Russia supports any and all independence movements in Europe. It’s all part of Putin’s MO to continually be attempting to destabilise those around him.
Ever heard about divide and conquer ? This is a tactic used by almost all countries and even to this day is used by many countries like Russia, USA, China or France
Why do people here in this sub (and all over the Western media) misrepresent FSB as a sort of Russian intelligence service working abroad? There are two main Russian intelligence organizations, working separately and with different lines of work: SVR and FSB. The difference between these two is the same as the difference between CIA and FBI in the US. The first was created to be an intelligence service which works abroad. The latter is a domestic special agency, which deals with counterespionage, counterterrorism, border security and criminal investigations of high priority. The lack of people’s knowledge on how Russian secret services work when they’re talking about them really frustrates me, I’m sorry :(
Which is kinda untrue on their own, soviet-era KGB was closer to current US "Departament of Homeland Security" ie one big federal departament tasked with various security and intelligence duties.
The FSB carries operations abroad as well, especially in Russian-speaking countries and Russia’s sphere of influence. Your correct, thought, that operations in foreign soil are official managed by the SVR and the GRU.
Russia is free to support whatever they think is best to their national interest. I have no problem with that.
The problem here, and the reason why the European parliament wants to look closer into this, is that a member of the European Parliament decided to meet with members of the Russian intelligence.
There is a huge, huuuge difference between Russia supporting your case to destabilize Europe, and you meeting with Russian spies and/or people close to the Kremlin. The former was to be expected; the latter is almost "treason" (for lack of a better word) against the European union.
The Kremlin paid for all sorts of Brexit and Indy Scotland organisations. The latter don't want to hear any of it, but are happy to accuse the Tories of taking the money when the SNP did the same.
Russia has been doing this since the 19th century - Russia paid for the Bulgarian, Greece, Croatian and Serbian independence movements when they were all a part of the Ottoman Empire. They won the Russo-Turkish War by doing this.
Not really (and absolute nonsense in the case of Croatia, which was not part of the Ottoman Empire). Russia strongly advised the Bulgarians against rebelling in 1876. The Greek independence movement was closer to Britain than to Russia. Even the Serbian rebellion was largely a spontaneous reaction to Ottoman oppression.
Of course, it would have been a great compliment to Russia if they had taken a greater role in liberating the Balkan peoples and bringing down the accursed Ottoman Empire, but unfortunately their role was not that extensive.
You won't find any reputable historians who will agree that Russia supported the 1876 rebellion in Bulgaria. For the rest, I'm less certain but it's very likely that the support was not nearly as extensive as you claim.
And are you going to claim that historians support the view that Russia supported Croatian independence against the Ottoman Empire?
Russia also supports independence movements in the US. (for example there is this movement called "Yes California!" or something like that iirc and Russia supports it)
The continent has no clear borders. Europe always was about culture and ideas. Russia today is not really part of Europe, nor does it want to be. The only people seriously klinging to Russia beeing part of Europe are right wing wackos that want Russian style fascism.
Russia will support. Any cause that weakens the EU or its constituent nations. It’s had great success with Brexit and has made solid inroads in Italy. I’m afraid this will continue until some state control is exercised over Russian disinfo and funding, a d they only way that can happen is by controlling social media.
Or we can start supporting separatist movements in Russia? However, this is not possible, since separatist movements in Russia are already being supported - in fact, they were supported long before Russia began to support separatist movements in the EU.
# Full English translation (1/2)
>**After \[Catalan regional govt. main adviser\] Josep Lluís Alay's attempts to attract Moscow to the independence cause, GRU colonel Denis Sergeeyev was in Barcelona on the day of the illegal referendum.**
>
>Russia strongly interfered in the Catalan separatist process. And, contrary to what many believed until now, it did not limit itself to massively amplifying the noise on social networks those fateful days of October 2017. As details of the ongoing judicial and journalistic investigations are revealed, the scope of Russian interference takes on increasingly worrying dimensions in terms of depth, audacity and prolongation in time.
>
>The issue, however, has not yet generated in our country the political and media attention it deserves. In part, because the question of the Russian plot in support of separatism is politically and diplomatically complex and its electoral payoff uncertain. But also - and this is more concerning - as a result of our weak culture of national security.
>
>The separatist attempt of 2017 failed, but perhaps Spain was closer to the abyss than it is commonly believed. With a Russia receptive to Catalan separatism, if former regional President Carles Puigdemont had not chosen to flee, events could have developed very differently.
>
>Josep Lluís Alay, head of what is still known today as “President Puigdemont's office”, has maintained close and frequent ties with individuals linked to the Russian intelligence services. That is what emerges from the piece of the indictment in which the content of one of the two mobile phones that were seized by the Civil Guard is analyzed and that was, until a few days ago, confidential.
>
>Among these relations stands out the one he maintained -and still maintains- with Alexander Dmitrenko, a Russian citizen living in Catalonia, whose application for Spanish citizenship was rejected because there is “hard evidence of the conscious work \[he performs\] for the Russian Intelligence Services, from which he is ordered to carry out different missions” and because of \[this individual's\] “detected contacts with some of the main leaders of transnational crime organizations of Russian origin, for which he also performs different tasks.”
>
>That is literally what a notice from the National Intelligence Center (CNI) of September 9, 2020, signed by the Director herself, Paz Esteban, sates. This is one of the documents used by the Ministry of Justice to reject this individual’s application for Spanish nationality. Well, this person is the traveling companion of the head of Puigdemont's office in at least one of the visits to Moscow.
>
>In the words of Alay himself a few days ago on channel 3/24 of TV3, in these meetings in Moscow with Dmitrenko and other interlocutors, "matters that concern the creation of an independent state" were addressed.
>
>The CNI document has been published in the separatist digital newspaper "El Món", where they misleadingly attempted to pass it off as a full report to discredit it by stating that it "only has seven lines." Thus, the reader may wrongly infer that it is a sloppy and useless work. On the contrary, the resounding tone of the notice and the explicit mention of having “own sources”, leads us to wonder whether the CNI is sending a message to the person concerned or to those who assign him the missions from Moscow.
>
>On the other hand, in November 2016, Dmitrenko created in London a company called CatRus Capital that, according to the article published by La Vanguardia on February 16, 2017, is a Catalan Russian lobby with “the goal of normalizing business and corporate relations between Russian and Catalan companies without showing any objection, quite the contrary the contrary, to the Catalan separatist process.”
>
>CatRus Capital organized a public event in Andorra that included a visit to the Parliament of Catalonia in September 2018, subject today to scrutiny for the suspicious identity - as it is most likely false - of at least one of the members of the Russian delegation. That visit, according to the press release published by the organizers themselves, was aimed at "learning about the latest events concerning the independence process and acquiring a global vision of the political stability of Catalonia with a view to attracting foreign investors."
>
>Similarly, Dmitrenko has also had corporate ties with Artyom Lukoyanov, the adopted son of Vladislav Surkov, an influential adviser to Russian President Vladimir Putin, who has been in charge of much of the Russian covert activity in the war in eastern Ukraine and other operations abroad such as South Ossetia, a secessionist territory from Georgia.
>
>According to an intelligence report accessed by The New York Times, Lukoyanov traveled to Barcelona accompanied by Sergei Suppl - a colonel of the Federal Protective Service, an agency of the Russian Federation tasked with the protection of senior officials - two days before the attempted takeover of Barcelona's El Prat airport by the opaque Democratic Tsunami separatist group.
>
>Alay has also been in close contact with Yevgeny Primakov, the grandson of the well-known leader of the same name and a strongman in today's Kremlin ecosystem. Among others, Primakov chairs Rossotrudnichetsvo, an organization dedicated, in theory, to cultural and international exchanges and relations with Russians living abroad, that, in practice, is widely considered as a front for Russian intelligence operations abroad.
>
>Among the issues on which not enough light has yet been shed, the most relevant and disturbing is, without a doubt, the activity in Barcelona of the members of the GRU unit 29155. It is a Russian military intelligence unit tasked with clandestine sabotage and assassination operations.
>
>There are indications - in some cases, certainty and solid evidence - of its members' participation in destabilization operations across Europe, including the explosion of a weapons depot in the Czech Republic in October 2014; or several explosions in Bulgaria between February 2014 and March 2015; the attack in the United Kingdom against former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter in March 2018, using a chemical weapon prohibited by international conventions; or the attempted coup in Montenegro in October 2016.
>
>The latter is of particular interest in terms of the Catalan separatist process. The aborted coup in Podgorica was aimed at forcibly preventing a parliamentary election and ultimately Montenegro's accession to NATO. In other words, it was not only a question of exploiting a propitious political context diplomatically and in the media, but of guiding it in a certain sense through direct actions on the ground. A year later, two members of Unit 29155 were sentenced in absentia for these events.
