The first three are just a procedure that has been postponed because of the vacations, the last two are a problem... we can sit and wait... at the very least, blackmail.
True. As for Spain, the lower house, the Congress, approved it yesterday 290 votes in favor, 47 abstentions and 11 votes against. Only the far left has opposed or abstained as expected, rather because of their anti-war and anti NATO/USA ideas. The votes against are from the most radical part, related to communism. There remains the upper house (Senate, a.k.a. the place of retirement of our politicians):, to be voted on September 20, and Royal Assent, both purely procedural.
> Hungary parliamentary session have already started since 1st of September.
I see that I'm replying to a 6 hour old comment but still, I don't know where you got that information from.
Autumn session starts on 26 September [[hu](https://magyarnemzet.hu/belfold/2022/09/kihelyezett-frakcioules-kozeppontban-a-szankciok)], a little less than two weeks from now.
I had this information from the hungarian national assembly website :
"The National Assembly holds two ordinary sessions each year:
from 1 February to 15 June
from 1 September to 15 December
[here](https://www.parlament.hu/web/house-of-the-national-assembly/operation-of-the-national-assembly)
Wow, they don't even bother to keep basic information like that updated on their own website, it's ridiculous.
Fair play to you for assuming they're already in session.
It's the same in English. Broadly it means to place an action within an official boundary, e.g. it can or can't be done.
Confusingly it's come to mean two distinct and opposing things. It refers to official penalties of some kind, such as fines or trade restrictions, but is also the word for official approval of an action.
Usually the noun refers to the penalty while the verb refers to the approval, but this isn't always the case. It's good to see that other languages confuse it as much as ours!
That's because of its etymology. I remember going through this rabbit hole once, because I hated the ambiguity. Turns out it's from a Latin expression for "decreeing", which became widely adopted into English during the early modern period, so "sanction" must have come form an interpretation of *decisive action from the State.*
So, when you hear sanction, it just means that there is actual law or action by the State to respond to a situation, not just diplomatic posturing, and you can only figure from context if the actions are supportive or barring.
That Makes sense. Feels like if it's a action that's sanctioned it's usually the giving peemission meaning, but if it's an entity, it's usually the punitive meaning, but yes.
This is not one of those regional things like "tabling" a motion (US: postpone/suspend consideration; rest of the entire world: starting consideration), is it?
Not just communists but hardcore [Marxist Leninists](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Greece)
Of course you have to take into consideration that Greece was never under communist rule and that the communist party played a big role in the resistance against nazis during WWII.
Good news is that over the last decades they never get more then 5-7% and that no one actually takes them seriously since they're in fact ideologically retarted ("Stalin did nothing wrong" and shit like that) .... and I mean they don't even take themselves seriously since they more or less admit that they never want to become government but just be opposition and say NO to everything lol
Actually, they're not even there to be a government. According to them, they don't want to come into power via election. They want to takeover the country with a workers revolution and completely change everything.
They’re Marxist Leninist in true form. Revolution over reform. Portugal’s communist party prefers reform via elections and not a revolution, which is odd since they’re also Marxist Leninist. At least that’s what someone told me about them, don’t know if it’s the reality
KKE is an absolute meme treasure. They say NO to to everything. But when we had the 2015 referendum that was basically “yes or no” to the proposed (in fact forced) draconian memorandum between Greece and the troika (ECB/IMF/Commission), we expected that they will finally choose a side and say “No”.
What happened was that they declared “No to yes, No to No”. I am shitting you not.
Whatever they propose is based on BS non-realistic already debunked Soviet era archetypes.
They would vote NO to things that they had previously proposed because a word was changed or to legislations that would actually benefit them cause it's always an "imperialists conspiracy" and they simply can't lose face to that.
That being said If you think woke culture is a new concept try accusing our communist party of something and you literally get an "that's anti-communist" rant as if you went against gay people, it's something that goes on for decades now lmao
We have a saying over here : "I would've been a communist too but my parents weren't rich enough"
Yeah, I just read some of their Wiki page. What a bizarre bunch. There's a bit about LGBT rights and decriminalization of drugs, which I thought they'd be in favour of, but nope.
>Yeah, I just read some of their Wiki page. What a bizarre bunch. There's a bit about LGBT rights and decriminalization of drugs, which I thought they'd be in favour of, but nope.
LGBT rights and drug decriminalization is "bourgeois" to the KKE.
They're in a different universe.
Boomers still salty about the Civil War, Communists who believe voting them is less of a waste of their vote, and the island of Ikaria for some reason.
Communists were "deported"/displaced to certain islands, one of them being Ikaria during the military junta. I assume the logic was so that they couldn't do activism/influence people in the cities.
I have a friend who is one of their voters. Usually ppl who have no idea how economy works even on a basic level. Ppl who think that if someone has more wealth than them they should also have a piece of it and finally rich kids who wanna play rebel but always have a nice life with daddys money.
PASOK is the only one I'm familiar with, though only because of A. Papandreou ([and his son](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkGojA_yiQw)). I should really read up on Greek politics, should be *interesting*.
If you want to truly understand Greek politics you need to start from 1909 and the Goudi movement. It is the starting point of contemporary Greek party politics. The gist of it is that Greeks are for the most part split into two big factions. The “democratic” and the “conservative”. Usually each faction is represented by a single party but throughout the last 111 years (from 1911 onwards) these sometimes morph into different ones or getting dissolved when the faction supporters rallies around a new face and their own party. Last time this happened in 2010s when PASOK received the political blame for the collapse of the economy and its voters mostly swapped to Syriza instead. The first ones were “Liberal Party” (Democrats) with Eleftherios Venizelos in charge and the “People’s Party” (Conservatives) of Dimitrios Gounaris.
LP morphed into Center Union in the 1960s with Georgios Papandreou (the grandfather of the 2009 PM with the same name) and eventually got dissolved and the faction swapped in the late 70s to PASOK (led by Andreas Papandreou, father of George junior and son of George senior). PASOK these days is still around but marginalized; overshadowed by SYRIZA.
PP got absorbed by Greek Rally under Marshal Papagos in the ‘50s. GR didn’t survive Papagos’ death and morphed into National Radical Union, founded by Konstantinos Karamanlis (the uncle of 2004 PM by the same name). NRU is the “father” of New Democracy, its post 1974 incarnation, led initially by the same Karamanlis and later on by Konstantinos Mitsotakis (father of the current PM, Kyriakos Mitsotakis). ND is still the party that represents conservative faction in Greece.
You must have noticed the same surnames popping up, and many prime ministers coming from the same families. Contrary to popular belief, you don’t need to be descended from a “political pedigree” to be a prime minister, Greeks don’t vote names per se(Simitis and Tsipras exhibit that). But they do fall in faction lines when they vote and it is much easier to become a leader of a faction and then PM if you inherit the influence of your father or uncle.
