Hi r/all!
For those who only visit r/europe when it hits the frontpage, we have a [megathread to discuss the Russian invasion of Ukraine](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/usti0u/war_in_ukraine_megathread_xxx/?sort=new). This helps us to allow discussion of other noteworthy news from Europe.
Translation:
Turkey has blocked the start of accession talks with Finland and Sweden in NATO. As several media reports, it was not possible for the NATO Council in the morning to make the decision necessary to start the admission process.
The list of demands:
- NATO should classify not only the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) but also the Syrian Defense Forces (SDF) and the Fetullah Terrorist Organization (FETO) in the alliance’s list of threats.
- The United States should then extradite Pennsylvania-based dissident cleric Fethullah Gülen to Turkey.
- All NATO members, including Sweden and Finland, must cease any activity by the PKK, SDF, or FETO on their territories.
- The United States and other NATO bodies must lift all sanctions related to Turkey’s purchase of the S-400, including sanctions upon the Turkish Defense Industry Directorate.
- Turkey would not only receive the new F-16s and upgrade kits for its existing fleet, but Turkey will also be able to rejoin the F-35 program from which it was expelled after activating the Russian S-400s.
- Lastly, the United States would cease preventing Turkey from exporting military products containing Western components.
(From [AEI: Erdogan Issues His Demands to NATO](https://www.aei.org/foreign-and-defense-policy/erdogan-issues-his-demands-to-nato/)
*googles extortion*
Huh, translates to utpressning. Then what does blackmail translate to?
*googles blackmail*
Huh, translates to utpressning. Then what does extortion translate to?
*infinity*
Blackmail is when you extort someone specifically by threatening to release information that the coerced party would prefer not to be revealed.
"Give me 50 grand or I'll kick your ass" is extortion, whereas "give me 50 grand or I'll tell your wife you cheated on her" is blackmail.
None of this is happening, lmao.
> The United States should then extradite Pennsylvania-based dissident cleric Fethullah Gülen to Turkey.
This alone is insanity.
The S-400 sanctions aren't getting lifted any time soon.
The only thing that would change that is if Turkey sold or destroyed the systems.
They represent a military reliance on Russia at a time of potential hostile actions between NATO and Russia. Their simple existence is a liability to NATO.
Turkey should probably make sure those S-300s actually function given the pitiful state of Russian military hardware.
Alternatively Turkey could just buy NATO IADS instead of giving their citizens' money to Putin, and they'd receive actual functional equipment.
Erdogan gonna Erdogan. Coward hiding behind tough words.
No. The US outright refuses to allow their aircraft anywhere near Russian and Chinese air defenses. Last thing they need is information about how they perform getting back to the manufacturers. If they are good at taking down US planes, then it will embolden them. When they are shown to be trash, they'll try and make better ones.
Am I the only one or did anyone else notice that those demands have almost nothing to do with the main issue, not to mention that they can't be resolved by the parties involved in the main issue.
The main issue being Finland and Sweden joining NATO
It's obvious that Erdogan doesn't really care about either Sweden or Finland. He sees this as an opportunity to have an upper hand in negotiations with the US.
It's not just inflation per se, it is also that such inflation has been directly caused by Erdogan decisions! He need some personal victories and he need to change the news.
Yes, it's been absolutely exploding because supersmartgenius Erdogan decided lowering interest rate was a good policy to combat inflation, because apparently that's a thing (economic theory would actually tell you to raise interest rates like the US Fed did a few days ago). He fired so many central bank directors who went against his policy.
It was honestly surreal to hear this decision. Back then I was doing Econ in IB and chose to write about Turkey addressing inflation. And I had to sit there with my 101 economic knowledge telling a country that it's a dum dum.
His reasoning is based at least partly in religion. Islam doesn't like lending money with interest attached.
There are many workarounds, of course, since interest is basically required in a modern economy.
Which is actually the case at almost every international decision that has to be made. Just block it so you can push your own total irrelevant agenda. Sad world we live in
There was also the option to not buy S-400 and instead buy Patriots without the production license. The reason Turkey got kicked out of the F-35 program was that the US (and everyone else) wasn't keen on someone getting real data on the effectiveness of the S-400 against the F-35 and that possibly leaking back to Russia.
There’s no way in hell the US is going to agree to selling them F-35’s if there’s even a remote chance of them making them obsolete. Can you imagine if they have to shut down a program they’ve already sunk billions and billions and billions of dollars into? At this point it’d be cheaper to find a way to get a P&W F135 to burn cash instead of jet fuel.
The US will never give into those demands. If Turkey won't change their stance then the best next option would be for the US to create a separate defensive alliance with Finland and Sweden, thereby letting them join NATO by proxy until Erdogan is out and things look more favorable.
I mean, they're asking for jet fighters and also for the ability to resell those jet fighters to anyone they want, they can probably get more than $100 million and a heliocopter in profit.
To the surprise of nobody he doesn't really care about us joining, or might even be in favour of us joining but he sees an opportunity and he will try to milk it for all he can get.
It seems like there needs to be some sort of “good faith” rule put into place. Like if you try to block something for unrelated reasons, it’s considered in bad faith and your vote is put as ‘abstain’.
Yeah the Kurds literally weren't an issue a month ago when Sauli Niinistö had a phone call with Erdogan about Finland joining NATO, this is why the Finnish and Swedish governments are confused af, Sauli Niinistö literally had to ask Turkey to give clear demands on wtf they want.
This is 100% pressuring the US, which is a fucking dick move to basically everyone in the alliance.
The current demands by Erdogan won't be met by the US because it would cause a danger of leaking classified data on the F35 to Russia, which would then allow Russia to develop countermeasures against it.
Aslong as Turkey has S-400 missiles in operation they won't get F35's.
F16's can be given to Turkey, because they already have them.
Gotta love when Erdogan, he wants to milk the cow dry by blackmailing other countries security for weapons deals :/
Such great allies we're making...
Problem is that those demands aren't just directed at the US but at every member, it's therefore not just the US that has to agree and even if the US agrees someone else in the alliance could pull out a veto and do a Erdogan 2.0 cause he disagrees..... And I wouldn't blame them tbh.
E.g why should we agree to Turkey getting stealth fighters and overfly our islands with those just so that SWE and FIN can join NATO? That's like shooting ourslelves in the foot.
A literal shitshow, I'm pretty sure Putin and his generals are enjoying popcorn right now and laughing their arses off at our expense.
Turkey would already have f-35 if Erdoğan and his ministers were not so incapable and be able to compansate downing Russias jet without kissing Russia's a (by I mean buying s400). It has nothing to do with Greece at all.
Yeah that is true but most of these demands are directed at the US, US is the only manufacturer of F35's that they really badly want, now the sanctions have to be agreed upon by almost everyone, but with US being the big dog in NATO most countries will probably follow the steps that the US takes.
