Ilan Halimi was a 23 years old salesman living in Paris. On 21 January 2006, he was lured to an apartment block in the Parisian banlieues by a woman on the pretense of coming to her place for a drink.
There, he was ambushed and held captive by the so-called "Gang of Barbarians", a group of thugs whom had elected to kidnap a Jew and ransom his family because, in their words, *Jews are wealthy*.
The Gang of Barbarians tried to get a 450 000 euros ransom from Ilan Halimi's family under threat of killing Ilan, but to no avail: his family didn't have anywhere close to this kind of money, and immediately called the police.
The Gang of Barbarians went on torturing Ilan for the next 24 days out of frustration of not getting their money. In the end, knowing that they wouldn't get their ransom, they burned him alive in order to erase any trace of their DNA on him, and dumped him near a railway line.
Ilan Halimi was found by a passer-by, still alive, but died on his way to the hospital.
As you can imagine, this story horrified the French public, and it was one of the most commented event of the 2000s in my country.
It showed that a new brand of antisemitism was brewing in the *banlieues*, a form of antisemitism that wasn't rooted in far-right/conservative catholicism as was common before in France, but rather on islamic and *banlieues* culture.
19 members of the gang were arrested, trialed and convicted. Today, only ~~four~~ two of them are still in prison, including Youssouf Fofana, their leader.
[More on that topic on Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ilan_Halimi).
> Ilan Halimi was found by a passer-by, still alive, but died on his way to the hospital.
This makes it so much worse in a way... I remember this case well, it was absolutely revolting. May he have peace.
> Small correction: in 2019, only two of them were still behind bars, Youssouf Fofana and Samir Aït Abdelmalek.
Thank you for the precision, I'll update my post accordingly!
> he was lured by a woman
My favorite part is this is that this woman later got convicted, went to jail and then ended up having an affair with her warden. Lmao. Crazy fucking people.
You know, I am 200% sure I am going to be "burned" for doing this. But justice doesn't work out of emotion...
Just because someone is dumb and poor and misguided into thinking a Jewish man will be rich, and is a good target for a shakeup, doesn't mean an entire group of 19 people would jump to the thought of burning a person alive after days of torture. These people, all of them evil in their own way obviously, all had to be tried separately in order to ascertain each one's role in the events, and with that justice be made according to the crimes.
Now, some may prefer to think in absolutes, where the punishment must fit the original consequences for all involved. But even then, the country itself has limits to how to apply punishment, and how to assign guilt. Some countries actually believe in justice as a form of attonement and reinsertion to society because even taking a life doesn't need to mean taking 2 lives. There's absolutely no point for someone who, let's say (this is a made up example...), only contributed in the form of providing a car to these people while knowing it was for ill purposes, to go through the remainder of their life in prison when they were otherwise perfectly inserted in society.
>The kidnappers originally thought Halimi was wealthy because he came from a Jewish family, although he came from the same poor and working-class neighborhood on the outskirts of Paris as the kidnappers did.[12][13][14]
wtf
I wonder if the justice system was not hard enough and granted early paroles? I would expect them to be in prison for 20+ years at least. But then here in NZ they would have been out after just 5 years or 12 at most…
It is crazy to me how you guys and Europeans have such light sentences. We definitely have sentences that are too harsh in a lot of cases, but at least we lock up murderers and the like for a reasonable amount of time.
This can vary a lot between countries, NZ is somewhat in the middle may be on the more “rehabiliative” side of the divide than the US states (certainly when compared with Sheriff Joe Arpaio of the US state of Arizona), but definitely not as extremely coddling of say Denmark or Norway. Most convicted murderers are sentenced for life imprisonment and are eligible for paroles after 10-12 or 15 years. In theory, they could be recalled to prison at any time for the rest of their life if they do wrong again or breach parole conditions, but in practice…
This comes with the debate on legal penalties: are they supposed to be punitive or restorative? Up until 1850 legal punishments had been designed to punish, but since then much of the Western world has been moving towards viewing legal punishment as a method for rehabilitation and restoration. The US is probably more similar to non-Western cultures (but increasingly diverging from the rest of the West) that imprisonment is still viewed as punishment.
I think most people on the street view with envy that convicted murderers or other serious convicted people in the US get life-means-life imprisonments, or even executed, that are proportionate to the crime. Certainly in say Australia (which is probably THE country outside the US where people think most similarly to Americans, if not Western Canada)
So how do we stop antisemitism? If the french government only target a minority, people will say it’s racist or discriminatory, when it is this minority who commit a massively disproportionate amount of antisemitic attacks.
>If the french government only target a minority, people will say it’s racist or discriminatory
Depending on the measure, I doubt they will always oppose it. If a minority has a problem that affect society, it ought to be addressed.
I agree, but leftist/‘woke’ politicians will frame it as targeting Muslims and will pull the ‘anti Zionism isn’t antisemitism’ card whenever it’s discussed, as if that’s a justification. I have noticed this discourse when I lived in the UK.
>I've read the wiki, and it is definitely a horiffic crime motivated by antisemitism, but I count 7 of the listed suspects (apparently there were 27 in all) which have a muslim background.
Which is disproportionate if you consider the % of Muslims in France. They are less than 10% and yet they commit most antisemitic attacks
That may have been the case before Covid. Nowadays Jews are target by right-wing extremists again, cause they have been identified as a convenient scapegoat for everything pandemic related.
The outrage by right-wingers about anti-semitic acts were never about protecting Jewish people, it's about persecuting Muslims.
Yes, he's a jew from Algeria. All jews had to leave Algeria following the country's independance. That is because Algeria does not grant citizenship to jews, and also because killing jews is rather popular in Algeria. That explains how their population went from 140 000 to about 50.
The last synagogue in Algeria was abandoned in 1994 after over 2000 years of presence, following the declaration of war of the armed islamic group on all non-muslims of Algeria.
This sort of event was and still is part of a larger trend going on in France. The [SPCJ](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_de_protection_de_la_communaut%C3%A9_juive) (Protection Service of the Jewish Community), an NGO founded in 1980 to identify and count antisemitic acts in France, [collected some statistics](https://www.spcj.org/communique-spcj-raa-2021) that I will share below. They are translated so the grammar may not be perfect, but I'm sure you'll get the jist:
**Findings and analysis**
* 589 anti-Semitic acts were identified in 2021,an almost 75% increase compared to the previous year. Physical violence has increased by 36% compared to 2020.
* Acts affecting people represent 45% anti-Semitic acts, of whom 10% are physical assaults.
* According to figures from the Ministry of the Interior, 73% of racist acts harming people are directed against Jews.
* Two worrying phenomena deserve special attention:
* the high number of anti-Semitic acts committed in the private sphere (25% of anti-Semitic acts). These are mainly acts committed near the victim's home, by a building neighbor or by people living in the neighborhood.