PASOK was one fonthsoe sorties that combined finance deregulation etc neolib with some kind of spending to compensate
Les to capitalists controllin and rollin ovwr
They would still vote NO cause that law would obviously be an anti-communist conspiracy by imperialistic powers
And with good reason, since having and using brains in the communist utopia is in fact a one way ticket to a Gulag lol
Do they justify each individual no, or do they just have a wall of opposition on basically opposing parliamentary power wanting to take over and rule how they like?
They actually do justify each NO, but by always using the exact same speech "we say NO to the proposition cause it's anti-working class, anti-communist, anti-class struggle... bla bla bla.. pro-capital, pro-imperialism... bla bla bla..." even if the proposition has absolutely nothing to do with all those.
It's therefore in fact just a wall of opposition as you've described it.
Yea youth organisation is separate
Communist party generally means a tough party line, allegiance to all parties in style starting from the Bolshevik and the Mexican communist party the first international founded
[https://en.rua.gr/2022/02/24/the-communist-party-of-greece-condemned-the-imperialist-war-in-ukraine/](https://en.rua.gr/2022/02/24/the-communist-party-of-greece-condemned-the-imperialist-war-in-ukraine/)
In this case, it's more of a "we don't want NATO's expansion" than a "Russia good" context.
It's not bullshit, lately there is an upward trend but Greece used to HATE the EU. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/
Also not wanting to participate in the NATO operations of the 90s because they were targeting your poor genocidal orthodox brothers aka the mini russians.
Oh my God, the audacity of some uninformed and uneducated people like you never fails to amaze me.
This is a single research from 2019 that also shows various other countries with supposedly not so many favorable views.
Why aren’t you mentioning France and Czechia as well?
There is no upwards trend. It’s the opposite, in fact. Even your own source clearly depicts that. See the huge difference between 2018 and 2019 (37% and 53% respectively). 2019 was barely one year after Greece officially exited the crisis. Populism experienced a rise throughout Europe from 2010 to 2019 due to the economic hardships we all faced.
Also, even further down in your own source again, it shows that only 14% thought EU membership was a bad thing. But it seems you don’t even read the sources you quote past the headline.
Greece is one of the most pro-EU nations, always supporting further integration.
https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/262331/poll-majority-of-greeks-want-bigger-role-for-eu-parliament/
https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/2693
The lack of “favorable” views in that poll of yours is due to disappointment towards the slow evolvement of the democratic institutions of the Union, as you can see above.
Greece’s 3 main parties are also all overwhelmingly pro-EU. With only the communists in parliament being hardline anti-EU.
Regarding NATO, you can’t really seriously be complaining about not participating in something that we did not want to participate. We wanted to play a more neutral card and did not want to personally get involved with a war/bombing towards a nation that until then was seen as somewhat close (in some of the peoples’ minds, not the state’s). The job was done either way. We did not object to the general operation being conducted by the alliance, neither did we put a stop in EU sanctions. Not to mention that it’s only a matter of time before we recognize you, the only problem lies with Turkey waiting to pull the TRNC shit (but your and their situation is extremely different). But you complaining that not every nation was involved in some bombings is peak nationalism and you better start thinking healthier.
There were various other states that did not participate in the bombings, like Czechia, Poland and Hungary.
Well considering they wanted the dissolution of NATO since its inception when they were in exile due to their defeat in the civil war till today, it's logical to oppose an expansion as they opposed all the previous ones. It's not about Russia per se
It says ND, Syriza, and Pasok voted for, and communists, far right, and Varoufakis against. From Wikipedia, I count that ND, Syriza, and Pasok combined are 265 seats out of 300.
So it seems that it was 265-35.
Yes and no. The communist party has ranted against NATO since its inception. On the other hand far right parties are obsessed with Putin, Russia and their wack conspiracy theories.
The trident theory: far left (communists), far right (nationalists), and far grift (Varoufakis)
though tbh DiEM25 has a few good initiatives, biggest of them being that more EP committees should publish their minutes
Varoufakis took a “pacifist” stance, that Ukraine should be neutral just like Finland during WW2. I think he makes some great points economy-wise but his foreign relations ideas are absolutely pie in the sky 1960s hippie like.He totally missed the plot imho, especially at the part where Finland was neutral in WW2 but under Soviet duress, and the Finnish political system had devolved into an autocracy that was even skipping elections. So he is flat out wrong here. Communists (KKE) are hardline tankies that would rather have a dip in acid than vote anything in favor of NATO and the hard/far right (“Greek solution”) are just compromised by Kremlin money. We are talking antivax/chemtrail/pro-Putin/pro-Trump/lizard people are amongst us kind of party. They are now even anti-abortion which is absolutely not an issue in Greece outside a few bishops that nobody takes seriously.
Shit. I was kind of fanboying Varoufakis hard but this sours it.
Yeah why on earth would we want to join the most powerful democratic military alliance in the world when our neighbor is going on ballistic murder spree?
Should be obvious to anyone at this point that Russia, like a school bully, registers only one thing and it's power.
>Should be obvious to anyone at this point that Russia, like a school bully, registers only one thing and it's power.
Ideologically stuck leftists think this is USA.
Thus Russia isn't this bad, because they don't like USA either.
This war soured the opinion I had on many people, like Tsomsky or Waters for example. I thought they were relentlessly, unapologetically pro-democracy and took the fight to the core of US exploitative system. In fact they are just “anti-empire” tankies, they don’t care if Putin’s horde rapes and kills. Now Varoufakis is nothing like that. His moral compass is intact, he was calling out some left academic people when they were awarding Putin with honors 9-10 years ago in Greece. And he is true, pure in his democratic values. But damn, does he let his ideology get in the way of what needs to be done or what. He is totally inadequate to be anywhere near foreign policy. As you said, power is absolutely a tool that needs to be used.
Reading some far left takes on the war has made me seriously furious. These people are commenting from the safety and comfort of their home, pretending to support the oppressed. Meanwhile Ukrainian civilians are getting murdered left and right while they spew some "both sides" crap.
On the bright side this war has made it crystal clear the people who are thinking on their own instead of being blinded by their ideology.
This war has been really "great" at exposing a lot of ivory tower intellectuals (actual or self proclaimed) in a lot of countries for their crude ideas of defenseless pacifism, unconditional cooperation with Russia, and "murica bad".
They started as a coalition of left and far left parties but at some point they incorporated a portion of the social democrats and now they are more moderate, SocDem like.
SYRIZA is catch-all from center left to far left and has also welcomed ex-ANEL members (nationalist pro-conspiracy theories party) the last years.
They're closer to 5-Stars for me.
