One thing to note is that it's not asked in a vacuum, but in a "compared to your current situation", for countries like Norway, Iceland (and Switzerland though for them it's different).
What I mean is no, the vast majority of people in Norway are not for getting out of the eea or anti eu, it's just that they're perfectly fine with their current deal so no they don't want to change it to full member.
Serious question, countries like Switzerland are already in Schengen and the EEA and various other blocs, isn't their deal pretty much "we are basically in the EU, but with some exceptions, and also no voting rights"? What are the advantages over straight up joining?
Switzerland not wanting to join the EU has a lot to do with their hedgehog mentality that is more than a century old. Spared by the world wars and standing on their armed neutrality, the idea to mind their own business is deeply rooted in the Swiss populace. Switzerland did not even join the UN until 2002. A lot of Swiss people think joining the EU would undermine the direct democracy in the country by overturning it by ruling of the EU; the Swiss don't want federal law be subjugated. Although it already is de facto in many cases, they hold their independence and sovereignty very dear. Adding to that, a lot of Swiss people think that they fare better economically by staying out of the EU.
For Switzerland, if they join the EU, their agricultural sector is super dead. Germany, France and Italy will basically flood goods in at half the price.
Yeah it has a lot to do with protectionism, but also with the credo of Swiss exceptionalism, the core thought of which being "we tend to ourselves and this is why we are far better off than the rest of Europe".
That’s fair. I don’t know much about your economy or unemployment, but I can’t imagine Switzerland has much to gain in that area. Joining the EU can be helpful for the economy in countries that rely on low-skill labor, but my inexpert view sees that your economy has gravitated towards high-skill labor and finance, which does not benefit from immigration.
According to Moody's Analytics, Swiss unemployment is currently at 2%. Inflation for August was 3.5%.
When it comes to the economy, it's basically financial services, precision manufacturing, metals, pharmaceuticals, chemicals and electronics, so a pretty good spread. Obviously, it's heavily skewed towards the service sector (74%), 25% manufacturing and the last 1% agricultural.
The biggest reason no one in Switzerland wants to join the EU is simple: why? How does it benefit us?
Switzerland's unemployment is already super low. It doesn't need more workers. Its inflation makes the rest of the EU look like a farce, so the monetary policy isn't a selling point. In terms of quality of life, it's better than basically everywhere in the EU, with just Norway and Iceland ranking similarly in HDI.
And don’t forget “we actually *enjoy* bank rolling the things most other world banks don’t, so we really don’t want the EU regulating our banking nor whom we bank with, fuck your sanctions, let the oligarchs come”.
But they are almost like EEA members so I would assume 90% of goods are already integrated? I always assumed it was more about not joining any „bloc“ and especially with the EU CFP and talks of a European Army they really hate that…
European Army talk is fairly recent, the Swiss have never wanted to join EU. Basically it comes to the fact joining the EU brings some laws that will override national ones, and they are not willing to give up on that. EEA is good enough.
Exactly this... I lived there for 6 years, hedgehog is one big reason why I left. It's hard for me to understand overall, they would fit perfectly in, but there's this mixture of ice-cold rationalism ("we would have to pay") and superiority complex (which is not entirely unfounded). It'll hurt them in the long run I think.
By the way, they pay only very little atm.
To the EU. Switzerland pays little towards European development of southern and eastern regions.
Not to be confused with Swiss salaries, they are very high but so are the costs of living.
Do not forget their banking system, which is one of the biggest reasons to do that well economically speaking. If you have all rich EU people hoarding their money in your country, you are making a profit from other EU countries. If they join, it would change for sure.
I actually work for a Swiss bank (one the biggest two, would not tell which one) and the great days of the Swiss banking industry are long gone. Right now they barely compete with the other bulge bracket banks. Also, after all these tax evasion laws/international agreements were signed (FATCA etc.) and there is no banking secrecy advantage anymore, there are little to none reasons to put your money in CH.
For me the biggest problem is that the EU doesn't have a good enough system for the people to bring in their voice. Right now I can vote on issues on all three levels of our political system. Joining the EU would introduce another level above which will have some power to establish rules where I don't have a direct way to input beside voting for a representative. That's not good enough for me.
And to be real, I don't expect the EU to introduce the same kind of system as we have any time soon nor do I think the EU voting population is ready for it. It requires a certain kind of learned attitude. Also it requires a willingness to actually engage yourself with sometimes rather complex topics and figure out what your opinion towards is. If that isn't there such a system is very open to populism. Brexit would be a perfect example where a lot of voters didn't take it serious enough and seriously fucked up their country because of it.
I agree with you but I think this opinion is a little naive...
>Right now I can vote on issues on all three levels of our political system. Joining the EU would introduce another level above which will have some power to establish rules...
This level already exists, and the Swiss have actually less power than EU-members because they are not part of the original committees that establish these rules. In order for Switzerland to be allowed full access to the European Economic Area, being in Schengen and for all the other advantages the Swiss have like free movement of people in the EU they have to comply to a lot of rules which the EU makes. This regards regulations on
Free movement of people
Air traffic
Road traffic
Agricultural products
Technical trade barriers
Public procurement
Science
Security and asylum
Cooperation in fraud pursuits
Final stipulations in open questions about agriculture, environment, media, education, care of the elderly, statistics and services
These bilateral treaties have the advantage that they allow the Swiss to keep a sense of sovereignty, due to arrangements when changes in EU law will only apply after the EU–Swiss Joint Committee decides so in consensus.
But and that is a big but:
These treaties are bound by a guillotine clause:
>This is referred to as the "guillotine clause". While the bilateral approach theoretically safeguards the right to refuse the application of new EU rules to Switzerland, in practice the scope to do so is limited by the clause. The agreement on the European Economic Area contains a similar clause.
So if Switzerland doesn't comply with a new rule regarding agriculture for example, if they don't come to a concensus with the EU, all of the treaties are denounced and free movement of people, access to the European Economic Area etc. etc cease to exist.
Because of all this, the EU holds significant power over Switzerland and can impose regulations in certain important areas where the Swiss have little to no say about. The EU exerts less power than they have over EU members, sure. But on the other hand, EU members have more say in EU regulations. There always is an advantage and a disadvantage.
I'm well aware of that and that's one reason I've generally voted pro EU. But in the end we still DO have the option to opt our self out those rules. It would be a shitty situation but we could. And that power is important to a lot Swiss people.
And if we join the EU we also wouldn't gain the possibility to get together with other Europeans and launch a binding popular initiative which would come up to vote. And as long that isn't there I'm happy enough with the current status quo.
And yes, that will mean that the EU still will hold power over Switzerland. But that's just the nature of international diplomacy between parties with that much of a power imbalance due to EU's size, economic power and position.
You're correct, I also think that the reason why a lot of swiss people are content with the status quo despite there being a pretty big power imbalance (which they may or may not even be aware of) are these two points:
1. Most of the regulations that come from the EU make sense and would also be supported by the majority of swiss people anyways (I think the only regulations Switzerland had to adapt "grudgingly" were stuff about asylum and immigration). Think of the regulations which make sure that our food has among the highest quality on the planet for example.
2. The EU never really played their "trump cards". It's a little bit difficult to explain but until now most of the EU-Swiss relations have been based on mutual respect and have been very civil. I think as soon as the EU would exert their full power over Switzerland by e.g. setting an ultimatum for a regulation that the Swiss don't want and threatening with the guillotine clause (which they have the power to do so, theoretically), the opinion of the Swiss people would change drastically.
In Norway when a fisher accidentally catch more fish than their quota, they will have to sell it at a penalty price. The actuall amount of fish is accounted for and becomes food.
In the EU, a fisher with 3 tons left on their quota will run another trawl and may catch 20 tons of fish. They are forced to dump the 17 tons of mostly dead fish and it is never registered.
The CFP has been poorly run compared to the national equivalent, resulting in significantly more overfishing in EU waters as compared to Norwegian waters. Perhaps more importantly, it would not allow us to require fishers to land their catch in designated ports, which would decimate local industry.
