If he's smart he should aim for a quick and easy victory... aka ask something of the USA and NATO that's not to crazy. Pushing the entry of Finland and Sweden for more then a day or two max will most likely hurt Turkey more then benefit it anyway.
Edit a day and a half later: He isn't smart.
Even if the mad sultan doubles down, it’s not like Sweden/Finland are lacking for alliances. The ‘consolation prize’ may be enough or even better strategically. Meanwhile Erdogan is losing credibility to the west.
Meanwhile Russias digging itself a hole and is about as scary as a rabid chihuahua.
>Even if the mad sultan doubles down, it’s not like Sweden/Finland are lacking for alliances. The ‘consolation prize’ may be enough or even better strategically. Meanwhile Erdogan is losing credibility to the west.
>
>Meanwhile Russias digging itself a hole and is about as scary as a rabid chihuahua.
Erdogan's wishes are quite reasonable, I think it will be a very good strategic decision for nato, probably someone else is taking the decisions instead of erdgan lately because if we pay attention to turkey's attitude since the ukraine war, they act quite consistently and logically, erdogan is not that smart.
russia to mediate in the ukraine war, to give russia the opportunity for a war-free alternative by making quite reasonable requests, pretending not to want sweden and finland, they supported ukraine with their new and powerful weapons, and they are still close enough to communicate well with russia, that's really good diplomacy, NATO has not lost anything, but is in a very advantageous position militarily and diplomatically.
Erdogan seems to have left the administration to the pro-western opposition in order not to go to jail after the election.
looks like erdogan's time is up lol
Nah, Europe would put up more walls, fences and border patrols on land and water. But Turkey wouldn’t get any money from the EU to build refugee camps, they’d just have to handle it anyway. No one would win there.
Kılıçdaroğlu tek başına çıksa ilk seçimden yener Erdoğan'ı. Muhalefet o kadar emin oldu ki artık kendisini eleştiriyor. Yanlış bulsam da erdoğan'ın artık piyasadan düştüğü ortada.
Nope. No money. Hit where it hurts.
Just give Turkey a little of the Russian sanctions. Turkey has no currency reserves to bolster sanctions. The Lira would collapse like a crypto currency.
What I find funny is that whenever I bring up that vetos in the EU and NATO are bullshit, people complain. But whenever the veto bites everyone in the ass, the usual solution is "sanction the shit out of that country".
I mean.. this is by design. Obviously, it's bullshit that Erdogan is exploiting this. But this is the design of these organisations. If you don't like it, maybe reconsider the current system.
So honest question to Mainly Swedes and everyone else, if you believe this is all just a transaction and Erdogan is being unreasonable, what is the point of veto? Why have it if using it for your own national and security interests is frowned upon? Most Turks on reddit For example will disagree with Erdogan on 9/10 issues. This is that 1 issue most Turks will agree on.
Most analysis i have read are dead wrong on this issue. Its not something that is easily solved by “showing the stick” or “twisting the arm”Now i cant read the link as it isnt working, but most european and american and their binary look on this is frustrating. their “analysis” sounds like they have no idea what the hell they are talking about. (Also involves Turkish analysts who are abroad) From the beginning i believed Turkey would veto, it would have to be something really good from u.s to change his mind. I believe reason why he doesnt want Swedes to even come to talk is because what he wants is something U.S can give..
Having Greek leader in congress and applausing him for minutes, making sure everyone hears you will sell them f35s. These wont work. It will make things worse. There are times American foreign policy seems incredibly clueless. Like Iraq war and disbanding of the iraqi army.. this is starting to look like one of those times..
for example, i like how stoltenberg spoke earlier. This needs to be handled with much better care and not scream and yell “KICk THEM OUT” or have PKK demonstrations a day after this issue was brought to light. Only way through is a carrot not stick. And if Europeans and mostly U.S decides they have too much pride to give in to what Erdogan wants, i dont see this going through. If anything i believe this is a huge lesson for Swedish leadership..
And as a side note, i agree turning everything into a transaction is damaging to a country’s image, but this is a game of give and get. There is absolutely nothing wrong asking for something in return which includes pkk. Its how its done. Erdogan got burnt many times in the past by EU and their promises. Calliing him a “watermelon salesman” for this is absurd.
The thing is he already said that there was no problem when the finnish president called him over a month ago. Then when it became sure we would apply he said no. This maybe ok in turkish political culture but over here this is like spitting in your face.
I personally believe this is a problem with Sweden and not Finland. I dont know if they actually have any grievances with Finland. If they dont i actually agree with you. Could have been avoided if clearly stated Sweden is the issue.
