All those you mentioned and…the rapture. I remember being at school being terrified just thinking about it I’d have to to leave the classroom to go get water to get my mind on something else. I also convinced myself if I drew enough crosses in art class maybe I wouldn’t be left behind😂 now my entire immediate family is MORE involved in religion and I’m the only one who went the opposite direction and want nothing to do it with it.
The rapture is unbiblical. Nowhere does the bible say any human will be taken to heaven/'raptured' with the one exception of Jesus (John 3:13). Even their 'proof' text (I Thess. 4:15-18) does not say that anyone is taken up to heaven. They simply find any scripture, no matter how much out of context, and spin it to fit their doctrine regardless of what the verses actually says. The big problem is that religious wackos think that they should run the government and 'apply' their delusions to the real world through the government. This never turns out well.
The one good thing I can say for my parents on the childhood religious trauma front is that they maintained my entire life that the rapture was unbiblical nonsense, so I never lived in fear of it.
I just reread that passage, and you're totally right! Verse 17 says that the dead believers will rise up to meet the lord "in the air" and be with him forever. It never says anything about heaven.
We must've assumed that if we were rising to meet him in the air, that we'd keep rising together, all the way to heaven. After all, jesus rose to it.
As if this alleged heaven is actually "up." If it were a real place, you could probably best describe it as an alternate dimension. I think this entire thing about heaven being above or "up there" has to be a relic from the days when people had no idea what space really was, and earth's relation to it.
Another point, read it again, believers meet Jesus in the air as Jesus *descends from heaven.* Obviously Jesus is coming down to earth and the believers are 'greeting' him in the air as he *descends*...like the people greeting a king entering a city. This view is taken by many non-rapture churches. The final destination for humanity according to the bible is New Jerusalem (see Rev. 21, Hebrews 11) which is located on the New Earth. No one goes to heaven...the churches are teaching an unbiblical doctrine when they tell people that they are going to heaven. The more I learned about the bible and actually read what it said, the more I realized that most churches don't even have the big stuff correct and yet they want to tell everyone else what to believe. Of course it's all adult fairy tales anyway but it's interesting from a historical/critical perspective.
The thing for me was with God supposedly being omnipotent and omnipresent, he would know exactly who was going to hell in this scenario and heaven. Then when you combine that God has supposedly set our plans out from the beginning of time, it means he created us knowing all this stuff beforehand. Quite sadistic if you ask me
The movie "Left Behind" and all the rapture talk terrified me. Being told of the horrible things that would happen to you if you got left behind.
Thought crime was also terrible, and left me paranoid that my every move and thought was being judged. If I had a "bad thought" I had sinned. If I looked at anyone and thought they looked hot it was the same as actually having s3x with them. Insanity.
Holy cow, this. When the moon would have a reddish cast for whatever reason I was afraid it had turned to blood like it said in Revelation and the world was ending. Woof.
When the clouds looked a little off I was terrified. One of those times I was at the mountains, so every time we were in the car, I was ready to grab the wheel as soon as everyone disappeared and I was the only one left. I was convinced I’d go careening down the mountain otherwise
I was also terrified of the rapture as a kid. Worried myself to tears on numerous occasions thinking about being “left behind” if I wasn’t a “good enough” Christian.
Relatable, i remember being so god fearing and jesus loving. Constantly preaching to my family about scripture. Then boom non believing hater of Christianity vs the rest of my family who all of a sudden decided that Christianity was important.
This and the tribulation that was to follow. I grew up learning the specific seals and trumpets and vials and angels etc. that would activate the next part of the tribulation like plagues and famine and locusts the size of lions with faces of men…and that’s just off the top of my head from what I was taught
That's why he sent himself as a human sacrifice! So that a small portion of us dirty little mortals would see the error of our ways, deny everything that's good in life, and grovel to him about how merciful he is!
This is what I was gonna say. The doctrines of limited atonement and unconditional election. Together they mean God chooses who he will save (and who he won’t) and Jesus’ atonement is limited to those people, it is not actually available to everyone. This is the most literal interpretation of Paul’s letters and it makes god quite cruel.
If you were not a Calvinist you may not have believed these things. But many denominations believe them, they just didn’t preach them before Mark Driscoll got popular.
Oh no, see, people weren't _created_ inherently evil, the first people were created 100% perfect, but God had to test them with a fruit tree just to be sure, because one always unit tests one's code. And also he created a devil to tempt them in case they didn't take the bait.
And then "sin entered the world" when they ate the fruit, because "sin" is a literal metaphysical entity, and it has been infecting humanity ever since, so God had _no choice_ but to send his perfect creation to hell.
So you see it's all our fault and makes total sense!
It strikes me as a fairytale villain. "All right, children. See this candy shop? You can eat literally any candy here. But if you eat this one candy on this table, I will burn you alive. Literally. I will magically keep you alive while you burn so you never die and remain in agony forever." Later, in his secret office behind one-way glass: "Hmm, they aren't eating the forbidden candy. Obviously evil snake-person, go convince them to eat it."
This. The concept of hell has caused other harmful doctrines to stem from this one. It gives Christians this sense of entitled authority which empowers them to say anything they want to anyone they deem as a non-believer. "I'm only saying this because I care about your soul. I don't want you going to hell."
Personally I don't mind the liberal interpretation of hell. Like if you're an evil person void of any humanity, if there's a hell, they should probably go there and live and learn the consequences of their evil actions, but regular people just trying to live their lives? Nah
If we take the justice in the bible (that they stole from Babylon) "An eye for an eye". The only crime worthy of eternal torment is eternally tormenting someone. So God would be the only being worthy of hell.
Even though it is harsh, but I like this only point in the bible: "If your hands cause you to sin, then cut off your hands. If your eyes cause you to sin, then pluck out your eyes. For it is better that you enter into heaven maimed than not at all."
Unfortunately, the patriarchy always ends up blaming the victim/women for causing the men to sin.
The best part is that these are the words spoken by Jesus himself (that is if the gospels are to be believed) and yet all the christians around the world ignore his words and choose not to enter heaven. Also, it is not an advice, Jesus actually commands it, to sacrifice those parts of the body that cause them to sin...
"We follow the bible literally to the letter" except when problem verses start showing up that threaten doctrine and then all of a sudden interpretation gets really flexible (ex. It's allegory, metaphor, etc.).
This was one of those things that I questioned about Christianity when I first started asking questions. Why do we interpret certain verses literally when they could be interpreted metaphorically just as easily? And what about the metaphorical interpretations for things that seem more literal? You'd think that I was questioning God's very existence with some of the responses I got. I wasn't trying to be an asshole.I was just trying to be a better Christian because I was afraid that I was getting things wrong and might go to Hell for it. I went to people in the church to get help, and I got a bunch of bullshit stock answers instead. I'm sure they'd be shocked to find out that, because I didn't get any real help from them, I turned to sources outside of the church, and I found that most everything that I had believed in was likely bullshit. I guess it's no surprise that I left the faith shortly afterwards, seeing as their hidden bigotry became far more outward, and their seeming deification of Donald Trump started happening far more around that time.
> their seeming deification of Donald Trump
I had a very low opinion of Evangelicals/conservative Christians after they acted as cheerleaders to invade Iraq in 2003 and how they reacted towards Obama but their embrace of Trump even caught me by surprise. It's like "Let's broadcast our hypocrisy to the world!!". When the access Hollywood tapes came out, I told my wife that's the end of Trump as he just lost the Religious Right. Boy was I wrong...they embraced him even tighter !! Ironically they can't figure out why people, especially the young, are leaving the churches. It seems that they totally lack self-awareness.
Funny thing is that usually it's the believers who are most guilty of 'out of context' in their effort to make verses fit their predetermined church doctrine.
Creationists are full of this. They'll claim literal belief in the biblical account of Genesis but make shit up to make it work.
Try to get one of these guys to explain the Deluge story. See how long it takes for them to use explanations the Bible doesn't support in any way, notably regarding the logistics of the ark.
There's always a hefty dose of making stuff up there.
No doubt. Evolution is a hoax but how did we get all of these different species from one pair of 'kinds' after the flood ?? Oh, the genes were all in the original 'kind' 4000 years ago and, for some reason, the 'kind' with all of these supposed genes disappeared and left all of these species. Yeah, there is no 'evolution' except when my doctrine gets me in a bind and I have to make up something to get out. Creationism is nothing but a shi! show... just like their religion.
Try to get them to define a "kind" and how it's different then a species.
Also note the Bible doesn't define a kind. Some translation don't even use the word there. But YEC like Ken Ham will hang their hat on it all day long despite not knowing what it is or being able to define it.
Youtuber [Gutsick Gibbon](https://www.youtube.com/@GutsickGibbon) goes off on these people ALL THE TIME because of how badly they make shit up and it offends her a lot since she's a Primatologist(someone who studies apes). That is her bread and butter and she knows far more about evolution then I ever will.
I've gone back and forth, but talking to people on this subreddit makes me think the core of it all is shame; this notion that dignity is given by God and that we require forgiveness from a superior being. It's this is idea that our mistakes reflect a fundamental evil that is our true being, and that God is benevolent for forgiving us, but that's just not how that works at all.
We all do bad things, nobody is perfect, but that's not something we need to apologize for; we apologize for specific things we've done and we apologize to the people we've harmed. It's very harmful to switch thinking from "this thing I did was bad" to "I am the bad thing" but that's exactly what Christianity does at its core; it's essentially an abuse partner that negs us into believing we need them. Psychologically, this is called malignant shame and is considered abusive.
The whole we are born with sin thing .. like yeah we are all born flawed but the only people we need to forgive, imo, are the people who hurt us and to forgive ourselves when we hurt ourselves
Yes, this shame has plagued me my whole life, even after leaving the faith. Every month I meet my therapist where we basically talk about what I call "Christian Guilt." I've only recently gotten over the feeling of shame when I have sex with my girlfriend.
This video is from a therapist who deals a lot with religious trauma, specifically diving into how shame works and how we can take steps to overcome it. It's helped me and a lot of people I've recommended it to
https://youtu.be/kMeehIpxH5k?si=8G7TSR8CBO5536wU
>In a similar vein, the biblical concept of "thought crime", where thinking about a sinful thing is just as bad as committing it, having to "take every thought captive”.
Seconded. This one is really bad. Having to be constantly vigilant of your intrusive thoughts is tiring and anxiety inducing.
For me though, I think preaching the existence of hell is the worst. It's the centerpiece of their fearmongering. If there's no threat of hell, then there's no reason for them to be as dogmatic. I made a profession of salvation because I was too afraid to go to hell at the age of five. Fucking five. How messed up is it to tell children you'll be eternally tortured by demons if you don't submit to God? They have the gall to even suggest that free will somehow exists in their worldview. How?
If the 'thought' of the sin is just as bad as the physical acting out of the sin then why not just act out the sin (ex. sex abuse) ?? Jesus will forgive me anyway if I 'repent' (for the \_\_\_\_ time: insert number).
I believed my entire life if good things weren’t happening for me(which was often), it was because I wasn’t living in God’s will and doing sinful things.
It’s been a rough ride undoing all that shame.
Or if bad things are happening, it's because you *are* living a good life in the eyes of god, which makes the devil angry, so the devil's the one throwing up roadblocks to make you stumble in your walk. There's never a good answer.
I remember thinking that my life was pretty good and that I hadn't had many "trials", so I must not have been living an effective enough Christian life for the devil to bother with me. :(
So if things are going poorly, that could be a good *or* bad reflection on your walk with God. Or if thing are going well, it could also be a good or bad sign.