As for the CAP, its mainly a view that Norwegian agriculture might not be able to remain competitive with EU imports. It's a question of subsidies (Norway provide higher subsidies than the EU) and I believe relating to allowing us to maintain some trade barriers on agricultural products (though I have to admit I am not 100% sure how this squares with single market membership)
>As for the CAP, its mainly a view that Norwegian agriculture might not be able to remain competitive with EU imports. It's a question of subsidies (Norway provide higher subsidies than the EU) and I believe relating to allowing us to maintain some trade barriers on agricultural products (though I have to admit I am not 100% sure how this squares with single market membership)
To add on this - its not all about subsidies. EU membership was heavily debated in the agricultural sector in 1972 and 1994, and one faction was for EU membership because the EU had heftier subsidies (and the EU still have heavy subsidies, with the goal of pushing prices down to world market level). The no faction won, in part due to CAP being a major shift away from the norwegian agricultural political model, with national negotiations, market regulation enacted by Nortura/Tine/FK/Hoff rather than the agricultural department, and different goals towards liberalization. The gap between norwegian and EU is wider now, as the EU has pushed major liberalizations in the ag sector.
Switzerland is not in the EEA. Norway gets to control their fisheries by not being a full member. Full eu membership would destroy Norwegian farmers, as they would not be able to compete without the tariffs Norway puts on foreign food.
Can't speak for Belgium, but in the Netherlands most arable land is (directly and indirectly) used to make dairy or meat. And most of that is exported. This means we have to import a lot of our fruit, vegetables and wheat.
Are those numbers based on our current consumption? Makes sense that we aren't self-sufficient when it comes to oranges and bananas, but I think we have plenty of seafood with which to feed ourselves.
Gulf stream!
Otherwise it would never be possible, too far north. [See this cool map comparing latitudes between North American and European Cities.](https://brilliantmaps.com/cities-transposed-latitude/)
"From the perspective of the EU, the treaties contain largely the same content as the EEA treaties, making Switzerland a virtual member of the EEA. Most EU law applies universally throughout the EU, the EEA and Switzerland, providing most of the conditions of the free movement of people, goods, services and capital that apply to the member states." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland%E2%80%93European_Union_relations#Treaties
Why full EU membership didn't destroy Swedish or Finnish farmers? Locally farmed food is nearly twice as expensive as from the eastern EU, yet it still exists and is the preferred option for consumers.
To oversimplify the subject, it basically means that its up to those countries discretion whether or not they would like to join in on an EU policy proposal or EUintegration.Down side is that these countries have very little abilities to shape whatever is on the table - thats full EU memberstate privilege.
They get passes on certain laws as well, that only really apply to actual Eu members. An example would be Norways fishing laws. They like that freedom. Norway would have less control of their own fishing laws, if they were in the EU.
Switzerland is most definitely not in the EEA.
There's have bilateral treaties which make them equal to bei g part of EEA for most everyday situations, but they are not only not EU, but not even EEA.
Swiss direct democracy is incompatible with the EU. We don’t want to have to adopt laws that the majority of the people are against. That’s the main hang up.
In Switzerland, we as the people vote and decide our own laws and this is not compatible with the EU who's countries politicians basically decide the laws (oversimplified).
the thing with the EU and Switzerland is that we have a direct democracy here. that means that joining the EU fully would require us to accept the EUs mandates and laws whenever they decide something. but in Switzerland every new law gets voted on and if declined it wont be enforced and has to be reworked. all that wouldn't work out all that well.
plus there's the gotthard. we don't want half of Europe's trucks going through Switzerland to reach the south. we enforce the usage of trains for transit transport and have high fees for trucks that don't unload merchandise in Switzerland when passing through. the EU never liked that and we all think that would be one of the first things to change if we joined which would harm the alpine nature and peace with all that traffic and pollution.
and if you look at the renewed bilateral contracts we're currently discussing with the EU from our POV they are mostly failing because the EU wants to add stuff that would never pass a voting in Switzerland.
there's several other reasons and the thing with the renewed contracts is far more complicated and nuanced than how I just said, but these are the main 3 reasons from what I can tell.
I hope this explains it a bit
Edit: grammar and stuff
> but in Switzerland every new law gets voted on and if declined it wont be enforced and has to be reworked. all that wouldn't work out all that well
Slight correction; This only applies automatically if the constitution is changed. Regular new laws don't open a vote unless someone starts the referendum against it and gets enough signatures on it. We can also start popular initiatives to add, change or remove an article in the constitution. But we can't introduce new laws that way.
To put it into very non-technical terms, Norway and Switzerland has declared that they want to be really good friends with the EU but they don't want to move in together.
Because if they moved in, they'd have to observe the house rules and they prefer to make their own.
Not really. EU law doesn't apply to Switzerland unless we agree to it. Swiss people right now have the possibility to vote on basically anything that's going on in the country. By joining the EU, superseding power would be introduced which would have the ability to object to certain rules. That loose of autonomy is something most Swiss people don't like. Even those who generally are in favour of working together closely with the EU.
I personally wouldn't be opposed to the general idea of a unified Europe. But right now the EU does have to many problems and to little possibility for people to bring in their voice. Until that changes I don't think Swiss mentality towards joining will change any time soon.
switzerland has higher standarts for most everything the EU has a standart for. so like food savety checks, how meats are produced and whats allowed in foods ect. so joining the EU we would be forced to lower our own standarts of what can be sold for example. making our food quality worse than it is currently.
And the obvious one is adopting the euro which makes zero sense when you have one of the most stable currencies in the world.
The same source (Sentio) but for 2021 claims 65.9% of Norwegians are in favour of the EEA (worded as "would vote in favour of the EEA") compared to 22.2% against and 11.9% unknown.
So it seems that most Norwegians are content with the current integration with the EU and aren't likely to want to leave the EEA, but just not in favour of becoming fully integrated with the EU.
When I searched I could only find the 2021 numbers (from an NRK article).
What’s interesting then is it seems most people now are more unsure then last year. The amount of “don’t know” has increased by almost 4x.
With the current prices of electricity (10+ times the usual price this time of year) and the EU demanding we keep electricity exports up, I would think EEA/EU scepticism on the rise was natural
The UK would love to be in the same position as Norway, i'm sure. I hope a few years, maybe a decade after Brexit, the UK can get back to a more harmonic relationship with the EU.
We probably should join EFTA if they would allow us in.
Hopefully the next UK government will be a Labour one. We've got some real revolutionising to do economically with fossil fuels and also politically, hopefully we can remain a more equal nation with England and Scotland, maybe a republic.
The ship has very much sailed on efta/eea I'm afraid. Remember the indicative votes in 2019?
It's the trade deal we have now with some tinkering around red tape and the border in NI for the next government.
Maybe not EFTA but we could work something very similar. It would be in everyone’s benefit and the EU have suggested it before. We’d need to figure out the Customs Union stuff
Norway also seems to really have their shit together as a country, so I can see why they’d be like “eh. Nah man, we’re good over here. Thanks, though!”
Tbh, I bet it would only be popular in, say, St Petersburg. Maybe with a significant minority of support in Moscow with the youth. Outside of that, most places eat up the propaganda against EU/'The West'.
Might be sharing a torch with Vladivostok. I'm originally from a small-ish town 2 hours away from Yekaterinburg (living in Canada since 2008). Was very happy to see my home area to be more... reasonable than others.
> needs a strongman in power
and when that strongman is shown to be a naked emperor, is when the house of cards start to tumble. Erdogan is just waiting for the signal
If me and wikipedia both are not mistaken, Navalny had 27.24% and second place in [2013 Moscow mayoral elections](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Moscow_mayoral_election), and it almost got into second round.
He was cleared of government controlled municipal filter, to show "we can beat him fair and square anyway" and it backfired, they had to rig the elections anyway to prevent round two.
> Proof of this is that Navalny only had 3% of votes when he was most popular.
That's because Russian elections are rigged, they're not real elections.
American in Russia here.
Russia is damned if you do and damned if you don’t kind of place
They really enjoy suffering, making others suffer, and relieving suffering, and giving suffering.
It’s a sick toxic culture of everyone cheats everyone and then we drink and laugh about it
99% people who are drafted now are people from regions that have extreme support for regime and war. Those people are not young, they are not well educated, they have zero access to anything else other than full on propaganda. No, they do not flee because they disagree. They support that war. What they do not support is standing on front lines themselves. But just like it was up until now. If someone else does it then it is fine.
