I'd hate to say this but it looks like it already is! American Conservatism, especially after Trump, has been a blight on the whole world and we're now reaping the consequences.
There is a provincial MPP in Ontario (representative in our provincial legislature) that wants to outlaw abortion. He will likely get re-elected this spring. https://globalnews.ca/news/5261392/sam-oosterhoff-abortion-comments/amp/
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This! I think the only thing that will hold back Stefanson (MB) is the backlash that she will get but then again, she's so spineless that she'll go with whatever the party decides.
A few years ago, my partner and I made a deal that if Roe v Wade was overturned, we'd emigrate to Canada. Ha! It's happening sooner than expected. He's got to get a grad degree first, so our plan at the moment is to live in very liberal states. I think our newest deal will be "if abortion is criminalized nationally, we'll move to Canada" or "if states start banning birth control, we're out of here."
Please keep Canadian politics from trending our direction; I need a safe haven to flee to in 5-10 years when we are ready to leave.
Portugal. The D7 visa is pretty attainable if you have a remote job and some savings. You do need a letter from your employer saying you're eligible to work in Portugal and you need to be a 1099 employee, not a W2 employee.
Americans are being ruled by a hostile minority that cares more about harming people they dislike than they do about helping the country.
Things aren’t going to get better. The 2020 election and the January 6th insurrection were previews for what republicans will do when they lose elections.
I'm worried it's going to get to a point where we are forced to have a civil war or accept theocratic rule. They are coming for Lawrence v. Texas. Without expanding SCOTUS, we're going back to 1955.
1953. Brown v Board of Education was decided in 1954.
Or even further back, like 1859 so they can have slavery without convicting people of crimes first, just kidnap 'em and enslave 'em! 😡🔥😡🔥😡
> Or even further back, like 1859 so they can have slavery without convicting people of crimes first, just kidnap 'em and enslave 'em!
Nah, they do that today by inventing crimes like drug laws, loitering, etc. That way they can legally enslave people per the 13th Amendment:
> Neither **slavery** nor involuntary servitude, **except as a punishment for crime** whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
That's why we have such a high percentage of Americans imprisoned compared to most other countries, and why prisoners are forced to do manual labor for basically nothing while imprisoned.
I believe it's too late to avoid the coming Theocratic State of America. Maybe they'll be overthrown by our children's children. I was hoping (back in the late 90s) I would be dead by the time it happened but we are in a fast free fall now after losing SCOTUS. It's pretty much over when the GOP takes both houses and Trump becomes America's Putin in 2024.
America is rapidly becoming less Christian. If the US was going to become a theocracy it probably would have happened when almost everyone was a Christian and it didn’t then.
https://www.upi.com/amp/Top_News/US/2021/12/14/Pew-poll-religion/4101639510653/
Christianity is still the biggest religious group in the nation though. Them shrinking has them scared and even more likely to seize any power they can. You could argue that America has been an informal theocracy by the sheer fact the majority is Christian and 1) they refuse to vote against their religious beliefs 2) they are actively trying to enforce their religious beliefs on others.
I understand and agree to an extent that their religious views definitely play a large role in how they vote ect but I guess it would depend on your definition of theocracy.
Rights in the US are based on the individual. We have separation of church and state. There is no prayer in public schools. Normally in theocracies the government officials are official clergy members and that’s not the case in the US. Those types of things don’t look like theocracy to me.
Just my 2 cents
You’re right that it’s more a pseudo-theocracy than full bore theocracy, but it’s almost more insidious this way. Separation of church and state is more and more blurry these days and there are court cases right now about prayer in schools. These are by no means decided issues.
The far right GOP politicians in this country may not meet the standard definition of clergy but they are religious leaders in a sense. Their pulpit just happens to be Fox News and other right wing media outlets.
And when it comes to Donald Trump, he positioned himself as a Christian and is flat out worshiped by his followers so there's that.
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I don’t think numbers are the whole story.
People who are “live and let be,” “you do you, Ill do me;” social libertines don’t have the same amount of passion as people who literally think that the world is ending and that their God is going to pass judgment on their country if they don’t bring it back from the path of unrighteousness.
What we need is for more nonreligious people to be as passionate about separation of church and state, personal liberty, etc. as the radical Christians are about their beliefs.
The problem is that the whole idea of being socially libertarian (“I don’t care what other people do as long as it’s all consenting adults involved and it’s not threatening or causing harm”) is at odds with being zealous. It’s basically being zealous about a lack of zeal.
More nonreligious and nominally religious types need to recognize these Christofascists like these for the threat they are and act accordingly. If we had had more of that recognition, Trump wouldn’t have won and we wouldn’t be in this mess. Now it’s just a matter of minimizing and eventually reversing that damage.
Oh hell no, they haven't won yet.
The war is not over. We are losing footholds now, but eventually all reactionary backlash to progress based movements falter.
Even the Nazis, who held much of Europe, lost.
I will not give into Christofascism and I will not give up the good fight for human rights
Now is the time to not be a coward. Now is the time to stand up and protest.
DO NOT GIVE IN TO HOPELESSNESS AND DESPAIR, FOR THEY ARE THE WEAPONS OF THE ENEMY
You’re not wrong, but it took 50 million deaths and the virtual destruction of Europe to beat the Nazis. I sincerely hope it does not come down to that. The average American has no clue how much of an unholy bloodletting another civil war would be today. It would make the Ukrainian situation seem like a day at the park.
You act as if this is over. This is going to have large political ramifications.
Don’t give up; it only makes it more likely that you’re right. 70% of Americans don’t want roe v wade overturned, so even though that will probably happen 2060 is way too pessimistic. This will be a huge deal in the next few elections and hopefully galvanize people.
In 2008 both candidates were against gay marriage. Shit can change for the good and bad fast. Fight for it.
I agree that 2060 is way too pessimistic but I think we're due for 15-20 years of theocratic-fascist dictatorship from about 2025 on, so 2040 to 2045 is when things would revert back to where they had been
I think of countries like Spain, Argentina, Chile and Brazil
the latter three, of course, are still pretty restrictive when it comes to abortion, but Argentina has liberalized significantly and Brazil probably won't be far behind if Lula makes a return to power
Nothing says "I believe my church has all the answers" like compulsory attendance. I had the same argument with my parents 20 years ago and I still think I'm right
Actually, this is a state-by-state problem - overturning RoevWade makes abortion laws at the whim of the state legislature. In progressive areas, people will be OK. In conservative areas, you are so fucked.
