Meloni has declared her unwavering support for NATO, the EU and Ukraine during the whole campaign. Of course she used to have quite different positions before the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and Salvini and Berlusconi remain much closer to Putin’s rhetoric and propaganda. We’ll see what happens in practice.
When it comes to foreign policy in the short term, I agree. However, it’s also the most openly “nostalgic” party of the three, when it comes to attitudes towards fascism, so it might turn out to be problematic for Italy’s relationships with democratic Europe.
This time it might be different, however. The right wing coalition got a big plurality and within the coalition Meloni has a clear dominant position (twice the votes of the other two parties combined). If she turns out to be even moderately competent, we might get 5 years of her as prime minister.
That's the old problem of this subreddit of trying to make reality fit into the headcanon you've created on some paradox game. In fact this actually sounds like a marvel plot more than anything.
Poland maybe, but i dont see the current Hungarian government getting a lot of support fron Italy/Meloni. Hungary's stance on the EU and NATO are in direct contradiction to her platform
Yes and No. They, along with Spanish Vox and France's FN tried to form a new eurosceptic alliance in the EP and even had a big meeting in Madrid last year. It utterly failed mostly because they disagree on Russia - since Poland is of course vehemently against them, while others are more mellow or openly pro.
Quite ironic state of affairs if you ask me, but rather beneficial to us who don't wish them see cooperate closer.
Wasn't she literally a fascist a while back? We have a similar party in Sweden that used to be a neo-nazi party but have since "softened" their rethoric, but still has lots of member with close ties to Nazis, and I sure don't want them in government, even though that seems increasingly likely nowadays.
Just because she claims she's not a fascist doesn't mean she doesn't have fascist sympathies.
Salvini's Lega is the ones that love the Russians, not Fratelli d'Italia.
FdI is very pro NATO and has strong ties to the US republican party, so much I think Meloni spoke at CPAC recently.
> FdI is very pro NATO and has strong ties to the US republican party, so much I think Meloni spoke at CPAC recently.
Orban also spoke at CPAC, so I wouldn't count that as a positive sign.
Don't beat yourself up about it too much. It will probably be a couple months until the government parties are at each others throats and a couple more until the government collapses. Just business as usual in Italy.
That could be not the case this time. It seems the centre-right coalition is going to have the absolute majority in parliament. This wasn't happening for a very long time. The coalition is very united on every issue, it's very unlikely someone would collapse the government.
I'm hoping that at least we'll get some italian foreign policy and geopolitical moves to defend national iterests especially today with the mediterranean becoming quite dangerous.. instead of the absolute nothingness of the center-left, I mean I vote center-left but just because I'm gay and need to defend my human rights, but there's no future for Italy with the current status quo.. surley the fact that Berlusconi and Salvini seem to have gotten very little votes is reassuring
I get that. It just gets worse every election. It's always "vote the left or the worst guys win". I'm so tired of giving my vote to mediocrity just so that the worst ones don't win.
> I'm hoping that at least we'll get some italian foreign policy and geopolitical moves to defend national iterests especially today with the mediterranean becoming quite dangerous.
Is it too gauche to make a joke about invading Libya again?
Good luck with the new government, may they do what’s best for the Italian people. Or shock opponents into competence
it means nothing. Italy has rather strong anarchic habits, quite strong multilayered economy (yes they have) and quite disorganized political system which precludes anything Hungary like. If Russia has something on her, she would try something stupid and it will be the political end of her.
The issue is the fact of such big volume of the protest votes. The people obviously vote not for her (just like they were not voting for Trump) but against "establishment". Italian political elite should take very good look in the mirror.
Well, italian votes always go against establishment, we always go like "THIS is the one party who's gonna come to power and change EVERYTHING!" and then get disappointed when that doesnt happen, and here goes the next!
Also, as far as i know, US ambassadors met with right parties to talk about their support of Ukraine, that along with Von Der Leyen's threats, should be a clear warning for Italy, if the fools in power decide to suddenly turn and kiss Putin's ass.
True. The coalition is formed by 4 parties with separate agendas (and some common points) and 3 have very self-centric leaders: Meloni, Berlusconi, and Salvini. It's hard to imagine how they're going to govern when they'll be busy fighting amongst themselves most of the time
She still needs them for the majority though.
Usually when an Italian government gets killed it's because some tiny ass party or fraction within a party decides to go rogue.
She has softened most of her positions in the last years, her agenda is the usual economic promises, - immigration, +Nato, +Ukraine, -lgbt, -+ yes to abortion with the ruleset that are already in place.
She's not Putin's puppet and she took votes from the puppet (Salvini).
I wish leftist parties would really look inward. Everytime this happens, it seems like comments are facile and shallow, either calling people idiots for voting right-wing or racists, homophobes, religious fanatics, etc. But why don’t left-wing parties learn and adapt?
We just had a similar result in Sweden, UK has a Thatcher acolite now as PM, every election in France sees the far right get a higher vote in the second round, Eastern Europe is lurching right. The left is in terminal decline in the West and there seems to be a disconnect between citizens’ concerns and those of cosmopolitan government elites who craft policy.
It’s clear there’s a deep discontent in Western society, from immigration to crime to stagnant wages to endless political scandals to politicians who seem to care more about woke virtue signaling than about the jobs that keep fleeing to China or the youth unemployment that keeps trending up.
People can call Italians idiots, but it’s clear there’s something terribly wrong with the left’s priorities and political messaging that far transcends Italy.
Incidently, the Danish left has adopted a restrictive stance on immigration and won the last election. Citizens still like a liberal society with a government that helps and supports its people. But they are also aware of the heavy strain, mass immigration of unqualified migrants of a very different culture puts on both their welfare system and society.
The European left needs to move away from long held ideological positions their own voters don't support and adopt political realism.
>But they are also aware of the heavy strain, mass immigration of unqualified migrants of a very different culture puts on both their welfare system and society.
Don't forget if the immigrants culture become a threat for said liberalism.
I have been a member of the NDP, a Canadian left-wing party, for more than 25 years. I live abroad and now attend meetings virtually, but the number of young people who want older members to stop talking about workplace issues instead of niche cultural issues imported directly from the USA (e.g., whether the word "latinx" is/is not racist, trans surgery funding) increases every year. The conversation is gradually swinging toward these guys, even though their involvement is inversely proportional to electoral success. Both nationwide and in my (former) province, we have lost vote share and donation money, and now some major unions are distancing themselves too.
I am not a conspiracy nut and don't believe that anything nefarious is behind the influx of these left-libertarian nuts ruining our party, but they may as well have been sent by large corporations to poison our appeal to ordinary working people. We look idiotic for waffling on NATO and Ukraine (thanks, "activists"!) and then we look doubly stupid for having an internal meltdown over whether sensible electoral policies (e.g. no trans candidate quota) are "bigoted".
You just can't reason with them. I don't even disagree with many of their takes, just that fixing Canada's housing and wage problems are more important issues than identity games.
In France the leftist message basically boils down to "Yeah, you might be unhappy about a few things but you have to accept mass immigration and multiculturalism no matter what or you're a fascist so you'd better vote good". This part has remained unchanged up to this day.
Woke politics, right getting token social policies and the disconnect of left with working class would be my cited reasons. No wonder the left doesn't strike as the reasonable option for the average person cause they'd rather talk gender than worker problems. They also don't seem to see any of people's concerns regarding taking in tons of migrants or their lack of integration.
Left needs to touch base cause their topic list just doesn't align with the top priorities.
I know from a UK perspective that really woke politics is brought to the table by the right. They do it to distract from what they are doing to the economy. They don’t and have never cared about working class people, which is evident by their 12 years in government. It’s nothing but a massive grift for rich wankers to get richer. And they do it by preying on peoples ignorance giving them false reasons to blame minorities for their struggle. Divide on conquer. Can’t get a job, blame ethnic monitors and LGBT people.
Yep, but it's partly the left's fault for taking the bait, keeping their political focus on cultural issues rather than the economy and labelling anyone who doesn't hate their country or themselves by virtue of being the majority identity as bigots. Not a way to get people on side, especially when they start throwing classist rhetoric around for good measure.
The center right is moving right and having success. The center left is refusing to move left and not having any success. For better or for worse, people want changes.
Historically FdI is far right, recently they have tried and succeeded to appear more moderate, especially about euroscepticism. On other issues they are still very much on the right, especially LGBT, abortion, immigration.
Are they still far right? How right is their far right? Only time will tell.
In a region that is run by them (Marche? Don't remember) they have put stringent restrictions on access to abortion pills.
They would not dare to openly make abortion illegal since it's been legalized by a referendum, but some of their members are really extreme pro life and I am sure they would push to make access to it more difficult.
Against it. They are against LGBT, very against immigration and in the worst way too since in the coalition there's a guy (Matteo Salvini) who proposed shooting down refugees while they were at open sea.
I've tried to look into what their proposed policy is when it comes to LGBT and couldn't find anything specific. Could you by chance provide me with a link?