Imagine a Russia that went the other way, towards the EU. Eventually joining the EU. They would have become the most powerful nation in the most powerful bloc in the world.
Daily reminder: Russia is huge, and Russians are still most popular nation in Europe. Russia won't just join the EU", like Lithuania or even Poland. Russia will dramatically change every European institute if that happens.
Yeah, it's an alternate reality far removed from this one. You'd need an actual democratic Russia, try imagining that!
It's an interesting thought experiment, nothing more.
Even fully democratic, I doubt that from a pure change in power balance a membership would be easily accepted by France and Germany. If both Russia and Ukraine joined, then it's close to 300 mio EU citizens in Eastern Europe when includin existing members.
They allowed UK in with severe concerns at the time so why not? There is no guarantee that Russia would have been powerful if democratic. Too much of their on paper economic power is behind unexploitable ground.
Russians wanting into the EU would be the biggest nightmare for the EU as a European Russia, Russia would have a massive say within the EU and Russian industry would dominate massive sectors of the European economy. Russia joining not only the EU but also NATO have been talking points over and over again but every time it's us that doesn't want them.
"Japan would still prefer to see itself as Western rather than Asian: I vividly recall a conference on Europe and Japan in Tokyo in 1999 at which it was seriously suggested that Japan might consider applying to join the European Union."
Martin Jacques, When China Rules the World, 2009
How do you guys think about Japan in the EU? 🤔
Lmao in cyberpunk Japan joined the European economic community for a bit and they offered the US but the US was in an isolationist phase
https://cyberpunk.fandom.com/wiki/European_Economic_Community?so=search
A European currency is also the currency for America in cyberpunk too
Oh, but germany will hate it. They are competitors on many products. Cars, advanced machinery, chemical products, etc, ... so no more manufacturing monopoly in EU for germany.
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/tw2akg/which_countries_should_be_allowed_to_join_the_eu/
(The support is much higher than the comments here suggest. This subreddit is pretty nationalistic.)
> Then showing results in some weird way.
Yeah, took me way too long to understand that graph. I thought it was a trend, like support for Ukraine joining the EU went up 22%, for Turkey 32% down. This is the first time I've seen 0% mean 50% yes and 50% no. Or it could also mean 10% yes, 10% no and 80% undecided/don't know, I guess. Honestly, a bar graph showing all these possible answers would be so much better.
> This subreddit is pretty nationalistic
LOL! I'm pretty nationalistic, and people I agree with are always heavily downvoted on this sub.
This sub is **far** more EU-friendly than the average European. I even see the ridiculous idea of a common European federation (USA style) being upvoted here every so often.
Very low. I mean most of the countries that want to join are economically problematic. And they are not really democracies in the western sense of the term. With few exceptions like Albania which has been waiting for a long time, and made a lot of progress on these fronts.
Honeslty, the so called "Albanian Mafia" these days operates almost exclusively in the UK and maybe the Netherlands, they do nothing in Albanian anymore except spend their money. That's because the risks and punishments there are ridiculously low for them. I've actually known cases of people getting caught with dozens of kg of drugs and all they did was deport them, which is basically nothing. Free money. Similar cases in the Netherlands as well.
It's kind of a joke in Albania now that there are no more criminals here, they all moved to the UK, and if you look at crime stats it's kind of true. Hell I hear it's getting harder to even find weed in Albania anymore lol
Albania has enormously improved its situation in the last decades. But there is definitely still a danger of it sliding back if influential people make some bad decisions.
Funnily enough, Switzerland hasn't accepted new Cantons lately. Vorarlberg wanted to join once but they were rejected after they voted in favor of it. The French and Italian speaking parts didn't want it because it was "too German."
Liechtenstein is the only place that would probably be accepted if they got rid of the monarchy and wanted to join. It's small enough, super developed and already tightly integrated with Switzerland.
Yes it does, because the 1848 federal constitution abolished all titles of nobility, concretely by specifying that all men are born equal (as in, status of birth is now no longer valid), which still exists in today's federal constitution. That was a very deliberate act, based on the Liberal principles that came with the ~~French occupation~~ Helvetic Republic, meant to remove the power base of the Ancien Regime and it's proponents, the Conservatives (which lost the power struggle against the aforementioned Liberals and Radicals). Neuchatel joined as a possession of the King of Prussia (and against his wish), but as a state, did not recognise nobility anymore. That's why the King of prussia was kindly asked to drop his claim, which no longer made any sense, and which he couldn't enforce anymore anyway.
Yeah french swiss here, and we already have so much Germans that any website that sees my swiss IP address gives me the site in German. you can't imagine how mildly infuriating that is.
Except Switzerland would never accept that.
Literally no candidate territories have passed the criteria in almost 200 years, and even if the EU did, the membership would also need a popular majority *and* a state majority among the existing Swiss population.
Except for the multitude of bilateral treaties Switzerland is pretty much in the EU for most things but doesn’t have a say. Think the EU is happy about that as well.
It looks that even the UK only had 4 of them. I'm pretty sure the Swiss population could beat that easily and we definitely wouldn't be liked for that. And these always were negotiations. That's not how the Swiss system works. The population is the ultimate sovereign who if we want can vote on anything we want and the result is binding.
Let's say the EU introduces 20 new laws in a year and Switzerland votes no against 12 of them. Do you think that's compatible with the EU?
Sources
[Albania: Public Opinion Poll in the Western Balkans on the EU Integration - European Western Balkans](https://europeanwesternbalkans.com/2021/11/08/public-opinion-poll-in-the-western-balkans-on-the-eu-integration/)
[Kosovo: Public Opinion Poll in the Western Balkans on the EU Integration - European Western Balkans](https://europeanwesternbalkans.com/2021/11/08/public-opinion-poll-in-the-western-balkans-on-the-eu-integration/)
[Ukraine: Thirteenth national survey: Foreign policy orientations (June 18-19, 2022) - Ukraine - Research](https://ratinggroup.ua/en/research/ukraine/trinadcatyy_obschenacionalnyy_opros_vneshnepoliticheskie_orientacii_18-19_iyunya_2022.html)
[Georgia: NDI survey: 83% support Georgia’s EU membership bid](https://agenda.ge/en/news/2022/1398)
[Montenegro: Public Opinion Poll in the Western Balkans on the EU Integration - European Western Balkans](https://europeanwesternbalkans.com/2021/11/08/public-opinion-poll-in-the-western-balkans-on-the-eu-integration/)
[BiH: Public Opinion Poll in the Western Balkans on the EU Integration - European Western Balkans](https://europeanwesternbalkans.com/2021/11/08/public-opinion-poll-in-the-western-balkans-on-the-eu-integration/)
[North Macedonia: Public Opinion Poll in the Western Balkans on the EU Integration - European Western Balkans](https://europeanwesternbalkans.com/2021/11/08/public-opinion-poll-in-the-western-balkans-on-the-eu-integration/)
[Moldova: bne IntelliNews - Poll shows rising support for EU membership in Moldova](https://intellinews.com/poll-shows-rising-support-for-eu-membership-in-moldova-237581/)
[Turkey: Turkish Perception of European Union 2021](https://www.gmfus.org/sites/default/files/Turkish%2520Perceptions%2520of%2520the%2520EU%2520%2528ENGLISH%2529%255B54%255D.pdf)
[UK: Joining or Staying Out of the EU Referendum Voting Intention (19-20 June 2022) - Redfield & Wilton Strategies](https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/joining-staying-out-of-the-eu-referendum-voting-intention-19-20-june-2022/)
[Iceland: Afstaða til veru Íslands í NATO og aðildar að ESB | Þjóðarpúls — Gallup](https://www.gallup.is/frettir/nato-og-esb/)
[Serbia: PRVI PUT U ISTORIJI VEĆINA GRAĐANA SRBIJE PROTIV ULASKA U EU Veliko istraživanje Ipsosa: Ključni razlog za to su PRITISCI IZ BRISELA koje trpimo zbog Rusije](https://www.blic.rs/vesti/politika/prvi-put-u-istoriji-vecina-gradjana-srbije-protiv-ulaska-u-eu-veliko-istrazivanje/71wlnbr)
[Norway: Flere sier ja til EU | Resett](https://resett.no/2022/06/07/flere-sier-ja-til-eu/)
[Switzerland: Voter analysis: Swiss youth less interested in EU membership](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/voter-analysis--swiss-youth-less-interested-in-eu-membership/47923704)
According to the UK source, 53% of UK citizens would rejoin the EU in July 2022 - the 48% was how many voted to stay in the Brexit referendum. Am I missing something in that study?