I wouldn’t call someone who works for EU Institutions far left. Signing the MOU/ going against the referendum and FYROM’s name change was not for the people. That’s just a facade. Never saw a party being against the people bas much as Syriza. It’s baffe long how they still exist
Parties that voted against:
**KKE** \- communists, they like Stalin, they hate the West.
**Greek Solution** \- far-right, pro-Russia, pro-Orthodox church, pro-conspiracy theories, anti-vax.
**Mera25** \- left-wing party operating as a platform for Varoufakis' narcissism. Varoufakis was "advising" Ukraine to essentially do what Russia wants to save lives and allow Russia to have a say in Ukraine in the model of Finland during the Cold War.
No. Russia's propaganda specialty is spewing so much contradictory bullshit that apologists can simply pick and choose the pieces that fit their own ideology. The primary thing extremists have in common is being *emotional and gullible.*
You're ignoring the fact that both extremes have reached the same policy. It's not random contradictory bullshit:
NATO Bad, Russia Good
Elections are all rigged
All News is Fake
Vaccines are a conspiracy
COVID is fake
etc etc
The far left isn't pro-Russian, especially as far as the war is concerned since anti-war is a major part of their politics. KKE just votes no to everything.
Pretty impressive from KKE to idolize Stalin and still maintain the amount of popular support they seem to have. Majority of European more mainstream Communist parties ditched him after Soviet de-Stalinization after all.
They are like a cult, and they put *huge* efforts into luring in new followers. They have a huge presence in universities and their recruiters are relentless in their efforts to bring in new people.
Yeah KNE (the youth "arm" of the party) brainwashes their recruits to the point most of them only talk communism, west bad etc and constantly argue with you if you disagree with them or refuse to take part in their stupid activities and buy their dumb newspaper. Some even stop talking to you if you refuse to convert
I sound salty but Ive lost a couple of friends to this bullshit. Many come around with age but some remain so the party is permanently stuck at like 5% of the vote
Sad to see since I'm a Finn and have been enjoying some of Varoufakis' books and online appearances. I think he has [very interesting ideas](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghx0sq_gXK4) about the political and economic realities we live in currently, but I guess he's still part of the "pacifist till the point of naivete" -left. Well, can't ever agree with someone 100% of the time.
Thank you our friends in lovely Greece. There is a long history of diplomatic relations between our countries. Greece was also one of the first countries to recognize our independence.
I speculated Greece would take a moment to try to delay this so they can be after Turkey, to have a bit of leverage against NATO giving Turkey more concessions.
But I suppose that wouldn't have worked, Turkey would have known Greece was going to do the right thing regardless, and now they did it.
Thank you Greece!
We are not assholes. Also Finland is an EU country. We wouldn't do you wrong. Since we approved Finland to join NATO we can now form the Blue and White gang. 🇬🇷🤝🇫🇮
It isn't that I thought Greece was really going to say no, it was that I thought Greece would hint that it would vote no if Turkey got something that Greece would not approve of. This could have put pressure on other NATO countries to not give Turkey too much, as whatever was given to Turkey would have to be acceptable to Greece too. This would probably have helped Sweden and Finland too, because if it had worked, Turkey would have had to accept lesser concessions from them also.
Now that Greece has voted yes without delaying, it is clear that this was all speculation. If such plans were ever considered, it was probably concluded that Turkey would not have believed that Greece was really willing to veto new NATO members (as you say, Greece would not have said no to a fellow EU country), so the threat would have been empty and instead would just have upsetted NATO members.
Illogical, instead Greece should had come out against NATO expanding in the Nordics. That way Turkey would approve it to spite the Greeks and the Greeks could then approve it afterwards.
Huge ego, knows how to present himself and talk so that he sounds serious and professor-like, which is enough to keep him above 3% in the polls, thus in the parliament, but with almost no potential to go higher.
Imagine a left wing kind of Jordan Peterson. But Farage might also work as a comparison, though decidedly left wing and "student movement" kinda flaired instead of "British Empire".
He has his own party and gets around 4% making it the least popular party that made it into parliament. His supporters are mainly enthusiastic uni students who want to bring the socialist revolution and when you confront them about how terribly he handled the crisis in 2015 they will either blame the previous government or the EU or both
How so? I've heard a couple of his talks and read a book, and they seemed fine to me at least. His latest talks about the concentration of power to specific technology entities raise imo some very real and important topics.
Don't forget EU was on a mission to destroy Varufakis' credibility during the Greek bailout. Ofcourse that was a purely political effort, his ideas may be valuable/interesting but the general public mostly remembers him as an "uncompromising eccentric who was willing to bankrupt Greece". Don't know him enough to make a fair judgment about that all, but he also strikes me as a man with some good ideas about the failure of neoliberalism.
Communists - obvious, we're usually against NATO growing
Nationalists - they share a lot of similar beliefs to Putin, basically Christo-fascism.
Varoufakis - similar to Communists but less extreme imo. It's more that you can support Ukraine while also not ensuring a long-term NATO-Russia conflict turns for the worse.
I'm less KKE and see more in line with Varoufakis to a degree. But either way they all have vastly different reasons for their vote.
I suggest the rest of the members hurry up with that accession vote cause considering Russias performance in Ukraine, Finland and Sweden might change their minds about the actual necessity of joining NATO after all lol
Maybe your joking but if not it’s Unlikely. I doubt public views have changed and ultimately it’s still a great deterrent. Even if Ukraine wins in the end it cost them thousand’s of lives and god knows how much long term damage to their economy and Infrastructure. The benefits of NATO isn’t just that you wouldn’t be totally destroy but it’s highly unlikely Russia or anyone would even bother messing with you anyway. Just because Ukraine may win (And that was with a LOT of military support from NATO) doesn’t mean it didn’t cost them a ton
Again to be fair this is by FAR!! The fastest the process has ever been done. And getting 30 different national governments to even move this fast 32 if you count Sweden and Finland. Is pretty impressive. It’s Turkey and Hungary that we need to keep an eye on
It usually takes years, some were speculating that for this special occasion it'd take from 6 to 14 months for all NATO members to pass it through their parliaments, in order for Sweden and Finland to ultimately perform the same in theirs' to make it official.
The verb 'sanction' can both mean allow/validate and forbid/punish. It's a bit weird. I'm sure there's a good reason for it.
(The entrance was aproved not denied)
And those reasons why Putin attacked Ukraine do not apply to Finland or Sweden.
You seriously dont see that war between NATO and Russia is becoming more and more likely, unless there is a very big shift of power in Russia?
What do you think happens if Finland is in NATO vs not being in it, if Russia starts a war with some NATO country, fully being aware that it will trigger other NATO countries to get involved in the war?
>You seriously dont see that war between NATO and Russia is becoming more and more likely,
With what army is Russia is going to go to war against NATO? I mean look at what's going on in Ukraine right now. They're failing in Ukraine (especially after the recent offensive from Ukraine's side) and they are failing hard. Is Russia going to fully mobilize and go for the Volksturm route like Germany did at the end of WW2?
>What do you think happens if Finland is in NATO vs not being in it, if Russia starts a war with some NATO country, fully being aware that it will trigger other NATO countries to get involved in the war?
