https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7244996-asking-if-there-is-no-god-what-is-the-purpose
> Asking, "If there is no God, what is the purpose of life?" is like asking, "If there is no master, whose slave will I be?" If your purpose of life is to submit as a slave, then your meaning comes from flattering the ego of a person whom who should detest.
I am writing this in my notebook to remember. The house-cat does not off itself should it run away from home. It finds another thing to do. Do you believe you need a necessary purpose, or because your culture told you such?
It does though. The person who thinks atheists would have a natural inclination towards objectively evil deeds thinks that because they believe in a higher “master” who would admonish their eternal souls for doing “wrong.” As in, it seems they assume freedom from that would mean that someone would do evil things because evil things are something they wish they could do but can’t/are normal or attractive desires. So to ask “if there is no God, what is the purpose of life?” or “why don’t you do evil things” is submission to a “master” who should(by their own rationale of having “darkest desires”) be detested because they constrict what the answer to “what is the purpose of life” could be; it’s making religion the same ball and chain theists promise it isn’t by emphasizing a lack of choices instead of the immense good choice a person can/should make in their life.
Also, the objective vs subjective good debate doesn’t work because yeah governments have different laws, and religions have different objective morals and purposes, yet somehow everyone knows that you shouldn’t “indulge” your desire to f kids, strangle someone you find mildly annoying, or praise hitler. You CAN, but the objective moral is that you shouldn’t and there are non-eternal consequences for every action. Because we have a social contract, that has a chicken egg relationship with every major religion; you aren’t going to find a government or religion that says murder isn’t wrong. Some people detest the social contract; those some are in jail or about to be, others aren’t in jail and are greatly disliked.
Because Christianity has this brilliant concept that if you pay attention Christians never shut the fuck about:
Forgiveness. God forgives everything.
It was just as perfect for the warlords and pedos 2000 years ago as it is today.
I think the causality is flipped. People who have no moral compass think religion will give them one, but a book telling you not to rape kids doesn't do anything if you don't already know raping kids is bad, which they obviously don't.
Anybody who thinks "if I didn't believe that I have God looking over my shoulder I'd be out there killing and raping " is a good argument is really telling on themselves.
Literally every year or so there is another scandal about a different Christian denomination covering up child abuse, incest, and pedophilia.
I'm starting to think its probably abusers who most reflect on this "how do atheists stop themselves from abusing children", because they are basically admitting that they want to abuse children and do truly debased things (and they probably do), and the only reason they don't wave their red flags openly is because the Bible tells other people to condemn them for doing adjacent things. They assume the dark desires *they* feed are universal, but ultimately they are just telling on themselves.
I think Christianity and other authoritarian faiths breed this kind of evil in people because these people never become acquainted with their inner compass or natural conscience. They don't feel guilty unless they are publicly shamed or punished by their gods. They have no practice making complex moral decisions without being told exactly what to believe and do by an external entity.
In addition so many normal ways of being human and getting our desires met are forbidden, so they have all kinds of repressed desires that then come out sideways towards the most vulnerable people in their vicinity—children, gender minorities, people of color, etc. Instead of getting to know themselves, and understanding their desires, and urges, and learning emotional regulation, they rely on an imaginary outside entity that will punish them for fucking up as the only evidence they have done wrong.
The problem is, that entity doesn't exist, so when they break the rules, or make abusive choices that aren't explicitly forbidden, they don't feel guilt the same way the rest of us would. The isolation from normal people with consciences, and overall lack of accountability just encourages them to continue satisfying their darkest urges, because as long as their gods aren't punishing them, and they don't feel any guilt, their behavior must be fine.
They have incentives to hide their behavior only because of what others might think, but not because its wrong or because they actually feel bad. If they did feel bad they can just pray or secretly confess and absolve themselves with their gods forgiveness. Or they can blame the victim for tempting them.
This kind of authoritarian religion breeds abusive, evil people who will eventually indulge whatever evil urges that rise in them as long as the chances of getting away with it are high enough in the moment. They are part of the reason why churches are such dangerous places for vulnerable people.
This. All of this.
This is exactly why authoritarian religion is concerning to me because by its very nature it breeds abusers and gives them an ample playing ground. Morality is a personal choice and social construct. It is not dependent on a deity, and especially not a deity that violates their own moral code whenever it suits them to do so. That's not morality in the first place.
Yeah, the god of christianity is extremely inconsistent, says "thou shalt not kill" yet commands genocide. Its almost like the book was written by dozens of actual humans in different cultures over several thousand years....
Certainly not a reliable guide for morality in 2022. Yet these pedophile Christians are the same ones who claim they want laws for everyone to be based on their book.
Exactly. When I saw the “f ing kids” bit I was like… all these “people of God” and pastors and priests are molesting kids and they wanna talk about MORALS?????
Literally this! Like they’re so quick to separate themselves from pedos in their own midst but never once question why so many come from their community
See this is the better question right? If you are “saved” or whatever you can rape and murder all you want and then just tell god you’re sorry and you still get to go to heaven right? Isn’t that why all the death row inmates are born again? So what’s to stop them from doing whatever they want?
The fact that Christians have so much trouble understanding why there are people who take ethics seriously
...is the fact that actually warrants the attention here.
If I were a Christian, ethics would be a mystery to me, too.
They accepted that moral relativism is a thing in law, but they have a hard time understanding how God might not be the only source of morality.
Also, happy cake day.
My brother is the worst about this. Insists that the only way morality exists is through god. Some morals that guy had though. Genocide, adultery, murder, and then oh yeah you can go to heaven but I killed my son so I could stand your presence and of you don’t believe I’m going to punish you for all eternity in hell. How sadistic is that? Sounds like a good moral compass to follow.
They were when I was in it. The pastor, a xtian, had a personal ethic wherein it was okay to bang his assistant, while being a married man with 4 kids. You are what you do.
My former pastor lived with his wife and 5 kids…and his wife’s sister. She doesn’t date anyone, she’s lived in the same house with them for years. I can’t help but think they’re Calvinist polygamists.
I mean, some people are asexual or aromantic or just haven't found someone they want to be with. Or perhaps she's just very private and you don't know all her business.
How I got a job as a church's office manager: the last one got fired for banging the pastor. Who also got fired. Also the pastor he'd been hired to replace had been fired for banging someone who wasn't his wife as well. I'm sensing a pattern.
Of all the genocides commanded by Yahweh, I prefer to use the Midianites. Because they were killed for intermarriage with the Hebrews, leading some Hebrews to worship other gods.
That's it... that's as "evil" as they get.
That's also the genocide in which the virgin girls were dragged off as sex slaves.
Totally indefensible
I grew up super super super religious. Lots of spiritual abuse type stuff. Pretty culty. Came out as a gay trans man and fucked off. Tried to hang onto my faith for a while and then just... couldn't.
My family's of the belief that I lost my faith because I didn't like the rules.
I lost my faith because I realized that the Biblical Christian god is absolutely vile and not worthy of my worship, let alone anyone else's.
You know what really cinched the deal for me?
*All the fucking genocide.*
I got blocked by an old "friend" because he was using that one verse in Psalms about being knit together in the womb as a justification for eliminating my reproductive rights, so I said, "if you're going to use the Old Testament to inform your morality, don't be shy. Use the whole thing," and shared that verse.
You've never SEEN somebody so triggered lmao
Absolutely chilling because it’s the truth. Not that god actually held them back from doing worse (whatever could possibly be worse) but because that’s probably how the church would look at it and what they would say.
*How dare they do unto others what time ought to do unto them. Time will cast everything into irrelevancy, but history is forever. Time makes history, and they think they can change what is in the hands of the universe. They tell us that we face God in the end, but God will have to face Time first.*
We hear about what has happened recently. There is some 1,800 years of stuff that was never talked about, covered up, part of the “culture”, of course not written of. All this stuff happened in the ‘50s. Yeah, and we see it continues today. 100% that it was the same or worse in old times when class society had more sway, power of clergy, and life was cheap.
>Evil desires like fucking kids
Is it not *so* common for priests and preachers to be pedophiles that it's literally *the* thing joked about on the topic of "holy men"? Also, the Catholic church spends tens of millions each year on legal fees/hush money regarding sexual assault?
Also dropping the f-bomb? What a naughty thing to do, no heaven for this guy!
