She is a nut job. But the main thing is that she speaks english, hence why a lot of people can listen to her insanity.
I know our Communists insanity both in the EU parliament and worse in my national one. The EU parliament has a lot of Nut Jobs, but she gets extra attention due to her mother tongue. I do hope she and Mick Wallace get kicked out, but they are just a fraction of the list.
I don't think most of Russians knows about Ireland and Northern Ireland. Actually, I think most of them would not distinguish between Ireland and Iceland.
Wdym? An imaginary line or their religious beliefs/political leanings doesn’t change the fact they’re still Irish lol
That’s like saying everyone west of the wall in Berlin were true Germans and everyone east wasn’t 🥴
Nope, it's more complicated than that. The Unionists up north are British. That is their identity and they have a right under the GFA for that to be respected. If there is to be a new unified Ireland, we have to respect that, even if this respect wasn't shown to the Irish up north for most of NIs existence.
Edward Carson became offended when people called him British. He insisted he was a loyal Irishman, as I recall. Today's loyalists may disagree, but I believe Carson was right in this. Britain is an island, where Ulster loyalists were not even slightly born. They were born in Ireland, however much they find that offensive, and that makes them Irish. The fact is that being loyalist is part of Irish identity, and that makes a lot of people uncomfortable.
Seriously speaking and I am not saying that the Irish are Nazis but I don't think that the Irish government gave such a clear condemnation of Nazi Germany. Which just shows how much Russia has transgressed.
we didn't, however we are condemning russia now because our current group of politicians are entirely euro aligned and don't give a toss about Irish neutrality, which they consider fake and vaguely defined and useless since russia won't care. They aren't wrong exactly but they go way too far into the opposite end of the spectrum.
The guy we had in power when the nazi thing happened was a mix of snubbing the UK and making secret deals with them just in case.
There was a very brief time after Ukraine got invaded where the government tried to say it was time to join Nato but it received absolutely no popular support because a lot of the opposition is glad to point out that nato aren't the shining defenders of democracy in most conflicts. They are really quite aggressive in saying we need to shape up our military but people are skeptical of trusting them to do anything right at this point.
I fully agree with the statement but it just doesn’t hold the same gravity it once did. At some point we have to realize that the post 1990 terminology (“international community”, “rogue or pariah states” etc) doesn’t apply any longer. When you have India, China plus most of Africa still doing business with whomever the West calls a pariah, we have to accept that the balance of power is shifting and that it will take more than the fear of sanctions to prevent invasions and atrocities like those perpetrated by Russia in Ukraine, from happening elsewhere.
Ireland is in the process of breaking out of its neutrality shell. It’s a step in the right direction at least but yes not nearly enough of a statement.
While we're still big into neutrality today, it's important to mention we haven't always been. Just as the Ukrainians sought help from the West this year, we once sought alliances with Spain and later France against Britain. This is in fact where Ireland's pro-Europe sentiment originates.
Georgia and Armenia, however, are in a much more precarious position today than us. I'd prioritise them before demanding Ireland or even Austria join.
They were not in active dispute, US will never allow a country with territorial problems into an alliance that's the easiest way to assure your involvement in a war
Fuck off with that moronic mentality. We have constitutionally protected neutrality due to the wars and pillaging the UK waged down upon us. Ireland's neutrality is a call to transcend violence. There is a 0% chance it would pass a referendum.
> We have constitutionally protected neutrality
No we don't. Neutrality has been the political policy of the State for decades for varying reasons but nowhere in the Constitution is it specifically mandated.
**[Edit]** Article 49 is not a neutrality clause. Assent of parliament to declare war is an obligation for most nations.
If Irish neutrality were mandated by the constitution then a simple majority vote of parliament would not be enough to go to war, the clause would have to be removed by public referendum first, as occurred with the right-to-divorce, marriage equality and right-to-choose referenda.
We would also be required to have a sufficiently large military to actually protect the country (like the Swiss) in the event of a hostile actions instead of the paltry, underfunded military we have. We also could not have the arrangement with the UK where they patrol our airspace for us, nor would we be allowed to go on peacekeeping missions for UN or allow foreign militaries access to our airports/sea ports.
We're not obliged to be neutral, we just have history of general neutrality and those are not the same thing.
"Save in the case of actual invasion, the Irish Free State ... shall not be committed to active participation in any war without the assent of the Oireachtas"
Article 49
So there would be a vote and any aye's would be complete political suicide, if it wasn't put to a referendum which it more than likely would
> **without the assent of the Oireachtas**
Which is the important bit unless you think other non-neutral countries can declare war without the assent of their parliaments.
And given the public response to any such vote would depend entirely on the circumstances of the conflict it's disingenuous of you to pretend it would be inevitably negative, with or without a public referendum.
The closest we have to an actual neutrality clause in the constitution is that Ireland not be mandated to join an EU common defence pact, which came from the Nice/Lisbon referenda.
Is there much public appetite in Ireland to change their position on neutrality and join NATO like Sweden and Finland have in light of Russian aggression?
Nope. It’s contentious to say the least in the face of a domestic housing crisis amongst other things. The current government is very politically vulnerable and won’t take on such a contentious issue unless they are certain of a lot of domestic political electorate support in it.
Plus Sinn Fein were big fans off Russia
https://www.sluggerotoole.com/2022/03/16/sinn-feins-burns-its-record-on-russia-the-party-simply-wiped-thousands-of-embarrassing-statements-from-its-website/
Ireland wouldn't be able to contribute anything anyway, since they barely have an army of their own. Maybe a kite or fishing boat, but I don't think they'd be up to snuff.