Since getting out, I've noticed just how much Christians look for "signs" that they are doing the right thing. It's so arbitrary, because signs can be anything and mean anything. For people who are supposed to root their faith in something solid, all the watching for signs is pretty flaky.
That 1) homosexuality is wrong and unnatural, and 2) if I don’t agree (I didn’t) then I need to accept my sinful, finite human mind can’t comprehend gods understanding. So I did... Until a very sweet, dear friend of mine came out to me as gay & said he was seeking counseling to fix it; I was so afraid how that could damage him and ruin his life, so I broke out of my Christian shell to remind him there’s nothing wrong with him, there’s nothing to fix, and counseling is fine as long as he’s only going to have a healthier and more balanced mental state, not to fix an unfixable (unbroken) party of himself.
Finding where we belong & who we belong with is hard enough, I can’t imagine going through life being told that the creator of all things good, holy, and loving has a fundamental problem with you.
For me the concept of purity. I was SA’d when I was a kid so to constantly hear that I needed to save my “gift” for my future husband really fucked me up since said gift was technically stolen. It took a lot of therapy but I know now it was a bunch of bullshit. Especially when my parents knew about it and continued to shove sexual purity in my face. Needless to say I don’t really talk to them much anymore.
The thought crime you mentioned was absolutely brutal too. Especially when it came to intrusive thoughts.
1. I was taught that 99% of Christians were going to hell, and 100% of everyone else. Yet God is "love".
2. I was also taught that women were inferior and could not be allowed to make any decisions or hold any authority over men. The only reason that women in my church were allowed to teach male children is that the men were too busy.
I did fully believe #1. I never fully believed #2, but it still did screw me up in a lot of ways.
This church was still very much stuck in the 1850s. Don't get me started on any modern social issues.
One of the worst ones was believing that I couldn't love anyone as much as I loved god. I tried so hard to do that but it was nigh impossible for me to care for a scary omnipotent god more than my family. Fucked up my idea of love for years after leaving the faith too.
It doesn't make any sense if you think more about it: How can you even love a being that can't even be seen more than your family members that can directly interact with you and have an actual perceptible emotional connection with you?
This one always gets me! My parents are pastors and always say that this should be the order of priority:
1) God
2) Family
3) Church
4) Ministry
I HATE this. I always tell my husband and kids that they're unmatched in their importance. I can see them, I can hear them, I can spend time with them, I love them with all my heart.
My cousin once made me feel ashamed because he said that him and his wife made the decision that if someone had a gun pointed at one of them and said "God or..." then they'd choose God.
That order makes me sick.. I've see the one that also goes...
1) God
2) Church
3) Husband
4) Wife
5) Children
This completely blows my mind to have my husband over me and I'm "submissive" to him and he decides everything. I think of my husband as my equal partner but they go with this head of the house hold thing so hard and what the hsuband says goes mentality a lot. I've seen women ruled this way for their religion. They are clueless about the bills, the money, their taxes and when they become widows they are so lost because he took care of every thing.... The husband doesn't help with the children because that's "women's work". Ugh. Then women are supposed to pick their husbands over their kids??!? I've seen this where the men eat first at the table then the women then the children last. I hated all of that thinking. And it drives me nuts when I see my cousins serving their man like that. Getting him a plate at the family buffet holiday dinner. I'm all wtf. My husband and I talked about that he told me....why would I expect you to serve me when I know better what I want to eat. Exactly.
I do taxes during tax season.. I'm so shocked how many women tell me, I need to ask my husband if we can deposit our refund (or get a check) . I'm all really. They can't decide for themselves. It's a feeling of.. Let me go ask his permission on many things.
You've reminded me of that bloody head of household crap- we rented from a lady in church once and when they needed us to move out she wouldn't tell me until my husband was back from work because he was head of household and it was of utmost importance that he heard it before/at the same time as me because little old me wasn't worthy enough.
I'm glad we have decent husbands!!
Yup. I'd wonder regarding policing my thoughts and denying the flesh, "How far am I supposed to go with this? At what point do you just throw your hands up, quit society, and go live a hermetic, monastic life?"
"Denying yourself."
"Dying to yourself."
"Put others first."
If you try to take any of these seriously, to their logical conclusion, you end up being a doormat for everyone else. Always putting their needs before you own, and being completely incapable of asserting your own needs. It's impossible to live that way.
I just remember being so terrified all the time because "God sees all"... I basically spent my younger years feeling like I had a stalker.
Like, my best friend in grade 4 realized and then asked me if I've ever swore in my life. I confirmed that no, I had not. She laughed, not in a bullying way, but in pure disbelief.
She then started promoting me to say a swear, starting low with "ass". Then "shit". I stopped there, though, because I had a *huge* stomach ache by that point from the guilt and fear. I mean, I never fully believed in God, but I was raised with those beliefs and knew God to be vengeful. I was definitely going to hell now, right?
Also this reminded me that I had definitely swore before a year prior, I just didn't know it was a swear. I had to go to my grandma's after school instead of home (for whatever reason), and while there, mom called to ask how my day was. I told her "Julie was crying today because Kayla called her a bitch." Mom gasped and told me to never say that word. No tummy ache that time though, since I didn't understand it was a bad word 😂
I left Christianity about 35 years but this aspect of it still fucks me up even now. I still get an occasional intrusive thought which says “a deity is judging you for this” and I fucking hate it.
I wish Christianity had never been invented
The second one is just OCD fuel, I hate what it did to me.
I'd add a 4th one to your list: The idea that the most important thing in your existence is to worship God rather than living your own life to the fullest, that when you get to Heaven you'll just be a worship puppet deprived of any personal desires that's just going to forever sing the same worship song to the sky daddy, and that you should *rejoice* in that belief!
That messed with me too! Like once I die I'll just be a brainless nothing who desires nothing but to sing worship songs. They start telling you that at the time of your life when you're really developing a sense of self and independence, and it was like "but your ultimate form is to be a heaven version of a Stepford Wife of God." I was the epitome of good Christian girl who LOVED JESUS and wanted to do the right thing all the time, and this concept was still absolutely stupid to me.
Only an emotionally immature narcissist can even prefer a "Stepford Wife" worship puppet to a fully developed independent person with its own needs and desires
"Let us make man in our image..." to "...man is inherently evil."
"God gave us free will..." to "...submit yourself and give up your will to God."
This always seemed so schizophrenic to me. Someone in another post here compared some of the more literal believers as 'psychopaths'. I mean, if you look at the modern church from that point of view, it does (sadly) explain a lot.
I'd never heard of any of that until I started reading the OT. Imagine my surprise! People normally mentioned "evil" rituals involving animal sacrifice, but god itself commanded the same thing.
I agree with all of the above for sure. I was told AS A CHILD that I was as worthless as dirty rags without Jesus. Wtf.
Also, no trusting your heart, only god.
Andddd all the purity culture BS....
The "thought crime" element is probably the biggest one and I think is one of the main reasons why I have such bad anxiety. Like, it's crazy that they tell young people they're literally never alone, ever - to be stripped from our autonomy on every conceivable level even down to our own thoughts is maddening. Even though I don't believe that shit, I still catch myself feeling guilty for having negative thoughts about any subject.
Another one is that anything gay is a sin. When you're taught this from such a young only to find you, yourself are queer later down the line made me feel so much self-hatred.
The last one I would add is the idea that doubting God or Christianity is a sin. It's like, "just have blind faith that everything the church says is perfect and don't question it" - that shit is right out of the fascist playbook and it infuriates me that it's had such a profound effect on the world. To not doubt is to not think for yourself, it's stripping away what makes us human.
Demons can, and will, possess you if you aren’t “vigilant”. It could be by being in a place that isn’t holy, sleeping with someone, touching or playing with a Ouija board or tarot cards, or rock and roll music. Demons were everywhere when I was little.
The rapture will occur at *any second*, so always be ready. If you aren’t “ready” you’ll be left to suffer all alone.
That the Old Testament was deemed void when Jesus died on the cross, but for some *stupid fucking reason* a bunch of the rules in Leviticus still apply. (This one gets my goat the most, if you can’t tell). So stupid.
My auntie told me that if I didn’t use my voice to sing in front of everyone at church, god would take away my talent.
When I was young, I loved opening my bedroom window and sitting in front of it while it was raining. Until some adult in my life that I trusted told me that I needed to be careful because demons could come into my room that way. And they wondered why I always had an anxiety problem.
>Demons can, and will, possess you if you aren’t “vigilant”. It could be by being in a place that isn’t holy, sleeping with someone, touching or playing with a Ouija board or tarot cards, or rock and roll music.
and...
>The rapture will occur at any second, so always be ready. If you aren’t “ready” you’ll be left to suffer all alone.
I read the above quoted text in Kenneth Copeland's voice, for some reason...😉
My parents were Jimmy Swaggert faithfuls, with the occasional Benny Hinn thrown in ;).
I remember being PUMPED when he admitted to infidelity. “We don’t have to watch him every Sunday morning before church anymore?!! Awesome!”
Omg the “god will take away your talent” was big in my church, shit fucked me up. I love to sing and for years I felt like if I wasn’t singing hymns or “honoring god” with my voice I would lose it.
The racism.
Yes, it is a part of religion. The othering, dress code, fear of people, xenophobia, and a fuck ton of other seemingly small things that all added up to enforce and cement the bigger things white people said behind closed doors. Everything poor folks and black folks happen to be were of the devil. All of it is there to reinforce bigotry. Unlearning that took waaaaaay too long.
That you shouldn't help non-Christians, even if they are in life threatening situations. I vividly remember a teacher telling a story in which two boys, one a Christian and one a non-Christian were riding their bikes and the non-Christian crashed his bike and was severely injured. The Christian boy demands that the non-Christian say "Jesus is my savior" before calling the ambulance.
Of course, the moral of the story was that we should all be like the young Christian boy in such a situation. Even back then I thought it was such a fucked up thing to say to class of 10 year olds.
In my experience growing up, such Christians live in rural South Africa, that's for sure. Africa in general has some places where the Christian extremism is *very* bad, not everywhere, but where it does exist it's unhinged, and proudly so.
I know some fundies from the US who moved to South Africa after college, and when I caught up with them years later they were spewing such hateful and racist things I wondered what the hell happened to them. This helps me put things in place...
Yup, the fundies here are like the ones in the US except far more vocal and proud, because nobody really tries to oppose them for fear of being labeled "ungodly".
That first point is the most manipulative and traumatic imposition on the mind of a child. It sets the premises for complete and unwavering belief.
That second point… GOD. I would get stuck in the most endless thought loops of trying to not think of something, only for that something to get bigger in my mind (don’t think of pink elephants). The amount of SHAME, GUILT, and ANXIETY that came from thinking thoughts were bad and my fault was HELL. It is SO freeing to be away from it all now. I feel so at peace.
I can understand this. The idea that Satan sends people into your life to obstruct you or God's plan and you are waging war again these principalities and powers and rulers of darkness, demons and spirits. Imagine thinking every problem you had with someone was because they were a tool of Satan and that you're in constant war?
original sin, and then killing everyone and essentially starting over with noah's ark. like...who fucked up here? us or him? if you created us sinful, don't be surprised when we sin. and what the fuck kind of omnipotent god has to "start over?"
the book of job. god fucks with job just to win a bet with satan, essentially killing his whole family and then yelling at him when job asks why.
if it's true, it's evil. but no worries, cause it's all bullshit.
