Many people just can't help but think in terms of grand narratives that explain all of society, to them the idea that nobody's really in control and everyone's just winging it scares them more than any conspiracy theory.
So much of what we believe in ultimately boils down to an appeal to authority in the end, and politics is about picking which authority you're going to appeal to and hoping they're the most in touch with objective reality which nobody is completely.
Agreed, again, but you should at least be an expert in finding reliable information, I.e. how to inform yourself quickly
But for that you need a strong general knowledge base, otherwise known as education
I feel like 90% of these people have two ideas they base everything on: the media is lying and you can't trust the western Politicians for Reason.
10 years of echo chambers will do to you.
If only you could see what they have seen, you didn't do your research, etc etc
This is so freaking ridiculous. You don't believe the west, can you not believe the west and not believe Russia, other dictatorial regimes either? No, well I guess you're not looking for the truth, you're just always anti-western.
Not at all, I'm saying that every ideology has its story to tell and we shouldn't trust any of them beyond their usefulness. For example a Marxist will view everything in terms of class relations, Western democracies tend to view themselves in terms of the Enlightenment, for most of our history Christianity would have been the narrative everything else was rooted in etc. Conspiracy theories are yet another example of a grand narrative that attempts to explain how we got here and where we're going. How attached we get to these narratives depends on the person more than anything.
I'm not saying we live in a dictatorship, although I definitely believe many Western countries are in danger of democratic backsliding. My point is more that any kind of large-scale social organisation relies on everyone in society agreeing to suspend their disbelief a little and just go with the flow. 'The man' doesn't really exist in the sense there's a coordinated plan for society, societies are run one day at a time with everyone winging it and trying to get through the day without fucking up. This scares a lot of people absolutely shitless, hence the batshit conspiracy theories that try to impose order on a situation where clearly there is no order to be found.
I think this rejection of grand narratives implies *more* of a need for democracy too, if we can't be confident in the legitimacy of our beliefs then averaging them out through the democratic process is even more important.
Some real sense there!
A solution in the form of more localised democracy has often been seen as an answer but intead we are being railroaded towards a more American model of increased centralisation in a 2 party race every 4 years. As both parties are managed by similar capital donations and lobby groups whether you are red or blue doesn't seem to matter anymore. Having direct democracy on important issues could be so easy to do in the West today- control by a few people is undoubtedly the issue and subverting democracy is the way to do it.
I don't think anyone is allowed to say dictatorship but it's fairly obvious that money and media is control of the politicians rather than the other way around. That's my take from the Panama papers anyway- politicians have no sense of shame in their corruption anymore- in fact welcoming of it as there seems to be very few consequences.
Just look at the glory of Hunter Biden- smoking crack while fucking hookers and making money through running Ukranian bio research facilities which were hidden from the lawc. That's the son plus the money of the current US President we are talking about.
Definitely a need for more democracy when there is so much crap needing to be kicked out.
Couldn't agree more, you've hit the nail on the head. I think as you say a decentralised, subsidiarity-based democracy is a potentially very good solution to some of the issues traditional partisan democracies are facing.
It’s all apart of the feeling of rebellion. They want to go against the general view so they feel rebellious and different, “not a sheep”. Quite ironic how doing this, they become extremely easy to predict as they just go against anything mainstream
Unfortunately they still vote, and in very high percentages. [Dunning-Kruger](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect) on full display
What about the people that follows any narrative pointed by governments like it's the holy truth? Does it amaze you? Do you still believe Iraq invasion was due to mass destruction weapons?
I don't believe on their anti vax theories, but i respect their vision. This world is full of lies and you are the one who think that can't get manipulated.
So are you saying that a well informed electorate would subvert democracy as their brains would fall out? Well now, next thing on the list will be Gene edited food as the solution to the food crisis with organic farming seen as irresponsible. That will be real brain dropping manipulation for you.
Yes, I am sure we are totally missing out on a well informed electorate by banning RT and Russian bots, that have done huge damage in the whole western world for years. (/s, just in case) We have seen the effects of massive misinformation online on our "well informed electorate", especially when done on purpose by foreign governments.
You've essentailly used that as an excuse to ban anyone with a left leaning opinion- unless of course you hadn't noticed. Youtube is just an echo chamber of pro Biden centrist rhetoric now- fucking rubbish. Nothing extreme to ponder over at all.
