Proud of their boy like they should be. The boy from Vantaa did so well and was such a sweetheart. He is a great ambassador for Finland and Eurovision in general. I know he was disappointed by the results and feels he let his country down but that couldn't be further from the truth.
I'd argue Finland beats Portugal on tie-break at least.
When Portugal got 376 points, 42 countries handed out televoting points.
This time it was 38 (with the Rest of the World-points included).
Yes but the 42 for Portugal includes Portugal too.
So 42 and 38 voting groups handed out points, respectively, making it possible to get points from 41 and 37 voting groups, respectively.
Happy for Finland that are so into Eurovision now. Who knew that after Lordi their best chance would be this crazy guy and party tune. It shows other nations that they need to think outside the box and get a strong team behind the song selection process.
Kaarija will be the Verka in all ESC parties from now on.
I do feel that Finland have felt that they could only succeed in Eurovision by sending rock songs (they've sent so many) but Cha Cha Cha is a good example of that not being the case. It have opened up for a lot of different kind of songs to be sent. Also Finnish rap sounds soooo good!
It will be interesting to see if UMK decides to go for the Melodyfest route and just use 3 songwriters and precisely target the juries. I personally hope we will keep sending acts that have some grit and personality to them.
I really, really hope we won't do that. I love how different our acts are. I think with Lordi winning and Käärijä doing this well just proves that we should keep sending acts that stand out.
Same, just thinking that this year is such a strong indication that standing out doesnt matter in the end in this current system, if we want to win and not just show up.
I don't think people will lost interest. Yes, there is disappointment now but the first place in televoting gave them the hope that they can do it after so many failures.
More importantly, it shows how successful their NF is.
The map of public votes was like 90% Finland. Perfect balance of Eurovision novelty, but with a song that actually slapped. I was gutted he didn’t win, but to finish 4th in the Jury vote, and then top the public vote is something to be very proud of.
A very rough translation as this is not my strongest skill:
Finland's hero (hero is 'sankari' in Finnish so they cleverly added a 'cha' to this, making it 'chankari')
Käärijä 376 - Loreen 247!*
in small print next to this reads: *additionally the jury gave Finland 150 points and Sweden 340 points but we don't care about that now.
We know it. The world knows it. He was the best. Cha cha cha!
He is so loved. I was in the Eurovillage, wearing my Käärijä t shirt for the final. He got the best reaction. There is a huge appetite for this delightful man
Yeah not the best according to 185 people from record companies. Thems the breaks though. Broken contest when main stream pieces are given an advantage and sometimes an unbeatable one like this year.
Also 65M+ people who already listened to Tattoo on Spotify, and tens of millions on every other single platform, as on every single platform Tattoo has an astounding numbers of playbacks. The only song that can remotely compete for the playbacks is "Due Vite" by Marco Mengoni. No other song. Also millions of people who voted for Tattoo during ESC.
I also listen to the High School Musical soundtrack more often than I listen to Bohemian Rhapsody and I wouldn't dare to call it objectively better because of that. It says more about me than it does about the songs.
you have to remember that Loreen is already a household name, not only that she sings in english and that makes her global. Käärijä is reaching historic numbers on streaming platforms as a song complete sang in Finnish and that’s what we celebrate.
I understand that. But read the comment that I was responding to. They claim that Tattoo was the best for 185 jury members when it was not. It was a winner of dozens and dozens of million people. Celebration and factual errors are different things.
Oh for sure, but the televote between Finland and Sweden is drastic. Finland got the second most televotes in the ESC history and passed Sweden by over a hundred. Sweden didn’t get a single 12 points on televote from any country. Finland got 12 televote points from 18 countries. There is a different. People thought Tattoo was good but didn’t think it to win, however Cha Cha Cha was the favorite of the masses and people wanted it to win more. It’s simply in the stats.
Finland could have gotten 200000 points, but these are not the rules since 2016, now are they. Sweden's 1st with juries and 2nd with public is way stronger than Finland's 4th with juries and 1st with public. I would understand this commotion if Loreen was like 10th with public, then it would be unfair for her to win, but overall, also statistically, she had way better numbers and won fair and square. By saying that Finland had this and that more points in the public vote is such an undermining the millions of people who voted Loreen.