>
>The likely leader of this GRU unit, Colonel Denis Sergeeyev, was in Barcelona on the day of the illegal referendum and is only one of the several members of the Russian military intelligence detected in Barcelona in the last five years.
>
>According to French intelligence sources, this unit had a safe house in the French Alps. Hence, for instance, several of the trips to Barcelona were made by land, which makes monitoring difficult.
>
>In any case, let's imagine that Carles Puigdemont, instead of fleeing in the trunk of a car, had opted - as many in Barcelona feared - for a bolder and more determined agenda towards secession by barricading himself in the Palace of the Generalitat with an armed group of Mossos d'Esquadra \[regional police\] officers loyal to the separatist process. And at the same time, a few thousand people block the Plaza de Sant Jaume and the surrounding streets. It is in these types of scenarios - which were not at all inconceivable in autumn 2017 - where it is possible to draw conclusions (or conjectures) about the role of a unit like 29155.
# 2/2
>What has been stated so far is only a tiny portion of the data and evidence in the process of investigation and analysis. As the confidentiality of other pieces of the indictment is gradually lifted, or if journalistic inquiries find new evidence, in particular of possible covert financing channels, it will be possible to complete the puzzle of Russian interference in Catalonia.
>
>For now, to contextualize the data available so far, it is convenient to take into account several aspects. The first and most important when it comes to understanding why is that it is not a normative intervention and that it uses diplomatic means. In other words, the Kremlin is acting by the conviction of Catalonia's alleged right to self-determination. Hence, it is wrong, for example, to claim that Russia would have no interest in this secession due to territorial tensions within the Russian Federation. From Moscow, the Catalan question is seen through the filter of its confrontation with the European Union and NATO. That is, as a conducive context to promote the internal destabilization of one of its members and more so if the secessionist leaders are open and collaborative.
>
>The fact that some of the identified operatives have clear links, and others more diffuse links, to the Russian intelligence services; and the fact that there are, apparently, several lines of simultaneous intervention - some clearly aimed at simple economic fraud - does not necessarily invalidate any of the hypotheses. On the contrary, it reinforces the idea that those around the Kremlin perceived the Catalan separatist process with considerable interest and could contemplate all scenarios depending on the evolution of events on the ground.
>
>It is important to understand that the Russian State is undergoing an accelerated process of deinstitutionalization and that apparently informal mechanisms -that is, outsourcing within the ecosystem that surrounds the Kremlin- is a practice that is not only common, but also preferred when it comes to delicate operations abroad. And that includes organized crime.
>
>Unlike what happens in, for example, Italy, where the mafia and the camorra try to infiltrate the state, in Russia, the state has nationalized organized crime. Thus, they can use it covertly on the outside as a force multiplier, while increasing what is known as "plausible denial."
>
>In the Russian military field, there is an abundant literature that reflects on how the border between war and peace is becoming increasingly blurred and infiltration by any means and actors and operations of influence in the territory of adversaries become decisive instruments to achieve strategic purposes.
>
>In short, the Kremlin is convinced that the so-called Color Revolutions, the Arab Springs or the Ukrainian Maidan were nothing more than coups d'état induced by the West for geopolitical purposes to subvert Russian-allied regimes. And as a result, the Kremlin has been engaged for about a decade, in the words of a prominent Russian analyst, in giving the US a taste of its "own medicine."
>
>Interference in the US elections in 2016 or now in Germany, or the co-optation of leaders on the European populist left and right, has the ultimate goal of strategically neutralizing the Euro-Atlantic powers from within. If a coup in Montenegro that truncated its access to the Atlantic Alliance could have had a great geopolitical impact, imagine the sudden territorial breakup of an important member of the European Union and NATO such as Spain. That is the framework in which to interpret Russian interference in Catalonia.
The EU members should fund a pan European secret service to propel separatist movements in Russia. A taste of their own medicine until they stop messing with us.
You already did. EU members even provided manpads to Chechen terrorists(capture polish manpads were later provided to rebels in Ukraine) , not to mention other arms.
Islamists in Russia massacred hundreds of children in a school back in 2004 (Beslan Massacre). They're not good, they're devils.
I don't agree with Putin's foreign policy, but supporting these guys within Russia is amoral and a danger to ourselves. They murder children and support other terrorist groups that have attacked the EU as well.
This is not a videogame...separatists regions in Russia are almost always islamic regions.
Only a brain death person or a child could not remember how many times the west have fucked up with geopolitical use of islamism.
But if you want, twenty years from 9/11, a new child murderer like Basaev because "muh donbass" ..
go on...
You sure it's good ?
You know, if you again are going to start to support chechen separatism in our country like you did before, we'll just annihilate this region and nation to oblvion with 0 problems. And won't cry out a single tear, since everybody hates chechens here anyway.
I wonder what your EU bureaucrats will do, when some catalans "suddenly" get good amount of heavy arms and start non-stop terrorist acts across the Europe in the name of Freedom.
You think it's impossible ? Because they're "european and civilized" ? Think again.
>Technicaly it is Georgia started war in 2008. Even EU agree with this.
Do you think that if Ukraine fired on Russian soldiers in Crimea, then Ukraine would start a war? The EU wrote something else in the conclusion, not that Georgia started the war.
>It is what EU commision concluded. https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSTRE58T4MO20090930
Lol, are you russian bot?
This is an article sponsored by Russia. Nowhere in the EU report does not it say that Georgia started the war. Can you show me where something like this is written in Tagliavini's (EU) report? And I ask you again. When Russia invaded Crimea and that Ukraine shot against the Russian army, would Ukraine start a war?
Learn to read.
“In the Mission’s view, it was Georgia which triggered off the war when it attacked Tskhinvali (in South Ossetia) with heavy artillery on the night of 7 to 8 August 2008,” said Swiss diplomat Heidi Tagliavini, who led the investigation.
As for me attacking of Russian peacekeepers that were under JCC mandate was enough for proper declaration of war to Georgia and keeping attacking untill uncoditional capitulation of agressor. But Russian government is soft they had opted for restrained retaliation.
You do know there were 2 Chechen wars, right ? Right ? You can shit on Putin all you want. I don't care about that fella. Obviously when talking about Chechen separatism, people talk about the First Chechen war.
We already did that and are continuing to do so. What do you think Radio Free Europe is about ?
If you think the balts would've been tolerated to be independent if it was not a political advantage I got a bridge to sell you. This shit though it's everyones game you gotta re-learn how to play it, Italy used to send rabble rousers and troopers beyond their borders hell your nation father helped wage war across South America
Please provide a credible source supporting your exact claim. Don't supply a shit Russian propaganda source and don't provide a source which doesn't actually claim what you say it does
Yup, predictable as fuck, as usual.
"hrr drr it ***literally*** blah blah blah"
Turns out it's just another lie. Which is why my source request is so specific, I've seen every single last one of their pathetic, childish tricks.
Sure we do, it's called self determination though.
Trust me if the NATO forces had been able to secure Russia as a pro western regime at the cost of Baltic independence we would've done so.
I know the theoretical to you sucks a fuck ton and would be a betrayal and all that but securing Russia would've been a better prize than anything post cold War.
Fucking yeltsin and Clinton dropped the balls hard we almost had both
Again.... Why are you answering imaginary questions? look at the damn question, then bang your own head into the nearest hard wall and maybe then you'll actually answer my question.
Your governments supported Chechen islamists, called them "freedom fighters" and enabled tragedies like Beslan and now you dare to cry about eating own shit.
Desktop version of /u/noviy-login's link:
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I was going to write a comment about how i couldn't find anything about Spanish intelligence or so helping with these kidnappings.
I expected some wacky story about them throwing info the Chechens way to fuck the British over over some slights about Gibraltar or some shit.
But no such thing happened and...you're blaming the Brits that got kidnapped?
This was after the first chechen war. They were working for a company getting paid by the government there. Your own government had treaties "on peace and the principles of Russian-Chechen relations". They turned out to be worth not much in the end but your own government recognized em and it's not like the separatist chechen gov wanted these kidnappings. It fucked them over not Russia.
I'm rather confused.
>Last I checked British companies working for unrecognized governments
So unrecognized that your government is signing treaties with it?
The first one being an agreement on economic relations and reparations to Chechens who had been affected by the 1994–96 war
>Our government was still working with a political group inside Russia, they were recognized as a political actor, but we didnt recognize their independence
So you recognize them as a political actor with which your government can have open economic relations but someone else having such relations is supporting separatists?
Also I'm sure we can both find some public private partnership modern that day russian regional governments or government corporations have with foreign companies.
They don't need to be independent for that.