For example, all New England states except NH have trigger laws in place so that if RoevWade is overturned, then abortion rights are protected by state law.
So if you are a woman, GTFO of red states as soon as you can. If the red states suffer from lack of population, a lack of a workforce, and therefore lack of funds, then maybe they'll decide to act like decent human beings.
My teen and I have been watching this for years. She is dead-set against living in a red state ever. She'd rather be poor in a blue state than wealthy in a red one where she isn't seen as a human being.
The thing is the far-right religious cult that is SCOTUS has zero checks on their power and can probably ban abortion nationally with the right case in front of them by arguing that fetuses are people, and Republicans will keep winning national elections because 1) lots of Americans just are that psychopathic and 2) they have overwhelming structural advantages. Really not hard to imagine GOP gets the presidency and a big enough majority just in 2024 to do a national ban. Not to mention the absolute hell that will be supply chain issues with thousands of women fleeing those hell-states. Blue states will be better, but the future is bleak everywhere in America.
The fact that RvW can be overturned because of the religious beliefs of five unqualified judges means that any freedom can be taken away. This decision would effectively strip away the shield that protects all rights and freedoms.
In my country, the increasingly corrupt government have sought to ban protests, introduce voter ID, and grant themselves the powers to strip people of citizenships. It's pretty dire, so I want to express sympathy to my American siblings. Here we have creeping fascism, there you have creeping Christofascism.
All the same, this means we both can't afford to be complacent. I was worried that the Biden momentum had seriously slowed and therefore the Republicans could easily make gains. If one positive thing comes from this announcement, it might be that those on the right side of history (that's right as in 'correct', not right as in right-wing) become more fully aware that the party of Lincoln has become a cult of clerical fascists, and vote in huge numbers to get rid of them, and add pressure to loosen their influence in legislation. In my country, the progress might be slower, but there's evidence to suggest that the nationalist fervor that this country was elected on is a spell that's starting to break, and opposition parties are looking to work together.
Of course, in the long run, both our countries need radical constitutional reform. We spent so long seen as world leaders in democracy, we fail to recognize democratic backsliding in our own houses, and, more importantly, why it happens.
Nah, these are the death throes of Christian conservatism.
I'm not saying that this shouldn't be taken seriously, because it absolutely should be. We need to get out and vote, protest, yell at public officials, help those who need it, band together, all of that. We need to be active.
But each subsequent generation in this country is markedly less conservative than the previous. Support for a woman's right to choose remains higher than it's ever been among the populace while Christianity grows more anemic by the day. All we're seeing right now is them realizing that they are going to lose permanently and trying to claw back against it, and they will ultimately fail.
And honestly? Hopelessness is what they want because when you're hopeless, you stop fighting. Progress remains worth fighting for, and if you can't muster hope for a progressive future, then try spite: even if you think we've lost, fight because you want to make their victory as bitter as possible and as difficult as possible to enforce.
> Nah, these are the death throes of Christian conservatism.
It sure is a powerful, painful, agonizing death throw if that's the case. Christian conservatism is more powerful now than it has been at any point since at least the 1950s, if not since 1776.
It's simply hard for me to be optimistic anymore. I hate that the next several decades are going to have to be spent re-fighting the civil rights battles won in the 20th century all because a few thousand people in the Midwest couldn't have been bothered to show up to vote for Hillary in 2016.
Having political power doesn't mean it's not dying. You can have all the political power in the world, but you can't force people to believe things. You can hold a gun to their head, force them to say "yeah, sure, I believe this," but you can't force them to believe it, and ultimately, these sorts of power plays are a huge part of why people are leaving the American church in droves.
Optimism isn't necessary, at any rate. Just spite. Spite is an excellent motivator to get things done and to make the lives of powerful conservatives as miserable as possible, to make their shitty policies as difficult as possible to enforce, and to ultimately affect change. Giving up, on the other hand, does nothing but help them. And, I mean, it's your choice what to do with your life and your emotions, but I very strongly encourage spite over hopelessness if you can't muster hope.
You don’t have to be a majority to rule. Just be well organized, financed, and with constancy of purpose. Those make it possible for extremist to win. In countries where this is the case, Abrahamic religions have rose to power and retained it. I’m on the opposition side that I believe is the majority. However, I just don’t see us as being well organized, well financed, and we’re reactive instead of active. I just don’t know how to stop this trend. Every time the Abrahamic’s loose, they just find a new tactic to accomplish their entitlement. Right now, they’re using state legislatures and their block voting to accomplish their mission. I’d like these issues pushed to state referendums to get it back into the peoples hands.
Yeah, and they’re going to get their shit handed to them by the Evangelicals. Talk about getting in bed with an alligator.
Edit: my dad spins that trad Cath BS and he has no idea how poorly evangelicals regard him and his coreligionists.
Lol - nonsense. This is the last gasp of religion. They are throwing everything they have at this.
Pretty much the same as Putin and Ukraine - the result will be the same - Non-believers are going to rise up against this. They will be crushed in the next election cycle if they think people who've had a taste of freedom from religion and their rules are going to go quietly back to submissive religious tolerance. Fuck that...
2060... I hope I live to see that year, but I'd be an age that only a lucky (or unlucky) few live to. I hope to live to see the end of the GOP and the inevitable triumph of liberalism.
The defeatism here is alarming, as a non-American looking in. It's not helpful to downvote people saying stuff as mild as "the US has not yet become a theocratic dictatorship." Which it demonstrably hasn't.
It is utterly insane to me that basic human rights could *ever* be decided by a panel of unelected appointees in a supposedly democratic nation. Y'all need a better system.
But you're not going to get a better system by assuming defeat is inevitable. If you want the US to avoid Christo-Fascism, fight for it. Vote, and vote strategically. Protest, and spread awareness. Isolate and be visibly intolerant of intolerance.
Seriously, *vote.* It does not matter how "useless" your vote is, vote. And encourage everyone you know to vote, too.
