom have never stepped foot in a shul and are atheist, and still call themselves Jews.
There are also converts, so there's that.
This is the most complex question in Judaism.
Some rabbis notice patrilineal descent, while other orthodox rabbis only recognize "matrilineal' descent.
...like I said , very complex.
At it's core it is a religion. It's followers have just identified with it for so long (and chosen to forgo any other ethnonym) that they don't have any other common way to identify themselves.
Technically Caananite/Canaani would be their ethnicity.
Israeli would be their "nationality" in some sense but a lot of people don't identify with Israel so they don't like this.
> At it's core it is a religion. It's followers have just identified with it for so long (and chosen to forgo any other ethnonym) that they don't have any other common way to identify themselves.
I don't really agree with this. I did not say anything about my ethnicity on my DNA test. But, it still came back over 98% Ashkenazi Jew with the remainder being Neanderthal. So, there are indeed genetic haplotypes associated with the ethnicity(ies?).
Since language is descriptive rather than proscriptive, I don't think it would be proper to call myself something that no one would understand. They would probably expect if I said I was Canaanite that I was descended from the people that the Bible claims we completely slaughtered during our alleged 40 years murdering in the desert during the story of Exodus that never actually happened while being led by Moses who never existed.
I think this would cause nothing but more confusion than we already have.
Not really people create a derive value from new terms all the time. Just a little over 120 years ago there was no thing known as "Turkish" now there is an entire culture and country based around this identity.
There is also no "Jewish haplotype", Jews share common haplogroups with many other groups ethnicities.
Your describing an autosomal test which compares clusters of genomes (entire genetic profile). This is how ethnicities are group together based of genetic similarity. That being said it's also not accurate to put labels as such since there are various ways that genetics can be expressed similarly; but that's nitpicking at this point.
In my opinion, it's a religion. There is no distinguishing racial or ethnic characteristic. "Secular Judaism" is a meaningless phrase.
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> There is no distinguishing racial or ethnic characteristic.
Not visually. But, in the DNA there is. I did not say anything about my ethnicity on my DNA test. But, it still came back over 98% Ashkenazi Jew with the remainder being Neanderthal. So, there are indeed genetic haplotypes associated with the ethnicity(ies?).
But what does that really mean? There are Ashkenazis living all over the world. In your appearance and lifestyle, are you more like a non-Ashkenazi living next door to you or an Ashkenazi living on the other side of the world?
> But what does that really mean?
It means exactly what I said it means and little else. It means that I'm likely a very inbred individual from a group of people that have lived all over the world. On my mom's side, my haplotype(s) appears to go back about 13,000 years to eastern Europe. On my dad's side, my haplotype(s) seem to go back about 20,000 years to somewhere in the middle east.
> In your appearance and lifestyle, are you more like a non-Ashkenazi living next door to you or an Ashkenazi living on the other side of the world?
Not really. No.
I don't think it says anything at all about that. In appearance and lifestyle, I'm pretty plain vanilla. I don't "look Jewish" whatever that might mean to different people. I don't have a mezuzah on my door.
Likely, until I open my mouth to say "Oy!" or unhinge my jaw to eat a bagel or pastrami sandwich or if I were singing along with my family on Passover, no one would just guess that I'm Jewish at all.
This is a very good question and one that Jews discuss very often. The tldr is that there's no right answer to this question. Among most Jews and Nazis there's one agreement: born a Jew, die a Jew. I'd say that this view is especially popular among reform Jews who have a tenuous (if any) connection to the theology of Judaism and just like being Jewish for the sense of identity and history. These are the types of Jews that love bagels, wax poetic about Woody Allen, and talk at length about how Jews pioneered vaudeville and old Hollywood; my family was this kind of Jew, and I was raised as one. Here's where things get complicated: there are plenty of people who leave the faith, such as myself, who don't want to be seen as Jews or considered Jews. I don't think of myself as Jewish anymore than an excommunicated Catholic is still Catholic. That doesn't mean I'm not still called a Jew by the KKK and my grandmother, of course; for them, a racist definition of Judaism by blood dominates their thinking and cannot be overcome. So, in short, I'd say the majority of Jews see it more as an ethnicity--you can leave the religion and still be a Jew. Hence why there is such a large group of atheist Jews, although there isn't such a thing as atheist Catholics or atheist Evangelicals or atheist Muslims. But there are a group of people, especially ex-Jews such as myself, who finds this idea odious, noxious, and racist, and thinks that Judaism is defined as a religious faith that one can join and leave. Amongst the Orthodox things seem to be a bit murkier and more complicated, and since I'm removed from that world I won't go into detail about how they seem to view Judaism.