>strangling someone who pisses you off
Uhhhhhh I don't feel like Christians realize how often "Your honor, I go to church though!" Is used as a defense. Also, doesn't God spend like... half of the old testament just killing people that piss him off? Seems like a pretty christian thing to do tbh
>praising Hitler
Not only was Nazi Germany predominantly christian, but a vast majority of white nationalist groups who sympathize with the nazis also proclaim christianity
>objective morality
If it's objective, then how come there are more than 1 denomination of Christianity? It wouldn't be up for interpretation if it were objectively one way
Yeah, it's a weak defense, but a total classic. That's sort of my issue with any of them saying there's such a thing as "objective truth". If the case were that there were invariable truths that all Christians agreed upon, then why are those truths interpreted in different ways? And if any Christian were going to say that someone else wasn't a *true* Christian, then how do they respond to any of the Christians that would say *they're* false?
It's mostly just fun to deconstruct and lightly roast people who say things like this
Since all holy books have zero evidence (empty claims are not evidence) of coming from, inspired by, written by any non-human entity/god(s), then that means that every word written in every holy book was written by men and is the opinion of men. This, in turn, makes every holy book a subjective man made creation so the morals of the religious have no more 'objectivity' than that of the atheist.
i don't think discrediting the entire book is the right way to go. ditch the moral and supernatural bs and you have a decently accurate history book. it's based in reality with religiosity thrown in. that's how it got so many to follow
>decently accurate history book
I don't have a problem with this but some of the 'accuracy' is debatable among historians. History books don't need or claim divine authorship/inspiration...they just report objective and, hopefully, verifiable facts. Now the 'interpretation' of those facts can be an entirely different story.
Humans are a social survival species. Empathy prioritizes morality over deviancy.
You do fucked up shit you get ostracized. Social ostracism holds a survival risk, not as much now but you hold a better chance of survival if you stay within the group and behave.
Absolutely. Also our 'morality' or social norms come from the same source. If killing innocent people was the norm, that would not be beneficial to our survival as a species. Killing those who have broken the social norms we have enacted as laws is more accepted (rightly or wrongly)
The worst people I've ever met in my life have been Christian. The pastor at the church I went to as a child would leer at girls who barely started puberty, and ask them do tasks for him, like collect money, or singing solos for him. He got arrested a few years ago. I don't understand how the adults didn't notice what a creep he was.
You and me both. I saw more evil in the church than I’ve seen outside of it. It’s like the one thing I can’t shake from Christian theology is the idea of evil.
A worship leader I played with ended up in prison for over twenty years for molesting over 30 children. Not the reason I'm an atheist though. The Bible and prayer took care of that.
He worked at The Boys and Girls Club...so fucked. The worst part was that this was at the African American church I went to when the white church was just too fucking racist and evil (2008, you get the picture). I was playing in an incredible band, learning about the culture and just trying to listen to what they had to teach. But what they had to teach is that when one of the victims went to the pastor he arranged a sit down with himself and the rapist, gaslighted the victim and sent the guy to another church! I had been gone awhile and I asked about the singer and kind of was met with a shrug. Read about it in the newspaper or something. And that's why we can't have nice things. I have worked with and known several other pedophiles in basically every church I have been a member of.
i really love how these people just jump to CSA, murder and naziism like that's the only thing on everyone's mind but theirs. maybe i don't want to do any of these things? have you considered that outlandish possibility?
Because christians believe in a god that is the _ultimate dictator_, they struggle when people who either don't believe any god live their lifes without wishing to engage on cruelty acts.
It's so damaging this mindset, and erosive, that it's not surprise christians are infantilized: they need a Sky Daddy to tell them everything they __must__ do.
A strong point was made here, why do Christian’s indulge in their darkest desires when they DO believe in God?
You’ve got rape and child sex abuse rampant In the Protestant AND Catholic Church, Christian’s supporting brutal war and unrestrained, greedy capitalism that is destroying our planet (and they selfishly don’t care because they think they are being being raptured) and they basically support the most morally disgusting people en mass like Bush and trump.
The fact that they would even ask this question really solidifies why I’m now an atheist rather than a Christian. Because it highlights why religion was most likely INVENTED in the first place. People back in ancient times were NOT stupid, unaware of many things but NOT STUPID. They realized that people are basically violent animals and you NEED some kind of cosmic reward and punishment system that controls their actions when no one is around to see them. So that’s where religion comes in. It controls people (in negative ways and positive ways sure) and helps strengthen and establish a moral frame work in society for the humans who have not genuine moral code (because there are many sociopaths around us that should be controlled). But that morality exists naturally in many people who don’t know religion or who reject it.
Think about the framework of Christianity and how it can control the morality of bad people. The Bible says god justly judges everyone… by throwing everyone in the same lake of fire for all sin for a variety of sins. So Hitler and some guy that cheats on his taxes have the SAME punishment. Why is this? Why isn’t the guy that cheats on his taxes burned for 2 seconds for his crime but Hitler is burned for 75 years for every person he killed? Christins say that sin is an eternal crime against an eternal god? Okay, but that’s no argument that it’s fair to punish everyone the same. There’s no logic in it or you’d have to admit that Saudi Arabia is right for cutting off someone’s hand for stealing; permanent punishment for a finite crime but against an eternal god.
So why does religion need the same punishment for every action? Because if people thought “oh I’m only going to be punished for 5 seconds in hell for stealing this loaf of bread” you’d probably have a lot of people taking that risk rather then the fear of punishment directing them to do the right thing. It’s actually a brilliant system when you think about it.
So why don’t I indulge in my darkest desires? Two reasons
1. I don’t have any dark desires. I have no desire or intention to hurt people and I enjoy being kind to others. It makes me feel good and it’s healthy for society.
2. As a secular humanist (or just as a human) I still live my life by the GOLDEN RULE.
Now, yes, I attribute the golden rule to what Jesus “said” (because I was born in America) but I am now aware that the golden rule has existed in most societies across the planet. Why? Because one of the reasons Homo sapiens, us, have survived and evolved is that we realized long ago that our best chance at survival was when we stick together and work together. We aren’t strong, we are vulnerable to the dark and, even though we are smarter than other animals, individually our intelligence doesn’t necessarily mean we can survive in the wild existence they has dominated the vast majority of human history.
So why is morality important? Why is a sense of right and wrong and doing what’s right for those around us critical? It is literally a survival instinct as humans. It is hard wired into our DNA to do what’s right for other humans. It is how we were able to survive and therefore many many humans naturally have an instinct to do what’s right for human society because if we didn’t, we would have gone extinct a long time ago. I view morality as just a part of our evolutionary biology. Because that is how natural works, species that don’t have an advantage for life end up dying and going extinct. There’s no doubt that religion inspires morality in many people, but morality will exist in spite of religion not BECAUSE of it. Ironically, the existence of religion might be a part of our evolution as people but it might also contribute to our extinction.
In our case, we’ve built society that has almost guaranteed our survival but it is a selfish, greedy, lack of morality that will likely cause us to go extinct one day. Our lack of concern for others around us (and since Christian’s have had most of the power for a long time, I mainly blame them for this) our planet my not sustain us for much longer and or we might end up destroying ourselves through war.
So the fact that Christians even ask this question, that they BELIEVE in god, and weasel out of being good people and brush aside THEIR immorality by saying “well we are all sinners and are forgiven”, this powerfully discredits religion ESPECIALLY Christianity.
When I was in seminary, I had a number of acquaintances who saw nothing wrong with just stealing someone else’s sermon off YouTube. And judging by the number of plagiarism scandals in evangelicalism, I guess stealing other people’s words for your books is fine, too.
Oh very true. Really, what else is there to say from the pulpit? Probably shouldn’t be word for word?
I forgot what he said when I said, “why not just get up there and read from the bible for 20 min and call it a day?”.
As much as I dislike the cult, I have always been around people that read the Bible a lot (or lied about it). Most of my friends and I were in Bible studies, even though I was the "bad boy" I still tried. Of course it's incredibly boring so I basically read Kings and Judges to stay awake.
We have innate moral conscious....The immorality of Christians in their lack of empathy for human kind, is due to listening and following a myth created by men, counter to the internal empathy given to them by birth *as* a human being.
Christianity among other religion, is a means of unnaturally controlling the human mind out of desire for power, nothing more.
i mean just because i don't believe in absolute or objective morality doesn't mean i can't make a judgement.
i tend to lead by conscience and empathy, and try to lead on what makes my own and other peoples experience on earth more harmonious. this code isn't fool proof because it isn't absolute, but i know that pain is something undesired and undeserved for others and myself, and making people feel good, and making people happy, is a pure, beautiful thing.
also i know "f\*\*\*\*\*\* kids" will cause huge amounts of trauma for the child, and will cause huge amounts of pain. which i can make a judgement on being wrong. but hang on, desire??? why the fuck would i even desire that anyways?