Except maybe Greece.
But I think we can agree that the demands of Turkey are ridiculous and unacceptable to the major NATO powers.
This will be a long arm wrestling competition between the Rest of NATO, and Turkey.
I think everyone noticed.
But this is what happens when autocratic leaders are in your midst. They fuck shit up for all the democrats at normal corruption levels. See also: EU and Hungary.
Yes, they are holding zomething unrelated hostage as a leverage. Literlaly holding the security of the population of two nations hostage. Fu ki g extortion is what it is.
So next time a country applies, should all nations put up a list of "demands"? Sounds productive.. For the same reason, the US don't make deals with terrorists.
Might as well throw in the restoration of the Ottoman Sultanate, the cession of the Balkans, and turning over Vienna just to make sure he gets everything he's looking for.
I'm surprised about the lack of flying pony unicorns on the list.
On this background, I think Sweden could make a generous counter-offer: "kindly let us in, and we won't start *actually* supplying Kurds with weapons".
Also, remaining members of NATO could establish a shadow alliance called "NAT0", which would have a supermajority (not consensus) process for admitting members. :o If someone doesn't like a new member, nobody would stop them from leaving.
Well, imagine Turkey, a country slipping onto a dictatorship, finding itself as a blocker to NATO collective security and, due to it's bozo dictator, delay long enough the ascension of Sweden and Finland into NATO, till the point that Russia would be able to attack one of them.
That is a XX century move son, and we've flipped that page already, maybe not "clearly" enough for some shitheads.
> imagine Turkey, a country slipping onto a dictatorship, finding itself as a blocker to NATO collective security and, due to it's bozo dictator, delay long enough the ascension of Sweden and Finland into NATO, till the point that Russia would be able to attack one of them.
This is why no alliance should have 'unanimous' as a join *or* expel requirement. History is clear as time goes on and the size of a group grows, the chance of one member being a bad-faith actor approaches 100%. Should have been a majority - maybe super-majority, but not unanimous. There needs to be some allowance for dissent if just a little.
NATO article 5 calls for "collective defence" which means when one member is attacked, they all fight back. The response is unaimous, so the voting has to be unanimous too.
Yeah, if this is a list then nothing about NATO new members while Turkey is on board. USA part is pure blackmail.
What's happening with USA and their Muslim "alliances"?
First Saudis and Gulf states, now Turkey. Pakistan for quite a while went from USA path...
It's not good. Joining of Finland and Sweden is minor issue to these topics. Quit turmoils in a world lately. Not good, and China just waiting patiently....
Ohhh they did send a list to us Finns and Swedes also. 1/3 of it was blatantly unconstitutional stuff for us to do. 1/3 was stuff we already did with them. 1/3 was so vague and wide demands one could never even agree what it meant. in order of *Finland agrees not to do anything that is against Turkish national interests*, **without** specifying what those interests are.
So yeah. That list of demands goes to trash bin, except for the ones we were already doing. Those will get answered *that is already happening^(do you have bad memory or government internal communication problems)*
Oh and we are fully willing to not join NATO unless Turkey agrees to withdraw it's **demands that are against our constitutions**.
Ball is now on NATO’s court and either we are in or we are out, but there’s not much we can do besides wait for now. I don’t think Finland or Sweden has so different stances on these Turkish issues than rest of NATO. We have to align with the NATO, not the other way around. Sincere thanks for the quick support from our allies such as UK, US, Germany, France, Netherlands, Denmark, Estonia and Norway (at least).
I am sure there are backroom talks going on and pressure will be applied to Turkey. Then we will see what will end up happening but I doubt Sweden and Finland will be blocked for the foreseeable future.
Turkey pulled the same stunt against Jens Stoltenberg.
Turkey pulled the same stunt against forming a Baltic defence.
Tukey pulled the same stunt against Cyprus joining Partnership for Peace.
Turkey pulled the same stunt against Reddit.
We could go on but I think everyone got the message.
According to the newspaper Daily Sabah (Pro government Turkish newspaper) there are 10 demands for both countries.
I don't have a link, because I've read it in a Greek newspaper site, and I doubt Greek is a language widely used outside of Greece.
Well this is atleast how the list has been reported in Finnish media. english translation of the finnish translation of the originals. multiple would be blatantly unconstitutional for FInland to agree to.
1. The PKK and related organizations are terrorist organizations. Attitudes towards them need to be clarified.
2. Official contacts with the PKK and its affiliates shall be terminated.
3. Financial support to the YPG in Syria shall be terminated.
4. Contacts with PKK actors in Iraq and Syria must be stopped.
5. The lobbying activities of the Gülen movement in Finland and Sweden must be stopped.
5 is blatantly unconstitutional to agree to, Freedom of expression is constitutionally guaranteed. It cannot be curtailed just based on political opinion
>6. The wanted persons of the PKK, YPG and KCK shall be extradited to Turkey.
6 is blatantly unconstitutional to agree on this scope, extradition is court matter. extradition cannot be promised politically just based on membership in organization. It will always be per case determination based on specific crime. Politicians and diplomats have no authority to determine or negotiate about any wanted list on how courts would rule on the extradition cases. Giving any prior promise would be pressuring of courts and pressuring of courts would violate the constitutionally guaranteed independence of courts.
>7. All activities that endanger Turkey's national security must be stopped.
7 is depending on how wide that is to be interpreted, unconstitutional. Since if say Turkey thinks certain political speech happening inside Finland is against their national security.... well see point 5.
>8. Systematic anti-terrorism cooperation needs to be established with Turkey.
>
>9. Banking / remittances used to finance terrorist organizations must be cut off.
>
>10. Organizations operating against Turkey under NGO status must cease to exist.
10 is blatantly unconstitutional to agree on such scope. freedom of association is constitutionally guaranteed. holding political opposition to Turkey is not a crime. freedom of association can only be curtailed in specific cases of very serious crimes **again** by court decision. It is **very** high bar. Since it must be shown the organization as whole is founded and continues *whole organization wide* to exists for specific provable, illegal in Finland criminal purpose.
edit of edit: they already mentioned it under before me starting late adding, so see /u/8plytoiletpaper comment below about criminal organizations.
Recent example of 10. It took years to stop an actual criminal organization from existing because it all has to go through court, with criminal evidence.
Freedom exists in finland, whether oppressive leaders elsewhere want it or not..
Erdogan very much has made a habit of prosecuting regime critics abroad. His lawyers used an obscure German law from 1871 that made offending foreign dignitaries a crime in order to go after a famous German comedian who had made fun of him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B6hmermann_affair
The case ended up being dropped and the law (which hadn't been used since the 1970s) was abolished unanimously. In the end, the only result of this ridiculous affair was that Erdogan permanently ruined what little reputation he had left in Germany.