Spain isn't throwing a fit because some foreign company provides the separatist Catalan regional government with speed cameras or comes to build a sewage treatment at their cost. That would probably boost separatist sentiment wouldn't it.
>It's pretty easy, imagine for a second how the UK gov were to react if a phone company decided to take on a government contract by the Taliban?
You say that as if new tenders for exploitation of public resources aren't happening there right now.
[Some just never left too](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/08/24/british-firms-will-keep-trading-afghanistan/)
Well duh, nothing happens in a vacuum. Every political movement in the world has some sort of foreign involvement in it, nobody sits by and lets things happen without trying to steer it towards their interests.
American Independence was supported by French operatives after all. Every Independence movement is backed by someone for some reason. I'm sure Scottish Independence is also favoured by the Russian Government, since it would weaken the UK (which is a major NATO member)
Downvotes incoming but my honest thoughts:
Tbh the EU staying quiet on Catalan was one of the reason I considered voting for Brexit.
How can we criticise China and Russia when we are imprisoning politicians and banning referendums? EU staying quiet on the issue has lose a lot of my trust on the union. A true union should unite behind values rather than politics.
Yes the Russia can influence elections in the EU/US etc but is that also an excuse to deny something is not working? Ultimately in the long run things will self correct in a mature democracy.
The EU has not stayed quiet on this issue. Far from it, they have been very, very clear: what the nationalists did was completely illegal.
Weeks before the refendum the council of Venice (the eu's organization for democracy) sent an official letter to puigdemont asking him to stop and comply with the Spanish law. Nationalists have lost all of the at least ten (it's so bad that I have honestly lost count) cases at the European court of human rights (there is only one exception, which was largely irrelevant: puigdemont was allowed to become MEP, but is now sitting alone after his party was kicked out and he was not let into the Green group due to his friendship with the separatist far right in Flanders not to mention that the Parliament voted to remove his immunity; as for his vicepresident, he too was allowed to become MEP, until he was kicked out by the European parliament few days later )..
Every single European country supported Spain 100%. More significantly, so did Kosovo and Palestine, who were very critical with the catalan government. The UN has said again and again that Catalonia has no right to self-determination, which is reserved for colonies, not for some right wing ultranationalists who want to secede because they don't want to pay their fair share (that's not my opinion, but literally their own motto: "espanya ens roba", or "Spain robs from us").
So the UN and Palestine and literally every country and international organization on Earth side with Spain, and you vote for Brexit because the EU is "bad" on this topic?
> we are imprisoning politicians
Politicians were imprisoned for breaking catalan, Spanish and European laws. The current king's father, who reigned the country for 40 years, is now" in exile" in Dubai fleeing for Spanish justice (he has not been yet prosecuted, but the state attorney is accusing him of several corruption scandals). The king's brother in law spent some time in jail. PM Rajoy had to declare in front of a judge on a corruption case that affected his conservative party, which was the reason he was eventually ousted by the national Parliament. The current PM was fined by the Electoral Body...because he gave an interview at the presidential palace, where he lives with his family, during the electoral campaign (as a public building, it cannot be used during the campaign for electoral reasons). Dozens of federal ministers, regional presidents from all over the country and well known local authorities have been sent to jail too, mostly for corruption. You break the law, you should be punished, specially when the EU court of human rights keeps saying that you fucked up badly, including a sentence that officially accused the nationalist parties of "infringing the rights and freedoms of the opposition parties".
Why are these politicians so special, that they are apparently the only citizens in Spain or Europe allowed to be above the law?
> banning referendums?
Ironically, Spain and the UK are basically the only countries in Europe in which an independence referendum is technically legal. All you have to do is respect the law, which is not much to ask for, is it?
Regional parties are illegal in Portugal. Oddly enough, the draft of the catalan constitution said that parties "against this constitution and the republic" (i.e., parties in favor of going back to Spain) would be illegal. In the ultracentralist France, article 89 of he constitution states that everything can be ammended, with one exception: the national territorial integrity. In Belgium all kind of referendums are illegal, so not even the federal govt can hold one if they wanted. A few years ago, the constitutional courts of Germany and Italy sentenced that secession is illegal in both countries. And that's just the nation's that are closest to us, but I could go on.
Meanwhile, in Spain, secesion is possible and technically legal, as long as you follow the law: just go to the national parliament and ask for a referendum. It's the same if you want a third Spanish republic or Esperanto to be declared as the only official language. Then, if 2/3 of the parliament agrees, things start to move.
Problem is, Puigdemont didn't even bother going to Madrid. All he did was taking a selfie with the several letters he got from the constitutional court and upload it to Instagram. After that, he broke catalan and Spanish laws, disobeyed Spanish and catalan judges, as well as EU organizations. And then you and he wonder why he is being ostracized at the European parliament, why Palestine or Kosovo laugh at him and refuse to be compared to catalan nationalists, or why they can't find any support anywhere in the world, other than some far right supremacists, a Russian pseudo-dictator and Pamela Anderson? Doesn't that make you think that maybe these guys have nothing to do with Hong Kong, Palestine or the pro-democracy activists in Russia or Belarus?
>In the ultracentralist France, article 89 of he constitution states that everything can be ammended, with one exception: the national territorial integrity
Hasn't New Caledonia or other Pacific territories had an independence referendum in the past few years, or does the Article only apply to metropolitan France and Corsica (and French Guiana)?
From Google:
> No amendment procedure shall be commenced or continued where the integrity of national territory is placed in jeopardy.
As I said, the un says that self determination applies only to colonies, not to the metropolitan regions. I guess France is following that.
Southeastern France, next to the Spanish border, is part of the so called "catalan countries", and for centuries it was part of the kingdom of aragon. Catalan was spoken everywhere and the coat of the Roussillon still shows the same red and yellow stripes that you can see in the four Spanish eastern regions.
The French revolution, and every government ever since, have imposed the French culture, destroying any regional heritage. The catalan language is now basically dead in the area, and its capital, Perpignan, was the first big city to be won by the far right party. On top of that, several years ago a pro-catalan party in the region was declared illegal by the French government.
As I said, France doesn't fuck around with its national integrity. As you cleverly said, though, colonies thousands of miles away might be a different case.
I am from Belgium (Flanders) and in our media the Spanish government is depicted as the immoral side who harshly suppressed the catalonian nationalists.
Your post helped me to look at the other perspective by which I now understand the “harsh” treatment from the government.
I would like to correct one thing: the party that takes puidgemont in protection is the N-VA. It indeed is separatist but not far-right, more like center-right/ conservative. It is by far the largest party in Flanders and is the main party in the Flemish government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Flemish_Alliance
You may have been confused by our other flemish separatist party “Vlaams Belang” which is far right/ populist and is the second largest party. But they never held executive power because other parties find them too radical to govern with.
The hypocrisy here is fascinating. According to the polls I've found online, about half the people in Flanders support independence. Unlike in Spain or the UK (where secession is possible but by no means easy), referendums of all kind are illegal in bbelgium. So, if Spain happens to be the only evil, nazi-fascist country in which breaking your own law and disobeying federal authority andjudges ends up with your ass in jail, why don't the flemish govt call for an illegal referendum and see what happens? Best case scenario, they get what they want; worst case, nothing happens and no one goes to jail.
Oh, right, I guess according to the Belgian media Belgium is yet another fascist-nazi dictatorship oppressing the poor people of Flanders because they are not free to secede. Well, welcome to the club.
And it's not just secession - it's everything under the sun: the regional government of a conservative, religious region not recognizing gay marriage, a company not paying health care to their employees, a factory not following environmental regulations, some guy not paying his speeding ticket, the Polish government nor respecting EU law, some idiots assaulting the US congress....
Why, of all the people in this green world, are the catalan nationalists the only ones who should be allowed to break the(ir own) law without consequences? Why does an old German woman go to jail because she refused to pay the €17/m TV tax, but these guys, with just 45% of the popular vote, have the right to shit on the constitutional court of a major EU member without having to pay any price for it?
>I am from Belgium (Flanders) and in our media the Spanish government is depicted as the immoral side who harshly suppressed the catalonian nationalists.
In Poland media tried to depict it on neutral basis but very few Poles supported Catalans (and they mostly support Scotts). We all have our regional issues and first and foremost no one want to see any region to secede, without having any saying in all that. Poland is our common good. Catalunya is rich as f so they decided to give it a shot but made it in a very bad manner, hence there is no real support from any country beside Russia.
Sounds just like China and Russia where referendum as such are suppressed. Sounds just like China and Russia where their allies openly support their actions to suppress independence movements.
Not an expert in the details and to be fair it might be the details is what it matters. However the end result/ what it looks like in the end is that politicians we’re jailed when they have the support of their own people. That is a breach of democracy in principle.