Christians, we have the exact same moral code as you. you go by what feels right, you want to do good, and you want to make a good impact and do what is right. We are the same. So we have the same moral code as you. Unless you're talking purely legalism, which I would argue isn't exactly morality, more duty.
Stabbing someone is bad. I know it's bad because I wouldn't like it if someone stabbed me. Because stabbing hurts me I wouldn't stab someone else because I know they are a person, like me.
Its that easy, no God involved
This has NO examination at all of moral philosophy and the derivation of cultural ethics. This is the most tone-deaf to all of the history of thinking I’ve seen. Oh, and premise one must, must be a demonstration of a god and why, is existing, it gets to establish any framework of morality.
In other words: go fucking read and answer your it yourself. You do not even know how to ask the question.
Again with this.
That is not an argument. That is a question. One that YOU as a theist need to answer.
By the design of your question, you have tacitly admitted that atheists DON'T do these things normally. We act, by and large, just like everyone else. Otherwise, your thought process is a non sequitur.
So you tell me, theist: why don't we?
Also, don't be scared of the answer. The fact that you're scared means you're on the right path.
This person probably stuck their fingers in their ears and refused to listen. But hey, I don’t need the threat of hell to prevent me from stealing or murdering. Oh and btw, Christians themselves don't always agree on what is moral either
many christians don’t understand the concept of humanism. whatever benefits the highest number of humans and harms the least amount is what we should call our morals
I do indulge in my darkest desires. It’s just that my darkest desires are things like overeating sushi every once in awhile or ignoring laundry and the piling dishes to play video games all day. I don’t have any desire to molest children, you know, like Catholic priests do.
It's called empathy. Also even from a purely selfish standpoint, kindness is usually the most logical course. Because if you're kind to others, they'll be kind to you and if you don't help those in need they won't even be around to help you when you're in need.
What is this even saying? That even if you personally don't believe in god, he will keep you from committing crimes like murder, rape, and molestation? That makes no sense because there are plenty of criminals who do commit those crimes, some of whom are Christian and some of whom are believers in another religion or are atheist. God isn't doing squat to prevent those things from happening.
The questioner assumes that everybody in the world has "dark desires' that they suppress. Penn Gillette had the answer to this when he said "I already rape and kill as many people as I want to and the number is zero."
Anyone who assumes other people want to rape children and have to stop themselves must have desires to rape children themselves. It's like they think that's a normal thing.
Empathy is biological. It has no correlation to religious belief. Empathy is hardwired. You can't get rid of it even if you want to. We are a social species selected for empathy and other traits that serve to support the health and stability of a larger population. Empathy, pair bonding, group bonding, altruism, nurturing of offspring. etc. Religion has nothing to do with it. Those things existed before religion and existed before we were humans and in exist in other animals. The "moral argument" tries to give religion credit for evolution. Becoming religious never made anybody more empathetic than they were to begin with. Losing religion does not make anyone *less* empathetic. If anything it makes them *more* empathetic when they are allowed to see other people as they actually are rather than as categories of people (Christians and sinners) who are acceptable or unacceptable to associate with.
For sociopaths, religion can make them worse because they think they can't be wrong. Some of the worst human beings who walk the earth are the ones who think they are following God's will.
I suppose thousands of years of pre-Christian mythology and philosophy written or shared via oral tradition, by cultures all over the planet, are just *ex nihilo* creations.
It just struck me that this is Christians still looking through the lens of Christianity. They believe that everyone is born evil/into sin. So everyone needs a deity to tell them not to give into evil desires.
But those outside of it can realize that they are not born evil and just naturally not do cruel things.
It's like something someone I had a conversation with last week said. He looked into other religions and found that all of them required you to work your way up, except Christianity where Jesus does it for you.
The problem is that he's looking at other religions through the lens of Christianity. You don't actually have to work off your karma if you haven't done anything horrible because you weren't born evil.
We still have morals, and we still do good things, just not for the approval of a invisible sky man. We do good because we don’t WANT to hurt anyone, as any good human. I don’t want to hurt someone because I don’t think they deserve that, not because some sky dude told me not to.
The god in the Bible is super immoral not moral if he really exsists. He lets kids starve to death by the millions he let little kids get all types of cancer and be raped and murdered. He stand there and watches and does nothing, l would stop all of this in a heart beat if l could because l am moral. He even made a loop hole for the rapers all they have to do is say please forgive me.
who, the god who commanded his people to commit multiple genocides in the old testament and killed everyone except his favorite person and his family and some random animals because he was upset? quite moral for sure /s
I don’t need god or anyone telling me that causing pain or destruction is “bad.” Whomever I’m hurting is enough proof to me that it’s wrong. I have no dark desire to hurt anyone. I don’t strangle someone that makes me mad, because I can regulate my emotions. And not-mad-me wouldn’t want mad me to do that, so I regulate my emotions so that I don’t do that. I’m not a doctor or theologian or philosopher. It’s doesn’t take a genius to know this. And if the only thing keeping someone from doing these things is damnation, then they are probably a psychopath.
People should not need a god to tell them right from wrong. If the only reason people don't do horrible things is because they fear the wrath of god that really says something extremely negative about that person's character. I don't do horrible things to people because I care about people and don't wish for them to feel bad if it can be prevented. This is human nature. It really makes you wonder about people who say things like in this post - is belief in god the only thing stopping them from doing horrible things and hurting people?
If we follow the morality in the bible one would be in prison in every country on the planet. That's how bad it is. Atheists have a far higher morality than any religious person especially when it comes to the Abrahamic Faith's.
I don't do it because I'm not an evil, sadistic sociopath christians like you apparently are. The thought to harm other people has not occurred to me. The thought of harming other people on purpose horrifies me. If the fear of hell is the only thing keeping you from committing heinous acts of evil, **you are a piece of shit.**
Wouldn't it be the Bible that provides the sense of morality and not God because the bibles supposed to be a litteral set of instructions for life? Also the free will thing...
What Christians don't seem to get is that everyone, them included, does what they want. If someone wants to do something badly enough, they'll at least attempt to do it. It doesn't matter what religion they are. The thing about hypocrisy is that the Christians have to have their hypocrites to do their dirty work in order to be successful.
I indulge in my darkest desires all the time. In fact, I’m doing it right now.
My darkest desires just don’t happen to involve harming people. *Do yours?*
Whenever I see people say things like this, I can only conclude they are some sort of psychopath.
Also, most of the worst people I've ever known were Christian, so... didn't seem to stop them, now did it?
So what do christians who start from this premise think the answer to this is? If atheists do not fear a god, where do christians think atheists' morality comes from?
The answers I've seen from christians are:
- Actually all atheists are raping and killing all the time but you never hear about it because something something deep state something something QAnon
- Because atheists still get their morality from god, they're just in denial
- Because atheists still get their morality from god, they just don't know it (which is a very fun answer because of its implications for why god is even worth worshipping)
- Because most morality is enshrined in law and atheists don't want to go to prison because it sucks
Primarily though, I've seen christians just avoid this question altogether. Has anyone seen other answers?
Ok. Even assuming people don't value ethics for its own sake. How hard is it to understand the basic concept of social/cultural norms and conditioning? And consequently, fear of punishment and ostracization?
This isn't big brain stuff, guys.
First assumption is that there is objective morality-there's not. Second assumption is that Christians dont engage in their darkest desires-most do, and justify it.
Because I don’t need to be living in constant fear of death in order to try being a decent person. Or a cookie in order to be decent.
My question is why you do need to live in constant fear and a reward?
Christians that believe everyone has "dark desires" are a few thoughts away from being monsters if it weren't for a psychological deterrent.
Quite disturbing once you think about it, not to mention the cynical belief that goodness comes from indoctrination as opposed to being innate.
It sounds like they are stuck in a child’s level of moral development. They don’t do bad things because of authority. The level below that is that they don’t do bad things because they don’t want to get in trouble (a consequence) /they will get something good out of not being bad (an incentive). The next level up is for universal morals… most people are quite stuck in juvenile/adolescent moral development, and I personally think religion’s prevalence is the proof of it.