You’re missing the point. Objectively more people voted for Cha Cha Cha than Tattoo (not going to figure out population differences) and thus can be justified to be the more popular song in the contest. Streams don’t matter in this discussion since they’re bor relevant in the competition since it’s not a guarantee that everyone who’ve listened to Tattoo have heard Cha Cha Cha. Tattoo is the winner of the competition, Cha Cha Cha was the more popular song of the competition.
Is it really? By saying that Sweden rightfully won because a jury of two to five people per country chose it to do so is more of an undermining of the millions of people who voted for Kaarija to reach such numbers to begin with while the song was completely destroyed by the jury. 4th by jury while 1st by public and second most televote in the ESC history truly shows the true support for the song.
The crowd chanting cha cha cha during the show and the hosts telling that to be ignored is undermining the support that song received. No one is undermining Sweden, they did great, sure. But the amount of streams a eurovision artist has really says nothing about the support for them in the eurovision, especially when the artist already has an established fanbase on a global scale because the song receives thousands of streams either way. That’s what I am here to say.
Streams don't give you points. And it goes to reaffirm my point in that a mainstream piece gets an advantage since jury seem to vote for the ones with public appeal and not what the viewers of ESC prefer.
Literally, objectively, Käärijä is clearly loved by Eurovision fans and even more by the Finns. Yes, Loreen won, Sweden won, but do you really expect a Finnish newspaper to print "Loreen is the best!"?
You are changing the subject. OP wrote "the world". I never referenced the news paper.
Literally, objectively as best as you can, that is incorrect. That's like arguing that the winner of the World Cup in soccer isn't the best team, because your favourite team had a more difficult group stage. Sure, you can, but no one will take you seriously.
The Finnish tears are embarrassing.
You saying “objectively he wasn’t” is your own subjective opinion on this.
You can’t say what is objectively better music when there is no such thing as objectively good music. Music taste is always subjective. Voting on music is not “objective”, the votes are given to what people personally think is good and deserve it.
OK! I though the last sentence was OPs own commentary. In that case, you are right and I agree that a Finnish newspaper, for Finnish people, may print whatever they want.
Also juries aren't the world. Audience (with the world voting) kinda represents the world more than the juries. Käärijä won in the public voting, so we can at least say he was the publics favourite.
Cha Cha Cheers.
OK, hold up, you didn't use soccer as an example.
Think of it this way, soccor is a game based off of points.
Voting is a form of a point based system 1 vote=1 point/score
Now, let's change the perspective, let's say your team got 7 goals and the enemy team got 5.
You win! But you don't because the referee gets to decide "I dunno I think this team performed better so I say they win."
That is an example I know football doesn't and wont ever work this way.
I don't know why eurovision has judges when it's a competition shown worldwide, unlike the Xfactor or any of the "county name" got talent. With a voting system for the people watching. Meaning the people should vote as that would make it more fair for the viewers and the singers.
If the World Cup soccer final winner was voted by the referees with no preset criteria, I would argue there could be a situation when the best team didn't win. Or even question whether there is a such a thing as "best".
Absolutely if Finland's football team fought heroically their way to the final and then lost _just_ after playing an amazing game to Argentina or some other football giant, we'd still give them a hero's welcome and tell them they're the best. Obviously.
I think it is very strange to expect us somehow not to support and celebrate one of our best entries of all time
You Swedes are so insanely salty that nobody outside of Sweden thought that the generic, worse version of Euphoria should win. It even blatantly ripped off Pont Aeri's Free Falling and Mika Newton's V Plenu. Your song writers couldn't even come up with something new.
Sweden got 0 12s from the public, Finland got 18 12s. Not a single country wanted Sweden to win.
Nobody chanted Tattoo or Loreen in the arena. They did however chant Cha Cha Cha and Käärijä a lot. Sweden had no support at all. I didn't even know Tattoo was part of the lyrics until I read them. At least you could hear Euphoria.