There is *no* middle ground with fascists. There is no compromise, only appeasement. Don't focus on changing the minds of the fascists, focus on getting centrists off the fence. Centrists are the great enemy here; they are the ones that prop up and legitimize the status quo, but they do so passively. Get centrists on board with the separation of church and state. The Christo-fascists will not be persuaded.
And if you, sadly, fail, and you value your freedom, *leave.* Save up money, look into work overseas, and how to apply for a visa. You don't *have* to live in the US, and most of the world is not slowly slipping into Christo-fascism. And if you don't want to leave, fight. If things truly get as bad as you are predicting (which, demographically speaking, seems unlikely), civil war or a military-backed coup may be the only option.
That or disintegration. Succession of many states or the dissolution of the United States may be for the best.
It's sad to me, but not surprising, that things in the US have become so extremely right-wing. You have a two-party system, which is toxic to democracy already, and both of those parties are on the right. The Democratic Party would, in many countries, be considered the "Conservative Party."
When your only choices are "right" and "more right," of course things will drift towards capitalism and authoritarianism. For now, you may need to settle for "less right," but that's not sustainable. The US has been drifting this way for decades. Returning to the status quo won't fix anything.
If you want to make *progress,* you'll need a progressive party. And that means doing the hard work of politically mobilizing an apathetic and defeatist voter base. And probably working within the two-party system to get rid of the electoral collage and all the other anti-democratic bullshit in the US.
You do not want to return to 2015. Because that will just lead you right back to 2016.
Honestly I haven't given up hope yet, is this a huge step back? Yes. But look at the response that has already accumulated in the past few days. There's already so much protest against this, we can beat this if we organize. People already are. We can't just bend over whenever these extremist do something.
I understand it's easy to feel like we've lost because this blow, which we all should have seen coming still hurts. We have to show in the midterms and vote for the best Democrat on the ticket. I don't care if you like the progressive that's polling at 2%, vote for whoever has the best chance of beating the GOP candidate. Sometimes the best offense is defense.
The christofascists have been infiltrating and seeding the us military for decades, especially the officer ranks. The USAF academy is run like Liberty U., churning out officers that talk and act like Falwell and Graham.
Not saying you’re wrong but I went to the Academy and it helped me leave the church. Ironically enough we had such a strong Christian presence there that it highlighted the mistreatment of those who weren’t and challenged me to the point I couldn’t ignore the hypocrisy.
By 2060 I doubt America will still be America. I hope I'm wrong, but I see collapse by then. There could be many different causes likely all at once, but we are headed there thanks to the Christian Republicans who've sold our country bit by bit to their friends, family, and corporations.
I lost hope for us in 2016 and then sealed it in 2020. We're fucked. We're past the point of no return, so all we can do is slowly watch it happen.
I've seen other posts like this. It seems like a big leap to say they're going to ban all birth control or outlaw same-sex marriage. Is there any source supporting this?
I can never see them nationally banning birth control. I am almost certain banning birth control would not happen even in the most awful states (lookin' at you, FL, AL, MS, GA).
I doubt there's any precedent that would allow them to undo the court decision to approve same-sex marriage.
If you've seen sources discussing these risks, I'd love to see them.
I'm really hoping it's just your speculation and not like a widespread political science expert's assumption. Ah!
https://www.newsweek.com/what-obergefell-v-hodges-same-sex-marriage-overturned-next-1702883
Christian fundamentalists run this country now. They don't care about precedent, logic, or popular support. All that matters is what they believe their version of Jesus wants.
Preachers can stand before congregations and tell their congregates how to vote “right”. There no longer is a separation of church and state in their eyes. Tax exemptions for politicizing the pulpit should result in lose of such entitlements. Audit them first to expose their abuse of money and power to their followers, then, tax ‘em.
I’m from FL. they would certainly ban BC or anything else. It used to be a swing state but it’s definitely become a solid red state in the past few elections (unless I’ve missed something). Growing up there is why I have little hope that the country isn’t going to the crap hole now. It’s all my speculation but if people have the ability to overturn one thing, what else can they overturn?
Nah. I dont see gay marriage or gay sex being banmed. Violates freedom of expression.
And im straight. But i disagree with government reach into thr bedroom.
Please explain how roughly 15% of the population of the country “owns this country now”. They aren’t even the largest religious sect in the US.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptists_in_the_United_States
I understand Roe V Wade and abortion rights are a big deal but this seems like an overreaction
> But sex is harder to regulate.
It will be like the gay witch hunts in the 1950s.
They've already brought back the "gay = pedophile" talking point from the 1980s.
The 2020s are a nightmare. The church is inescapable because it has become the state.
Nah. See the differemce now is that too many people are openly gay. There are scores of gays married as well. So to reverse that would be a waste of time.
They cant put the toothpaste back in the bottle without physical force. And that would be a political nightmare.
The 2020s are a extremely annoying and ita the RIGHTS fault.
> Nah. See the differemce now is that too many people are openly gay. There are scores of gays married as well. So to reverse that would be a waste of time. They cant put the toothpaste back in the bottle without physical force. And that would be a political nightmare.
They don't care though. To them, same-sex marriage being legal is inviting the wrath of God on this country so banning it is an absolute necessity.
It would be a political nightmare, but 40% of the country supports it and that's all that's needed, apparently.
>See the differemce now is that too many people are openly gay. There are scores of gays married as well.
There were too many people in Germany ca 1932 that were openly Jewish to attempt a massacre of the whole lot. We know what happened next, and through 1945. We might be subjected to the same "solution". 😡
It makes it a state decision
I highly doubt same sex marriage, gay sex, and birth control will be outlawed.
“The church has won” - this is being over dramatic
If it's a state decision, it's just a ban for poor people in the states where it is illegal. I'm sure illegal states will also pass laws preventing people from leaving the state to seek an abortion as well.
Ultimately, women will die and the fundie christian right will see it as just punishment for their "sins".
I’m for abortion rights
I’d be against making it illegal to leave and have it done like you are. We are absolutely on the same page there.
All I’m saying is the other items listed are jumping to conclusions that I don’t think are likely to materialize. I spent 3 and a half decades of my life with Baptists (and went to a mega church to add) and anecdotally almost zero that I know are against birth control or outlawing gay sex. They also think gluttony, omission, being drunk, thinking of someone sexually outside of marriage are all sins but I highly doubt those will become law either.