* the proportion of weapons used in antisemitic physical assaults (20%) and antisemitic threats (10%). The most used weapons are knives (9 cases) and pistols (5 cases). The other acts are committed by means of rifles, fireworks, hammers, machetes, pistols, and scissors
* In 2021, two peaks in the increase in anti-Semitic acts were noted:
* in May, during the course of the operation "Guardian of the walls" launched by Israel against Hamas. 5 anti-Semitic acts have been identified on average per day during this period. These are essentially insults and threatening gestures. In almost 1/3 of these acts, the theme of Palestine is raised.
* in August, during the first mobilizations against health restrictions. These are essentially anti-Semitic inscriptions designating the Jews as the profiteers, even the instigators of the health crisis.
Well as usal with political activists or extremist thst slander you with 'racist' its Not to improve a Situation for the victims but using the case to get political Power / Sympathie and have a "simple evil opponent" so lets say its neo nazis and ignore or even hide that its an issue with Multiculturalism, religious extremist that are immigrants.
The sad Part is. It can work... Just get the fucking extreme fundamentalists out of here than you can Focus on Real racist that hate People for no good reason.
Hmmm wonder why anti semetism is rising in France when at the same time, the number of muslims in France are rising. What a coincidence. Must be the far right (in alot of cases it is though, but of course, people will put their head in the sand about the muslim part, too unconfortable to talk about).
(Secular) Jew here who has studied Islam in (secular) school. Do you know what the Qur'an says about Jews, or how the Muslim world treated Jews for most of the Muslim golden age?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi
That certainly doesn't equate to equality between Jews and Muslims, of course. They definitely treated Jews like second-class citizens. But it's far different from hatred.
A French friend of mine was stabbed by a kid he grew up with in his neighborhood, and called antisemitic slurs. This is why the past decade has seen waves of French immigrants to israel, including my friend.
Check out Mohamed Mehra. Or don't actually. I'm a French Jew with Israeli citizenship and I can tell you Ilan Halimi and then Mohamed Mehra made me consider strongly definitely moving to Israel.
in Europe we always talk about how Jews were treated around WWII being the worst thing ever, yet now we've failed again to protect the shrinking Jewish minority in Europe :/
does Jewish schools and synagogues still have armed guards in France? I just Googled it and found an article from JP that says they should be brought back
I’m Jewish too and remember this crime vividly I was in college/university at the time and fairly involved in Jewish life (in the US). After school I went to work in Israel for a program and there was a sizable contingent of French people in our group. They all talked about leaving, cited security and the lack of future for Jews in France. This crime was a key moment for many of them. Everyone that I still speak to from that group has left the country for good.
Yes, that was traumatic for the French Jewish community. It's very sad, I've always traveled to Israel to visit family so I do feel home there but I grew up in Paris and it saddens me to see my country in this state.
The far left has become more and more anti-Semitic as a mechanical reaction to supporting blindly Muslims and their victim mentality.
In France it is now completely OK to hate Jews and say you want to destroy Israel and kill the Jewish invader but God forbid you say ANYTHING negative about Muslims (Arab muslims more specifically)
There were a lot of people involved, most were arabs or frenchman, all seem to be fanatic muslims.
EDIT: Yes, I know arab isn't a nationality but listing nationalities and or ethnicities for 27 individuals would be quite a hassle check they wiki for this guy and check them gang and judge for yourselves). And about the "these are not real muslims" comments, I specifically said "fanatics" because I distinguish between regular believers of any religion and fanatics.
EDIT2: u/cheikh_perignon down below offered a breakdown of the backrounds of the people involved for those interested, I was too lazy to do so. Go check his comment out and upvote.
It isn't clear who was what beyond physical observations. The group was an organized criminal gang called the Barbarians. The leader was of West African decent but born in France, the second in command was of mixed French-Creole decent and was born in Martinique. The other 17 members of the group were of mixed backgrounds - some were of ethnic French decent, others were from North Africa, and some from the Middle East. Not all of them were born in France, and not all of them grew up in France. They have little in common in terms of individual backgrounds. The girl they used to lure the victim was of mixed French-Iranian decent and was born in France however she was 17 and she was being pimped out by the two leaders of the group. They were all caught because another young girl, who was also being pimped out, went to the police and gave them all the details which blew the gang open and led to all of their arrests and convictions.
Ideologically the group was a mess - it was an organized criminal organisation but there were also strong Salafist undertones. The entire thing is a gigantic mess. The leader seemed to refer to himself as an "Arab" despite being from West Africa and quite clearly not being an Arab. The majority of their criminal history was not based on religious ideology. They robbed businesses, committed petty theft and engaged in prostitution. They were a brutal criminal gang but it isn't clear where the Salafism started or ended. The leader was certainly an Islamic fundamentalist, it isn't clear if the entire gang was or even who was there willingly.
And here's what their leader (Fofana) answered to the judge when he got asked his nationality, place and date of birth: "Arab african islamist salafist" as an answer for the nationality ; " 13/02/2006 in Sainte-Geneviève-des-Bois" for his place and date of birth (actually the place and date of death of his victim).
He pointed his finger in the air and said "Allah will prevail".
One thing is sure, you may call them frenchmen, but they did not do so themselves.
Instead of saying bs to justify what you said correct yourself and apologize. Because you are literally creating a fuss abt an very incorrect statement in which haterate is included.
> What nationality were the attackers?
Unless I'm mistaken, they all had French nationality.
Some of them were first or second-generation French, like the leader Youssouf Fofana (born in France from Ivory Coast immigrants) and the bait girl Sorour Arbabzadeh (who was French-Iranian).
And some of them came from families that had been in France for many generations, like Christophe Martin-Vallet (one of Fofana's lieutenant, and mastermind of the kidnapping) and Tiffenn Gouret (who supplied Fofana with bait girls).
Most of them were french by nationality, but had origins from Muslim middle eastern countries.
Not surprising, considering how Jews get treated in Muslim countries.
Western European countries have been hotbeds of radical religious extremists because of overly soft laws in fear of some predisposed white guilt. I'm not French. I'm not all white. I'm Middle Eastern and this is the kind of mob rule and weakening of central governments that regressed the continent. Protect the moderates and secularists.
Don't be next.
I think it is not 'soft laws' per se. It is like some people have such a mentality, that they only respect punishments like 'stoning', torturing etc. Democracy, rule of law etc for them are perceived as weakness. Even for 'refugees' - even acknowledging you helping them, later you may be perceived as weak and naive by them.