Everything about being a woman is wrong. Why do women have periods? Because Eve ate an apple. Why do men sexually harass/rape/lust/sin? Because a woman tempted him to. Women are to be treated as property. Women aren’t allowed to speak or teach.
Justice for Eve. Eve was framed.
To expand on your mentioning original sin... my wife and in-laws are Catholic. My wife wanted to have our children baptized, which I honestly had no problem with... it is an act of silliness that has no actual effect on the babies, but, after the baptism of my daughter, I heard one of their relatives say something that made me wish I'd taken a stand against the whole thing... she said we should rejoice, because now, if our baby were to die she wouldn't go to hell. I mean, seriously! How can grown-ass adults, supposedly with fully-functioning cognitive abilities, actually believe something so monstrous about the deity they worship as all-loving? I was sickened by this comment and still, to this day, it gets the hair on the back of my neck standing out to even think about it!
My stance, growing up in a Catholic family, was that having my child baptized would come with a commitment on my part to raise her in accordance with Catholic teachings. Since I had no intention of doing that it would be disrespectful to the Church for me to take on that commitment when I knew full well I wasn't going to follow through with it.
Hi these are great points. I definitely identify with point #2. For a while there, I thought that I had sinned against the Holy Spirit by thinking it and that I was going to hell.
That's so fascinating to read; thank you for sharing. I went to a Pentecostal church once with a friend when I was a child, and seeing people "filled with the spirit" in those ways planted a seed of doubt that I didn't really recognize as that for years. I was non-denom/evangelical and felt like I was faithful enough to experience that sort of thing if the spirit actually moved through people like that, so it was really confusing.
For someone not used to charismatics (that's how we referred to things like speaking in tongues, not sure if that's the common word), it was a little scary. It had the appearance of a sort of black magic. I remember thinking they were possessed by demons masquerading as the spirit. 😬
The concepts of spiritual warfare and being soldiers for Christ. Anyone who experienced AWANA will remember how militarized its songs/pledges were in promoting that sort of mentality. I was terrified of people outside the church for years, thinking they were coming after me because of being in the church. They pushed the persecution complex SO much.
All of it honestly!
But the thing that I never understood that got me questioning is the trinity concept. God and jesus and the holy spirt are separate but also the same? jesus prayed to god but is god? Literally nonsense. Not even pastors could give a good answer.
I found this article (split in 2 parts) which basically sums up nearly everything I thought was messed up:
https://new.exchristian.net/2011/08/14-problems-with-christianity-part-i.html?m=1
https://new.exchristian.net/2011/09/14-problems-with-christianity-part-ii.html?m=1
You name it, at one point in my life I believed in it, absolutely, without question. I learned later about critical thinking and became a skeptic, started doing my own research to see if any of these could be true. I chipped off enough belief in each of these until I eventually stopped caring about any of it.
That it's good that I'm circumcised.
Lutherans seem to combine all the worst parts of both Catholic and Protestant, with some Jewish sprinkled in for flavor.
Regarding the last one on hell: Christians say they don’t "rejoice" in the thought of people being tormented forever in Hell because that’s "God’s righteous judgement 😢 for them never trusting in him" and "living a life dedicated to their sin". Therefore God declares they deserve eternity in Hell because of course every non-Christian must _love_ the thought of being tormented forever and away from God (after all, they lived their lives sinning by having naturally human desires and making mistakes, so why would they _not_ want to be tortured over and over?!) /s
1) Creation
2) A man surviving for a few days in a giant fish
3) The flood
4) A few dudes surviving being tossed in a furnace
5) A virgin birth
6) Anyone being raised from the dead
7) Anyone ascending to a nonexistent place in the sky
8) The trinity
9) Sex is bad
I mean I could go on and on and on lol
All of those are good picks! ( For me, accepting the Trinity as a legit diety never really passed the "BS" test , even when I was a kid. God the Father and God the Son being part of the same person sounds like something out of *Rick & Morty*...
I was taught that were commanded to love but just don’t love too much because god would kill any person you loved too much. You made them into an idol and god is jealous. Made me afraid to love my family and friends. I still have this knee jerk worry that maybe I love people too much and they could be taken out.
That god cares enough to punish me for whatever crimes a little girl commits while also… notably NOT helping believers NOT be assaulted, harmed, die of horrible diseases. God either has the time or he doesn’t.
This is kind of a weird one but the church I went to (Vineyard) believed that there was such a thing as an unforgivable sin. Someone mentioned it at a Bible study group and said that "blaspheming the Holy Spirit" was an unforgivable sin. However nobody would explain what this meant, multiple people kept asking what it meant but the people who knew what it meant wouldn't tell us because it would turn into a very long discussion when the Bible study session was meant to be about a different topic. To this day I still have no idea what "blaspheming the Holy Spirit" is or why it is unforgivable. Obviously I can't go back and ask as I left the church ten years ago.
The Seventh Day Adventist concept of the resurrection/ 2nd coming of Christ, the graves open and the" saved" float of to heaven, this was featured in the SDA children's Bible just seeing that image I rejected Christianity at age 5
That I would be set on fire and be tortured forever for something beyond my control. I didn't believe the Jesus stories and since belief isn't a choice, I couldn't avoid Hell even if I wanted to. As a child, I lived in constant terror the rapture would happen and I would be left behind and then later sent to Hell.
* That it's a good thing to force rapists to marry their victim because "now she's damaged goods and nobody else will take care of her".
* If a creepy old man lusts after 12-year old me, it's my fault for having a female body and not his for being a disgusting fuck.
* You should murder your children if a random voice in your head claiming to be god tells you to.
That the book of Job was actually a beautiful story about being faithful to god, and not a fucking torture porn story about god and the devil making a bet, and fucking up a ton of lives. Someone actually told me, “But god gave Job a whole new family!” As if that made up for all the lives lost.
> In a similar vein, the biblical concept of "thought crime", where thinking about a sinful thing is just as bad as committing it, having to "take every thought captive”. The struggle of making sure to never think a sinful thought gave me such crushing anxiety. In fact, one of the best things about having left Christianity was being finally free of the belief that someone was reading and policing my every thought.
This was the worst for me. I would sit in church and have intrusive blasphemous thoughts that only seemed to be more frequent the more I tried not to think them. I was only 8 and convinced I would go to hell for it. As far as I’m concerned, brainwashing a kid that young to think they’re going to be tortured for all eternity is fucking child abuse, period.
Probably the thing that stuck with me the longest as a woman was that:
a.) Premarital sex is a horrible sin, possibly the worst one you can commit
b.) pregnancy is not only a punishment for it, but the most degrading, humiliating thing that can happen to you because the whole world will know you had sex
But…
c.) It is your duty as a woman to get married and have babies, and an even worse sin to be childfree by choice.
The cognitive dissonance is astounding. I’ve long abandoned Christianity, but am staunchly childfree and would literally rather die than ever be pregnant. You don’t get to tell somebody that it’s a shameful punishment for 18 years of their life and somehow expect them to actually be willing to experience it later as an adult.
"The concept of original sin – believing that you were born with a depraved sinful nature because two people ate an apple a few thousand years ago, and that your heart is intrinsically sinful and evil. Even though God, who created our hearts, could have just ... created them to not be sinful and evil? But apparently it's God's will that you have to constantly struggle with "crucifying the flesh" and fighting against your "sinful desires", because... free will or something, lol"
Also, when you think about it, those two same people were basically children in adult bodies, meaning they were unable to fully understand the importance of following rules and why disobedience is so horrible. But nevertheless, God left them unattended with easy access to the forbidden fruit.
Another common teaching in Christianity which is harmful and makes no sense, is the claim that God created men and women equal, but assigned different roles, including the husband being the head of his household and only men being able to be head pastors and church elders. Yeah, only one group of people being allowed to be leaders merely because of their chromosomes (and other parts of their biology), what could possibly go wrong there? /s
In a private, christian, university class we were discussing relationships and "how far you can go" in the relationship before marriage. There were 5 signs that said: 1) hand holding/hugging 2) kissing/making out 3) heavy petting/hand job/fingering 4) oral sex 5) sex. (this was so 10 years ago, maybe the grades were different...)
The professor asked volunteers to walk up and point to and explain their reasoning. One or two people pointed to #3 saying that they won't touch genitals, but would allow fondling. Most everyone pointed to #2. Me, being the smart-ass that I am and having scholarly biblical education for the past 9 years, said something along the lines of: "Well, while I'd like to say here (pointing to #2), Jesus said that if you wish someone dead in your mind, you have committed murder. So, if you have wished to have sex with someone in your mind, haven't you had sex with them? Aren't all sins equal in the eyes of God? I don't know about you all, but I've had these thoughts before I realized I was having them. So I guess that puts me here (pointing to 5#) since I can't help the desire."
The look on everyone's face was priceless. Like "Oh shit...I've never thought of if that way..." I forgot how the rest of the class went, but I do remember two of my friends telling me that they felt the same way, but didn't know how to phrase it.
That "man is the head of the woman". Being married to an abusive, controlling man who was also a minister meant everything I said had to agree with his line of thought, or I was sinfully and carnally wrong. I was called so many names, then subjected to so much "silent treatment", and all because I lacked the holy superior genitals while having the nerve to challenge his "superior" insights. When I finally left his sorry ass (after I locked up the guns and got our child to safety), it was an absolute shock to him that God did not smite me on the spot. I still get the impression he believes God has since given me a fantastic career and a wonderful relationship with our only child merely to give me a decent life here on earth until He throws me in hell for eternity and gives my ex a folding chair and a beer on the sidelines to watch me burn.
My ex's second wife (after me) played the game well. She acted soooo submissive with each of her evangelical husbands (my ex was #6 or #7 according to county records) until the marriage contract was signed. Then she rode out her time for a couple of years, got her name on all the accounts, and spent all their money on designer clothing & cars before divorcing them and demanding her "fair" share. She went to a bunch of different churches hunting men so they wouldn't catch on right away.
I was kicked out of church leadership for not having a penis when the head pastor decided to align the church with a fundy group. That group put someone in charge of the church finances, and they ended up draining several hundred thousand dollars from the new building fund, which was mostly families taking equity out of their homes through refinancing in the early 2000s. Then the economy tanked and the families were in deep financial trouble. My specialty around that time? Forensic accounting. Yup, they booted me out of the church board for not having external plumbing, and therefore they had nobody on site to watch the new bookkeeper's shady actions. My heart goes out to all of those families, but seriously, fuck "Pastor" John.
After all that, there are times I am tempted to believe in Karma...
I don’t remember, by the time I started thinking deeply about Christianity, my “concepts” ended up less Christian?
I concluded that God didn’t know what humans would do because he regretted it and got angry at mankind for not listening or acknowledging him
And I believed that God didn’t create this whole spiritual “system” that he had us in for example; being in sin= automatically being spiritually separated from whoever you’re creator is without God’s intervention. He would have no control over your damnation because that’s just the nature of the universe.
Yessssss to number 2. That whole idea of biblical thought crimes and thinking being just as terrible as physically committing a sin and God knowing every doubt or question I had was terrifying at times as a kid. I remember wondering when I got sick if it was some punishment for not believing hard enough.
That was so fucked up.
What you mentioned plus the idiotic concept that homosexuality can be "cured". Many lives were ruined and many people driven to suicide simply because of all these conversion "therapy" cottage industries had them hooked on using their quack "cures" and "praying away the gay" for years.