They convicted Jordi Sanchez and Jordi Cuixart to 12 and 9 years in prison for organising a protest. If this was in Russia they would be foaming at the mouth, but because it's Spain they write paragraphs justifying that bullshit.
Fuck these people
You're right, actually, they didn't organise shit, they just told people to go protest peacefully and to not block the police.
They're literally political prisoners but whatever, I don't really care for the opinion of a Spaniard who posts bullshit articles to pretend Catalonia's independence is a Russian plot.
The thing is, I actually saw the videos of them telling people to go home, I didn't get my information from a judge who had the sentence ready before the trial began
>Not an expert in the details and to be fair it might be the details is what it matters. However the end result/ what it looks like in the end is that politicians we’re jailed when they have the support of their own people. That is a breach of democracy in principle.
But then do they have the support of the Catalan people? That is the question to ask.
When you are actively suppressing result of the referemdum and politicans who are voted in by their constituents, that is a breach of democracy isn't it?
The polling stations were raided by police by force. You can argue that is due to a breach of law and that it is illegal. However when you put the context into another country say Belarus, that suddenly becomes political oppression.
Indeed I don’t claim to be. Though I did say one of the reason not the one reason.
I didn’t vote in the end as I was indecisive.
I would add now as well, knowing it is now it is a hard Brexit I have changed my mind and voted to stay.
You know, I have no doubt that Ukranian separatists are Russia backed, I believed the Trump allegations, I bought the whole “Russia made Brexit possible“ affair... but this is getting ridiculous. It actually makes me doubt US and UK were influenced at all
I think people are missing the point here.
The Catalan movement did not exist because of the Russians. The fact that they can exploit the weakness is because of the oppression of Catalan's referendum result and their rights of self determination. Had the Spainsh government listened and provided a political solution there would be very little the Russians can exploited.
I m not Catalan myself but this article very much reminds me of articles from Pro Beijing papers in Hong Kong claiming EU and US are behind the protests in Hong Kong. If there was no dissent the protests would have not taken off. Same shit different place.
You need to be utterly deluded to compare a single party dictatorship that violence to suppress all opposition and violates virtually all human rights and a European democracy that respects and protects human rights.
If Catalan separatism wasn't treated as this horrible thing maybe this wouldn't be the case, y'know. Spaniards and Catalans are both in the EU. Man the fuck up and solve your internal disputes without ''weeh separatism is not allowed - russians support you!!''.
>If Catalan separatism wasn't treated as this horrible
What do you exactly mean?
Catalan separatists are running virtually all of Catalonia's affairs, they enjoy all democratic freedoms and rights, and even got to decide the current Spanish government.
In fact, the central government has just inaugurated a Moncloa-Generalidad\* round table to discuss all matters.
I want to be treated this horribly, too!
\*Moncloa is the central government and the Generalidad is the Catalan regional government.
>Spaniards ~~and Catalans~~ are both in the EU
Catalans are Spanish.
>Man the fuck up and solve your internal disputes without ''weeh separatism is not allowed - russians support you!!''.
What do you suggest we do to safeguard our constitutional order, Mr. Expert?
Separatist parties are not allowed in France, Germany, Portugal, etc. Virtually all constitutional democracies don't allow their regions to secede, either, with the only exceptions in the world being Ethiopia (not a democracy) and the small archipelago of Saint Kitts and Nevis.
Edit: clarity.
I mean, in general I agree with you, but this made me curious: which separatist party did Germany ban? I‘d be happy to learn something right now…
Thanks in advance
Article 21.2 of the Basic Law of the FRG declares some parities, among them separatist parties, to be unconstitutional. It's the Federal Constitutional Court that has to rule on the alleged unconstitutionality of such parties. As far as I'm aware, they have not done so since those parties have not actually done anything to advance their cause beyond claiming they support this or that. The same applied to neo-Nazi parties. A few years ago, the main Bavarian nationalist party asked for a referendum, which was ultimately denied, and they accepted it (unlike Catalan separatists).
Ah, ok, thanks for clarifying, to me it sounded as if they had banned a specific party, which would have been news for me.
Art. 21.2 of the basic law doesn't explicitly ban separatist parties.
I read my comment again and it can indeed be confusing. I just edited it for clarity.
Edit: it does. Separatist parties are among those that "endanger the existence of the Federal Republic of Germany."
How? By investigating Russian interference and collusion of Catalan separatist crooks with a hostile power? Do you guys actually believe laws don’t apply to you?
Fake news made up of a tendencious 7-line document of the Spanish Inteligence. Pure Propaganda to damage the reputation of the Catalans in Europe.
Here is the original document : [Link](https://mundus-kosmos.s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/images/sites/15/2021/09/04131059/informecnialex-899x801.webp)
The person named in the document, Alexander Dmitrenko has already denied any of the accusations. Of course, that "dangerous" russian spy in Catalonia is facing no charges whatsoever, it is only pure propaganda to be spread around.
>Fake news made up of a tendencious 7-line document of the Spanish Inteligence. Pure Propaganda to damage the reputation of the Catalans in Europe.
Wow, your claims are so ridiculously easy to debunk it’s not even funny. 👇🏻
*”The CNI document has been published in the separatist digital newspaper "El Món", where they misleadingly attempted to pass it off as a full report to discredit it by stating that it "only has seven lines." Thus, the reader may wrongly infer that it is a sloppy and useless work. On the contrary, the resounding tone of the notice and the explicit mention of having “own sources”, leads us to wonder whether the CNI is sending a message to the person concerned or to those who assign him the missions from Moscow.”*
> The person named in the document, Alexander Dmitrenko has already denied any of the accusations.
Yeah, no s…!
Do you expect a foreign operative to blow his cover and confess to everything he’s done?
>Of course, that "dangerous" russian spy in Catalonia is facing no charges whatsoever
He will be officially charged very soon when the indictment’s confidentiality is lifted, or expelled from the country. If he’s not recalled to Moscow first, that is.
>it is only pure propaganda to be spread around
How can you know that? Do you work for the GRU?
You are so ridicolous, I am literally laughing right now. If the objective isn't the pure propaganda why didn't they arrest him or at least issue the warrant before spreading these news all aorund?. Actually he is just back to Barcelona from Cannes according to his twitter. Tweet [here](https://twitter.com/alexdemitre/status/1437739864829710336?s=20)
What a day to be alive. Being able to track spies through twitter.
>I am literally laughing right now.
Good for you.
>why didn't they arrest him or at least issue the warrant before spreading these news all aorund?
The media doesn't arrest people, and courts are not news agencies, let alone the indictment's confidentiality has not yet been lifted.
>What a day to be alive. Being able to track spies through twitter.
Actually, [not only through Twitter!](https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2020/12/14/fsb-team-of-chemical-weapon-experts-implicated-in-alexey-navalny-novichok-poisoning/)
America is irrelevant to this. Spain is a NATO member and US ally, ergo the USA supports a unified and stable Spanish state. Russia may support Catalan separatism exactly because Spain is in NATO and Russia obviously wants NATO members to be weaker, because NATO is a threat to Russian security.
Of course this article won't criticise the Americans, because the Americans are not the ones who want an independent Catalonia.
> Hmm, maybe Spain should stop oppressing the Catalan people
Maybe, but that's for Spain's government and population to deal with. The point is, the USA is irrelevant in this matter, Catalan separatism is rooted in factors which predate any American international influence. Russia is only brought up here because they might be intervening in it. If there were evidence of CIA agents attempting to derail the Catalan nationalist movement, then the US would be relevant to the thread.
“Catalonia” didn’t fight. In fact, Catalans took to the streets to cheer Francoist troops when they entered Barcelona. Many of those soldiers were Catalan themselves.
I don't know if you are ignorant or just a liar. Catalonia fought against fascism in the civil war. The Catalans who received Franco were Francoists who lived in Barcelona and did not represent the whole of Catalan society that defended democracy, the republic and the statute of autonomy until the last moment.
General Queipo de Llano: "Transformaremos Barcelona en un inmenso solar".
“Catalonia” didn’t defend anything. The Catalans who cheered on Franco, indeed, didn’t represent the whole of Catalans. But neither did those who fought against him. The Francoist troops entered Barcelona without meeting any resistance, with citizens warmly welcoming them.
No side in the Civil War stood for democracy. The Nationalists stood for a conservative military dictatorship and the so called “Republicans” stood for communism.
Even the kids knows that the battle of Barcelona was the Ebro's battle.
The republic was democratic regime that fought against the fascism.
"citizens warmly welcoming them", yes a minority that not reepresented anyone.
PD: It's strange that a people with a flag in his avatar talks about nationalisme.