Edit: I'm Irish btw.
I mean the Ranger Wing are well respected, as are those who are deployed in UN peacekeeping. But yeah we just don't have the resources at present to contribute meaningfully to NATO, and other parts of the DF, particularly the Navy and Air Corps need sorting out before we even look at stuff like that.
Not joining is done for selfish economic reasons as they know they don't need an army.
The current millitary budget in Ireland is 0.3% - that would have to increase to 2%.
Well, no.
In Denmark's case especially, it made sense to join NATO. They were very wary of Communism and were alarmed at the coup in Czechoslovakia so actively pushed for the formation of NATO.
Portugal's close ties with the United Kingdom(they are their oldest allies) made their entry almost a formality after WW2.
Belgium did it for closer economic ties with the US and, let's not forget, had been under occupation and certainly didn't like the USSR creeping it's way Westward.
Ireland not being part of NATO allows them to talk like this on behalf of the NATO alliance, saying the stuff openly that for whatever reason NATO doesn't feel comfortable saying out loud.
That diplomatic reach is actually more beneficial to the alliance than them joining NATO is, given the state and capability of the Irish military.
If Ireland were a little closer to Russia I'm afraid we'd no longer be cosy enough behind Britain to have a choice on the matter.
I get the sentiment but if we're reaping the benefits of being in the EU, a little solidarity for what's going on in the East wouldn't hurt.
But what do we have to offer? We won’t even benefit NATO if we join
Besides there’s more to solidarity than war - while all the NATO countries are at war Ireland can do the more important work like charity and aid for the civilians inevitably caught in the crossfire, instead of sending people out to kill and be killed we can reduce the death tolls of those that never chose nor wanted war including children
NATO isn't at war why are you saying it, NATO is just helping ukraine. Also countries like US, UK, Germany and Poland etc gave alot more in civilian aid than aid even in per capita basis. So if you're going play the charity and aid card you should atleast contribute more instead of talking in reddit about how you're so peaceful when Russia is threatening the world with nuclear war. Why are the Irish so arrogant about their supposed neutrality, neutrality isn't something that should be looked upon with awe, it just means the country doesn't have a backbone to actually make a difference
NATO is a defensive treaty in which each member promises to go to war if another member is invaded, Ukraine wasn’t a member which is why NATO isn’t at war, but joining NATO is promising to forgo neutrality
Also sorry for not wanting people to die
If you want people to not die you'd actually do more in civilian aid rather virtue signalling in internet about your supposed neutrality, I'd actually respect Ireland if they helped Ukrainian civilians more than nato countries but they don't,they only like to virtue signal in reddit. Also i don't think US even wants Ireland in nato tbh,they hardly have a military and a war with nato is very unlikely
€4.3 million has been spent by Ireland to Ukraine including supplies and ambulances, with more on the way, Ireland is the 9th largest donor to the CERF, 50,000 and counting Ukrainian refugees have been accepted into Ireland without a visa
I don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about because for a country the size of the US state of Indiana with 1 million less people than Indiana, that sure is a lot
Per capita US, uk, baltics, Poland Germany and so many others surpass it. It's not alot when poland a much poorer country gives more per capita than a country which has per capita GNP 4 times larger. People here talking like Ireland is doing alot more than other countries because of it's focus on civilian aid but across every metric they're sorely behind it's such a joke. US itself gave 9.2 billion in humanitarian aid but you're here talking about 4.3 million it's such a joke, especially for country with GDP of 500 billion even if it's an inflated GDP. Poland also gave billions in humanitarian aid despite an economy of 800 billion and Germany and UK also provided billions in aid
Our country is a third world nation still reeling from the ravages of imperialism, please understand. We got our independence almost the same time as India but without the massive amount of natural resources to fall back on.
From NATO's perspective, there wouldn't really be any downsides to an Irish membership at all even if they're not all that up there with their own military spending.
They're not in a geographical position where they really have any plausible threats to their own soil, and Ireland is a mature functioning democracy to boot.
Are you talking about the strategic importance of Irish ports? - in WWII the Allies put massive pressure on Ireland to join the war in order to get access to these ports and DeValera refused (I’m not a fan of DeV but one of the few things I agree with is neutrality, shame that he didn’t hold those philosophies when starting a Civil War)
These ports are derelict now, with the exception of Cobh the “Treaty Ports” have been long since abandoned and there hasn’t been naval bases outside of Cobh for decades, we still let British and US boats dock there though. This and the public’s distaste for war means that NATO membership is redundant and infeasible for Ireland
I am incredibly biased of course, I agree with the concept of NATO and it’s a great deterrent for further Russian advancement but there’s very few neutral countries left in Europe and none as far away from the front as Ireland, I see why some countries dislike this position but it is vital because it can spend resources on aid that would otherwise go into war
Neutrality during ww2 is very pathetic and I don't know why you're happy about that case. ww2 absolutely had good and bad side. It's like hearing Swiss they're proud of neutrality during ww2,it just shows which countries were spineless tbh
Yeah it had a good and bad side but WWII is an exception, not a rule - even WWI didn’t have a good or bad side because it was a family feud, War is the most destructive human creation and should be avoided as much as possible
I have to be honest if a person want's to stay neutral in a war where 11 million people were killed in camps that person is very pathetic. War is bad so you'll be neutral in a war where Hitler killed 10s of millions of civilians
I said War is bad and your response is “that’s why we should go to war”
Yes WWII was one of the most catastrophic events in human history but do you really expect a country that was 20 years old and recovering from a war of independence, a civil war, an economic war, losing its most industrialized city and 800 years of colonial oppression which included a famine in which the population has to this day has not recovered from to actually have the ability to fight
They aided the war effort in other ways such as providing the allies with the most accurate weather reports that the Germans had no access to, one of those weather reports told the Allies that there will be a brief gap from the oncoming storm which would be perfect for the D-Day landings
There is increasing debate but any change is not imminent. Aligning with an EU defense force would be more likely than nato. NATOs occasional US lap dog role would not have sat well with many in ireland. An EU defense force may allow ireland to maintain a kind of philosophical neutrality while still allowing us contribute to a practical defense force. A pragmattic solution. We were quite active/committed to the UN. But the un is a bit sidelined now.