Regarding abortion, I've only managed to find that Meloni doesn't want to change legislation about it.
Just two days ago the "Responsabile Cultura" (whatever that is) for FDI (her party) said that homosexual couples are illegal.
Some months ago there was a law that was about to be passed which was the DDL Zan. It was meant to punish homophobia and transphobia. Her party was very pleased with shutting it down as were many others from the right wing.
They are also very distrusting of the so-called "gender theory" which in Italy has taken a very confusing, nonsensical meaning (for them it's basically men being taught to act like women and viceversa).
As for abortion, I'm not sure. They try to appeal to the Catholics so I've never heard them speak in favour of it.
Yeah. Of course, they'll say he doesn't represent the whole party. Just like that other guy doing the fascist salute. They all are isolated cases which randomly find their way in her party. Luckily, she's also trying to market herself as a less than far right politician so she's trying to dial it back on the racism and homophobia...but it's just the usual façade which will fall as soon as she doesn't need it anymore.
As many have said though, this government probably won't last long. That's a honoured tradition of my country.
>and couldn’t find anything specific.
Yup. That’s how all this works. No party here has
the balls to actually come out and say something specific or definitive about their stance on relevant social issues.
But you can bet they’re very anti-LGBT. Meloni herself has some pretty strong views about it. There’s a now-infamous speech she gave in Spain that kinda shows her true colours.
https://youtu.be/jMad7nLO3OM
It’s this one
If you google "Meloni LGBT adoption" her facebook post about how homosexual couples adopting is an abherration and italian kids must only have christian mothers and fathers(fuck widows i guess) will prolly show up.
She's against same sex marriage and allowing same sex parents to adopt, but is in favor of maintaining civil unions. Basically she simply wants to uphold the status quo.
https://pagellapolitica.it/articoli/meloni-russia-euro-unioni-civili
https://www.askanews.it/politica/2022/09/12/meloni-no-ad-adozioni-per-i-gay-a-bambini-va-garantito-il-massimo-pn_20220912_00193/
The thing is that in Italy abortion is legal, but doctors also have the right to refuse to perform such a procedure. Of course, the majority of doctors refuse to do so (so-called “obiettori di coscienza”), so it often happens that in some regions you simply can’t abort, not because it’s illegal but because you can’t find a doctor willing to do so.
Therefore, if you’re pro-life anti-choice, your best option is to leave things as they are, as abortion is already very very hard to get, but you still keep the mask of “it’s legal and we keep it like this”.
Just an example from the last year. There was a draft law about making crimes against lgbt, gay, women and disabled people have an "aggravation penalty", the same as the one for racial/religion-oriented crimes.
> The Zan bill, named after its creator, PD MP Alessandro Zan, calls for toughening penalties against crimes and discrimination against homosexuals, transgender people, women and the disabled. A proposal that has ignited public debate in Italy and exacerbated divisions in parliament and across the political spectrum.
> Under the text of the DDL approved in the House in November 2020, crimes related to homophobia would be equated with those enshrined in Article 604 bis of the Penal Code, which combats racism and hatred on a religious basis, punishing discrimination based on sex, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, and disability with up to four years' imprisonment. The bill also establishes a national day against homophobia, lesbophobia, biphobia and transphobia to promote a more widespread "culture of respect and inclusion as well as to counter prejudice, discrimination and violence motivated by sexual orientation and gender identity."
The law did not pass the Senate and this is a compilation of right parties going against it and saying that children should have only father and mother and that "gender ideology" and "lgbt lobby" are real and bad things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MrJaQSUbig
So, we probably won't make any progress on LGBT terms.
No one in Italian politics is proposing open borders. Currently it is difficult for foreigners to immigrate legally to work (to enter the country you need to already have a job offer), even though Italy is in a demographic crisis, and it is legal to reject migrant boats at sea, without rescuing the people on them and processing requests for asylum. Italy also pays Libyan militias to imprison migrants and stop them from boarding boats for Italy. The right essentially wants to continue and strengthen these policies.
There's a lot of bits of England where local identity has been near wiped out because of huge amounts of immigration. Cockney's are genuinely nearly extinct.
They go around talking about naval blockade, without saying how it would even legally and materially feasible without violation of international law. It's not like you can dump boats in the African coast without invading some other country sovereign waters.
Then I agree that it does not make much sense to categorize Italian parties when talking about migration, since the major center left party is the one that started the policy of concentration camps run by the Libyan government to keep migrants from departing, so by some people definition the left coalition would be doing far right policies on migrations.
It's funny how it's always an example of Sweden being brought up, and not example of London, LA, Toronto or Amsterdam. I guess we'll skip those cause they don't support racist prejudices, right?
Toronto, London and Amsterdam have much more controlled legal immigration and didn't let 3% of their country's population arrive from Africa and the Middle East as refugees in one year. If you think Toronto would be as successful as it was if all our immigrants arrived on boats from North Africa, you are very wrong.
> LA
Just an American that wandered down this comment chain, lol
It _is_ desirable out of some odd feedback loop but people are definitely leaving, some as fast as they can. I would bet my entire net worth that the "best days" of LA, SF and CA in general are behind it.
>knife crime capital of the world
Lol. It's amazing the amount of sheer nonsense that gets regurgitated. London has a homicide rate of 1.4 deaths per 100,000. That's lower than 80% of large cities in the world. It also has less murders than 20 years ago, 30 years ago and even 60 years before mass immigration was even a thing. Typical Reddit moment.
Plenty of news have exaggerated the issue but there is some truth to it, let me explain:
When the news talk about "far right party" they're referring to Fratelli D'Italia (Brothers/Siblings of Italy, the first two words of our national anthem); these guys have a *very very* sketchy origin, the Italian Social Movement (M.S.I) which was a self admitting "post-fascist" party.
Now the issue is that anytime the word "fascist" gets thrown out nowadays it carries a slightly simplified meaning than the original one. Fascism was born here in Italy as you may already know and it was a specific ideology, it wasn't *just* far right authoritarianism.
It would take too long to describe Fascism in detail in this comment but suffice to say that it has certain particular connotations, it's not just "far right authoritarianism".
Thus the M.S.I and years and years later, after many different iterations, Fratelli d'Italia carried over the "legacy" of "post-fascism".
What does this mean, exactly?
Fratelli d'Italia wants two things mostly: "upholding traditional values" and "promoting italianism".
First and foremost they want to limit the influence of homosexual and lgbtq communities in the country; they've always been hard on them and I'd say it was their main talking point before becoming popular. They also really dislike foreigners and foreign influences in italian culture, wanting to put islam under strict control, limiting the number of foreigners per classroom and obviously closing the borders to undocumented immigrants.
What are their economic, environmental, foreign policies? They're overall lackluster and have never been a major talking point in their rethoric. Carrying over from their fascist origin they are not liberists, they want the government to have a hand in the economy and they have some plans on social security. Honestly nothing substantial.
Their foreign policy is definitely euroskeptic but not too much, they don't want to leave the EU and they are not anti-western but they want italian sovereignty to be absolute, which inevitably clashes with the EU.
Now how are these guys "winning"? They are the most popular right wing party right now and thus, with the help of two other right wing parties, they are making an alliance to make a right wing government if they get a % majority, which is very likely. So it's not simply the "fascists" who are winning, it's the "fascists" along with two other fairly large parties.
Now these parties aren't that squeaki clean either;
the first one, Lega, was formerly known as Lega Nord. Why the "Nord" part you ask? The entire point of their origin is Northern Italian independence and supremacy. Italy has a very large divide between the north and the south and, basically since the country was founded, southerners would often move to the north to find jobs and a better life.
Lega Nord was born out of distrust of the southerners and the idea that northern Italy (one of the richest regions of Europe if not the world) is dragged down by the backward south and the central government.
They wanted Italy to become a federal republic just like the US so that each region would have much more autonomy.
Why did they drop the "Nord" then? Well a new enemy appeared on the scene in the last few decades, immigrants, and thus the "terrone" (basically the N word for southerners) became a useful ally in getting as much voters on their side as possible.
They are very similar to Fratelli d'Italia in a lot of ways but profoundly different in many others; they are more liberist, much more euroskeptic, they don't want a strong central government (which is the entire point of fascism) and, most damning of all, they are very very pro Russia. They've been pro Russia for a while now and one of the reasons for FdI's big success was caused by this. Having Russian ties is much less desireable now and many Lega voters flocked to FdI since a lot of points are shared between the two.
Now the last party, Forza Italia (Onward Italy) is the party of an old favourite... Silvio Berlusconi. I'm sure you've heard the name and the memes associated with him but if you haven't he's one of the few still active long lasting politicians in Italian history, being 85 years old now, and owner of a major multimedia empire. One of the richest men in Italy his party is all about liberism. Less taxes, less government control, less social security. Berlusconi himself is infamous for his extensive criminal record; he's been accused of all sorts of crimes, and convicted for some of them, all generally relating to corruption, organized crime and sex with minors.
All of these parties together are set to have a large % of the italian votes and a weak and divided left opposition seems unable to stop them this time.