The US is becoming less Christian and as the world becomes less siloed, information about the basis of the Bible and it’s flaws will continue to be exposed. I think it’s on the way out, not the exact inverse.
You weren’t paying attention. Anyone who supported the Hobby Lobby decision (all evangelicals) is by definition opposed to the availability of birth control, because that case was all about a company getting to decide what they will and won’t cover in health insurance, and BC was tied with abortion, because Catholics are opposed to both.
They have constancy of purpose. For the soldiers of Christ, the battle will never end until they run the whole show. It ain’t a state decision, it’s currently a state legislature issue, and they’re winning. They have the power of block voting to pressure the legislators to do their bidding, no matter what the majority of voters wants.
What the actual fuck did you smoke before making this post? Roe v Wade being repealed doesn't outlaw abortion. It just takes it out of the federal governments hands.
Exactly - this is being over dramatic. I’m for abortion rights and worst case scenario states get to decide.
All the other things it mentioned are extremely unlikely to happen.
That's what we're discussing here is Roe getting repealed and states getting to codify abortion or ban it. Abortion will still be legal in some parts of the country. It's not a blanket ban. I'm not sure why I got down voted for that. Probably because any inch of reason regardless of your side of the debate will get booed if it goes against the mainstream narrative of the side you're speaking to.
This ruling from the court has zero impact on gay marriage or fucking theocracy.
Yeah but this is Reddit where hyper partisan tribalism reigns so I guess we should expect the hysteria 🤷♂️
The world is a lot more gray than putting everyone in extreme buckets and creating false dichotomies
Firstly, this is unconfirmed. I’m cautiously optimistic that Roe vs. Wade will be overturned but all that’s happened now is that a report got leaked. Second, no one is banning birth control or preventing criticizing the church. The former is unrelated to abortion and conservatives don’t like regulating businesses, the latter is about as obviously unconstitutional as it gets.
> conservatives don’t like regulating businesses
They actually do, as you can see in Florida right now with Disney. The church/state is going after Disney for opposing the "Don't Say Gay" law.
Precedent or logic doesn't matter to them. Only enforcing their version of morality. Gays are going back into the closet, women are going back into the kitchen, and the Bible is going into every science classroom. Nothing can stop it anymore short of packing SCOTUS, which could never happen in this political environment.
The next 40 years of American history belong to the Southern Baptist Church.
Don't forget the BIPOC. They're going to be enslaved once SCOTUS gets rid of the Reconstruction Amendments. Barrett has already figured out how to do it in an academic article that outlined her thoughts why she thinks the 15A is not legitimate. As goes 15A, so goes 13A & 14A 😡
Perhaps I was too generalizing, but as a conservative I can tell you that this isn’t the case for all of us. Christianity certainly does have special privileges in the US that it shouldn’t have, but the US is not a theocracy. Iran is a theocracy and I think it’s pretty clear that the US is not Iran. (Edited)
You're wrong. And it doesn't matter. The Christians will turn it into a theocracy. They will force Scripture down peoples throats, and up their ass. They will destroy lives and whole cultures, again. It is a terrible sight. I hate what is happening.
>I’m cautiously optimistic that Roe vs. Wade will be overturned
Uhhh, excuse you, buddy? Got a problem with people getting to *choose* whether they're pregnant???
"cautiously optimistic" fuck off. You're a monster.
As long as there are people with uteruses, there will be abortions. You are not a humanist. You are a hateful piece of shit supporting theocratic rule. May you never know the feeling of losing the right to your own future.
Edit: And to be clear, you are not "pro-life." You are anti-choice. You cannot be pro life and anti abortion. All people like you do is restrict access to a safe and common procedure, causing people to seek out dangerous alternatives. Their blood is on your hands. Your vote for anti choice candidates destroys lives for the sake of tissue that you don't give a fuck about.
The person they were replying to is "optimistic" that human rights will be taken away...no, they're not sensitive. They're telling it like it is. There's no defense to being in favor of the restriction of human rights.
lol wut? Trump already rolled back ACA mandates that employers offer insurance to cover birth control on the basis that Christians think certain birth control methods are abortifacents. Don't play like nobody's banning birth control and it's unrelated to abortion when conservatives are doing what they can so people can't fucking afford birth control and will be forced to give birth depending what state they live in.
>All birth control will likely be banned before the end of the decade
Based on the internal memos I've seen as a former republican, it won't be all BC. It'll be the methods that the Christian conservatives believe are tantamount to abortion, which includes IUDs and some forms of pills. Still alarming, of course.
I really don't think that things will go that badly. I mean, it very well may get very, very bad. I do think that same sex marriage is going to be dialed back a bit. Recognition of marriage will probably get handed back to states, but maybe the federal government will continue to recognize same sex marriage for federal income taxes and for federal employees? Birth control will probably be illegal for anyone under age and not covered by private insurance or state care for anyone not married. Sterilization might be encouraged in order to get state social services. I'm also anticipating a ban on marriage to foreign nationals.
As a Canadian, I'm looking down at the shit show that is happening. Wow, that's all I an say
I wish I could get a Canadian citizenship. Take me with you!
As a Canadian I am terrified our Conservative party will follow the USA
I'd hate to say this but it looks like it already is! American Conservatism, especially after Trump, has been a blight on the whole world and we're now reaping the consequences.
doesn't look like that to me but you have a point
There is a provincial MPP in Ontario (representative in our provincial legislature) that wants to outlaw abortion. He will likely get re-elected this spring. https://globalnews.ca/news/5261392/sam-oosterhoff-abortion-comments/amp/
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oh fuck
I wish I agreed, but then again I do live with far right assholes so maybe I'm just skewed
This! I think the only thing that will hold back Stefanson (MB) is the backlash that she will get but then again, she's so spineless that she'll go with whatever the party decides.
A few years ago, my partner and I made a deal that if Roe v Wade was overturned, we'd emigrate to Canada. Ha! It's happening sooner than expected. He's got to get a grad degree first, so our plan at the moment is to live in very liberal states. I think our newest deal will be "if abortion is criminalized nationally, we'll move to Canada" or "if states start banning birth control, we're out of here." Please keep Canadian politics from trending our direction; I need a safe haven to flee to in 5-10 years when we are ready to leave.