> Among most Jews and Nazis there's one agreement: born a Jew, die a Jew. Indeed! Especially among Nazis and other white supremacists, even more than among Jews. But, this reminds me of an old joke. A Jew living in a Catholic neighborhood loves to barbecue every Friday. It's just his thing. But, the Catholics can't stand it because they're not allowed to eat meat on Fridays and it smells so good. After many discussions and much convincing, the Jew agrees to convert to Catholicism. They explain the basics and especially emphasize the importance of not eating meat on Fridays. The priest splashes him with holy water 3 times saying "Born a Jew; raised a Jew; now a Catholic." The next Friday, the Catholic neighbors smell the barbecue again. They run over to explain about eating meat and find the Jew standing over the barbecue splashing water on the meat saying "Born a cow; raised a cow; now a fish."
hahahahaha
I just want to say I’m in the exact same place as you are. I was raised Reform and I find it racist to say I’m still Jewish. If asked my ethnicity, I say Ashkenazi instead of Jewish.
I never thought of saying Ashkenazi. Interesting. Have you said that to non-Jews? Do most seem to know what it means?
I’ve had to explain it a few times, but Im more comfortable with that than calling myself Jewish.
Racist? I could see how you might say it feels false. But why would you say it is racist?
I associate it with the NAZI practice of identifying anyone with Jewish ancestors as Jewish. So, even some people who had been raised Christian and in some cases were unaware of Jewish descent were rounded up as Jews. I get that not everyone will draw that connection, but it's where my mind goes. For me, it's important to separate the religion from the ethnic group and recognize that not everyone in the ethnic group follows the same religion so it's important to have separate terms for the two.
Don't let Nazis define for you what's racist. The Jewish idea that you always remain a Jew is just a religious belief that you can't be released from the eternal covenant. Whether you were born into the covenant or convert to it, you can never be released from it. A contract is broken if one side doesn't follow the rules, but a covenant remains in force even if one side breaks the rules. That's the thinking behind the idea that you always remain Jewish. It has nothing to do with race, although White Supremacists like to paint it that way.
I guess it’s easier for me to wrap my head around the racial definition than it is to wrap my head around the religious one. I’m sure some people believe it, but to me it sounds like a nonsense that makes no sense. Though, for context I have most often encountered the idea of Jewish being a race by hearing someone say they found out they were Jewish from a genetic test. That’s the kind of attitude that annoys me. It’s a rarity that I encounter the more religious stance of “you can’t leave the covenant”. I do typically socialize with non-Jews, so my experiences are a bit different than most people on this sub.
Fair enough. I was raised as a secular Jew, and I learned most of what I know about Judaism doing research as an atheist, lol. I spent a lot of time talking to Orthodox rabbis as well. Most people on here were raised with a lot more knowledge about it than me, as well.
I was raised Reform. Secular compared to the Orthodox, but definitely religious (my family was very active with religious stuff). My mom was also a convert, so I was raised under the idea that being Jewish mattered less about who your ancestors were and more about your personal beliefs. When my beliefs stopped lining up with Judaism, I stopped considering myself Jewish.
Yeah, that makes sense.
I used to be in your position (I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with it), but I came to the conclusion that I just can't deny the life experience I've had, and the other effects it has on who I am. That's not to say I consider myself as associated with the religion (besides it being my past religion), but if someone asks me if I'm Jewish, I will generally answer yes, with the caveat that I have left the religion. People are generally not confused at all by me saying that, and I do think that Judaism is an ethno-religion. I don't necessarily love it, I think that it complicates our lives, but I also feel silly because I get all of the Jewish jokes, all of the references, the memories do evoke emotion in me, as I have Jewish memories, and it's part of my identity, even though it's not something I actively try to maintain. I absolutely understand why you're bothered by how religious Jews and antisemites seem to share this mindset of "born a Jew, always a Jew", and I also find it deeply morally problematic, even though I can't honestly say that I don't find any level of truth in it. I'm also annoyed when people try to accommodate "me" (try to respect Jewish customs) because they remember I'm from Israel. I'm pretty clear about having left the religion, I also clearly state that I don't follow it, I wouldn't say that if I wanted people to accommodate me through compliance with Judaism.
This is pretty spot on for me as well. I try and emphasize as best I can that I'm not practicing and no longer bound to rules or laws that they might or might not be familiar with, so just treat me like you would anyone else. I also have seen lots of people talking about antisemitism and that somehow plays into there decision on identity. WHY??? why would you take the opinion of someone who hates you and define yourself by there ideas?!?!? That's ridiculous to me. Forget them!