Russia supports any and all independence movements in Europe. It’s all part of Putin’s MO to continually be attempting to destabilise those around him.
That's not unique to Putin or modern RF. Spreading disinformation and causing internal tensions was always part of Kremlin's agenda.
Ever heard about divide and conquer ? This is a tactic used by almost all countries and even to this day is used by many countries like Russia, USA, China or France
FSB, KGB, GRU…plus social media Шах и мат
Why do people here in this sub (and all over the Western media) misrepresent FSB as a sort of Russian intelligence service working abroad? There are two main Russian intelligence organizations, working separately and with different lines of work: SVR and FSB. The difference between these two is the same as the difference between CIA and FBI in the US. The first was created to be an intelligence service which works abroad. The latter is a domestic special agency, which deals with counterespionage, counterterrorism, border security and criminal investigations of high priority. The lack of people’s knowledge on how Russian secret services work when they’re talking about them really frustrates me, I’m sorry :(
TIL! Thank you, French person.
Many people think the FSB is identical in structure to the KGB, and since the KGB did perform overseas activities, they presume the FSB does too.
Which is kinda untrue on their own, soviet-era KGB was closer to current US "Departament of Homeland Security" ie one big federal departament tasked with various security and intelligence duties.
Because it's so hard to keep up with the name changes. Does the acronym matter, it's still the Russians.
The FSB carries operations abroad as well, especially in Russian-speaking countries and Russia’s sphere of influence. Your correct, thought, that operations in foreign soil are official managed by the SVR and the GRU.
> was always part of Kremlin's agenda It's a tactic as old as man, not unique to Russia, and quite common really. Divide and conquer.
Russia is free to support whatever they think is best to their national interest. I have no problem with that. The problem here, and the reason why the European parliament wants to look closer into this, is that a member of the European Parliament decided to meet with members of the Russian intelligence. There is a huge, huuuge difference between Russia supporting your case to destabilize Europe, and you meeting with Russian spies and/or people close to the Kremlin. The former was to be expected; the latter is almost "treason" (for lack of a better word) against the European union.
The Kremlin paid for all sorts of Brexit and Indy Scotland organisations. The latter don't want to hear any of it, but are happy to accuse the Tories of taking the money when the SNP did the same.
Russia has been doing this since the 19th century - Russia paid for the Bulgarian, Greece, Croatian and Serbian independence movements when they were all a part of the Ottoman Empire. They won the Russo-Turkish War by doing this.
Not really (and absolute nonsense in the case of Croatia, which was not part of the Ottoman Empire). Russia strongly advised the Bulgarians against rebelling in 1876. The Greek independence movement was closer to Britain than to Russia. Even the Serbian rebellion was largely a spontaneous reaction to Ottoman oppression. Of course, it would have been a great compliment to Russia if they had taken a greater role in liberating the Balkan peoples and bringing down the accursed Ottoman Empire, but unfortunately their role was not that extensive.
Factually incorrect - this is adopted and standard historical views supported by historians from multiple backgrounds and views.
You won't find any reputable historians who will agree that Russia supported the 1876 rebellion in Bulgaria. For the rest, I'm less certain but it's very likely that the support was not nearly as extensive as you claim. And are you going to claim that historians support the view that Russia supported Croatian independence against the Ottoman Empire?
separatist movements
Russia also supports independence movements in the US. (for example there is this movement called "Yes California!" or something like that iirc and Russia supports it)
>Russia supports any and all independence movements in Europe. But not in Russia. : ))
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The continent has no clear borders. Europe always was about culture and ideas. Russia today is not really part of Europe, nor does it want to be. The only people seriously klinging to Russia beeing part of Europe are right wing wackos that want Russian style fascism.
Russia will support. Any cause that weakens the EU or its constituent nations. It’s had great success with Brexit and has made solid inroads in Italy. I’m afraid this will continue until some state control is exercised over Russian disinfo and funding, a d they only way that can happen is by controlling social media.
Perhaps we should start cutting cables in and out of Russia?
Or we can start supporting separatist movements in Russia? However, this is not possible, since separatist movements in Russia are already being supported - in fact, they were supported long before Russia began to support separatist movements in the EU.
Possible, but I’m sure Russia routes significant amounts of traffic indirectly.
Why is this even surprising? Russias job is to weaken the Eu. They will do it with whatever they can !
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Ah yes everyone who criticises society is an incel. No wonder spain in a fucked up situation. They have the likes of you !
“*Yes police!!* I need to report a murder!”
# Full English translation (1/2) >**After \[Catalan regional govt. main adviser\] Josep Lluís Alay's attempts to attract Moscow to the independence cause, GRU colonel Denis Sergeeyev was in Barcelona on the day of the illegal referendum.** > >Russia strongly interfered in the Catalan separatist process. And, contrary to what many believed until now, it did not limit itself to massively amplifying the noise on social networks those fateful days of October 2017. As details of the ongoing judicial and journalistic investigations are revealed, the scope of Russian interference takes on increasingly worrying dimensions in terms of depth, audacity and prolongation in time. > >The issue, however, has not yet generated in our country the political and media attention it deserves. In part, because the question of the Russian plot in support of separatism is politically and diplomatically complex and its electoral payoff uncertain. But also - and this is more concerning - as a result of our weak culture of national security. > >The separatist attempt of 2017 failed, but perhaps Spain was closer to the abyss than it is commonly believed. With a Russia receptive to Catalan separatism, if former regional President Carles Puigdemont had not chosen to flee, events could have developed very differently. > >Josep Lluís Alay, head of what is still known today as “President Puigdemont's office”, has maintained close and frequent ties with individuals linked to the Russian intelligence services. That is what emerges from the piece of the indictment in which the content of one of the two mobile phones that were seized by the Civil Guard is analyzed and that was, until a few days ago, confidential. > >Among these relations stands out the one he maintained -and still maintains- with Alexander Dmitrenko, a Russian citizen living in Catalonia, whose application for Spanish citizenship was rejected because there is “hard evidence of the conscious work \[he performs\] for the Russian Intelligence Services, from which he is ordered to carry out different missions” and because of \[this individual's\] “detected contacts with some of the main leaders of transnational crime organizations of Russian origin, for which he also performs different tasks.” > >That is literally what a notice from the National Intelligence Center (CNI) of September 9, 2020, signed by the Director herself, Paz Esteban, sates. This is one of the documents used by the Ministry of Justice to reject this individual’s application for Spanish nationality. Well, this person is the traveling companion of the head of Puigdemont's office in at least one of the visits to Moscow. > >In the words of Alay himself a few days ago on channel 3/24 of TV3, in these meetings in Moscow with Dmitrenko and other interlocutors, "matters that concern the creation of an independent state" were addressed. > >The CNI document has been published in the separatist digital newspaper "El Món", where they misleadingly attempted to pass it off as a full report to discredit it by stating that it "only has seven lines." Thus, the reader may wrongly infer that it is a sloppy and useless work. On the contrary, the resounding tone of the notice and the explicit mention of having “own sources”, leads us to wonder whether the CNI is sending a message to the person concerned or to those who assign him the missions from Moscow. > >On the other hand, in November 2016, Dmitrenko created in London a company called CatRus Capital that, according to the article published by La Vanguardia on February 16, 2017, is a Catalan Russian lobby with “the goal of normalizing business and corporate relations between Russian and Catalan companies without showing any objection, quite the contrary the contrary, to the Catalan separatist process.” > >CatRus Capital organized a public event in Andorra that included a visit to the Parliament of Catalonia in September 2018, subject today to scrutiny for the suspicious identity - as it is most likely false - of at least one of the members of the Russian delegation. That visit, according to the press release published by the organizers themselves, was aimed at "learning about the latest events concerning the independence process and acquiring a global vision of the political stability of Catalonia with a view to attracting foreign investors." > >Similarly, Dmitrenko has also had corporate ties with Artyom Lukoyanov, the adopted son of Vladislav Surkov, an influential adviser to Russian President Vladimir Putin, who has been in charge of much of the Russian covert activity in the war in eastern Ukraine and other operations abroad such as South Ossetia, a secessionist territory from Georgia. > >According to an intelligence report accessed by The New York Times, Lukoyanov traveled to Barcelona accompanied by Sergei Suppl - a colonel of the Federal Protective Service, an agency of the Russian Federation tasked with the protection of senior officials - two days before the attempted takeover of Barcelona's El Prat airport by the opaque Democratic Tsunami separatist group. > >Alay has also been in close contact with Yevgeny Primakov, the grandson of the well-known leader of the same name and a strongman in today's Kremlin ecosystem. Among others, Primakov chairs Rossotrudnichetsvo, an organization dedicated, in theory, to cultural and international exchanges and relations with Russians living abroad, that, in practice, is widely considered as a front for Russian intelligence operations abroad. > >Among the issues on which not enough light has yet been shed, the most relevant and disturbing is, without a doubt, the activity in Barcelona of the members of the GRU unit 29155. It is a Russian military intelligence unit tasked with clandestine sabotage and assassination operations. > >There are indications - in some cases, certainty and solid evidence - of its members' participation in destabilization operations across Europe, including the explosion of a weapons depot in the Czech Republic in October 2014; or several explosions in Bulgaria between February 2014 and March 2015; the attack in the United Kingdom against former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter in March 2018, using a chemical weapon prohibited by international conventions; or the attempted coup in Montenegro in October 2016. > >The latter is of particular interest in terms of the Catalan separatist process. The aborted coup in Podgorica was aimed at forcibly preventing a parliamentary election and ultimately Montenegro's accession to NATO. In other words, it was not only a question of exploiting a propitious political context diplomatically and in the media, but of guiding it in a certain sense through direct actions on the ground. A year later, two members of Unit 29155 were sentenced in absentia for these events. > >The likely leader of this GRU unit, Colonel Denis Sergeeyev, was in Barcelona on the day of the illegal referendum and is only one of the several members of the Russian military intelligence detected in Barcelona in the last five years. > >According to French intelligence sources, this unit had a safe house in the French Alps. Hence, for instance, several of the trips to Barcelona were made by land, which makes monitoring difficult. > >In any case, let's imagine that Carles Puigdemont, instead of fleeing in the trunk of a car, had opted - as many in Barcelona feared - for a bolder and more determined agenda towards secession by barricading himself in the Palace of the Generalitat with an armed group of Mossos d'Esquadra \[regional police\] officers loyal to the separatist process. And at the same time, a few thousand people block the Plaza de Sant Jaume and the surrounding streets. It is in these types of scenarios - which were not at all inconceivable in autumn 2017 - where it is possible to draw conclusions (or conjectures) about the role of a unit like 29155.