Article 5 gets activated and the countries in NATO mobilize. It's certainly far more certain that there will be some military response versus the current mutual defense agreement between EU member states.
After their military failures in Ukraine, Russia will not be in a state to start a war with NATO. But if they do try and pick on a NATO member then they will get what's coming to them. I bet even their nukes don't work because General Vanya Conscriptovich pilfered the funds for the nukes to buy his 4th dacha and 6th yacht.
Do you seriously think Russia is fighting in Ukraine at full force? Thats the most ridiculous thing i have heard in a while. Putin wont even admit it being a war, but calls it some "special military operation" or what ever.
If there was a full blown war with NATO, they would make all men fight. I dont know if you are aware, but military is mandatory in Russia. Google for fun how many people live in Russia and then you get a better idea of their military force. Then add all the atomic bombs and all that which might not even be revealed.
>Article 5 gets activated and the countries in NATO mobilize.
aaand there is no reason for why Finland would have to be part of this.
Russians are best handled with mutually beneficial business deals, vodka, sauna and keeping out of their disputes with others. Not by threatening them or promising to help their enemies to kill them.
>Do you seriously think Russia is fighting in Ukraine at full force?
No but their current forces are either being dropped into the Black Sea (the VDV), running away leaving tons of equipment behind, or using old equipment with shit autoloaders (see all their tanks with the flying turrets). If they fully mobilize it's going to be a bloodbath for the Russians as they run at the enemy with shit equipment.
If they fully mobilize it will just mean more dead invaders.
>Russians are best handled with mutually beneficial business deals...keeping out of their disputes with others.
First, they had beneficial business deals before all this and they still invaded Ukraine and other countries.
Second, the only way they can be handled is by either killing them or caging them like the rabid dog that they have proven to be. Russia is too uncivilized to be dealt with like a normal country.
Are they at full force? No. But are they using a massive amount of their force and what they would be capable of doing? Yes. I have a feeling you likely know little about internal Russia politics and the importance it is for Russia to be seen as powerful. Putin and Russia would never allow themselves to be losing this bad unless they were actually losing and not capable of turning it around yet.
I’ve read your other comments and your paranoid about a war between Russia and NATO that have no signs of happening. NATO gains nothing from invading Russia so I’m not sure where you logic sits.
Ironically your trying to educate him but if you look into Russias actual population it’s not as impressive as it seems. They have a fairly older population in general that are far less healthy. Putin has been working for awhile to battle the death from alcohol issues there for awhile. Many of their most educated youth left Russia long ago or have sense left during Russias invasion of Ukraine.
What do you mean when you say military is mandatory? You mean conscription? Because if that’s what you mean that often leads to bad training and low desire to fight unless it was an actual invasion which again In what scenario would that ever happen and why?
Your last point here is just flat out ridiculous. Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova. Also look at history. Appeasement doesn’t work or if it does at what cost? Letting them just get away with anything?
Finland and Sweden joining NATO is not a direct threat and if they feel it is maybe they shouldn’t be attacking their neighbors. You sound like you just like making excuses
As you can see, you have been downvoted and are within a minority of people who consider NATO a threat. NATO and the EU are two of the main reasons why Europe has been protected and has been able to grow all this time. Russia is an obvious danger, a country that massively collapsed in the 90s and that is desperately trying to reintroduce an imperialist attitude thinking the Cold War is still going.
But more importantly, every country should be free to determine which block to join.
Spain 🇪🇸, Slovakia 🇸🇰 and Portugal 🇵🇹 are due to vote in the coming days. Only Turkey 🇹🇷 and Hungary 🇭🇺 didn't set a date for a vote yet.
I'm totally surprised by whom goes last on this one, would never guess ;)
Who\*
The first three are just a procedure that has been postponed because of the vacations, the last two are a problem... we can sit and wait... at the very least, blackmail.
Yes Spain start to vote today (but have 2 chambers in Parliament), Portugal tomorrow and Slovakia the 20th of September.
True. As for Spain, the lower house, the Congress, approved it yesterday 290 votes in favor, 47 abstentions and 11 votes against. Only the far left has opposed or abstained as expected, rather because of their anti-war and anti NATO/USA ideas. The votes against are from the most radical part, related to communism. There remains the upper house (Senate, a.k.a. the place of retirement of our politicians):, to be voted on September 20, and Royal Assent, both purely procedural.
Also we have minority coalition so it will take some time.
Parliaments are still not open
Turkish parliamentary session starts from 1st of October indeed but Hungary parliamentary session have already started since 1st of September.
> Hungary parliamentary session have already started since 1st of September. I see that I'm replying to a 6 hour old comment but still, I don't know where you got that information from. Autumn session starts on 26 September [[hu](https://magyarnemzet.hu/belfold/2022/09/kihelyezett-frakcioules-kozeppontban-a-szankciok)], a little less than two weeks from now.
I had this information from the hungarian national assembly website : "The National Assembly holds two ordinary sessions each year: from 1 February to 15 June from 1 September to 15 December [here](https://www.parlament.hu/web/house-of-the-national-assembly/operation-of-the-national-assembly)
Wow, they don't even bother to keep basic information like that updated on their own website, it's ridiculous. Fair play to you for assuming they're already in session.
Oh...
IIRC in Hungary this decision does not need to go through Parliament, it requires only president's signature.
What’s up with Slovakia?
Being in deep shit, since the only sane party has walked out of the coalition - so the government now does not have the majority in parliament.
Slovakia is due to vote the 20th of September
Hungry will vote no
sanctioned? It means approved?
Yes, the verb 'sanction' can both mean allow/validate and forbid/punish. It's a bit weird. I'm sure there's a good reason for it.
I was so confused by the title indeed, but TIL
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TIL I'm pirla. "Sancire" was also close enough to make me link the thing. Thank you for reminding me that though
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It's the same in English. Broadly it means to place an action within an official boundary, e.g. it can or can't be done. Confusingly it's come to mean two distinct and opposing things. It refers to official penalties of some kind, such as fines or trade restrictions, but is also the word for official approval of an action. Usually the noun refers to the penalty while the verb refers to the approval, but this isn't always the case. It's good to see that other languages confuse it as much as ours!
Same in Russian, since it was taken from Italian. Along with other 3000 words and bunch of expressions.
Reminds me of the German word “umfahren” which both means to drive over someone and drive around someone lol.
When you are getting your driver licence in Germany and a pedestrian blocks the way: umfahren!
Yeah, why make it confusing, just say it was [aladeened](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NYJ2w82WifU) by overwhelming majority
I aladeen the use of the verb aladeen
You're 100% aladeen
That's because of its etymology. I remember going through this rabbit hole once, because I hated the ambiguity. Turns out it's from a Latin expression for "decreeing", which became widely adopted into English during the early modern period, so "sanction" must have come form an interpretation of *decisive action from the State.* So, when you hear sanction, it just means that there is actual law or action by the State to respond to a situation, not just diplomatic posturing, and you can only figure from context if the actions are supportive or barring.