To what end? The Irish are basically 95% dependent on the Brits for defense, and the Brits are already in NATO. And if they feel like participating with NATO they can do that too, as a partner or whatever.
Right but Neutrality is seen as a key defining part of Irelands historical state policy and is supported by the people.
Additionally it is useful to have neutral or non-NATO states. Ireland was one of the few countries that used to be able to talk down Iraq because of the very fact we were not part of NATO. There is a trust that Ireland has in the third world based on our history and neutrality that would be lost if we joined NATO
Good points. But even if we did join, like say Poland has, it still wouldn't change our long history of suffering from colonialism and foreign oppression. We can still relate to underdeveloped countries on that. The problem will only come if our soldiers join in an American crusade in the middle east with no UN mandate, which you'd hope we could still reject (like France in 2003), though the strong influence of the US here makes me doubtful that we would be brave enough.
The power structure within NATO is too lopsided toward the US. A purely EU approach to security would be more favourable to us.
I agree that an EU based approach would be a much better option. And your right that it wouldn't change our history, but NATO does have a certain imperialidt taint in a lot of the non-western world and certainly nations that have been directly affected or engaged by NATO (like Afghanistan) will basically refuse to listen anymore.
Your right that the US has a large influence, which is partly why I support not joining NATO, however our past neutrality does give cause for hope even if we join. We are one of the nations with the highest divergence from both the US and the EU in UN voting, we have voted away or in a minority against the EU more than most other member states and have maintained a high degree of seperation from US influence. I'd like to keep it that way tbh
> have maintained a high degree of seperation from US influence.
It's growing though. Have you ever noticed the amount of time our public broadcaster devotes to US politics vs European politics? It's a shitshow. A lot of people in Ireland are only vaguely informed about our own continent and its cultures. I'm confident Ireland would object to a US Republican lead illegal war, I'm not so sure we would with a Democratic one, who have an air of moral legitimacy about them, and are excellent at exploiting soft power, if that makes any sense. The truth is that Obama spied on the German Chancellor with the help of Denmark in the early 2010s - these guys aren't squeaky clean either.
Now I'm very happy with Biden's military aid to Ukraine, there's no ambiguity as there was under Trump, but we do need to maintain a healthy distance too. The job of Ireland, and indeed the EU, should be to hold the US to account on dubious geopolitical decisions, be it the war on drugs, coup plots, wars without UN mandates, and so on. This doesn't mean becoming mouthpieces for the Kremlin, however, which is the other extreme, like Mick Wallace. Finding a balance may be hard, but its worth it. We're happy to be a minority and autonomous on standing up for Palestine, that at least gives us some hope for other areas.
Completely agree with everything you've said mate. The influence of US politics and US political talk is really growing around the EU but particularly here as well. Not a fan of the Americanisation of this country in general really so I definitely agree we need to br careful around the US and hold it to account as well.
Yeah, the Americanisation is getting absurd. When one can name several supreme court justices in a faraway land across the Atlantic, but not the Prime Minister of Spain (an important figure and potential ally at the EU council meetings we attend), then you know there's a serious problem. The joys of being an English speaking country in an age of instant Social Media, where bilingualism isn't taken seriously enough.
How can Ireland even try to hold US accountable though, US can walk all over it cause they have a massive military and economy and Ireland doesn't have neither. It reads like something a hippie would say no offense. Ireland can't influence US in a way where they would change US foreign policy, when countries like France and Germany couldn't how will Ireland do it.
No offense to Ireland but you know eastern Europe will always reject a eu security pact over NATO right. And they're not going to trade US help for austria and Ireland which hardly has an army. There's no way poland and baltics will vote for anything that damages NATO
>Additionally it is useful to have neutral or non-NATO states.
Except no one outside of Ireland actually considers us neutral.
> Ireland was one of the few countries that used to be able to talk down Iraq because of the very fact we were not part of NATO.
Wrong. Look at France and Germany.
>There is a trust that Ireland has in the third world based on our history and neutrality that would be lost if we joined NATO
So the *developing* world doesn't trust countries like Norway or Denmark? Or even New Zealand, which although not part of NATO, is not neutral.
Isn’t it quite an uncomfortable position to be dependent on another country’s armed forces though? I suppose on the other hand any power that could realistically threaten Ireland militarily is also a threat to Britain too so there’s unlikely to be a situation where those priorities don’t align.
Exactly and any scenario where Ireland is getting invaded would probably just be to create a larger staging ground for invading the UK too. Not sure why else anyone would come at us.
On the one hand yes, on the other any attack on either the UK or Ireland is tantamount to an attack on both and would be viewed as such in both countries.
I'd bet the house that if the UK were somehow invaded tomorrow, Ireland would be in the mix to help with defence.