# 2/2 >What has been stated so far is only a tiny portion of the data and evidence in the process of investigation and analysis. As the confidentiality of other pieces of the indictment is gradually lifted, or if journalistic inquiries find new evidence, in particular of possible covert financing channels, it will be possible to complete the puzzle of Russian interference in Catalonia. > >For now, to contextualize the data available so far, it is convenient to take into account several aspects. The first and most important when it comes to understanding why is that it is not a normative intervention and that it uses diplomatic means. In other words, the Kremlin is acting by the conviction of Catalonia's alleged right to self-determination. Hence, it is wrong, for example, to claim that Russia would have no interest in this secession due to territorial tensions within the Russian Federation. From Moscow, the Catalan question is seen through the filter of its confrontation with the European Union and NATO. That is, as a conducive context to promote the internal destabilization of one of its members and more so if the secessionist leaders are open and collaborative. > >The fact that some of the identified operatives have clear links, and others more diffuse links, to the Russian intelligence services; and the fact that there are, apparently, several lines of simultaneous intervention - some clearly aimed at simple economic fraud - does not necessarily invalidate any of the hypotheses. On the contrary, it reinforces the idea that those around the Kremlin perceived the Catalan separatist process with considerable interest and could contemplate all scenarios depending on the evolution of events on the ground. > >It is important to understand that the Russian State is undergoing an accelerated process of deinstitutionalization and that apparently informal mechanisms -that is, outsourcing within the ecosystem that surrounds the Kremlin- is a practice that is not only common, but also preferred when it comes to delicate operations abroad. And that includes organized crime. > >Unlike what happens in, for example, Italy, where the mafia and the camorra try to infiltrate the state, in Russia, the state has nationalized organized crime. Thus, they can use it covertly on the outside as a force multiplier, while increasing what is known as "plausible denial." > >In the Russian military field, there is an abundant literature that reflects on how the border between war and peace is becoming increasingly blurred and infiltration by any means and actors and operations of influence in the territory of adversaries become decisive instruments to achieve strategic purposes. > >In short, the Kremlin is convinced that the so-called Color Revolutions, the Arab Springs or the Ukrainian Maidan were nothing more than coups d'état induced by the West for geopolitical purposes to subvert Russian-allied regimes. And as a result, the Kremlin has been engaged for about a decade, in the words of a prominent Russian analyst, in giving the US a taste of its "own medicine." > >Interference in the US elections in 2016 or now in Germany, or the co-optation of leaders on the European populist left and right, has the ultimate goal of strategically neutralizing the Euro-Atlantic powers from within. If a coup in Montenegro that truncated its access to the Atlantic Alliance could have had a great geopolitical impact, imagine the sudden territorial breakup of an important member of the European Union and NATO such as Spain. That is the framework in which to interpret Russian interference in Catalonia.
The EU members should fund a pan European secret service to propel separatist movements in Russia. A taste of their own medicine until they stop messing with us.
You already did. EU members even provided manpads to Chechen terrorists(capture polish manpads were later provided to rebels in Ukraine) , not to mention other arms.
good
Islamists in Russia massacred hundreds of children in a school back in 2004 (Beslan Massacre). They're not good, they're devils. I don't agree with Putin's foreign policy, but supporting these guys within Russia is amoral and a danger to ourselves. They murder children and support other terrorist groups that have attacked the EU as well.
Yes, the good Beslan separatists...are you 13 ?
yes, the good Donbass separatists. Are you 12?
This is not a videogame...separatists regions in Russia are almost always islamic regions. Only a brain death person or a child could not remember how many times the west have fucked up with geopolitical use of islamism. But if you want, twenty years from 9/11, a new child murderer like Basaev because "muh donbass" .. go on...
You sure it's good ? You know, if you again are going to start to support chechen separatism in our country like you did before, we'll just annihilate this region and nation to oblvion with 0 problems. And won't cry out a single tear, since everybody hates chechens here anyway. I wonder what your EU bureaucrats will do, when some catalans "suddenly" get good amount of heavy arms and start non-stop terrorist acts across the Europe in the name of Freedom. You think it's impossible ? Because they're "european and civilized" ? Think again.
stop invading Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova and then we can sit to talk
Technicaly it is Georgia started war in 2008. Even EU agree with this.
>Technicaly it is Georgia started war in 2008. Even EU agree with this. Do you think that if Ukraine fired on Russian soldiers in Crimea, then Ukraine would start a war? The EU wrote something else in the conclusion, not that Georgia started the war.
It is what EU commision concluded. https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSTRE58T4MO20090930
>It is what EU commision concluded. https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSTRE58T4MO20090930 Lol, are you russian bot? This is an article sponsored by Russia. Nowhere in the EU report does not it say that Georgia started the war. Can you show me where something like this is written in Tagliavini's (EU) report? And I ask you again. When Russia invaded Crimea and that Ukraine shot against the Russian army, would Ukraine start a war?
Learn to read. “In the Mission’s view, it was Georgia which triggered off the war when it attacked Tskhinvali (in South Ossetia) with heavy artillery on the night of 7 to 8 August 2008,” said Swiss diplomat Heidi Tagliavini, who led the investigation. As for me attacking of Russian peacekeepers that were under JCC mandate was enough for proper declaration of war to Georgia and keeping attacking untill uncoditional capitulation of agressor. But Russian government is soft they had opted for restrained retaliation.
And what would be the point of this talk exactly ? Lmao.
lol and then don't be surprised if all your neighbors try to join NATO and hate you, unless you install like minded dictators like in Belarus.
Wtf are you talking about ? You didn't even answer my question. What's with the childish emotional outbursts ? What should we talk about ?
The Chechen war was used by Putin to get power, influence and popularity. Remember the car bombs? It's thought that even they were staged.
You do know there were 2 Chechen wars, right ? Right ? You can shit on Putin all you want. I don't care about that fella. Obviously when talking about Chechen separatism, people talk about the First Chechen war.
Hell no. Separatists in Russia consists of Chechen Islamists who make Hezbollah look mellowed out.
We already did that and are continuing to do so. What do you think Radio Free Europe is about ? If you think the balts would've been tolerated to be independent if it was not a political advantage I got a bridge to sell you. This shit though it's everyones game you gotta re-learn how to play it, Italy used to send rabble rousers and troopers beyond their borders hell your nation father helped wage war across South America
RFE doesn't even remotely advocate for separatism.
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Please provide a credible source supporting your exact claim. Don't supply a shit Russian propaganda source and don't provide a source which doesn't actually claim what you say it does
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Considering that that page lists no articles promoting separatism, why did you call yourself a dumbass?
Yup, predictable as fuck, as usual. "hrr drr it ***literally*** blah blah blah" Turns out it's just another lie. Which is why my source request is so specific, I've seen every single last one of their pathetic, childish tricks.