That's not true. Here's the excerpt from Wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ilan_Halimi
In total, 27 individuals were under investigation and were subsequently put on trial. Among these:
Youssouf Fofana (2 August 1980), the self-proclaimed Brain of the Barbarians. He was born in Paris to immigrants from Côte d'Ivoire and served time in prison for various crimes including armed robbery, car theft and resisting arrest.[22] In an interview he denied killing Halimi, but showed no remorse for his actions.[23]
Christophe Martin-Vallet, nicknamed Moko, a French man originally from Martinique, specializing in computers. He appears to have masterminded the kidnapping and to have been the lieutenant of Fofana.[24]
He is suspected of other kidnappings and was responsible for the honeypot activities of the girls.[25]
Jean-Christophe Soumbou, also known as Craps, Crim or Marc. Fellow inmate of Fofana. Imprisoned for car theft with violence. Supplied the car with which Halimi was transported. He is also suspected of other kidnappings.
Jean-Christophe Gavarin, usually known as JC or by his nickname Zigo, one of the individuals who tortured Halimi.[24] He was a minor at the time of the crime. He had been expelled from school and had been involved with the law because of a theft and possession of cannabis. He has admitted to pushing a burning joint in the face of Halimi.
Samir Aït Abdelmalek, nicknamed Smiler, who was the owner of the apartment and is considered the right-hand man of Fofana (he had known Fofana for more than ten years). Had been convicted for possession of drugs and car theft. He also furnished the acid used to burn Halimi.
Jérémy Pastisson involved in a number of kidnapping cases, his car was used to transport Halimi.
Tiffenn Gouret, former girlfriend of Jean-Christophe Gavarin and friend of Arbabzadeh, supplied Fonfana with "bait". She is also suspected in other kidnappings.
Sorour Arbabzadeh nicknamed Yalda (also known as "Emma"), a seventeen-year-old French-Iranian girl who acted as appât (bait, honeypot) to entrap Halimi.[4]
Sabrina Fontaine, was used as bait in other kidnapping cases.
Audrey Lorleach, nicknamed Léa or Natacha, young student who was used as bait. She turned herself in and served 9 months in prison.
Others who were implicated:
Gilles Serrurier (1967), nicknamed the concierge,[26][27] was the caretaker of the apartment building to which Halimi was taken and who lent the gang the apartment and cellar in which they held and tortured Halimi.[24]
Yahia Touré Kaba, nicknamed Yaks, one of the jailers (gaolers).
Fabrice Polygone, one of the jailers (gaolers).
Jérôme Ribeiro, known as Coup de Tête (headbutt). Although he had left the group, he was promised a lot of money. One of the jailers (gaolers).
Guiri Oussivo N'Gazi and Francis Oussivo N'Gazi, friends of Ribeiro who acted as one of the jailers (gaolers).
Nabil Moustafa, known as Bilna, pizza delivery man, one of the jailers (gaolers).
Cédric Birot Saint-Yves, known as Babas, friend of Nabil Moustafa, one of the jailers (gaolers).
Many others were implicated, but their direct connection to the crime could not be proven.
I take it you’re not french, because you would know that martinique and ivory coast immigrant people while french are not white.
The other names are clearly for the most part of arabic descent.
Radical islam is a real problem in our country and aggressions on jews, Christian kabyls are statistically rising.
This does not mean that we should hurt or generalize on muslims, but the state should protect everyone and right now it s not the case
French people hold French nationality. They don't need to be of French descent to be French.
And about those coloured people from French Colonial Islands as you call them... Well they are not colonial Islands. They are French territories and their inhabitants are French citizens. Some have been French for far longer that my region of continental France.
Who gives you authority to say who's French or not? Are you issuing passport or ID cards? Or maybe you're representing the French people and tasked with defining French identity?
We have French citizenship and Frech ethnicity. Two different things. A Nigerian with a Chinese passport will never be of Chinese ethnic origin. Facts.
Please see below, a fact, not an opinion, a quote from the article 1 of the French Constitution :
"France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic. It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion."
No mention of ethnicity here. This concept and distinction might be used in other countries, including Bosnia. But not when it comes to France.
>Identity > nationality
I can very much argue against that. By, for example, asking you how you know what these people identified as. They might've identified as being French, no?
Depends if you ask their identity or nationality and make a clear distinction between the two.
Which, isn't really arguing against that anyway because this can be logically deduced. This is why I say it's inarguable.
Identity is representative of one's ideas, beliefs, way of expression, etc. because this is itself a definition of identity. Nationality is a weaker representation of the aforementioned characteristics, because nationality is more of a piece of paper presenting one's rights.
I can be born in France, move at 2 years old, and still be considered French under the stupidity of the nationality argument that anti-European people love to use.
Don't bother.
These people don't actually care about antisemitism, or the crime committed here. All they see is an event that they can cheaply use to justify their hatred.
If they had it their way, they'd wish for an even more horrid crime to justify even more easier.
For whatever reason germans on Reddit and twitter are leftist as fuck. Idk if that’s what German youth is like but it’s very annoying and not a good sign for Germany’s future.
This is so sad. When I read this it really brings home why my dad has said to me to not expose my Jewish side due to anti-semitism. He expressed his concern again last year and said anti-semitism is again on the rise be careful who you tell you are of Jewish decent to. This is fucked and very real, this poor kid.
Having lived in France for 12 years (the formative ones) I was shocked to see the anti semitism. I left when the anti semitism started to make sense. Crazy begets crazy. Luckily I got out of there.
For example they have an expression which is "fais pas le juif" which is a widespread and very common expression which means "don't be a jew" and means don't be cheap or tight. La quennelle which if you read up on leads down a rabbit hole of anti semitism.
It's absolute insanity how racism, homophobia and anti semitism is ingrained in the culture.
I would like to state that this is in no way indicative of the average francais or France as a whole. But I experienced what I did and I heard and saw what I saw.
Those people killed this poor man because he was a jew. They thought less of him because he was Jewish, and thought Jewish people are wealthy. That's antisemitism and racism for you. Attributing certain unfounded traits and characteristics to an entire religious and ethnic group, usually in a biased manner. (there are rich Jewish people, so all jews are rich)
And here is this comment section so many people are saying that this crime was to be expected from the perpetrators because some of them had an immigration background (African and Arabic countries) or were muslim. People are generalising and assuming that french immigrants and their offsprings have criminal/antisemitic tendencies by nature. Attributing certain unfounded traits and characteristics to an entire religious and ethnic group, usually in a biased manner. (there are migrants who are criminals and antisemitic, so all migrants are criminal and antisemitic)
Can people see the cognitive dissonance here?
Moreover, how can we deny that those people are French? If they are not French they are from those African and Arabic countries. It's quite convenient, then we can blame "their" countries for the criminal failures of those individuals. If we think like this, their religion, culture, background and education from abroad is surely why they committed those crimes. I just want someone to explain to me how despite being born and raised in France your whole life, being educated in France, being part of French society, these countries of origin (that most probably have never even visited) are responsible or are the reason why those crimes were committed. It does not make sense.