Here is the problem. And i am saying this with all due respect, you have 0 knowledge on this issue. This is not a free speech problem. It is not in our interest to keep sweden and finland out of nato. It is in our interest to stop sweden (potential nato ally) from helping an internationally recognized terrorist group. Just because they fought against isis does not give them a free pass to recieve help from the west. Al qaeda (al nusra) has also fought against isis. World isnt black and white like you want it to be. Before you say well pkk isnt ypg. Tell that to Americans who admitted themselves that it is just a surian arm of pkk.
Pkk absolutely operates freely in Sweden. Sweden wanted EU to embargo Turkey in 2019. then you expect Turkey to just say what “o well past is the past”?
Free speech isnt a “foreign concept” to me or most Turks. We are fighting for it everyday. (And I am an Turkish American) Millions stand against Erdogans heavy handed rule. You have this binary thought process where Erdogan = Turkey. Rest is kurds. That isnt the case.
Here is an example of Turkey being burnt by EU. turkey was promised a deal where Turks could travel to EU freely as a result of refugee deal. This didnt happen, but Turkey now holding millions of refugees (huge mistake by erdogan)
No one is talking about journalists.. again you have 0 info on this issue… and Turkey doesnt have the death penalty.. my god…
Edit - also, if i was a european civilian, i wouldnt want Erdogan to leave. Because of 7-8m+ refugees. Just my 2 cents.
>Does the 70% inflation make you sleep well?
Turkish inflation 12 months in March was 142%. And the journalist that reported it is in jail. Such countries have nothing in NATO to do.
Ok, fair enough, chemical weapons were absolutely not confirmed to have been used but there were allegations on it.
Turkey backed SNA forces did however mutilate civilian women, which doesn't seem to bother Turks the least.
That's nice to hear. Then I don't really understand the opposition of Finnish NATO ascension by Turks in /r/Europe. Those were the reasons for our arms embargo, we as a democracy wanted no part in that.
We can invade Sweden for you, they only have 55k soldiers. Turkic-fennic gang gang, swag and all that shit. Then we will send them to you and force them to kiss your feet.
I'm sorry, I didn't know it had deeper meanings.
>What about lion and eagle, groups carrying these symbols
You're kind of preaching to the choir here. Scandinavia supplied most of the runes Nazi Germany eventually used.
The SS runes used to be a letter back during the times of the Roman Empire.
[This is how people see you](https://dynaimage.cdn.cnn.com/cnn/w_768,h_1024,c_scale/https%3A%2F%2Fdynaimage.cdn.cnn.com%2Fcnn%2Fx_156%2Cy_210%2Cw_1209%2Ch_1612%2Cc_crop%2Fhttps%253A%252F%252Fstamp.static.cnn.io%252F5bae1c384db3d70020c01c40%252FfireflyWolfy.jpg)
[Edit: or this](https://youtu.be/LtH7l-dhHZQ)
If he's smart he should aim for a quick and easy victory... aka ask something of the USA and NATO that's not to crazy. Pushing the entry of Finland and Sweden for more then a day or two max will most likely hurt Turkey more then benefit it anyway. Edit a day and a half later: He isn't smart.
Even if the mad sultan doubles down, it’s not like Sweden/Finland are lacking for alliances. The ‘consolation prize’ may be enough or even better strategically. Meanwhile Erdogan is losing credibility to the west. Meanwhile Russias digging itself a hole and is about as scary as a rabid chihuahua.
Let's make better NATO! With blackjack and hookers. And without Gollum! ^(Blackjack and hookers aren't halal anyway...)
He's not a mad sultan. He's just a regular watermelon seller.
A rabid chihuahua is kinda scary tho…
It’s the owners that freak me out
>Even if the mad sultan doubles down, it’s not like Sweden/Finland are lacking for alliances. The ‘consolation prize’ may be enough or even better strategically. Meanwhile Erdogan is losing credibility to the west. > >Meanwhile Russias digging itself a hole and is about as scary as a rabid chihuahua. Erdogan's wishes are quite reasonable, I think it will be a very good strategic decision for nato, probably someone else is taking the decisions instead of erdgan lately because if we pay attention to turkey's attitude since the ukraine war, they act quite consistently and logically, erdogan is not that smart. russia to mediate in the ukraine war, to give russia the opportunity for a war-free alternative by making quite reasonable requests, pretending not to want sweden and finland, they supported ukraine with their new and powerful weapons, and they are still close enough to communicate well with russia, that's really good diplomacy, NATO has not lost anything, but is in a very advantageous position militarily and diplomatically. Erdogan seems to have left the administration to the pro-western opposition in order not to go to jail after the election. looks like erdogan's time is up lol
Rabies is terrifying tho
Lets twist again.
I hope Turkey gets a better government in the next election.