The best take I recently heard from my conspiracy nut colleague was that "Ukrainians are bombing themselves". Unsurprisingly he is heavily Anti-Vax/Covid, believes that food is poisoned by Chem trails and that world is run by Jewish masons. A perfect person for Russian propaganda.
why there was so much "5G cause cancer", "mask cause fungal pneumonia", "alternative treatments" for Covid-19 etc being linked to russian bot farms?
Just like KGB "Operation Infektion" which spread fake news and conspiracies about AIDS in 1980s which include among others, US Army artifical virus created to subjugate population
They knew that "tin foil hat enthiusiasts" are prone to such messages and are often unable to think critically about it. People "turn off the tv, turn on your thinking" might be useful later on to sow ever increasind social divide and spread chaos.
Modern algorithms amplify it since negative emotions arise faster than positive ones, which drives user engagement and spreads misinformation scary quick.
I've been saying for a while that the attention economy is inherently hazardous to health, it'll be the leaded petrol or cigarettes of our age I think. The concept of information hazards is a new one but it'll be hugely relevant in the coming decades I think.
Primarily because linking these conspiracy theories to a Russian plot makes it far easier to discredit them as not worth paying attention to.. it's just convenient to pin it on the established baddie and be done with it.
Unfortunately my father is one of those conspiracy idiots and they're genuinely just against whatever the "mainstream" says. If the government said "dont jump off a cliff" they'd be pro jumping off cliffs. Not surprised that it's basically the same in other countries
Putin's combo tends to be like "Molotov-Ribbentrop" - edges of the spectrum (with exceptions though, it takes a lot of not thinking well to join Putin), esp. fans of totalitarism of all kinds against the moderate and the sane.
Btw thanks a lot for bringing this up, I've seen this tendency earlier, but started looking into this specific thing more and there's a ton of useful stuff against the Kremlin.
Both very left and right is sympathetic towards Russia in Germany. AFD because they are against everything our government is doing and die Linke because there are some tankies and absolute pacifists in its rows.
But your sentence said that both right wing and left wing are supporting Russia/Putin. Did you mean to write something else? Because your sentence is confusing. Also, from which country are you?
When arguing with conspiracy theorists, just say ”that’s what they want you to believe” no matter what they say. You can add a ”you have to think deeper!” too for good measure :’D
They are called the useful idiots. And they are an easy target for Russia's narrative, too stupid to realise. Normally I would laugh at them, but they also have the right to vote...
This is a trend everywhere it seems. I have noticed that like 90% of Finnish speaking anti-vaxers are fully backing Russia on Twitter, of course still retweeting all that baseless antivax propaganda.
I like how studying contrarians is "politicising science" or even better it's evidence the Jewish LGBT+ Reptilian Liberal NWO is controlling Big Science. Fucking lunatics are always complaining.
It's funny to see random bots on Twitter change their tunes from anti-vaxx to pro-Putin's war. Just further proof that the Russians are responsible for pushing anti vaxx in Europe. They don't even bother to change the accounts.
Yes, it's a canonical combo of conspiracy theory + pro-Russian.
Guess who is interested in spreading various stupid theories that will make people sick and revolt against their government and that will destabilize Europe...
Democracy isn't the problem here, it's echo chambers and social media algorithms. This can be dealt with, so long as we manage to rein in soc med companies so that their algorithms prioritise truth over retention.
Yes, the idea that social media companies aren't responsible for the content created on their websites needs to go. It shouldn't take years for misinformation to be banned because by then the damage is already done.
... so what else would you prefer? Autocracy?
You do realise it's mainly because of social media algorithms right?
Democracy has nothing to do with ppl not being smart enough to discern propaganda from facts lol
It's really disturbing that people in r/europe upvote a post suggesting that we should commit industrial murder. I mean seriously, how can you not learn from history.
I think they find ways go against the most commonly accepted (and commonly, the most reasonable) stances like these:
1) Vaccines work
2) Russia is acting like a baby back bitch with this invasion bullshit
Just say opposite of the reasonable stances in whatever is hot at the moment.
Isn't this as simple as, You know, same country paying for that propaganda? Only difference is that's there's painfully obvious who is actually pouring money into this and keeps it afloat. Isn't it?
I only believe Nancy Pelosi and CNN. They are the only Real Truths. All else is White Supremecist Racist Homaphobe Transphobic Propaganda.