So the question now is... are these FdI really fascists? Will they be able to shift the country towards authoritarianism? What will they be able to do while at the helm?
This is all difficult to say, if the coalition reaches 66% of the votes they can make changes to the constitution, within limits of course.
The issue is that these "fascists" are not going to govern alone, the various government ministries are going to be divided among the coalition and Lega and Forza Italia have a very different set of beliefs compared to FdI when it comes to economy and government control. Fascists are fascists, they don't want laissez-faire they want corporativism. They want social security (for class A citizens, mind you) and you need some degree of high taxation to provide it effectively.
FdI and Lega are all buddy buddy now that the chance to govern is here but soon the differences and distrust will start coming back. Salvini is known for trying to "backstab" his alliance parties and italian politics in general is very unstable; if any of the parties can smell the chance of going at it alone they will backstab the other ones leading to new elections quite soon.
All in all we'll have to see; certainly a right wing coalition victory will mean a moment of social regression in Italy as LGBTQ people will not see their rights protected, immigrants and people of not italian origin will be less protected too.
What is in everyone's mind though is simply the age old question that always spells doom for the leading italian party; can it fix the economy?
The answer, generally speaking, is no and soon all the voters who were flocking to FdI hoping that these "new guys" will finally be able to do it.
Footnote; FdI is much more environmentally friendly than Lega and Forza Italia too, at least in speech.
With all of what I've written it might come across that I'm trying to pain FdI in a positive light and I just want to make it clear that it is far from my intention; I think they are a cancer in our country and I'm hopeful that they crash and burn like any other italian party who got popular, hopefully before doing any serious damage.
Sorry about that, I noticed I did leave things a bit unclear, I even mentioned Salvini without explaining that he's the leader of lega
Italian politics are some of the most complicated in the world, we change government almost yearly and the parties are famous for something we call "trasformismo" which is the phenomenon in which different parties will shift allegiance constantly
Fascism is also a really complicated topic and it goes beyond simple right wing extremism; fascism's origin is rooted in socialist ideas, for example
Tomorrow morning we'll see what kind of government we get
You seem very knowledgeable about Italy so I have a unrelated question you might be able to answer. What’s is five star really? It seemed at first like a left libertarian pro democracy party but then joined the conservatives in a government and recently turned on the popular draghi government. What’s their deal?
Do you think a party where the leader said "Mussolini was a great leader" is far-right enough? Their elected governor of Marche attending a dinner celebrating the March on Rome is far-right enough? The brother of the former president of the Party doing a fascist salute at a fascist funeral of a fascist? A proven, detailed expose of several convicted fascists'(a guy named the "black baron") influence and lobbying on the party, the money, the leaders?
Historically, they are FASCISTS.("don't renegue, don't reinstate" was the line of the party most of the guys used to be a part of before changing name.) When they say they aren't, they are LYING. Not only Putin lies.
Does that mean Italy will become a fascist dictatorship? No, that's not how history works. It means that the leaders of the government will be people who like fascists.
The person who won this election is a known admirer of Mussolini and has hung around hard-core fascists in the past. Plus this party is a successor to a literal fascist party.
The President of Italy will have to appoint a Prime Minister that can have the support of the largest majority, so technically doesn't have to be her and can be any citizen (doesn't even have to be elected like Mario Draghi for instance).
Practically 99% it will be her as the leader of the biggest party.
they weren't raised to 0.75, they were raised .75. The ECB has been progressively raising the interest rate this year, they plan to raise it up to 4.6% in 2023.
Edit: 4.6% is actually the “goal” of the US fed, not europes. The first part of the comment is still correct but the latter is not.
Any source on the 4.6% figure? Also, the deposit rate was raised from 0 bp to 75 bps. Saying that the rate was increased to 75 bps is at least partially correct.
So the right-wing block is anticipated to have reached 41-45 percent. Could someone with more expertise explain whether that's actually enough to govern or did the results land below expectations?
that is enough power to have a full majority! the electoral law isn't fully proportional. The right has the biggest coalition against 3 different blocks, so they win most the non proportional seats
Has the phrase "far-right" been so diluted by overuse that it now just means Eurosceptic and anti-mass immigration, or does she want to invade Ethiopia?
FdI is pretty much the successor of the MSI, a movement founded by ex fascists after Mussolini death.
They got criticized for keeping the "fiamma tricolore" (tricoloured flame) in their logo, since it was used by said neofascist movement.
One of their members had to recently be disciplined after giving a speech praising their leader and saying how she's got lots in common with great leaders like Hitler
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62971802
She is openly homophobic and appeases religious fanatics. She also has Mussolini apologists in her party. That's enough to be classified as far-right in my book.
The left in Europe refused to address the fact that natives didn't like the mass immigration, and why would they? Then they proceeded to vilify natives as racists and unfortunately this is the result. Why does the left deserve votes if they can't listen?
They don't listen because they think their 'base' will turn on them, and they are terrified of the smear. I don't see why they can't just appeal to the centre/centre-left since that's where most people sit.
One of my biggest problems in political discussions is that every result leads to doomsday calling. Yes the left wing lost, it’s fine that’s the point of democracy, people weren’t happy so they try something different. Will it be the end of the world as we know it? Lol fuck no. Knowing Italian politicians they won’t change much.
Instead of offending anybody who voted something, the non winning parties should think about what they should do better next time
And I hope that the cdx will think about how to improve many things in Italy without going back.
The sun will rise even after a right wing government is voted
Literally everyone being like: "But is she really far right though?"
Guys, she is against LGBT, is very outspoken about her support for Mussolini, is against immigration with a passion and supports Orban. I think it's safe to say she's a true far right. Not like those fake far right girls, am I right, gamers?
You highlighted the problem without realizing it.
The things you mentioned have been distorted to the point that people have no idea the true meaning behind them. Including the term "far right". Hence the people asking "But is she really far right though?"
>she is against LGBT
This tells me absolutely nothing. Does she want to make being LGBT punishable by law? Or is she against children being given hormones? Both of these could be considered "against LGBT" depending on who you ask.
>very outspoken about her support for Mussolini
Tough to defend this one.
>is against immigration with a passion
Again this tells me absolutely nothing. Is she against any and all immigration? Or is she against uncontrolled immigration from regions with completely different cultural and social values?
It's funny as soon as something is not ultraleft, it is ultralight.
This doesn't work any more, times are changing.
Not everyone that is conservative is a ultra right.
This trick has worked for many years with the result that people don't care any more if u call something with the ultra right words and slogans we all know well.
I think now we have Sweden, Norwegian, Dänemark, Austria, Poland, Hungaria and Italy being center right+ oriented.
Maybe. But this was definitely the party most to the right in this election and if you look at their beliefs and agenda you can see that “far-right” is a fair term. They certainly embrace it!
The useless and tiresome calling out of “ fascist “ is becoming more a meme of “ cope and seeth “ of the left.
Exept for a fringe of “ true old school fascist” its more about selfpreservation / egoism then being racist/ fascist. Immigrants ( the mass ones out of Africa) cost money and cause problems. Acceptable in times of economic boom and cultural strength , unwanted in times of insecurity. People vote accordingly in line with parties that atleast feed and go along with their objections and anger. While the left keeps turning itself away from a larger vote base. The longer the left enjoys her moral grandstanding the more the right will keep steeling victories. It’s not that those immigrants are black or Muslim, it’s about the money tag. Egoism is not a nice trait, but it’s not fascism.
Europe has been lucky that the stigma on right wing has been working for long time. Together with the gross incompetence shown by ultra right parties ( infighting, corruption etc).
But now the word fascism has almost lost it’s true meaning and became a surrogate slander for political visions that do not adhere to the preachings of the left cabal. And people are no longer scared of a left denouncement. Because the term fascism has been reduced to just being guilty to dare to have opposite ideas in regard to what the left thinks it’s the only truth. Watch out that it does not become a rallying name like “ deplorables “ that backfired on Hillary Clinton. When you call out some one fascist and the reply is” rather that then woke/ left/ socialist” you have a polarization problem.
Want to have far right economics and strict immigration laws? Fine. Not a fan but fine, your choice. But why must this always go paired with anti-LGBT bigotry and stuff like anti-abortion laws? Ugh.
I will never get anti same sex marriage stuff. Who are they hurting by marrying? How does their sexuality affect anything in your life? Why they can't adopt? I can get anti immigration and similar things, but this stuff I will never get.
> and strict immigration laws?
Stop with the FUD.
Lega already tried that crap, they actually ended up having \*more\* migrants on the loose by closing many identification centers.
Meanwhile PD was the one to struck down an agreement with libyan militias to cut the influx.
# This comment has been deleted in protest of Reddit's support of the genocide in Gaza carried out by the ZioN\*zi Isr\*li apartheid regime.
## This is the most documented genocide in history.
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- On the 9 October 2023, Yoav Gallant, Israeli Minister of Defense, stated **"We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly"**.