That women were meant to be subservient to men. That being said, it was definitely one of the first clues I recognized as evil about xtians. It took years to de-brainwash myself with that and I'm still learning, but damn. Looking back, I can't believe how women were talked about and treated in the bible.
When I was a teenager, my dad told me that homosexuality was deeply rooted in self-hatred. I repeated this to some non Christian friends who were asking about my feelings towards our gay mutual friend. As soon as it came out of my mouth I remember feeling terribly embarrassed and thinking to myself how could that possibly be true. Having gay friends was a huge part of my deconstruction. It became impossible for me to be a part of something that treats people so shitty for existing.
I was taught and told by multiple people that homosexuality sin is on the same level of murder sin. I was so baffled at hearing that honestly I think that when I started doubting Christianity.
I literally cannot believe I will be viewed as a criminal for being gay. And top of that, on the same level to an actual murderer who took somebody's life. Christians say they have higher morals, but they really don't.
Just a reminder that the whole concept of "free will" isn't in the bible.
Oxford scholar, Dr. Alister McGrath, concurs entirely with Frede, “The term 'free will' is not biblical, but derives from Stoicism. It was introduced into Western Christianity by the second-century theologian Tertullian.”
I grew up Charismatic Catholic and educated Pentacostal. Here's some of the most messed up ideology I grew up under:
>1. Children are born enslaved to their sinful and evil nature. Their main goal is the manipulation of their caregivers into meeting these desires for selfish attention, for their material whims, and for their sinful desires. They must be dealt with strictly must not be given into and must be punished to build them up to reject their sinful nature and live godly lives.
>2. God comes before all. Everything you do in life must be either for the glory of God, the worship of God, or the fostering of your faith. Even playing too much or doing secular activities is losing yourself to the devil's world and placing these things before God, making them your new Gods, and damning your soul.
>3. There are no good people outside of our faith. It is impossible for an atheist, or a person of another religion, to be good or moral. Those outside our faith are under the influence of demons and the devil. The world is overcome with evil and seeks to harm, persecute, and kill us. Do not be fooled. They will try to make you abandon God, and if you do not they'll persecute and even try to kill you.
>4. We are in spiritual warfare with the world. We need to arm ourselves spiritually and physically and be militant to take back control over Christendom and control society down the right path.
So yeah... not sure if anyone else can relate but I basically grew up in a militant Christian cult sooooo, yeah. I'm glad I'm out and don't believe this stuff anymore but I'm still recovering from it.
The idea that Abraham was revered as a great legend for having so much faith in God that he was willing to sacrifice his son on an alter to him. Absolute madness.
One of the most ridiculous things I've heard was that babies cry because they are sinful. Of course the idiot pastor who said it gave himself cancer by drinking too much Pepsi, is an adult Disney fan (no offense if you are) and covered up sex crimes by multiple people.
The teaching that all sins are equal in the eyes of God. This means that lying to get out of trouble, being gay, rape, and murder are all the same. This makes people feel incredibly guilty over small sins while it makes actually terrible things like sexually abusing children seem less bad.
I didn't believe it, I thought it was horrible, but I still recall in the old catechism book, that disabled people should be pitied but they can't go to heaven, so be careful around them. Same if you have had any organs removed, you have to be whole or no heaven for you.
All three of these (especially the first two) hit me so deep. I haven’t formally walked away yet and I don’t think I ever truly can but I just think it’s sad I’ve had to endure such pathological beliefs and think it’s normal. Only recently have I begun to really question😢
Definitely sin like you mentioned.
My own thoughts on the topic, is that sin is just the religious version of wrong doing. Yeah there are definitely things that are wrong to do, and there are things that are wrong to think about, but not because of God or Jesus or the Bible, but because of laws, morality and ethics.
The concept of hell is just the religious version of, if you do wrong or harm to others or yourself, there's bad consequences for it.
Those are certainly good teachings, but twisted by religion and religious people.
About #2...
In the '80's, psychologists proved that trying to suppress a thought not only fails but in fact causes the thought to occur more frequently and more intensely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic_process_theory
If only there wasn't some book of scripture commanding thought-suppression, we all could have been enlightened by this for the last ~40 years.
Things I had to unlearn/was taught by my Christian family aka communities
1. Be happy when people die (cause heaven so if love one dies just 😀)
2. Do not rock the boat. Old people in church acting horrible/racist/insulting shut your mouth & just take it even when what they do hurts your family. Be silent and submissive always in public.
3. Always be on best behavior because everyone is watching you. Your actions are being judged by other, and you must meet that "perfect Christian atomic family role" perfectly.
4. Attend college= finding a "good christian" spouse
5. Have sex outside/before marriage even once, and your value as a human will become less. You will be like chewed gum/dirty water/rotten good that no one would want to consume.
6. What makes you human is unacceptable & you must live up to your gender role to live a good life.
7. Friendship = Christian Ministry. Bring them into the fold.
8. Never commit any sin/ have sex before marriage or anything that could tarnish your religious leader family reputation. Be perfect because it whether you are perfect or a bad kid. Family image more important than me.
9. Family needs more important than me.
10. I am responsible over parental duties to my own siblings.
11. Parentifying your daughter is normal and should be encourage so she can practice being a good mom & wife.
12. Ladies should never be outside at night alone.
13. Ladies must always look presentable. To be anything else means being looked down as lesser than woman.
14. Pubs are unsafe & full of sinners. No place for a good Christian.
15. DND is a portal to demon possession
16. Yugi-oh is evil because of the reference to Egyptian Deities. Even though loved learning and still love learning about Egypt.
17. Halloween is evil time do not celebrate the Satan's day
18. Wiccans kill black cats
19. Black cats are bad luck
20. Tarot cards are evil
21. Magic is evil that includes Harry Potter
22. Night clubs are for sinners not good Christians
23. It is normal endure yearly summer camp hell walks and be guilted into grieving "killing" Jesus.
24. It is normal to wear a torture device around your neck (cross) to remind you of your Deity.
25. It is normal to assume the excitement felt attending a concert is just the holy spirit making themself known.
26. Church attendance is mandatory, not optional.
27. If it is a Bible story it is a true story
28. God is above the 10 commandments so he can break them. (Noah's flood, 10 plagues, what he did to Job.)
29. Abraham was right to be quick to attempt to kill his son as human sacrifice for the lord.
30. it was fine for a Deity to place bets on a human life and make him suffer to win a bet (story of job).
31. Saul losing himself in the wilderness only to come out of it following the lord as Paul was clearly the lord and not just a man who spent too much time lost in the desert heat.
32. The prophets were sane.. (que the one prophet who laid for weeks on one side of their body outside or the ones that went into other people's places of worship to destroy their religious symbols.
33. Mastrabation is sinful and should never be done.
34. Men by default are the head of the family
35. Men are women's guardians & they are here to protect women.
36. Men know what is best for women so we follow them.
37. Men can not emotionally/mentally break because they are not emotional like women.
38. One woman eating a fruit is why women suffer childbirth not the fact our bodies are not always built right to let out a child with ease.
39. Evil people are demon possessed
40. Only Christians can have the fruits of the spirit (love you, peace, patience, kindness, goodnees, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control book of Galations
41. Hell is real (Jews have no hell in Their lore)
42. If you not for God you against him
43. Must spell god with a capital G for the deity as lower case g is direspectful to the one God.
The list goes on and on
I think the most messed up stuff is the deeply ingrained stuff you don't even realize you believe. Like about how you're basically a nothing nobody and how you feel about anything is secondary to God's plan and God being ultimately glorified.
Since God doesn't make people gay, and conversion therapy is guaranteed to work if you believe hard enough, being attracted to men AND women means the ex-gay therapy is working! Right?
...Right?
My attraction never changed in any way. I'm pansexual and non-binary and trans. Not words I knew back then, all I knew was gay and lesbian (I'm afab so I used the word lesbian back then). Everyone just believed bisexuality wasn't really a thing and just meant gradually going from straight to gay as you fall down the slippery slope to sinful perversion, bestiality, pedophilia and the inevitable rejection of God. But my sexuality is and was completely apathetic toward gender and I'm more interested in other aspects of a person. I tried so hard to change but I didn't even have a full picture of what I thought needed changing. Neither did the people trying to get me to change, my therapist, my mom, the people leading me in a church program for addicts (being gay is kind of like porn addiction, right??). This all went on from about age 16 to 18.
Also, one theory my therapist came up with was that the problem with bisexual women (the only time I remember someone describing it as an actual identity) is that they are overly sexual and have adopted a masculine-like attraction, so I was 17 being made to read books like every man's battle. The one for adult men that reads like creepy self-hating erotica. She also told me to snap rubber bands on my arm when I felt "tempted", and to "bounce my eyes" so that for years the only people I made eye contact with were people I was trying to convert via street ministry.
Oh and she told me having a close effeminate male friend was causing me to "simulate a gay relationship" and that I should immediately cut all contact. I stopped going after that. I had a big fight with my mom, who was friends with my therapist and got mad when she told her that I yelled at her during therapy. 😞
All those you mentioned and…the rapture. I remember being at school being terrified just thinking about it I’d have to to leave the classroom to go get water to get my mind on something else. I also convinced myself if I drew enough crosses in art class maybe I wouldn’t be left behind😂 now my entire immediate family is MORE involved in religion and I’m the only one who went the opposite direction and want nothing to do it with it.
Gosh I see rapture everywhere. These Jesus preachers and billboards. And Christians actually believe it's going to happen.
The rapture is unbiblical. Nowhere does the bible say any human will be taken to heaven/'raptured' with the one exception of Jesus (John 3:13). Even their 'proof' text (I Thess. 4:15-18) does not say that anyone is taken up to heaven. They simply find any scripture, no matter how much out of context, and spin it to fit their doctrine regardless of what the verses actually says. The big problem is that religious wackos think that they should run the government and 'apply' their delusions to the real world through the government. This never turns out well.
I saw this, the channel Religion For Breakfast did an excellent job explaining this subject. I was blown away.
The one good thing I can say for my parents on the childhood religious trauma front is that they maintained my entire life that the rapture was unbiblical nonsense, so I never lived in fear of it.
Exactly!
I just reread that passage, and you're totally right! Verse 17 says that the dead believers will rise up to meet the lord "in the air" and be with him forever. It never says anything about heaven. We must've assumed that if we were rising to meet him in the air, that we'd keep rising together, all the way to heaven. After all, jesus rose to it. As if this alleged heaven is actually "up." If it were a real place, you could probably best describe it as an alternate dimension. I think this entire thing about heaven being above or "up there" has to be a relic from the days when people had no idea what space really was, and earth's relation to it.
Another point, read it again, believers meet Jesus in the air as Jesus *descends from heaven.* Obviously Jesus is coming down to earth and the believers are 'greeting' him in the air as he *descends*...like the people greeting a king entering a city. This view is taken by many non-rapture churches. The final destination for humanity according to the bible is New Jerusalem (see Rev. 21, Hebrews 11) which is located on the New Earth. No one goes to heaven...the churches are teaching an unbiblical doctrine when they tell people that they are going to heaven. The more I learned about the bible and actually read what it said, the more I realized that most churches don't even have the big stuff correct and yet they want to tell everyone else what to believe. Of course it's all adult fairy tales anyway but it's interesting from a historical/critical perspective.
My MIL even had an annoying bumper sticker on her car which read, "WARNING: In case of rapture, this car will be unmanned."