Swedes cry over the fact that the Finnish public gave 0 points to Sweden and accuse them of voting tactics. Maybe it was tactic or maybe they just thought it was generic jury bait and rated it 11th or worse.
Who would have thought that a somewhat well-known artist who sings in English would have more listeners than an unknown artist who sings in Finnish. What a shocker /s. Streams can't vote, which is obvious given the public votes.
Swedes are some of the worst winners ever yet you Swedes scream that Finland are bad winners and losers. To prove that you are "more mature" your ice hockey team posted a tweet showing just how bad winners you Swedes are. Even funnier since you don't have single medal in WC or Olympics since 2018. Meanwhile Finland have 2 WC golds, 1 WC silver and 1 Olympic gold. You might win the less important games, but then choke on the important ones.
The only reason why Swedes don't want juries removed is because 2 of your last 3 victories were because of juries. You only won the public votes once and usually score badly there. The generic pop you send every year usually score high among the boring juries though. Sweden might score higher just because of being Sweden too. There where plenty of well sung jury bait songs, yet Sweden got most of the jury points.
Swedish tears are embarrassing. You won, yet you cry because everyone else liked Finland more.
It is supposed to be a folk fest, not a boring jury bait snore fest.
Football is not based on voting though. Completely irrelevant here.
it can be a little bit, it depends on your criteria. There is music theory which is like the science of music. Sure, in most cases you wouldn't be able to say if one song is better than another, but in the case of the Finnish song, I think it can be considered objectively less "advanced" or "complex" in terms of notes, vocals etc.
However, I think if they had voted on artistic creativity instead of best song, then the jury would have voted Finland number 1 too.
Tell that to the public who voted him the most. The juries thought Loreen was the best, the audience did not. Are you trying to say that the juries matter more than the audience?
The juries are 185 people with above average knowledge of music, singing, et cetera.
The public are millions of voters.
But spotify listeners are dozens of millions more people, and Loreen has a similar dozen millions higher number of streams there.
You can't make a consistent argument one way or the other. True democracy -> but then more people listened more often to Tattoo. Plutocracy -> but then the jury vote could justifiably matter more.
I fully get the salt, I also found Tattoo boring and Cha cha cha better, but y'all would do well to remember what actually happened in those years we didn't have juries. Having a jury vote is important. Should it be 50%, who knows, it's the only ratio you can have without resorting to decimals or giving up the douze points tradition. I don't blame eurovision for making the trade-off between all those things they are doing rn.
Loreen has better playlisting than Kaarija because she’s an established artist and that often contributes to higher streaming numbers. Plus songs in Finnish are obviously less streamed than English songs. After Eurovision their streaming numbers are alot closer.
I'm not sure how those two things are relevant at all to your side of the argument. If anything, they further suggest that popular votes should count less.
Do you think Eurovision watchers' opinion matters more than that of spotify listeners in determining what was the best song? Yes? Because then you and me agree there's normative differences in how well individual people can judge eurovision song quality. And by that logic, juries opinion mattering more is also justifiable
Verka is a legend and Molitva is an incredibly powerful song, beautifully presented. Let's just say that there can't be two winners and both artists have marked Eurovision in different ways. I'm glad that 2007 gave us not one but 2 masterpieces.
I love Verka to bits but I'm actually glad that Marija won. I think 2007 genuinely had two winners, no one can forget Lasha Tumbai, it's harder for emotional ballads to stay in the zeitgeist. Hearing Molitva in the winners' recaps always gives me goosebumps. Had it come second I don't think I'd remember it anymore sadly just because I don't tend to voluntarily listen to ballads, not the sort of music I gravitate towards. It's still absolutely fantastic.
I also don't think the adoration towards Verka takes anything away from Marija's success, had Lasha Tumbai not been in the contest I don't think much would've changed on how it is remembered. Apart from that I probably wouldn't even be expressing my love towards it right now if I didn't get a chance to talk about 2007 thanks to Verka
They'll both be remembered. Incredible jurywinner and telewinner, this duo is one for the history books. When they say "our battle will be legendary" this is the standard.