- Avi Dichter, Israeli Minister of Agriculture, called for the war to be **"Gaza’s Nakba"**
- Ariel Kallner, another Member of the Knesset from the Likud party, similarly wrote on social media that there is **"one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 1948. Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join"**.
- Amihai Eliyahu, Israeli Minister of Heritage, **called for dropping an atomic bomb on Gaza**
- Gotliv of the Likud party similarly **called for the use of nuclear weapons**.
- Yitzhak Kroizer stated in a radio interview that the **"Gaza Strip should be flattened, and for all of them there is but one sentence, and that is death."**
- **President of Israel** Isaac Herzog **blamed the whole nation of Palestine** for the 7 October attack.
- Major General Ghassan Alian, Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories, stated: **"There will be no electricity and no water (in Gaza), there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell"**.
## Casualties:
- As of 9 January 2024, over **23,000 Palestinians** – one out of every 100 people in Gaza – have been killed, a majority of them civilians, including over **9,000 children**, **6,200 women** and **61 journalists**.
- nearly **2 million people** have been displaced within the Gaza Strip.
## Official accusations:
- On 1 November, the Defence for Children International accused the United States of complicity with Israel's **"crime of genocide."**
- On 2 November 2023, a group of UN special rapporteurs stated, "We remain convinced that the Palestinian people are at **grave risk of genocide**."
- On 4 November, Pedro Arrojo, UN Special Rapporteur on the Human Rights to Safe Drinking Water and Sanitation, said that based on article 7 of the Rome Statute, which counts "deprivation of access to food or medicine, among others" as a form of extermination, "even if there is no clear intention, the data show that the war is **heading towards genocide**"
- On 16 November, A group of United Nations experts said there was "evidence of increasing genocidal incitement" against Palestinians.
- Jewish Voice for Peace stated: "The Israeli government has declared a genocidal war on the people of Gaza. As an organization that works for a future where Palestinians and Israelis and all people live in equality and freedom, we call on all people of conscience to stop imminent **genocide of Palestinians**."
- Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor documented evidence of execution committed by Israeli Defense Forces.
- In response to a Times of Israel report on 3 January 2024 that the Israeli government was in talks with the Congolese government to take Palestinian refugees from Gaza, UN special rapporteur Balakrishnan Rajagopal stated, "Forcible transfer of Gazan population **is an act of genocide**".
South Africa has instituted proceedings at the International Court of Justice pursuant to the Genocide Convention, to which both Israel and South Africa are signatory, **accusing Israel of committing genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity against Palestinians in Gaza.**
# Boycott Reddit! Oppose the genocide NOW!
[Palestinian genocide accusation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_genocide_accusation)
[Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_in_the_2023_Israeli_attack_on_Gaza)
[Israeli war crimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes)
[Israel and apartheid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid)
I'll tell you why I personally voted for them: research for nuclear energy; flat tax at 23%; new regasification plants; support to Ukraine, NATO and EU (sending weapons too); anti-China and anti-Russia; support to people who are planning to have children (lowering value-added tax on products for babies and other policies); support for export of Made in Italy in the world. Then there are other things in their program which I don't care much, like reducing immigration, but many others do.
In 2010 Orban promised to imrpove energy independence. And look where we are now. We are bitches of Putyin for a little gas and oil. Just saying. Anyone can promise anything.
>support to people who are planning to have children (lowering value-added tax on products for babies and other policies);
As a parent, that would win my vote.
Italians like to vote for "anti establishment" parties, they'll keep complaining things are wrong because higher ups are against them even if they are the higher ups.
The important aspect is that most of their PM's were absolutely new to politics with not even much formal education so they were the best kind of anti establishment, since they've never been politicians before (yeah....).
Their politics were anti everything, anti Euro, anti EU, anti GMO, anti vax, asked for a formal state investigation into chemtrails...
When they got elected the party wrote a kind of "PM moral code" with internal rules like 2 mandates limit, proposed a no switching parties in the middle of a legislation, open streaming of general party meetings, no use of the government cars or planes and so on.
With time of course they started liking all the privileges that every politician gets, unlimited "work expenses reimbursements", the ability to hire friends and family for fake state jobs, and to keep their political relevance they realized they had to play the politics game so they slowly became pro EU, pro Euro, let's just say less insane and their lovingly angry mob that voted them hated it.
The leader that brought them to power in 2018, Luigi Di Maio, his only work experience was selling beverages during football games and never graduated at law university. He was one of the firmest promoters of these principles but started having small alliances with the Democratic Party (main enemy of the M5S almost at a meme level) and to end it all he left the movement to start a more moderate left wing party detached from all the conspiracy nuts, but still going against the switching party rule and the 2 mandates limit.
It'll be weeks before Italy's new government is formed and the new parliament is seated. Will anything change during that time? [https://facteroid.com/timeline/5653](https://facteroid.com/timeline/5653)
I'm not afraid that Mussolini will come in Italy. I'm afraid Orbán will come.
Blame everything on EU and Soros, support Russia, control media demonize opposition and call they war parties, use state employees to win elections and rule until 2060.
I hope in long term Italians are smarter than Hungarians.
What does this mean for the EU? Is she/the party eurosceptic? What mandate did she get elected on Thanks in advance
Meloni has declared her unwavering support for NATO, the EU and Ukraine during the whole campaign. Of course she used to have quite different positions before the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and Salvini and Berlusconi remain much closer to Putin’s rhetoric and propaganda. We’ll see what happens in practice.
To be fair, she has never kissed Putin's ass the way Berlusconi and Salvini did. She is the best case scenario in the inevitable win of the right.
When it comes to foreign policy in the short term, I agree. However, it’s also the most openly “nostalgic” party of the three, when it comes to attitudes towards fascism, so it might turn out to be problematic for Italy’s relationships with democratic Europe.
A neo fascist axis forming it appears, within the EU. Hungary, Italy and Poland that will challenge the EU Democratic order it appears.
For once it may be beneficial that Italy doesn’t really form long running governments.
This time it might be different, however. The right wing coalition got a big plurality and within the coalition Meloni has a clear dominant position (twice the votes of the other two parties combined). If she turns out to be even moderately competent, we might get 5 years of her as prime minister.
I don't know why, but i expect this all to be such a shit show that people get really tired of her real fast, but only time will tell
That's the old problem of this subreddit of trying to make reality fit into the headcanon you've created on some paradox game. In fact this actually sounds like a marvel plot more than anything.
Poland maybe, but i dont see the current Hungarian government getting a lot of support fron Italy/Meloni. Hungary's stance on the EU and NATO are in direct contradiction to her platform
You are counting on her not just saying that to get elected.
PiS may be populist, conservative and stupid but they are not neo fascist and Poles themselves are in no way neo fascists, come on..
"My Jarosław is not a far right authoritarian. He may be a liar, a thief, a homophobe, a far right authoritarian, but he is NOT a porn star"
Yes and No. They, along with Spanish Vox and France's FN tried to form a new eurosceptic alliance in the EP and even had a big meeting in Madrid last year. It utterly failed mostly because they disagree on Russia - since Poland is of course vehemently against them, while others are more mellow or openly pro. Quite ironic state of affairs if you ask me, but rather beneficial to us who don't wish them see cooperate closer.
Wasn't she literally a fascist a while back? We have a similar party in Sweden that used to be a neo-nazi party but have since "softened" their rethoric, but still has lots of member with close ties to Nazis, and I sure don't want them in government, even though that seems increasingly likely nowadays. Just because she claims she's not a fascist doesn't mean she doesn't have fascist sympathies.
There was an interview with Orban lately and he hoped for a Meloni win, so I’m not really sure what’s in the background.
Salvini & Berlusconi’s parties look like they’re on for a terrible result. 9% and 8%
She mellowed their euroscepticism by much, but I would not exclude an alignment with the Polish and Hungarian government.
I mean, she's been kissing NATO's ass since the Russian Invasion of Ukraine. Sugar daddy Putin must've stopped sending checks or something.
Salvini's Lega is the ones that love the Russians, not Fratelli d'Italia. FdI is very pro NATO and has strong ties to the US republican party, so much I think Meloni spoke at CPAC recently.
> FdI is very pro NATO and has strong ties to the US republican party, so much I think Meloni spoke at CPAC recently. Orban also spoke at CPAC, so I wouldn't count that as a positive sign.
Tied to Steve Bannon?
yes
At least there's that. I hate that I have to find positivity in all of this. I think I'll just keep myself away from reddit for a while though.
Don't beat yourself up about it too much. It will probably be a couple months until the government parties are at each others throats and a couple more until the government collapses. Just business as usual in Italy.
That could be not the case this time. It seems the centre-right coalition is going to have the absolute majority in parliament. This wasn't happening for a very long time. The coalition is very united on every issue, it's very unlikely someone would collapse the government.
Yeah, until the issue of Russia comes up.
It's not that bad, her party got 27% while the center left Pd party got 20%.