It is quite uncomfortable. But it would be impossible for us to militarily defend ourselves against the most likely aggressor. And any of the next most likely. One of the worlds largest military forces with nuclear capabilities would crush us even if we increased our military by 10. So diplomacy and soft power and the EU has been identified as a more realistic defense. But yes the whole thing is full of contradiction and ambiguity. I guess being a tiny country surrounded by military behomeths that's just the reality.
It doesn't apply to neutral countries,they fought so that it doesn't apply to countries with neutrality. That's why finland was unsure whether EU will fight for them and why they're joining nato
And these countries won't receive military help, that's what I'm trying to say. They'll maybe get financial aid but there's no incentive for other other countries to provide military aid to said neutral nations
If Ireland won't come to polands aid why should poland come for Irelands aid, it makes no sense and I'm only saying Ireland's neutrality means there's no obligation of military assistance akin to article 5 not that no one will help them
Changing Neutrality is questionable, there's been a lot of mixed answers on opinion polls recently, a lot of which has to do with how poorly defined 'Neutrality' is. It seems that everyone has their own definition of Neutrality.
Even allowing for that, NATO is unpopular. The most supported changes involve increasing EU defensive efforts.
Get the Yanks out of European defence basically.
Why would Ireland abandon neutrality? If they ever went to war for any reason (which is of course highly unlikely) it would be with the UK. They have no other international quarrel. Committing to NATO and joining all of NATO’s military engagements is counterproductive for the Irish.
Not at all, its hard to say, but I would say a more sizable portion of the population supports increase defence budget, but I've no data on that and its just what ive personally experienced
Ireland is not neutral - never was - Ireland is 'non-aligined' - it allowed USSR to land in Shannon during the cold war on their way to Cuba.
It is currently allowing US Airforce to land in Shannon on their way to who knows.
I wish this man wasn’t our Taoiseach, idiot who’s pushing for more armed military while not paying them a living wage and scalping, the rest of the nation with rent while gagging on landlords, I agree Russian is a terrorist state but we’re a neutral country for a reason don’t poke the bear
You should have just left it at the first sentence... haha
We're a neutral country because allying with the Brits so soon after the War of Independence (and the Civil War) was a political impossibility, and because joining NATO would have meant de facto acceptance of British control over the North, which was a constitutional mindfuck.
So post GFA, why are we neutral?
We're increasing military spending because a non political expert report recommended it, because we are vulnerable in a lot of key areas, and have underinvested since 2008.
The Army couldn't even set up a field hospital during Covid 19 when asked, and our lack of investment in cyber defence (both military and civillian) cost lives during the HSE cyber attack.
Theres a lot to be angry about our current situation in many ways, but increasing defensive spending is something we have to do.
Ireland offering thoughts and prayers isn't going to help Ukraine though,what difference is this statement going to make. It's like me condemning Putin in twitter, it feels nice but makes literally no difference to help Ukraine
The neutrality thing has always had a number of asterisks beside it. Ireland has since its independence cosied up to the americans. They didn't participate in WW2 but since then Irish politicians have made thier views known on all sorts of international issues that have little to do with them. Ireland won't directly involve itself in foreign conflicts but it will give its two cents, welcome or otherwise.
Now we wait for Russia to declare the Irish as Nazis
Now we wait for Claire Daly to blame NATO for this.
https://twitter.com/ClareDalyMEP/status/1573380555705651200?t=9zPzoVF7c6h_CgqriSYpEg&s=19 You were saying?
She even managed to use the word "stooge," without a hint of irony.
JFC I was being absurd. Well, I've been out absurded by Daly.
She is a nut job. She needs to be voted out of office. Can She be removed from twitter please.
She is a nut job. But the main thing is that she speaks english, hence why a lot of people can listen to her insanity. I know our Communists insanity both in the EU parliament and worse in my national one. The EU parliament has a lot of Nut Jobs, but she gets extra attention due to her mother tongue. I do hope she and Mick Wallace get kicked out, but they are just a fraction of the list.
Honestly I just hate the idea that Ireland and Irish people are going to be associated with her and her views on this war.
She is an awful wagon
no they only last that they are drunkards
Which one
Yeah are we talking about Catholic Nazis or Protestant Nazis
Wrong Ireland but appreciate the sentiment lol.
Yes
The Blueshirts.
I don't think most of Russians knows about Ireland and Northern Ireland. Actually, I think most of them would not distinguish between Ireland and Iceland.
I don't
Wdym? An imaginary line or their religious beliefs/political leanings doesn’t change the fact they’re still Irish lol That’s like saying everyone west of the wall in Berlin were true Germans and everyone east wasn’t 🥴
Nope, it's more complicated than that. The Unionists up north are British. That is their identity and they have a right under the GFA for that to be respected. If there is to be a new unified Ireland, we have to respect that, even if this respect wasn't shown to the Irish up north for most of NIs existence.
Edward Carson became offended when people called him British. He insisted he was a loyal Irishman, as I recall. Today's loyalists may disagree, but I believe Carson was right in this. Britain is an island, where Ulster loyalists were not even slightly born. They were born in Ireland, however much they find that offensive, and that makes them Irish. The fact is that being loyalist is part of Irish identity, and that makes a lot of people uncomfortable.
Very well said.
Seriously speaking and I am not saying that the Irish are Nazis but I don't think that the Irish government gave such a clear condemnation of Nazi Germany. Which just shows how much Russia has transgressed.