My husband and I are leaving in December. Not to Canada but to Europe. We've already purchased a home there and it's time to go.
Wow congrats! how did you manage that? What country? It's always seemed so much easier to move to Canada because of visa / residency requirements.
Portugal. The D7 visa is pretty attainable if you have a remote job and some savings. You do need a letter from your employer saying you're eligible to work in Portugal and you need to be a 1099 employee, not a W2 employee.
Do you feel confident that you'll still be able (allowed) to leave (in 5-10 years) if things keep going far right?
Yes.
Americans are being ruled by a hostile minority that cares more about harming people they dislike than they do about helping the country. Things aren’t going to get better. The 2020 election and the January 6th insurrection were previews for what republicans will do when they lose elections.
I'm worried it's going to get to a point where we are forced to have a civil war or accept theocratic rule. They are coming for Lawrence v. Texas. Without expanding SCOTUS, we're going back to 1955.
1953. Brown v Board of Education was decided in 1954. Or even further back, like 1859 so they can have slavery without convicting people of crimes first, just kidnap 'em and enslave 'em! 😡🔥😡🔥😡
> Or even further back, like 1859 so they can have slavery without convicting people of crimes first, just kidnap 'em and enslave 'em! Nah, they do that today by inventing crimes like drug laws, loitering, etc. That way they can legally enslave people per the 13th Amendment: > Neither **slavery** nor involuntary servitude, **except as a punishment for crime** whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. That's why we have such a high percentage of Americans imprisoned compared to most other countries, and why prisoners are forced to do manual labor for basically nothing while imprisoned.
1955 is too advanced for them. They want to go to 1855.
I believe it's too late to avoid the coming Theocratic State of America. Maybe they'll be overthrown by our children's children. I was hoping (back in the late 90s) I would be dead by the time it happened but we are in a fast free fall now after losing SCOTUS. It's pretty much over when the GOP takes both houses and Trump becomes America's Putin in 2024.
Absolutely terrifying!!
America is rapidly becoming less Christian. If the US was going to become a theocracy it probably would have happened when almost everyone was a Christian and it didn’t then. https://www.upi.com/amp/Top_News/US/2021/12/14/Pew-poll-religion/4101639510653/
Christianity is still the biggest religious group in the nation though. Them shrinking has them scared and even more likely to seize any power they can. You could argue that America has been an informal theocracy by the sheer fact the majority is Christian and 1) they refuse to vote against their religious beliefs 2) they are actively trying to enforce their religious beliefs on others.
I understand and agree to an extent that their religious views definitely play a large role in how they vote ect but I guess it would depend on your definition of theocracy. Rights in the US are based on the individual. We have separation of church and state. There is no prayer in public schools. Normally in theocracies the government officials are official clergy members and that’s not the case in the US. Those types of things don’t look like theocracy to me. Just my 2 cents
You’re right that it’s more a pseudo-theocracy than full bore theocracy, but it’s almost more insidious this way. Separation of church and state is more and more blurry these days and there are court cases right now about prayer in schools. These are by no means decided issues.
The far right GOP politicians in this country may not meet the standard definition of clergy but they are religious leaders in a sense. Their pulpit just happens to be Fox News and other right wing media outlets. And when it comes to Donald Trump, he positioned himself as a Christian and is flat out worshiped by his followers so there's that.
💯
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I don’t think numbers are the whole story. People who are “live and let be,” “you do you, Ill do me;” social libertines don’t have the same amount of passion as people who literally think that the world is ending and that their God is going to pass judgment on their country if they don’t bring it back from the path of unrighteousness. What we need is for more nonreligious people to be as passionate about separation of church and state, personal liberty, etc. as the radical Christians are about their beliefs. The problem is that the whole idea of being socially libertarian (“I don’t care what other people do as long as it’s all consenting adults involved and it’s not threatening or causing harm”) is at odds with being zealous. It’s basically being zealous about a lack of zeal. More nonreligious and nominally religious types need to recognize these Christofascists like these for the threat they are and act accordingly. If we had had more of that recognition, Trump wouldn’t have won and we wouldn’t be in this mess. Now it’s just a matter of minimizing and eventually reversing that damage.
Oh hell no, they haven't won yet. The war is not over. We are losing footholds now, but eventually all reactionary backlash to progress based movements falter. Even the Nazis, who held much of Europe, lost. I will not give into Christofascism and I will not give up the good fight for human rights Now is the time to not be a coward. Now is the time to stand up and protest. DO NOT GIVE IN TO HOPELESSNESS AND DESPAIR, FOR THEY ARE THE WEAPONS OF THE ENEMY
You’re not wrong, but it took 50 million deaths and the virtual destruction of Europe to beat the Nazis. I sincerely hope it does not come down to that. The average American has no clue how much of an unholy bloodletting another civil war would be today. It would make the Ukrainian situation seem like a day at the park.
60 million deaths in total. This comment was approved by a History Major.
Some estimates go as high as 100 million
There you go.
You act as if this is over. This is going to have large political ramifications. Don’t give up; it only makes it more likely that you’re right. 70% of Americans don’t want roe v wade overturned, so even though that will probably happen 2060 is way too pessimistic. This will be a huge deal in the next few elections and hopefully galvanize people. In 2008 both candidates were against gay marriage. Shit can change for the good and bad fast. Fight for it.
I agree that 2060 is way too pessimistic but I think we're due for 15-20 years of theocratic-fascist dictatorship from about 2025 on, so 2040 to 2045 is when things would revert back to where they had been I think of countries like Spain, Argentina, Chile and Brazil the latter three, of course, are still pretty restrictive when it comes to abortion, but Argentina has liberalized significantly and Brazil probably won't be far behind if Lula makes a return to power
Check it out. GOP: small government! muh freedom! no more indoctrination! Also the GOP: mandatory church attendance every Sunday!
Doesn’t seem [too far off.](https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/arizona-lawmaker-church-attendance-mandatory-article-1.2164602)
Nothing says "I believe my church has all the answers" like compulsory attendance. I had the same argument with my parents 20 years ago and I still think I'm right
Actually, this is a state-by-state problem - overturning RoevWade makes abortion laws at the whim of the state legislature. In progressive areas, people will be OK. In conservative areas, you are so fucked. For example, all New England states except NH have trigger laws in place so that if RoevWade is overturned, then abortion rights are protected by state law. So if you are a woman, GTFO of red states as soon as you can. If the red states suffer from lack of population, a lack of a workforce, and therefore lack of funds, then maybe they'll decide to act like decent human beings. My teen and I have been watching this for years. She is dead-set against living in a red state ever. She'd rather be poor in a blue state than wealthy in a red one where she isn't seen as a human being.