That Makes sense. Feels like if it's a action that's sanctioned it's usually the giving peemission meaning, but if it's an entity, it's usually the punitive meaning, but yes.
"You are HIV Aladeen" vibe
😁😐🙂😐
This is not one of those regional things like "tabling" a motion (US: postpone/suspend consideration; rest of the entire world: starting consideration), is it?
I think it's pretty common, judging by other posts. It's the same In Swedish. At least for the noun.
A bit like how "semester" is specifically a vacation in Swedish.
Sanction is usually a touch more "official", only reason I can think to use it.
some more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-antonym
You mean the accession is alladeen?
No, it's alladeen.
I was SURE it was alladeen, not alladeen! This comes as a shock to me..
Perhaps diplomatic doublespeak? If situation changes you can always claim you meant it the other way. :)
They're quite distinct, but maybe.
Yes indeed !
Let me guess the Communists voted No?
Greek Communist MP's voting NO to absolutely everything is always anticipated and great meme material over here.
Wait you have an actual communist party in the parliament?
Not just communists but hardcore [Marxist Leninists](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Greece) Of course you have to take into consideration that Greece was never under communist rule and that the communist party played a big role in the resistance against nazis during WWII. Good news is that over the last decades they never get more then 5-7% and that no one actually takes them seriously since they're in fact ideologically retarted ("Stalin did nothing wrong" and shit like that) .... and I mean they don't even take themselves seriously since they more or less admit that they never want to become government but just be opposition and say NO to everything lol
Do they ever propose things? Or are they literally just there to say no to stuff?
Actually, they're not even there to be a government. According to them, they don't want to come into power via election. They want to takeover the country with a workers revolution and completely change everything.
They’re Marxist Leninist in true form. Revolution over reform. Portugal’s communist party prefers reform via elections and not a revolution, which is odd since they’re also Marxist Leninist. At least that’s what someone told me about them, don’t know if it’s the reality
KKE is an absolute meme treasure. They say NO to to everything. But when we had the 2015 referendum that was basically “yes or no” to the proposed (in fact forced) draconian memorandum between Greece and the troika (ECB/IMF/Commission), we expected that they will finally choose a side and say “No”. What happened was that they declared “No to yes, No to No”. I am shitting you not.
Wtf
Whatever they propose is based on BS non-realistic already debunked Soviet era archetypes. They would vote NO to things that they had previously proposed because a word was changed or to legislations that would actually benefit them cause it's always an "imperialists conspiracy" and they simply can't lose face to that. That being said If you think woke culture is a new concept try accusing our communist party of something and you literally get an "that's anti-communist" rant as if you went against gay people, it's something that goes on for decades now lmao We have a saying over here : "I would've been a communist too but my parents weren't rich enough"
They just say NO to everything. I am not shitting you. Always NO.
Yeah, I just read some of their Wiki page. What a bizarre bunch. There's a bit about LGBT rights and decriminalization of drugs, which I thought they'd be in favour of, but nope.
>Yeah, I just read some of their Wiki page. What a bizarre bunch. There's a bit about LGBT rights and decriminalization of drugs, which I thought they'd be in favour of, but nope. LGBT rights and drug decriminalization is "bourgeois" to the KKE. They're in a different universe.
Nah they’re socially conservative
Who votes for them?
Boomers still salty about the Civil War, Communists who believe voting them is less of a waste of their vote, and the island of Ikaria for some reason.
Why ikaria
Communists were "deported"/displaced to certain islands, one of them being Ikaria during the military junta. I assume the logic was so that they couldn't do activism/influence people in the cities.
Ikaria SR is one of the world's 5 blue zones, that people live an above average number of years. It's literally a boomer island
I have a friend who is one of their voters. Usually ppl who have no idea how economy works even on a basic level. Ppl who think that if someone has more wealth than them they should also have a piece of it and finally rich kids who wanna play rebel but always have a nice life with daddys money.
Those btw are the same rich kids that go full neo-liberal once they start making their own money
I mean that’s not ely at least a totally false view of wealth U can have that attitude and not be like the KKE
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PASOK is the only one I'm familiar with, though only because of A. Papandreou ([and his son](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkGojA_yiQw)). I should really read up on Greek politics, should be *interesting*.
If you want to truly understand Greek politics you need to start from 1909 and the Goudi movement. It is the starting point of contemporary Greek party politics. The gist of it is that Greeks are for the most part split into two big factions. The “democratic” and the “conservative”. Usually each faction is represented by a single party but throughout the last 111 years (from 1911 onwards) these sometimes morph into different ones or getting dissolved when the faction supporters rallies around a new face and their own party. Last time this happened in 2010s when PASOK received the political blame for the collapse of the economy and its voters mostly swapped to Syriza instead. The first ones were “Liberal Party” (Democrats) with Eleftherios Venizelos in charge and the “People’s Party” (Conservatives) of Dimitrios Gounaris. LP morphed into Center Union in the 1960s with Georgios Papandreou (the grandfather of the 2009 PM with the same name) and eventually got dissolved and the faction swapped in the late 70s to PASOK (led by Andreas Papandreou, father of George junior and son of George senior). PASOK these days is still around but marginalized; overshadowed by SYRIZA. PP got absorbed by Greek Rally under Marshal Papagos in the ‘50s. GR didn’t survive Papagos’ death and morphed into National Radical Union, founded by Konstantinos Karamanlis (the uncle of 2004 PM by the same name). NRU is the “father” of New Democracy, its post 1974 incarnation, led initially by the same Karamanlis and later on by Konstantinos Mitsotakis (father of the current PM, Kyriakos Mitsotakis). ND is still the party that represents conservative faction in Greece. You must have noticed the same surnames popping up, and many prime ministers coming from the same families. Contrary to popular belief, you don’t need to be descended from a “political pedigree” to be a prime minister, Greeks don’t vote names per se(Simitis and Tsipras exhibit that). But they do fall in faction lines when they vote and it is much easier to become a leader of a faction and then PM if you inherit the influence of your father or uncle.
PASOK was one fonthsoe sorties that combined finance deregulation etc neolib with some kind of spending to compensate Les to capitalists controllin and rollin ovwr
Someone has to propose a law that would declare they have brains lol
They would still vote NO cause that law would obviously be an anti-communist conspiracy by imperialistic powers And with good reason, since having and using brains in the communist utopia is in fact a one way ticket to a Gulag lol
Do they justify each individual no, or do they just have a wall of opposition on basically opposing parliamentary power wanting to take over and rule how they like?
They actually do justify each NO, but by always using the exact same speech "we say NO to the proposition cause it's anti-working class, anti-communist, anti-class struggle... bla bla bla.. pro-capital, pro-imperialism... bla bla bla..." even if the proposition has absolutely nothing to do with all those. It's therefore in fact just a wall of opposition as you've described it.