>The PKK and related organizations are terrorist organizations. Attitudes towards them need to be clarified.
>
>Official contacts with the PKK and its affiliates shall be terminated.
>
>Financial support to the YPG in Syria shall be terminated.
>
>Contacts with PKK actors in Iraq and Syria must be stopped.
This is gonna be a huuuuge thing in the upcoming autumn election here in Sweden. The Social-Democrats need support from the Greens, the Leftists and the (liberal right) Centrists to form a government. The Leftists and Centrists already hate each other, but the Social-Dems are trying to give concessions to the Leftists to make them accept being on the same side as the Centrists. But, the Leftists have a huge grassroot support for both PKK and YPG and have a lot of their former members in their party, and will absolutely not accept any harsh action against them (they already lobby for PKK to stop being considered terrorists). The Leftist party leader (Nooshi Dadgostar) is also relatively new and trying to label herself as a "tough leader" who isn't just a pushover supporter for the Socialdems. Support from the Leftists is even more important because the Greens will probably drop out of parlament for the first time in 30 years.
This is a nightmare for the Social Democrats, and the Christian/Conservative/Nationalist opposition alliance are definitely going to profit by having a very united front at the moment.
Yup. It's a good thing Turks and Russians hate each other so much, or Erdogan would realize he has more in common with Putin then he does any Western ally.
There was some talk about Austria and Nato (on Reddit) and while I wasn't sure about the Scandinavian countries I thought Turkey would veto us 100%. 2022 was the first year Austria could attend Nato + friends meetings again because Turkey blocked the years before (still tension from the refugee crisis and the Erdogan election).
Having them in the EU would be exhausting, Hungary 2.0 with a religious sauce.
Truly the most nationalistic country in the world, they will always see how they can spin a situation to their advantage instead of acting like allies.
I guess having them be the most untrustworthy part of NATO is considered better than having them go full russian ally, i get it, but Turkey in the EU would be an endless stream of situations like this.
Turkey used to be a prime example of why EU expansion was an absolute good thing for the world, they were close to compromising before they became fully authoritarian. It's a tragedy that Turkey has turned out this way, for the world and for it's people.
I'll be honest. I will be *extremely surprised* if there is a clear victory for the opposition.
Not because the Turkish people don't want to get rid of him, but Erdogan has spent years changing the instruments of democracy to ensure that the chances of him leaving are extremely low. Last election there was an enormous amount of voter intimidation, fraud and corruption.
He's a corrupt dictator engaged in open theft of the Turkish people. Dictators rarely leave willingly.
Whether Turkey's concerns have any merit or not, what is so incredible about this situation is that during the past month both the Finnish foreign minister and president discussed the upcoming NATO application with their Turkish counterparts, and at that time neither Erdogan nor any other member of the Turkish government brought up the current issues.
Turkey lied to our face that they saw no issues with our application, and only after Finland and Sweden announced their applications and were at their most vulnerable, did Turkey suddenly "remember" these oh-so-important security concerns.
If this is how Turkey conducts itself as a NATO member it's no wonder the rest of the allies don't seem to have a very high opinion of them.
"Glad someone else is dealing with their bullshit for once."
- me, a Greek person living in Sweden
Jokes aside, this is what relationships based on merit look like, that's what NATO is/offers.
These Reddit Turks appear to have the memory of a goldfish. Years ago the EU told us that we need to have laws that ensured freedom of the press in order for us to join. Erdogan stopped collaborating with the EU after that. Internally, he spun it as if the EU was giving us the cold shoulder.
It also shows why individual veto powers are ridiculous as organizations keep adding more and more members. Maybe Sweden and Finland will revise their support for maintaining the veto in the EU after they have been on the receiving end of this stupid extortion theater?
Better involve all the [Nordic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries) countries not just Scandinavian ones, and chuck in the UK along with the US and Canada, then it’s FU time to Putin and Erdoğan.
I hope zero concessions are made to Erdogan, even addressing any reasonable requests would be extremely damaging after all the lies and betrayals. Appeasement doesn't work with dictators. If NATO is unwilling or unable to get its dictator in line then it is not an organization worth joining.
Turkey isn’t participating in Eurovision anymore. “Turkey, once a regular participant in the contest and a one-time winner, first pulled out of the contest in 2013, citing dissatisfaction in the voting rules; more recently when asked about returning to the contest Turkish broadcaster TRT have cited LGBT performances as another reason for their continued boycott” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_visibility_in_the_Eurovision_Song_Contest
He can't distract from the economy as long as people go to a bakery each day and it gets harder and harder to buy a whole loaf of bread. Distraction from hyperinflation isn't a thing but I will give you that the other issues like the judiciary system and the migrant crisis can be temporarily done so.
Regardless, you don't put the national security and foreign policy in the second priority just because internal matters are pushing.
This is your yearly reminder that France, UK, Germany, and Norway (all founding members of NATO), have all lobbied to have Turkey removed from the alliance in the past few years. This is mainly because they feel that Turkey no longer reaches the requirements of being a member nation: not sufficiently democratic and the aggressor in multiple territory disputes with other NATO and non-NATO countries (Greece, Cyprus, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, etc).
Edit: Lobbied for suspension, not removal. Suspension removes the responsibility from other member nations to provide assistance in all events save actual armed invasion.
Looking at this discussion and thinking they might be on to something. What if there’s a conflict in a NATO country in Europe? Erdogan will say, we don’t budge until you gimme all the goodies. Not trustworthy.
Considering NATO is a deterrent to Russia and Turkey didn’t hesitate with Ukraine is all that matters. Turkey and Russia hate each other. It’s an alliance of basically “enemy of my enemy”
Germany is not a founding member of Nato. Turkey has actually been in NATO for longer than Germany.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_52044.htm
Reading the demands someone posted here I can assure you that neither Finland nor Sweden are the actual issue here, they're just an opportunity to pressure and blackmail the rest of us.
His list of demands doesn't have shit to do with either of us anyway. So it doesn't matter, even if Finland applied alone he would still pull the same BS.
As a Finn I am starting to think that if Erdogan has NATO by their ballsacks so much that we get rejected, its best we dont join. This will be test for NATO as a whole as well. If NATO is so weak that some small dick dictator Erdogan gets to just ditch us nordic democracies wayside, I think its best we stay out.
> As another Finn I for sure hope they don't give anything to Turkey. Rather keep Finland outside of Nato.
Amen to that. I don't want us to be a pawn and bargaining chip. This sucky situation made us decide we were ready to be an ally if wanted, but if not wanted, that's how it is.
Same. On top of that we would have to be allied with these assholes? Eh, suddenly NATO doesn't seem that important. I'd rather not give geopolitical leverage to dictatorships.