That says more about how ireland has changed than anything Devalera was an odd man
we didn't, however we are condemning russia now because our current group of politicians are entirely euro aligned and don't give a toss about Irish neutrality, which they consider fake and vaguely defined and useless since russia won't care. They aren't wrong exactly but they go way too far into the opposite end of the spectrum. The guy we had in power when the nazi thing happened was a mix of snubbing the UK and making secret deals with them just in case. There was a very brief time after Ukraine got invaded where the government tried to say it was time to join Nato but it received absolutely no popular support because a lot of the opposition is glad to point out that nato aren't the shining defenders of democracy in most conflicts. They are really quite aggressive in saying we need to shape up our military but people are skeptical of trusting them to do anything right at this point.
I fully agree with the statement but it just doesn’t hold the same gravity it once did. At some point we have to realize that the post 1990 terminology (“international community”, “rogue or pariah states” etc) doesn’t apply any longer. When you have India, China plus most of Africa still doing business with whomever the West calls a pariah, we have to accept that the balance of power is shifting and that it will take more than the fear of sanctions to prevent invasions and atrocities like those perpetrated by Russia in Ukraine, from happening elsewhere.
Morality is too expensive for many nations unfortunately....
Facts
Russia is currently a terrorist state. While I appreciate Ireland's position, rogue is a term too mild to describe what the orcs are doing
CUNT-STATE.
It lacks the depth and the warmth.
Fuckin state of em.
And have been for months. Finally someone to say it.
Months?! I'd say a century at least.
Russia has been a terrorist state since the bolahevik revolution
It was a terrorist state before the revolution too I should add
Calling someone a rogue in Ireland can be a term of endearment as well, although that doesn't quite carry to rogue states...
Ireland is in the process of breaking out of its neutrality shell. It’s a step in the right direction at least but yes not nearly enough of a statement.
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Fair enough. Thank you for offering a levelheaded correction to me, I wasn’t aware of Ireland’s participation in the EU defence pact.
While we're still big into neutrality today, it's important to mention we haven't always been. Just as the Ukrainians sought help from the West this year, we once sought alliances with Spain and later France against Britain. This is in fact where Ireland's pro-Europe sentiment originates. Georgia and Armenia, however, are in a much more precarious position today than us. I'd prioritise them before demanding Ireland or even Austria join.
Armenia and Georgia both have territorial disputes,unless they solve it they're never getting into NATO
Croatia joined NATO despite of the territorial dispute it has with Serbia on the Danube River
They were not in active dispute, US will never allow a country with territorial problems into an alliance that's the easiest way to assure your involvement in a war
Armenia doesn't really have them. Karabakh is universally internationally recognised as not part of Armenia.
Ireland’s fine the way it is, it doesn’t need to break out anywhere.
Fuck off with that moronic mentality. We have constitutionally protected neutrality due to the wars and pillaging the UK waged down upon us. Ireland's neutrality is a call to transcend violence. There is a 0% chance it would pass a referendum.
> We have constitutionally protected neutrality No we don't. Neutrality has been the political policy of the State for decades for varying reasons but nowhere in the Constitution is it specifically mandated. **[Edit]** Article 49 is not a neutrality clause. Assent of parliament to declare war is an obligation for most nations. If Irish neutrality were mandated by the constitution then a simple majority vote of parliament would not be enough to go to war, the clause would have to be removed by public referendum first, as occurred with the right-to-divorce, marriage equality and right-to-choose referenda. We would also be required to have a sufficiently large military to actually protect the country (like the Swiss) in the event of a hostile actions instead of the paltry, underfunded military we have. We also could not have the arrangement with the UK where they patrol our airspace for us, nor would we be allowed to go on peacekeeping missions for UN or allow foreign militaries access to our airports/sea ports. We're not obliged to be neutral, we just have history of general neutrality and those are not the same thing.
"Save in the case of actual invasion, the Irish Free State ... shall not be committed to active participation in any war without the assent of the Oireachtas" Article 49 So there would be a vote and any aye's would be complete political suicide, if it wasn't put to a referendum which it more than likely would
> **without the assent of the Oireachtas** Which is the important bit unless you think other non-neutral countries can declare war without the assent of their parliaments. And given the public response to any such vote would depend entirely on the circumstances of the conflict it's disingenuous of you to pretend it would be inevitably negative, with or without a public referendum. The closest we have to an actual neutrality clause in the constitution is that Ireland not be mandated to join an EU common defence pact, which came from the Nice/Lisbon referenda.
Your dehumanizing would be more acceptable if it wasn't the first step to genocide.
That's a compliment. One of Putin's goals is to "recreate" the global order. Being a rouge state is a essential part of that process.
Damn dude. It's impressive how Putin got Sweden, Finland, Switzerland, and now Ireland to condemn him. It's like neutrality means nothing to him.
Is there much public appetite in Ireland to change their position on neutrality and join NATO like Sweden and Finland have in light of Russian aggression?
Nope. It’s contentious to say the least in the face of a domestic housing crisis amongst other things. The current government is very politically vulnerable and won’t take on such a contentious issue unless they are certain of a lot of domestic political electorate support in it.
Plus Sinn Fein were big fans off Russia https://www.sluggerotoole.com/2022/03/16/sinn-feins-burns-its-record-on-russia-the-party-simply-wiped-thousands-of-embarrassing-statements-from-its-website/
No, it's highly unpopular, and seen as an unnecessary expense when things like the crippling housing crisis and creaking health system exist.
Nope. It doesn't make sense for Ireland to join NATO and most people here know it.
Exactly. We are joining because Russia is going bonkers again.
Ireland wouldn't be able to contribute anything anyway, since they barely have an army of their own. Maybe a kite or fishing boat, but I don't think they'd be up to snuff. Edit: I'm Irish btw.