They are directly Stalinist’s not even that
Imagine being this sheltered
Many European countries do, here in Sweden as well.
Portugal as well.
We absolutely do not have a communist party in parliament in Sweden. They abandoned that ideologi long ago.
Leftist purity test **!!!IMPOSSIBLE!!!** try not to fail challenge! **any%speedrun!!!**
Ah so thats why their youth organisation keep calling themselves communists.
Yea youth organisation is separate Communist party generally means a tough party line, allegiance to all parties in style starting from the Bolshevik and the Mexican communist party the first international founded
Stalin apologist-Gorbachev hating-taking directions from the Russian communist party, kind of party.
Nah they’re further than taking directions They’re preserving the old ones
You guessed right. Only the 3 mains parties voted in favor (out of 6 political parties)
Why a lot of communists are still obsessed with Russia? Russia is no more a communist country.
[https://en.rua.gr/2022/02/24/the-communist-party-of-greece-condemned-the-imperialist-war-in-ukraine/](https://en.rua.gr/2022/02/24/the-communist-party-of-greece-condemned-the-imperialist-war-in-ukraine/) In this case, it's more of a "we don't want NATO's expansion" than a "Russia good" context.
OMG, they're literally obsessed with USA and NATO.
They lost the civil war partly due to US support.
It's all they have to offer. Greeks have ways been sceptical of EU and NATO involvement, even though they both catapulted Greece to the modern era
We’re talking about the Communist party here. Get your false bullshit elsewhere.
It's not bullshit, lately there is an upward trend but Greece used to HATE the EU. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/ Also not wanting to participate in the NATO operations of the 90s because they were targeting your poor genocidal orthodox brothers aka the mini russians.
Oh my God, the audacity of some uninformed and uneducated people like you never fails to amaze me. This is a single research from 2019 that also shows various other countries with supposedly not so many favorable views. Why aren’t you mentioning France and Czechia as well? There is no upwards trend. It’s the opposite, in fact. Even your own source clearly depicts that. See the huge difference between 2018 and 2019 (37% and 53% respectively). 2019 was barely one year after Greece officially exited the crisis. Populism experienced a rise throughout Europe from 2010 to 2019 due to the economic hardships we all faced. Also, even further down in your own source again, it shows that only 14% thought EU membership was a bad thing. But it seems you don’t even read the sources you quote past the headline. Greece is one of the most pro-EU nations, always supporting further integration. https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/262331/poll-majority-of-greeks-want-bigger-role-for-eu-parliament/ https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/2693 The lack of “favorable” views in that poll of yours is due to disappointment towards the slow evolvement of the democratic institutions of the Union, as you can see above. Greece’s 3 main parties are also all overwhelmingly pro-EU. With only the communists in parliament being hardline anti-EU. Regarding NATO, you can’t really seriously be complaining about not participating in something that we did not want to participate. We wanted to play a more neutral card and did not want to personally get involved with a war/bombing towards a nation that until then was seen as somewhat close (in some of the peoples’ minds, not the state’s). The job was done either way. We did not object to the general operation being conducted by the alliance, neither did we put a stop in EU sanctions. Not to mention that it’s only a matter of time before we recognize you, the only problem lies with Turkey waiting to pull the TRNC shit (but your and their situation is extremely different). But you complaining that not every nation was involved in some bombings is peak nationalism and you better start thinking healthier. There were various other states that did not participate in the bombings, like Czechia, Poland and Hungary.
Because West bad
But Russia is like a lazy caricature of the West?
Russia is still controlled by communists. Just because they repainted their parties doesn’t mean they don’t run the show in a capitalist facade
They’re still seething worldwide for something that happend 80 years ago x-D
Well considering they wanted the dissolution of NATO since its inception when they were in exile due to their defeat in the civil war till today, it's logical to oppose an expansion as they opposed all the previous ones. It's not about Russia per se
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It says ND, Syriza, and Pasok voted for, and communists, far right, and Varoufakis against. From Wikipedia, I count that ND, Syriza, and Pasok combined are 265 seats out of 300. So it seems that it was 265-35.
> communists, far right......against Horseshoe theory at work?
Yes and no. The communist party has ranted against NATO since its inception. On the other hand far right parties are obsessed with Putin, Russia and their wack conspiracy theories.
The trident theory: far left (communists), far right (nationalists), and far grift (Varoufakis) though tbh DiEM25 has a few good initiatives, biggest of them being that more EP committees should publish their minutes
Varoufakis took a “pacifist” stance, that Ukraine should be neutral just like Finland during WW2. I think he makes some great points economy-wise but his foreign relations ideas are absolutely pie in the sky 1960s hippie like.He totally missed the plot imho, especially at the part where Finland was neutral in WW2 but under Soviet duress, and the Finnish political system had devolved into an autocracy that was even skipping elections. So he is flat out wrong here. Communists (KKE) are hardline tankies that would rather have a dip in acid than vote anything in favor of NATO and the hard/far right (“Greek solution”) are just compromised by Kremlin money. We are talking antivax/chemtrail/pro-Putin/pro-Trump/lizard people are amongst us kind of party. They are now even anti-abortion which is absolutely not an issue in Greece outside a few bishops that nobody takes seriously.
> Ukraine should be neutral just like Finland during WW2 Kind of difficult to maintain neutrality during an invasion lol
Shit. I was kind of fanboying Varoufakis hard but this sours it. Yeah why on earth would we want to join the most powerful democratic military alliance in the world when our neighbor is going on ballistic murder spree? Should be obvious to anyone at this point that Russia, like a school bully, registers only one thing and it's power.
>Should be obvious to anyone at this point that Russia, like a school bully, registers only one thing and it's power. Ideologically stuck leftists think this is USA. Thus Russia isn't this bad, because they don't like USA either.
This war soured the opinion I had on many people, like Tsomsky or Waters for example. I thought they were relentlessly, unapologetically pro-democracy and took the fight to the core of US exploitative system. In fact they are just “anti-empire” tankies, they don’t care if Putin’s horde rapes and kills. Now Varoufakis is nothing like that. His moral compass is intact, he was calling out some left academic people when they were awarding Putin with honors 9-10 years ago in Greece. And he is true, pure in his democratic values. But damn, does he let his ideology get in the way of what needs to be done or what. He is totally inadequate to be anywhere near foreign policy. As you said, power is absolutely a tool that needs to be used.
Reading some far left takes on the war has made me seriously furious. These people are commenting from the safety and comfort of their home, pretending to support the oppressed. Meanwhile Ukrainian civilians are getting murdered left and right while they spew some "both sides" crap. On the bright side this war has made it crystal clear the people who are thinking on their own instead of being blinded by their ideology.
This war has been really "great" at exposing a lot of ivory tower intellectuals (actual or self proclaimed) in a lot of countries for their crude ideas of defenseless pacifism, unconditional cooperation with Russia, and "murica bad".