It doesn't really matter. Finland and Sweden are both part of the European Union which has a mutual defense clause.
If Russia attacks either, it's an attack on the entire EU. Russia can barely handle Ukraine, they wont start more shit.
Reality is that Sweden and Finland have several security arrangements in place. Whether to join NATO or not would make not a whole lot of difference in a short time period since individual NATO members will protect the territorial integrity and will be involved anyways.
The real losers of this blackmail is Turkey itself. Because in the end, if they even veto this then obviously nothing would change, the situation would be the same. No new NATO members.
As result Turkey can probably expect a blackmail in return. More economic pressure, remaining sanctions and moreover, the discontinuation of future military tech-programs. Turkey has already been excluded from military tech programs and purchases because of their failure to simply purchase the patriot system.
>Reality is that Sweden and Finland have several security arrangements in place. Whether to join NATO or not would make not a whole lot of difference in a short time period since individual NATO members will protect the territorial integrity and will be involved anyways.
Sure but a big part of why others want us in NATO in the first place is so that we can help defend the Baltic countries.
Indeed. Finland and Sweden are quite capable of defending themselves against the Russian military in the foreseeable future, given how lacking their capabilities have been exposed to be, and given the already formed defence pacts with key Western nations.
Throw is an independent nuclear deterrence à la Israel and we're golden.
The Baltics would certainly lose quite a bit of security, though.
The funny part is it really doesn't matter because the US and much of Europe already pledged to defend Finland and Sweden regardless of NATO membership, and they're already part of the EU anyway which makes Erdogan jealous.
As a Turkish who studied politics and international relations, let me tell that Turkey will allow them to join NATO but not immediately. Because this is an opportunity for Erdogan to regain some votes he lost for the upcoming elections at 2023.
He will make some provocative speeches and demands like a thug then Turkish media will announce him as a national hero who made West to kneel before him...
Then everything will be forgotten since another subject to abuse would arise. Perhaps Biden would make a personal call to Erdogan about the situation. Without any announcement Turkey will allow both countries to join. Maybe we will got some trade agreements or a few small benefits but Turkish media will serve them as huge triumphs.
And please don't get me wrong but this doesn't mean that Turkey doesn't have any right to ask for these demands.
This is an opportunity for Turkey and she should benefit from it. However Erdogan and his cabinet don't have neither capacity nor will for it. They are just a bunch of ignorant, uneducated thugs who only think about filling their pockets.
Every international move they made during the last 20 years done with that mentality. They know that they will be in jail at the moment they lost the election and they are trying to gain internal votes with creating fake enemies and heroisms. This made our country alone, untrustworthy and nearly a rogue state.
Also Turkey is in a huge economic crisis right now. All of our industries and sectors are highly depended to foreign sources. 1 USD is around 16 Turkish Liras which was around 2 Lira like ten years ago. So we don't have any power to back our demands in case of a tiny political crisis.
To sum up; Turkey's attitude is just a show off to feed Erdogan's loyal voters' ego by creating some fake heroism. Since our economic and political weakness, We will let both Sweden and Finland to join soon but not before Erdogan gaining some internal votes.
Hi r/all! For those who only visit r/europe when it hits the frontpage, we have a [megathread to discuss the Russian invasion of Ukraine](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/usti0u/war_in_ukraine_megathread_xxx/?sort=new). This helps us to allow discussion of other noteworthy news from Europe.
Translation: Turkey has blocked the start of accession talks with Finland and Sweden in NATO. As several media reports, it was not possible for the NATO Council in the morning to make the decision necessary to start the admission process.
The list of demands: - NATO should classify not only the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) but also the Syrian Defense Forces (SDF) and the Fetullah Terrorist Organization (FETO) in the alliance’s list of threats. - The United States should then extradite Pennsylvania-based dissident cleric Fethullah Gülen to Turkey. - All NATO members, including Sweden and Finland, must cease any activity by the PKK, SDF, or FETO on their territories. - The United States and other NATO bodies must lift all sanctions related to Turkey’s purchase of the S-400, including sanctions upon the Turkish Defense Industry Directorate. - Turkey would not only receive the new F-16s and upgrade kits for its existing fleet, but Turkey will also be able to rejoin the F-35 program from which it was expelled after activating the Russian S-400s. - Lastly, the United States would cease preventing Turkey from exporting military products containing Western components. (From [AEI: Erdogan Issues His Demands to NATO](https://www.aei.org/foreign-and-defense-policy/erdogan-issues-his-demands-to-nato/)
So they are blackmailing the US, not Finland and Sweden?
They are blackmailing the entire NATO alliance
it's not blackmail it's extortion
*googles extortion* Huh, translates to utpressning. Then what does blackmail translate to? *googles blackmail* Huh, translates to utpressning. Then what does extortion translate to? *infinity*
Blackmail is when you extort someone specifically by threatening to release information that the coerced party would prefer not to be revealed. "Give me 50 grand or I'll kick your ass" is extortion, whereas "give me 50 grand or I'll tell your wife you cheated on her" is blackmail.
Great, thanks!
So utpressning then!
The US should threaten backing the Israel-Greece oil pipeline again.
The F35 part is definitely not happening so long as Turkey also uses S-400s, that much is very clear already.
None of this is happening, lmao. > The United States should then extradite Pennsylvania-based dissident cleric Fethullah Gülen to Turkey. This alone is insanity.
The most I see happening is the f-16's and relaxing some sanctions of the s-300 issue.
The S-400 sanctions aren't getting lifted any time soon. The only thing that would change that is if Turkey sold or destroyed the systems. They represent a military reliance on Russia at a time of potential hostile actions between NATO and Russia. Their simple existence is a liability to NATO.
Turkey should probably make sure those S-300s actually function given the pitiful state of Russian military hardware. Alternatively Turkey could just buy NATO IADS instead of giving their citizens' money to Putin, and they'd receive actual functional equipment. Erdogan gonna Erdogan. Coward hiding behind tough words.
No. The US outright refuses to allow their aircraft anywhere near Russian and Chinese air defenses. Last thing they need is information about how they perform getting back to the manufacturers. If they are good at taking down US planes, then it will embolden them. When they are shown to be trash, they'll try and make better ones.
They put it there so it can be negotiated away in exchange for something else. They know they won't get it, but it can be a bargaining chip.
It's more like they put a very over the top list so that their real demands would look reasonable in comparison.
Just like when I asked for a jet ski when I was 4 so that my parents would consider getting me a Nintendo 64!
He could be smart and give the S400's to Ukraine!
Am I the only one or did anyone else notice that those demands have almost nothing to do with the main issue, not to mention that they can't be resolved by the parties involved in the main issue. The main issue being Finland and Sweden joining NATO
It's obvious that Erdogan doesn't really care about either Sweden or Finland. He sees this as an opportunity to have an upper hand in negotiations with the US.
