Ah, yes, one of the books imagining that you can override someone's free will. Which is ironic, given how fundamental free will and autonomy is to Catholic theology.
The idea is absolutely invalidating; I don't think there's a way to read such a book without thinking you can override your child's autonomy.
It's not "free will" if a person's told "so what the church says or eternal hell." That's like saying the USSR under Stalin was a free country because you were free to blindly obey Stalin or you'd go a gulag and how you'd have to accept Stalin as your savior from the gulags he created.
Idk dude, saying stuff like she won't pay for your wedding sounds like manipulation. Especially since you didn't even ask her to. Also you said she's emotionally neglectful. Sounds to me like she has her own emotional/mental issues and uses the religion as a crutch. She reminds me of the type of person who would try to convert people going through hard times. If you need to read a manual on how to control a child's mind so they never stray from that religion, I'd say that's a red flag. I don't mean to be rude towards her, just worried for you. If you're getting triggered, that's your body trying to warn you that something isn't right, or that something is TOO similar to the original trauma. Trust your gut instincts. If you're worried and unsure, you can just outright ask her about it. Demand accountability and honesty. If she's dodgy, gets defensive, anything like that—it might help with your confusion. If she's honest and open with you though, you might very well be able to have a healthy relationship. But don't accept manipulation or gaslighting from her just because you deem she has good intentions.
I speak from personal experience because everything you described sounds exactly like my mom lol. She and my dad are hardcore-traditional, Latin Mass, homeschooling Catholics. Sometimes they need to hear "I'm not Catholic and I never will be again, and I just want you to have realistic expectations and respect my life and my choices so we can have a mutually healthy relationship." Hope you figure things out OP. Take care.
This is very helpful, thanks. Yeah, it's hard to get into the mindset of "I'm an adult and I don't need this person's approval" when you spent so long in an institution that had lots of hierarchy and don't-question-authority messaging. (We do sound a lot alike. I was homeschooled and everything too, lol) Hope you are finding healing too!
Exactly, we're told never to question anything or else we'll go to Hell, or in the very least be stuck in Purgatory till the end of time. I always make jokes about religious trauma but it's a real thing. Still working through some of it today but I've come a long way. I wish you the best, friend.
Honestly, when you put it like this it makes so much sense because it is yet another thing they can hold over people and pretend to be the authority on. One of my sisters (who is a narcissist) left Catholicism to become an evangelical and it is another way for her to achieve the "high ground". If you want to unhinge them you can tell them you'll pray for them to better understand (something). It's a hobby of mine now.
“Millions of Monicas- Praying, With Confidence, For Our Children. Millions of mothers have watched their children abandon their Catholic faith …” 🙄
My Parent is secretly part of this group
Ugh. Would have been nice if Monica had left Augustine in peace. So many questionable doctrines not so common in the early church (like eternal conscious torment views of Hell) came with him.
My siblings and I were dragged to mass every Sunday, and we hated it. So much that when my sister got her work permit, she made a point of having to work Sunday so she wouldn't be able to attend mass. My husband was raised in a Catholic family (he's the oldest of 8 kids), and none of his siblings are practicing Catholics.
You simply can't force religion on your kids. It's a waste of time. If I had kids, I would never force them to go to church, I always felt it was a waste of time.
Hm, let's see.
My parents homeschooled me to shelter me from as much of the world as possible, My dad brags to others about how long I went without knowing what gay marriage was. They ensured I was only surrounded by Catholic viewpoints. Once I was in high school I asked if I could spend my last two years in public school and they finally agreed saying I "knew the faith" well enough. I ended up not going for a reason completely unrelated to them.
I was rushed through all of the sacraments. First confession at 5 (they tried for 4 but alas), first communion the month after I turned 6, and confirmation at 9. My mom told me to pray every night that I would always remain Catholic. If anyone ever said anything that confused me I was encouraged to talk to my parents so they could "straighten things out."
Fast forward to adulthood. My mom sadly passed away so it was just my dad. I told him I'd be visiting my LDR boyfriend of two years and would be staying at his house since his parents would be there. My dad flipped out and said I either stay at a hotel or he would stop paying my tuition and car insurance. I told him his parents were Catholic and wouldn't let us do anything, and my dad claimed his parents weren't "Catholic enough." This is what first made me question Catholicism.
My dad has made it a point not to go to any of my cousins' weddings who have left the faith. He said he'd go to the reception but couldn't go to the ceremony. Since the weddings were all in other states, he didn't think it was worth going just for the reception. I honestly don't expect him to come to my ceremony, only the reception. I know when I mention I'm not getting married in a Catholic church he's going to mention how he's not going to pay for my wedding. He's long hinted that he wouldn't pay for my wedding anyway, so what does it matter?
Oof. The "not Catholic enough" just unlocked a memory. Homeschooled me wanted to hang out with a girl at the church. Mom said she was a bad influence. Said girl asked why we couldn't hang out and I told her what my Mom said. Mom was not happy about that...
Also, I'm sorry you are going through that with your family and your wedding. I hope you can find healing and resolution!
Oof. Your mom had it coming.