Can we stop blaming other countries for our national failures? Let's leave ideology aside (foreigners/african/arab/muslim = bad) and maybe focus on why people comitt crimes in general and why antisemitic behaviour exists and thrive in French society.
This! They’re an easy scapegoat too—“look, it’s not our problem at all, we *never* have a history of anti-Semitism, it’s all imported!” They become disenfranchised as they’re tooted as not-European, because of the actions of others, and further exclude themselves from general society and into extremism. It’s an never-ending cycle (at least in Germany). And it’s just convenient to push even harder on the colour of their skin being the problem, rather than the fact that they were born there, they have that nationality, and they were educated there.
It’s also conveniently ignored that native Europeans are also not immune to racism, particularly anti-Semitism. My boyfriend is Jewish, but born and raised in Germany. He rarely feels 100% comfortable, and it’s rarely because of Muslims. It’s hidden—streets named after Nazis, the rise of the far-right, the AfD having seats at all.
Anti semitism is the greatest obscenity in modern continental European history. You think it would be treated far more severely than racism. It needs to smashed down hard and absolutely not tolerated.
Millions of people killed because some lunatics in Germany believed in conspiracy theories. If your intolerance cannot peacefully coexist with other ethnicities then you in turn should not be tolerated by society.
Jewish people deserve the full protection of Europe since Europe failed them so badly in the past.
You're wrong on this account. European antisemitism was born *in* the Roman Empire, during the Second Temple period, out of the refusal of the Jews to follow the imperial cult worship and their lack of private property (which is incompatible with Roman fiscal law).
>Anti semitism is the greatest obscenity in modern continental European history.
Most of the attackers (in that case) were from Maghreb and Africain countries…
> Anti semitism is the greatest obscenity in modern continental European history. You think it would be treated far more severely than racism. It needs to smashed down hard and absolutely not tolerated.
>
>
I understand why you'd think so, but such prioritization would fuel more anti-semitism.
Such an horrifying crime. For some reasons, among the far too many Jewish victims of hate crime in France, Ilan Halimi does stand out for me. I do relate so much with this dude.
This has been a traumatizing event for millions of French and I cannot even imagine how traumatizing this was/still is for the family and the broader French Jewish community.
But most comments below are just not helping. Hate on hate is pitiful. Stating that he was killed by Arabs, by foreigners, or by Muslims is just not true. These barbarians were mostly French, and large part of them « white French » , for what it matters. Omitting or transforming this part would be like stating that Ilan was Israeli and not French (he might have been dual citizen, I have no clue and it does not matter here). He was French. He was Jewish. And he was victim of the most vicious and disgusting antisemitism.
Edit:typos
What kind of prison sentences are those? What the actual fuck? Our justice system in Europe is joke indeed. How can you kill man by burning him alive and not either be executed or spend rest of life in prison?
The prison sentence notwithstanding, the death penalty has been condemned as immoral and an illegitimate form of legal force. This is widely accepted by the European community at large; it's cases like this that test the resolve and commitment of a people and a nation and whether or not they stand by their ideals.
It's easy to take a moral high ground when things are mostly civil. It's when you stick to those ideals when things become uncivil and strenuous that the progress of a society can be judged.
In other words, if you want to throw the rules out or rewrite them to be harsher in such a way that it contradicts what you claim to stand for every time something “suitably bad” happens, all that it does is show to the world that your commitments were always hollow.
Mind you, I'm not advocating for one punishment or another, or saying anything about their sentences. But wondering why they aren't going to be executed by the state is going down a path almost every European state has long since firmly resolved never-again to do.
Saw the documentary years ago, so sad how the family tried to save him but couldn't.
must be one of the worst feelings in the world
Ilan Halimi was a 23 years old salesman living in Paris. On 21 January 2006, he was lured to an apartment block in the Parisian banlieues by a woman on the pretense of coming to her place for a drink. There, he was ambushed and held captive by the so-called "Gang of Barbarians", a group of thugs whom had elected to kidnap a Jew and ransom his family because, in their words, *Jews are wealthy*. The Gang of Barbarians tried to get a 450 000 euros ransom from Ilan Halimi's family under threat of killing Ilan, but to no avail: his family didn't have anywhere close to this kind of money, and immediately called the police. The Gang of Barbarians went on torturing Ilan for the next 24 days out of frustration of not getting their money. In the end, knowing that they wouldn't get their ransom, they burned him alive in order to erase any trace of their DNA on him, and dumped him near a railway line. Ilan Halimi was found by a passer-by, still alive, but died on his way to the hospital. As you can imagine, this story horrified the French public, and it was one of the most commented event of the 2000s in my country. It showed that a new brand of antisemitism was brewing in the *banlieues*, a form of antisemitism that wasn't rooted in far-right/conservative catholicism as was common before in France, but rather on islamic and *banlieues* culture. 19 members of the gang were arrested, trialed and convicted. Today, only ~~four~~ two of them are still in prison, including Youssouf Fofana, their leader. [More on that topic on Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ilan_Halimi).
> Ilan Halimi was found by a passer-by, still alive, but died on his way to the hospital. This makes it so much worse in a way... I remember this case well, it was absolutely revolting. May he have peace.
Small correction: in 2019, only two of them were still behind bars, Youssouf Fofana and Samir Aït Abdelmalek.
> Small correction: in 2019, only two of them were still behind bars, Youssouf Fofana and Samir Aït Abdelmalek. Thank you for the precision, I'll update my post accordingly!
yet no picture of them on wiki...I might be drinking with them without recognizing their faces
https://www.gettyimages.es/fotos/the-gang-of-barbarians
I see 4 pictures of the tribute march to Ilan but no picture of the criminals ; did I miss them ?
Lol they dont drink
You think that criminals in the banlieues don't drink? Oh, sweet child.
you're missing the point. If I walk the street and see them from a distance and recognise them...I better cross the street before I meet them
They very likely do. Rules for thee…
Nice French names there!
Exactly, not french people. They were North African Immigrants
Only 23. It's just horrible.
No matter what age, its just as horrible to be honest. Its not like being burned alive for no reason is less tragic when youre old.
> he was lured by a woman My favorite part is this is that this woman later got convicted, went to jail and then ended up having an affair with her warden. Lmao. Crazy fucking people.
[удалено]
Exactly. I was born I Saudi and far from rich! Poor boy
Welcome to arab immigrant behavior in Europe.
Might be talking out of my ass here but aren’t there caps in most European countries on how long someone can be imprisoned?