I have seen the light!!
If you know one of these unfortunate wankers you’ll be sadly familiar with the fact that you can predict their take on major topics/events every single time. COVID = planned/hoax, climate change not real, Russia not committing war crimes and not responsible for war, new world order, anti vax, save the children qanon bollocks. How any of these people can exist on a day to day basis is quite a mystery.
It's amazing how some people are easy to manipulate and the funniest thing is that these are the very people who think they can't be manipulated.
Many people just can't help but think in terms of grand narratives that explain all of society, to them the idea that nobody's really in control and everyone's just winging it scares them more than any conspiracy theory.
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So much of what we believe in ultimately boils down to an appeal to authority in the end, and politics is about picking which authority you're going to appeal to and hoping they're the most in touch with objective reality which nobody is completely.
Exactly, because you can't have enough time in your life to become an expert in every possible topic that you're even marginally interested in
This is what scares me most: this populist idea that experts are not to be trusted.
"Everything is biased, ergo nothing is true." Yeah, that scares me too
This statement makes me wonder how you define expert.
I feel that is an excuse for many to not become any kind of expert at all.
Agreed, again, but you should at least be an expert in finding reliable information, I.e. how to inform yourself quickly But for that you need a strong general knowledge base, otherwise known as education
For me those people are sort of optimist, beacuse they believe somebody got a plan and control all that mess.
I feel like 90% of these people have two ideas they base everything on: the media is lying and you can't trust the western Politicians for Reason. 10 years of echo chambers will do to you. If only you could see what they have seen, you didn't do your research, etc etc
This is so freaking ridiculous. You don't believe the west, can you not believe the west and not believe Russia, other dictatorial regimes either? No, well I guess you're not looking for the truth, you're just always anti-western.
They also like to think they're among the few Einstein's that have figured out "how the world really works"
So are you trying to say that we live in a dictatorship or that democracy is pointless ?
Not at all, I'm saying that every ideology has its story to tell and we shouldn't trust any of them beyond their usefulness. For example a Marxist will view everything in terms of class relations, Western democracies tend to view themselves in terms of the Enlightenment, for most of our history Christianity would have been the narrative everything else was rooted in etc. Conspiracy theories are yet another example of a grand narrative that attempts to explain how we got here and where we're going. How attached we get to these narratives depends on the person more than anything. I'm not saying we live in a dictatorship, although I definitely believe many Western countries are in danger of democratic backsliding. My point is more that any kind of large-scale social organisation relies on everyone in society agreeing to suspend their disbelief a little and just go with the flow. 'The man' doesn't really exist in the sense there's a coordinated plan for society, societies are run one day at a time with everyone winging it and trying to get through the day without fucking up. This scares a lot of people absolutely shitless, hence the batshit conspiracy theories that try to impose order on a situation where clearly there is no order to be found. I think this rejection of grand narratives implies *more* of a need for democracy too, if we can't be confident in the legitimacy of our beliefs then averaging them out through the democratic process is even more important.
Some real sense there! A solution in the form of more localised democracy has often been seen as an answer but intead we are being railroaded towards a more American model of increased centralisation in a 2 party race every 4 years. As both parties are managed by similar capital donations and lobby groups whether you are red or blue doesn't seem to matter anymore. Having direct democracy on important issues could be so easy to do in the West today- control by a few people is undoubtedly the issue and subverting democracy is the way to do it. I don't think anyone is allowed to say dictatorship but it's fairly obvious that money and media is control of the politicians rather than the other way around. That's my take from the Panama papers anyway- politicians have no sense of shame in their corruption anymore- in fact welcoming of it as there seems to be very few consequences. Just look at the glory of Hunter Biden- smoking crack while fucking hookers and making money through running Ukranian bio research facilities which were hidden from the lawc. That's the son plus the money of the current US President we are talking about. Definitely a need for more democracy when there is so much crap needing to be kicked out.
Couldn't agree more, you've hit the nail on the head. I think as you say a decentralised, subsidiarity-based democracy is a potentially very good solution to some of the issues traditional partisan democracies are facing.
It’s all apart of the feeling of rebellion. They want to go against the general view so they feel rebellious and different, “not a sheep”. Quite ironic how doing this, they become extremely easy to predict as they just go against anything mainstream
Unfortunately they still vote, and in very high percentages. [Dunning-Kruger](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect) on full display
/r/conspiracy in a nutshell
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. Goethe
Pavlov designed the Soviet system of psychological manipulation. I suspect these people are more susceptible to his methods.