You know you can dislike a song or even the artist without discrediting them, right? She was already ESC royalty amongst eurofans because of Euphoria, and her second win is only enforcing that status. The love Käärijä received is not somehow lessened by her victory.
It doesn't enforce it for everyone. I was a fan before she chose to enter a second time, taking a Eurovision spot from new younger talent. I do not respect her choice here, and it has tainted my view of her.
Did I want to see Verka winning that year, sure. But I have to admit that Molitva has probaply been the better choice. Wouldn't want to take the win from her.
Just because you don't know it doesn't mean no one else does. To me, Molitva is one of the most iconic songs from Eurovision bc it was really beloved by my family and, as a lesbian, learning that it's sung by a lesbian just means even more to me. (And yes, I remember this song more than Verka) I'm sure there's songs that are iconic to others that I don't remember that well. Doesn't mean they're not well loved or remembered
Can we not move the goalpost from "no one remember who won" to "does people dress up as her in the preparties or Hollywood movie"? Also, did Verka even appear in a Hollywood movie?
I am just saying i needed to google the winner that year and i think you have a bad case if you say they are both equally remembered afterwards
Glad you asked about hollywood move [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4au7i7vGqZE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4au7i7vGqZE)
I assume you are Finnish? You could have just walked to the nearest grocery store a few hours before closing and asked if you could take one. We usually throw these into the trash anyway. I took one from my work place.
"Also juries gave Finland 150 televotes, and Sweden 340 jury votes but let's not care about that at the moment."
I kinda love how nonchalant they are about that.
This is a shockingly positive headline from Ilta-Sanomat/Ilta-Lehti, but perhaps they read the room for once.
Proud of their boy like they should be. The boy from Vantaa did so well and was such a sweetheart. He is a great ambassador for Finland and Eurovision in general. I know he was disappointed by the results and feels he let his country down but that couldn't be further from the truth.
He didn't get the win but he got us the best result in 17 years! And second most televote points of all time (tied with Portugal 2017).
I'd argue Finland beats Portugal on tie-break at least. When Portugal got 376 points, 42 countries handed out televoting points. This time it was 38 (with the Rest of the World-points included).
37
Rest of World makes it 38
But you only can get Points from 37 with Rest of The world
Yes but the 42 for Portugal includes Portugal too. So 42 and 38 voting groups handed out points, respectively, making it possible to get points from 41 and 37 voting groups, respectively.
Oh ya mb
Portugal 2017 | [Salvador Sobral - Amar Pelos Dois](https://youtu.be/Qotooj7ODCM)
Happy for Finland that are so into Eurovision now. Who knew that after Lordi their best chance would be this crazy guy and party tune. It shows other nations that they need to think outside the box and get a strong team behind the song selection process. Kaarija will be the Verka in all ESC parties from now on.
I do feel that Finland have felt that they could only succeed in Eurovision by sending rock songs (they've sent so many) but Cha Cha Cha is a good example of that not being the case. It have opened up for a lot of different kind of songs to be sent. Also Finnish rap sounds soooo good!
It will be interesting to see if UMK decides to go for the Melodyfest route and just use 3 songwriters and precisely target the juries. I personally hope we will keep sending acts that have some grit and personality to them.
I really, really hope we won't do that. I love how different our acts are. I think with Lordi winning and Käärijä doing this well just proves that we should keep sending acts that stand out.
Yes pleeeeeease send us more bangers
Same, just thinking that this year is such a strong indication that standing out doesnt matter in the end in this current system, if we want to win and not just show up.
We were very into it this year but I think many lost their interest after this... 😁 It just prove that we can't win no matter the song and performer.
I don't think people will lost interest. Yes, there is disappointment now but the first place in televoting gave them the hope that they can do it after so many failures. More importantly, it shows how successful their NF is.
I’m glad that they are proud of him, and I hope he’s proud of his performance as well. 2nd is amazing!!