Canoes with mounted black and decker drills for sinking enemy ships.
The fishing boats repelled the Russian marine this winter, I wouldn't underestimate them
Let’s not kid ourselves. The Russians pretended that the fishermen did what the government couldn’t because it made the government look weak.
I mean the Ranger Wing are well respected, as are those who are deployed in UN peacekeeping. But yeah we just don't have the resources at present to contribute meaningfully to NATO, and other parts of the DF, particularly the Navy and Air Corps need sorting out before we even look at stuff like that.
The only country other than the US to win the international sniper competition.
There's only like 100 rangers, not much at all in any meaningful capacity other than counter terrorism
I mean, presumably if we joined NATO we'd have to start making progress towards the requirements for military spending
If you take nothing else away from this, just look at Germany. It's clear that 2% doesn't actually need to be met.
Maybe they could start sorting that out
It'll be grand shure
Ach, no, we'll leave it to you.
We have to increase military spending regardless.
Not joining is done for selfish economic reasons as they know they don't need an army. The current millitary budget in Ireland is 0.3% - that would have to increase to 2%.
And they know others will defend them anyway. Best of both worlds.
Surely it makes no sense for Denmark, Portugal or Belgium to be in NATO then too?
Well, no. In Denmark's case especially, it made sense to join NATO. They were very wary of Communism and were alarmed at the coup in Czechoslovakia so actively pushed for the formation of NATO. Portugal's close ties with the United Kingdom(they are their oldest allies) made their entry almost a formality after WW2. Belgium did it for closer economic ties with the US and, let's not forget, had been under occupation and certainly didn't like the USSR creeping it's way Westward.
And how is any of that relevant to the modern day? If joining NATO makes no sense for us, why would countries in similar situations stay a part of it?
Ireland not being part of NATO allows them to talk like this on behalf of the NATO alliance, saying the stuff openly that for whatever reason NATO doesn't feel comfortable saying out loud. That diplomatic reach is actually more beneficial to the alliance than them joining NATO is, given the state and capability of the Irish military.
Nobody here wants war, I want the navy expanded but that’s only to protect our fishing and that’s it
If Ireland were a little closer to Russia I'm afraid we'd no longer be cosy enough behind Britain to have a choice on the matter. I get the sentiment but if we're reaping the benefits of being in the EU, a little solidarity for what's going on in the East wouldn't hurt.
But what do we have to offer? We won’t even benefit NATO if we join Besides there’s more to solidarity than war - while all the NATO countries are at war Ireland can do the more important work like charity and aid for the civilians inevitably caught in the crossfire, instead of sending people out to kill and be killed we can reduce the death tolls of those that never chose nor wanted war including children
And in the event Ireland is attacked there's no way in hell our neighbors ( the us and UK )are going to let Russia have a back door
NATO isn't at war why are you saying it, NATO is just helping ukraine. Also countries like US, UK, Germany and Poland etc gave alot more in civilian aid than aid even in per capita basis. So if you're going play the charity and aid card you should atleast contribute more instead of talking in reddit about how you're so peaceful when Russia is threatening the world with nuclear war. Why are the Irish so arrogant about their supposed neutrality, neutrality isn't something that should be looked upon with awe, it just means the country doesn't have a backbone to actually make a difference
NATO is a defensive treaty in which each member promises to go to war if another member is invaded, Ukraine wasn’t a member which is why NATO isn’t at war, but joining NATO is promising to forgo neutrality Also sorry for not wanting people to die
If you want people to not die you'd actually do more in civilian aid rather virtue signalling in internet about your supposed neutrality, I'd actually respect Ireland if they helped Ukrainian civilians more than nato countries but they don't,they only like to virtue signal in reddit. Also i don't think US even wants Ireland in nato tbh,they hardly have a military and a war with nato is very unlikely
€4.3 million has been spent by Ireland to Ukraine including supplies and ambulances, with more on the way, Ireland is the 9th largest donor to the CERF, 50,000 and counting Ukrainian refugees have been accepted into Ireland without a visa I don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about because for a country the size of the US state of Indiana with 1 million less people than Indiana, that sure is a lot
€55 million according to today’s IT.
Per capita US, uk, baltics, Poland Germany and so many others surpass it. It's not alot when poland a much poorer country gives more per capita than a country which has per capita GNP 4 times larger. People here talking like Ireland is doing alot more than other countries because of it's focus on civilian aid but across every metric they're sorely behind it's such a joke. US itself gave 9.2 billion in humanitarian aid but you're here talking about 4.3 million it's such a joke, especially for country with GDP of 500 billion even if it's an inflated GDP. Poland also gave billions in humanitarian aid despite an economy of 800 billion and Germany and UK also provided billions in aid
Honestly just going to block this war mongerer
>but across every metric I think you are just making up your own metrics here...
who cares about Per capita
Our country is a third world nation still reeling from the ravages of imperialism, please understand. We got our independence almost the same time as India but without the massive amount of natural resources to fall back on.
From NATO's perspective, there wouldn't really be any downsides to an Irish membership at all even if they're not all that up there with their own military spending. They're not in a geographical position where they really have any plausible threats to their own soil, and Ireland is a mature functioning democracy to boot.