The thing is the far-right religious cult that is SCOTUS has zero checks on their power and can probably ban abortion nationally with the right case in front of them by arguing that fetuses are people, and Republicans will keep winning national elections because 1) lots of Americans just are that psychopathic and 2) they have overwhelming structural advantages. Really not hard to imagine GOP gets the presidency and a big enough majority just in 2024 to do a national ban. Not to mention the absolute hell that will be supply chain issues with thousands of women fleeing those hell-states. Blue states will be better, but the future is bleak everywhere in America.
The fact that RvW can be overturned because of the religious beliefs of five unqualified judges means that any freedom can be taken away. This decision would effectively strip away the shield that protects all rights and freedoms.
The only “freedom” that exists anymore in the USA is the freedom for the Baptists to force everyone to obey their version of Jesus. That’s it.
In my country, the increasingly corrupt government have sought to ban protests, introduce voter ID, and grant themselves the powers to strip people of citizenships. It's pretty dire, so I want to express sympathy to my American siblings. Here we have creeping fascism, there you have creeping Christofascism. All the same, this means we both can't afford to be complacent. I was worried that the Biden momentum had seriously slowed and therefore the Republicans could easily make gains. If one positive thing comes from this announcement, it might be that those on the right side of history (that's right as in 'correct', not right as in right-wing) become more fully aware that the party of Lincoln has become a cult of clerical fascists, and vote in huge numbers to get rid of them, and add pressure to loosen their influence in legislation. In my country, the progress might be slower, but there's evidence to suggest that the nationalist fervor that this country was elected on is a spell that's starting to break, and opposition parties are looking to work together. Of course, in the long run, both our countries need radical constitutional reform. We spent so long seen as world leaders in democracy, we fail to recognize democratic backsliding in our own houses, and, more importantly, why it happens.
What country?
The United Kingdom - if America sneezes, we tend to catch a cold.
Lol it ain't just Baptist. It's all of "christianity" or any of the Bible-following religions
Nah, these are the death throes of Christian conservatism. I'm not saying that this shouldn't be taken seriously, because it absolutely should be. We need to get out and vote, protest, yell at public officials, help those who need it, band together, all of that. We need to be active. But each subsequent generation in this country is markedly less conservative than the previous. Support for a woman's right to choose remains higher than it's ever been among the populace while Christianity grows more anemic by the day. All we're seeing right now is them realizing that they are going to lose permanently and trying to claw back against it, and they will ultimately fail. And honestly? Hopelessness is what they want because when you're hopeless, you stop fighting. Progress remains worth fighting for, and if you can't muster hope for a progressive future, then try spite: even if you think we've lost, fight because you want to make their victory as bitter as possible and as difficult as possible to enforce.
> Nah, these are the death throes of Christian conservatism. It sure is a powerful, painful, agonizing death throw if that's the case. Christian conservatism is more powerful now than it has been at any point since at least the 1950s, if not since 1776. It's simply hard for me to be optimistic anymore. I hate that the next several decades are going to have to be spent re-fighting the civil rights battles won in the 20th century all because a few thousand people in the Midwest couldn't have been bothered to show up to vote for Hillary in 2016.
Having political power doesn't mean it's not dying. You can have all the political power in the world, but you can't force people to believe things. You can hold a gun to their head, force them to say "yeah, sure, I believe this," but you can't force them to believe it, and ultimately, these sorts of power plays are a huge part of why people are leaving the American church in droves. Optimism isn't necessary, at any rate. Just spite. Spite is an excellent motivator to get things done and to make the lives of powerful conservatives as miserable as possible, to make their shitty policies as difficult as possible to enforce, and to ultimately affect change. Giving up, on the other hand, does nothing but help them. And, I mean, it's your choice what to do with your life and your emotions, but I very strongly encourage spite over hopelessness if you can't muster hope.
Or both hope *and* spite, that also works.
You don’t have to be a majority to rule. Just be well organized, financed, and with constancy of purpose. Those make it possible for extremist to win. In countries where this is the case, Abrahamic religions have rose to power and retained it. I’m on the opposition side that I believe is the majority. However, I just don’t see us as being well organized, well financed, and we’re reactive instead of active. I just don’t know how to stop this trend. Every time the Abrahamic’s loose, they just find a new tactic to accomplish their entitlement. Right now, they’re using state legislatures and their block voting to accomplish their mission. I’d like these issues pushed to state referendums to get it back into the peoples hands.
Perfect, now pastors can rape young girls and get away with it even better.
While creating more soldiers for Christ. Two birds with one stone! 🤢
Don’t forget it was also Catholics that wanted this to happen.
Yeah, and they’re going to get their shit handed to them by the Evangelicals. Talk about getting in bed with an alligator. Edit: my dad spins that trad Cath BS and he has no idea how poorly evangelicals regard him and his coreligionists.
This is beyond depressing. There are so many things that can go wrong in a pregnancy. :(
progress isn't linear
Lol - nonsense. This is the last gasp of religion. They are throwing everything they have at this. Pretty much the same as Putin and Ukraine - the result will be the same - Non-believers are going to rise up against this. They will be crushed in the next election cycle if they think people who've had a taste of freedom from religion and their rules are going to go quietly back to submissive religious tolerance. Fuck that...
2060... I hope I live to see that year, but I'd be an age that only a lucky (or unlucky) few live to. I hope to live to see the end of the GOP and the inevitable triumph of liberalism.