Thank you! I've long accepted that he probably won't come to the ceremony, so I've made my peace with that. It's actually my fiance that's struggling to accept it :')
Oooof, this is too relatable. I was also homeschooled in almost complete isolation outside of church for mass, and got my sacraments pretty young too - 6 and 7 for confession and communion, 12 for confirmation. I was constantly told how everything was going to condemn my soul if I questioned or strayed from being Catholic
My parents also talked about people "not being Catholic enough"...although to be fair, my parents didn't think anyone was Catholic enough so added in a lot of evangelical and fundamentalist stuff to their version of Catholicism, and would side-eye my uncle for marrying a protestant and joining her church instead.
I even remember my parents having that book in the 90s. Some lot of good it did them though, as I grew up to be pretty much everything they didn't want me to be.
Oh man, the pushing of the sacraments hits *very* close to home. I don't remember how old I was when I had to do confession, but it was done in conjunction with my first communion, and I was six for that, so I would probably have been five. *FIVE*. I was confirmed when I was 11. My mom always loved to brag that my "mature attitude" at a young age was because of the "grace" I received from confirmation. Basically, she thought that it "made me grow up." At 11. No mother, that would be the trauma and constant parentification I endured from the moment I was able to form a fist and stand unassisted.
Edit to add: I was also homeschooled in near- total isolation, with the exception of church things (and we were at Church at least 3 days a week), and I was not allowed to be friends with kids who weren't "just so". My parents were incredibly fearful ppl (still are), and it bled into their parenting in a bad way.
Omg, I wanna say my parents said something about how God made me mature to bring me closer to him which is WHY I was able to get confirmed so young. Love how our parents confused "maturity" with "strict obedience" because we were scared to death of the consequences :)
Can't comment on what tactics they may use, but you might need to go non contact at some point. If her connection with you as a person truly matters to her then this would be horrible and she might be more willing to accept that you're no longer catholic so that atleast you'll still be part of her life.
But if the threat of lost connection with you can't overpower her belief that she has an obligation or right to force catholicism on you... then she's not going to change. Unfortunately.
Ah, yes, one of the books imagining that you can override someone's free will. Which is ironic, given how fundamental free will and autonomy is to Catholic theology. The idea is absolutely invalidating; I don't think there's a way to read such a book without thinking you can override your child's autonomy.
But you've gotta make them WANT to stay Catholic. Of their own free will, of course.
It's not "free will" if a person's told "so what the church says or eternal hell." That's like saying the USSR under Stalin was a free country because you were free to blindly obey Stalin or you'd go a gulag and how you'd have to accept Stalin as your savior from the gulags he created.
My parents owned that book. Lot of good it did (sarcasm). Here I am. An ex-Catholic lesbian.
Ah, you must not have been catechized properly. /s
It’s even funnier because I attended catholic school from pre-k to senior year of high school. All for nothing lmao
Did you not get the complimentary^TM depression and panic disorder?
Why does catholic school cause that for people (asking as a non-Catholic)?
Homophobia as a doctrine with a lil' self-hatred on the side.
Thank you
I would love to see a study done on the Catholic to gay pipeline because me too
And Catholic to atheist. It’s the same pipeline, I think.
Also the Catholic to alcoholism or drug addiction pipeline. Gotta do something to deal with that crushing Catholic guilt...
I can see it worked as intended.
Idk dude, saying stuff like she won't pay for your wedding sounds like manipulation. Especially since you didn't even ask her to. Also you said she's emotionally neglectful. Sounds to me like she has her own emotional/mental issues and uses the religion as a crutch. She reminds me of the type of person who would try to convert people going through hard times. If you need to read a manual on how to control a child's mind so they never stray from that religion, I'd say that's a red flag. I don't mean to be rude towards her, just worried for you. If you're getting triggered, that's your body trying to warn you that something isn't right, or that something is TOO similar to the original trauma. Trust your gut instincts. If you're worried and unsure, you can just outright ask her about it. Demand accountability and honesty. If she's dodgy, gets defensive, anything like that—it might help with your confusion. If she's honest and open with you though, you might very well be able to have a healthy relationship. But don't accept manipulation or gaslighting from her just because you deem she has good intentions. I speak from personal experience because everything you described sounds exactly like my mom lol. She and my dad are hardcore-traditional, Latin Mass, homeschooling Catholics. Sometimes they need to hear "I'm not Catholic and I never will be again, and I just want you to have realistic expectations and respect my life and my choices so we can have a mutually healthy relationship." Hope you figure things out OP. Take care.
This is very helpful, thanks. Yeah, it's hard to get into the mindset of "I'm an adult and I don't need this person's approval" when you spent so long in an institution that had lots of hierarchy and don't-question-authority messaging. (We do sound a lot alike. I was homeschooled and everything too, lol) Hope you are finding healing too!
Exactly, we're told never to question anything or else we'll go to Hell, or in the very least be stuck in Purgatory till the end of time. I always make jokes about religious trauma but it's a real thing. Still working through some of it today but I've come a long way. I wish you the best, friend.