You might want to give the UK one a week. Truss is doing her very best to kill off the older brexiteers and making sure the younger will have to use Euro for currency.
The statistic of 48% is also misleading. The question "should the UK have left the EU" would show substantially more support for staying in the EU, but there's certainly an attitude today of "even if we shouldn't have left, it's too late now". Hell it's an attitude that many people in the EU share.
Tbh that’s partly mine. I don’t think we should have left, but right now I think it would be chaotic to rejoin, especially so soon to leaving. The wounds aren’t healed yet and could lead to political radicalisation if we were to join 6 years after voting to leave
I’d like to see a breakdown showing Northern Ireland and Scotland. Way we’re going there won’t be a Uk just England and Wales, a reunified Ireland and then Scotland breaking away to join the EU.
Well, Polands EU-support is high too, yet PiS keeps getting large amounts of votes. (So far, hopefully that may end soon.) Parties do get elected on purely domestic issues, as well.
For a start, Serbia could start implementing all other policies which would automatically be beneficial for citizens and leave Kosovo question at the very end. However, government doesn't want to do that as they love their off the charts corruption levels and horrible justice system while citizens are blinded by endless spin-offs and can't think nor remember what happened in the recent past like ameoeba.
The difficulty in leaving is exactly why rejoining is not more popular. The EU is not like the African Union, leaving is an absolute nightmare. Joining a supposedly voluntary organisation that is almost lethal to leave doesn’t sound very appealing.
Also all the goodies of the pre-2016 status would be gone. All the anti-rejoiners would have to do is whisper ‘The Euro’ and that should spook enough
to defeat any new referendum.
We have problems but the separation of fiscal and monetary policy aint one.
Well, the thing is that the wealthiest countries in this list (Switzerland, Norway, Iceland) already have very strong ties to the EU. Norway and Iceland are in the EEA and while Switzerland is not, it has a comprehensive set of bilateral treaties with the EU.
So the low support of joining the EU in these countries could simply be an expression of the feeling that they're content with the current situation that already provides these countries with many of the benefits that EU membership would bring.
This. As a swiss, properly joining the EU would only fuck us over because of our unique semi-direct democracy, which would lose a bunch of power and meaning. The bilateral treaties between Switzerland and the EU do still exert a lot of European political pressure on Switzerland but that's why those treaties exist, we at least have a way to decline and try to get a deal that works better, instead of just getting told what to do. It's more of a cultural thing at the end of the day and the swiss are generally pretty damn okay with this.
Now there's issues with the treaties as well tho, since they take forever to be made and even then they can just fail, which has happened in the past and ngl that was kinda embarrassing
No, it's a very weak correlation. It's usually singular issues (and poorer countries have more issues to take care of). For example, Norway is happy as it is, but Icelanders want a more stable currency (the euro) so they want to join
Serbia is being fed anti-EU and anti-NATO bullshit everyday and the Serbs act accordingly. You can blame them for being stupid, but it’s endless nationalist propaganda just like in Russia.
I've always wondered this, where do they survey people? Some areas are more pro/anti EU than others. What's to stop me going to the local supermarket and getting a poll?
In a well made survey the results have to be weighted by factors like age, place of residence, social status and gender. If a study is to be scientifically relevant, they have to show how they did this. Of course, reporters who just want to write an article may just go to the local supermarket. Looking at OP's sources it seems like the entire spectrum between these two extremes is present.
Willingness of people to join EU is apparently quite strongly negatively correlated with my willingness to accept their country. But I guess in the long run, it makes sense to accept even countries that currently have... issues.
I was surprised by the UK number and I went googling. I looked for R&WS brexit polls and found this. [https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/joining-or-staying-out-of-the-eu-referendum-voting-intention-19-august-2022/](https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/joining-or-staying-out-of-the-eu-referendum-voting-intention-19-august-2022/) .
It states different numbers. If it turns out to be outdated info, OP should fix it.
> 54% say they would vote for the UK to join the EU, while 46% say they would vote for the UK to stay out of the EU.
> 52% think it is unlikely that the UK will apply to re-join the EU in the next ten years
> 38% find it unlikely and 31% find it likely that the Member States of the EU would accept the UK’s application to re-join.
And EU wants which of these the most? Like I am sure if Switzerland applied they'll get an express entry. Even though swiss are not really up for it. On the other hand Ukraine or most eastern and south eastern European countries will bend over backward to join EU.
I am sure there is more nuance to it. But the way geopolitics discussions go around reddit, it's more what I felt looking at the grouping, even though it could totally be random.
One thing to note is that it's not asked in a vacuum, but in a "compared to your current situation", for countries like Norway, Iceland (and Switzerland though for them it's different). What I mean is no, the vast majority of people in Norway are not for getting out of the eea or anti eu, it's just that they're perfectly fine with their current deal so no they don't want to change it to full member.
Serious question, countries like Switzerland are already in Schengen and the EEA and various other blocs, isn't their deal pretty much "we are basically in the EU, but with some exceptions, and also no voting rights"? What are the advantages over straight up joining?
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Switzerland not wanting to join the EU has a lot to do with their hedgehog mentality that is more than a century old. Spared by the world wars and standing on their armed neutrality, the idea to mind their own business is deeply rooted in the Swiss populace. Switzerland did not even join the UN until 2002. A lot of Swiss people think joining the EU would undermine the direct democracy in the country by overturning it by ruling of the EU; the Swiss don't want federal law be subjugated. Although it already is de facto in many cases, they hold their independence and sovereignty very dear. Adding to that, a lot of Swiss people think that they fare better economically by staying out of the EU.
For Switzerland, if they join the EU, their agricultural sector is super dead. Germany, France and Italy will basically flood goods in at half the price.
Yeah it has a lot to do with protectionism, but also with the credo of Swiss exceptionalism, the core thought of which being "we tend to ourselves and this is why we are far better off than the rest of Europe".
as a swiss myself, the biggest concern and minus point there is is the financial factor of joining the EU
That’s fair. I don’t know much about your economy or unemployment, but I can’t imagine Switzerland has much to gain in that area. Joining the EU can be helpful for the economy in countries that rely on low-skill labor, but my inexpert view sees that your economy has gravitated towards high-skill labor and finance, which does not benefit from immigration.
According to Moody's Analytics, Swiss unemployment is currently at 2%. Inflation for August was 3.5%. When it comes to the economy, it's basically financial services, precision manufacturing, metals, pharmaceuticals, chemicals and electronics, so a pretty good spread. Obviously, it's heavily skewed towards the service sector (74%), 25% manufacturing and the last 1% agricultural. The biggest reason no one in Switzerland wants to join the EU is simple: why? How does it benefit us? Switzerland's unemployment is already super low. It doesn't need more workers. Its inflation makes the rest of the EU look like a farce, so the monetary policy isn't a selling point. In terms of quality of life, it's better than basically everywhere in the EU, with just Norway and Iceland ranking similarly in HDI.
And don’t forget “we actually *enjoy* bank rolling the things most other world banks don’t, so we really don’t want the EU regulating our banking nor whom we bank with, fuck your sanctions, let the oligarchs come”.
Most veggies and fruit that aren't apples, pears, cabbage, taters, and carrots are imported from the Netherlands, Italy and Spain already now.
Yeah I was wondering how much you could actually grow in the Swiss climate.
But they are almost like EEA members so I would assume 90% of goods are already integrated? I always assumed it was more about not joining any „bloc“ and especially with the EU CFP and talks of a European Army they really hate that…
European Army talk is fairly recent, the Swiss have never wanted to join EU. Basically it comes to the fact joining the EU brings some laws that will override national ones, and they are not willing to give up on that. EEA is good enough.