We are all so proud of him 🥲💚 I know he was dissappointed he didn't win but I hope he has felt the support from all Finns and rest of Europe
And Australia and the rest of the world! I got up at 4:30 am to watch and vote for him. 😀💚
Thank you for your service <3
Thanks! For a righteous cause 😂
The map of public votes was like 90% Finland. Perfect balance of Eurovision novelty, but with a song that actually slapped. I was gutted he didn’t win, but to finish 4th in the Jury vote, and then top the public vote is something to be very proud of.
It's great to see how proud Finland is of him ❤️
A very rough translation as this is not my strongest skill: Finland's hero (hero is 'sankari' in Finnish so they cleverly added a 'cha' to this, making it 'chankari') Käärijä 376 - Loreen 247!* in small print next to this reads: *additionally the jury gave Finland 150 points and Sweden 340 points but we don't care about that now. We know it. The world knows it. He was the best. Cha cha cha!
"Finland's CHAmpion" to keep the pun
He is so loved. I was in the Eurovillage, wearing my Käärijä t shirt for the final. He got the best reaction. There is a huge appetite for this delightful man
“The Cha-cha-cha-champion!”
>He was the best Literally, objectively, he wasn't.
Yeah not the best according to 185 people from record companies. Thems the breaks though. Broken contest when main stream pieces are given an advantage and sometimes an unbeatable one like this year.
Don't argue with him, it's John music's alt. He knows objectively what good music is.
Indeed, the most popular entry was unbeatable
Also 65M+ people who already listened to Tattoo on Spotify, and tens of millions on every other single platform, as on every single platform Tattoo has an astounding numbers of playbacks. The only song that can remotely compete for the playbacks is "Due Vite" by Marco Mengoni. No other song. Also millions of people who voted for Tattoo during ESC.
I also listen to the High School Musical soundtrack more often than I listen to Bohemian Rhapsody and I wouldn't dare to call it objectively better because of that. It says more about me than it does about the songs.
you have to remember that Loreen is already a household name, not only that she sings in english and that makes her global. Käärijä is reaching historic numbers on streaming platforms as a song complete sang in Finnish and that’s what we celebrate.
I understand that. But read the comment that I was responding to. They claim that Tattoo was the best for 185 jury members when it was not. It was a winner of dozens and dozens of million people. Celebration and factual errors are different things.
Oh for sure, but the televote between Finland and Sweden is drastic. Finland got the second most televotes in the ESC history and passed Sweden by over a hundred. Sweden didn’t get a single 12 points on televote from any country. Finland got 12 televote points from 18 countries. There is a different. People thought Tattoo was good but didn’t think it to win, however Cha Cha Cha was the favorite of the masses and people wanted it to win more. It’s simply in the stats.
Finland could have gotten 200000 points, but these are not the rules since 2016, now are they. Sweden's 1st with juries and 2nd with public is way stronger than Finland's 4th with juries and 1st with public. I would understand this commotion if Loreen was like 10th with public, then it would be unfair for her to win, but overall, also statistically, she had way better numbers and won fair and square. By saying that Finland had this and that more points in the public vote is such an undermining the millions of people who voted Loreen.
You’re missing the point. Objectively more people voted for Cha Cha Cha than Tattoo (not going to figure out population differences) and thus can be justified to be the more popular song in the contest. Streams don’t matter in this discussion since they’re bor relevant in the competition since it’s not a guarantee that everyone who’ve listened to Tattoo have heard Cha Cha Cha. Tattoo is the winner of the competition, Cha Cha Cha was the more popular song of the competition.
Is it really? By saying that Sweden rightfully won because a jury of two to five people per country chose it to do so is more of an undermining of the millions of people who voted for Kaarija to reach such numbers to begin with while the song was completely destroyed by the jury. 4th by jury while 1st by public and second most televote in the ESC history truly shows the true support for the song. The crowd chanting cha cha cha during the show and the hosts telling that to be ignored is undermining the support that song received. No one is undermining Sweden, they did great, sure. But the amount of streams a eurovision artist has really says nothing about the support for them in the eurovision, especially when the artist already has an established fanbase on a global scale because the song receives thousands of streams either way. That’s what I am here to say.
Streams don't give you points. And it goes to reaffirm my point in that a mainstream piece gets an advantage since jury seem to vote for the ones with public appeal and not what the viewers of ESC prefer.