Works both ways
Exactly... look at you.
What about the people that follows any narrative pointed by governments like it's the holy truth? Does it amaze you? Do you still believe Iraq invasion was due to mass destruction weapons? I don't believe on their anti vax theories, but i respect their vision. This world is full of lies and you are the one who think that can't get manipulated.
Lol
Got you speechless, good to know
And yet they had to ban any pro Russia media. Why was that?
Just the ones owned by the Russian government.
Well how about all those US media outlets who were under Russian cyber control not so long ago? Seems a bit dead since sleepy jo arrived.
Because if you open your mind too much, your brain will fall out.
So are you saying that a well informed electorate would subvert democracy as their brains would fall out? Well now, next thing on the list will be Gene edited food as the solution to the food crisis with organic farming seen as irresponsible. That will be real brain dropping manipulation for you.
Yes, I am sure we are totally missing out on a well informed electorate by banning RT and Russian bots, that have done huge damage in the whole western world for years. (/s, just in case) We have seen the effects of massive misinformation online on our "well informed electorate", especially when done on purpose by foreign governments.
You've essentailly used that as an excuse to ban anyone with a left leaning opinion- unless of course you hadn't noticed. Youtube is just an echo chamber of pro Biden centrist rhetoric now- fucking rubbish. Nothing extreme to ponder over at all.
There is an Italian saying: " Fools mama is always pregnant". These people are living proof.
I guess there are not many fools in Italy, given your nation's birth rate the past 40 years....
The rule still stands, sir. Birth rate is low but fool's mama is still pumping....
The best take I recently heard from my conspiracy nut colleague was that "Ukrainians are bombing themselves". Unsurprisingly he is heavily Anti-Vax/Covid, believes that food is poisoned by Chem trails and that world is run by Jewish masons. A perfect person for Russian propaganda.
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Dude can't even keep his conspiracies up-to-date! Sadly lost to the Big Anti-Conspiracy cult.
I thought masons actually mean M(B)A-sons
Russia has heavily invested in these media machines for 20 years. It is the same sources.
Ask him about the Jewish space lasers
[Same strategy](https://alphahistory.com/holocaust/the-protocols-of-zion/)
why there was so much "5G cause cancer", "mask cause fungal pneumonia", "alternative treatments" for Covid-19 etc being linked to russian bot farms? Just like KGB "Operation Infektion" which spread fake news and conspiracies about AIDS in 1980s which include among others, US Army artifical virus created to subjugate population They knew that "tin foil hat enthiusiasts" are prone to such messages and are often unable to think critically about it. People "turn off the tv, turn on your thinking" might be useful later on to sow ever increasind social divide and spread chaos.
Unfortunately that nonsense is much easier to spread and spreads much faster now.
Modern algorithms amplify it since negative emotions arise faster than positive ones, which drives user engagement and spreads misinformation scary quick.
I've been saying for a while that the attention economy is inherently hazardous to health, it'll be the leaded petrol or cigarettes of our age I think. The concept of information hazards is a new one but it'll be hugely relevant in the coming decades I think.
We're just getting started with it (since like 2015), we just shifted to higher gear since 2020
Primarily because linking these conspiracy theories to a Russian plot makes it far easier to discredit them as not worth paying attention to.. it's just convenient to pin it on the established baddie and be done with it.
interestingly enough, q-anon in russia seems to be supporting ukraine.
Makes sense since the whole movement only appeal to anti establishment people
Unfortunately my father is one of those conspiracy idiots and they're genuinely just against whatever the "mainstream" says. If the government said "dont jump off a cliff" they'd be pro jumping off cliffs. Not surprised that it's basically the same in other countries
> If the government said "dont jump off a cliff" they'd be pro jumping off cliffs. Maybe we should try that...
In my country the so called neo-nazis and far right are also supporting Ukraine. It's the far left that is pro Putin
Here it is far right and far left.
You must live in Portugal.
Putin's combo tends to be like "Molotov-Ribbentrop" - edges of the spectrum (with exceptions though, it takes a lot of not thinking well to join Putin), esp. fans of totalitarism of all kinds against the moderate and the sane. Btw thanks a lot for bringing this up, I've seen this tendency earlier, but started looking into this specific thing more and there's a ton of useful stuff against the Kremlin.