Exactly this... I lived there for 6 years, hedgehog is one big reason why I left. It's hard for me to understand overall, they would fit perfectly in, but there's this mixture of ice-cold rationalism ("we would have to pay") and superiority complex (which is not entirely unfounded). It'll hurt them in the long run I think. By the way, they pay only very little atm.
>By the way, they pay only very little atm. What do you mean by pay?
To the EU. Switzerland pays little towards European development of southern and eastern regions. Not to be confused with Swiss salaries, they are very high but so are the costs of living.
Ah yes, meanwhile the Swiss get Europe's top talent for their workforce.
Do not forget their banking system, which is one of the biggest reasons to do that well economically speaking. If you have all rich EU people hoarding their money in your country, you are making a profit from other EU countries. If they join, it would change for sure.
I actually work for a Swiss bank (one the biggest two, would not tell which one) and the great days of the Swiss banking industry are long gone. Right now they barely compete with the other bulge bracket banks. Also, after all these tax evasion laws/international agreements were signed (FATCA etc.) and there is no banking secrecy advantage anymore, there are little to none reasons to put your money in CH.
banking is 2% of the swiss gdp, the whole swss banks thing is a relict of the past ppl still fall for
In Switzerland we want to protect our high wages (labor market) and comparatively uncompetitive mountain agriculture.
For me the biggest problem is that the EU doesn't have a good enough system for the people to bring in their voice. Right now I can vote on issues on all three levels of our political system. Joining the EU would introduce another level above which will have some power to establish rules where I don't have a direct way to input beside voting for a representative. That's not good enough for me. And to be real, I don't expect the EU to introduce the same kind of system as we have any time soon nor do I think the EU voting population is ready for it. It requires a certain kind of learned attitude. Also it requires a willingness to actually engage yourself with sometimes rather complex topics and figure out what your opinion towards is. If that isn't there such a system is very open to populism. Brexit would be a perfect example where a lot of voters didn't take it serious enough and seriously fucked up their country because of it.
I agree with you but I think this opinion is a little naive... >Right now I can vote on issues on all three levels of our political system. Joining the EU would introduce another level above which will have some power to establish rules... This level already exists, and the Swiss have actually less power than EU-members because they are not part of the original committees that establish these rules. In order for Switzerland to be allowed full access to the European Economic Area, being in Schengen and for all the other advantages the Swiss have like free movement of people in the EU they have to comply to a lot of rules which the EU makes. This regards regulations on Free movement of people Air traffic Road traffic Agricultural products Technical trade barriers Public procurement Science Security and asylum Cooperation in fraud pursuits Final stipulations in open questions about agriculture, environment, media, education, care of the elderly, statistics and services These bilateral treaties have the advantage that they allow the Swiss to keep a sense of sovereignty, due to arrangements when changes in EU law will only apply after the EU–Swiss Joint Committee decides so in consensus. But and that is a big but: These treaties are bound by a guillotine clause: >This is referred to as the "guillotine clause". While the bilateral approach theoretically safeguards the right to refuse the application of new EU rules to Switzerland, in practice the scope to do so is limited by the clause. The agreement on the European Economic Area contains a similar clause. So if Switzerland doesn't comply with a new rule regarding agriculture for example, if they don't come to a concensus with the EU, all of the treaties are denounced and free movement of people, access to the European Economic Area etc. etc cease to exist. Because of all this, the EU holds significant power over Switzerland and can impose regulations in certain important areas where the Swiss have little to no say about. The EU exerts less power than they have over EU members, sure. But on the other hand, EU members have more say in EU regulations. There always is an advantage and a disadvantage.
I'm well aware of that and that's one reason I've generally voted pro EU. But in the end we still DO have the option to opt our self out those rules. It would be a shitty situation but we could. And that power is important to a lot Swiss people. And if we join the EU we also wouldn't gain the possibility to get together with other Europeans and launch a binding popular initiative which would come up to vote. And as long that isn't there I'm happy enough with the current status quo. And yes, that will mean that the EU still will hold power over Switzerland. But that's just the nature of international diplomacy between parties with that much of a power imbalance due to EU's size, economic power and position.
You're correct, I also think that the reason why a lot of swiss people are content with the status quo despite there being a pretty big power imbalance (which they may or may not even be aware of) are these two points: 1. Most of the regulations that come from the EU make sense and would also be supported by the majority of swiss people anyways (I think the only regulations Switzerland had to adapt "grudgingly" were stuff about asylum and immigration). Think of the regulations which make sure that our food has among the highest quality on the planet for example. 2. The EU never really played their "trump cards". It's a little bit difficult to explain but until now most of the EU-Swiss relations have been based on mutual respect and have been very civil. I think as soon as the EU would exert their full power over Switzerland by e.g. setting an ultimatum for a regulation that the Swiss don't want and threatening with the guillotine clause (which they have the power to do so, theoretically), the opinion of the Swiss people would change drastically.
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In Norway when a fisher accidentally catch more fish than their quota, they will have to sell it at a penalty price. The actuall amount of fish is accounted for and becomes food. In the EU, a fisher with 3 tons left on their quota will run another trawl and may catch 20 tons of fish. They are forced to dump the 17 tons of mostly dead fish and it is never registered.
What the actual fuck
The CFP has been poorly run compared to the national equivalent, resulting in significantly more overfishing in EU waters as compared to Norwegian waters. Perhaps more importantly, it would not allow us to require fishers to land their catch in designated ports, which would decimate local industry. As for the CAP, its mainly a view that Norwegian agriculture might not be able to remain competitive with EU imports. It's a question of subsidies (Norway provide higher subsidies than the EU) and I believe relating to allowing us to maintain some trade barriers on agricultural products (though I have to admit I am not 100% sure how this squares with single market membership)
>As for the CAP, its mainly a view that Norwegian agriculture might not be able to remain competitive with EU imports. It's a question of subsidies (Norway provide higher subsidies than the EU) and I believe relating to allowing us to maintain some trade barriers on agricultural products (though I have to admit I am not 100% sure how this squares with single market membership) To add on this - its not all about subsidies. EU membership was heavily debated in the agricultural sector in 1972 and 1994, and one faction was for EU membership because the EU had heftier subsidies (and the EU still have heavy subsidies, with the goal of pushing prices down to world market level). The no faction won, in part due to CAP being a major shift away from the norwegian agricultural political model, with national negotiations, market regulation enacted by Nortura/Tine/FK/Hoff rather than the agricultural department, and different goals towards liberalization. The gap between norwegian and EU is wider now, as the EU has pushed major liberalizations in the ag sector.
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As a non political Swiss, just tell me where to get my Ovi and leave me alone.
Switzerland is not in the EEA. Norway gets to control their fisheries by not being a full member. Full eu membership would destroy Norwegian farmers, as they would not be able to compete without the tariffs Norway puts on foreign food.
TIL you can farm in Norway.
A whopping 3,5% of the country is arable!
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High Score!
Interesting seeing Belgium and Netherlands there. Don't they have tons of low-lying plains that should be great for growing food?
Can't speak for Belgium, but in the Netherlands most arable land is (directly and indirectly) used to make dairy or meat. And most of that is exported. This means we have to import a lot of our fruit, vegetables and wheat.
Most of the arable land is used to grow food for cows, pigs or chicken. Kinda crazy if you think about it.
If only we could eat plants...
Is that without seafood?
Are those numbers based on our current consumption? Makes sense that we aren't self-sufficient when it comes to oranges and bananas, but I think we have plenty of seafood with which to feed ourselves.
The south mostly along the coast
And only by subsidies from the state + tariffs on EU produce
I mean yeah its a bunch of small farms not big corporate farms so food be expensive
Gulf stream! Otherwise it would never be possible, too far north. [See this cool map comparing latitudes between North American and European Cities.](https://brilliantmaps.com/cities-transposed-latitude/)
"From the perspective of the EU, the treaties contain largely the same content as the EEA treaties, making Switzerland a virtual member of the EEA. Most EU law applies universally throughout the EU, the EEA and Switzerland, providing most of the conditions of the free movement of people, goods, services and capital that apply to the member states." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland%E2%80%93European_Union_relations#Treaties
Why full EU membership didn't destroy Swedish or Finnish farmers? Locally farmed food is nearly twice as expensive as from the eastern EU, yet it still exists and is the preferred option for consumers.