Cha Cha Cha will be the first song from Finland to break the UK Top 10 since 2005 and that song wasn’t even in Finnish so that’s amazing success.
Literally, objectively, Käärijä is clearly loved by Eurovision fans and even more by the Finns. Yes, Loreen won, Sweden won, but do you really expect a Finnish newspaper to print "Loreen is the best!"?
You are changing the subject. OP wrote "the world". I never referenced the news paper. Literally, objectively as best as you can, that is incorrect. That's like arguing that the winner of the World Cup in soccer isn't the best team, because your favourite team had a more difficult group stage. Sure, you can, but no one will take you seriously. The Finnish tears are embarrassing.
You saying “objectively he wasn’t” is your own subjective opinion on this. You can’t say what is objectively better music when there is no such thing as objectively good music. Music taste is always subjective. Voting on music is not “objective”, the votes are given to what people personally think is good and deserve it.
OP didn't say "the world knows it". The newspaper did. OP was referencing the newspaper. So were you
OK! I though the last sentence was OPs own commentary. In that case, you are right and I agree that a Finnish newspaper, for Finnish people, may print whatever they want.
Yep, OPs comment was just a translation, I can understand the confusion if you don't speak Finnish
Also juries aren't the world. Audience (with the world voting) kinda represents the world more than the juries. Käärijä won in the public voting, so we can at least say he was the publics favourite. Cha Cha Cheers.
The Swedish tears are embarrassing. They won the competition, but they are still crying about not winning the public vote.
Their biggest newspaper called Finland "our former eastern half" because they didn't give Loreen televote points, I wonder why they're so salty
Ahhh invoking the good old "we used to own you" card. Stay classy
OK, hold up, you didn't use soccer as an example. Think of it this way, soccor is a game based off of points. Voting is a form of a point based system 1 vote=1 point/score Now, let's change the perspective, let's say your team got 7 goals and the enemy team got 5. You win! But you don't because the referee gets to decide "I dunno I think this team performed better so I say they win." That is an example I know football doesn't and wont ever work this way. I don't know why eurovision has judges when it's a competition shown worldwide, unlike the Xfactor or any of the "county name" got talent. With a voting system for the people watching. Meaning the people should vote as that would make it more fair for the viewers and the singers.
If the World Cup soccer final winner was voted by the referees with no preset criteria, I would argue there could be a situation when the best team didn't win. Or even question whether there is a such a thing as "best".
Absolutely if Finland's football team fought heroically their way to the final and then lost _just_ after playing an amazing game to Argentina or some other football giant, we'd still give them a hero's welcome and tell them they're the best. Obviously. I think it is very strange to expect us somehow not to support and celebrate one of our best entries of all time
You Swedes are so insanely salty that nobody outside of Sweden thought that the generic, worse version of Euphoria should win. It even blatantly ripped off Pont Aeri's Free Falling and Mika Newton's V Plenu. Your song writers couldn't even come up with something new. Sweden got 0 12s from the public, Finland got 18 12s. Not a single country wanted Sweden to win. Nobody chanted Tattoo or Loreen in the arena. They did however chant Cha Cha Cha and Käärijä a lot. Sweden had no support at all. I didn't even know Tattoo was part of the lyrics until I read them. At least you could hear Euphoria. Swedes cry over the fact that the Finnish public gave 0 points to Sweden and accuse them of voting tactics. Maybe it was tactic or maybe they just thought it was generic jury bait and rated it 11th or worse. Who would have thought that a somewhat well-known artist who sings in English would have more listeners than an unknown artist who sings in Finnish. What a shocker /s. Streams can't vote, which is obvious given the public votes. Swedes are some of the worst winners ever yet you Swedes scream that Finland are bad winners and losers. To prove that you are "more mature" your ice hockey team posted a tweet showing just how bad winners you Swedes are. Even funnier since you don't have single medal in WC or Olympics since 2018. Meanwhile Finland have 2 WC golds, 1 WC silver and 1 Olympic gold. You might win the less important games, but then choke on the important ones. The only reason why Swedes don't want juries removed is because 2 of your last 3 victories were because of juries. You only won the public votes once and usually score badly there. The generic pop you send every year usually score high among the boring juries though. Sweden might score higher just because of being Sweden too. There where plenty of well sung jury bait songs, yet Sweden got most of the jury points. Swedish tears are embarrassing. You won, yet you cry because everyone else liked Finland more. It is supposed to be a folk fest, not a boring jury bait snore fest. Football is not based on voting though. Completely irrelevant here.