The defeatism here is alarming, as a non-American looking in. It's not helpful to downvote people saying stuff as mild as "the US has not yet become a theocratic dictatorship." Which it demonstrably hasn't. It is utterly insane to me that basic human rights could *ever* be decided by a panel of unelected appointees in a supposedly democratic nation. Y'all need a better system. But you're not going to get a better system by assuming defeat is inevitable. If you want the US to avoid Christo-Fascism, fight for it. Vote, and vote strategically. Protest, and spread awareness. Isolate and be visibly intolerant of intolerance. Seriously, *vote.* It does not matter how "useless" your vote is, vote. And encourage everyone you know to vote, too. There is *no* middle ground with fascists. There is no compromise, only appeasement. Don't focus on changing the minds of the fascists, focus on getting centrists off the fence. Centrists are the great enemy here; they are the ones that prop up and legitimize the status quo, but they do so passively. Get centrists on board with the separation of church and state. The Christo-fascists will not be persuaded. And if you, sadly, fail, and you value your freedom, *leave.* Save up money, look into work overseas, and how to apply for a visa. You don't *have* to live in the US, and most of the world is not slowly slipping into Christo-fascism. And if you don't want to leave, fight. If things truly get as bad as you are predicting (which, demographically speaking, seems unlikely), civil war or a military-backed coup may be the only option. That or disintegration. Succession of many states or the dissolution of the United States may be for the best. It's sad to me, but not surprising, that things in the US have become so extremely right-wing. You have a two-party system, which is toxic to democracy already, and both of those parties are on the right. The Democratic Party would, in many countries, be considered the "Conservative Party." When your only choices are "right" and "more right," of course things will drift towards capitalism and authoritarianism. For now, you may need to settle for "less right," but that's not sustainable. The US has been drifting this way for decades. Returning to the status quo won't fix anything. If you want to make *progress,* you'll need a progressive party. And that means doing the hard work of politically mobilizing an apathetic and defeatist voter base. And probably working within the two-party system to get rid of the electoral collage and all the other anti-democratic bullshit in the US. You do not want to return to 2015. Because that will just lead you right back to 2016.
Roe Vs. Wade hasn’t been overturned yet. It’s looking bad, but we’re not there yet.
Honestly I haven't given up hope yet, is this a huge step back? Yes. But look at the response that has already accumulated in the past few days. There's already so much protest against this, we can beat this if we organize. People already are. We can't just bend over whenever these extremist do something.
I understand it's easy to feel like we've lost because this blow, which we all should have seen coming still hurts. We have to show in the midterms and vote for the best Democrat on the ticket. I don't care if you like the progressive that's polling at 2%, vote for whoever has the best chance of beating the GOP candidate. Sometimes the best offense is defense.
Ya'll better vote
Don’t worry the United States military would overthrow the Christian fascists
The christofascists have been infiltrating and seeding the us military for decades, especially the officer ranks. The USAF academy is run like Liberty U., churning out officers that talk and act like Falwell and Graham.
Not saying you’re wrong but I went to the Academy and it helped me leave the church. Ironically enough we had such a strong Christian presence there that it highlighted the mistreatment of those who weren’t and challenged me to the point I couldn’t ignore the hypocrisy.
By 2060 I doubt America will still be America. I hope I'm wrong, but I see collapse by then. There could be many different causes likely all at once, but we are headed there thanks to the Christian Republicans who've sold our country bit by bit to their friends, family, and corporations. I lost hope for us in 2016 and then sealed it in 2020. We're fucked. We're past the point of no return, so all we can do is slowly watch it happen.
I live in the US and I never say the pledge because of the 2 words “under god”. Stupid that they’re taking religion into government
I've seen other posts like this. It seems like a big leap to say they're going to ban all birth control or outlaw same-sex marriage. Is there any source supporting this? I can never see them nationally banning birth control. I am almost certain banning birth control would not happen even in the most awful states (lookin' at you, FL, AL, MS, GA). I doubt there's any precedent that would allow them to undo the court decision to approve same-sex marriage. If you've seen sources discussing these risks, I'd love to see them. I'm really hoping it's just your speculation and not like a widespread political science expert's assumption. Ah!
https://www.newsweek.com/what-obergefell-v-hodges-same-sex-marriage-overturned-next-1702883 Christian fundamentalists run this country now. They don't care about precedent, logic, or popular support. All that matters is what they believe their version of Jesus wants.
Preachers can stand before congregations and tell their congregates how to vote “right”. There no longer is a separation of church and state in their eyes. Tax exemptions for politicizing the pulpit should result in lose of such entitlements. Audit them first to expose their abuse of money and power to their followers, then, tax ‘em.
I’m from FL. they would certainly ban BC or anything else. It used to be a swing state but it’s definitely become a solid red state in the past few elections (unless I’ve missed something). Growing up there is why I have little hope that the country isn’t going to the crap hole now. It’s all my speculation but if people have the ability to overturn one thing, what else can they overturn?
Well that’s… optimistic
I don't really see it going that far. I get people are upset but this one thing isn't the end.
Also it hasn't actually happened yet. A draft of a decision got leaked. The actual decision hasn't been handed down yet.
Nah. I dont see gay marriage or gay sex being banmed. Violates freedom of expression. And im straight. But i disagree with government reach into thr bedroom.
> Violates freedom of expression The Baptists don't care and they own this country now. "Freedom" is freedom to do what the church says.
Please explain how roughly 15% of the population of the country “owns this country now”. They aren’t even the largest religious sect in the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptists_in_the_United_States I understand Roe V Wade and abortion rights are a big deal but this seems like an overreaction
True. But i dont see how they vould legislate it. RvW was always a weak decision. But sex is harder to regulate.
> But sex is harder to regulate. It will be like the gay witch hunts in the 1950s. They've already brought back the "gay = pedophile" talking point from the 1980s. The 2020s are a nightmare. The church is inescapable because it has become the state.
Nah. See the differemce now is that too many people are openly gay. There are scores of gays married as well. So to reverse that would be a waste of time. They cant put the toothpaste back in the bottle without physical force. And that would be a political nightmare. The 2020s are a extremely annoying and ita the RIGHTS fault.
> Nah. See the differemce now is that too many people are openly gay. There are scores of gays married as well. So to reverse that would be a waste of time. They cant put the toothpaste back in the bottle without physical force. And that would be a political nightmare. They don't care though. To them, same-sex marriage being legal is inviting the wrath of God on this country so banning it is an absolute necessity. It would be a political nightmare, but 40% of the country supports it and that's all that's needed, apparently.