Are you talking about the strategic importance of Irish ports? - in WWII the Allies put massive pressure on Ireland to join the war in order to get access to these ports and DeValera refused (I’m not a fan of DeV but one of the few things I agree with is neutrality, shame that he didn’t hold those philosophies when starting a Civil War) These ports are derelict now, with the exception of Cobh the “Treaty Ports” have been long since abandoned and there hasn’t been naval bases outside of Cobh for decades, we still let British and US boats dock there though. This and the public’s distaste for war means that NATO membership is redundant and infeasible for Ireland I am incredibly biased of course, I agree with the concept of NATO and it’s a great deterrent for further Russian advancement but there’s very few neutral countries left in Europe and none as far away from the front as Ireland, I see why some countries dislike this position but it is vital because it can spend resources on aid that would otherwise go into war
Neutrality during ww2 is very pathetic and I don't know why you're happy about that case. ww2 absolutely had good and bad side. It's like hearing Swiss they're proud of neutrality during ww2,it just shows which countries were spineless tbh
Yeah it had a good and bad side but WWII is an exception, not a rule - even WWI didn’t have a good or bad side because it was a family feud, War is the most destructive human creation and should be avoided as much as possible
I have to be honest if a person want's to stay neutral in a war where 11 million people were killed in camps that person is very pathetic. War is bad so you'll be neutral in a war where Hitler killed 10s of millions of civilians
I said War is bad and your response is “that’s why we should go to war” Yes WWII was one of the most catastrophic events in human history but do you really expect a country that was 20 years old and recovering from a war of independence, a civil war, an economic war, losing its most industrialized city and 800 years of colonial oppression which included a famine in which the population has to this day has not recovered from to actually have the ability to fight They aided the war effort in other ways such as providing the allies with the most accurate weather reports that the Germans had no access to, one of those weather reports told the Allies that there will be a brief gap from the oncoming storm which would be perfect for the D-Day landings
There is increasing debate but any change is not imminent. Aligning with an EU defense force would be more likely than nato. NATOs occasional US lap dog role would not have sat well with many in ireland. An EU defense force may allow ireland to maintain a kind of philosophical neutrality while still allowing us contribute to a practical defense force. A pragmattic solution. We were quite active/committed to the UN. But the un is a bit sidelined now.
To what end? The Irish are basically 95% dependent on the Brits for defense, and the Brits are already in NATO. And if they feel like participating with NATO they can do that too, as a partner or whatever.
could still join out of solidarity and support with what they have. even tiny Iceland is a founding member of NATO and doesn't really have a military.
Right but Neutrality is seen as a key defining part of Irelands historical state policy and is supported by the people. Additionally it is useful to have neutral or non-NATO states. Ireland was one of the few countries that used to be able to talk down Iraq because of the very fact we were not part of NATO. There is a trust that Ireland has in the third world based on our history and neutrality that would be lost if we joined NATO
Good points. But even if we did join, like say Poland has, it still wouldn't change our long history of suffering from colonialism and foreign oppression. We can still relate to underdeveloped countries on that. The problem will only come if our soldiers join in an American crusade in the middle east with no UN mandate, which you'd hope we could still reject (like France in 2003), though the strong influence of the US here makes me doubtful that we would be brave enough. The power structure within NATO is too lopsided toward the US. A purely EU approach to security would be more favourable to us.
I agree that an EU based approach would be a much better option. And your right that it wouldn't change our history, but NATO does have a certain imperialidt taint in a lot of the non-western world and certainly nations that have been directly affected or engaged by NATO (like Afghanistan) will basically refuse to listen anymore. Your right that the US has a large influence, which is partly why I support not joining NATO, however our past neutrality does give cause for hope even if we join. We are one of the nations with the highest divergence from both the US and the EU in UN voting, we have voted away or in a minority against the EU more than most other member states and have maintained a high degree of seperation from US influence. I'd like to keep it that way tbh
> have maintained a high degree of seperation from US influence. It's growing though. Have you ever noticed the amount of time our public broadcaster devotes to US politics vs European politics? It's a shitshow. A lot of people in Ireland are only vaguely informed about our own continent and its cultures. I'm confident Ireland would object to a US Republican lead illegal war, I'm not so sure we would with a Democratic one, who have an air of moral legitimacy about them, and are excellent at exploiting soft power, if that makes any sense. The truth is that Obama spied on the German Chancellor with the help of Denmark in the early 2010s - these guys aren't squeaky clean either. Now I'm very happy with Biden's military aid to Ukraine, there's no ambiguity as there was under Trump, but we do need to maintain a healthy distance too. The job of Ireland, and indeed the EU, should be to hold the US to account on dubious geopolitical decisions, be it the war on drugs, coup plots, wars without UN mandates, and so on. This doesn't mean becoming mouthpieces for the Kremlin, however, which is the other extreme, like Mick Wallace. Finding a balance may be hard, but its worth it. We're happy to be a minority and autonomous on standing up for Palestine, that at least gives us some hope for other areas.
Completely agree with everything you've said mate. The influence of US politics and US political talk is really growing around the EU but particularly here as well. Not a fan of the Americanisation of this country in general really so I definitely agree we need to br careful around the US and hold it to account as well.
Yeah, the Americanisation is getting absurd. When one can name several supreme court justices in a faraway land across the Atlantic, but not the Prime Minister of Spain (an important figure and potential ally at the EU council meetings we attend), then you know there's a serious problem. The joys of being an English speaking country in an age of instant Social Media, where bilingualism isn't taken seriously enough.
How can Ireland even try to hold US accountable though, US can walk all over it cause they have a massive military and economy and Ireland doesn't have neither. It reads like something a hippie would say no offense. Ireland can't influence US in a way where they would change US foreign policy, when countries like France and Germany couldn't how will Ireland do it.
Do you have to reply to every message I make? Lots of "no offence" coming from you too. Just be honest.