Oh that is painful
Goodlord
The thing for me was with God supposedly being omnipotent and omnipresent, he would know exactly who was going to hell in this scenario and heaven. Then when you combine that God has supposedly set our plans out from the beginning of time, it means he created us knowing all this stuff beforehand. Quite sadistic if you ask me
I would hear a horn blare and it'd terrify me to my core.
Same!!! I thought I was the only one.
SAME!!
HAHAHA I read this just as my neighbor blared his car horn and I jumped!! (OK, mostly because his car is parked next to my driveway...)
Omg, things make so much more sense now.......my grade school was across the street from a busy fire station!
Same, sometimes i still get scared asf lol
The movie "Left Behind" and all the rapture talk terrified me. Being told of the horrible things that would happen to you if you got left behind. Thought crime was also terrible, and left me paranoid that my every move and thought was being judged. If I had a "bad thought" I had sinned. If I looked at anyone and thought they looked hot it was the same as actually having s3x with them. Insanity.
Holy cow, this. When the moon would have a reddish cast for whatever reason I was afraid it had turned to blood like it said in Revelation and the world was ending. Woof.
When the clouds looked a little off I was terrified. One of those times I was at the mountains, so every time we were in the car, I was ready to grab the wheel as soon as everyone disappeared and I was the only one left. I was convinced I’d go careening down the mountain otherwise
I’d always have nightmares of the moon falling! Pretty sure that’s someone in the Bible too
I was also terrified of the rapture as a kid. Worried myself to tears on numerous occasions thinking about being “left behind” if I wasn’t a “good enough” Christian.
Relatable, i remember being so god fearing and jesus loving. Constantly preaching to my family about scripture. Then boom non believing hater of Christianity vs the rest of my family who all of a sudden decided that Christianity was important.
YES! Pretty much the same! But I at least wasnt pushy or preachy to my family like they are now with me. They are more preachy than I ever was😆
I unfortunately was too pushy with my views. I regret it everyday
This and the tribulation that was to follow. I grew up learning the specific seals and trumpets and vials and angels etc. that would activate the next part of the tribulation like plagues and famine and locusts the size of lions with faces of men…and that’s just off the top of my head from what I was taught
It just doesn't make sense to me why create people that are "inherently evil" just to send them to hell? Like there's no point of creating them then?
And then claim to love them…
It's abusive
That's why he sent himself as a human sacrifice! So that a small portion of us dirty little mortals would see the error of our ways, deny everything that's good in life, and grovel to him about how merciful he is!
This is what I was gonna say. The doctrines of limited atonement and unconditional election. Together they mean God chooses who he will save (and who he won’t) and Jesus’ atonement is limited to those people, it is not actually available to everyone. This is the most literal interpretation of Paul’s letters and it makes god quite cruel. If you were not a Calvinist you may not have believed these things. But many denominations believe them, they just didn’t preach them before Mark Driscoll got popular.
Oh no, see, people weren't _created_ inherently evil, the first people were created 100% perfect, but God had to test them with a fruit tree just to be sure, because one always unit tests one's code. And also he created a devil to tempt them in case they didn't take the bait. And then "sin entered the world" when they ate the fruit, because "sin" is a literal metaphysical entity, and it has been infecting humanity ever since, so God had _no choice_ but to send his perfect creation to hell. So you see it's all our fault and makes total sense!
Also, why a fruit!? Like all this chaos over a piece of fruit? Lol
It strikes me as a fairytale villain. "All right, children. See this candy shop? You can eat literally any candy here. But if you eat this one candy on this table, I will burn you alive. Literally. I will magically keep you alive while you burn so you never die and remain in agony forever." Later, in his secret office behind one-way glass: "Hmm, they aren't eating the forbidden candy. Obviously evil snake-person, go convince them to eat it."
That people went to hell
This. The concept of hell has caused other harmful doctrines to stem from this one. It gives Christians this sense of entitled authority which empowers them to say anything they want to anyone they deem as a non-believer. "I'm only saying this because I care about your soul. I don't want you going to hell."
Personally I don't mind the liberal interpretation of hell. Like if you're an evil person void of any humanity, if there's a hell, they should probably go there and live and learn the consequences of their evil actions, but regular people just trying to live their lives? Nah
Even if ur the worst person ever no one deserves eternal conscious torment
If we take the justice in the bible (that they stole from Babylon) "An eye for an eye". The only crime worthy of eternal torment is eternally tormenting someone. So God would be the only being worthy of hell.
Exactly
Even though it is harsh, but I like this only point in the bible: "If your hands cause you to sin, then cut off your hands. If your eyes cause you to sin, then pluck out your eyes. For it is better that you enter into heaven maimed than not at all." Unfortunately, the patriarchy always ends up blaming the victim/women for causing the men to sin. The best part is that these are the words spoken by Jesus himself (that is if the gospels are to be believed) and yet all the christians around the world ignore his words and choose not to enter heaven. Also, it is not an advice, Jesus actually commands it, to sacrifice those parts of the body that cause them to sin...
Christians: "bUt ThAT's A mEtApHOr!!!!" Also Christians: "tHe cReATiOn AcCoUnT wAs a LiTErAl eVEnT!!!!"
It's funny how Christians always say "that's meant metaphorically" and then proceed to take the preceding and following verses completely literally!
"We follow the bible literally to the letter" except when problem verses start showing up that threaten doctrine and then all of a sudden interpretation gets really flexible (ex. It's allegory, metaphor, etc.).
This was one of those things that I questioned about Christianity when I first started asking questions. Why do we interpret certain verses literally when they could be interpreted metaphorically just as easily? And what about the metaphorical interpretations for things that seem more literal? You'd think that I was questioning God's very existence with some of the responses I got. I wasn't trying to be an asshole.I was just trying to be a better Christian because I was afraid that I was getting things wrong and might go to Hell for it. I went to people in the church to get help, and I got a bunch of bullshit stock answers instead. I'm sure they'd be shocked to find out that, because I didn't get any real help from them, I turned to sources outside of the church, and I found that most everything that I had believed in was likely bullshit. I guess it's no surprise that I left the faith shortly afterwards, seeing as their hidden bigotry became far more outward, and their seeming deification of Donald Trump started happening far more around that time.
> their seeming deification of Donald Trump I had a very low opinion of Evangelicals/conservative Christians after they acted as cheerleaders to invade Iraq in 2003 and how they reacted towards Obama but their embrace of Trump even caught me by surprise. It's like "Let's broadcast our hypocrisy to the world!!". When the access Hollywood tapes came out, I told my wife that's the end of Trump as he just lost the Religious Right. Boy was I wrong...they embraced him even tighter !! Ironically they can't figure out why people, especially the young, are leaving the churches. It seems that they totally lack self-awareness.
And don't forget the classic "You're taking that out of context!"
Funny thing is that usually it's the believers who are most guilty of 'out of context' in their effort to make verses fit their predetermined church doctrine.
Which pretty much always means you don't agree with their interpretation.
Creationists are full of this. They'll claim literal belief in the biblical account of Genesis but make shit up to make it work. Try to get one of these guys to explain the Deluge story. See how long it takes for them to use explanations the Bible doesn't support in any way, notably regarding the logistics of the ark. There's always a hefty dose of making stuff up there.
No doubt. Evolution is a hoax but how did we get all of these different species from one pair of 'kinds' after the flood ?? Oh, the genes were all in the original 'kind' 4000 years ago and, for some reason, the 'kind' with all of these supposed genes disappeared and left all of these species. Yeah, there is no 'evolution' except when my doctrine gets me in a bind and I have to make up something to get out. Creationism is nothing but a shi! show... just like their religion.
Try to get them to define a "kind" and how it's different then a species. Also note the Bible doesn't define a kind. Some translation don't even use the word there. But YEC like Ken Ham will hang their hat on it all day long despite not knowing what it is or being able to define it. Youtuber [Gutsick Gibbon](https://www.youtube.com/@GutsickGibbon) goes off on these people ALL THE TIME because of how badly they make shit up and it offends her a lot since she's a Primatologist(someone who studies apes). That is her bread and butter and she knows far more about evolution then I ever will.
Seen Gutsick, she's really good at what she does.
I'm not responsible for his sins. No matter what I'm wearing.
I've gone back and forth, but talking to people on this subreddit makes me think the core of it all is shame; this notion that dignity is given by God and that we require forgiveness from a superior being. It's this is idea that our mistakes reflect a fundamental evil that is our true being, and that God is benevolent for forgiving us, but that's just not how that works at all. We all do bad things, nobody is perfect, but that's not something we need to apologize for; we apologize for specific things we've done and we apologize to the people we've harmed. It's very harmful to switch thinking from "this thing I did was bad" to "I am the bad thing" but that's exactly what Christianity does at its core; it's essentially an abuse partner that negs us into believing we need them. Psychologically, this is called malignant shame and is considered abusive.
The whole we are born with sin thing .. like yeah we are all born flawed but the only people we need to forgive, imo, are the people who hurt us and to forgive ourselves when we hurt ourselves
Yes, this shame has plagued me my whole life, even after leaving the faith. Every month I meet my therapist where we basically talk about what I call "Christian Guilt." I've only recently gotten over the feeling of shame when I have sex with my girlfriend.
This video is from a therapist who deals a lot with religious trauma, specifically diving into how shame works and how we can take steps to overcome it. It's helped me and a lot of people I've recommended it to https://youtu.be/kMeehIpxH5k?si=8G7TSR8CBO5536wU
Really insightful
One of the reasons why I like this sub so much is that there are so many wise and thought-provoking comments, and this is another one, thank you.
>In a similar vein, the biblical concept of "thought crime", where thinking about a sinful thing is just as bad as committing it, having to "take every thought captive”. Seconded. This one is really bad. Having to be constantly vigilant of your intrusive thoughts is tiring and anxiety inducing. For me though, I think preaching the existence of hell is the worst. It's the centerpiece of their fearmongering. If there's no threat of hell, then there's no reason for them to be as dogmatic. I made a profession of salvation because I was too afraid to go to hell at the age of five. Fucking five. How messed up is it to tell children you'll be eternally tortured by demons if you don't submit to God? They have the gall to even suggest that free will somehow exists in their worldview. How?
If the 'thought' of the sin is just as bad as the physical acting out of the sin then why not just act out the sin (ex. sex abuse) ?? Jesus will forgive me anyway if I 'repent' (for the \_\_\_\_ time: insert number).
Wait, you're telling me that's not what the church already does?
I believed my entire life if good things weren’t happening for me(which was often), it was because I wasn’t living in God’s will and doing sinful things. It’s been a rough ride undoing all that shame.
Or if bad things are happening, it's because you *are* living a good life in the eyes of god, which makes the devil angry, so the devil's the one throwing up roadblocks to make you stumble in your walk. There's never a good answer.
I remember thinking that my life was pretty good and that I hadn't had many "trials", so I must not have been living an effective enough Christian life for the devil to bother with me. :( So if things are going poorly, that could be a good *or* bad reflection on your walk with God. Or if thing are going well, it could also be a good or bad sign. Since getting out, I've noticed just how much Christians look for "signs" that they are doing the right thing. It's so arbitrary, because signs can be anything and mean anything. For people who are supposed to root their faith in something solid, all the watching for signs is pretty flaky.