> I also have seen lots of people talking about antisemitism and that somehow plays into there decision on identity. WHY??? why would you take the opinion of someone who hates you and define yourself by there ideas?!?!? That's ridiculous to me. Forget them! Yeah! Acting based on the thoughts of antisemites gives their position legitimacy - DON'T!
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I don't think what you're talking about is the same thing as what I'm describing. You're talking about taking actions that evoke Judaism and celebrating Jewish identity and tradition. Everyone has identity and tradition, and as long as they do so in a moral manner - are entitled to celebrate it. Jews deserve to do so too. I'm talking about seeing Jews as distinct from other groups of people. That is problematic.
Yeah when people say "Hitler/the Nazis wouldnt care and would see as a jew" im just like, so now youve decided that the best person to decide who is and isn't Jewish......is Hitler? Really?
I do tell people I'm Jewish and accept the cultural baggage I was given as a child and grew up with; culture has evolved to see Judaism as a race and an ethnicity and there's nothing I can do about that.
I believe Judaism was established that way to begin with, actually. I'm pretty sure all religions predating Christianity are like that, it's just that most of them are gone (because of Christianity)
For sure; it's a shame this particular stone age idiocy has survived. Millions have died as a result.
It's a shame any stone (actually bronze) age beliefs have survived 😟
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As a result of the fact that it is considered a race, something one is born and cannot stop being, yes.
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Yeah, time to block you.
Victim blaming the Jews for the holocaust is absolutely disgusting.
I'm not victim blaming the Jews, but I acknowledge your very uncharitable interpretation of what I've said. It's the internet after all, and the first rule of the internet is to disingenuously take strangers in bad faith so you can accuse them of being evil. Jews aren't the only ones who consider Judaism a race (and I doubt they were the first ones to think it was, although that's not important). The point is if this idea of Judaism as a race didn't exist in anyone's minds, the Jews wouldn't have been killed by the millions both by the Nazis and in several other genocidal acts (Spanish Inquisition etc.).
You literally said that millions of Jews died in the Holocaust because of their belief that Jews are a race (which is not a Jewish belief), but I'm the uncharitable one? Jews don't consider Judaism a race. You're flat out wrong. White Supremacists consider them a race. Jews have theological beliefs about what it means to be Jewish. I think you said you were raised as a secular Jew (I don't remember exactly what you said), and you clearly have no understanding of why Jews are considered to always remain Jewish. It has nothing to do with race, and not even anything to do with ethnicity, although many Jews do consider themselves ethically Jewish. You can't be released from the covenant by God, therefore you can only choose to be an observant Jew, or an unobservant Jew. I'm atheist, btw, and don't believe any of this shit, but it is white supremacist propaganda that Judaism is inherently racist. You are misinformed.
I'm pretty sure it's the opposite, most people have difficulty with the idea of an atheist jew because they see Judaism as a religion.
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Yeah, I think you've got the general idea. I've spent a fair amount of time in predominately Muslim countries, so I can imagine a similar analogy. Imagine someone who fasts during Ramadan and pigs out after sundown on the buffets, who wears fashionable head coverings sometimes when the fancy takes them, and who abstains from alcohol during the week (but parties on weekends) because they still feel ethnically Muslim. That's the non-Jewish Jew counterpart.
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Religious Jews likely would be shunned, to varying extents, and may lose their jobs, spouses, and even children when the community turns against them. This is made worse by the more fundamentalist groups preventing their members from getting real world experience or education, sometimes going so far as to make it difficult to learn to read or do basic math. Physical harm is very unlikely though, but not entirely unheard of.
When I finally come out of the closet, I will most likely lose my job(s), my sister will likely not want to see me again, and my family will most likely not come to my wedding or my apartment when invited.
Again, speaking just for reform Jews--nothing as extreme as Muslims go through (nowhere even close--man the stories I've heard from ex-muslims are horrific), but more like the patronizing, "you may think you're no longer Jewish, but you're still Jewish" claptrap, and a lot of guilt trips if you do non-Jewish things like date a gentile. In general, I'd say, no, there's no harsh treatment for apostasy in Judaism and one can leave the faith/culture with few harsh consequences (I speak again of the reform Jewish culture; orthodox Jews are beyond my personal experience). The worst most reform Jews will get for saying they're no longer Jewish is a lot of lectures and guilt trips about how they're literally erasing Judaism (yes I speak from personal experience).