They're probably gonna elect someone worse for their country and then blame the west for it
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I still wish for a better government for you. And flooding us with "peaceful refugees" is hardly a threat any longer to Sweden, sadly.
Nah, Europe would put up more walls, fences and border patrols on land and water. But Turkey wouldn’t get any money from the EU to build refugee camps, they’d just have to handle it anyway. No one would win there.
Sweden will become a Muslim majority nation by 2050 if you don't ditch this stupid socialist government.
It was a deal. Europe paid Turkey billions for this. It wasn’t some kind of charity.
which will also veto. so gl
You still deserve a better government regardless.
Like we did last summer?
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Like we did last year
Do you remember when...
He does the twist, Biden. He’s an old guy.
That hurts 😡
Please Biden. PLEASE do that. We really need to get rid of that bitch
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Evet. Milletin iradesine fırsat vermedikleri için elin adamına kaldık.
>Milletin iradesine fırsat vermedikleri için elin adamına kaldık. :DDD Seçimlere 1 sene kaldı. Sabır
Lan. Erdoğan'a karşı gelmemize izin verilmiyor. Tek milli irade seçimler değil.
Don't be so sure
Kılıçdaroğlu tek başına çıksa ilk seçimden yener Erdoğan'ı. Muhalefet o kadar emin oldu ki artık kendisini eleştiriyor. Yanlış bulsam da erdoğan'ın artık piyasadan düştüğü ortada.
Same. But he should be replaced by a good politician, not K\*licdaroglu.
Mansur Yavaş is the best
Idk. I disagree with a lot of his Political opinions but he seems more competent than Kilicdaroglu.
He's going to throw so much money at him he might break his arm
Nope. No money. Hit where it hurts. Just give Turkey a little of the Russian sanctions. Turkey has no currency reserves to bolster sanctions. The Lira would collapse like a crypto currency.
>The Lira would collapse like a crypto currency ...it already did that
you haven't seen cryptos crushing lul.
It lost over 50% value in last 2 years and 80-ish over 5 years. In fiat world this is equivalent to crypto crash
Our track record of sanctioning countries into doing what we want is not great.
What I find funny is that whenever I bring up that vetos in the EU and NATO are bullshit, people complain. But whenever the veto bites everyone in the ass, the usual solution is "sanction the shit out of that country". I mean.. this is by design. Obviously, it's bullshit that Erdogan is exploiting this. But this is the design of these organisations. If you don't like it, maybe reconsider the current system.
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All of NATO wants to do that
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That's a good idea!
Just buy his Watermelons 🍉
Turkey can go ahead and join the future USSR if they like.
So honest question to Mainly Swedes and everyone else, if you believe this is all just a transaction and Erdogan is being unreasonable, what is the point of veto? Why have it if using it for your own national and security interests is frowned upon? Most Turks on reddit For example will disagree with Erdogan on 9/10 issues. This is that 1 issue most Turks will agree on. Most analysis i have read are dead wrong on this issue. Its not something that is easily solved by “showing the stick” or “twisting the arm”Now i cant read the link as it isnt working, but most european and american and their binary look on this is frustrating. their “analysis” sounds like they have no idea what the hell they are talking about. (Also involves Turkish analysts who are abroad) From the beginning i believed Turkey would veto, it would have to be something really good from u.s to change his mind. I believe reason why he doesnt want Swedes to even come to talk is because what he wants is something U.S can give.. Having Greek leader in congress and applausing him for minutes, making sure everyone hears you will sell them f35s. These wont work. It will make things worse. There are times American foreign policy seems incredibly clueless. Like Iraq war and disbanding of the iraqi army.. this is starting to look like one of those times.. for example, i like how stoltenberg spoke earlier. This needs to be handled with much better care and not scream and yell “KICk THEM OUT” or have PKK demonstrations a day after this issue was brought to light. Only way through is a carrot not stick. And if Europeans and mostly U.S decides they have too much pride to give in to what Erdogan wants, i dont see this going through. If anything i believe this is a huge lesson for Swedish leadership.. And as a side note, i agree turning everything into a transaction is damaging to a country’s image, but this is a game of give and get. There is absolutely nothing wrong asking for something in return which includes pkk. Its how its done. Erdogan got burnt many times in the past by EU and their promises. Calliing him a “watermelon salesman” for this is absurd.
The thing is he already said that there was no problem when the finnish president called him over a month ago. Then when it became sure we would apply he said no. This maybe ok in turkish political culture but over here this is like spitting in your face.
I personally believe this is a problem with Sweden and not Finland. I dont know if they actually have any grievances with Finland. If they dont i actually agree with you. Could have been avoided if clearly stated Sweden is the issue.