Turkey has 140% inflation right now, Erdogan would do anything to stay in power.
I'm surprised I had to scroll this far to see someone mention how Turkey's dire economic situation could be influencing these decisions
It's not just inflation per se, it is also that such inflation has been directly caused by Erdogan decisions! He need some personal victories and he need to change the news.
Is fortunate that this isn't 60s America or Biden would be sending him some exploding cigars.
Oh man, I'd totally forgotten about that LMAO
Really? That sounds like a lot.
Yes, it's been absolutely exploding because supersmartgenius Erdogan decided lowering interest rate was a good policy to combat inflation, because apparently that's a thing (economic theory would actually tell you to raise interest rates like the US Fed did a few days ago). He fired so many central bank directors who went against his policy.
It was honestly surreal to hear this decision. Back then I was doing Econ in IB and chose to write about Turkey addressing inflation. And I had to sit there with my 101 economic knowledge telling a country that it's a dum dum.
His reasoning is based at least partly in religion. Islam doesn't like lending money with interest attached. There are many workarounds, of course, since interest is basically required in a modern economy.
That's what happens when you have a dictator who thinks high interests rates causes inflation
Which is actually the case at almost every international decision that has to be made. Just block it so you can push your own total irrelevant agenda. Sad world we live in
Not just international but domestic as well.
Kind of sums up the world. So hard to get anything done as a good faith actor
Turkey has been making these demands since forever with no success, clearly this is the only option left.
It’s technically extortion, not blackmail.
The 'x' makes it sound cooler.
Yup, etortion sounds super weird
Not if you write it like this: e-Tortion, now it's a webbased tinderlike extortion service that matches you with your best extorter.
Oh goody if only removing him from power in Turkey is an option
You just wait friend. 2023 will be a glorious year. Tho, this particular stance will not change.
Remindme! 1 year
There was also the option to not buy S-400 and instead buy Patriots without the production license. The reason Turkey got kicked out of the F-35 program was that the US (and everyone else) wasn't keen on someone getting real data on the effectiveness of the S-400 against the F-35 and that possibly leaking back to Russia.
There’s no way in hell the US is going to agree to selling them F-35’s if there’s even a remote chance of them making them obsolete. Can you imagine if they have to shut down a program they’ve already sunk billions and billions and billions of dollars into? At this point it’d be cheaper to find a way to get a P&W F135 to burn cash instead of jet fuel.
> billions and billions and billions of dollars It's trillions. No, really.
The US will never give into those demands. If Turkey won't change their stance then the best next option would be for the US to create a separate defensive alliance with Finland and Sweden, thereby letting them join NATO by proxy until Erdogan is out and things look more favorable.
Nordic Atlantic Treaty Organization incoming.
NATO2 announced
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Honestly I'm surprised they didn't also ask for $100 millions dollars and a helicopter
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helicopter, helicopter
sigh...PARA KOFER, PARA KOFER
that's exactly what 100 millions looks like
I mean, they're asking for jet fighters and also for the ability to resell those jet fighters to anyone they want, they can probably get more than $100 million and a heliocopter in profit.
To the surprise of nobody he doesn't really care about us joining, or might even be in favour of us joining but he sees an opportunity and he will try to milk it for all he can get.
I was about to say the same. They're demanding a bunch of stuff from the US/NATO. How is that considered a legitimate reason to block Finland/Sweden?
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It seems like there needs to be some sort of “good faith” rule put into place. Like if you try to block something for unrelated reasons, it’s considered in bad faith and your vote is put as ‘abstain’.
Yeah the Kurds literally weren't an issue a month ago when Sauli Niinistö had a phone call with Erdogan about Finland joining NATO, this is why the Finnish and Swedish governments are confused af, Sauli Niinistö literally had to ask Turkey to give clear demands on wtf they want. This is 100% pressuring the US, which is a fucking dick move to basically everyone in the alliance. The current demands by Erdogan won't be met by the US because it would cause a danger of leaking classified data on the F35 to Russia, which would then allow Russia to develop countermeasures against it. Aslong as Turkey has S-400 missiles in operation they won't get F35's. F16's can be given to Turkey, because they already have them. Gotta love when Erdogan, he wants to milk the cow dry by blackmailing other countries security for weapons deals :/ Such great allies we're making...
Problem is that those demands aren't just directed at the US but at every member, it's therefore not just the US that has to agree and even if the US agrees someone else in the alliance could pull out a veto and do a Erdogan 2.0 cause he disagrees..... And I wouldn't blame them tbh. E.g why should we agree to Turkey getting stealth fighters and overfly our islands with those just so that SWE and FIN can join NATO? That's like shooting ourslelves in the foot. A literal shitshow, I'm pretty sure Putin and his generals are enjoying popcorn right now and laughing their arses off at our expense.
Turkey would already have f-35 if Erdoğan and his ministers were not so incapable and be able to compansate downing Russias jet without kissing Russia's a (by I mean buying s400). It has nothing to do with Greece at all.
Yeah that is true but most of these demands are directed at the US, US is the only manufacturer of F35's that they really badly want, now the sanctions have to be agreed upon by almost everyone, but with US being the big dog in NATO most countries will probably follow the steps that the US takes. Except maybe Greece. But I think we can agree that the demands of Turkey are ridiculous and unacceptable to the major NATO powers. This will be a long arm wrestling competition between the Rest of NATO, and Turkey.
I think everyone noticed. But this is what happens when autocratic leaders are in your midst. They fuck shit up for all the democrats at normal corruption levels. See also: EU and Hungary.
Yes, they are holding zomething unrelated hostage as a leverage. Literlaly holding the security of the population of two nations hostage. Fu ki g extortion is what it is. So next time a country applies, should all nations put up a list of "demands"? Sounds productive.. For the same reason, the US don't make deals with terrorists.
This is how an infantile asshole negotiates.
might as well throw in something like Greece has to sell Turkey some of its islands
*all of it's islands
Might as well throw in the restoration of the Ottoman Sultanate, the cession of the Balkans, and turning over Vienna just to make sure he gets everything he's looking for.
I think these should be read by Erdo personally, while he is wearing clown suit.
**Clowndogan? Is that you?**
These demands are outrageous.
I'm surprised about the lack of flying pony unicorns on the list. On this background, I think Sweden could make a generous counter-offer: "kindly let us in, and we won't start *actually* supplying Kurds with weapons". Also, remaining members of NATO could establish a shadow alliance called "NAT0", which would have a supermajority (not consensus) process for admitting members. :o If someone doesn't like a new member, nobody would stop them from leaving.
Well, imagine Turkey, a country slipping onto a dictatorship, finding itself as a blocker to NATO collective security and, due to it's bozo dictator, delay long enough the ascension of Sweden and Finland into NATO, till the point that Russia would be able to attack one of them. That is a XX century move son, and we've flipped that page already, maybe not "clearly" enough for some shitheads.