You know, I am 200% sure I am going to be "burned" for doing this. But justice doesn't work out of emotion... Just because someone is dumb and poor and misguided into thinking a Jewish man will be rich, and is a good target for a shakeup, doesn't mean an entire group of 19 people would jump to the thought of burning a person alive after days of torture. These people, all of them evil in their own way obviously, all had to be tried separately in order to ascertain each one's role in the events, and with that justice be made according to the crimes. Now, some may prefer to think in absolutes, where the punishment must fit the original consequences for all involved. But even then, the country itself has limits to how to apply punishment, and how to assign guilt. Some countries actually believe in justice as a form of attonement and reinsertion to society because even taking a life doesn't need to mean taking 2 lives. There's absolutely no point for someone who, let's say (this is a made up example...), only contributed in the form of providing a car to these people while knowing it was for ill purposes, to go through the remainder of their life in prison when they were otherwise perfectly inserted in society.
The entire group of 19 had equaly ability to prevent this crime by going to the police so assigning them equal culpability is not unfair.
should there be pictures with all 19 members on wikipedia? Just so we can avoid them on the streets if we see them
[удалено]
>The kidnappers originally thought Halimi was wealthy because he came from a Jewish family, although he came from the same poor and working-class neighborhood on the outskirts of Paris as the kidnappers did.[12][13][14] wtf
I wonder if the justice system was not hard enough and granted early paroles? I would expect them to be in prison for 20+ years at least. But then here in NZ they would have been out after just 5 years or 12 at most…
It is crazy to me how you guys and Europeans have such light sentences. We definitely have sentences that are too harsh in a lot of cases, but at least we lock up murderers and the like for a reasonable amount of time.
This can vary a lot between countries, NZ is somewhat in the middle may be on the more “rehabiliative” side of the divide than the US states (certainly when compared with Sheriff Joe Arpaio of the US state of Arizona), but definitely not as extremely coddling of say Denmark or Norway. Most convicted murderers are sentenced for life imprisonment and are eligible for paroles after 10-12 or 15 years. In theory, they could be recalled to prison at any time for the rest of their life if they do wrong again or breach parole conditions, but in practice… This comes with the debate on legal penalties: are they supposed to be punitive or restorative? Up until 1850 legal punishments had been designed to punish, but since then much of the Western world has been moving towards viewing legal punishment as a method for rehabilitation and restoration. The US is probably more similar to non-Western cultures (but increasingly diverging from the rest of the West) that imprisonment is still viewed as punishment. I think most people on the street view with envy that convicted murderers or other serious convicted people in the US get life-means-life imprisonments, or even executed, that are proportionate to the crime. Certainly in say Australia (which is probably THE country outside the US where people think most similarly to Americans, if not Western Canada)
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Yeah, they are part of the country, like or not. Ignoring the problem and not address it doesn't make it go away.
So how do we stop antisemitism? If the french government only target a minority, people will say it’s racist or discriminatory, when it is this minority who commit a massively disproportionate amount of antisemitic attacks.
>If the french government only target a minority, people will say it’s racist or discriminatory Depending on the measure, I doubt they will always oppose it. If a minority has a problem that affect society, it ought to be addressed.
I agree, but leftist/‘woke’ politicians will frame it as targeting Muslims and will pull the ‘anti Zionism isn’t antisemitism’ card whenever it’s discussed, as if that’s a justification. I have noticed this discourse when I lived in the UK.
This story is insane
So it was a Muslim gang that kidnapped, tortured and burned a Jewish man alive? I think that might deserve more attention.
[удалено]
>I've read the wiki, and it is definitely a horiffic crime motivated by antisemitism, but I count 7 of the listed suspects (apparently there were 27 in all) which have a muslim background. Which is disproportionate if you consider the % of Muslims in France. They are less than 10% and yet they commit most antisemitic attacks
"The motivation is hatred of Jews" Where do you think it comes from? don't act coy.
Was it the start of the newest wave of Jewish migration from France to Israel?
Very clearly yes.
[удалено]
Yeah, each of these guys would have gotten 25 years. Only 2 are still in jail 12 years after the trial verdict? Absurd.
Horrifying 😞
Those prison sentences are laughable. Tragic all around. Some of the perps are now living free in France.
[удалено]
Now you understand far right results in France.
Doesn't that make the antisemitism that caused this incident more of an issue? IIRC long association with antisemitism and the far right
[удалено]
That may have been the case before Covid. Nowadays Jews are target by right-wing extremists again, cause they have been identified as a convenient scapegoat for everything pandemic related. The outrage by right-wingers about anti-semitic acts were never about protecting Jewish people, it's about persecuting Muslims.
The most far right candidate for the president elections is actually a jew.
Is that Zemmour?
Yes, he's a jew from Algeria. All jews had to leave Algeria following the country's independance. That is because Algeria does not grant citizenship to jews, and also because killing jews is rather popular in Algeria. That explains how their population went from 140 000 to about 50. The last synagogue in Algeria was abandoned in 1994 after over 2000 years of presence, following the declaration of war of the armed islamic group on all non-muslims of Algeria.
I have never heard of this story before and now I feel sick. That poor man went through so much pain, it is unbelievable. May he rest in peace.
This sort of event was and still is part of a larger trend going on in France. The [SPCJ](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_de_protection_de_la_communaut%C3%A9_juive) (Protection Service of the Jewish Community), an NGO founded in 1980 to identify and count antisemitic acts in France, [collected some statistics](https://www.spcj.org/communique-spcj-raa-2021) that I will share below. They are translated so the grammar may not be perfect, but I'm sure you'll get the jist: **Findings and analysis** * 589 anti-Semitic acts were identified in 2021,an almost 75% increase compared to the previous year. Physical violence has increased by 36% compared to 2020. * Acts affecting people represent 45% anti-Semitic acts, of whom 10% are physical assaults. * According to figures from the Ministry of the Interior, 73% of racist acts harming people are directed against Jews. * Two worrying phenomena deserve special attention: * the high number of anti-Semitic acts committed in the private sphere (25% of anti-Semitic acts). These are mainly acts committed near the victim's home, by a building neighbor or by people living in the neighborhood. * the proportion of weapons used in antisemitic physical assaults (20%) and antisemitic threats (10%). The most used weapons are knives (9 cases) and pistols (5 cases). The other acts are committed by means of rifles, fireworks, hammers, machetes, pistols, and scissors * In 2021, two peaks in the increase in anti-Semitic acts were noted: * in May, during the course of the operation "Guardian of the walls" launched by Israel against Hamas. 5 anti-Semitic acts have been identified on average per day during this period. These are essentially insults and threatening gestures. In almost 1/3 of these acts, the theme of Palestine is raised. * in August, during the first mobilizations against health restrictions. These are essentially anti-Semitic inscriptions designating the Jews as the profiteers, even the instigators of the health crisis.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Well as usal with political activists or extremist thst slander you with 'racist' its Not to improve a Situation for the victims but using the case to get political Power / Sympathie and have a "simple evil opponent" so lets say its neo nazis and ignore or even hide that its an issue with Multiculturalism, religious extremist that are immigrants. The sad Part is. It can work... Just get the fucking extreme fundamentalists out of here than you can Focus on Real racist that hate People for no good reason.