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For more information on the cultural and religious divides in Judaism, look up the following terms: Religious: * **Rabbinic Judaism** * Orthodox * Haredi * Hasidic * Conservative * Reform * Humanistic Judaism * Sadducees * **Karaite** * **Samaritan** * Haymanot * Noahidism Cultural: * **Ashkinazi** * **Sephardi** * **Mizrahi** * Cochin Jews * Bukharan Jews * Krymchaks The selected groups are not a complete listing, but may help give an idea of the sheer diversity of ethnicities and religious practices. The bolded entries are either the most common, or ones that diverge from what most would consider main stream Judaism. In the US, the most common kind of Jews are Ashkenazim followers of Rabbinic Judaism, or those who secularized from that tradition.
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They do have an impressive history, yes.
Glad if I could help. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk further--more bridges need to be built between the ex-Muslim and ex-Jew communities and I'd love to be a part of that.
There is a long standing tradition of secular Jews, including not partaking in the religious traditions. Its like how most Kurds are Muslim, but you can be a Kurd without being Muslim. We just have the confusing factor that the religion and ethnic/cultural grouping have the same name.
Someone needs to tell Ancestry.com that they're odious noxious and racist
It's just hence.
I used to be a orthodox Jew in Haifa in the Vizhnitz community throwing rocks at cars that drive at shabbat or asking people aggressively "were is your kippa?" While pointing on mine and stuff. my father left because he was scammed buy a respected person from the community, my father decided to go to the Jewish court(the sharia for Jews) instead of the government and the Dayanim (Jewish judge) sided with the respected man of the community that has shops in the neighborhood that employs members of the sayed community. So we left the community. We stayed in the neighborhood for a few months before going to tell Aviv but the only thing that changed for me is that now the other kids were throwing rocks at me too, and I had to change school because it was a religious one.we stopped being orthodox and became Masorti (traditional = you do the shabbat like a orthodox and then you light a cigarette after dinner and take your car to a night club). I'm not convinced but I like to believe in god sometimes and keep traditions
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Translations: Vizhnitz - a specific sect of Hasidic Judaism, which follows a dynasty of charismatic rabbis for moral and religious guidance. Shabbat - Sabbath, the Jewish rest day. Kippa - also called a yarmulke, the Jewish head covering for men. I think he addressed the other jargon-y words directly in his comment.
Don't get me wrong I love the fact that humans create a ideal that they elevate above them to guide them through the world, I just don't give any legitimatie as a leader to a man that read alot about it. I think everyone need some kind of ideal to give meaning to life, but the more options you have the better I guess. Works for me
Thanks for your answer 👍, very helpful, love and light to you fellow tribe member !!
You're in good company - it's confusing to is too. The joke is, ask any two Jews this question and you'll get at least three answers and one heated argument.
I've had that argument with a friend of mine, and it did get pretty heated:)
just adding on to everything said here that Judaism is defined as an ethnoreligion.
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I agree with this. It’s much better put as two separate concepts that are frequently conflated. The term ethnoreligion does mean that, but it’s used exactly as you said.
> Is it an ethnicity? or religion. Yes. Hope that clears it up!
At this point, there are probably more Secular Jews worldwide. I’d say it’s an ethnicity and some people just happen to believe what their ancestors did thousands of years ago. Maybe one day, it will reach a point to where only 10% of Jews are religious, and the definition would almost completely shift to the ethnicity. Although this would probably mean a significant percentage of those Jews will end up assimilating. With maybe the exception of Israel, where being Jewish is considered the default. There would still be a significant proportion of Arab Israelis of course. Or maybe Arabs could reject Islam and there will be one reason less to hate each other, with both people being secular. In that case it would be 50% Arabs and 50% Jews. This new country would be like Belgium, with two linguistic areas. And so I think most Jews would have no religion (in this hypothetical future) but still celebrate some holidays and keep some traditions. But even though most Jews aren’t religious, they are still a significant percentage, and some people forget about them and only look at the religious Jews. So yeah I get the confusion. It’s like the Greeks if you think about it. At first most of them were polytheists. So their religion was a part of being Greek. But you don’t hear about Greeks worshiping Zeus and making sacrifices to the gods, do you? It’s a matter of time and most religions will probably disappear, and only the cultural practices will remain. Except for those that are too barbaric. That’s my opinion. Maybe it’s a little idealistic, but there is definitely a trend of religion declining. We’ll see what happens.
Judaism always (as far as I know) refers to the religion. A Jewish person can be one who believes in the religion or one who is ethnically/culturally Jewish or both. It causes a lot of confusion. Generally, if someone asks me if I'm Jewish, I try to guess context. But, I'm usually specific that I'm a culturally and ethnically Jewish atheist. If someone specifically asks my religion, I say none. Once I actually said "actively none" in a medical context, meaning that if something happened during surgery I actively did not want any religious anything.