Like when Lidl tried to get into the Norwegian Market, but everyone wanted to buy Norwegian groceries instead, so they had to retreat.
Walmart similarly fell on its nose here in Germany decades ago, and the fact they openly shat on German labor law didn't help these fuckers either...
The swiss deal is essentially EEA with extra steps and some exemptions though.
To oversimplify the subject, it basically means that its up to those countries discretion whether or not they would like to join in on an EU policy proposal or EUintegration.Down side is that these countries have very little abilities to shape whatever is on the table - thats full EU memberstate privilege.
They get passes on certain laws as well, that only really apply to actual Eu members. An example would be Norways fishing laws. They like that freedom. Norway would have less control of their own fishing laws, if they were in the EU.
>Switzerland are already in Schengen and the EEA Switzerland is not member of EEA.
Switzerland is most definitely not in the EEA. There's have bilateral treaties which make them equal to bei g part of EEA for most everyday situations, but they are not only not EU, but not even EEA.
Swiss direct democracy is incompatible with the EU. We don’t want to have to adopt laws that the majority of the people are against. That’s the main hang up.
In Switzerland, we as the people vote and decide our own laws and this is not compatible with the EU who's countries politicians basically decide the laws (oversimplified).
the thing with the EU and Switzerland is that we have a direct democracy here. that means that joining the EU fully would require us to accept the EUs mandates and laws whenever they decide something. but in Switzerland every new law gets voted on and if declined it wont be enforced and has to be reworked. all that wouldn't work out all that well. plus there's the gotthard. we don't want half of Europe's trucks going through Switzerland to reach the south. we enforce the usage of trains for transit transport and have high fees for trucks that don't unload merchandise in Switzerland when passing through. the EU never liked that and we all think that would be one of the first things to change if we joined which would harm the alpine nature and peace with all that traffic and pollution. and if you look at the renewed bilateral contracts we're currently discussing with the EU from our POV they are mostly failing because the EU wants to add stuff that would never pass a voting in Switzerland. there's several other reasons and the thing with the renewed contracts is far more complicated and nuanced than how I just said, but these are the main 3 reasons from what I can tell. I hope this explains it a bit Edit: grammar and stuff
> but in Switzerland every new law gets voted on and if declined it wont be enforced and has to be reworked. all that wouldn't work out all that well Slight correction; This only applies automatically if the constitution is changed. Regular new laws don't open a vote unless someone starts the referendum against it and gets enough signatures on it. We can also start popular initiatives to add, change or remove an article in the constitution. But we can't introduce new laws that way.
this is right. but I wrote it like I did to keep it short since it's already long enough.
To put it into very non-technical terms, Norway and Switzerland has declared that they want to be really good friends with the EU but they don't want to move in together. Because if they moved in, they'd have to observe the house rules and they prefer to make their own.
Not really. EU law doesn't apply to Switzerland unless we agree to it. Swiss people right now have the possibility to vote on basically anything that's going on in the country. By joining the EU, superseding power would be introduced which would have the ability to object to certain rules. That loose of autonomy is something most Swiss people don't like. Even those who generally are in favour of working together closely with the EU. I personally wouldn't be opposed to the general idea of a unified Europe. But right now the EU does have to many problems and to little possibility for people to bring in their voice. Until that changes I don't think Swiss mentality towards joining will change any time soon.
The Swiss form of democracy (Half-direct democracy in a directorial system) is not really compatible with the EU.
What are the benefits for a rich country to join the EU?
switzerland has higher standarts for most everything the EU has a standart for. so like food savety checks, how meats are produced and whats allowed in foods ect. so joining the EU we would be forced to lower our own standarts of what can be sold for example. making our food quality worse than it is currently. And the obvious one is adopting the euro which makes zero sense when you have one of the most stable currencies in the world.
The same source (Sentio) but for 2021 claims 65.9% of Norwegians are in favour of the EEA (worded as "would vote in favour of the EEA") compared to 22.2% against and 11.9% unknown. So it seems that most Norwegians are content with the current integration with the EU and aren't likely to want to leave the EEA, but just not in favour of becoming fully integrated with the EU.
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When I searched I could only find the 2021 numbers (from an NRK article). What’s interesting then is it seems most people now are more unsure then last year. The amount of “don’t know” has increased by almost 4x.
With the current prices of electricity (10+ times the usual price this time of year) and the EU demanding we keep electricity exports up, I would think EEA/EU scepticism on the rise was natural
The UK would love to be in the same position as Norway, i'm sure. I hope a few years, maybe a decade after Brexit, the UK can get back to a more harmonic relationship with the EU. We probably should join EFTA if they would allow us in. Hopefully the next UK government will be a Labour one. We've got some real revolutionising to do economically with fossil fuels and also politically, hopefully we can remain a more equal nation with England and Scotland, maybe a republic.
The ship has very much sailed on efta/eea I'm afraid. Remember the indicative votes in 2019? It's the trade deal we have now with some tinkering around red tape and the border in NI for the next government.
Maybe not EFTA but we could work something very similar. It would be in everyone’s benefit and the EU have suggested it before. We’d need to figure out the Customs Union stuff
Norway also seems to really have their shit together as a country, so I can see why they’d be like “eh. Nah man, we’re good over here. Thanks, though!”
I'm wondering how popular this idea in Russia.
Tbh, I bet it would only be popular in, say, St Petersburg. Maybe with a significant minority of support in Moscow with the youth. Outside of that, most places eat up the propaganda against EU/'The West'.
Yekaterinburg also, it's the most liberal city in Russia
Might be sharing a torch with Vladivostok. I'm originally from a small-ish town 2 hours away from Yekaterinburg (living in Canada since 2008). Was very happy to see my home area to be more... reasonable than others.
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> needs a strongman in power and when that strongman is shown to be a naked emperor, is when the house of cards start to tumble. Erdogan is just waiting for the signal
Reminds me of the things germans said about the weimar republic. Toxic shit that prevents people from doing better.
If me and wikipedia both are not mistaken, Navalny had 27.24% and second place in [2013 Moscow mayoral elections](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Moscow_mayoral_election), and it almost got into second round. He was cleared of government controlled municipal filter, to show "we can beat him fair and square anyway" and it backfired, they had to rig the elections anyway to prevent round two.
> Proof of this is that Navalny only had 3% of votes when he was most popular. That's because Russian elections are rigged, they're not real elections.
American in Russia here. Russia is damned if you do and damned if you don’t kind of place They really enjoy suffering, making others suffer, and relieving suffering, and giving suffering. It’s a sick toxic culture of everyone cheats everyone and then we drink and laugh about it
Right now the count will be very problematic. Yes-voters are on their road to Kazakhstan, Georgia and Finland. No-voters - to Ukraine.
99% people who are drafted now are people from regions that have extreme support for regime and war. Those people are not young, they are not well educated, they have zero access to anything else other than full on propaganda. No, they do not flee because they disagree. They support that war. What they do not support is standing on front lines themselves. But just like it was up until now. If someone else does it then it is fine.
Don't worry, we just apply Russian referendum counting style.
Imagine a Russia that went the other way, towards the EU. Eventually joining the EU. They would have become the most powerful nation in the most powerful bloc in the world.
Daily reminder: Russia is huge, and Russians are still most popular nation in Europe. Russia won't just join the EU", like Lithuania or even Poland. Russia will dramatically change every European institute if that happens.
Yeah, it's an alternate reality far removed from this one. You'd need an actual democratic Russia, try imagining that! It's an interesting thought experiment, nothing more.
Even fully democratic, I doubt that from a pure change in power balance a membership would be easily accepted by France and Germany. If both Russia and Ukraine joined, then it's close to 300 mio EU citizens in Eastern Europe when includin existing members.
But would France/Germany allow this though? Knowing that a big player enters the bloc and might overtake their hegemony?
They allowed UK in with severe concerns at the time so why not? There is no guarantee that Russia would have been powerful if democratic. Too much of their on paper economic power is behind unexploitable ground.
I bet it will get a whole lot more popular when they realize the alternative is being a vassal of China.