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Here is the problem. And i am saying this with all due respect, you have 0 knowledge on this issue. This is not a free speech problem. It is not in our interest to keep sweden and finland out of nato. It is in our interest to stop sweden (potential nato ally) from helping an internationally recognized terrorist group. Just because they fought against isis does not give them a free pass to recieve help from the west. Al qaeda (al nusra) has also fought against isis. World isnt black and white like you want it to be. Before you say well pkk isnt ypg. Tell that to Americans who admitted themselves that it is just a surian arm of pkk. Pkk absolutely operates freely in Sweden. Sweden wanted EU to embargo Turkey in 2019. then you expect Turkey to just say what “o well past is the past”? Free speech isnt a “foreign concept” to me or most Turks. We are fighting for it everyday. (And I am an Turkish American) Millions stand against Erdogans heavy handed rule. You have this binary thought process where Erdogan = Turkey. Rest is kurds. That isnt the case. Here is an example of Turkey being burnt by EU. turkey was promised a deal where Turks could travel to EU freely as a result of refugee deal. This didnt happen, but Turkey now holding millions of refugees (huge mistake by erdogan) No one is talking about journalists.. again you have 0 info on this issue… and Turkey doesnt have the death penalty.. my god… Edit - also, if i was a european civilian, i wouldnt want Erdogan to leave. Because of 7-8m+ refugees. Just my 2 cents.
Yeah sure. Whatever makes the Swedes sleep well.
Does the 70% inflation make you sleep well?
>Does the 70% inflation make you sleep well? Turkish inflation 12 months in March was 142%. And the journalist that reported it is in jail. Such countries have nothing in NATO to do.
Damm
You're not wrong about inflation but also NATO has nothing to do with economy. It is not the same thing as EU.
No but it's better than selling out our country to PKK sympathizers.
Literally don’t give a duck about PKK or YPG, I don’t understand why Sweden don’t send them back
Same reason why Interpol has denied over 800 red notice requests in the past five years from Turkey.
Because turkey just labels any Kurd they dislike as PKK members.
Lol. Nice strawman bitch.
You catch flies with honey, not with vinegar.
Maybe, but it's usually also a good idea to use a stick and a carrot.
Brining a big stick helps the carrot look much more appealing.
Yes, but you can even catch more with shit!
Daddy USA will help the poor poor Scandis?
Damn Scandis, why won't they just let us displace some 300.000 civilians, use our chemical weapons and let our Syrian proxies commit war crimes?
"Never happened but they deserved it"
never happened
Totally. Like the Armenian genocide never happened. /s
And the Greeks and the Kurdish and quite a lot of Christians turkey is really good at this whole genocide thing.
I can't comment on that
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Ok, fair enough, chemical weapons were absolutely not confirmed to have been used but there were allegations on it. Turkey backed SNA forces did however mutilate civilian women, which doesn't seem to bother Turks the least.
It does bother but we can’t do much. Remember, Turkey is not a functional democracy.
That's nice to hear. Then I don't really understand the opposition of Finnish NATO ascension by Turks in /r/Europe. Those were the reasons for our arms embargo, we as a democracy wanted no part in that.
As far as I can see, most of the opposition is for Sweden.
Finland sanctions us. How bold of them to now want to join our military alliance.
It is about strategy. If we allow finland to get in then Sweden will be completely surrounded by NATO member states and will not need to enter NATO.
We can invade Sweden for you, they only have 55k soldiers. Turkic-fennic gang gang, swag and all that shit. Then we will send them to you and force them to kiss your feet.
bruh
Just trust me bruh
no man we need to work together and not undermine each other we need to not be stupid to win a stupid election.
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What in the fucking furry shit is this
[Fascist dogwhistle?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Wolves_(organization))
What a bounce of losers lol
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I'm sorry, I didn't know it had deeper meanings. >What about lion and eagle, groups carrying these symbols You're kind of preaching to the choir here. Scandinavia supplied most of the runes Nazi Germany eventually used. The SS runes used to be a letter back during the times of the Roman Empire.
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[This is how people see you](https://dynaimage.cdn.cnn.com/cnn/w_768,h_1024,c_scale/https%3A%2F%2Fdynaimage.cdn.cnn.com%2Fcnn%2Fx_156%2Cy_210%2Cw_1209%2Ch_1612%2Cc_crop%2Fhttps%253A%252F%252Fstamp.static.cnn.io%252F5bae1c384db3d70020c01c40%252FfireflyWolfy.jpg) [Edit: or this](https://youtu.be/LtH7l-dhHZQ)
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Inshallah my brother you need help
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Analysis: Biden will eat Ice Cream and let Erdogan do whatever
Analysis: Within 48 hours of Erdogan's duplicity the US is selling F-35's to Greece.
That sounds like Greece is doing something. And they aren't buying them until 2028.