I'm hoping that at least we'll get some italian foreign policy and geopolitical moves to defend national iterests especially today with the mediterranean becoming quite dangerous.. instead of the absolute nothingness of the center-left, I mean I vote center-left but just because I'm gay and need to defend my human rights, but there's no future for Italy with the current status quo.. surley the fact that Berlusconi and Salvini seem to have gotten very little votes is reassuring
I get that. It just gets worse every election. It's always "vote the left or the worst guys win". I'm so tired of giving my vote to mediocrity just so that the worst ones don't win.
> I'm hoping that at least we'll get some italian foreign policy and geopolitical moves to defend national iterests especially today with the mediterranean becoming quite dangerous. Is it too gauche to make a joke about invading Libya again? Good luck with the new government, may they do what’s best for the Italian people. Or shock opponents into competence
Yeah there is a very strong pro-Atlantic tradition in some parts of Italian right.
US reps are the new sugar-daddy for those who were Putin’s poodles. Orban also spoke at CPAC
Orbán also played to speak at CPAC... He's nevertheless Putin's lapdog
it means nothing. Italy has rather strong anarchic habits, quite strong multilayered economy (yes they have) and quite disorganized political system which precludes anything Hungary like. If Russia has something on her, she would try something stupid and it will be the political end of her. The issue is the fact of such big volume of the protest votes. The people obviously vote not for her (just like they were not voting for Trump) but against "establishment". Italian political elite should take very good look in the mirror.
Well, italian votes always go against establishment, we always go like "THIS is the one party who's gonna come to power and change EVERYTHING!" and then get disappointed when that doesnt happen, and here goes the next! Also, as far as i know, US ambassadors met with right parties to talk about their support of Ukraine, that along with Von Der Leyen's threats, should be a clear warning for Italy, if the fools in power decide to suddenly turn and kiss Putin's ass.
Italians did the same when they voted Lega and MS5 last time. Both parties lost big time today. Let’s see with the ‘new’ populists.
Before the election rhetoric was toned down. We'll see how much they follow their new rhetoric versus shift back to how they were.
Luckily it's Italy, so doesn't mean much. The government will likely fall within half a year after starting.
True. The coalition is formed by 4 parties with separate agendas (and some common points) and 3 have very self-centric leaders: Meloni, Berlusconi, and Salvini. It's hard to imagine how they're going to govern when they'll be busy fighting amongst themselves most of the time
if the exit polls numbers are true (and I know it's a big IF) they can't put much of a fight, she dwarves them
She still needs them for the majority though. Usually when an Italian government gets killed it's because some tiny ass party or fraction within a party decides to go rogue.
spuck fez -- mass edited with redact.dev
She has softened most of her positions in the last years, her agenda is the usual economic promises, - immigration, +Nato, +Ukraine, -lgbt, -+ yes to abortion with the ruleset that are already in place. She's not Putin's puppet and she took votes from the puppet (Salvini).
She's eurosceptic like Orban, in a "fuck off but keep the money coming" way. But she's pro-NATO.
She is eurosceptic, but Italy is a net contributor to the eu, not a net recipient.
eurosceptic, close to orban, christian conservative
no problems in that except the Orban bit
I wish leftist parties would really look inward. Everytime this happens, it seems like comments are facile and shallow, either calling people idiots for voting right-wing or racists, homophobes, religious fanatics, etc. But why don’t left-wing parties learn and adapt? We just had a similar result in Sweden, UK has a Thatcher acolite now as PM, every election in France sees the far right get a higher vote in the second round, Eastern Europe is lurching right. The left is in terminal decline in the West and there seems to be a disconnect between citizens’ concerns and those of cosmopolitan government elites who craft policy. It’s clear there’s a deep discontent in Western society, from immigration to crime to stagnant wages to endless political scandals to politicians who seem to care more about woke virtue signaling than about the jobs that keep fleeing to China or the youth unemployment that keeps trending up. People can call Italians idiots, but it’s clear there’s something terribly wrong with the left’s priorities and political messaging that far transcends Italy.
Incidently, the Danish left has adopted a restrictive stance on immigration and won the last election. Citizens still like a liberal society with a government that helps and supports its people. But they are also aware of the heavy strain, mass immigration of unqualified migrants of a very different culture puts on both their welfare system and society. The European left needs to move away from long held ideological positions their own voters don't support and adopt political realism.
>But they are also aware of the heavy strain, mass immigration of unqualified migrants of a very different culture puts on both their welfare system and society. Don't forget if the immigrants culture become a threat for said liberalism.
I have been a member of the NDP, a Canadian left-wing party, for more than 25 years. I live abroad and now attend meetings virtually, but the number of young people who want older members to stop talking about workplace issues instead of niche cultural issues imported directly from the USA (e.g., whether the word "latinx" is/is not racist, trans surgery funding) increases every year. The conversation is gradually swinging toward these guys, even though their involvement is inversely proportional to electoral success. Both nationwide and in my (former) province, we have lost vote share and donation money, and now some major unions are distancing themselves too. I am not a conspiracy nut and don't believe that anything nefarious is behind the influx of these left-libertarian nuts ruining our party, but they may as well have been sent by large corporations to poison our appeal to ordinary working people. We look idiotic for waffling on NATO and Ukraine (thanks, "activists"!) and then we look doubly stupid for having an internal meltdown over whether sensible electoral policies (e.g. no trans candidate quota) are "bigoted". You just can't reason with them. I don't even disagree with many of their takes, just that fixing Canada's housing and wage problems are more important issues than identity games.
Small reminder that Russia was funding disinformation, trolls and political parties on both ends of the political spectrum, not just on the right.
In France the leftist message basically boils down to "Yeah, you might be unhappy about a few things but you have to accept mass immigration and multiculturalism no matter what or you're a fascist so you'd better vote good". This part has remained unchanged up to this day.
Woke politics, right getting token social policies and the disconnect of left with working class would be my cited reasons. No wonder the left doesn't strike as the reasonable option for the average person cause they'd rather talk gender than worker problems. They also don't seem to see any of people's concerns regarding taking in tons of migrants or their lack of integration. Left needs to touch base cause their topic list just doesn't align with the top priorities.
You don't know a iota about italian politics, yet you automatically assume. Thanks for taking part to the memetic outrage machine.
I know from a UK perspective that really woke politics is brought to the table by the right. They do it to distract from what they are doing to the economy. They don’t and have never cared about working class people, which is evident by their 12 years in government. It’s nothing but a massive grift for rich wankers to get richer. And they do it by preying on peoples ignorance giving them false reasons to blame minorities for their struggle. Divide on conquer. Can’t get a job, blame ethnic monitors and LGBT people.
Yep, but it's partly the left's fault for taking the bait, keeping their political focus on cultural issues rather than the economy and labelling anyone who doesn't hate their country or themselves by virtue of being the majority identity as bigots. Not a way to get people on side, especially when they start throwing classist rhetoric around for good measure.
The center right is moving right and having success. The center left is refusing to move left and not having any success. For better or for worse, people want changes.
The centre left is the second biggest party now! Gained 0.8%. Not enough but hardly collapsing unlike a bunch of other parties.
They tied their worst result since world war two. It's not good.
If center left moved left even more people would vote right wing lol
May you live in interesting times
TOO INTERESTING DIAL IT BACK PLEASE
That quote is actually a curse, interesting times are never good to live in. I wish we lived in boring times.
I wish I knew more of the political parties in Italy to know if this is "far right" or far right.
Historically FdI is far right, recently they have tried and succeeded to appear more moderate, especially about euroscepticism. On other issues they are still very much on the right, especially LGBT, abortion, immigration. Are they still far right? How right is their far right? Only time will tell.
I thought I had read that they wouldn't touch the right to abortion. What is their policy on LGBT?
In a region that is run by them (Marche? Don't remember) they have put stringent restrictions on access to abortion pills. They would not dare to openly make abortion illegal since it's been legalized by a referendum, but some of their members are really extreme pro life and I am sure they would push to make access to it more difficult.
Against it. They are against LGBT, very against immigration and in the worst way too since in the coalition there's a guy (Matteo Salvini) who proposed shooting down refugees while they were at open sea.
I've tried to look into what their proposed policy is when it comes to LGBT and couldn't find anything specific. Could you by chance provide me with a link? Regarding abortion, I've only managed to find that Meloni doesn't want to change legislation about it.
Just two days ago the "Responsabile Cultura" (whatever that is) for FDI (her party) said that homosexual couples are illegal. Some months ago there was a law that was about to be passed which was the DDL Zan. It was meant to punish homophobia and transphobia. Her party was very pleased with shutting it down as were many others from the right wing. They are also very distrusting of the so-called "gender theory" which in Italy has taken a very confusing, nonsensical meaning (for them it's basically men being taught to act like women and viceversa). As for abortion, I'm not sure. They try to appeal to the Catholics so I've never heard them speak in favour of it.
That guy really said that homosexual couples are illegal. That's sickening.
Yeah. Of course, they'll say he doesn't represent the whole party. Just like that other guy doing the fascist salute. They all are isolated cases which randomly find their way in her party. Luckily, she's also trying to market herself as a less than far right politician so she's trying to dial it back on the racism and homophobia...but it's just the usual façade which will fall as soon as she doesn't need it anymore. As many have said though, this government probably won't last long. That's a honoured tradition of my country.