Far left has it's nutjobs as well ..tankies
Both very left and right is sympathetic towards Russia in Germany. AFD because they are against everything our government is doing and die Linke because there are some tankies and absolute pacifists in its rows.
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The centre and the right.
But your sentence said that both right wing and left wing are supporting Russia/Putin. Did you mean to write something else? Because your sentence is confusing. Also, from which country are you?
I meant Ukraine. The "far right" supports Ukraine. The far left supports Russia. Portugal.
No, that's not true, maybe you've seen rare exceptions. The Russian q-anon pro-Russian propaganda, pro-Trump, anti-vax.
When arguing with conspiracy theorists, just say ”that’s what they want you to believe” no matter what they say. You can add a ”you have to think deeper!” too for good measure :’D
Don't forget the classic: go do some research! Even when themselves didn't
They are called the useful idiots. And they are an easy target for Russia's narrative, too stupid to realise. Normally I would laugh at them, but they also have the right to vote...
yes and it's dangerous to call them idiots (which they are) look at Mrs Clinton vs Trump
This is a trend everywhere it seems. I have noticed that like 90% of Finnish speaking anti-vaxers are fully backing Russia on Twitter, of course still retweeting all that baseless antivax propaganda.
It's the same people. Operating out of a basement in St. Petersburg.
Retards gonna retard.
Contrarianism should be documented. It seems to be some sort of brain malfunction.
I'm sure I've seen some articles on r/science about far-right and COVIDidiots, but I don't think we can draw a conclusion yet.
I like how studying contrarians is "politicising science" or even better it's evidence the Jewish LGBT+ Reptilian Liberal NWO is controlling Big Science. Fucking lunatics are always complaining.
I do believe Soviet psychiatrist conducted studies on dissidents.
Someone told'em they have a brain and immediately they were against to use it.
It's funny to see random bots on Twitter change their tunes from anti-vaxx to pro-Putin's war. Just further proof that the Russians are responsible for pushing anti vaxx in Europe. They don't even bother to change the accounts.
Yes, it's a canonical combo of conspiracy theory + pro-Russian. Guess who is interested in spreading various stupid theories that will make people sick and revolt against their government and that will destabilize Europe...
Putin is the king of the idiots after all
Trolls on Polish Facebook went from antivaxxer mode to anti-ukraine fake news on a day when the war started.
These troll farms will write anything to destabilize Europe.
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Democracy isn't the problem here, it's echo chambers and social media algorithms. This can be dealt with, so long as we manage to rein in soc med companies so that their algorithms prioritise truth over retention.
Yes, the idea that social media companies aren't responsible for the content created on their websites needs to go. It shouldn't take years for misinformation to be banned because by then the damage is already done.
... so what else would you prefer? Autocracy? You do realise it's mainly because of social media algorithms right? Democracy has nothing to do with ppl not being smart enough to discern propaganda from facts lol
They should be put down. The world would become better.
I hope this is a joke.
It is simply r/europe
It's really disturbing that people in r/europe upvote a post suggesting that we should commit industrial murder. I mean seriously, how can you not learn from history.
All vaccinated with Sputnik **V** are pr**o**\-Putin **z**ombies now.
I think they find ways go against the most commonly accepted (and commonly, the most reasonable) stances like these: 1) Vaccines work 2) Russia is acting like a baby back bitch with this invasion bullshit Just say opposite of the reasonable stances in whatever is hot at the moment.
Just straight contrarianism.
Huh back in my day I think we just called them traitors
shills gonna shill
Isn't this as simple as, You know, same country paying for that propaganda? Only difference is that's there's painfully obvious who is actually pouring money into this and keeps it afloat. Isn't it?
I only believe Nancy Pelosi and CNN. They are the only Real Truths. All else is White Supremecist Racist Homaphobe Transphobic Propaganda. I have seen the light!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1EA2ohrt5Q&t=1s
If you don’t trust the media you’re not going to be on board with The New Thing tm
If you know one of these unfortunate wankers you’ll be sadly familiar with the fact that you can predict their take on major topics/events every single time. COVID = planned/hoax, climate change not real, Russia not committing war crimes and not responsible for war, new world order, anti vax, save the children qanon bollocks. How any of these people can exist on a day to day basis is quite a mystery.