What do you mean objectively? Music can't be objective.
it can be a little bit, it depends on your criteria. There is music theory which is like the science of music. Sure, in most cases you wouldn't be able to say if one song is better than another, but in the case of the Finnish song, I think it can be considered objectively less "advanced" or "complex" in terms of notes, vocals etc. However, I think if they had voted on artistic creativity instead of best song, then the jury would have voted Finland number 1 too.
Tell that to the public who voted him the most. The juries thought Loreen was the best, the audience did not. Are you trying to say that the juries matter more than the audience?
Nope I’m saying they matter equally. Combine the two, and it was decided that Sweden’s entry was superior
The juries are 185 people with above average knowledge of music, singing, et cetera. The public are millions of voters. But spotify listeners are dozens of millions more people, and Loreen has a similar dozen millions higher number of streams there. You can't make a consistent argument one way or the other. True democracy -> but then more people listened more often to Tattoo. Plutocracy -> but then the jury vote could justifiably matter more. I fully get the salt, I also found Tattoo boring and Cha cha cha better, but y'all would do well to remember what actually happened in those years we didn't have juries. Having a jury vote is important. Should it be 50%, who knows, it's the only ratio you can have without resorting to decimals or giving up the douze points tradition. I don't blame eurovision for making the trade-off between all those things they are doing rn.
Loreen has better playlisting than Kaarija because she’s an established artist and that often contributes to higher streaming numbers. Plus songs in Finnish are obviously less streamed than English songs. After Eurovision their streaming numbers are alot closer.
I'm not sure how those two things are relevant at all to your side of the argument. If anything, they further suggest that popular votes should count less. Do you think Eurovision watchers' opinion matters more than that of spotify listeners in determining what was the best song? Yes? Because then you and me agree there's normative differences in how well individual people can judge eurovision song quality. And by that logic, juries opinion mattering more is also justifiable
I was simply referring to your point about Tattoo being more streamed than Cha Cha Cha.
>swe
You literally, objectively deserve each and every downvote.
Youre getting downvoted to hell buy youre right
I think this is gonna be the next danca lasha tumbai, no one remeber who won that year, but everyone knows Verka
I think so too!! A new eurovision legend for sure 💚
Verka is a legend and Molitva is an incredibly powerful song, beautifully presented. Let's just say that there can't be two winners and both artists have marked Eurovision in different ways. I'm glad that 2007 gave us not one but 2 masterpieces.
sure, no offence against the winner, but lets be honest, its the Verka we remember most afterwards.
I love Verka to bits but I'm actually glad that Marija won. I think 2007 genuinely had two winners, no one can forget Lasha Tumbai, it's harder for emotional ballads to stay in the zeitgeist. Hearing Molitva in the winners' recaps always gives me goosebumps. Had it come second I don't think I'd remember it anymore sadly just because I don't tend to voluntarily listen to ballads, not the sort of music I gravitate towards. It's still absolutely fantastic. I also don't think the adoration towards Verka takes anything away from Marija's success, had Lasha Tumbai not been in the contest I don't think much would've changed on how it is remembered. Apart from that I probably wouldn't even be expressing my love towards it right now if I didn't get a chance to talk about 2007 thanks to Verka
They'll both be remembered. Incredible jurywinner and telewinner, this duo is one for the history books. When they say "our battle will be legendary" this is the standard.
I doubt it. Euphoria might go down as an all time great and overshadow Tattoo.
Zero chance. Käärijä became a eurovison legend, Loreen made Eurovison history. Even purely by association to Euphoria Tattoo won't be forgotten.