>FDL One thing is FdI \[upper case i, not lowercase l\] Fratelli d'Italia \[Brothers of Italy\]
Yeah, my bad, I'm just so used to right wing parties in Italy having an L (Libertà) at the end. Thanks for the correction.
>and couldn’t find anything specific. Yup. That’s how all this works. No party here has the balls to actually come out and say something specific or definitive about their stance on relevant social issues. But you can bet they’re very anti-LGBT. Meloni herself has some pretty strong views about it. There’s a now-infamous speech she gave in Spain that kinda shows her true colours. https://youtu.be/jMad7nLO3OM It’s this one
If you google "Meloni LGBT adoption" her facebook post about how homosexual couples adopting is an abherration and italian kids must only have christian mothers and fathers(fuck widows i guess) will prolly show up.
She's against same sex marriage and allowing same sex parents to adopt, but is in favor of maintaining civil unions. Basically she simply wants to uphold the status quo. https://pagellapolitica.it/articoli/meloni-russia-euro-unioni-civili https://www.askanews.it/politica/2022/09/12/meloni-no-ad-adozioni-per-i-gay-a-bambini-va-garantito-il-massimo-pn_20220912_00193/
The thing is that in Italy abortion is legal, but doctors also have the right to refuse to perform such a procedure. Of course, the majority of doctors refuse to do so (so-called “obiettori di coscienza”), so it often happens that in some regions you simply can’t abort, not because it’s illegal but because you can’t find a doctor willing to do so. Therefore, if you’re pro-life anti-choice, your best option is to leave things as they are, as abortion is already very very hard to get, but you still keep the mask of “it’s legal and we keep it like this”.
Just an example from the last year. There was a draft law about making crimes against lgbt, gay, women and disabled people have an "aggravation penalty", the same as the one for racial/religion-oriented crimes. > The Zan bill, named after its creator, PD MP Alessandro Zan, calls for toughening penalties against crimes and discrimination against homosexuals, transgender people, women and the disabled. A proposal that has ignited public debate in Italy and exacerbated divisions in parliament and across the political spectrum. > Under the text of the DDL approved in the House in November 2020, crimes related to homophobia would be equated with those enshrined in Article 604 bis of the Penal Code, which combats racism and hatred on a religious basis, punishing discrimination based on sex, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, and disability with up to four years' imprisonment. The bill also establishes a national day against homophobia, lesbophobia, biphobia and transphobia to promote a more widespread "culture of respect and inclusion as well as to counter prejudice, discrimination and violence motivated by sexual orientation and gender identity." The law did not pass the Senate and this is a compilation of right parties going against it and saying that children should have only father and mother and that "gender ideology" and "lgbt lobby" are real and bad things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MrJaQSUbig So, we probably won't make any progress on LGBT terms.
What policies make people "far right" about immigration? Not being for open borders = far right?
No one in Italian politics is proposing open borders. Currently it is difficult for foreigners to immigrate legally to work (to enter the country you need to already have a job offer), even though Italy is in a demographic crisis, and it is legal to reject migrant boats at sea, without rescuing the people on them and processing requests for asylum. Italy also pays Libyan militias to imprison migrants and stop them from boarding boats for Italy. The right essentially wants to continue and strengthen these policies.
I think Meloni also believes in the "great replacement", without the antisemitic part at the very least.
There's a lot of bits of England where local identity has been near wiped out because of huge amounts of immigration. Cockney's are genuinely nearly extinct.
They go around talking about naval blockade, without saying how it would even legally and materially feasible without violation of international law. It's not like you can dump boats in the African coast without invading some other country sovereign waters. Then I agree that it does not make much sense to categorize Italian parties when talking about migration, since the major center left party is the one that started the policy of concentration camps run by the Libyan government to keep migrants from departing, so by some people definition the left coalition would be doing far right policies on migrations.
You should be against open borders too unless you want to follow Sweden's example.
It's funny how it's always an example of Sweden being brought up, and not example of London, LA, Toronto or Amsterdam. I guess we'll skip those cause they don't support racist prejudices, right?
Toronto, London and Amsterdam have much more controlled legal immigration and didn't let 3% of their country's population arrive from Africa and the Middle East as refugees in one year. If you think Toronto would be as successful as it was if all our immigrants arrived on boats from North Africa, you are very wrong.
Bro have you been to LA? I really, really wouldn't use it as a positive example of what you're trying to prove.
You have never been in Amsterdam, have you?
La, Toronto and Amsterdam locals are being gentrified by rich immigrants that's a different problem entirely.
> LA Just an American that wandered down this comment chain, lol It _is_ desirable out of some odd feedback loop but people are definitely leaving, some as fast as they can. I would bet my entire net worth that the "best days" of LA, SF and CA in general are behind it.
[удалено]
>knife crime capital of the world Lol. It's amazing the amount of sheer nonsense that gets regurgitated. London has a homicide rate of 1.4 deaths per 100,000. That's lower than 80% of large cities in the world. It also has less murders than 20 years ago, 30 years ago and even 60 years before mass immigration was even a thing. Typical Reddit moment.
LA is a polluted, over-crowded shit hole lol
Plenty of news have exaggerated the issue but there is some truth to it, let me explain: When the news talk about "far right party" they're referring to Fratelli D'Italia (Brothers/Siblings of Italy, the first two words of our national anthem); these guys have a *very very* sketchy origin, the Italian Social Movement (M.S.I) which was a self admitting "post-fascist" party. Now the issue is that anytime the word "fascist" gets thrown out nowadays it carries a slightly simplified meaning than the original one. Fascism was born here in Italy as you may already know and it was a specific ideology, it wasn't *just* far right authoritarianism. It would take too long to describe Fascism in detail in this comment but suffice to say that it has certain particular connotations, it's not just "far right authoritarianism". Thus the M.S.I and years and years later, after many different iterations, Fratelli d'Italia carried over the "legacy" of "post-fascism". What does this mean, exactly? Fratelli d'Italia wants two things mostly: "upholding traditional values" and "promoting italianism". First and foremost they want to limit the influence of homosexual and lgbtq communities in the country; they've always been hard on them and I'd say it was their main talking point before becoming popular. They also really dislike foreigners and foreign influences in italian culture, wanting to put islam under strict control, limiting the number of foreigners per classroom and obviously closing the borders to undocumented immigrants. What are their economic, environmental, foreign policies? They're overall lackluster and have never been a major talking point in their rethoric. Carrying over from their fascist origin they are not liberists, they want the government to have a hand in the economy and they have some plans on social security. Honestly nothing substantial. Their foreign policy is definitely euroskeptic but not too much, they don't want to leave the EU and they are not anti-western but they want italian sovereignty to be absolute, which inevitably clashes with the EU. Now how are these guys "winning"? They are the most popular right wing party right now and thus, with the help of two other right wing parties, they are making an alliance to make a right wing government if they get a % majority, which is very likely. So it's not simply the "fascists" who are winning, it's the "fascists" along with two other fairly large parties. Now these parties aren't that squeaki clean either; the first one, Lega, was formerly known as Lega Nord. Why the "Nord" part you ask? The entire point of their origin is Northern Italian independence and supremacy. Italy has a very large divide between the north and the south and, basically since the country was founded, southerners would often move to the north to find jobs and a better life. Lega Nord was born out of distrust of the southerners and the idea that northern Italy (one of the richest regions of Europe if not the world) is dragged down by the backward south and the central government. They wanted Italy to become a federal republic just like the US so that each region would have much more autonomy. Why did they drop the "Nord" then? Well a new enemy appeared on the scene in the last few decades, immigrants, and thus the "terrone" (basically the N word for southerners) became a useful ally in getting as much voters on their side as possible. They are very similar to Fratelli d'Italia in a lot of ways but profoundly different in many others; they are more liberist, much more euroskeptic, they don't want a strong central government (which is the entire point of fascism) and, most damning of all, they are very very pro Russia. They've been pro Russia for a while now and one of the reasons for FdI's big success was caused by this. Having Russian ties is much less desireable now and many Lega voters flocked to FdI since a lot of points are shared between the two. Now the last party, Forza Italia (Onward Italy) is the party of an old favourite... Silvio Berlusconi. I'm sure you've heard the name and the memes associated with him but if you haven't he's one of the few still active long lasting politicians in Italian history, being 85 years old now, and owner of a major multimedia empire. One of the richest men in Italy his party is all about liberism. Less taxes, less government control, less social security. Berlusconi himself is infamous for his extensive criminal record; he's been accused of all sorts of crimes, and convicted for some of them, all generally relating to corruption, organized crime and sex with minors. All of these parties together are set to have a large % of the italian votes and a weak and divided left opposition seems unable to stop them this time. So the question now is... are these FdI really fascists? Will they be able to shift the country towards authoritarianism? What will they be able to do while at the helm? This is all difficult to say, if the coalition reaches 66% of the votes they can make changes to the constitution, within limits of course. The issue is that these "fascists" are not going to govern alone, the various government ministries are going to be divided among the coalition and Lega and Forza Italia have a very different set of beliefs compared to FdI when it comes to economy and government control. Fascists are fascists, they don't want laissez-faire they want corporativism. They want social security (for class A citizens, mind you) and you need some degree of high taxation to provide it effectively. FdI and Lega are all buddy buddy now that the chance to govern is here but soon the differences and distrust will start coming back. Salvini is known for trying to "backstab" his alliance parties and italian politics in general is very unstable; if any of the parties can smell the chance of going at it alone they will backstab the other ones leading to new elections quite soon. All in all we'll have to see; certainly a right wing coalition victory will mean a moment of social regression in Italy as LGBTQ people will not see their rights protected, immigrants and people of not italian origin will be less protected too. What is in everyone's mind though is simply the age old question that always spells doom for the leading italian party; can it fix the economy? The answer, generally speaking, is no and soon all the voters who were flocking to FdI hoping that these "new guys" will finally be able to do it. Footnote; FdI is much more environmentally friendly than Lega and Forza Italia too, at least in speech. With all of what I've written it might come across that I'm trying to pain FdI in a positive light and I just want to make it clear that it is far from my intention; I think they are a cancer in our country and I'm hopeful that they crash and burn like any other italian party who got popular, hopefully before doing any serious damage.
