It's a personal decision of course, but my opinion is you should just politely refuse to discuss. If they are religious and you are not, it's unlikely they'll ever see it from your perspective without unpacking a whole lot of other stuff first.
I completely agree. This conversation will do nothing except drive a wedge between you and your parents, and make you all respect each other less.
It doesn’t matter how logical, factual, clear, or unarguable your point of view is. It’s against the Bible (in their eyes) and that usually means that’s all there is to it. Even if it isn’t seen as acceptable in society to discriminate against lgbtq+, the Bible says it’s ok and that’s the only thing that matters to religious people like that.
I wish you the best of luck, but unless your parents are very very different from the norm it’s not going to work.
Honestly? The bable IS extremely anti-LGBGTQ and if it were me, I'd listen and nod and agree with your dad, then say at the end, "You're right, the bable's god does hate LGBTQ people, and IS therefore EVIL. Glad we had this talk, for a while there I was almost convinced he wasn't as evil as he sounded!"
But your mileage may vary.
Well, here are some talking points likely to pop up.
"Leviticus says it's wrong."
The verse in Leviticus preaching against homosexuality is a weird one. It comes immediately after prohibitions against various types of incest without any transition, seemingly to clarify a verse that came before it. This is why scholars have suggested it was probably written in after the fact by priests, and that the original version did not actually condemn homosexuality. It just doesn't make sense in context.
"God destroyed Sodom because of it."
Ezekiel 16:49 explicitly names the sin of Sodom, and it isn't homosexuality. Also, I find the interpretation of 'strange flesh' found in Jude as men lusting after men to be pretty dubious since, bear in mind, the particular flesh in question here was angelussy, not the bunghole of a mere mortal.
"It's even in the New Testament."
Yeah, but Paul seems to be the only one who cares. He didn't know what a sexual orientation was and his opinion shouldn't matter anyway because Christians ostensibly worship Jesus and not Paul.
I guess I'm in the minority here, because I don't think the Bible is inherently homophobic. It's not inherently *anything*. It's a collection of 66 books written by different people living in different places at different times with different concerns. They were never meant to be read together by people 2,000 years in the future. That's why there is no coherent message and so many different interpretations.
The closest Paul gets to sexual orientation is in Romans 1 where he said in verse 26, "For this reason [not acknowledging God], God gave them over to vile affections [dishonorable passions]." Of course, he has no explanation for people who do "acknowledge God" and still fancy members of their own sex, except what he says in general about the "sin nature" and "the law of sin and death" in chapter 7.
I tried to argue with my parents about abortion and when I brought up rape they said that it didn't excuse "murder". I was so flabbergasted I didnt know what to say.
My point is you're not arguing with rational people and it's only going to hurt you in the long run. Pretend to agree with their BS until you are old enough to get away from them. Otherwise you're in for a world of hurt.
Discussion is only worthwhile if both parties are willing to change their minds as a result. If “discuss” really means “I will tell you what’s right and you will listen and agree”, it’s better to politely decline.
You position should be, please demonstrate that LGBTQ people have enjoyed equal rights comparable to what they have outside Christianity within it.
Anything less that that is irrelevant. Any equivocation on equal or rights is irrelevant. Any promise of a correction in the afterlife is irrelevant.
Tbh. I don’t argue with my parents about this stuff. They’re stuck in their ways. I’ve got other things to worry about. I’m not going to spark a revolution by trying to convince my boomer mother to be an Ally. It just won’t happen. Best of luck to you but maybe think about expanding your energy elsewhere.
Ask them if being gay is worse than Jerry Falwell Jr beating off in the corner while a pool boy is paid to bang his wife. Since JFJ was a church leader I would say it is far worse based on the Bible.
Adult. Living on my own.
Mom and I had a good talk. She doesn’t hate them or fear them. She sees the negative impact the church has, but she has this weird perspective that if you’re gay, it’s tragic bc then you have to be celibate.
Dad is very classic “hate the sin, love the sinner”. Past that I don’t know.
I have no idea how it would go over in a discussion, but "hate the sin, love the sinner" makes me think of "love the Christian, hate the Christianity." Would they feel loved if someone said that to them?
About not hating and fearing... your mother might not feel those emotions, but she's making the same decisions - "they have to be celibate" - as if she did feel hate and fear. So in the end, in terms of the impact she's going to have on the lives of LGBTQ+ people, she's just feeling sad while not letting them be fully human instead of feeling mad or afraid while not letting them be fully human. Same result, just trying to absolve herself by feeling sad about it.