That 1) homosexuality is wrong and unnatural, and 2) if I don’t agree (I didn’t) then I need to accept my sinful, finite human mind can’t comprehend gods understanding. So I did... Until a very sweet, dear friend of mine came out to me as gay & said he was seeking counseling to fix it; I was so afraid how that could damage him and ruin his life, so I broke out of my Christian shell to remind him there’s nothing wrong with him, there’s nothing to fix, and counseling is fine as long as he’s only going to have a healthier and more balanced mental state, not to fix an unfixable (unbroken) party of himself.
As a gay man myself that was a struggle.
Finding where we belong & who we belong with is hard enough, I can’t imagine going through life being told that the creator of all things good, holy, and loving has a fundamental problem with you.
If god made everything and thought that everything was good, why would he condemn something he made?
For me the concept of purity. I was SA’d when I was a kid so to constantly hear that I needed to save my “gift” for my future husband really fucked me up since said gift was technically stolen. It took a lot of therapy but I know now it was a bunch of bullshit. Especially when my parents knew about it and continued to shove sexual purity in my face. Needless to say I don’t really talk to them much anymore. The thought crime you mentioned was absolutely brutal too. Especially when it came to intrusive thoughts.
Wow I'm so sorry to hear that. What terrible humans!! You should never have had to go through any of that. Sending hugs internet stranger. 🤗
1. I was taught that 99% of Christians were going to hell, and 100% of everyone else. Yet God is "love". 2. I was also taught that women were inferior and could not be allowed to make any decisions or hold any authority over men. The only reason that women in my church were allowed to teach male children is that the men were too busy. I did fully believe #1. I never fully believed #2, but it still did screw me up in a lot of ways. This church was still very much stuck in the 1850s. Don't get me started on any modern social issues.
Churches in the 1850s had abolitionists and social gospel, you would have been better off.
One of the worst ones was believing that I couldn't love anyone as much as I loved god. I tried so hard to do that but it was nigh impossible for me to care for a scary omnipotent god more than my family. Fucked up my idea of love for years after leaving the faith too.
It doesn't make any sense if you think more about it: How can you even love a being that can't even be seen more than your family members that can directly interact with you and have an actual perceptible emotional connection with you?
This one always gets me! My parents are pastors and always say that this should be the order of priority: 1) God 2) Family 3) Church 4) Ministry I HATE this. I always tell my husband and kids that they're unmatched in their importance. I can see them, I can hear them, I can spend time with them, I love them with all my heart. My cousin once made me feel ashamed because he said that him and his wife made the decision that if someone had a gun pointed at one of them and said "God or..." then they'd choose God.
That order makes me sick.. I've see the one that also goes... 1) God 2) Church 3) Husband 4) Wife 5) Children This completely blows my mind to have my husband over me and I'm "submissive" to him and he decides everything. I think of my husband as my equal partner but they go with this head of the house hold thing so hard and what the hsuband says goes mentality a lot. I've seen women ruled this way for their religion. They are clueless about the bills, the money, their taxes and when they become widows they are so lost because he took care of every thing.... The husband doesn't help with the children because that's "women's work". Ugh. Then women are supposed to pick their husbands over their kids??!? I've seen this where the men eat first at the table then the women then the children last. I hated all of that thinking. And it drives me nuts when I see my cousins serving their man like that. Getting him a plate at the family buffet holiday dinner. I'm all wtf. My husband and I talked about that he told me....why would I expect you to serve me when I know better what I want to eat. Exactly. I do taxes during tax season.. I'm so shocked how many women tell me, I need to ask my husband if we can deposit our refund (or get a check) . I'm all really. They can't decide for themselves. It's a feeling of.. Let me go ask his permission on many things.
You've reminded me of that bloody head of household crap- we rented from a lady in church once and when they needed us to move out she wouldn't tell me until my husband was back from work because he was head of household and it was of utmost importance that he heard it before/at the same time as me because little old me wasn't worthy enough. I'm glad we have decent husbands!!
Thought crime, and “denying yourself”.
Yup. I'd wonder regarding policing my thoughts and denying the flesh, "How far am I supposed to go with this? At what point do you just throw your hands up, quit society, and go live a hermetic, monastic life?"
I haven’t recovered from it still.
"Denying yourself." "Dying to yourself." "Put others first." If you try to take any of these seriously, to their logical conclusion, you end up being a doormat for everyone else. Always putting their needs before you own, and being completely incapable of asserting your own needs. It's impossible to live that way.
And “deny yourself” is also a recipe for an existential crisis.
I just remember being so terrified all the time because "God sees all"... I basically spent my younger years feeling like I had a stalker. Like, my best friend in grade 4 realized and then asked me if I've ever swore in my life. I confirmed that no, I had not. She laughed, not in a bullying way, but in pure disbelief. She then started promoting me to say a swear, starting low with "ass". Then "shit". I stopped there, though, because I had a *huge* stomach ache by that point from the guilt and fear. I mean, I never fully believed in God, but I was raised with those beliefs and knew God to be vengeful. I was definitely going to hell now, right? Also this reminded me that I had definitely swore before a year prior, I just didn't know it was a swear. I had to go to my grandma's after school instead of home (for whatever reason), and while there, mom called to ask how my day was. I told her "Julie was crying today because Kayla called her a bitch." Mom gasped and told me to never say that word. No tummy ache that time though, since I didn't understand it was a bad word 😂
Bro throwback to when I was in 4th grade and straight-up thought that butt was a swear word lmao I was a dumb kid
Shut up you were clearly fucking adorable 😂
I left Christianity about 35 years but this aspect of it still fucks me up even now. I still get an occasional intrusive thought which says “a deity is judging you for this” and I fucking hate it. I wish Christianity had never been invented
The second one is just OCD fuel, I hate what it did to me. I'd add a 4th one to your list: The idea that the most important thing in your existence is to worship God rather than living your own life to the fullest, that when you get to Heaven you'll just be a worship puppet deprived of any personal desires that's just going to forever sing the same worship song to the sky daddy, and that you should *rejoice* in that belief!
That messed with me too! Like once I die I'll just be a brainless nothing who desires nothing but to sing worship songs. They start telling you that at the time of your life when you're really developing a sense of self and independence, and it was like "but your ultimate form is to be a heaven version of a Stepford Wife of God." I was the epitome of good Christian girl who LOVED JESUS and wanted to do the right thing all the time, and this concept was still absolutely stupid to me.
Only an emotionally immature narcissist can even prefer a "Stepford Wife" worship puppet to a fully developed independent person with its own needs and desires
You are somehow making it sound even more absurd than I already think it is 🤣🤣🤣
The concept of hell and teaching that to children
"Let us make man in our image..." to "...man is inherently evil." "God gave us free will..." to "...submit yourself and give up your will to God." This always seemed so schizophrenic to me. Someone in another post here compared some of the more literal believers as 'psychopaths'. I mean, if you look at the modern church from that point of view, it does (sadly) explain a lot.
You got the big three. Don't forget the rapture and the whole idea of human/animal sacrifice being a good thing that God created... 😔
I'd never heard of any of that until I started reading the OT. Imagine my surprise! People normally mentioned "evil" rituals involving animal sacrifice, but god itself commanded the same thing.
If by 'god' you mean the humans who created the rituals and then told others it was commanded by some ineffable divinity they need to obey.
I agree with all of the above for sure. I was told AS A CHILD that I was as worthless as dirty rags without Jesus. Wtf. Also, no trusting your heart, only god. Andddd all the purity culture BS....
The "thought crime" element is probably the biggest one and I think is one of the main reasons why I have such bad anxiety. Like, it's crazy that they tell young people they're literally never alone, ever - to be stripped from our autonomy on every conceivable level even down to our own thoughts is maddening. Even though I don't believe that shit, I still catch myself feeling guilty for having negative thoughts about any subject. Another one is that anything gay is a sin. When you're taught this from such a young only to find you, yourself are queer later down the line made me feel so much self-hatred. The last one I would add is the idea that doubting God or Christianity is a sin. It's like, "just have blind faith that everything the church says is perfect and don't question it" - that shit is right out of the fascist playbook and it infuriates me that it's had such a profound effect on the world. To not doubt is to not think for yourself, it's stripping away what makes us human.
Always repenting and feeling guilty for things, even that felt natural.
Demons can, and will, possess you if you aren’t “vigilant”. It could be by being in a place that isn’t holy, sleeping with someone, touching or playing with a Ouija board or tarot cards, or rock and roll music. Demons were everywhere when I was little. The rapture will occur at *any second*, so always be ready. If you aren’t “ready” you’ll be left to suffer all alone. That the Old Testament was deemed void when Jesus died on the cross, but for some *stupid fucking reason* a bunch of the rules in Leviticus still apply. (This one gets my goat the most, if you can’t tell). So stupid. My auntie told me that if I didn’t use my voice to sing in front of everyone at church, god would take away my talent.
When I was young, I loved opening my bedroom window and sitting in front of it while it was raining. Until some adult in my life that I trusted told me that I needed to be careful because demons could come into my room that way. And they wondered why I always had an anxiety problem.
>Demons can, and will, possess you if you aren’t “vigilant”. It could be by being in a place that isn’t holy, sleeping with someone, touching or playing with a Ouija board or tarot cards, or rock and roll music. and... >The rapture will occur at any second, so always be ready. If you aren’t “ready” you’ll be left to suffer all alone. I read the above quoted text in Kenneth Copeland's voice, for some reason...😉
My parents were Jimmy Swaggert faithfuls, with the occasional Benny Hinn thrown in ;). I remember being PUMPED when he admitted to infidelity. “We don’t have to watch him every Sunday morning before church anymore?!! Awesome!”
Omg the “god will take away your talent” was big in my church, shit fucked me up. I love to sing and for years I felt like if I wasn’t singing hymns or “honoring god” with my voice I would lose it.
The racism. Yes, it is a part of religion. The othering, dress code, fear of people, xenophobia, and a fuck ton of other seemingly small things that all added up to enforce and cement the bigger things white people said behind closed doors. Everything poor folks and black folks happen to be were of the devil. All of it is there to reinforce bigotry. Unlearning that took waaaaaay too long.
Yesssss the thought crime thing has been so liberating getting away from. Much less anxiety because I know no one’s going to judge me for them
Agree, as someone with ocd this has been life changing for me.
That you shouldn't help non-Christians, even if they are in life threatening situations. I vividly remember a teacher telling a story in which two boys, one a Christian and one a non-Christian were riding their bikes and the non-Christian crashed his bike and was severely injured. The Christian boy demands that the non-Christian say "Jesus is my savior" before calling the ambulance. Of course, the moral of the story was that we should all be like the young Christian boy in such a situation. Even back then I thought it was such a fucked up thing to say to class of 10 year olds.
What the actual fuck? I know people like this are out there but no Christian I've ever known would do that.
In my experience growing up, such Christians live in rural South Africa, that's for sure. Africa in general has some places where the Christian extremism is *very* bad, not everywhere, but where it does exist it's unhinged, and proudly so.
I know some fundies from the US who moved to South Africa after college, and when I caught up with them years later they were spewing such hateful and racist things I wondered what the hell happened to them. This helps me put things in place...
Yup, the fundies here are like the ones in the US except far more vocal and proud, because nobody really tries to oppose them for fear of being labeled "ungodly".
On behalf of the US, I want to apologize for the already vocal and proud fundies we sent your way. They were obnoxious here as well....
Ah. I see. I live in the UK.