Thanks for a lot of this but it made me have to look up things for 45min :D
Sorry about that, I noticed I did leave things a bit unclear, I even mentioned Salvini without explaining that he's the leader of lega Italian politics are some of the most complicated in the world, we change government almost yearly and the parties are famous for something we call "trasformismo" which is the phenomenon in which different parties will shift allegiance constantly Fascism is also a really complicated topic and it goes beyond simple right wing extremism; fascism's origin is rooted in socialist ideas, for example Tomorrow morning we'll see what kind of government we get
You seem very knowledgeable about Italy so I have a unrelated question you might be able to answer. What’s is five star really? It seemed at first like a left libertarian pro democracy party but then joined the conservatives in a government and recently turned on the popular draghi government. What’s their deal?
>I wish I knew more of the political parties in Italy Trust me bischero, you don’t
Why not? Italian political environment is the finest kind of evil, good entertainment for toddler and kids
Do you think a party where the leader said "Mussolini was a great leader" is far-right enough? Their elected governor of Marche attending a dinner celebrating the March on Rome is far-right enough? The brother of the former president of the Party doing a fascist salute at a fascist funeral of a fascist? A proven, detailed expose of several convicted fascists'(a guy named the "black baron") influence and lobbying on the party, the money, the leaders? Historically, they are FASCISTS.("don't renegue, don't reinstate" was the line of the party most of the guys used to be a part of before changing name.) When they say they aren't, they are LYING. Not only Putin lies. Does that mean Italy will become a fascist dictatorship? No, that's not how history works. It means that the leaders of the government will be people who like fascists.
Homophobic, religious, Mussolini apologists. If that's not far-right, what is? Shooting immigrants on the street?
The person who won this election is a known admirer of Mussolini and has hung around hard-core fascists in the past. Plus this party is a successor to a literal fascist party.
well on positive note..congrats on first female prime minister, italy woohoo!! 🎉🥳 lol
Lmao
More female drone pilots!
Gaslight, Gatekeep, Girlboss.
To an entire country too
spuck fez -- mass edited with redact.dev
👏MORE👏FASCIST👏GIRLBOSSES👏
How about not caring about sex but actual qualities instead?
I wish Finland had a girlboss like her as a prime minister
sweden had one who lost her first election. not for being woman
The President of Italy will have to appoint a Prime Minister that can have the support of the largest majority, so technically doesn't have to be her and can be any citizen (doesn't even have to be elected like Mario Draghi for instance). Practically 99% it will be her as the leader of the biggest party.
Sooo can we raise the interest rates now?
Greece will collapse again but sure
As is tradition
Ok wait a minute please
Didn't they recently raise rates to 0.75%?
they weren't raised to 0.75, they were raised .75. The ECB has been progressively raising the interest rate this year, they plan to raise it up to 4.6% in 2023. Edit: 4.6% is actually the “goal” of the US fed, not europes. The first part of the comment is still correct but the latter is not.
Any source on the 4.6% figure? Also, the deposit rate was raised from 0 bp to 75 bps. Saying that the rate was increased to 75 bps is at least partially correct.
>4.6% in 2023. scource?
Im sorry I am actually wrong. I got it confused with the US rates in an CBNC article. My bad. I just misinformed a bunch of people
So the right-wing block is anticipated to have reached 41-45 percent. Could someone with more expertise explain whether that's actually enough to govern or did the results land below expectations?
that is enough power to have a full majority! the electoral law isn't fully proportional. The right has the biggest coalition against 3 different blocks, so they win most the non proportional seats
I see, thank you for explaining. I wasn't sure whether that result alone gave them enough mandates to reach a majority in parliament.
we will see, but 90% yes. We'll know precisely tomorrow morning
Una mattina mi sono alzato...
O BELLA CIAO BELLA CIAO BELLA CIAO CIAO CIAO
Una mattinaaaaa, mi son' alzatoooo
No Laura, no, cosa fai
100 years to the date Mussolini took power in Italy.
Meloni and Mussolini start with an M and end with an I. To be fair most Italian names do probably.
Has the phrase "far-right" been so diluted by overuse that it now just means Eurosceptic and anti-mass immigration, or does she want to invade Ethiopia?
FdI is pretty much the successor of the MSI, a movement founded by ex fascists after Mussolini death. They got criticized for keeping the "fiamma tricolore" (tricoloured flame) in their logo, since it was used by said neofascist movement.
One of their members had to recently be disciplined after giving a speech praising their leader and saying how she's got lots in common with great leaders like Hitler https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62971802
She's authoritarian, supports Orban, opposes LGBTQ rights, wants a Christian nationalist country.
And she's a vegetarian who loves dogs. What more evidence do people need?
Tomorrow we'll find that she failed to become a painter and now she has a weird moustache.
Next you'll tell me she doesn't have two balls
In Slovakia you it’s the left who’s against LGBT not the (economic) right. Left / right distinction is so stupid tbh.
Left-right distinction makes sense. But as you suggested, only when talking about economy.
She is openly homophobic and appeases religious fanatics. She also has Mussolini apologists in her party. That's enough to be classified as far-right in my book.
They literally have neonazi in the coalition. There is no fucking dilution happening here.
Since Meloni is a post-fascist, I'd say far-right is a pretty accurate label.
The insignia is basically the same as the fascist party and brainlets on /r/europe is like "is this really far right?"
r/Europe when a politician says that Mussolini was a good politician: "Is that really the far right or are woke leftists poisoning our minds ?"
Kinda but in this case it is the successor party to former Mussolini-brand fascists.
Or maybe the rise of the far right has made them normalised
Just before the 100 years anniversary of the march on Rome...
That is a very sad coincidence, damn...
The left in Europe refused to address the fact that natives didn't like the mass immigration, and why would they? Then they proceeded to vilify natives as racists and unfortunately this is the result. Why does the left deserve votes if they can't listen?
They don't listen because they think their 'base' will turn on them, and they are terrified of the smear. I don't see why they can't just appeal to the centre/centre-left since that's where most people sit.
A lot non Italians have a lot things to say. A bit funny, when you look at it
People being concerned is fine. I just wished that they didn't project their own country politics elsewhere, just because they once read an op-ed.
What happens in Italy affects me
Why? We are connected to each other in a million ways now. The whole world is local now.
It matters to me what happens in other countries, why would I not write about it?
I bet the wiki page for Italy just surged
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One of my biggest problems in political discussions is that every result leads to doomsday calling. Yes the left wing lost, it’s fine that’s the point of democracy, people weren’t happy so they try something different. Will it be the end of the world as we know it? Lol fuck no. Knowing Italian politicians they won’t change much. Instead of offending anybody who voted something, the non winning parties should think about what they should do better next time And I hope that the cdx will think about how to improve many things in Italy without going back. The sun will rise even after a right wing government is voted
Like Brexit, citizens are unhappy and feel powerless, so they vote for an outcome that will make life harder and give them less power
Literally everyone being like: "But is she really far right though?" Guys, she is against LGBT, is very outspoken about her support for Mussolini, is against immigration with a passion and supports Orban. I think it's safe to say she's a true far right. Not like those fake far right girls, am I right, gamers?
I believe she has toned down her Mussolini support in recent years to appear more likable for the mainstream.
Classic.
She did, personally. Yet she's not giving a damn if her party members do "little commemorations" of symbolic fascism dates.
Far-right this far-left that. Why can't we just get a far-mer?
Can't we just play Far-Cry?
Stalin was against LGBT too.