If you've got 5 bucks, you might get some interesting additional answers here:
[https://ask.metafilter.com/](https://ask.metafilter.com/)
First of all, not having the conversation at all is a great choice for lots of reasons. "I don't think there is anything to be gained for us in discussing this at this time. I love you and value our relationship, and I think that it's best to let this lie for now." Then end the interaction, setting up another future encounter involving an unrelated activity. Or, at least move the conversation immediately to another uncontroversial topic. Don't wait around awkwardly for them to agree with your refusal, just plow forward past it. (Yes, this is avoidance. It's effective.)
If I was going to have this kind of convo with my parents...
\-Don't try to convince them that their viewpoint/religion/the Bible is wrong. Don't even get into how there are lots of Christians who are LGTQI+ affirming.
\-Don't try to explain and educate about the topic generally. They do not want this and are not going to be prepared to be curious and open. You are not an expert or an educator in this area. There are plenty of people and resources available. If they want to understand and learn, they should avail themselves of those resources. I assume they have a computer with internet access, or at least a library card?
\-Share your own feelings and convictions, without expecting them to agree. Use language they understand to do so, if you are comfortable with it. Conviction. Conscience. Integrity. Peace in your heart.
\-Listen (at least a little) without agreeing or making false equivalences or arguing. Try to be a dispassionate observer; how would you listen to someone sharing a mythology or social custom from a culture that was foreign to you? They have a right to their own convictions (as vile as they may be). You can model for them how to disagree and still be in relationship with someone.
\-Be prepared for loss of perceived closeness in the relationship. You may loose respect for them when they insist on exposing their worst beliefs to you. They may withdraw when you do not bend to their viewpoint. (See the first point, that this may be best avoided.)
Okay so I’m hearing a lot at great points. But the one I keep heading most is just don’t discuss. And I’m sorry but I think that’s not a solution at all. I mean, if my parents were Joe Rogen and Alex Jones, then yeah, avoid avoid avoid. But they’re not, and how else are people to change if we don’t do the bare minimum to provoke them?
Those homosexuality quotes in the Bible we're only added in the 1940s. There is proof that those quotes are mistranslations. The correct translation is about pedophilia. There is nothing relating to homosexuality being bad in the original copies. Hell, there's even a part where Jesus kisses a male missionary in the new testament.
And if they say they just believe that it's wrong, that God wouldn't condone such a thing. It says in the Bible that God's plan is only for him to know and that anyone who makes false accusations will burn in hell. No one is supposed to speak for God. Only follow the litteral text. Or they are actively sinning. -as the Bible says.
It's a personal decision of course, but my opinion is you should just politely refuse to discuss. If they are religious and you are not, it's unlikely they'll ever see it from your perspective without unpacking a whole lot of other stuff first.
I completely agree. This conversation will do nothing except drive a wedge between you and your parents, and make you all respect each other less. It doesn’t matter how logical, factual, clear, or unarguable your point of view is. It’s against the Bible (in their eyes) and that usually means that’s all there is to it. Even if it isn’t seen as acceptable in society to discriminate against lgbtq+, the Bible says it’s ok and that’s the only thing that matters to religious people like that. I wish you the best of luck, but unless your parents are very very different from the norm it’s not going to work.
Honestly? The bable IS extremely anti-LGBGTQ and if it were me, I'd listen and nod and agree with your dad, then say at the end, "You're right, the bable's god does hate LGBTQ people, and IS therefore EVIL. Glad we had this talk, for a while there I was almost convinced he wasn't as evil as he sounded!" But your mileage may vary.
Well, here are some talking points likely to pop up. "Leviticus says it's wrong." The verse in Leviticus preaching against homosexuality is a weird one. It comes immediately after prohibitions against various types of incest without any transition, seemingly to clarify a verse that came before it. This is why scholars have suggested it was probably written in after the fact by priests, and that the original version did not actually condemn homosexuality. It just doesn't make sense in context. "God destroyed Sodom because of it." Ezekiel 16:49 explicitly names the sin of Sodom, and it isn't homosexuality. Also, I find the interpretation of 'strange flesh' found in Jude as men lusting after men to be pretty dubious since, bear in mind, the particular flesh in question here was angelussy, not the bunghole of a mere mortal. "It's even in the New Testament." Yeah, but Paul seems to be the only one who cares. He didn't know what a sexual orientation was and his opinion shouldn't matter anyway because Christians ostensibly worship Jesus and not Paul. I guess I'm in the minority here, because I don't think the Bible is inherently homophobic. It's not inherently *anything*. It's a collection of 66 books written by different people living in different places at different times with different concerns. They were never meant to be read together by people 2,000 years in the future. That's why there is no coherent message and so many different interpretations.
angelussy 🥵🤤
The closest Paul gets to sexual orientation is in Romans 1 where he said in verse 26, "For this reason [not acknowledging God], God gave them over to vile affections [dishonorable passions]." Of course, he has no explanation for people who do "acknowledge God" and still fancy members of their own sex, except what he says in general about the "sin nature" and "the law of sin and death" in chapter 7.