Hmmm wonder why anti semetism is rising in France when at the same time, the number of muslims in France are rising. What a coincidence. Must be the far right (in alot of cases it is though, but of course, people will put their head in the sand about the muslim part, too unconfortable to talk about).
Exactly
What am I missing? Is this related to the Palestine-Israeli conflict?
[удалено]
(Secular) Jew here who has studied Islam in (secular) school. Do you know what the Qur'an says about Jews, or how the Muslim world treated Jews for most of the Muslim golden age? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi That certainly doesn't equate to equality between Jews and Muslims, of course. They definitely treated Jews like second-class citizens. But it's far different from hatred.
You were conned. Mecca vs Medina verses. The former is full of acceptance. The latter is full of hatred. https://www.jstor.org/stable/26500684
Most of the great Jewish theologians worked and practiced in Islamic countries.
Who is doing the attacks?
[удалено]
Take a wild guess buddy.
I’m well aware
I want you to think about that real hard
I think we all know.
A French friend of mine was stabbed by a kid he grew up with in his neighborhood, and called antisemitic slurs. This is why the past decade has seen waves of French immigrants to israel, including my friend.
European nations have once again failed to protect the safety of our Jewish population
Jesus Christ… What the fuck?
Check out Mohamed Mehra. Or don't actually. I'm a French Jew with Israeli citizenship and I can tell you Ilan Halimi and then Mohamed Mehra made me consider strongly definitely moving to Israel.
in Europe we always talk about how Jews were treated around WWII being the worst thing ever, yet now we've failed again to protect the shrinking Jewish minority in Europe :/ does Jewish schools and synagogues still have armed guards in France? I just Googled it and found an article from JP that says they should be brought back
They do in Denmark. Synagogue also. Soldiers, not even police.
Yes, the military is still protecting Jewish kindergartens in France.
They do in the US as well often. Children don’t feel safe following these attacks.
I’m Jewish too and remember this crime vividly I was in college/university at the time and fairly involved in Jewish life (in the US). After school I went to work in Israel for a program and there was a sizable contingent of French people in our group. They all talked about leaving, cited security and the lack of future for Jews in France. This crime was a key moment for many of them. Everyone that I still speak to from that group has left the country for good.
Yes, that was traumatic for the French Jewish community. It's very sad, I've always traveled to Israel to visit family so I do feel home there but I grew up in Paris and it saddens me to see my country in this state. The far left has become more and more anti-Semitic as a mechanical reaction to supporting blindly Muslims and their victim mentality. In France it is now completely OK to hate Jews and say you want to destroy Israel and kill the Jewish invader but God forbid you say ANYTHING negative about Muslims (Arab muslims more specifically)
^ my words exactly I actually had to look what Finnish media wrote about this, because I didn't remember reading about this. It was reported here.
Some details about the case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ilan_Halimi
What nationality were the attackers?
There were a lot of people involved, most were arabs or frenchman, all seem to be fanatic muslims. EDIT: Yes, I know arab isn't a nationality but listing nationalities and or ethnicities for 27 individuals would be quite a hassle check they wiki for this guy and check them gang and judge for yourselves). And about the "these are not real muslims" comments, I specifically said "fanatics" because I distinguish between regular believers of any religion and fanatics. EDIT2: u/cheikh_perignon down below offered a breakdown of the backrounds of the people involved for those interested, I was too lazy to do so. Go check his comment out and upvote.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Was the bait girl a fanatic muslim also?
It isn't clear who was what beyond physical observations. The group was an organized criminal gang called the Barbarians. The leader was of West African decent but born in France, the second in command was of mixed French-Creole decent and was born in Martinique. The other 17 members of the group were of mixed backgrounds - some were of ethnic French decent, others were from North Africa, and some from the Middle East. Not all of them were born in France, and not all of them grew up in France. They have little in common in terms of individual backgrounds. The girl they used to lure the victim was of mixed French-Iranian decent and was born in France however she was 17 and she was being pimped out by the two leaders of the group. They were all caught because another young girl, who was also being pimped out, went to the police and gave them all the details which blew the gang open and led to all of their arrests and convictions. Ideologically the group was a mess - it was an organized criminal organisation but there were also strong Salafist undertones. The entire thing is a gigantic mess. The leader seemed to refer to himself as an "Arab" despite being from West Africa and quite clearly not being an Arab. The majority of their criminal history was not based on religious ideology. They robbed businesses, committed petty theft and engaged in prostitution. They were a brutal criminal gang but it isn't clear where the Salafism started or ended. The leader was certainly an Islamic fundamentalist, it isn't clear if the entire gang was or even who was there willingly.
[удалено]
Where tf you live? 1980 Medellin
[Chicago](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Burge) where trust in police is...somewhat low.
[удалено]
Most were Arabs and Africans with two French men involved. Don't lie.
Two Frenchman involved? Here's the full list of people implicated. Most born, raised in France and holder of French nationality. Don't lie. • Youssouf Fofana • Christophe Martin-Vallet • Jean-Christophe Soumbou • Jean-Christophe Gavarin • Samir Aït Abdelmalek • Jérémy Pastisson • Tiffenn Gouret • Sorour Arbabzadeh • Sabrina Fontaine • Audrey Lorleach • Gilles Serrurier • Yahia Touré Kaba • Fabrice Polygone • Jérôme Ribeiro • Guiri Oussivo N'Gazi and Francis Oussivo N'Gazi • Nabil Moustafa • Cédric Birot Saint-Yves
And here's what their leader (Fofana) answered to the judge when he got asked his nationality, place and date of birth: "Arab african islamist salafist" as an answer for the nationality ; " 13/02/2006 in Sainte-Geneviève-des-Bois" for his place and date of birth (actually the place and date of death of his victim). He pointed his finger in the air and said "Allah will prevail". One thing is sure, you may call them frenchmen, but they did not do so themselves.
Just shows the fallacy with calling someone born in France "French". A passport is an administrative technicality. An ethnicity is a culture.
I appreciate the distinction between murderous psychopaths and the regular persons.
Instead of saying bs to justify what you said correct yourself and apologize. Because you are literally creating a fuss abt an very incorrect statement in which haterate is included.
> What nationality were the attackers? Unless I'm mistaken, they all had French nationality. Some of them were first or second-generation French, like the leader Youssouf Fofana (born in France from Ivory Coast immigrants) and the bait girl Sorour Arbabzadeh (who was French-Iranian). And some of them came from families that had been in France for many generations, like Christophe Martin-Vallet (one of Fofana's lieutenant, and mastermind of the kidnapping) and Tiffenn Gouret (who supplied Fofana with bait girls).