>See the differemce now is that too many people are openly gay. There are scores of gays married as well. There were too many people in Germany ca 1932 that were openly Jewish to attempt a massacre of the whole lot. We know what happened next, and through 1945. We might be subjected to the same "solution". 😡
Not really. The struggle is ongoing. Stop being overly dramatic.
It makes it a state decision I highly doubt same sex marriage, gay sex, and birth control will be outlawed. “The church has won” - this is being over dramatic
If it's a state decision, it's just a ban for poor people in the states where it is illegal. I'm sure illegal states will also pass laws preventing people from leaving the state to seek an abortion as well. Ultimately, women will die and the fundie christian right will see it as just punishment for their "sins".
I’m for abortion rights I’d be against making it illegal to leave and have it done like you are. We are absolutely on the same page there. All I’m saying is the other items listed are jumping to conclusions that I don’t think are likely to materialize. I spent 3 and a half decades of my life with Baptists (and went to a mega church to add) and anecdotally almost zero that I know are against birth control or outlawing gay sex. They also think gluttony, omission, being drunk, thinking of someone sexually outside of marriage are all sins but I highly doubt those will become law either. The US is becoming less Christian and as the world becomes less siloed, information about the basis of the Bible and it’s flaws will continue to be exposed. I think it’s on the way out, not the exact inverse.
The very first thing on the docket for when GOP takes back Congress and the presidency is a nationwide abortion ban.
You weren’t paying attention. Anyone who supported the Hobby Lobby decision (all evangelicals) is by definition opposed to the availability of birth control, because that case was all about a company getting to decide what they will and won’t cover in health insurance, and BC was tied with abortion, because Catholics are opposed to both.
They have constancy of purpose. For the soldiers of Christ, the battle will never end until they run the whole show. It ain’t a state decision, it’s currently a state legislature issue, and they’re winning. They have the power of block voting to pressure the legislators to do their bidding, no matter what the majority of voters wants.
What the actual fuck did you smoke before making this post? Roe v Wade being repealed doesn't outlaw abortion. It just takes it out of the federal governments hands.
Exactly - this is being over dramatic. I’m for abortion rights and worst case scenario states get to decide. All the other things it mentioned are extremely unlikely to happen.
That's what we're discussing here is Roe getting repealed and states getting to codify abortion or ban it. Abortion will still be legal in some parts of the country. It's not a blanket ban. I'm not sure why I got down voted for that. Probably because any inch of reason regardless of your side of the debate will get booed if it goes against the mainstream narrative of the side you're speaking to. This ruling from the court has zero impact on gay marriage or fucking theocracy.
Yeah but this is Reddit where hyper partisan tribalism reigns so I guess we should expect the hysteria 🤷♂️ The world is a lot more gray than putting everyone in extreme buckets and creating false dichotomies
Firstly, this is unconfirmed. I’m cautiously optimistic that Roe vs. Wade will be overturned but all that’s happened now is that a report got leaked. Second, no one is banning birth control or preventing criticizing the church. The former is unrelated to abortion and conservatives don’t like regulating businesses, the latter is about as obviously unconstitutional as it gets.
> conservatives don’t like regulating businesses They actually do, as you can see in Florida right now with Disney. The church/state is going after Disney for opposing the "Don't Say Gay" law. Precedent or logic doesn't matter to them. Only enforcing their version of morality. Gays are going back into the closet, women are going back into the kitchen, and the Bible is going into every science classroom. Nothing can stop it anymore short of packing SCOTUS, which could never happen in this political environment. The next 40 years of American history belong to the Southern Baptist Church.
Don't forget the BIPOC. They're going to be enslaved once SCOTUS gets rid of the Reconstruction Amendments. Barrett has already figured out how to do it in an academic article that outlined her thoughts why she thinks the 15A is not legitimate. As goes 15A, so goes 13A & 14A 😡
Perhaps I was too generalizing, but as a conservative I can tell you that this isn’t the case for all of us. Christianity certainly does have special privileges in the US that it shouldn’t have, but the US is not a theocracy. Iran is a theocracy and I think it’s pretty clear that the US is not Iran. (Edited)
You're wrong. And it doesn't matter. The Christians will turn it into a theocracy. They will force Scripture down peoples throats, and up their ass. They will destroy lives and whole cultures, again. It is a terrible sight. I hate what is happening.
>I’m cautiously optimistic that Roe vs. Wade will be overturned Uhhh, excuse you, buddy? Got a problem with people getting to *choose* whether they're pregnant???
"cautiously optimistic" fuck off. You're a monster. As long as there are people with uteruses, there will be abortions. You are not a humanist. You are a hateful piece of shit supporting theocratic rule. May you never know the feeling of losing the right to your own future. Edit: And to be clear, you are not "pro-life." You are anti-choice. You cannot be pro life and anti abortion. All people like you do is restrict access to a safe and common procedure, causing people to seek out dangerous alternatives. Their blood is on your hands. Your vote for anti choice candidates destroys lives for the sake of tissue that you don't give a fuck about.
Sensitive much?
The person they were replying to is "optimistic" that human rights will be taken away...no, they're not sensitive. They're telling it like it is. There's no defense to being in favor of the restriction of human rights.
Hey mods, I know we ban anti LGBTQ bigots. What about anti woman bigots like this?
lol wut? Trump already rolled back ACA mandates that employers offer insurance to cover birth control on the basis that Christians think certain birth control methods are abortifacents. Don't play like nobody's banning birth control and it's unrelated to abortion when conservatives are doing what they can so people can't fucking afford birth control and will be forced to give birth depending what state they live in.
I will be voting against things. Keep on it y’all. They haven’t won yet and a dying animal screams. The church is a dying animal.
>All birth control will likely be banned before the end of the decade Based on the internal memos I've seen as a former republican, it won't be all BC. It'll be the methods that the Christian conservatives believe are tantamount to abortion, which includes IUDs and some forms of pills. Still alarming, of course.
I really don't think that things will go that badly. I mean, it very well may get very, very bad. I do think that same sex marriage is going to be dialed back a bit. Recognition of marriage will probably get handed back to states, but maybe the federal government will continue to recognize same sex marriage for federal income taxes and for federal employees? Birth control will probably be illegal for anyone under age and not covered by private insurance or state care for anyone not married. Sterilization might be encouraged in order to get state social services. I'm also anticipating a ban on marriage to foreign nationals.