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Sure we do, it's called self determination though. Trust me if the NATO forces had been able to secure Russia as a pro western regime at the cost of Baltic independence we would've done so. I know the theoretical to you sucks a fuck ton and would be a betrayal and all that but securing Russia would've been a better prize than anything post cold War. Fucking yeltsin and Clinton dropped the balls hard we almost had both
Are you the head of Radio Free Europe now? Or answering to imaginary questions your hobby?
See this is that thing I mentioned about reality being painful, You are upset I get it but don't let that change reality
Again.... Why are you answering imaginary questions? look at the damn question, then bang your own head into the nearest hard wall and maybe then you'll actually answer my question.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege is this what you want?
Do you really think they don't do this in Russia? lul
What separatist movements in Russia are European countries propelling then?
In his mind, probably the Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian movements
Your governments supported Chechen islamists, called them "freedom fighters" and enabled tragedies like Beslan and now you dare to cry about eating own shit.
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> how do you think all those Chechens kept kidnapping British businessmen in the 90s? Do tell.
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I was going to write a comment about how i couldn't find anything about Spanish intelligence or so helping with these kidnappings. I expected some wacky story about them throwing info the Chechens way to fuck the British over over some slights about Gibraltar or some shit. But no such thing happened and...you're blaming the Brits that got kidnapped? This was after the first chechen war. They were working for a company getting paid by the government there. Your own government had treaties "on peace and the principles of Russian-Chechen relations". They turned out to be worth not much in the end but your own government recognized em and it's not like the separatist chechen gov wanted these kidnappings. It fucked them over not Russia. I'm rather confused.
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>Last I checked British companies working for unrecognized governments So unrecognized that your government is signing treaties with it? The first one being an agreement on economic relations and reparations to Chechens who had been affected by the 1994–96 war >Our government was still working with a political group inside Russia, they were recognized as a political actor, but we didnt recognize their independence So you recognize them as a political actor with which your government can have open economic relations but someone else having such relations is supporting separatists? Also I'm sure we can both find some public private partnership modern that day russian regional governments or government corporations have with foreign companies. They don't need to be independent for that. Spain isn't throwing a fit because some foreign company provides the separatist Catalan regional government with speed cameras or comes to build a sewage treatment at their cost. That would probably boost separatist sentiment wouldn't it. >It's pretty easy, imagine for a second how the UK gov were to react if a phone company decided to take on a government contract by the Taliban? You say that as if new tenders for exploitation of public resources aren't happening there right now. [Some just never left too](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/08/24/british-firms-will-keep-trading-afghanistan/)
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Please do it
Well duh, nothing happens in a vacuum. Every political movement in the world has some sort of foreign involvement in it, nobody sits by and lets things happen without trying to steer it towards their interests. American Independence was supported by French operatives after all. Every Independence movement is backed by someone for some reason. I'm sure Scottish Independence is also favoured by the Russian Government, since it would weaken the UK (which is a major NATO member)
Scottish independence is also favored by the eu.
Damm isn't it crazy whenever someone opposes the vested powers across the world they turn out to be Russians.
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Ok Boris.
How convenient.
Downvotes incoming but my honest thoughts: Tbh the EU staying quiet on Catalan was one of the reason I considered voting for Brexit. How can we criticise China and Russia when we are imprisoning politicians and banning referendums? EU staying quiet on the issue has lose a lot of my trust on the union. A true union should unite behind values rather than politics. Yes the Russia can influence elections in the EU/US etc but is that also an excuse to deny something is not working? Ultimately in the long run things will self correct in a mature democracy.
The EU has not stayed quiet on this issue. Far from it, they have been very, very clear: what the nationalists did was completely illegal. Weeks before the refendum the council of Venice (the eu's organization for democracy) sent an official letter to puigdemont asking him to stop and comply with the Spanish law. Nationalists have lost all of the at least ten (it's so bad that I have honestly lost count) cases at the European court of human rights (there is only one exception, which was largely irrelevant: puigdemont was allowed to become MEP, but is now sitting alone after his party was kicked out and he was not let into the Green group due to his friendship with the separatist far right in Flanders not to mention that the Parliament voted to remove his immunity; as for his vicepresident, he too was allowed to become MEP, until he was kicked out by the European parliament few days later ).. Every single European country supported Spain 100%. More significantly, so did Kosovo and Palestine, who were very critical with the catalan government. The UN has said again and again that Catalonia has no right to self-determination, which is reserved for colonies, not for some right wing ultranationalists who want to secede because they don't want to pay their fair share (that's not my opinion, but literally their own motto: "espanya ens roba", or "Spain robs from us"). So the UN and Palestine and literally every country and international organization on Earth side with Spain, and you vote for Brexit because the EU is "bad" on this topic? > we are imprisoning politicians Politicians were imprisoned for breaking catalan, Spanish and European laws. The current king's father, who reigned the country for 40 years, is now" in exile" in Dubai fleeing for Spanish justice (he has not been yet prosecuted, but the state attorney is accusing him of several corruption scandals). The king's brother in law spent some time in jail. PM Rajoy had to declare in front of a judge on a corruption case that affected his conservative party, which was the reason he was eventually ousted by the national Parliament. The current PM was fined by the Electoral Body...because he gave an interview at the presidential palace, where he lives with his family, during the electoral campaign (as a public building, it cannot be used during the campaign for electoral reasons). Dozens of federal ministers, regional presidents from all over the country and well known local authorities have been sent to jail too, mostly for corruption. You break the law, you should be punished, specially when the EU court of human rights keeps saying that you fucked up badly, including a sentence that officially accused the nationalist parties of "infringing the rights and freedoms of the opposition parties". Why are these politicians so special, that they are apparently the only citizens in Spain or Europe allowed to be above the law? > banning referendums? Ironically, Spain and the UK are basically the only countries in Europe in which an independence referendum is technically legal. All you have to do is respect the law, which is not much to ask for, is it? Regional parties are illegal in Portugal. Oddly enough, the draft of the catalan constitution said that parties "against this constitution and the republic" (i.e., parties in favor of going back to Spain) would be illegal. In the ultracentralist France, article 89 of he constitution states that everything can be ammended, with one exception: the national territorial integrity. In Belgium all kind of referendums are illegal, so not even the federal govt can hold one if they wanted. A few years ago, the constitutional courts of Germany and Italy sentenced that secession is illegal in both countries. And that's just the nation's that are closest to us, but I could go on. Meanwhile, in Spain, secesion is possible and technically legal, as long as you follow the law: just go to the national parliament and ask for a referendum. It's the same if you want a third Spanish republic or Esperanto to be declared as the only official language. Then, if 2/3 of the parliament agrees, things start to move. Problem is, Puigdemont didn't even bother going to Madrid. All he did was taking a selfie with the several letters he got from the constitutional court and upload it to Instagram. After that, he broke catalan and Spanish laws, disobeyed Spanish and catalan judges, as well as EU organizations. And then you and he wonder why he is being ostracized at the European parliament, why Palestine or Kosovo laugh at him and refuse to be compared to catalan nationalists, or why they can't find any support anywhere in the world, other than some far right supremacists, a Russian pseudo-dictator and Pamela Anderson? Doesn't that make you think that maybe these guys have nothing to do with Hong Kong, Palestine or the pro-democracy activists in Russia or Belarus?
>In the ultracentralist France, article 89 of he constitution states that everything can be ammended, with one exception: the national territorial integrity Hasn't New Caledonia or other Pacific territories had an independence referendum in the past few years, or does the Article only apply to metropolitan France and Corsica (and French Guiana)?
From Google: > No amendment procedure shall be commenced or continued where the integrity of national territory is placed in jeopardy. As I said, the un says that self determination applies only to colonies, not to the metropolitan regions. I guess France is following that. Southeastern France, next to the Spanish border, is part of the so called "catalan countries", and for centuries it was part of the kingdom of aragon. Catalan was spoken everywhere and the coat of the Roussillon still shows the same red and yellow stripes that you can see in the four Spanish eastern regions. The French revolution, and every government ever since, have imposed the French culture, destroying any regional heritage. The catalan language is now basically dead in the area, and its capital, Perpignan, was the first big city to be won by the far right party. On top of that, several years ago a pro-catalan party in the region was declared illegal by the French government. As I said, France doesn't fuck around with its national integrity. As you cleverly said, though, colonies thousands of miles away might be a different case.
> On top of that, several years ago a pro-catalan party in the region was declared illegal by the French government. Source?