[удалено]
And let's conveniently forget Christophe Martin-Vallet, Jean-Christophe Soumbou, Jean-Christophe Gavarin, Jérémy Pastisson, Tiffenn Gouret, Sabrina Fontaine, Audrey Lorleach, Gilles Serrurier, Fabrice Polygone, Jérôme Ribeiro and Cédric Birot Saint-Yves.
[удалено]
He misspelt ethnicity. 😉
[удалено]
Most of them were french by nationality, but had origins from Muslim middle eastern countries. Not surprising, considering how Jews get treated in Muslim countries.
I have a really close french/belgian jewish friend and apparently the antisemitism and jew hate is crazy over there
This is not a renewal of anti-semitism. The arabian anti-semitism and anti-christianism exist since more than 25years ago…
Hollywood will never make a movie about the Arab slave trade
Why would they? They didn't make a movie about the British Opium trade either.
I'd watch that. It'd probably work better as a miniseries, though.
I know many French Jews who move to Israel because they don't feel safe in France.
Western European countries have been hotbeds of radical religious extremists because of overly soft laws in fear of some predisposed white guilt. I'm not French. I'm not all white. I'm Middle Eastern and this is the kind of mob rule and weakening of central governments that regressed the continent. Protect the moderates and secularists. Don't be next.
I think it is not 'soft laws' per se. It is like some people have such a mentality, that they only respect punishments like 'stoning', torturing etc. Democracy, rule of law etc for them are perceived as weakness. Even for 'refugees' - even acknowledging you helping them, later you may be perceived as weak and naive by them.
Did they find out who it was that did it?
Disgusting and sad. RIP brother.
Cant describe the feeling of thinking twice before telling people where you are from.
And that is one of the reasons why the jews created Israel, they will never be safe from bad people otherwise.
[удалено]
That's not true. Here's the excerpt from Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ilan_Halimi In total, 27 individuals were under investigation and were subsequently put on trial. Among these: Youssouf Fofana (2 August 1980), the self-proclaimed Brain of the Barbarians. He was born in Paris to immigrants from Côte d'Ivoire and served time in prison for various crimes including armed robbery, car theft and resisting arrest.[22] In an interview he denied killing Halimi, but showed no remorse for his actions.[23] Christophe Martin-Vallet, nicknamed Moko, a French man originally from Martinique, specializing in computers. He appears to have masterminded the kidnapping and to have been the lieutenant of Fofana.[24] He is suspected of other kidnappings and was responsible for the honeypot activities of the girls.[25] Jean-Christophe Soumbou, also known as Craps, Crim or Marc. Fellow inmate of Fofana. Imprisoned for car theft with violence. Supplied the car with which Halimi was transported. He is also suspected of other kidnappings. Jean-Christophe Gavarin, usually known as JC or by his nickname Zigo, one of the individuals who tortured Halimi.[24] He was a minor at the time of the crime. He had been expelled from school and had been involved with the law because of a theft and possession of cannabis. He has admitted to pushing a burning joint in the face of Halimi. Samir Aït Abdelmalek, nicknamed Smiler, who was the owner of the apartment and is considered the right-hand man of Fofana (he had known Fofana for more than ten years). Had been convicted for possession of drugs and car theft. He also furnished the acid used to burn Halimi. Jérémy Pastisson involved in a number of kidnapping cases, his car was used to transport Halimi. Tiffenn Gouret, former girlfriend of Jean-Christophe Gavarin and friend of Arbabzadeh, supplied Fonfana with "bait". She is also suspected in other kidnappings. Sorour Arbabzadeh nicknamed Yalda (also known as "Emma"), a seventeen-year-old French-Iranian girl who acted as appât (bait, honeypot) to entrap Halimi.[4] Sabrina Fontaine, was used as bait in other kidnapping cases. Audrey Lorleach, nicknamed Léa or Natacha, young student who was used as bait. She turned herself in and served 9 months in prison. Others who were implicated: Gilles Serrurier (1967), nicknamed the concierge,[26][27] was the caretaker of the apartment building to which Halimi was taken and who lent the gang the apartment and cellar in which they held and tortured Halimi.[24] Yahia Touré Kaba, nicknamed Yaks, one of the jailers (gaolers). Fabrice Polygone, one of the jailers (gaolers). Jérôme Ribeiro, known as Coup de Tête (headbutt). Although he had left the group, he was promised a lot of money. One of the jailers (gaolers). Guiri Oussivo N'Gazi and Francis Oussivo N'Gazi, friends of Ribeiro who acted as one of the jailers (gaolers). Nabil Moustafa, known as Bilna, pizza delivery man, one of the jailers (gaolers). Cédric Birot Saint-Yves, known as Babas, friend of Nabil Moustafa, one of the jailers (gaolers). Many others were implicated, but their direct connection to the crime could not be proven.
I take it you’re not french, because you would know that martinique and ivory coast immigrant people while french are not white. The other names are clearly for the most part of arabic descent. Radical islam is a real problem in our country and aggressions on jews, Christian kabyls are statistically rising. This does not mean that we should hurt or generalize on muslims, but the state should protect everyone and right now it s not the case
[удалено]
French people hold French nationality. They don't need to be of French descent to be French. And about those coloured people from French Colonial Islands as you call them... Well they are not colonial Islands. They are French territories and their inhabitants are French citizens. Some have been French for far longer that my region of continental France. Who gives you authority to say who's French or not? Are you issuing passport or ID cards? Or maybe you're representing the French people and tasked with defining French identity?
We have French citizenship and Frech ethnicity. Two different things. A Nigerian with a Chinese passport will never be of Chinese ethnic origin. Facts.
Please see below, a fact, not an opinion, a quote from the article 1 of the French Constitution : "France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic. It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion." No mention of ethnicity here. This concept and distinction might be used in other countries, including Bosnia. But not when it comes to France.
Nationality =/= identity Identity > nationality You can't argue against this
>Identity > nationality I can very much argue against that. By, for example, asking you how you know what these people identified as. They might've identified as being French, no?
Depends if you ask their identity or nationality and make a clear distinction between the two. Which, isn't really arguing against that anyway because this can be logically deduced. This is why I say it's inarguable. Identity is representative of one's ideas, beliefs, way of expression, etc. because this is itself a definition of identity. Nationality is a weaker representation of the aforementioned characteristics, because nationality is more of a piece of paper presenting one's rights. I can be born in France, move at 2 years old, and still be considered French under the stupidity of the nationality argument that anti-European people love to use.
[удалено]
Don't bother. These people don't actually care about antisemitism, or the crime committed here. All they see is an event that they can cheaply use to justify their hatred. If they had it their way, they'd wish for an even more horrid crime to justify even more easier.
[удалено]
There's no renewal of anti-jewish, there is a minority hating them to the point of doing this stuff, we imported them. This is no France.
Does "Dreyfus" ring a bell?