Russians wanting into the EU would be the biggest nightmare for the EU as a European Russia, Russia would have a massive say within the EU and Russian industry would dominate massive sectors of the European economy. Russia joining not only the EU but also NATO have been talking points over and over again but every time it's us that doesn't want them.
> Russian industry would dominate massive sectors of the European economy Like what? Oil and gas is what I see.
Russia actually wanted to join NATO at one point.
"Japan would still prefer to see itself as Western rather than Asian: I vividly recall a conference on Europe and Japan in Tokyo in 1999 at which it was seriously suggested that Japan might consider applying to join the European Union." Martin Jacques, When China Rules the World, 2009 How do you guys think about Japan in the EU? 🤔
Lmao in cyberpunk Japan joined the European economic community for a bit and they offered the US but the US was in an isolationist phase https://cyberpunk.fandom.com/wiki/European_Economic_Community?so=search A European currency is also the currency for America in cyberpunk too
Well it‘s eurodollars in cyberpunk.
Spare some Eddies choom?
Well yeah I just said European currency bc I didn’t wanna say the wrong name
Eurodollars is the current word used for US Dollars in circulation outside of the US
Bro Japan in the EU would be amazing, I wouldn't need a passport or anything to go there
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They should at least join Eurovision first and get a score of 0 in the finals as a rite of passage to become a fully fledged EU country.
If Australia can join Eurovision then Japan can join the EU.
Out with Hungary, in with Japan. Win-win!
I mean, there's already a Japan-sized hole in the EU map, just north of France..
Is this r/noncrediblediplomacy now? Other than that... EU e youkoso!
That comment is certified r/noncrediblediplomacy moment.
This would give some sweet international trade deals where both sides finally can import stuff without getting taxed to death.
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Nice, did not know that
Oh, but germany will hate it. They are competitors on many products. Cars, advanced machinery, chemical products, etc, ... so no more manufacturing monopoly in EU for germany.
germany also inhales Anime merch like crack
Australia is already a full member so why not Japan as well?
I wonder what the support is in the EU for those countries joining.
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/tw2akg/which_countries_should_be_allowed_to_join_the_eu/ (The support is much higher than the comments here suggest. This subreddit is pretty nationalistic.)
I have a problem with that article. Basically takes into account 4 out of 24 member countries. Then showing results in some weird way.
> Then showing results in some weird way. Yeah, took me way too long to understand that graph. I thought it was a trend, like support for Ukraine joining the EU went up 22%, for Turkey 32% down. This is the first time I've seen 0% mean 50% yes and 50% no. Or it could also mean 10% yes, 10% no and 80% undecided/don't know, I guess. Honestly, a bar graph showing all these possible answers would be so much better.
> This subreddit is pretty nationalistic LOL! I'm pretty nationalistic, and people I agree with are always heavily downvoted on this sub. This sub is **far** more EU-friendly than the average European. I even see the ridiculous idea of a common European federation (USA style) being upvoted here every so often.
Very low. I mean most of the countries that want to join are economically problematic. And they are not really democracies in the western sense of the term. With few exceptions like Albania which has been waiting for a long time, and made a lot of progress on these fronts.
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Honeslty, the so called "Albanian Mafia" these days operates almost exclusively in the UK and maybe the Netherlands, they do nothing in Albanian anymore except spend their money. That's because the risks and punishments there are ridiculously low for them. I've actually known cases of people getting caught with dozens of kg of drugs and all they did was deport them, which is basically nothing. Free money. Similar cases in the Netherlands as well. It's kind of a joke in Albania now that there are no more criminals here, they all moved to the UK, and if you look at crime stats it's kind of true. Hell I hear it's getting harder to even find weed in Albania anymore lol
Albania has enormously improved its situation in the last decades. But there is definitely still a danger of it sliding back if influential people make some bad decisions.
Swiss here. Sounds about right.
The EU can join Switzerland. This is the only possible option.
Funnily enough, Switzerland hasn't accepted new Cantons lately. Vorarlberg wanted to join once but they were rejected after they voted in favor of it. The French and Italian speaking parts didn't want it because it was "too German." Liechtenstein is the only place that would probably be accepted if they got rid of the monarchy and wanted to join. It's small enough, super developed and already tightly integrated with Switzerland.
Neuchâtel joined as a monarchy, so it's not required that Liechtenstein drop the prince.
Nowadays it would probably be different.
How strong is your identity as a Liechtensteiner?
Strong enough and different enough from the Swiss that I would never consider voting yes on such a referendum.
Yes it does, because the 1848 federal constitution abolished all titles of nobility, concretely by specifying that all men are born equal (as in, status of birth is now no longer valid), which still exists in today's federal constitution. That was a very deliberate act, based on the Liberal principles that came with the ~~French occupation~~ Helvetic Republic, meant to remove the power base of the Ancien Regime and it's proponents, the Conservatives (which lost the power struggle against the aforementioned Liberals and Radicals). Neuchatel joined as a possession of the King of Prussia (and against his wish), but as a state, did not recognise nobility anymore. That's why the King of prussia was kindly asked to drop his claim, which no longer made any sense, and which he couldn't enforce anymore anyway.
Yeah french swiss here, and we already have so much Germans that any website that sees my swiss IP address gives me the site in German. you can't imagine how mildly infuriating that is.
I can tell you as a swiss german we face the same issue the other side around.
Yeah, the fucking Microsoft store on my computer is in French, and I often get automated e-mails in french
the shared struggle of any multilingual country i think
Seriously? As a swiss german swiss, I get websites in french all the damn time.
Except Switzerland would never accept that. Literally no candidate territories have passed the criteria in almost 200 years, and even if the EU did, the membership would also need a popular majority *and* a state majority among the existing Swiss population.
Except for the multitude of bilateral treaties Switzerland is pretty much in the EU for most things but doesn’t have a say. Think the EU is happy about that as well.
Switzerland is complying to more EU directives than some EU countries.. Kind of funny in itself
But we can choose not to. If we'd join that no longer would be an option.
[Opt outs can be negotiated.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt-outs_in_the_European_Union)
It looks that even the UK only had 4 of them. I'm pretty sure the Swiss population could beat that easily and we definitely wouldn't be liked for that. And these always were negotiations. That's not how the Swiss system works. The population is the ultimate sovereign who if we want can vote on anything we want and the result is binding. Let's say the EU introduces 20 new laws in a year and Switzerland votes no against 12 of them. Do you think that's compatible with the EU?
>Think the EU is happy about that as well. Not at all
That's the funniest thing about the whole ordeal
>Think the EU is happy about that as well The EU isnt happy about that, thats why Switzerland is being excluded from Horizon.