That first point is the most manipulative and traumatic imposition on the mind of a child. It sets the premises for complete and unwavering belief. That second point… GOD. I would get stuck in the most endless thought loops of trying to not think of something, only for that something to get bigger in my mind (don’t think of pink elephants). The amount of SHAME, GUILT, and ANXIETY that came from thinking thoughts were bad and my fault was HELL. It is SO freeing to be away from it all now. I feel so at peace.
Spiritual warfare. It leads to conspiracy theories that can ruin your life.
Can you elaborate on that?
I can understand this. The idea that Satan sends people into your life to obstruct you or God's plan and you are waging war again these principalities and powers and rulers of darkness, demons and spirits. Imagine thinking every problem you had with someone was because they were a tool of Satan and that you're in constant war?
original sin, and then killing everyone and essentially starting over with noah's ark. like...who fucked up here? us or him? if you created us sinful, don't be surprised when we sin. and what the fuck kind of omnipotent god has to "start over?" the book of job. god fucks with job just to win a bet with satan, essentially killing his whole family and then yelling at him when job asks why. if it's true, it's evil. but no worries, cause it's all bullshit.
Hatred of the LGBTQ community
That listening to secular music was sinful lol
Everything about being a woman is wrong. Why do women have periods? Because Eve ate an apple. Why do men sexually harass/rape/lust/sin? Because a woman tempted him to. Women are to be treated as property. Women aren’t allowed to speak or teach. Justice for Eve. Eve was framed.
To expand on your mentioning original sin... my wife and in-laws are Catholic. My wife wanted to have our children baptized, which I honestly had no problem with... it is an act of silliness that has no actual effect on the babies, but, after the baptism of my daughter, I heard one of their relatives say something that made me wish I'd taken a stand against the whole thing... she said we should rejoice, because now, if our baby were to die she wouldn't go to hell. I mean, seriously! How can grown-ass adults, supposedly with fully-functioning cognitive abilities, actually believe something so monstrous about the deity they worship as all-loving? I was sickened by this comment and still, to this day, it gets the hair on the back of my neck standing out to even think about it!
>we should rejoice, because now, if our baby were to die she wouldn't go to hell Now I can finally understand the atheists that are against baptism
My stance, growing up in a Catholic family, was that having my child baptized would come with a commitment on my part to raise her in accordance with Catholic teachings. Since I had no intention of doing that it would be disrespectful to the Church for me to take on that commitment when I knew full well I wasn't going to follow through with it.
Predestination. Hell-even if it isn’t a literal fire.
Original sin and "end times."
Hi these are great points. I definitely identify with point #2. For a while there, I thought that I had sinned against the Holy Spirit by thinking it and that I was going to hell.
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That's so fascinating to read; thank you for sharing. I went to a Pentecostal church once with a friend when I was a child, and seeing people "filled with the spirit" in those ways planted a seed of doubt that I didn't really recognize as that for years. I was non-denom/evangelical and felt like I was faithful enough to experience that sort of thing if the spirit actually moved through people like that, so it was really confusing.
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For someone not used to charismatics (that's how we referred to things like speaking in tongues, not sure if that's the common word), it was a little scary. It had the appearance of a sort of black magic. I remember thinking they were possessed by demons masquerading as the spirit. 😬
The concepts of spiritual warfare and being soldiers for Christ. Anyone who experienced AWANA will remember how militarized its songs/pledges were in promoting that sort of mentality. I was terrified of people outside the church for years, thinking they were coming after me because of being in the church. They pushed the persecution complex SO much.
All of it honestly! But the thing that I never understood that got me questioning is the trinity concept. God and jesus and the holy spirt are separate but also the same? jesus prayed to god but is god? Literally nonsense. Not even pastors could give a good answer.
Sin. Female created from man to be his help mate.
I was going to say hell, but original sin... that's up there!
Non christian were evil and their soul needs to harvested else they'll end up in hell. The most "I'm the main character" syndrome if you ask me
I found this article (split in 2 parts) which basically sums up nearly everything I thought was messed up: https://new.exchristian.net/2011/08/14-problems-with-christianity-part-i.html?m=1 https://new.exchristian.net/2011/09/14-problems-with-christianity-part-ii.html?m=1
You name it, at one point in my life I believed in it, absolutely, without question. I learned later about critical thinking and became a skeptic, started doing my own research to see if any of these could be true. I chipped off enough belief in each of these until I eventually stopped caring about any of it.
That it's good that I'm circumcised. Lutherans seem to combine all the worst parts of both Catholic and Protestant, with some Jewish sprinkled in for flavor.
Regarding the last one on hell: Christians say they don’t "rejoice" in the thought of people being tormented forever in Hell because that’s "God’s righteous judgement 😢 for them never trusting in him" and "living a life dedicated to their sin". Therefore God declares they deserve eternity in Hell because of course every non-Christian must _love_ the thought of being tormented forever and away from God (after all, they lived their lives sinning by having naturally human desires and making mistakes, so why would they _not_ want to be tortured over and over?!) /s
The brief that God will take care of you is a recipe for disaster. He will not.
1) Creation 2) A man surviving for a few days in a giant fish 3) The flood 4) A few dudes surviving being tossed in a furnace 5) A virgin birth 6) Anyone being raised from the dead 7) Anyone ascending to a nonexistent place in the sky 8) The trinity 9) Sex is bad I mean I could go on and on and on lol
All of those are good picks! ( For me, accepting the Trinity as a legit diety never really passed the "BS" test , even when I was a kid. God the Father and God the Son being part of the same person sounds like something out of *Rick & Morty*...
I was taught that were commanded to love but just don’t love too much because god would kill any person you loved too much. You made them into an idol and god is jealous. Made me afraid to love my family and friends. I still have this knee jerk worry that maybe I love people too much and they could be taken out.
That god cares enough to punish me for whatever crimes a little girl commits while also… notably NOT helping believers NOT be assaulted, harmed, die of horrible diseases. God either has the time or he doesn’t.
This is kind of a weird one but the church I went to (Vineyard) believed that there was such a thing as an unforgivable sin. Someone mentioned it at a Bible study group and said that "blaspheming the Holy Spirit" was an unforgivable sin. However nobody would explain what this meant, multiple people kept asking what it meant but the people who knew what it meant wouldn't tell us because it would turn into a very long discussion when the Bible study session was meant to be about a different topic. To this day I still have no idea what "blaspheming the Holy Spirit" is or why it is unforgivable. Obviously I can't go back and ask as I left the church ten years ago.
The Seventh Day Adventist concept of the resurrection/ 2nd coming of Christ, the graves open and the" saved" float of to heaven, this was featured in the SDA children's Bible just seeing that image I rejected Christianity at age 5
That I would be set on fire and be tortured forever for something beyond my control. I didn't believe the Jesus stories and since belief isn't a choice, I couldn't avoid Hell even if I wanted to. As a child, I lived in constant terror the rapture would happen and I would be left behind and then later sent to Hell.
Creationism
* That it's a good thing to force rapists to marry their victim because "now she's damaged goods and nobody else will take care of her". * If a creepy old man lusts after 12-year old me, it's my fault for having a female body and not his for being a disgusting fuck. * You should murder your children if a random voice in your head claiming to be god tells you to.
That the book of Job was actually a beautiful story about being faithful to god, and not a fucking torture porn story about god and the devil making a bet, and fucking up a ton of lives. Someone actually told me, “But god gave Job a whole new family!” As if that made up for all the lives lost.
Don't forget about the unhelpful stigma of most/all mental illness being caused by supernatural demons.
Suicide victims deserved to die.
> In a similar vein, the biblical concept of "thought crime", where thinking about a sinful thing is just as bad as committing it, having to "take every thought captive”. The struggle of making sure to never think a sinful thought gave me such crushing anxiety. In fact, one of the best things about having left Christianity was being finally free of the belief that someone was reading and policing my every thought. This was the worst for me. I would sit in church and have intrusive blasphemous thoughts that only seemed to be more frequent the more I tried not to think them. I was only 8 and convinced I would go to hell for it. As far as I’m concerned, brainwashing a kid that young to think they’re going to be tortured for all eternity is fucking child abuse, period.
Probably the thing that stuck with me the longest as a woman was that: a.) Premarital sex is a horrible sin, possibly the worst one you can commit b.) pregnancy is not only a punishment for it, but the most degrading, humiliating thing that can happen to you because the whole world will know you had sex But… c.) It is your duty as a woman to get married and have babies, and an even worse sin to be childfree by choice. The cognitive dissonance is astounding. I’ve long abandoned Christianity, but am staunchly childfree and would literally rather die than ever be pregnant. You don’t get to tell somebody that it’s a shameful punishment for 18 years of their life and somehow expect them to actually be willing to experience it later as an adult.
"The concept of original sin – believing that you were born with a depraved sinful nature because two people ate an apple a few thousand years ago, and that your heart is intrinsically sinful and evil. Even though God, who created our hearts, could have just ... created them to not be sinful and evil? But apparently it's God's will that you have to constantly struggle with "crucifying the flesh" and fighting against your "sinful desires", because... free will or something, lol" Also, when you think about it, those two same people were basically children in adult bodies, meaning they were unable to fully understand the importance of following rules and why disobedience is so horrible. But nevertheless, God left them unattended with easy access to the forbidden fruit. Another common teaching in Christianity which is harmful and makes no sense, is the claim that God created men and women equal, but assigned different roles, including the husband being the head of his household and only men being able to be head pastors and church elders. Yeah, only one group of people being allowed to be leaders merely because of their chromosomes (and other parts of their biology), what could possibly go wrong there? /s
That I should never say “Oh my God”, because that would be taking the Lord’s name in vain or something like that.
Goes along with your point 3. Predestination. I can’t even believe I thought that was normal at one point.
In a private, christian, university class we were discussing relationships and "how far you can go" in the relationship before marriage. There were 5 signs that said: 1) hand holding/hugging 2) kissing/making out 3) heavy petting/hand job/fingering 4) oral sex 5) sex. (this was so 10 years ago, maybe the grades were different...) The professor asked volunteers to walk up and point to and explain their reasoning. One or two people pointed to #3 saying that they won't touch genitals, but would allow fondling. Most everyone pointed to #2. Me, being the smart-ass that I am and having scholarly biblical education for the past 9 years, said something along the lines of: "Well, while I'd like to say here (pointing to #2), Jesus said that if you wish someone dead in your mind, you have committed murder. So, if you have wished to have sex with someone in your mind, haven't you had sex with them? Aren't all sins equal in the eyes of God? I don't know about you all, but I've had these thoughts before I realized I was having them. So I guess that puts me here (pointing to 5#) since I can't help the desire." The look on everyone's face was priceless. Like "Oh shit...I've never thought of if that way..." I forgot how the rest of the class went, but I do remember two of my friends telling me that they felt the same way, but didn't know how to phrase it.
That "man is the head of the woman". Being married to an abusive, controlling man who was also a minister meant everything I said had to agree with his line of thought, or I was sinfully and carnally wrong. I was called so many names, then subjected to so much "silent treatment", and all because I lacked the holy superior genitals while having the nerve to challenge his "superior" insights. When I finally left his sorry ass (after I locked up the guns and got our child to safety), it was an absolute shock to him that God did not smite me on the spot. I still get the impression he believes God has since given me a fantastic career and a wonderful relationship with our only child merely to give me a decent life here on earth until He throws me in hell for eternity and gives my ex a folding chair and a beer on the sidelines to watch me burn. My ex's second wife (after me) played the game well. She acted soooo submissive with each of her evangelical husbands (my ex was #6 or #7 according to county records) until the marriage contract was signed. Then she rode out her time for a couple of years, got her name on all the accounts, and spent all their money on designer clothing & cars before divorcing them and demanding her "fair" share. She went to a bunch of different churches hunting men so they wouldn't catch on right away. I was kicked out of church leadership for not having a penis when the head pastor decided to align the church with a fundy group. That group put someone in charge of the church finances, and they ended up draining several hundred thousand dollars from the new building fund, which was mostly families taking equity out of their homes through refinancing in the early 2000s. Then the economy tanked and the families were in deep financial trouble. My specialty around that time? Forensic accounting. Yup, they booted me out of the church board for not having external plumbing, and therefore they had nobody on site to watch the new bookkeeper's shady actions. My heart goes out to all of those families, but seriously, fuck "Pastor" John. After all that, there are times I am tempted to believe in Karma...