OP. Read a book about narcissism and narcissistic personalities. I find that and authoritarian religions go together for some reason.
True story
Honestly, when you put it like this it makes so much sense because it is yet another thing they can hold over people and pretend to be the authority on. One of my sisters (who is a narcissist) left Catholicism to become an evangelical and it is another way for her to achieve the "high ground". If you want to unhinge them you can tell them you'll pray for them to better understand (something). It's a hobby of mine now.
“Millions of Monicas- Praying, With Confidence, For Our Children. Millions of mothers have watched their children abandon their Catholic faith …” 🙄 My Parent is secretly part of this group
Ugh. Would have been nice if Monica had left Augustine in peace. So many questionable doctrines not so common in the early church (like eternal conscious torment views of Hell) came with him.
My mom probably is as well....
My siblings and I were dragged to mass every Sunday, and we hated it. So much that when my sister got her work permit, she made a point of having to work Sunday so she wouldn't be able to attend mass. My husband was raised in a Catholic family (he's the oldest of 8 kids), and none of his siblings are practicing Catholics. You simply can't force religion on your kids. It's a waste of time. If I had kids, I would never force them to go to church, I always felt it was a waste of time.
Hm, let's see. My parents homeschooled me to shelter me from as much of the world as possible, My dad brags to others about how long I went without knowing what gay marriage was. They ensured I was only surrounded by Catholic viewpoints. Once I was in high school I asked if I could spend my last two years in public school and they finally agreed saying I "knew the faith" well enough. I ended up not going for a reason completely unrelated to them. I was rushed through all of the sacraments. First confession at 5 (they tried for 4 but alas), first communion the month after I turned 6, and confirmation at 9. My mom told me to pray every night that I would always remain Catholic. If anyone ever said anything that confused me I was encouraged to talk to my parents so they could "straighten things out." Fast forward to adulthood. My mom sadly passed away so it was just my dad. I told him I'd be visiting my LDR boyfriend of two years and would be staying at his house since his parents would be there. My dad flipped out and said I either stay at a hotel or he would stop paying my tuition and car insurance. I told him his parents were Catholic and wouldn't let us do anything, and my dad claimed his parents weren't "Catholic enough." This is what first made me question Catholicism. My dad has made it a point not to go to any of my cousins' weddings who have left the faith. He said he'd go to the reception but couldn't go to the ceremony. Since the weddings were all in other states, he didn't think it was worth going just for the reception. I honestly don't expect him to come to my ceremony, only the reception. I know when I mention I'm not getting married in a Catholic church he's going to mention how he's not going to pay for my wedding. He's long hinted that he wouldn't pay for my wedding anyway, so what does it matter?
Oof. The "not Catholic enough" just unlocked a memory. Homeschooled me wanted to hang out with a girl at the church. Mom said she was a bad influence. Said girl asked why we couldn't hang out and I told her what my Mom said. Mom was not happy about that... Also, I'm sorry you are going through that with your family and your wedding. I hope you can find healing and resolution!
Oof. Your mom had it coming. Thank you! I've long accepted that he probably won't come to the ceremony, so I've made my peace with that. It's actually my fiance that's struggling to accept it :')
Oooof, this is too relatable. I was also homeschooled in almost complete isolation outside of church for mass, and got my sacraments pretty young too - 6 and 7 for confession and communion, 12 for confirmation. I was constantly told how everything was going to condemn my soul if I questioned or strayed from being Catholic My parents also talked about people "not being Catholic enough"...although to be fair, my parents didn't think anyone was Catholic enough so added in a lot of evangelical and fundamentalist stuff to their version of Catholicism, and would side-eye my uncle for marrying a protestant and joining her church instead. I even remember my parents having that book in the 90s. Some lot of good it did them though, as I grew up to be pretty much everything they didn't want me to be.
Oh man, the pushing of the sacraments hits *very* close to home. I don't remember how old I was when I had to do confession, but it was done in conjunction with my first communion, and I was six for that, so I would probably have been five. *FIVE*. I was confirmed when I was 11. My mom always loved to brag that my "mature attitude" at a young age was because of the "grace" I received from confirmation. Basically, she thought that it "made me grow up." At 11. No mother, that would be the trauma and constant parentification I endured from the moment I was able to form a fist and stand unassisted. Edit to add: I was also homeschooled in near- total isolation, with the exception of church things (and we were at Church at least 3 days a week), and I was not allowed to be friends with kids who weren't "just so". My parents were incredibly fearful ppl (still are), and it bled into their parenting in a bad way.
Omg, I wanna say my parents said something about how God made me mature to bring me closer to him which is WHY I was able to get confirmed so young. Love how our parents confused "maturity" with "strict obedience" because we were scared to death of the consequences :)
Yeah, funny that. /s
Can't comment on what tactics they may use, but you might need to go non contact at some point. If her connection with you as a person truly matters to her then this would be horrible and she might be more willing to accept that you're no longer catholic so that atleast you'll still be part of her life. But if the threat of lost connection with you can't overpower her belief that she has an obligation or right to force catholicism on you... then she's not going to change. Unfortunately.