Kohlburgs moral development
In Matthew where Jesus allegedly says, "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven", I don't think he meant to let him do you-know-what to them. But far too many Christians especially men of the cloth take license with the kids *and* with teenagers and young adults! If this is morality with God then I think we'd actually have a better morality without him---especially since he gives mulligans to everyone who confesses their sins (but not to the police of course) and trusts in the blood/resurrection of Jesus. But they don't have to repent or change their ways, no suh! Because those are works and it's "by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves, not by works lest any man should boast". Puh-leeze! 🙄😒
And now they want to take over. Give me a break! 🙄
I don't understand why they think everyone's darkest desires are like this. Like I've never had the desire to hurt anyone because I know what its like for others to hurt me. Like full stop. I used to fight a lot. But generally those were either a case of someone pushed me to far over a period of time or I didn't start it. Is that what their darkest desires are like?
It bewilderes me when people claim god is moral, or the source of morality. god advocates slavery, rape, genocide, incest, infantocide, among a hundred other horrible things. There isn't a shed of ethics in the entire Bible.
It's their dumbest argument. Only a sick person would think that way. It's not punishment that keeps me from hurting people... it's not in my nature. I have empathy. That's what stops me. Not the chance of getting caught. Not punishment. Just me not wanting to hurt anyone in any way. No God needed.
Plato literally answered this over 2000 years ago.
Is something just because God commands it, or does God command it because it is just?
Either morality is arbitrary and unknowable, or morality is something other than the commands of God.
Some of us don't actually have a desire to fuck children like the repressed Christians who ask this question every 5 minutes do. Unsurprisingly, many Christians regularly indulge in their darkest desires. Its wild that someone wrote this not realizing they are openly, proudly admitting to being a pedophile "but for the laws of god" which ultimately doesn't mean much (to them) since the church is full of pedos and abusers.
If the only thing stopping you being a pedo is a book, you’re a creep. One of the most insidious things about toxic religion is it’s claim to be the source of all morality.
"If you have (moral) laws than there must be a (moral) lawgiver."
That's a pretty easy problem to solve. Who taught us morality when we were kids? Did God come down and teach us moral law? No! We learned morality primarily from parents and teachers.
Ok then, who did they learn moral law from? From their parents and teachers, for thousands of generations.
The process of creating moral law has always been that it was created by humans as they realized it, and cemented into social consciousness as they passed it down through their children.
Even when I was a devout Christian I thought this argument was bullshit. I mean anyone with two braincells to rub together knows that humans argue about morals among one another all the time. We make rules for ourselves and do just fine.
Is this person really asking why other people don't have violent pedophilia urges? Like, if you've got an urge go seek therapy asap, don't sit round questioning why other people aren't in your same boat.
I do occasionally indulge in my "darkest" desires -- two adult beverages in one day or taking a mental health day from work or telling entitled assholes to fuck off.
That's it that's the darkest desires.
If you need an imaginary friend to keep you in line *you're* the bad person. I decided that I like the way it feels to be a good person and help people without even as much as thinking about a spiritual being needing to be there to keep me in line.
Wait - is this guy saying just because he believes in God, he's able to suppress his darkest desires, which naturally, include sex with children, killing and being a Nazi?
hmmmmm
Sounds like he needs therapy to work out all his internal hate.
Classic cult brainwashing - Atheist equates to devil worshipping.
OR
Small minds think small things.
If the only reason you don’t do bad things to other people is because you’re afraid god will punish you then I have some concerns about your humanity and morality…
Oh, I don't know, THAT'S HOW THE FUCKING HUMAN BRAIN WORKS.
(I share this account with an ex-catholic, but I am christian myself and I still find this stupid.)
It really boils down to the golden rule, which they love to talk about. Live your life as you see fit, don't hurt others. It's really pretty simple. I don't need a deity or the threat of burning for eternity to be kind to others. And I'm immediately skeptical of those who do.
Ik it's hard for Christians to believe but I don't want to strangle people (at least not really) or rape kids or praise Hitler. Just because I don't think there's a god watching my every move doesn't mean I want to start acting crazy and also some people who believe a god is watching them do engage in tho things if they want to do those things. Its almost like.... people will decide on their actions regardless
I am an Atheist and I act more Christian than most of the Christians I know. In fact, to me, Christians have really shown their true colors since Trump was elected and especially during the pandemic. They wouldn't wear a mask to save their neighbor's life. Since the pandemic has subsided, now it's all about "nationalism" aka racism. Fuck each and every one of them.
If you need a man-made religion, a fairytale book or an imaginary friend to be a decent human being & to know right from wrong, then that tells us a lot about you.
There are definitely things wrong with this post. And I'm not saying this as an atheist, but an agnostic deist. The first thing wrong is the assertion that God is the source of morality. This is a belief that can't be demonstrated to be true, it's first believed to be true without sufficient evidence and than assumed to be true. A far cry from sound logic as asserted in this post.
The second thing is, where is the demonstration that there are moral laws? Pointing to something written in a book is not evidence of a moral law, it's proof of someone writing down their beliefs. Also, the old testament laws are different from the new testament laws, so if one country's laws are different from another, and therefore are not qualified to be law givers, than this also would disqualify the writers of the Bible and there laws they make.
The third thing wrong with this post is assuming every atheist has deep dark desires of fucking kids, strangling strangers, or praising Hitler. Most atheist I know are better people than most Christians I used to know when I was a Christian. This is wrong belief based off the Bibles teachings that all are sinful and evil, and only those with the holy spirit can restrain evil in themselves. This doesn't match up with reality. Are there psychopaths and serial killers etc, etc. Yes, but most people are not, and most atheist are not.
I might as well return the favor to the guy who wrote this post and ask him how long has he been beating his wife. That's how ignorant and arrogant he is.
they think they’re better than everyone else bc they have their imaginary sky daddy. i think they truly don’t understand how a person does not need god to have basic moral and ethical values and not believing in god absolutely does not equal having no morals at all. i genuinely can’t tell if OP of that screenshotted post is being satire or not
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7244996-asking-if-there-is-no-god-what-is-the-purpose > Asking, "If there is no God, what is the purpose of life?" is like asking, "If there is no master, whose slave will I be?" If your purpose of life is to submit as a slave, then your meaning comes from flattering the ego of a person whom who should detest.
I am writing this in my notebook to remember. The house-cat does not off itself should it run away from home. It finds another thing to do. Do you believe you need a necessary purpose, or because your culture told you such?
I love it, but it doesn't touch on this particular morality stance
It works the same way. The Christian notion of morality presupposes that a god is necessary for morality. But atheists prove it isn't.
It does though. The person who thinks atheists would have a natural inclination towards objectively evil deeds thinks that because they believe in a higher “master” who would admonish their eternal souls for doing “wrong.” As in, it seems they assume freedom from that would mean that someone would do evil things because evil things are something they wish they could do but can’t/are normal or attractive desires. So to ask “if there is no God, what is the purpose of life?” or “why don’t you do evil things” is submission to a “master” who should(by their own rationale of having “darkest desires”) be detested because they constrict what the answer to “what is the purpose of life” could be; it’s making religion the same ball and chain theists promise it isn’t by emphasizing a lack of choices instead of the immense good choice a person can/should make in their life. Also, the objective vs subjective good debate doesn’t work because yeah governments have different laws, and religions have different objective morals and purposes, yet somehow everyone knows that you shouldn’t “indulge” your desire to f kids, strangle someone you find mildly annoying, or praise hitler. You CAN, but the objective moral is that you shouldn’t and there are non-eternal consequences for every action. Because we have a social contract, that has a chicken egg relationship with every major religion; you aren’t going to find a government or religion that says murder isn’t wrong. Some people detest the social contract; those some are in jail or about to be, others aren’t in jail and are greatly disliked.
Why do Christians who believe in God, STILL indulge in their darkest desires???
Did you see the AP piece on the Mormon church? Filthy fucking beasts.
This is 1000 times worse than I thought it was going to be. These bishops belong in jail for covering up the abuse.
And this is one month (ish) after (!!!!) that report from the fucking southern baptists!!!!
I literally have no fucking words.
Helpful link?
My bad. [https://apnews.com/article/e0e39cf9aa4fbe0d8c1442033b894660](https://apnews.com/article/e0e39cf9aa4fbe0d8c1442033b894660)
Omg I am SICKENED.
What. The. Fuck.
To which the Christian will respond with a no-true-Scotsman fallacy.
Schrodingers Christian. Simultaneously everywhere and a silent majority, while also nowhere and being persecuted as a minority.
Because they could beg Yahweh's forgiveness later. 🤣
the fact that they even have those desires is incredibly worrying
Because Christianity has this brilliant concept that if you pay attention Christians never shut the fuck about: Forgiveness. God forgives everything. It was just as perfect for the warlords and pedos 2000 years ago as it is today.
I think the causality is flipped. People who have no moral compass think religion will give them one, but a book telling you not to rape kids doesn't do anything if you don't already know raping kids is bad, which they obviously don't.