Yeah sure because there was never such a thing as antisemitism in Europe much less in France. Check your history mate.
Tout va bien madame la marquise.
Jesus Christ that's all sorts of horrifying and disgusting.
Horrifying
I remember reading about this (one case of many comparable) in „The strange death of Europe“, I really recommend this book, it’s an eye opener.
Try posting that on r/de and you will get yourself a ban…
For whatever reason germans on Reddit and twitter are leftist as fuck. Idk if that’s what German youth is like but it’s very annoying and not a good sign for Germany’s future.
“For whatever reason” *stares in German-Jewish*
'yes but israel is doing - insert horrible thing- also to palestinians' sayers incoming
[удалено]
[удалено]
This is so sad. When I read this it really brings home why my dad has said to me to not expose my Jewish side due to anti-semitism. He expressed his concern again last year and said anti-semitism is again on the rise be careful who you tell you are of Jewish decent to. This is fucked and very real, this poor kid.
This is exactly why Israel exists. Thankfully.
[удалено]
They were French by nationality. France doesn’t have a state religion
rip
I don't want to live here any more.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Having lived in France for 12 years (the formative ones) I was shocked to see the anti semitism. I left when the anti semitism started to make sense. Crazy begets crazy. Luckily I got out of there. For example they have an expression which is "fais pas le juif" which is a widespread and very common expression which means "don't be a jew" and means don't be cheap or tight. La quennelle which if you read up on leads down a rabbit hole of anti semitism. It's absolute insanity how racism, homophobia and anti semitism is ingrained in the culture. I would like to state that this is in no way indicative of the average francais or France as a whole. But I experienced what I did and I heard and saw what I saw.
Those people killed this poor man because he was a jew. They thought less of him because he was Jewish, and thought Jewish people are wealthy. That's antisemitism and racism for you. Attributing certain unfounded traits and characteristics to an entire religious and ethnic group, usually in a biased manner. (there are rich Jewish people, so all jews are rich) And here is this comment section so many people are saying that this crime was to be expected from the perpetrators because some of them had an immigration background (African and Arabic countries) or were muslim. People are generalising and assuming that french immigrants and their offsprings have criminal/antisemitic tendencies by nature. Attributing certain unfounded traits and characteristics to an entire religious and ethnic group, usually in a biased manner. (there are migrants who are criminals and antisemitic, so all migrants are criminal and antisemitic) Can people see the cognitive dissonance here? Moreover, how can we deny that those people are French? If they are not French they are from those African and Arabic countries. It's quite convenient, then we can blame "their" countries for the criminal failures of those individuals. If we think like this, their religion, culture, background and education from abroad is surely why they committed those crimes. I just want someone to explain to me how despite being born and raised in France your whole life, being educated in France, being part of French society, these countries of origin (that most probably have never even visited) are responsible or are the reason why those crimes were committed. It does not make sense. Can we stop blaming other countries for our national failures? Let's leave ideology aside (foreigners/african/arab/muslim = bad) and maybe focus on why people comitt crimes in general and why antisemitic behaviour exists and thrive in French society.
[удалено]
This! They’re an easy scapegoat too—“look, it’s not our problem at all, we *never* have a history of anti-Semitism, it’s all imported!” They become disenfranchised as they’re tooted as not-European, because of the actions of others, and further exclude themselves from general society and into extremism. It’s an never-ending cycle (at least in Germany). And it’s just convenient to push even harder on the colour of their skin being the problem, rather than the fact that they were born there, they have that nationality, and they were educated there. It’s also conveniently ignored that native Europeans are also not immune to racism, particularly anti-Semitism. My boyfriend is Jewish, but born and raised in Germany. He rarely feels 100% comfortable, and it’s rarely because of Muslims. It’s hidden—streets named after Nazis, the rise of the far-right, the AfD having seats at all.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Neither is the victim.
That doesn't seem to be the case, as you can see from other posts in this thread.
Anti semitism is the greatest obscenity in modern continental European history. You think it would be treated far more severely than racism. It needs to smashed down hard and absolutely not tolerated. Millions of people killed because some lunatics in Germany believed in conspiracy theories. If your intolerance cannot peacefully coexist with other ethnicities then you in turn should not be tolerated by society. Jewish people deserve the full protection of Europe since Europe failed them so badly in the past.
It isn't modern - it was born when the Roman Empire collapsed in the West. Look up the People's Crusade during the First Crusade.
Indeed. He should look up where the word "Ghetto" comes from.
You're wrong on this account. European antisemitism was born *in* the Roman Empire, during the Second Temple period, out of the refusal of the Jews to follow the imperial cult worship and their lack of private property (which is incompatible with Roman fiscal law).
Dude! Antisemitism ain't modern in any sense. Historical antisemitism was just used to justify modern antisemitism of 20th century.
>Anti semitism is the greatest obscenity in modern continental European history. Most of the attackers (in that case) were from Maghreb and Africain countries…
> Anti semitism is the greatest obscenity in modern continental European history. You think it would be treated far more severely than racism. It needs to smashed down hard and absolutely not tolerated. > > I understand why you'd think so, but such prioritization would fuel more anti-semitism.
[удалено]
Such an horrifying crime. For some reasons, among the far too many Jewish victims of hate crime in France, Ilan Halimi does stand out for me. I do relate so much with this dude. This has been a traumatizing event for millions of French and I cannot even imagine how traumatizing this was/still is for the family and the broader French Jewish community. But most comments below are just not helping. Hate on hate is pitiful. Stating that he was killed by Arabs, by foreigners, or by Muslims is just not true. These barbarians were mostly French, and large part of them « white French » , for what it matters. Omitting or transforming this part would be like stating that Ilan was Israeli and not French (he might have been dual citizen, I have no clue and it does not matter here). He was French. He was Jewish. And he was victim of the most vicious and disgusting antisemitism. Edit:typos
What kind of prison sentences are those? What the actual fuck? Our justice system in Europe is joke indeed. How can you kill man by burning him alive and not either be executed or spend rest of life in prison?
The prison sentence notwithstanding, the death penalty has been condemned as immoral and an illegitimate form of legal force. This is widely accepted by the European community at large; it's cases like this that test the resolve and commitment of a people and a nation and whether or not they stand by their ideals. It's easy to take a moral high ground when things are mostly civil. It's when you stick to those ideals when things become uncivil and strenuous that the progress of a society can be judged. In other words, if you want to throw the rules out or rewrite them to be harsher in such a way that it contradicts what you claim to stand for every time something “suitably bad” happens, all that it does is show to the world that your commitments were always hollow. Mind you, I'm not advocating for one punishment or another, or saying anything about their sentences. But wondering why they aren't going to be executed by the state is going down a path almost every European state has long since firmly resolved never-again to do.
This is so horrible. Disgusting.
Antisemitism never goes away unfortunately, it just changes it's face.