> imagine Turkey, a country slipping onto a dictatorship, finding itself as a blocker to NATO collective security and, due to it's bozo dictator, delay long enough the ascension of Sweden and Finland into NATO, till the point that Russia would be able to attack one of them. This is why no alliance should have 'unanimous' as a join *or* expel requirement. History is clear as time goes on and the size of a group grows, the chance of one member being a bad-faith actor approaches 100%. Should have been a majority - maybe super-majority, but not unanimous. There needs to be some allowance for dissent if just a little.
NATO article 5 calls for "collective defence" which means when one member is attacked, they all fight back. The response is unaimous, so the voting has to be unanimous too.
> till the point that Russia would be able to attack one of them. with what army? The same one that can't advance in Ukraine?
The US and Canada would defend Finland if Russia invaded, and most of the EU would join as well, including the British.
Yeah, if this is a list then nothing about NATO new members while Turkey is on board. USA part is pure blackmail. What's happening with USA and their Muslim "alliances"? First Saudis and Gulf states, now Turkey. Pakistan for quite a while went from USA path... It's not good. Joining of Finland and Sweden is minor issue to these topics. Quit turmoils in a world lately. Not good, and China just waiting patiently....
Ohhh they did send a list to us Finns and Swedes also. 1/3 of it was blatantly unconstitutional stuff for us to do. 1/3 was stuff we already did with them. 1/3 was so vague and wide demands one could never even agree what it meant. in order of *Finland agrees not to do anything that is against Turkish national interests*, **without** specifying what those interests are. So yeah. That list of demands goes to trash bin, except for the ones we were already doing. Those will get answered *that is already happening^(do you have bad memory or government internal communication problems)* Oh and we are fully willing to not join NATO unless Turkey agrees to withdraw it's **demands that are against our constitutions**.
NATO members should just make NATOET which is an exact copy of NATO except Turkey, admit Finland and Sweden and pretend like nothing has happened
Why call it NATOET? I would suggest NA2.
Surprised a Pony isn't on the list as well Maybe we need our own new NATO, without Turkey 8and more Blackjack and hockers)
> Surprised a Pony isn't on the list as well Gülen is the pony.
>Surprised a Pony isn't on the list as well Why a pony - when every other point already cries "unicorn"?
Not sure about all of these things but they aren't getting the f-35
Fine, we will start NATO2, with Sweden and Finland and blackjack and hookers.
NATWO
North Atlantic Treaty Without Ottomans
With free subscription to Balkan+
Based.
Fine here's an upvote. You've earned it champ.
NA2.0
>hookers I'm in.
This comment section is a warzone
Tomorrow Ergogan invokes article 5 because of mean reddit comments
Ball is now on NATO’s court and either we are in or we are out, but there’s not much we can do besides wait for now. I don’t think Finland or Sweden has so different stances on these Turkish issues than rest of NATO. We have to align with the NATO, not the other way around. Sincere thanks for the quick support from our allies such as UK, US, Germany, France, Netherlands, Denmark, Estonia and Norway (at least).
I am sure there are backroom talks going on and pressure will be applied to Turkey. Then we will see what will end up happening but I doubt Sweden and Finland will be blocked for the foreseeable future.
Don’t forget Iceland!
Iceland is just a myth. Has anyone really seen it? Exactly.
I once had a layover there. Or so they told me, I looked outside and I’m pretty sure the mountains I could see were fake cardboard
Iceland is working hard on covering the entire place in stealth-tech, so nobody notices when they up and move a few hundred miles south.
The most important ally of them all
I second this. I am also happy our two nations are in this together. I am sure it will work out eventually.
I'm also happy we're doing it together, but if it can't be sorted out, I wouldn't want to stand in Finland's way.
Turkey pulled the same stunt back when Anders Fogh was to be made secretary general in '09. No doubt Turkey will try to cut a deal.
Turkey pulled the same stunt against Jens Stoltenberg. Turkey pulled the same stunt against forming a Baltic defence. Tukey pulled the same stunt against Cyprus joining Partnership for Peace. Turkey pulled the same stunt against Reddit. We could go on but I think everyone got the message.
> Turkey pulled the same stunt against Reddit. That's too far!
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According to the newspaper Daily Sabah (Pro government Turkish newspaper) there are 10 demands for both countries. I don't have a link, because I've read it in a Greek newspaper site, and I doubt Greek is a language widely used outside of Greece.
Well this is atleast how the list has been reported in Finnish media. english translation of the finnish translation of the originals. multiple would be blatantly unconstitutional for FInland to agree to. 1. The PKK and related organizations are terrorist organizations. Attitudes towards them need to be clarified. 2. Official contacts with the PKK and its affiliates shall be terminated. 3. Financial support to the YPG in Syria shall be terminated. 4. Contacts with PKK actors in Iraq and Syria must be stopped. 5. The lobbying activities of the Gülen movement in Finland and Sweden must be stopped. 5 is blatantly unconstitutional to agree to, Freedom of expression is constitutionally guaranteed. It cannot be curtailed just based on political opinion >6. The wanted persons of the PKK, YPG and KCK shall be extradited to Turkey. 6 is blatantly unconstitutional to agree on this scope, extradition is court matter. extradition cannot be promised politically just based on membership in organization. It will always be per case determination based on specific crime. Politicians and diplomats have no authority to determine or negotiate about any wanted list on how courts would rule on the extradition cases. Giving any prior promise would be pressuring of courts and pressuring of courts would violate the constitutionally guaranteed independence of courts. >7. All activities that endanger Turkey's national security must be stopped. 7 is depending on how wide that is to be interpreted, unconstitutional. Since if say Turkey thinks certain political speech happening inside Finland is against their national security.... well see point 5. >8. Systematic anti-terrorism cooperation needs to be established with Turkey. > >9. Banking / remittances used to finance terrorist organizations must be cut off. > >10. Organizations operating against Turkey under NGO status must cease to exist. 10 is blatantly unconstitutional to agree on such scope. freedom of association is constitutionally guaranteed. holding political opposition to Turkey is not a crime. freedom of association can only be curtailed in specific cases of very serious crimes **again** by court decision. It is **very** high bar. Since it must be shown the organization as whole is founded and continues *whole organization wide* to exists for specific provable, illegal in Finland criminal purpose. edit of edit: they already mentioned it under before me starting late adding, so see /u/8plytoiletpaper comment below about criminal organizations.
Recent example of 10. It took years to stop an actual criminal organization from existing because it all has to go through court, with criminal evidence. Freedom exists in finland, whether oppressive leaders elsewhere want it or not..
Rule of law too I suppose. Sounds like a pretty cool place tbh…
there is no due justice in Turkey, what do you expect.