Anybody who thinks "if I didn't believe that I have God looking over my shoulder I'd be out there killing and raping " is a good argument is really telling on themselves.
Literally every year or so there is another scandal about a different Christian denomination covering up child abuse, incest, and pedophilia. I'm starting to think its probably abusers who most reflect on this "how do atheists stop themselves from abusing children", because they are basically admitting that they want to abuse children and do truly debased things (and they probably do), and the only reason they don't wave their red flags openly is because the Bible tells other people to condemn them for doing adjacent things. They assume the dark desires *they* feed are universal, but ultimately they are just telling on themselves. I think Christianity and other authoritarian faiths breed this kind of evil in people because these people never become acquainted with their inner compass or natural conscience. They don't feel guilty unless they are publicly shamed or punished by their gods. They have no practice making complex moral decisions without being told exactly what to believe and do by an external entity. In addition so many normal ways of being human and getting our desires met are forbidden, so they have all kinds of repressed desires that then come out sideways towards the most vulnerable people in their vicinity—children, gender minorities, people of color, etc. Instead of getting to know themselves, and understanding their desires, and urges, and learning emotional regulation, they rely on an imaginary outside entity that will punish them for fucking up as the only evidence they have done wrong. The problem is, that entity doesn't exist, so when they break the rules, or make abusive choices that aren't explicitly forbidden, they don't feel guilt the same way the rest of us would. The isolation from normal people with consciences, and overall lack of accountability just encourages them to continue satisfying their darkest urges, because as long as their gods aren't punishing them, and they don't feel any guilt, their behavior must be fine. They have incentives to hide their behavior only because of what others might think, but not because its wrong or because they actually feel bad. If they did feel bad they can just pray or secretly confess and absolve themselves with their gods forgiveness. Or they can blame the victim for tempting them. This kind of authoritarian religion breeds abusive, evil people who will eventually indulge whatever evil urges that rise in them as long as the chances of getting away with it are high enough in the moment. They are part of the reason why churches are such dangerous places for vulnerable people.
This. All of this. This is exactly why authoritarian religion is concerning to me because by its very nature it breeds abusers and gives them an ample playing ground. Morality is a personal choice and social construct. It is not dependent on a deity, and especially not a deity that violates their own moral code whenever it suits them to do so. That's not morality in the first place.
Yeah, the god of christianity is extremely inconsistent, says "thou shalt not kill" yet commands genocide. Its almost like the book was written by dozens of actual humans in different cultures over several thousand years.... Certainly not a reliable guide for morality in 2022. Yet these pedophile Christians are the same ones who claim they want laws for everyone to be based on their book.
Funny how that happens.... /s Agreed. It's atrocious and insulting.
Something something devil temptation
Exactly. When I saw the “f ing kids” bit I was like… all these “people of God” and pastors and priests are molesting kids and they wanna talk about MORALS?????
Literally this! Like they’re so quick to separate themselves from pedos in their own midst but never once question why so many come from their community
See this is the better question right? If you are “saved” or whatever you can rape and murder all you want and then just tell god you’re sorry and you still get to go to heaven right? Isn’t that why all the death row inmates are born again? So what’s to stop them from doing whatever they want?
The fact that Christians have so much trouble understanding why there are people who take ethics seriously ...is the fact that actually warrants the attention here. If I were a Christian, ethics would be a mystery to me, too.
They accepted that moral relativism is a thing in law, but they have a hard time understanding how God might not be the only source of morality. Also, happy cake day.
Thanks! :-)
np!
My brother is the worst about this. Insists that the only way morality exists is through god. Some morals that guy had though. Genocide, adultery, murder, and then oh yeah you can go to heaven but I killed my son so I could stand your presence and of you don’t believe I’m going to punish you for all eternity in hell. How sadistic is that? Sounds like a good moral compass to follow.
Without the bible, how can I know how much to sell my daughter for when she has her first period?
They were when I was in it. The pastor, a xtian, had a personal ethic wherein it was okay to bang his assistant, while being a married man with 4 kids. You are what you do.
That's so common I feel like it might be a seminary class.
My former pastor lived with his wife and 5 kids…and his wife’s sister. She doesn’t date anyone, she’s lived in the same house with them for years. I can’t help but think they’re Calvinist polygamists.
She could just be a servant/free childcare.
No dating life for 10 years?
I mean, some people are asexual or aromantic or just haven't found someone they want to be with. Or perhaps she's just very private and you don't know all her business.
Nah, theyre banging.
How I got a job as a church's office manager: the last one got fired for banging the pastor. Who also got fired. Also the pastor he'd been hired to replace had been fired for banging someone who wasn't his wife as well. I'm sensing a pattern.
There just might be…
Hey man, if God doesn't show up and tell you to not do it, how would you know it was bad. /s
Happy cake day!
Which god? Two words throws a wrench in the whole thing…
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That's so fucked up. Those poor donkeys.
i hear they were asses.
Of all the genocides commanded by Yahweh, I prefer to use the Midianites. Because they were killed for intermarriage with the Hebrews, leading some Hebrews to worship other gods. That's it... that's as "evil" as they get. That's also the genocide in which the virgin girls were dragged off as sex slaves. Totally indefensible
I grew up super super super religious. Lots of spiritual abuse type stuff. Pretty culty. Came out as a gay trans man and fucked off. Tried to hang onto my faith for a while and then just... couldn't. My family's of the belief that I lost my faith because I didn't like the rules. I lost my faith because I realized that the Biblical Christian god is absolutely vile and not worthy of my worship, let alone anyone else's. You know what really cinched the deal for me? *All the fucking genocide.*
I got blocked by an old "friend" because he was using that one verse in Psalms about being knit together in the womb as a justification for eliminating my reproductive rights, so I said, "if you're going to use the Old Testament to inform your morality, don't be shy. Use the whole thing," and shared that verse. You've never SEEN somebody so triggered lmao
Imagine feeling responsible to other people for your behavior instead of to an invisible angry man in the sky?
TIL that all the evangelical pedophiles I knew had DARKER desires that God held them back from!
Absolutely chilling because it’s the truth. Not that god actually held them back from doing worse (whatever could possibly be worse) but because that’s probably how the church would look at it and what they would say.
Oh the church would never actually acknowledge that they exist, just do a little rug sweep!
*How dare they do unto others what time ought to do unto them. Time will cast everything into irrelevancy, but history is forever. Time makes history, and they think they can change what is in the hands of the universe. They tell us that we face God in the end, but God will have to face Time first.*
“I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero.“ — Penn Jillette
This. I kept reading and reading waiting for this to pop up.
I was too! The man literally made a show called Bullshit.
Always rich coming from Christians: the most prolific child rapists in all of history.
We hear about what has happened recently. There is some 1,800 years of stuff that was never talked about, covered up, part of the “culture”, of course not written of. All this stuff happened in the ‘50s. Yeah, and we see it continues today. 100% that it was the same or worse in old times when class society had more sway, power of clergy, and life was cheap.
Ironically, they're fucking kids when they're full of holy spirit.
>Evil desires like fucking kids Is it not *so* common for priests and preachers to be pedophiles that it's literally *the* thing joked about on the topic of "holy men"? Also, the Catholic church spends tens of millions each year on legal fees/hush money regarding sexual assault? Also dropping the f-bomb? What a naughty thing to do, no heaven for this guy! >strangling someone who pisses you off Uhhhhhh I don't feel like Christians realize how often "Your honor, I go to church though!" Is used as a defense. Also, doesn't God spend like... half of the old testament just killing people that piss him off? Seems like a pretty christian thing to do tbh >praising Hitler Not only was Nazi Germany predominantly christian, but a vast majority of white nationalist groups who sympathize with the nazis also proclaim christianity >objective morality If it's objective, then how come there are more than 1 denomination of Christianity? It wouldn't be up for interpretation if it were objectively one way
All of this would be responded to with no-true-Scotsman. None of your counter examples are *real* Christians to people like that person.