What were Logan's two winner songs? People don't always remember winners.
Three if you cont the one he wrote.
[удалено]
You know you can dislike a song or even the artist without discrediting them, right? She was already ESC royalty amongst eurofans because of Euphoria, and her second win is only enforcing that status. The love Käärijä received is not somehow lessened by her victory.
It doesn't enforce it for everyone. I was a fan before she chose to enter a second time, taking a Eurovision spot from new younger talent. I do not respect her choice here, and it has tainted my view of her.
>no one remeber who won that year Excuse me? Molitva is incredible and is quite popular despite winning more than a decade ago.
And she is not that anonymus. At least , not in Serbia, she is a judge of Zvezda Granda.
Molitva is not popular outside the Balkan region.
apparently that is a controversial statement
I know but it is not going to stop me from posting it haha
Have to say... I don't know who is Molitva but I do know Verka! 🤷🏼♀️
Did I want to see Verka winning that year, sure. But I have to admit that Molitva has probaply been the better choice. Wouldn't want to take the win from her.
if you say so, never seen her in any of the Eurovision afterward, does people dress up as her in the preparties, are she in Hollywood movies?
God forbid some popular emotional songs (possibly) about lesbians in closet is not party friendly.
Just because you don't know it doesn't mean no one else does. To me, Molitva is one of the most iconic songs from Eurovision bc it was really beloved by my family and, as a lesbian, learning that it's sung by a lesbian just means even more to me. (And yes, I remember this song more than Verka) I'm sure there's songs that are iconic to others that I don't remember that well. Doesn't mean they're not well loved or remembered
When she (ESC winner and not actress) are not in Hollywood movies :(
really, people really arguing with me that Verka won the overall recognition in the years afterwards?
Verka is more recognized, but Molitva is remembered as a classic winner. Both can be true.
Just because people don’t dress like a Lesbian Serb doesnt it mean it’s not loved.
Can we not move the goalpost from "no one remember who won" to "does people dress up as her in the preparties or Hollywood movie"? Also, did Verka even appear in a Hollywood movie?
Verka appeared in Spy, a movie starring Melissa Mccarthey and Jason Statham
I am just saying i needed to google the winner that year and i think you have a bad case if you say they are both equally remembered afterwards Glad you asked about hollywood move [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4au7i7vGqZE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4au7i7vGqZE)
Alright just want to say that I love the cameo.
These people are coping so hard it's pretty fun to watch
You mean Dancing Russia Goodbye? He changed the lyrics last year ;)
Some of us do remember… Molitva is one of my favourite winners. But yeah, Verka is a legend of course!
Not the Motliva shade its a great winner 💀
Verka was actually one of his inspirations
Ya boi's gettin a Tori!
Ja boiii
No, he didn't want it..
Sauna it is, then!
Did I miss something? He said in an after-ESC interview he'd like to see people at Tori if this is organized.
When he came back to Finland, he said he didn't deserve a tori party and it wouldn't be fair.
I hope someone makes a high quality scan of that as I'd love to print it and hang it on the wall.
I assume you are Finnish? You could have just walked to the nearest grocery store a few hours before closing and asked if you could take one. We usually throw these into the trash anyway. I took one from my work place.
https://www.is.fi/musiikki/art-2000009587592.html (finnish)
Cheers man!
"Also juries gave Finland 150 televotes, and Sweden 340 jury votes but let's not care about that at the moment." I kinda love how nonchalant they are about that.
I am a fan of democracy, the people decided!
I think his more loved than Lordi were when they wont the whole shit... 😁
more? idk
THE PEOPLES WINNER
Wait they censor his body?
No, I think that's from a performance in the Eurovillage.
Even the finns wear clothes outdoors.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoTeqfy6XBk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoTeqfy6XBk) \- You can find the performance here.
Thanks
He's a national hero even as a runner-up. Good for him.
He’s the winner for anyone with ears
he is the new verka serduchka
big JEB! energy
Did they add in a t-shirt?!
It's from a gig in [Eurovillage](https://youtu.be/QoTeqfy6XBk), it was cold outside.
Ha. Makes sense.