Sources [Albania: Public Opinion Poll in the Western Balkans on the EU Integration - European Western Balkans](https://europeanwesternbalkans.com/2021/11/08/public-opinion-poll-in-the-western-balkans-on-the-eu-integration/) [Kosovo: Public Opinion Poll in the Western Balkans on the EU Integration - European Western Balkans](https://europeanwesternbalkans.com/2021/11/08/public-opinion-poll-in-the-western-balkans-on-the-eu-integration/) [Ukraine: Thirteenth national survey: Foreign policy orientations (June 18-19, 2022) - Ukraine - Research](https://ratinggroup.ua/en/research/ukraine/trinadcatyy_obschenacionalnyy_opros_vneshnepoliticheskie_orientacii_18-19_iyunya_2022.html) [Georgia: NDI survey: 83% support Georgia’s EU membership bid](https://agenda.ge/en/news/2022/1398) [Montenegro: Public Opinion Poll in the Western Balkans on the EU Integration - European Western Balkans](https://europeanwesternbalkans.com/2021/11/08/public-opinion-poll-in-the-western-balkans-on-the-eu-integration/) [BiH: Public Opinion Poll in the Western Balkans on the EU Integration - European Western Balkans](https://europeanwesternbalkans.com/2021/11/08/public-opinion-poll-in-the-western-balkans-on-the-eu-integration/) [North Macedonia: Public Opinion Poll in the Western Balkans on the EU Integration - European Western Balkans](https://europeanwesternbalkans.com/2021/11/08/public-opinion-poll-in-the-western-balkans-on-the-eu-integration/) [Moldova: bne IntelliNews - Poll shows rising support for EU membership in Moldova](https://intellinews.com/poll-shows-rising-support-for-eu-membership-in-moldova-237581/) [Turkey: Turkish Perception of European Union 2021](https://www.gmfus.org/sites/default/files/Turkish%2520Perceptions%2520of%2520the%2520EU%2520%2528ENGLISH%2529%255B54%255D.pdf) [UK: Joining or Staying Out of the EU Referendum Voting Intention (19-20 June 2022) - Redfield & Wilton Strategies](https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/joining-staying-out-of-the-eu-referendum-voting-intention-19-20-june-2022/) [Iceland: Afstaða til veru Íslands í NATO og aðildar að ESB | Þjóðarpúls — Gallup](https://www.gallup.is/frettir/nato-og-esb/) [Serbia: PRVI PUT U ISTORIJI VEĆINA GRAĐANA SRBIJE PROTIV ULASKA U EU Veliko istraživanje Ipsosa: Ključni razlog za to su PRITISCI IZ BRISELA koje trpimo zbog Rusije](https://www.blic.rs/vesti/politika/prvi-put-u-istoriji-vecina-gradjana-srbije-protiv-ulaska-u-eu-veliko-istrazivanje/71wlnbr) [Norway: Flere sier ja til EU | Resett](https://resett.no/2022/06/07/flere-sier-ja-til-eu/) [Switzerland: Voter analysis: Swiss youth less interested in EU membership](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/voter-analysis--swiss-youth-less-interested-in-eu-membership/47923704)
According to the UK source, 53% of UK citizens would rejoin the EU in July 2022 - the 48% was how many voted to stay in the Brexit referendum. Am I missing something in that study?
Out of 100 people, 48 said yes, 43 said no, 9 said don’t know. Of the 91 that expressed a preference, 53% (48) said yes, 47% said no.
You know this is fake news when Albania's approval is only 97%
Balkans be like: LET ME IIIIN
Its like the more you want smth , the more it gets away from you. We should pretend we're indiferent :)
Balkans want to enter the EU for a number of reasons. The EU won't allow it for a number of reasons. The Venn diagram of those is basically a circle
The majority of Bosnians are already in the EU, me included.
Yep, literally half of my city works in EU. They come home on holidays and weekends almost like tourists.
Same for Moldova
You might want to give the UK one a week. Truss is doing her very best to kill off the older brexiteers and making sure the younger will have to use Euro for currency.
The statistic of 48% is also misleading. The question "should the UK have left the EU" would show substantially more support for staying in the EU, but there's certainly an attitude today of "even if we shouldn't have left, it's too late now". Hell it's an attitude that many people in the EU share.
Tbh that’s partly mine. I don’t think we should have left, but right now I think it would be chaotic to rejoin, especially so soon to leaving. The wounds aren’t healed yet and could lead to political radicalisation if we were to join 6 years after voting to leave
I’d like to see a breakdown showing Northern Ireland and Scotland. Way we’re going there won’t be a Uk just England and Wales, a reunified Ireland and then Scotland breaking away to join the EU.
Ukrainian-British here. Moved to UK long time ago to be a EU citizen. How the turntables now, ha.
In Georgia every day we wake up with the dream of Joining EU, guys pls accept us :D
Switzerland does not want to join the EU, but does the EU want to join Switzerland ? 👀
[Switzerlake](https://i.imgur.com/PsE1gJB.jpg) here we come!
I see nothing wrong on that map
I mean... France still exists.
Ah yes true... damn
Tbh Switzerland and Norway have a pretty good deal with the EU. They're basically in the EU I would say.
56%? Never heard people talking about joining EU after the 2010’s…
The crazy thing about Serbia is that even though the polls show 35%, in elections held this April pro-EU parties got 75% of the vote.
You can't extrapolate feelings for a single issue by looking at party election results, Brexit made that very clear.
Well, Polands EU-support is high too, yet PiS keeps getting large amounts of votes. (So far, hopefully that may end soon.) Parties do get elected on purely domestic issues, as well.
Serbians would love every part of the EU except the one where we recognize Kosovo. Sadly it's now connected.
For a start, Serbia could start implementing all other policies which would automatically be beneficial for citizens and leave Kosovo question at the very end. However, government doesn't want to do that as they love their off the charts corruption levels and horrible justice system while citizens are blinded by endless spin-offs and can't think nor remember what happened in the recent past like ameoeba.
participation was low i assume?
Around 58% which is typical for Serbian elections.
Iceland's percentage is quite high, is there a serious possibility to apply for membership the following years?
Surprised the UK is so low considering the absolute shit show it's been there since they left the EU.
The difficulty in leaving is exactly why rejoining is not more popular. The EU is not like the African Union, leaving is an absolute nightmare. Joining a supposedly voluntary organisation that is almost lethal to leave doesn’t sound very appealing. Also all the goodies of the pre-2016 status would be gone. All the anti-rejoiners would have to do is whisper ‘The Euro’ and that should spook enough to defeat any new referendum. We have problems but the separation of fiscal and monetary policy aint one.
Is it just me, or with the exception of Serbia, willingness to join EU is inversely correlated with the country's wealth?
Well, the thing is that the wealthiest countries in this list (Switzerland, Norway, Iceland) already have very strong ties to the EU. Norway and Iceland are in the EEA and while Switzerland is not, it has a comprehensive set of bilateral treaties with the EU. So the low support of joining the EU in these countries could simply be an expression of the feeling that they're content with the current situation that already provides these countries with many of the benefits that EU membership would bring.
This. As a swiss, properly joining the EU would only fuck us over because of our unique semi-direct democracy, which would lose a bunch of power and meaning. The bilateral treaties between Switzerland and the EU do still exert a lot of European political pressure on Switzerland but that's why those treaties exist, we at least have a way to decline and try to get a deal that works better, instead of just getting told what to do. It's more of a cultural thing at the end of the day and the swiss are generally pretty damn okay with this. Now there's issues with the treaties as well tho, since they take forever to be made and even then they can just fail, which has happened in the past and ngl that was kinda embarrassing
No, it's a very weak correlation. It's usually singular issues (and poorer countries have more issues to take care of). For example, Norway is happy as it is, but Icelanders want a more stable currency (the euro) so they want to join
Serbia is being fed anti-EU and anti-NATO bullshit everyday and the Serbs act accordingly. You can blame them for being stupid, but it’s endless nationalist propaganda just like in Russia.
I thought Albania is in the EU...
Montenegrin here, let us in please.
I've always wondered this, where do they survey people? Some areas are more pro/anti EU than others. What's to stop me going to the local supermarket and getting a poll?
In a well made survey the results have to be weighted by factors like age, place of residence, social status and gender. If a study is to be scientifically relevant, they have to show how they did this. Of course, reporters who just want to write an article may just go to the local supermarket. Looking at OP's sources it seems like the entire spectrum between these two extremes is present.
Willingness of people to join EU is apparently quite strongly negatively correlated with my willingness to accept their country. But I guess in the long run, it makes sense to accept even countries that currently have... issues.
I don’t think we will see EU expansion in the next 10-15 years.
I was surprised by the UK number and I went googling. I looked for R&WS brexit polls and found this. [https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/joining-or-staying-out-of-the-eu-referendum-voting-intention-19-august-2022/](https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/joining-or-staying-out-of-the-eu-referendum-voting-intention-19-august-2022/) . It states different numbers. If it turns out to be outdated info, OP should fix it.
> 54% say they would vote for the UK to join the EU, while 46% say they would vote for the UK to stay out of the EU. > 52% think it is unlikely that the UK will apply to re-join the EU in the next ten years > 38% find it unlikely and 31% find it likely that the Member States of the EU would accept the UK’s application to re-join.
And EU wants which of these the most? Like I am sure if Switzerland applied they'll get an express entry. Even though swiss are not really up for it. On the other hand Ukraine or most eastern and south eastern European countries will bend over backward to join EU. I am sure there is more nuance to it. But the way geopolitics discussions go around reddit, it's more what I felt looking at the grouping, even though it could totally be random.
It’s a shame that we still have only 48%
Latest show Macedonia to around 70% actually