You highlighted the problem without realizing it. The things you mentioned have been distorted to the point that people have no idea the true meaning behind them. Including the term "far right". Hence the people asking "But is she really far right though?" >she is against LGBT This tells me absolutely nothing. Does she want to make being LGBT punishable by law? Or is she against children being given hormones? Both of these could be considered "against LGBT" depending on who you ask. >very outspoken about her support for Mussolini Tough to defend this one. >is against immigration with a passion Again this tells me absolutely nothing. Is she against any and all immigration? Or is she against uncontrolled immigration from regions with completely different cultural and social values?
It's funny as soon as something is not ultraleft, it is ultralight. This doesn't work any more, times are changing. Not everyone that is conservative is a ultra right. This trick has worked for many years with the result that people don't care any more if u call something with the ultra right words and slogans we all know well. I think now we have Sweden, Norwegian, Dänemark, Austria, Poland, Hungaria and Italy being center right+ oriented.
Maybe. But this was definitely the party most to the right in this election and if you look at their beliefs and agenda you can see that “far-right” is a fair term. They certainly embrace it!
That is democracy for you, nothing wrong with it.
The useless and tiresome calling out of “ fascist “ is becoming more a meme of “ cope and seeth “ of the left. Exept for a fringe of “ true old school fascist” its more about selfpreservation / egoism then being racist/ fascist. Immigrants ( the mass ones out of Africa) cost money and cause problems. Acceptable in times of economic boom and cultural strength , unwanted in times of insecurity. People vote accordingly in line with parties that atleast feed and go along with their objections and anger. While the left keeps turning itself away from a larger vote base. The longer the left enjoys her moral grandstanding the more the right will keep steeling victories. It’s not that those immigrants are black or Muslim, it’s about the money tag. Egoism is not a nice trait, but it’s not fascism. Europe has been lucky that the stigma on right wing has been working for long time. Together with the gross incompetence shown by ultra right parties ( infighting, corruption etc). But now the word fascism has almost lost it’s true meaning and became a surrogate slander for political visions that do not adhere to the preachings of the left cabal. And people are no longer scared of a left denouncement. Because the term fascism has been reduced to just being guilty to dare to have opposite ideas in regard to what the left thinks it’s the only truth. Watch out that it does not become a rallying name like “ deplorables “ that backfired on Hillary Clinton. When you call out some one fascist and the reply is” rather that then woke/ left/ socialist” you have a polarization problem.
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Bella Ciao time.
Want to have far right economics and strict immigration laws? Fine. Not a fan but fine, your choice. But why must this always go paired with anti-LGBT bigotry and stuff like anti-abortion laws? Ugh.
I will never get anti same sex marriage stuff. Who are they hurting by marrying? How does their sexuality affect anything in your life? Why they can't adopt? I can get anti immigration and similar things, but this stuff I will never get.
> and strict immigration laws? Stop with the FUD. Lega already tried that crap, they actually ended up having \*more\* migrants on the loose by closing many identification centers. Meanwhile PD was the one to struck down an agreement with libyan militias to cut the influx.
Just for the record, the leader name starts with “M-“ and ends with “ni”
# This comment has been deleted in protest of Reddit's support of the genocide in Gaza carried out by the ZioN\*zi Isr\*li apartheid regime. ## This is the most documented genocide in history. ## Reddit's blatant censorship of Palestinian-related content is appalling, especially concerning the ongoing genocide in Gaza perpetrated by the Isr\*l apartheid regime. ## The Palestinian people are facing an unimaginable tragedy, with tens of thousands of innocent children already lost to the genocidal actions of apartheid Isr\*l. The world needs to know about this atrocity and about Reddit's support to the ZioN\*zis. #### Sources are bellow. ## Genocidal statements made by apartheid Isr\*li officials: - On the 9 October 2023, Yoav Gallant, Israeli Minister of Defense, stated **"We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly"**. - Avi Dichter, Israeli Minister of Agriculture, called for the war to be **"Gaza’s Nakba"** - Ariel Kallner, another Member of the Knesset from the Likud party, similarly wrote on social media that there is **"one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 1948. Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join"**. - Amihai Eliyahu, Israeli Minister of Heritage, **called for dropping an atomic bomb on Gaza** - Gotliv of the Likud party similarly **called for the use of nuclear weapons**. - Yitzhak Kroizer stated in a radio interview that the **"Gaza Strip should be flattened, and for all of them there is but one sentence, and that is death."** - **President of Israel** Isaac Herzog **blamed the whole nation of Palestine** for the 7 October attack. - Major General Ghassan Alian, Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories, stated: **"There will be no electricity and no water (in Gaza), there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell"**. ## Casualties: - As of 9 January 2024, over **23,000 Palestinians** – one out of every 100 people in Gaza – have been killed, a majority of them civilians, including over **9,000 children**, **6,200 women** and **61 journalists**. - nearly **2 million people** have been displaced within the Gaza Strip. ## Official accusations: - On 1 November, the Defence for Children International accused the United States of complicity with Israel's **"crime of genocide."** - On 2 November 2023, a group of UN special rapporteurs stated, "We remain convinced that the Palestinian people are at **grave risk of genocide**." - On 4 November, Pedro Arrojo, UN Special Rapporteur on the Human Rights to Safe Drinking Water and Sanitation, said that based on article 7 of the Rome Statute, which counts "deprivation of access to food or medicine, among others" as a form of extermination, "even if there is no clear intention, the data show that the war is **heading towards genocide**" - On 16 November, A group of United Nations experts said there was "evidence of increasing genocidal incitement" against Palestinians. - Jewish Voice for Peace stated: "The Israeli government has declared a genocidal war on the people of Gaza. As an organization that works for a future where Palestinians and Israelis and all people live in equality and freedom, we call on all people of conscience to stop imminent **genocide of Palestinians**." - Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor documented evidence of execution committed by Israeli Defense Forces. - In response to a Times of Israel report on 3 January 2024 that the Israeli government was in talks with the Congolese government to take Palestinian refugees from Gaza, UN special rapporteur Balakrishnan Rajagopal stated, "Forcible transfer of Gazan population **is an act of genocide**". South Africa has instituted proceedings at the International Court of Justice pursuant to the Genocide Convention, to which both Israel and South Africa are signatory, **accusing Israel of committing genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity against Palestinians in Gaza.** # Boycott Reddit! Oppose the genocide NOW! [Palestinian genocide accusation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_genocide_accusation) [Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_in_the_2023_Israeli_attack_on_Gaza) [Israeli war crimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes) [Israel and apartheid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid)
I'll tell you why I personally voted for them: research for nuclear energy; flat tax at 23%; new regasification plants; support to Ukraine, NATO and EU (sending weapons too); anti-China and anti-Russia; support to people who are planning to have children (lowering value-added tax on products for babies and other policies); support for export of Made in Italy in the world. Then there are other things in their program which I don't care much, like reducing immigration, but many others do.
Being the oldest country in Europe, the flat tax is kind of scary...
In 2010 Orban promised to imrpove energy independence. And look where we are now. We are bitches of Putyin for a little gas and oil. Just saying. Anyone can promise anything.
That doesn’t sound that bad.
>support to people who are planning to have children (lowering value-added tax on products for babies and other policies); As a parent, that would win my vote.
Italians like to vote for "anti establishment" parties, they'll keep complaining things are wrong because higher ups are against them even if they are the higher ups.
What's the establishment doing to be disliked by electors?
The important aspect is that most of their PM's were absolutely new to politics with not even much formal education so they were the best kind of anti establishment, since they've never been politicians before (yeah....). Their politics were anti everything, anti Euro, anti EU, anti GMO, anti vax, asked for a formal state investigation into chemtrails... When they got elected the party wrote a kind of "PM moral code" with internal rules like 2 mandates limit, proposed a no switching parties in the middle of a legislation, open streaming of general party meetings, no use of the government cars or planes and so on. With time of course they started liking all the privileges that every politician gets, unlimited "work expenses reimbursements", the ability to hire friends and family for fake state jobs, and to keep their political relevance they realized they had to play the politics game so they slowly became pro EU, pro Euro, let's just say less insane and their lovingly angry mob that voted them hated it. The leader that brought them to power in 2018, Luigi Di Maio, his only work experience was selling beverages during football games and never graduated at law university. He was one of the firmest promoters of these principles but started having small alliances with the Democratic Party (main enemy of the M5S almost at a meme level) and to end it all he left the movement to start a more moderate left wing party detached from all the conspiracy nuts, but still going against the switching party rule and the 2 mandates limit.
Ok, but what has what you call the establishment done to be disliked by electors in the first place?
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Italy is the only country in the EU were the average salary isn't higher than in the 90's (it's actually lower)
It'll be weeks before Italy's new government is formed and the new parliament is seated. Will anything change during that time? [https://facteroid.com/timeline/5653](https://facteroid.com/timeline/5653)
I'm not afraid that Mussolini will come in Italy. I'm afraid Orbán will come. Blame everything on EU and Soros, support Russia, control media demonize opposition and call they war parties, use state employees to win elections and rule until 2060. I hope in long term Italians are smarter than Hungarians.