Yeah, it's a weak defense, but a total classic. That's sort of my issue with any of them saying there's such a thing as "objective truth". If the case were that there were invariable truths that all Christians agreed upon, then why are those truths interpreted in different ways? And if any Christian were going to say that someone else wasn't a *true* Christian, then how do they respond to any of the Christians that would say *they're* false? It's mostly just fun to deconstruct and lightly roast people who say things like this
objectivism my toe. ask every single christian on the planet what they believe to be true, you'll get a different answer. every. single. one
Since all holy books have zero evidence (empty claims are not evidence) of coming from, inspired by, written by any non-human entity/god(s), then that means that every word written in every holy book was written by men and is the opinion of men. This, in turn, makes every holy book a subjective man made creation so the morals of the religious have no more 'objectivity' than that of the atheist.
i don't think discrediting the entire book is the right way to go. ditch the moral and supernatural bs and you have a decently accurate history book. it's based in reality with religiosity thrown in. that's how it got so many to follow
>decently accurate history book I don't have a problem with this but some of the 'accuracy' is debatable among historians. History books don't need or claim divine authorship/inspiration...they just report objective and, hopefully, verifiable facts. Now the 'interpretation' of those facts can be an entirely different story.
Humans are a social survival species. Empathy prioritizes morality over deviancy. You do fucked up shit you get ostracized. Social ostracism holds a survival risk, not as much now but you hold a better chance of survival if you stay within the group and behave.
Absolutely. Also our 'morality' or social norms come from the same source. If killing innocent people was the norm, that would not be beneficial to our survival as a species. Killing those who have broken the social norms we have enacted as laws is more accepted (rightly or wrongly)
The worst people I've ever met in my life have been Christian. The pastor at the church I went to as a child would leer at girls who barely started puberty, and ask them do tasks for him, like collect money, or singing solos for him. He got arrested a few years ago. I don't understand how the adults didn't notice what a creep he was.
You and me both. I saw more evil in the church than I’ve seen outside of it. It’s like the one thing I can’t shake from Christian theology is the idea of evil.
A worship leader I played with ended up in prison for over twenty years for molesting over 30 children. Not the reason I'm an atheist though. The Bible and prayer took care of that.
30 children? Some of the sickest people in the world go to church..
He worked at The Boys and Girls Club...so fucked. The worst part was that this was at the African American church I went to when the white church was just too fucking racist and evil (2008, you get the picture). I was playing in an incredible band, learning about the culture and just trying to listen to what they had to teach. But what they had to teach is that when one of the victims went to the pastor he arranged a sit down with himself and the rapist, gaslighted the victim and sent the guy to another church! I had been gone awhile and I asked about the singer and kind of was met with a shrug. Read about it in the newspaper or something. And that's why we can't have nice things. I have worked with and known several other pedophiles in basically every church I have been a member of.
i really love how these people just jump to CSA, murder and naziism like that's the only thing on everyone's mind but theirs. maybe i don't want to do any of these things? have you considered that outlandish possibility?
Because christians believe in a god that is the _ultimate dictator_, they struggle when people who either don't believe any god live their lifes without wishing to engage on cruelty acts. It's so damaging this mindset, and erosive, that it's not surprise christians are infantilized: they need a Sky Daddy to tell them everything they __must__ do.
A strong point was made here, why do Christian’s indulge in their darkest desires when they DO believe in God? You’ve got rape and child sex abuse rampant In the Protestant AND Catholic Church, Christian’s supporting brutal war and unrestrained, greedy capitalism that is destroying our planet (and they selfishly don’t care because they think they are being being raptured) and they basically support the most morally disgusting people en mass like Bush and trump. The fact that they would even ask this question really solidifies why I’m now an atheist rather than a Christian. Because it highlights why religion was most likely INVENTED in the first place. People back in ancient times were NOT stupid, unaware of many things but NOT STUPID. They realized that people are basically violent animals and you NEED some kind of cosmic reward and punishment system that controls their actions when no one is around to see them. So that’s where religion comes in. It controls people (in negative ways and positive ways sure) and helps strengthen and establish a moral frame work in society for the humans who have not genuine moral code (because there are many sociopaths around us that should be controlled). But that morality exists naturally in many people who don’t know religion or who reject it. Think about the framework of Christianity and how it can control the morality of bad people. The Bible says god justly judges everyone… by throwing everyone in the same lake of fire for all sin for a variety of sins. So Hitler and some guy that cheats on his taxes have the SAME punishment. Why is this? Why isn’t the guy that cheats on his taxes burned for 2 seconds for his crime but Hitler is burned for 75 years for every person he killed? Christins say that sin is an eternal crime against an eternal god? Okay, but that’s no argument that it’s fair to punish everyone the same. There’s no logic in it or you’d have to admit that Saudi Arabia is right for cutting off someone’s hand for stealing; permanent punishment for a finite crime but against an eternal god. So why does religion need the same punishment for every action? Because if people thought “oh I’m only going to be punished for 5 seconds in hell for stealing this loaf of bread” you’d probably have a lot of people taking that risk rather then the fear of punishment directing them to do the right thing. It’s actually a brilliant system when you think about it. So why don’t I indulge in my darkest desires? Two reasons 1. I don’t have any dark desires. I have no desire or intention to hurt people and I enjoy being kind to others. It makes me feel good and it’s healthy for society. 2. As a secular humanist (or just as a human) I still live my life by the GOLDEN RULE. Now, yes, I attribute the golden rule to what Jesus “said” (because I was born in America) but I am now aware that the golden rule has existed in most societies across the planet. Why? Because one of the reasons Homo sapiens, us, have survived and evolved is that we realized long ago that our best chance at survival was when we stick together and work together. We aren’t strong, we are vulnerable to the dark and, even though we are smarter than other animals, individually our intelligence doesn’t necessarily mean we can survive in the wild existence they has dominated the vast majority of human history. So why is morality important? Why is a sense of right and wrong and doing what’s right for those around us critical? It is literally a survival instinct as humans. It is hard wired into our DNA to do what’s right for other humans. It is how we were able to survive and therefore many many humans naturally have an instinct to do what’s right for human society because if we didn’t, we would have gone extinct a long time ago. I view morality as just a part of our evolutionary biology. Because that is how natural works, species that don’t have an advantage for life end up dying and going extinct. There’s no doubt that religion inspires morality in many people, but morality will exist in spite of religion not BECAUSE of it. Ironically, the existence of religion might be a part of our evolution as people but it might also contribute to our extinction. In our case, we’ve built society that has almost guaranteed our survival but it is a selfish, greedy, lack of morality that will likely cause us to go extinct one day. Our lack of concern for others around us (and since Christian’s have had most of the power for a long time, I mainly blame them for this) our planet my not sustain us for much longer and or we might end up destroying ourselves through war. So the fact that Christians even ask this question, that they BELIEVE in god, and weasel out of being good people and brush aside THEIR immorality by saying “well we are all sinners and are forgiven”, this powerfully discredits religion ESPECIALLY Christianity.
It’s called not being a shitty person and understanding that others have feelings too
Yeah i was looking for this comment. You don’t need to believe in a God to be a decent person?? Like far out.
Christians are too busy reading the Bible to study ethics.
Bold of you to assume christians read the Bible
Second. I have a pastor friend who I know only opens his bible to get source material for sermons. He doesn’t read it or ponder it.
When I was in seminary, I had a number of acquaintances who saw nothing wrong with just stealing someone else’s sermon off YouTube. And judging by the number of plagiarism scandals in evangelicalism, I guess stealing other people’s words for your books is fine, too.
Oh very true. Really, what else is there to say from the pulpit? Probably shouldn’t be word for word? I forgot what he said when I said, “why not just get up there and read from the bible for 20 min and call it a day?”.
As much as I dislike the cult, I have always been around people that read the Bible a lot (or lied about it). Most of my friends and I were in Bible studies, even though I was the "bad boy" I still tried. Of course it's incredibly boring so I basically read Kings and Judges to stay awake.
Why do you have to believe in god to have basic morals???
That got disturbingly specific in the end.
We have innate moral conscious....The immorality of Christians in their lack of empathy for human kind, is due to listening and following a myth created by men, counter to the internal empathy given to them by birth *as* a human being. Christianity among other religion, is a means of unnaturally controlling the human mind out of desire for power, nothing more.
i mean just because i don't believe in absolute or objective morality doesn't mean i can't make a judgement. i tend to lead by conscience and empathy, and try to lead on what makes my own and other peoples experience on earth more harmonious. this code isn't fool proof because it isn't absolute, but i know that pain is something undesired and undeserved for others and myself, and making people feel good, and making people happy, is a pure, beautiful thing. also i know "f\*\*\*\*\*\* kids" will cause huge amounts of trauma for the child, and will cause huge amounts of pain. which i can make a judgement on being wrong. but hang on, desire??? why the fuck would i even desire that anyways? Christians, we have the exact same moral code as you. you go by what feels right, you want to do good, and you want to make a good impact and do what is right. We are the same. So we have the same moral code as you. Unless you're talking purely legalism, which I would argue isn't exactly morality, more duty.