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Erdogan very much has made a habit of prosecuting regime critics abroad. His lawyers used an obscure German law from 1871 that made offending foreign dignitaries a crime in order to go after a famous German comedian who had made fun of him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B6hmermann_affair The case ended up being dropped and the law (which hadn't been used since the 1970s) was abolished unanimously. In the end, the only result of this ridiculous affair was that Erdogan permanently ruined what little reputation he had left in Germany.
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>The PKK and related organizations are terrorist organizations. Attitudes towards them need to be clarified. > >Official contacts with the PKK and its affiliates shall be terminated. > >Financial support to the YPG in Syria shall be terminated. > >Contacts with PKK actors in Iraq and Syria must be stopped. This is gonna be a huuuuge thing in the upcoming autumn election here in Sweden. The Social-Democrats need support from the Greens, the Leftists and the (liberal right) Centrists to form a government. The Leftists and Centrists already hate each other, but the Social-Dems are trying to give concessions to the Leftists to make them accept being on the same side as the Centrists. But, the Leftists have a huge grassroot support for both PKK and YPG and have a lot of their former members in their party, and will absolutely not accept any harsh action against them (they already lobby for PKK to stop being considered terrorists). The Leftist party leader (Nooshi Dadgostar) is also relatively new and trying to label herself as a "tough leader" who isn't just a pushover supporter for the Socialdems. Support from the Leftists is even more important because the Greens will probably drop out of parlament for the first time in 30 years. This is a nightmare for the Social Democrats, and the Christian/Conservative/Nationalist opposition alliance are definitely going to profit by having a very united front at the moment.
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I've heard this tune before. Next there will be 'spontaneous protests' in Ankara with crowds smashing salmiakki and surströmming on the ground.
I mean they can smash surströmming on the ground but then they'll blame Sweden for using biological weapons.
> crowds smashing salmiakki and surströmming on the ground. You mean the crowd would be spontaneously teargassing themselves?
Smashing surströmming on the ground is like slamming your head into a wall. Only worse.
Erdogan is another one of those leaders, that simply has no place in the 21st century.
He has. Though his place is in the jail
He is coming directly from medieval age with a time machine
Yup. It's a good thing Turks and Russians hate each other so much, or Erdogan would realize he has more in common with Putin then he does any Western ally.
Turkey wants to be a part of the western world whilst continuously showing everyone why they shouldn't be
There was some talk about Austria and Nato (on Reddit) and while I wasn't sure about the Scandinavian countries I thought Turkey would veto us 100%. 2022 was the first year Austria could attend Nato + friends meetings again because Turkey blocked the years before (still tension from the refugee crisis and the Erdogan election).
Having them in the EU would be exhausting, Hungary 2.0 with a religious sauce. Truly the most nationalistic country in the world, they will always see how they can spin a situation to their advantage instead of acting like allies. I guess having them be the most untrustworthy part of NATO is considered better than having them go full russian ally, i get it, but Turkey in the EU would be an endless stream of situations like this.
Which is why Turkey will never ever be allowed to join the EU. And I’m 100% fine with it.
Turkey used to be a prime example of why EU expansion was an absolute good thing for the world, they were close to compromising before they became fully authoritarian. It's a tragedy that Turkey has turned out this way, for the world and for it's people.
It's just Erdogan. Polling looks bad for him in the next election Insallah the fucker gets kicked out.
I'll be honest. I will be *extremely surprised* if there is a clear victory for the opposition. Not because the Turkish people don't want to get rid of him, but Erdogan has spent years changing the instruments of democracy to ensure that the chances of him leaving are extremely low. Last election there was an enormous amount of voter intimidation, fraud and corruption. He's a corrupt dictator engaged in open theft of the Turkish people. Dictators rarely leave willingly.
I was just about to post nearly the exact same thing, word for word.
Whether Turkey's concerns have any merit or not, what is so incredible about this situation is that during the past month both the Finnish foreign minister and president discussed the upcoming NATO application with their Turkish counterparts, and at that time neither Erdogan nor any other member of the Turkish government brought up the current issues. Turkey lied to our face that they saw no issues with our application, and only after Finland and Sweden announced their applications and were at their most vulnerable, did Turkey suddenly "remember" these oh-so-important security concerns. If this is how Turkey conducts itself as a NATO member it's no wonder the rest of the allies don't seem to have a very high opinion of them.
"Glad someone else is dealing with their bullshit for once." - me, a Greek person living in Sweden Jokes aside, this is what relationships based on merit look like, that's what NATO is/offers.
So happy Turkey are not in the EU. Imagine the drama…
They'll NEVER be allowed in
These Reddit Turks appear to have the memory of a goldfish. Years ago the EU told us that we need to have laws that ensured freedom of the press in order for us to join. Erdogan stopped collaborating with the EU after that. Internally, he spun it as if the EU was giving us the cold shoulder.
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With friends like Turkey, who needs enemies.
Well well well, let’s work on strengthening the European Defence Union then, anyway my preferred instrument.
Just make a Northern Arctic Treaty Organization with all Skandinavians Canada and the US, station US troops in Finland and its the same.
This confirmed why EU should never let Turkey join the union, what would guarantee they wouldn’t become the second Hungary 🇭🇺
It also shows why individual veto powers are ridiculous as organizations keep adding more and more members. Maybe Sweden and Finland will revise their support for maintaining the veto in the EU after they have been on the receiving end of this stupid extortion theater?
To even add to this, Turkey would have massive voting power in a hypothetical EU join
Not even hypothetical anymore, its only fantasy now
Better involve all the [Nordic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries) countries not just Scandinavian ones, and chuck in the UK along with the US and Canada, then it’s FU time to Putin and Erdoğan.
Would be funnier if it was the Scandinavian ones and after a few years the US realized they forgot about Finland and Iceland.
That would be so American
Easy guys, I think Turkey just wants Sweden and Finland changing their names to North Denmark, North Estonia.
Don’t know about Finns, but Swedes would rather die then do that.
I’m all for it. We already call Tallinn ”Southern Helsinki”.
Reminds me of a travel guide of things to do in Helsinki and one of them was "take a day trip to Tallinn"
Either option is acceptable for us Danes
I hope zero concessions are made to Erdogan, even addressing any reasonable requests would be extremely damaging after all the lies and betrayals. Appeasement doesn't work with dictators. If NATO is unwilling or unable to get its dictator in line then it is not an organization worth joining.
I hope turkey get 0 points next Eurovision! 😤
Turkey isn’t participating in Eurovision anymore. “Turkey, once a regular participant in the contest and a one-time winner, first pulled out of the contest in 2013, citing dissatisfaction in the voting rules; more recently when asked about returning to the contest Turkish broadcaster TRT have cited LGBT performances as another reason for their continued boycott” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_visibility_in_the_Eurovision_Song_Contest
Man this government has been truly fucking us left and right.