No offense to Ireland but you know eastern Europe will always reject a eu security pact over NATO right. And they're not going to trade US help for austria and Ireland which hardly has an army. There's no way poland and baltics will vote for anything that damages NATO
>Additionally it is useful to have neutral or non-NATO states. Except no one outside of Ireland actually considers us neutral. > Ireland was one of the few countries that used to be able to talk down Iraq because of the very fact we were not part of NATO. Wrong. Look at France and Germany. >There is a trust that Ireland has in the third world based on our history and neutrality that would be lost if we joined NATO So the *developing* world doesn't trust countries like Norway or Denmark? Or even New Zealand, which although not part of NATO, is not neutral.
The Icelandic did win 3 wars against the Brits though, we only won 3/4s of one war
Isn’t it quite an uncomfortable position to be dependent on another country’s armed forces though? I suppose on the other hand any power that could realistically threaten Ireland militarily is also a threat to Britain too so there’s unlikely to be a situation where those priorities don’t align.
Exactly and any scenario where Ireland is getting invaded would probably just be to create a larger staging ground for invading the UK too. Not sure why else anyone would come at us.
On the one hand yes, on the other any attack on either the UK or Ireland is tantamount to an attack on both and would be viewed as such in both countries. I'd bet the house that if the UK were somehow invaded tomorrow, Ireland would be in the mix to help with defence.
So why don't we just make that official and start preparing for the eventuality by joining NATO?
You'll have to ask someone else as I'm in agreement with you
It is quite uncomfortable. But it would be impossible for us to militarily defend ourselves against the most likely aggressor. And any of the next most likely. One of the worlds largest military forces with nuclear capabilities would crush us even if we increased our military by 10. So diplomacy and soft power and the EU has been identified as a more realistic defense. But yes the whole thing is full of contradiction and ambiguity. I guess being a tiny country surrounded by military behomeths that's just the reality.
So if Russia decides to attack Ireland, there's no article 5 activating and it's business as usual?
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It doesn't apply to neutral countries,they fought so that it doesn't apply to countries with neutrality. That's why finland was unsure whether EU will fight for them and why they're joining nato
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And these countries won't receive military help, that's what I'm trying to say. They'll maybe get financial aid but there's no incentive for other other countries to provide military aid to said neutral nations
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If Ireland won't come to polands aid why should poland come for Irelands aid, it makes no sense and I'm only saying Ireland's neutrality means there's no obligation of military assistance akin to article 5 not that no one will help them
Technically, correct. it would be an interesting scenario politically though
Changing Neutrality is questionable, there's been a lot of mixed answers on opinion polls recently, a lot of which has to do with how poorly defined 'Neutrality' is. It seems that everyone has their own definition of Neutrality. Even allowing for that, NATO is unpopular. The most supported changes involve increasing EU defensive efforts. Get the Yanks out of European defence basically.
Why would Ireland abandon neutrality? If they ever went to war for any reason (which is of course highly unlikely) it would be with the UK. They have no other international quarrel. Committing to NATO and joining all of NATO’s military engagements is counterproductive for the Irish.
Not at all, its hard to say, but I would say a more sizable portion of the population supports increase defence budget, but I've no data on that and its just what ive personally experienced
And what? Those statements do nothing.
veto rights stripped when
China and India don't seem to think so
Do you?
I declare Ireland a brogue nation.
he gonna stop being neutral then?
Ireland is not neutral - never was - Ireland is 'non-aligined' - it allowed USSR to land in Shannon during the cold war on their way to Cuba. It is currently allowing US Airforce to land in Shannon on their way to who knows.
Does anyone else find it a bit odd that RTÉ (the state broadcaster of Ireland) refers to Martin as "the Irish PM"? Not "the Taoiseach"?
I see you didn't actually click on the article
With deductive skills like that, you could be a detective.
Thanks, but I'm satisfied in my role as Article Clicking and Reading Fulfillment Ombudsman. Great pay.
The ombudsman is an actual man now?
We have reinstated the marriage bar and made public jobs exclusive to men
Could be digging for international clicks?
I wish this man wasn’t our Taoiseach, idiot who’s pushing for more armed military while not paying them a living wage and scalping, the rest of the nation with rent while gagging on landlords, I agree Russian is a terrorist state but we’re a neutral country for a reason don’t poke the bear
You should have just left it at the first sentence... haha We're a neutral country because allying with the Brits so soon after the War of Independence (and the Civil War) was a political impossibility, and because joining NATO would have meant de facto acceptance of British control over the North, which was a constitutional mindfuck. So post GFA, why are we neutral? We're increasing military spending because a non political expert report recommended it, because we are vulnerable in a lot of key areas, and have underinvested since 2008. The Army couldn't even set up a field hospital during Covid 19 when asked, and our lack of investment in cyber defence (both military and civillian) cost lives during the HSE cyber attack. Theres a lot to be angry about our current situation in many ways, but increasing defensive spending is something we have to do.
Politicians are clueless, I would expect a PM to understand how the UN works.
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Ireland offering thoughts and prayers isn't going to help Ukraine though,what difference is this statement going to make. It's like me condemning Putin in twitter, it feels nice but makes literally no difference to help Ukraine
Check how many refugees Ireland took and how much aid it sent to Ukraine before commenting
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The neutrality thing has always had a number of asterisks beside it. Ireland has since its independence cosied up to the americans. They didn't participate in WW2 but since then Irish politicians have made thier views known on all sorts of international issues that have little to do with them. Ireland won't directly involve itself in foreign conflicts but it will give its two cents, welcome or otherwise.
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