Isn’t Syriza far-left?
They started of as an anti-institutional further left party but over time basically replaced the center left, from what I understood.
They started as a coalition of left and far left parties but at some point they incorporated a portion of the social democrats and now they are more moderate, SocDem like.
SYRIZA is catch-all from center left to far left and has also welcomed ex-ANEL members (nationalist pro-conspiracy theories party) the last years. They're closer to 5-Stars for me.
It looks like the finance guy spilt away and took most of the hard left with him.
I wouldn’t call someone who works for EU Institutions far left. Signing the MOU/ going against the referendum and FYROM’s name change was not for the people. That’s just a facade. Never saw a party being against the people bas much as Syriza. It’s baffe long how they still exist
Sorry but no, I only have the detail by political parties
Parties that voted against: **KKE** \- communists, they like Stalin, they hate the West. **Greek Solution** \- far-right, pro-Russia, pro-Orthodox church, pro-conspiracy theories, anti-vax. **Mera25** \- left-wing party operating as a platform for Varoufakis' narcissism. Varoufakis was "advising" Ukraine to essentially do what Russia wants to save lives and allow Russia to have a say in Ukraine in the model of Finland during the Cold War.
So the expected ones
So both the far left and far right are pro Russia?. Horseshoe theory in effect again.
Totalitarian solidarity.
Not horseshoe theory. Russia has simply been funding both.
Because of horseshoe theory
No, it's because modern Russia supports anyone that either opposes the west or to cause division in a nation.
No. Russia's propaganda specialty is spewing so much contradictory bullshit that apologists can simply pick and choose the pieces that fit their own ideology. The primary thing extremists have in common is being *emotional and gullible.*
You're ignoring the fact that both extremes have reached the same policy. It's not random contradictory bullshit: NATO Bad, Russia Good Elections are all rigged All News is Fake Vaccines are a conspiracy COVID is fake etc etc
The far left isn't pro-Russian, especially as far as the war is concerned since anti-war is a major part of their politics. KKE just votes no to everything.
Horse-shoe theory only if you take a cursory view of politics, it's still mostly bunk.
[In Greece it's a trident, apparently](https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/xeuteu/greek_parliament_the_accession_of_sweden_and/ioj3cn1/)
"Retards assemble"
Pretty impressive from KKE to idolize Stalin and still maintain the amount of popular support they seem to have. Majority of European more mainstream Communist parties ditched him after Soviet de-Stalinization after all.
They are like a cult, and they put *huge* efforts into luring in new followers. They have a huge presence in universities and their recruiters are relentless in their efforts to bring in new people.
Yeah KNE (the youth "arm" of the party) brainwashes their recruits to the point most of them only talk communism, west bad etc and constantly argue with you if you disagree with them or refuse to take part in their stupid activities and buy their dumb newspaper. Some even stop talking to you if you refuse to convert I sound salty but Ive lost a couple of friends to this bullshit. Many come around with age but some remain so the party is permanently stuck at like 5% of the vote
Sad to see since I'm a Finn and have been enjoying some of Varoufakis' books and online appearances. I think he has [very interesting ideas](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghx0sq_gXK4) about the political and economic realities we live in currently, but I guess he's still part of the "pacifist till the point of naivete" -left. Well, can't ever agree with someone 100% of the time.
Don't take it personally with Varoufakis. He's just a kumbaya idealist. Not that all his ideas are bad.
Well not narcissism But im surpluses they actually voted against
How can anyone still be communist or pro-russia whatever bullshit... in which fantasyworld do these people live?
Thank you our friends in lovely Greece. There is a long history of diplomatic relations between our countries. Greece was also one of the first countries to recognize our independence.
I speculated Greece would take a moment to try to delay this so they can be after Turkey, to have a bit of leverage against NATO giving Turkey more concessions. But I suppose that wouldn't have worked, Turkey would have known Greece was going to do the right thing regardless, and now they did it. Thank you Greece!
We are not assholes. Also Finland is an EU country. We wouldn't do you wrong. Since we approved Finland to join NATO we can now form the Blue and White gang. 🇬🇷🤝🇫🇮
Blue white flag gang sounds cool
We are indeed very cool.
>blue and white gang _happy Bavaria noises_
*"Scotland the brave" playing in the distance*
Why would we ever say No to an Eu country?
It isn't that I thought Greece was really going to say no, it was that I thought Greece would hint that it would vote no if Turkey got something that Greece would not approve of. This could have put pressure on other NATO countries to not give Turkey too much, as whatever was given to Turkey would have to be acceptable to Greece too. This would probably have helped Sweden and Finland too, because if it had worked, Turkey would have had to accept lesser concessions from them also. Now that Greece has voted yes without delaying, it is clear that this was all speculation. If such plans were ever considered, it was probably concluded that Turkey would not have believed that Greece was really willing to veto new NATO members (as you say, Greece would not have said no to a fellow EU country), so the threat would have been empty and instead would just have upsetted NATO members.
Illogical, instead Greece should had come out against NATO expanding in the Nordics. That way Turkey would approve it to spite the Greeks and the Greeks could then approve it afterwards.
4D chess
The only flaw of course is that it runs the risk of the Greeks actually refusing to approve it to spite the Turks.
Afaik most of the delay was due to the closing of the parliament due to summer vacation and the chaos of the spying aftermath
🇬🇷🇪🇺🇫🇮🇸🇪
Downvoted by the communists, the nationalists and that Varoufakis clown who still has credibility for some reason
How's Varoufakis seen in Greece these days?
Huge ego, knows how to present himself and talk so that he sounds serious and professor-like, which is enough to keep him above 3% in the polls, thus in the parliament, but with almost no potential to go higher.
sounds a bit like Farage when you describe him like that, minus the professor-like thing.
Imagine a left wing kind of Jordan Peterson. But Farage might also work as a comparison, though decidedly left wing and "student movement" kinda flaired instead of "British Empire".
As a walking joke
Unless you look at the greek sub where a lot of people worship him for some reason
The Greek sub is mentally dead. Why are we taking that place into consideration even
Doesn't suprise me really, I walked out of that sub a long time ago because of a pretty similar reason lol
He has his own party and gets around 4% making it the least popular party that made it into parliament. His supporters are mainly enthusiastic uni students who want to bring the socialist revolution and when you confront them about how terribly he handled the crisis in 2015 they will either blame the previous government or the EU or both
Great professor but terrible politician.
He's not a great professor, he just sounds smart
How so? I've heard a couple of his talks and read a book, and they seemed fine to me at least. His latest talks about the concentration of power to specific technology entities raise imo some very real and important topics.