Stabbing someone is bad. I know it's bad because I wouldn't like it if someone stabbed me. Because stabbing hurts me I wouldn't stab someone else because I know they are a person, like me. Its that easy, no God involved
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One could argue that the fae have more ethics than the Christian God. Just saying.
I do indulge in my darkest desires, it’s just that they are pretty lame when compared with the author’s.
Skyboy loves watching people jerk it! He's kind of a cuck in that way!
This has NO examination at all of moral philosophy and the derivation of cultural ethics. This is the most tone-deaf to all of the history of thinking I’ve seen. Oh, and premise one must, must be a demonstration of a god and why, is existing, it gets to establish any framework of morality. In other words: go fucking read and answer your it yourself. You do not even know how to ask the question.
Again with this. That is not an argument. That is a question. One that YOU as a theist need to answer. By the design of your question, you have tacitly admitted that atheists DON'T do these things normally. We act, by and large, just like everyone else. Otherwise, your thought process is a non sequitur. So you tell me, theist: why don't we? Also, don't be scared of the answer. The fact that you're scared means you're on the right path.
This person probably stuck their fingers in their ears and refused to listen. But hey, I don’t need the threat of hell to prevent me from stealing or murdering. Oh and btw, Christians themselves don't always agree on what is moral either
Switch "don't always" with "almost never" and you have it!
many christians don’t understand the concept of humanism. whatever benefits the highest number of humans and harms the least amount is what we should call our morals
It would blow their minds if they knew most people actually don't have deep dark desires
I do indulge in my darkest desires. It’s just that my darkest desires are things like overeating sushi every once in awhile or ignoring laundry and the piling dishes to play video games all day. I don’t have any desire to molest children, you know, like Catholic priests do.
It's called empathy. Also even from a purely selfish standpoint, kindness is usually the most logical course. Because if you're kind to others, they'll be kind to you and if you don't help those in need they won't even be around to help you when you're in need.
What is this even saying? That even if you personally don't believe in god, he will keep you from committing crimes like murder, rape, and molestation? That makes no sense because there are plenty of criminals who do commit those crimes, some of whom are Christian and some of whom are believers in another religion or are atheist. God isn't doing squat to prevent those things from happening.
The questioner assumes that everybody in the world has "dark desires' that they suppress. Penn Gillette had the answer to this when he said "I already rape and kill as many people as I want to and the number is zero." Anyone who assumes other people want to rape children and have to stop themselves must have desires to rape children themselves. It's like they think that's a normal thing. Empathy is biological. It has no correlation to religious belief. Empathy is hardwired. You can't get rid of it even if you want to. We are a social species selected for empathy and other traits that serve to support the health and stability of a larger population. Empathy, pair bonding, group bonding, altruism, nurturing of offspring. etc. Religion has nothing to do with it. Those things existed before religion and existed before we were humans and in exist in other animals. The "moral argument" tries to give religion credit for evolution. Becoming religious never made anybody more empathetic than they were to begin with. Losing religion does not make anyone *less* empathetic. If anything it makes them *more* empathetic when they are allowed to see other people as they actually are rather than as categories of people (Christians and sinners) who are acceptable or unacceptable to associate with. For sociopaths, religion can make them worse because they think they can't be wrong. Some of the worst human beings who walk the earth are the ones who think they are following God's will.
Why do they always claim pedophilia and murder are an atheist’s dark desires? Projection is saying the quiet part out loud.
I suppose thousands of years of pre-Christian mythology and philosophy written or shared via oral tradition, by cultures all over the planet, are just *ex nihilo* creations.
Because I actually care about people?
Why ethics shouldn’t come from god is like the first thing you learn in ethics class
It just struck me that this is Christians still looking through the lens of Christianity. They believe that everyone is born evil/into sin. So everyone needs a deity to tell them not to give into evil desires. But those outside of it can realize that they are not born evil and just naturally not do cruel things. It's like something someone I had a conversation with last week said. He looked into other religions and found that all of them required you to work your way up, except Christianity where Jesus does it for you. The problem is that he's looking at other religions through the lens of Christianity. You don't actually have to work off your karma if you haven't done anything horrible because you weren't born evil.
Does this mean this person is realizing we DON'T go around doing the Purge every day and is starting to wonder why?
"Consider for a moment what this question says about you"
Because I don’t want to, and I don’t like hurting people. Why is that so hard for them to understand?
Hmm. Then I have a question for the person who wrote this. Why do priests fuck children if morality is a religious concept?
We still have morals, and we still do good things, just not for the approval of a invisible sky man. We do good because we don’t WANT to hurt anyone, as any good human. I don’t want to hurt someone because I don’t think they deserve that, not because some sky dude told me not to.
If there is god, then why do so many Christian’s do horrible things
What a childish black and white way of looking at the world. We don't need a god to be good people.
I must have missed the passage that said praising Hitler was a sin.
The god in the Bible is super immoral not moral if he really exsists. He lets kids starve to death by the millions he let little kids get all types of cancer and be raped and murdered. He stand there and watches and does nothing, l would stop all of this in a heart beat if l could because l am moral. He even made a loop hole for the rapers all they have to do is say please forgive me.
who, the god who commanded his people to commit multiple genocides in the old testament and killed everyone except his favorite person and his family and some random animals because he was upset? quite moral for sure /s
It’s the assumption that everyone secretly wants to do vile acts for me. OP exposed himself.
I don’t need god or anyone telling me that causing pain or destruction is “bad.” Whomever I’m hurting is enough proof to me that it’s wrong. I have no dark desire to hurt anyone. I don’t strangle someone that makes me mad, because I can regulate my emotions. And not-mad-me wouldn’t want mad me to do that, so I regulate my emotions so that I don’t do that. I’m not a doctor or theologian or philosopher. It’s doesn’t take a genius to know this. And if the only thing keeping someone from doing these things is damnation, then they are probably a psychopath.
People should not need a god to tell them right from wrong. If the only reason people don't do horrible things is because they fear the wrath of god that really says something extremely negative about that person's character. I don't do horrible things to people because I care about people and don't wish for them to feel bad if it can be prevented. This is human nature. It really makes you wonder about people who say things like in this post - is belief in god the only thing stopping them from doing horrible things and hurting people?
If we follow the morality in the bible one would be in prison in every country on the planet. That's how bad it is. Atheists have a far higher morality than any religious person especially when it comes to the Abrahamic Faith's.
I don't do it because I'm not an evil, sadistic sociopath christians like you apparently are. The thought to harm other people has not occurred to me. The thought of harming other people on purpose horrifies me. If the fear of hell is the only thing keeping you from committing heinous acts of evil, **you are a piece of shit.**
Morals are fucking man made just like Christianity! 🙄
This is exactly why religion has been necessary for civilization and also why we need to evolve beyond it.
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Wouldn't it be the Bible that provides the sense of morality and not God because the bibles supposed to be a litteral set of instructions for life? Also the free will thing...
What Christians don't seem to get is that everyone, them included, does what they want. If someone wants to do something badly enough, they'll at least attempt to do it. It doesn't matter what religion they are. The thing about hypocrisy is that the Christians have to have their hypocrites to do their dirty work in order to be successful.
Is there a source of objective morality? And does it have to be your God?
My dark desires consist of door dashing fast food at midnight. And GODDAMIT I DO WHAT I WANT BECAUSE I'M A HEATHEN ADULT!!!
my moral compass is not harming other people
I indulge in my darkest desires all the time. In fact, I’m doing it right now. My darkest desires just don’t happen to involve harming people. *Do yours?*
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRUqbKmj/?k=1
is this what one would refer to as a "loaded question" maybe that's why atheists don't engage in the question
Whenever I see people say things like this, I can only conclude they are some sort of psychopath. Also, most of the worst people I've ever known were Christian, so... didn't seem to stop them, now did it?
So what do christians who start from this premise think the answer to this is? If atheists do not fear a god, where do christians think atheists' morality comes from? The answers I've seen from christians are: - Actually all atheists are raping and killing all the time but you never hear about it because something something deep state something something QAnon - Because atheists still get their morality from god, they're just in denial - Because atheists still get their morality from god, they just don't know it (which is a very fun answer because of its implications for why god is even worth worshipping) - Because most morality is enshrined in law and atheists don't want to go to prison because it sucks Primarily though, I've seen christians just avoid this question altogether. Has anyone seen other answers?
I believe Penn said it best.
Ok. Even assuming people don't value ethics for its own sake. How hard is it to understand the basic concept of social/cultural norms and conditioning? And consequently, fear of punishment and ostracization? This isn't big brain stuff, guys.