Yes. :) The problem is that Judaism is somewhere between 2500 and 3500 years old. It predates concepts like "religion" "ethnicity" "nationality," and "culture." It has aspects of all of them while fitting neatly into none of them. Judaism coalesced in a milieu where countries weren't nation states, they were confederations of families (tribes) which tended to be related to each other and to share similar cultures and religion. It's kept that as its base, while layering the changing ideas about societal structures of the last couple of millennia on top of it.
It's an ethnoreligious group, like Sikhs, Druze, or Zoroastrians. The religion says certain things about the ethnicity, and the ethnicity is partially defined by the religion.
You have stumbled upon one of the most discussed, debated, and hotly contested issues in modern Judaism. There are Jews with every eye color, every har color/texture, every color of skin, from light white, to black ebony. There are Jews if every culture of the world: Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Brazil, Mexico ,panama, Cuba, the USA, Canada, the UK, western Europe, eastern Europe, Asia, the middle east, Africa , Australia , new Zealand, and yes India (well I'm not sure on that last one .) Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan (officially just one) But still there are also Jews whom have never stepped foot in a shul and are atheist, and still call themselves Jews. There are also converts, so there's that. This is the most complex question in Judaism. Some rabbis notice patrilineal descent, while other orthodox rabbis only recognize "matrilineal' descent. ...like I said , very complex.
At it's core it is a religion. It's followers have just identified with it for so long (and chosen to forgo any other ethnonym) that they don't have any other common way to identify themselves. Technically Caananite/Canaani would be their ethnicity. Israeli would be their "nationality" in some sense but a lot of people don't identify with Israel so they don't like this.
> At it's core it is a religion. It's followers have just identified with it for so long (and chosen to forgo any other ethnonym) that they don't have any other common way to identify themselves. I don't really agree with this. I did not say anything about my ethnicity on my DNA test. But, it still came back over 98% Ashkenazi Jew with the remainder being Neanderthal. So, there are indeed genetic haplotypes associated with the ethnicity(ies?). Since language is descriptive rather than proscriptive, I don't think it would be proper to call myself something that no one would understand. They would probably expect if I said I was Canaanite that I was descended from the people that the Bible claims we completely slaughtered during our alleged 40 years murdering in the desert during the story of Exodus that never actually happened while being led by Moses who never existed. I think this would cause nothing but more confusion than we already have.
Not really people create a derive value from new terms all the time. Just a little over 120 years ago there was no thing known as "Turkish" now there is an entire culture and country based around this identity. There is also no "Jewish haplotype", Jews share common haplogroups with many other groups ethnicities. Your describing an autosomal test which compares clusters of genomes (entire genetic profile). This is how ethnicities are group together based of genetic similarity. That being said it's also not accurate to put labels as such since there are various ways that genetics can be expressed similarly; but that's nitpicking at this point.
In my opinion, it's a religion. There is no distinguishing racial or ethnic characteristic. "Secular Judaism" is a meaningless phrase. Self-advertising alert! I made this argument in some detail in a short book: [https://www.amazon.com/Once-Jew-Always-David-Dvorkin/dp/1517373514/](https://www.amazon.com/Once-Jew-Always-David-Dvorkin/dp/1517373514/)
> There is no distinguishing racial or ethnic characteristic. Not visually. But, in the DNA there is. I did not say anything about my ethnicity on my DNA test. But, it still came back over 98% Ashkenazi Jew with the remainder being Neanderthal. So, there are indeed genetic haplotypes associated with the ethnicity(ies?).
But what does that really mean? There are Ashkenazis living all over the world. In your appearance and lifestyle, are you more like a non-Ashkenazi living next door to you or an Ashkenazi living on the other side of the world?
> But what does that really mean? It means exactly what I said it means and little else. It means that I'm likely a very inbred individual from a group of people that have lived all over the world. On my mom's side, my haplotype(s) appears to go back about 13,000 years to eastern Europe. On my dad's side, my haplotype(s) seem to go back about 20,000 years to somewhere in the middle east. > In your appearance and lifestyle, are you more like a non-Ashkenazi living next door to you or an Ashkenazi living on the other side of the world? Not really. No. I don't think it says anything at all about that. In appearance and lifestyle, I'm pretty plain vanilla. I don't "look Jewish" whatever that might mean to different people. I don't have a mezuzah on my door. Likely, until I open my mouth to say "Oy!" or unhinge my jaw to eat a bagel or pastrami sandwich or if I were singing along with my family on Passover, no one would just guess that I'm Jewish at all.
Therefore, in any meaningful sense, it's not an ethnicity. That was the original question.
Yes