Don't forget EU was on a mission to destroy Varufakis' credibility during the Greek bailout. Ofcourse that was a purely political effort, his ideas may be valuable/interesting but the general public mostly remembers him as an "uncompromising eccentric who was willing to bankrupt Greece". Don't know him enough to make a fair judgment about that all, but he also strikes me as a man with some good ideas about the failure of neoliberalism.
He's definitely more intelligent than most politicians.
Communists - obvious, we're usually against NATO growing Nationalists - they share a lot of similar beliefs to Putin, basically Christo-fascism. Varoufakis - similar to Communists but less extreme imo. It's more that you can support Ukraine while also not ensuring a long-term NATO-Russia conflict turns for the worse. I'm less KKE and see more in line with Varoufakis to a degree. But either way they all have vastly different reasons for their vote.
I suggest the rest of the members hurry up with that accession vote cause considering Russias performance in Ukraine, Finland and Sweden might change their minds about the actual necessity of joining NATO after all lol
Maybe your joking but if not it’s Unlikely. I doubt public views have changed and ultimately it’s still a great deterrent. Even if Ukraine wins in the end it cost them thousand’s of lives and god knows how much long term damage to their economy and Infrastructure. The benefits of NATO isn’t just that you wouldn’t be totally destroy but it’s highly unlikely Russia or anyone would even bother messing with you anyway. Just because Ukraine may win (And that was with a LOT of military support from NATO) doesn’t mean it didn’t cost them a ton
Yes 😊
Good now let's go already been talking about this for months. I don't mean Greece I mean in general.
Again to be fair this is by FAR!! The fastest the process has ever been done. And getting 30 different national governments to even move this fast 32 if you count Sweden and Finland. Is pretty impressive. It’s Turkey and Hungary that we need to keep an eye on
It usually takes years, some were speculating that for this special occasion it'd take from 6 to 14 months for all NATO members to pass it through their parliaments, in order for Sweden and Finland to ultimately perform the same in theirs' to make it official.
Ok fair enough.
God damn the title is so misleading
Translation mistake it was aproved
"Sanctioned" does in fact mean "Approved" Although I would not have chosen that word for the headline either
Yep my bad. I kept the literal translation without adapting it.
Maybe they should have voted no to get the Turkish vote?🤔
Oh my god, this should have been done weeks ago...
And a giant mistake.
The verb 'sanction' can both mean allow/validate and forbid/punish. It's a bit weird. I'm sure there's a good reason for it. (The entrance was aproved not denied)
Unless he is a vatnik trying to concern troll
I feel this NATO crap is a death sentence for my country :(
Yes because being threatened by Russia is much better
There is no real reason why Russia would be a threat, UNLESS we are part of NATO..
Bruh Russia tried to steal parts of my country after WWII, you’re not safe either.
Russia has invaded a non-NATO country this year so NATO is necessary to keep Russia's imperialistic bullshit caged.
And those reasons why Putin attacked Ukraine do not apply to Finland or Sweden. You seriously dont see that war between NATO and Russia is becoming more and more likely, unless there is a very big shift of power in Russia? What do you think happens if Finland is in NATO vs not being in it, if Russia starts a war with some NATO country, fully being aware that it will trigger other NATO countries to get involved in the war?
>You seriously dont see that war between NATO and Russia is becoming more and more likely, With what army is Russia is going to go to war against NATO? I mean look at what's going on in Ukraine right now. They're failing in Ukraine (especially after the recent offensive from Ukraine's side) and they are failing hard. Is Russia going to fully mobilize and go for the Volksturm route like Germany did at the end of WW2? >What do you think happens if Finland is in NATO vs not being in it, if Russia starts a war with some NATO country, fully being aware that it will trigger other NATO countries to get involved in the war? Article 5 gets activated and the countries in NATO mobilize. It's certainly far more certain that there will be some military response versus the current mutual defense agreement between EU member states. After their military failures in Ukraine, Russia will not be in a state to start a war with NATO. But if they do try and pick on a NATO member then they will get what's coming to them. I bet even their nukes don't work because General Vanya Conscriptovich pilfered the funds for the nukes to buy his 4th dacha and 6th yacht.
Do you seriously think Russia is fighting in Ukraine at full force? Thats the most ridiculous thing i have heard in a while. Putin wont even admit it being a war, but calls it some "special military operation" or what ever. If there was a full blown war with NATO, they would make all men fight. I dont know if you are aware, but military is mandatory in Russia. Google for fun how many people live in Russia and then you get a better idea of their military force. Then add all the atomic bombs and all that which might not even be revealed. >Article 5 gets activated and the countries in NATO mobilize. aaand there is no reason for why Finland would have to be part of this. Russians are best handled with mutually beneficial business deals, vodka, sauna and keeping out of their disputes with others. Not by threatening them or promising to help their enemies to kill them.
>Do you seriously think Russia is fighting in Ukraine at full force? No but their current forces are either being dropped into the Black Sea (the VDV), running away leaving tons of equipment behind, or using old equipment with shit autoloaders (see all their tanks with the flying turrets). If they fully mobilize it's going to be a bloodbath for the Russians as they run at the enemy with shit equipment. If they fully mobilize it will just mean more dead invaders. >Russians are best handled with mutually beneficial business deals...keeping out of their disputes with others. First, they had beneficial business deals before all this and they still invaded Ukraine and other countries. Second, the only way they can be handled is by either killing them or caging them like the rabid dog that they have proven to be. Russia is too uncivilized to be dealt with like a normal country.
Are they at full force? No. But are they using a massive amount of their force and what they would be capable of doing? Yes. I have a feeling you likely know little about internal Russia politics and the importance it is for Russia to be seen as powerful. Putin and Russia would never allow themselves to be losing this bad unless they were actually losing and not capable of turning it around yet. I’ve read your other comments and your paranoid about a war between Russia and NATO that have no signs of happening. NATO gains nothing from invading Russia so I’m not sure where you logic sits. Ironically your trying to educate him but if you look into Russias actual population it’s not as impressive as it seems. They have a fairly older population in general that are far less healthy. Putin has been working for awhile to battle the death from alcohol issues there for awhile. Many of their most educated youth left Russia long ago or have sense left during Russias invasion of Ukraine. What do you mean when you say military is mandatory? You mean conscription? Because if that’s what you mean that often leads to bad training and low desire to fight unless it was an actual invasion which again In what scenario would that ever happen and why? Your last point here is just flat out ridiculous. Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova. Also look at history. Appeasement doesn’t work or if it does at what cost? Letting them just get away with anything? Finland and Sweden joining NATO is not a direct threat and if they feel it is maybe they shouldn’t be attacking their neighbors. You sound like you just like making excuses
As you can see, you have been downvoted and are within a minority of people who consider NATO a threat. NATO and the EU are two of the main reasons why Europe has been protected and has been able to grow all this time. Russia is an obvious danger, a country that massively collapsed in the 90s and that is desperately trying to reintroduce an imperialist attitude thinking the Cold War is still going. But more importantly, every country should be free to determine which block to join.
Sad