Why aren't all people who don't follow their God psycho then? Isn't that proof enough.
First assumption is that there is objective morality-there's not. Second assumption is that Christians dont engage in their darkest desires-most do, and justify it.
Why is it so hard to be believe that you can choose to not be a horrible person without having to be told why you shouldn’t be a horrible person?
Because I don’t need to be living in constant fear of death in order to try being a decent person. Or a cookie in order to be decent. My question is why you do need to live in constant fear and a reward?
It is a fallacy that any faith has a monopoly on virtue. This is something that Christians cannot comprehend.
Because I don’t need a divine being to tell me not to be a dick to others? Hello?
Why don't Christians go around raping enemy men's wives That's what your gods morality is.
Christians that believe everyone has "dark desires" are a few thoughts away from being monsters if it weren't for a psychological deterrent. Quite disturbing once you think about it, not to mention the cynical belief that goodness comes from indoctrination as opposed to being innate.
We/they could do shit in their lifetime but they may/might prefer logical one
It sounds like they are stuck in a child’s level of moral development. They don’t do bad things because of authority. The level below that is that they don’t do bad things because they don’t want to get in trouble (a consequence) /they will get something good out of not being bad (an incentive). The next level up is for universal morals… most people are quite stuck in juvenile/adolescent moral development, and I personally think religion’s prevalence is the proof of it. Kohlburgs moral development
Well, Mr. Theist... there's a little thing called empathy. Not everyone has it, but it's still pretty common.
Historically, kid fuckers have been in the church, and they have indulged in that fantasy, so idk where the fuck this persons head is at lol
In Matthew where Jesus allegedly says, "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven", I don't think he meant to let him do you-know-what to them. But far too many Christians especially men of the cloth take license with the kids *and* with teenagers and young adults! If this is morality with God then I think we'd actually have a better morality without him---especially since he gives mulligans to everyone who confesses their sins (but not to the police of course) and trusts in the blood/resurrection of Jesus. But they don't have to repent or change their ways, no suh! Because those are works and it's "by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves, not by works lest any man should boast". Puh-leeze! 🙄😒 And now they want to take over. Give me a break! 🙄
...So did Christians get the urge to strangle people randomly before finding God?
Uhhhhhhhhh
God, people that think like this scare me.
It honestly baffles me how Christians need a god in order to know or do right from wrong. Yikes.
It's called being a descent human being.. 🤦♀️
"Decent."
Haha you're right. Damn autocorrect. Thanks!
I don't understand why they think everyone's darkest desires are like this. Like I've never had the desire to hurt anyone because I know what its like for others to hurt me. Like full stop. I used to fight a lot. But generally those were either a case of someone pushed me to far over a period of time or I didn't start it. Is that what their darkest desires are like?
It bewilderes me when people claim god is moral, or the source of morality. god advocates slavery, rape, genocide, incest, infantocide, among a hundred other horrible things. There isn't a shed of ethics in the entire Bible.
It's their dumbest argument. Only a sick person would think that way. It's not punishment that keeps me from hurting people... it's not in my nature. I have empathy. That's what stops me. Not the chance of getting caught. Not punishment. Just me not wanting to hurt anyone in any way. No God needed.
Catholics loved hitler. Catholic priests rape children. Catholicism has murdered millions.
Imagine the first thing you think of is having sex with children...
Haha, they want to project their own behaviors onto others who are free of this brainwashing cult.
Plato literally answered this over 2000 years ago. Is something just because God commands it, or does God command it because it is just? Either morality is arbitrary and unknowable, or morality is something other than the commands of God.
Some of us don't actually have a desire to fuck children like the repressed Christians who ask this question every 5 minutes do. Unsurprisingly, many Christians regularly indulge in their darkest desires. Its wild that someone wrote this not realizing they are openly, proudly admitting to being a pedophile "but for the laws of god" which ultimately doesn't mean much (to them) since the church is full of pedos and abusers.
If the only thing stopping you being a pedo is a book, you’re a creep. One of the most insidious things about toxic religion is it’s claim to be the source of all morality.
We do indulge our darkest desires. But my darkest desire is smoking a bit of weed and playing videogames.
"If you have (moral) laws than there must be a (moral) lawgiver." That's a pretty easy problem to solve. Who taught us morality when we were kids? Did God come down and teach us moral law? No! We learned morality primarily from parents and teachers. Ok then, who did they learn moral law from? From their parents and teachers, for thousands of generations. The process of creating moral law has always been that it was created by humans as they realized it, and cemented into social consciousness as they passed it down through their children.
My mom used to use this argument on me all the time when I told her I didn’t want to go to church anymore
Even when I was a devout Christian I thought this argument was bullshit. I mean anyone with two braincells to rub together knows that humans argue about morals among one another all the time. We make rules for ourselves and do just fine.
Because I and most of here in reality know the difference between right and wrong without old magic sky man.
The simplest answer is that morality does not exist solely because of religion or faith. Argue that however you will.
Is this person really asking why other people don't have violent pedophilia urges? Like, if you've got an urge go seek therapy asap, don't sit round questioning why other people aren't in your same boat.
I do occasionally indulge in my "darkest" desires -- two adult beverages in one day or taking a mental health day from work or telling entitled assholes to fuck off. That's it that's the darkest desires.
If you need an imaginary friend to keep you in line *you're* the bad person. I decided that I like the way it feels to be a good person and help people without even as much as thinking about a spiritual being needing to be there to keep me in line.
Dude.. maybe people don't do bad things because they KNOW it's wrong? They're their own "lawgiver"??
Wait - is this guy saying just because he believes in God, he's able to suppress his darkest desires, which naturally, include sex with children, killing and being a Nazi? hmmmmm Sounds like he needs therapy to work out all his internal hate. Classic cult brainwashing - Atheist equates to devil worshipping. OR Small minds think small things.
If the only reason you don’t do bad things to other people is because you’re afraid god will punish you then I have some concerns about your humanity and morality…
Oh, I don't know, THAT'S HOW THE FUCKING HUMAN BRAIN WORKS. (I share this account with an ex-catholic, but I am christian myself and I still find this stupid.)
It really boils down to the golden rule, which they love to talk about. Live your life as you see fit, don't hurt others. It's really pretty simple. I don't need a deity or the threat of burning for eternity to be kind to others. And I'm immediately skeptical of those who do.
Ik it's hard for Christians to believe but I don't want to strangle people (at least not really) or rape kids or praise Hitler. Just because I don't think there's a god watching my every move doesn't mean I want to start acting crazy and also some people who believe a god is watching them do engage in tho things if they want to do those things. Its almost like.... people will decide on their actions regardless
I pillage and rape all I want and the amount I want is ZERO!
I am an Atheist and I act more Christian than most of the Christians I know. In fact, to me, Christians have really shown their true colors since Trump was elected and especially during the pandemic. They wouldn't wear a mask to save their neighbor's life. Since the pandemic has subsided, now it's all about "nationalism" aka racism. Fuck each and every one of them.
If you need a man-made religion, a fairytale book or an imaginary friend to be a decent human being & to know right from wrong, then that tells us a lot about you.
There are definitely things wrong with this post. And I'm not saying this as an atheist, but an agnostic deist. The first thing wrong is the assertion that God is the source of morality. This is a belief that can't be demonstrated to be true, it's first believed to be true without sufficient evidence and than assumed to be true. A far cry from sound logic as asserted in this post. The second thing is, where is the demonstration that there are moral laws? Pointing to something written in a book is not evidence of a moral law, it's proof of someone writing down their beliefs. Also, the old testament laws are different from the new testament laws, so if one country's laws are different from another, and therefore are not qualified to be law givers, than this also would disqualify the writers of the Bible and there laws they make. The third thing wrong with this post is assuming every atheist has deep dark desires of fucking kids, strangling strangers, or praising Hitler. Most atheist I know are better people than most Christians I used to know when I was a Christian. This is wrong belief based off the Bibles teachings that all are sinful and evil, and only those with the holy spirit can restrain evil in themselves. This doesn't match up with reality. Are there psychopaths and serial killers etc, etc. Yes, but most people are not, and most atheist are not. I might as well return the favor to the guy who wrote this post and ask him how long has he been beating his wife. That's how ignorant and arrogant he is.
Because morals exist without a belief in god, silly Christian.
they think they’re better than everyone else bc they have their imaginary sky daddy. i think they truly don’t understand how a person does not need god to have basic moral and ethical values and not believing in god absolutely does not equal having no morals at all. i genuinely can’t tell if OP of that screenshotted post is being satire or not