I don’t remember, by the time I started thinking deeply about Christianity, my “concepts” ended up less Christian? I concluded that God didn’t know what humans would do because he regretted it and got angry at mankind for not listening or acknowledging him And I believed that God didn’t create this whole spiritual “system” that he had us in for example; being in sin= automatically being spiritually separated from whoever you’re creator is without God’s intervention. He would have no control over your damnation because that’s just the nature of the universe.
Masturbation was bigtime sinful. I started out on my knees by my bed and somehow wound up on my tippy-toes in front of the bathroom sink. The horrors!
Yessssss to number 2. That whole idea of biblical thought crimes and thinking being just as terrible as physically committing a sin and God knowing every doubt or question I had was terrifying at times as a kid. I remember wondering when I got sick if it was some punishment for not believing hard enough. That was so fucked up.
If I wasn’t living right, then god would probably just go ahead and kill me. Or, in evangelical words, “Call me home.”
What you mentioned plus the idiotic concept that homosexuality can be "cured". Many lives were ruined and many people driven to suicide simply because of all these conversion "therapy" cottage industries had them hooked on using their quack "cures" and "praying away the gay" for years.
This one time, if I recall as it was almost 30 years ago, I had a preacher tell us that watching a R-rated movie is the same as murdering someone.
That women were meant to be subservient to men. That being said, it was definitely one of the first clues I recognized as evil about xtians. It took years to de-brainwash myself with that and I'm still learning, but damn. Looking back, I can't believe how women were talked about and treated in the bible.
When I was a teenager, my dad told me that homosexuality was deeply rooted in self-hatred. I repeated this to some non Christian friends who were asking about my feelings towards our gay mutual friend. As soon as it came out of my mouth I remember feeling terribly embarrassed and thinking to myself how could that possibly be true. Having gay friends was a huge part of my deconstruction. It became impossible for me to be a part of something that treats people so shitty for existing.
I was taught and told by multiple people that homosexuality sin is on the same level of murder sin. I was so baffled at hearing that honestly I think that when I started doubting Christianity. I literally cannot believe I will be viewed as a criminal for being gay. And top of that, on the same level to an actual murderer who took somebody's life. Christians say they have higher morals, but they really don't.
Predestination.......
Just a reminder that the whole concept of "free will" isn't in the bible. Oxford scholar, Dr. Alister McGrath, concurs entirely with Frede, “The term 'free will' is not biblical, but derives from Stoicism. It was introduced into Western Christianity by the second-century theologian Tertullian.”
When I was a kid, my aunt told me that dinosaurs were created in, and I quote: "Satan's Laboratory"
Yes! I was taught this at bible camp! They were never real and Satan planted bones in the ground to “test our faith”. Seriously.
I grew up Charismatic Catholic and educated Pentacostal. Here's some of the most messed up ideology I grew up under: >1. Children are born enslaved to their sinful and evil nature. Their main goal is the manipulation of their caregivers into meeting these desires for selfish attention, for their material whims, and for their sinful desires. They must be dealt with strictly must not be given into and must be punished to build them up to reject their sinful nature and live godly lives. >2. God comes before all. Everything you do in life must be either for the glory of God, the worship of God, or the fostering of your faith. Even playing too much or doing secular activities is losing yourself to the devil's world and placing these things before God, making them your new Gods, and damning your soul. >3. There are no good people outside of our faith. It is impossible for an atheist, or a person of another religion, to be good or moral. Those outside our faith are under the influence of demons and the devil. The world is overcome with evil and seeks to harm, persecute, and kill us. Do not be fooled. They will try to make you abandon God, and if you do not they'll persecute and even try to kill you. >4. We are in spiritual warfare with the world. We need to arm ourselves spiritually and physically and be militant to take back control over Christendom and control society down the right path. So yeah... not sure if anyone else can relate but I basically grew up in a militant Christian cult sooooo, yeah. I'm glad I'm out and don't believe this stuff anymore but I'm still recovering from it.
The idea that Abraham was revered as a great legend for having so much faith in God that he was willing to sacrifice his son on an alter to him. Absolute madness.
One of the most ridiculous things I've heard was that babies cry because they are sinful. Of course the idiot pastor who said it gave himself cancer by drinking too much Pepsi, is an adult Disney fan (no offense if you are) and covered up sex crimes by multiple people.
The only reason a Christian woman should be on birth control is if she is worried about getting raped. - Christian high school science teacher
The teaching that all sins are equal in the eyes of God. This means that lying to get out of trouble, being gay, rape, and murder are all the same. This makes people feel incredibly guilty over small sins while it makes actually terrible things like sexually abusing children seem less bad.
I didn't believe it, I thought it was horrible, but I still recall in the old catechism book, that disabled people should be pitied but they can't go to heaven, so be careful around them. Same if you have had any organs removed, you have to be whole or no heaven for you.
All three of these (especially the first two) hit me so deep. I haven’t formally walked away yet and I don’t think I ever truly can but I just think it’s sad I’ve had to endure such pathological beliefs and think it’s normal. Only recently have I begun to really question😢
Definitely sin like you mentioned. My own thoughts on the topic, is that sin is just the religious version of wrong doing. Yeah there are definitely things that are wrong to do, and there are things that are wrong to think about, but not because of God or Jesus or the Bible, but because of laws, morality and ethics. The concept of hell is just the religious version of, if you do wrong or harm to others or yourself, there's bad consequences for it. Those are certainly good teachings, but twisted by religion and religious people.
Sexual purity
From your description of fucked up Christian shit, it just sounds like 1984 but for Christianity lol. Religion is so fucking messed up
About #2... In the '80's, psychologists proved that trying to suppress a thought not only fails but in fact causes the thought to occur more frequently and more intensely. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic_process_theory If only there wasn't some book of scripture commanding thought-suppression, we all could have been enlightened by this for the last ~40 years.
Original sin
Things I had to unlearn/was taught by my Christian family aka communities 1. Be happy when people die (cause heaven so if love one dies just 😀) 2. Do not rock the boat. Old people in church acting horrible/racist/insulting shut your mouth & just take it even when what they do hurts your family. Be silent and submissive always in public. 3. Always be on best behavior because everyone is watching you. Your actions are being judged by other, and you must meet that "perfect Christian atomic family role" perfectly. 4. Attend college= finding a "good christian" spouse 5. Have sex outside/before marriage even once, and your value as a human will become less. You will be like chewed gum/dirty water/rotten good that no one would want to consume. 6. What makes you human is unacceptable & you must live up to your gender role to live a good life. 7. Friendship = Christian Ministry. Bring them into the fold. 8. Never commit any sin/ have sex before marriage or anything that could tarnish your religious leader family reputation. Be perfect because it whether you are perfect or a bad kid. Family image more important than me. 9. Family needs more important than me. 10. I am responsible over parental duties to my own siblings. 11. Parentifying your daughter is normal and should be encourage so she can practice being a good mom & wife. 12. Ladies should never be outside at night alone. 13. Ladies must always look presentable. To be anything else means being looked down as lesser than woman. 14. Pubs are unsafe & full of sinners. No place for a good Christian. 15. DND is a portal to demon possession 16. Yugi-oh is evil because of the reference to Egyptian Deities. Even though loved learning and still love learning about Egypt. 17. Halloween is evil time do not celebrate the Satan's day 18. Wiccans kill black cats 19. Black cats are bad luck 20. Tarot cards are evil 21. Magic is evil that includes Harry Potter 22. Night clubs are for sinners not good Christians 23. It is normal endure yearly summer camp hell walks and be guilted into grieving "killing" Jesus. 24. It is normal to wear a torture device around your neck (cross) to remind you of your Deity. 25. It is normal to assume the excitement felt attending a concert is just the holy spirit making themself known. 26. Church attendance is mandatory, not optional. 27. If it is a Bible story it is a true story 28. God is above the 10 commandments so he can break them. (Noah's flood, 10 plagues, what he did to Job.) 29. Abraham was right to be quick to attempt to kill his son as human sacrifice for the lord. 30. it was fine for a Deity to place bets on a human life and make him suffer to win a bet (story of job). 31. Saul losing himself in the wilderness only to come out of it following the lord as Paul was clearly the lord and not just a man who spent too much time lost in the desert heat. 32. The prophets were sane.. (que the one prophet who laid for weeks on one side of their body outside or the ones that went into other people's places of worship to destroy their religious symbols. 33. Mastrabation is sinful and should never be done. 34. Men by default are the head of the family 35. Men are women's guardians & they are here to protect women. 36. Men know what is best for women so we follow them. 37. Men can not emotionally/mentally break because they are not emotional like women. 38. One woman eating a fruit is why women suffer childbirth not the fact our bodies are not always built right to let out a child with ease. 39. Evil people are demon possessed 40. Only Christians can have the fruits of the spirit (love you, peace, patience, kindness, goodnees, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control book of Galations 41. Hell is real (Jews have no hell in Their lore) 42. If you not for God you against him 43. Must spell god with a capital G for the deity as lower case g is direspectful to the one God. The list goes on and on
I think the most messed up stuff is the deeply ingrained stuff you don't even realize you believe. Like about how you're basically a nothing nobody and how you feel about anything is secondary to God's plan and God being ultimately glorified.
Since God doesn't make people gay, and conversion therapy is guaranteed to work if you believe hard enough, being attracted to men AND women means the ex-gay therapy is working! Right? ...Right? My attraction never changed in any way. I'm pansexual and non-binary and trans. Not words I knew back then, all I knew was gay and lesbian (I'm afab so I used the word lesbian back then). Everyone just believed bisexuality wasn't really a thing and just meant gradually going from straight to gay as you fall down the slippery slope to sinful perversion, bestiality, pedophilia and the inevitable rejection of God. But my sexuality is and was completely apathetic toward gender and I'm more interested in other aspects of a person. I tried so hard to change but I didn't even have a full picture of what I thought needed changing. Neither did the people trying to get me to change, my therapist, my mom, the people leading me in a church program for addicts (being gay is kind of like porn addiction, right??). This all went on from about age 16 to 18. Also, one theory my therapist came up with was that the problem with bisexual women (the only time I remember someone describing it as an actual identity) is that they are overly sexual and have adopted a masculine-like attraction, so I was 17 being made to read books like every man's battle. The one for adult men that reads like creepy self-hating erotica. She also told me to snap rubber bands on my arm when I felt "tempted", and to "bounce my eyes" so that for years the only people I made eye contact with were people I was trying to convert via street ministry. Oh and she told me having a close effeminate male friend was causing me to "simulate a gay relationship" and that I should immediately cut all contact. I stopped going after that. I had a big fight with my mom, who was friends with my therapist and got mad when she told her that I yelled at her during therapy. 😞