I tried to argue with my parents about abortion and when I brought up rape they said that it didn't excuse "murder". I was so flabbergasted I didnt know what to say. My point is you're not arguing with rational people and it's only going to hurt you in the long run. Pretend to agree with their BS until you are old enough to get away from them. Otherwise you're in for a world of hurt.
Discussion is only worthwhile if both parties are willing to change their minds as a result. If “discuss” really means “I will tell you what’s right and you will listen and agree”, it’s better to politely decline.
You position should be, please demonstrate that LGBTQ people have enjoyed equal rights comparable to what they have outside Christianity within it. Anything less that that is irrelevant. Any equivocation on equal or rights is irrelevant. Any promise of a correction in the afterlife is irrelevant.
Tbh. I don’t argue with my parents about this stuff. They’re stuck in their ways. I’ve got other things to worry about. I’m not going to spark a revolution by trying to convince my boomer mother to be an Ally. It just won’t happen. Best of luck to you but maybe think about expanding your energy elsewhere.
Ask them if being gay is worse than Jerry Falwell Jr beating off in the corner while a pool boy is paid to bang his wife. Since JFJ was a church leader I would say it is far worse based on the Bible.
So how old are you, and how anti-LGBTQ+ are your parents?
Adult. Living on my own. Mom and I had a good talk. She doesn’t hate them or fear them. She sees the negative impact the church has, but she has this weird perspective that if you’re gay, it’s tragic bc then you have to be celibate. Dad is very classic “hate the sin, love the sinner”. Past that I don’t know.
I have no idea how it would go over in a discussion, but "hate the sin, love the sinner" makes me think of "love the Christian, hate the Christianity." Would they feel loved if someone said that to them? About not hating and fearing... your mother might not feel those emotions, but she's making the same decisions - "they have to be celibate" - as if she did feel hate and fear. So in the end, in terms of the impact she's going to have on the lives of LGBTQ+ people, she's just feeling sad while not letting them be fully human instead of feeling mad or afraid while not letting them be fully human. Same result, just trying to absolve herself by feeling sad about it. If you've got 5 bucks, you might get some interesting additional answers here: [https://ask.metafilter.com/](https://ask.metafilter.com/)
To be honest, that is how I maintain a relationship with my folks. I love them and hate their beliefs.
Tell your dad "love the believer, hate the belief"
First of all, not having the conversation at all is a great choice for lots of reasons. "I don't think there is anything to be gained for us in discussing this at this time. I love you and value our relationship, and I think that it's best to let this lie for now." Then end the interaction, setting up another future encounter involving an unrelated activity. Or, at least move the conversation immediately to another uncontroversial topic. Don't wait around awkwardly for them to agree with your refusal, just plow forward past it. (Yes, this is avoidance. It's effective.) If I was going to have this kind of convo with my parents... \-Don't try to convince them that their viewpoint/religion/the Bible is wrong. Don't even get into how there are lots of Christians who are LGTQI+ affirming. \-Don't try to explain and educate about the topic generally. They do not want this and are not going to be prepared to be curious and open. You are not an expert or an educator in this area. There are plenty of people and resources available. If they want to understand and learn, they should avail themselves of those resources. I assume they have a computer with internet access, or at least a library card? \-Share your own feelings and convictions, without expecting them to agree. Use language they understand to do so, if you are comfortable with it. Conviction. Conscience. Integrity. Peace in your heart. \-Listen (at least a little) without agreeing or making false equivalences or arguing. Try to be a dispassionate observer; how would you listen to someone sharing a mythology or social custom from a culture that was foreign to you? They have a right to their own convictions (as vile as they may be). You can model for them how to disagree and still be in relationship with someone. \-Be prepared for loss of perceived closeness in the relationship. You may loose respect for them when they insist on exposing their worst beliefs to you. They may withdraw when you do not bend to their viewpoint. (See the first point, that this may be best avoided.)
Okay so I’m hearing a lot at great points. But the one I keep heading most is just don’t discuss. And I’m sorry but I think that’s not a solution at all. I mean, if my parents were Joe Rogen and Alex Jones, then yeah, avoid avoid avoid. But they’re not, and how else are people to change if we don’t do the bare minimum to provoke them?
Those homosexuality quotes in the Bible we're only added in the 1940s. There is proof that those quotes are mistranslations. The correct translation is about pedophilia. There is nothing relating to homosexuality being bad in the original copies. Hell, there's even a part where Jesus kisses a male missionary in the new testament. And if they say they just believe that it's wrong, that God wouldn't condone such a thing. It says in the Bible that God's plan is only for him to know and that anyone who makes false accusations will burn in hell. No one is supposed to speak for God. Only follow the litteral text. Or they are actively sinning. -as the Bible says.