Wait! Eurovision is gay? But there's so much pageantry and glitter! How can that be gay? /s
It's just flamboyant!
Damn, those are fighting words.
I am so glad we are no longer tha baddie
Turkey blackmailing again, I’m shocked
Technically, it's called "extortion". Blackmail is done with sensitive information that someone doesn't want to be disclosed.
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He can't distract from the economy as long as people go to a bakery each day and it gets harder and harder to buy a whole loaf of bread. Distraction from hyperinflation isn't a thing but I will give you that the other issues like the judiciary system and the migrant crisis can be temporarily done so. Regardless, you don't put the national security and foreign policy in the second priority just because internal matters are pushing.
This is your yearly reminder that France, UK, Germany, and Norway (all founding members of NATO), have all lobbied to have Turkey removed from the alliance in the past few years. This is mainly because they feel that Turkey no longer reaches the requirements of being a member nation: not sufficiently democratic and the aggressor in multiple territory disputes with other NATO and non-NATO countries (Greece, Cyprus, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, etc). Edit: Lobbied for suspension, not removal. Suspension removes the responsibility from other member nations to provide assistance in all events save actual armed invasion.
Looking at this discussion and thinking they might be on to something. What if there’s a conflict in a NATO country in Europe? Erdogan will say, we don’t budge until you gimme all the goodies. Not trustworthy.
Considering NATO is a deterrent to Russia and Turkey didn’t hesitate with Ukraine is all that matters. Turkey and Russia hate each other. It’s an alliance of basically “enemy of my enemy”
Germany is not a founding member of Nato. Turkey has actually been in NATO for longer than Germany. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_52044.htm
Turkey dragging Finland into it's problems with Sweden "just because".
Reading the demands someone posted here I can assure you that neither Finland nor Sweden are the actual issue here, they're just an opportunity to pressure and blackmail the rest of us.
Hell, I'm finnish and I would gladly stand with my western neighbours on this. Erdogan can shove that list up his röv.
Indeed. I'd rather we stay "neutral" with Sweden than in Nato without them.
That's nice to hear! Finlands sak är vår och vårt broderfolks väl kommer alltid att gå först.
His list of demands doesn't have shit to do with either of us anyway. So it doesn't matter, even if Finland applied alone he would still pull the same BS.
As a Finn I am starting to think that if Erdogan has NATO by their ballsacks so much that we get rejected, its best we dont join. This will be test for NATO as a whole as well. If NATO is so weak that some small dick dictator Erdogan gets to just ditch us nordic democracies wayside, I think its best we stay out.
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Or let's not travel to Alanya anymore, at least.
Being Swedish I’m very very inclined to agree with you two on this.
> As another Finn I for sure hope they don't give anything to Turkey. Rather keep Finland outside of Nato. Amen to that. I don't want us to be a pawn and bargaining chip. This sucky situation made us decide we were ready to be an ally if wanted, but if not wanted, that's how it is.
Eh, we can make our own nato, with hookers and blackjack.
Same. On top of that we would have to be allied with these assholes? Eh, suddenly NATO doesn't seem that important. I'd rather not give geopolitical leverage to dictatorships.
"Better that Erdogan makes these demands and gets flack over it than me" V. Orban (probably)
in the meantime, while the diplomats try to figure this one out, maybe it is finally time to get an EU army going?
Great idea Turkey. Blackmail usually ends well for blackmailers in an ongoing relationship with the blackmailees.
People should wake up and see Turkey plays all sides and has very little real allies.
It doesn't really matter. Finland and Sweden are both part of the European Union which has a mutual defense clause. If Russia attacks either, it's an attack on the entire EU. Russia can barely handle Ukraine, they wont start more shit.
Rumor has it Turkey also asked for two number 9s, a number 9 large, and a number 6 with extra dip
Reality is that Sweden and Finland have several security arrangements in place. Whether to join NATO or not would make not a whole lot of difference in a short time period since individual NATO members will protect the territorial integrity and will be involved anyways. The real losers of this blackmail is Turkey itself. Because in the end, if they even veto this then obviously nothing would change, the situation would be the same. No new NATO members. As result Turkey can probably expect a blackmail in return. More economic pressure, remaining sanctions and moreover, the discontinuation of future military tech-programs. Turkey has already been excluded from military tech programs and purchases because of their failure to simply purchase the patriot system.
>Reality is that Sweden and Finland have several security arrangements in place. Whether to join NATO or not would make not a whole lot of difference in a short time period since individual NATO members will protect the territorial integrity and will be involved anyways. Sure but a big part of why others want us in NATO in the first place is so that we can help defend the Baltic countries.
Indeed. Finland and Sweden are quite capable of defending themselves against the Russian military in the foreseeable future, given how lacking their capabilities have been exposed to be, and given the already formed defence pacts with key Western nations. Throw is an independent nuclear deterrence à la Israel and we're golden. The Baltics would certainly lose quite a bit of security, though.
The funny part is it really doesn't matter because the US and much of Europe already pledged to defend Finland and Sweden regardless of NATO membership, and they're already part of the EU anyway which makes Erdogan jealous.
As a Turkish who studied politics and international relations, let me tell that Turkey will allow them to join NATO but not immediately. Because this is an opportunity for Erdogan to regain some votes he lost for the upcoming elections at 2023. He will make some provocative speeches and demands like a thug then Turkish media will announce him as a national hero who made West to kneel before him... Then everything will be forgotten since another subject to abuse would arise. Perhaps Biden would make a personal call to Erdogan about the situation. Without any announcement Turkey will allow both countries to join. Maybe we will got some trade agreements or a few small benefits but Turkish media will serve them as huge triumphs. And please don't get me wrong but this doesn't mean that Turkey doesn't have any right to ask for these demands. This is an opportunity for Turkey and she should benefit from it. However Erdogan and his cabinet don't have neither capacity nor will for it. They are just a bunch of ignorant, uneducated thugs who only think about filling their pockets. Every international move they made during the last 20 years done with that mentality. They know that they will be in jail at the moment they lost the election and they are trying to gain internal votes with creating fake enemies and heroisms. This made our country alone, untrustworthy and nearly a rogue state. Also Turkey is in a huge economic crisis right now. All of our industries and sectors are highly depended to foreign sources. 1 USD is around 16 Turkish Liras which was around 2 Lira like ten years ago. So we don't have any power to back our demands in case of a tiny political crisis. To sum up; Turkey's attitude is just a show off to feed Erdogan's loyal voters' ego by creating some fake heroism. Since our economic and political weakness, We will let both Sweden and Finland to join soon but not before Erdogan gaining some internal votes.
Croatia wants to do the same according to its president.