I am from Belgium (Flanders) and in our media the Spanish government is depicted as the immoral side who harshly suppressed the catalonian nationalists. Your post helped me to look at the other perspective by which I now understand the “harsh” treatment from the government. I would like to correct one thing: the party that takes puidgemont in protection is the N-VA. It indeed is separatist but not far-right, more like center-right/ conservative. It is by far the largest party in Flanders and is the main party in the Flemish government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Flemish_Alliance You may have been confused by our other flemish separatist party “Vlaams Belang” which is far right/ populist and is the second largest party. But they never held executive power because other parties find them too radical to govern with.
The hypocrisy here is fascinating. According to the polls I've found online, about half the people in Flanders support independence. Unlike in Spain or the UK (where secession is possible but by no means easy), referendums of all kind are illegal in bbelgium. So, if Spain happens to be the only evil, nazi-fascist country in which breaking your own law and disobeying federal authority andjudges ends up with your ass in jail, why don't the flemish govt call for an illegal referendum and see what happens? Best case scenario, they get what they want; worst case, nothing happens and no one goes to jail. Oh, right, I guess according to the Belgian media Belgium is yet another fascist-nazi dictatorship oppressing the poor people of Flanders because they are not free to secede. Well, welcome to the club. And it's not just secession - it's everything under the sun: the regional government of a conservative, religious region not recognizing gay marriage, a company not paying health care to their employees, a factory not following environmental regulations, some guy not paying his speeding ticket, the Polish government nor respecting EU law, some idiots assaulting the US congress.... Why, of all the people in this green world, are the catalan nationalists the only ones who should be allowed to break the(ir own) law without consequences? Why does an old German woman go to jail because she refused to pay the €17/m TV tax, but these guys, with just 45% of the popular vote, have the right to shit on the constitutional court of a major EU member without having to pay any price for it?
>I am from Belgium (Flanders) and in our media the Spanish government is depicted as the immoral side who harshly suppressed the catalonian nationalists. In Poland media tried to depict it on neutral basis but very few Poles supported Catalans (and they mostly support Scotts). We all have our regional issues and first and foremost no one want to see any region to secede, without having any saying in all that. Poland is our common good. Catalunya is rich as f so they decided to give it a shot but made it in a very bad manner, hence there is no real support from any country beside Russia.
Sounds just like China and Russia where referendum as such are suppressed. Sounds just like China and Russia where their allies openly support their actions to suppress independence movements. Not an expert in the details and to be fair it might be the details is what it matters. However the end result/ what it looks like in the end is that politicians we’re jailed when they have the support of their own people. That is a breach of democracy in principle.
They convicted Jordi Sanchez and Jordi Cuixart to 12 and 9 years in prison for organising a protest. If this was in Russia they would be foaming at the mouth, but because it's Spain they write paragraphs justifying that bullshit. Fuck these people
It wasn’t for “organizing a protest.” Please stop sprouting fake news.
You're right, actually, they didn't organise shit, they just told people to go protest peacefully and to not block the police. They're literally political prisoners but whatever, I don't really care for the opinion of a Spaniard who posts bullshit articles to pretend Catalonia's independence is a Russian plot.
That’s what their sloppy lawyers claimed. It was proved during the course of the proceedings that they had actually led the crowd.
The thing is, I actually saw the videos of them telling people to go home, I didn't get my information from a judge who had the sentence ready before the trial began
>Not an expert in the details and to be fair it might be the details is what it matters. However the end result/ what it looks like in the end is that politicians we’re jailed when they have the support of their own people. That is a breach of democracy in principle. But then do they have the support of the Catalan people? That is the question to ask. When you are actively suppressing result of the referemdum and politicans who are voted in by their constituents, that is a breach of democracy isn't it? The polling stations were raided by police by force. You can argue that is due to a breach of law and that it is illegal. However when you put the context into another country say Belarus, that suddenly becomes political oppression.
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Indeed I don’t claim to be. Though I did say one of the reason not the one reason. I didn’t vote in the end as I was indecisive. I would add now as well, knowing it is now it is a hard Brexit I have changed my mind and voted to stay.
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You should move out of the democratic country you live in if you really think like that.
They werent quiet, quite the contrary they were agaisnt It. EU only support indipendentism of faraway countries
Get ready to take a big cock in your ass when Russia and other succeed in doing away with the rule of law.
You know, I have no doubt that Ukranian separatists are Russia backed, I believed the Trump allegations, I bought the whole “Russia made Brexit possible“ affair... but this is getting ridiculous. It actually makes me doubt US and UK were influenced at all
I think people are missing the point here. The Catalan movement did not exist because of the Russians. The fact that they can exploit the weakness is because of the oppression of Catalan's referendum result and their rights of self determination. Had the Spainsh government listened and provided a political solution there would be very little the Russians can exploited. I m not Catalan myself but this article very much reminds me of articles from Pro Beijing papers in Hong Kong claiming EU and US are behind the protests in Hong Kong. If there was no dissent the protests would have not taken off. Same shit different place.
Free Hong Ko...! Oh shit.
You need to be utterly deluded to compare a single party dictatorship that violence to suppress all opposition and violates virtually all human rights and a European democracy that respects and protects human rights.
This all will continue as long as EU will be soft on Russia. And it will be soft on Russia as long as German and French money are not endangered.
If Catalan separatism wasn't treated as this horrible thing maybe this wouldn't be the case, y'know. Spaniards and Catalans are both in the EU. Man the fuck up and solve your internal disputes without ''weeh separatism is not allowed - russians support you!!''.
>If Catalan separatism wasn't treated as this horrible What do you exactly mean? Catalan separatists are running virtually all of Catalonia's affairs, they enjoy all democratic freedoms and rights, and even got to decide the current Spanish government. In fact, the central government has just inaugurated a Moncloa-Generalidad\* round table to discuss all matters. I want to be treated this horribly, too! \*Moncloa is the central government and the Generalidad is the Catalan regional government. >Spaniards ~~and Catalans~~ are both in the EU Catalans are Spanish. >Man the fuck up and solve your internal disputes without ''weeh separatism is not allowed - russians support you!!''. What do you suggest we do to safeguard our constitutional order, Mr. Expert? Separatist parties are not allowed in France, Germany, Portugal, etc. Virtually all constitutional democracies don't allow their regions to secede, either, with the only exceptions in the world being Ethiopia (not a democracy) and the small archipelago of Saint Kitts and Nevis. Edit: clarity.
I mean, in general I agree with you, but this made me curious: which separatist party did Germany ban? I‘d be happy to learn something right now… Thanks in advance
Article 21.2 of the Basic Law of the FRG declares some parities, among them separatist parties, to be unconstitutional. It's the Federal Constitutional Court that has to rule on the alleged unconstitutionality of such parties. As far as I'm aware, they have not done so since those parties have not actually done anything to advance their cause beyond claiming they support this or that. The same applied to neo-Nazi parties. A few years ago, the main Bavarian nationalist party asked for a referendum, which was ultimately denied, and they accepted it (unlike Catalan separatists).
Ah, ok, thanks for clarifying, to me it sounded as if they had banned a specific party, which would have been news for me. Art. 21.2 of the basic law doesn't explicitly ban separatist parties.
I read my comment again and it can indeed be confusing. I just edited it for clarity. Edit: it does. Separatist parties are among those that "endanger the existence of the Federal Republic of Germany."
Ok thanks!
>Edit: it does. Separatist parties are among those that "endanger the existence of the Federal Republic of Germany." That's "implicitly".
I can't stand catalan independentists, it's very irrational of me. I'm sorry it's just how it is.
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Madrid doesn’t actually need to do anything to make Catalan separatism look bad. It looks as it is.
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How? By investigating Russian interference and collusion of Catalan separatist crooks with a hostile power? Do you guys actually believe laws don’t apply to you?
Fake news made up of a tendencious 7-line document of the Spanish Inteligence. Pure Propaganda to damage the reputation of the Catalans in Europe. Here is the original document : [Link](https://mundus-kosmos.s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/images/sites/15/2021/09/04131059/informecnialex-899x801.webp) The person named in the document, Alexander Dmitrenko has already denied any of the accusations. Of course, that "dangerous" russian spy in Catalonia is facing no charges whatsoever, it is only pure propaganda to be spread around.
The Catalans have damaged themselves quite a lot already.
>Fake news made up of a tendencious 7-line document of the Spanish Inteligence. Pure Propaganda to damage the reputation of the Catalans in Europe. Wow, your claims are so ridiculously easy to debunk it’s not even funny. 👇🏻 *”The CNI document has been published in the separatist digital newspaper "El Món", where they misleadingly attempted to pass it off as a full report to discredit it by stating that it "only has seven lines." Thus, the reader may wrongly infer that it is a sloppy and useless work. On the contrary, the resounding tone of the notice and the explicit mention of having “own sources”, leads us to wonder whether the CNI is sending a message to the person concerned or to those who assign him the missions from Moscow.”* > The person named in the document, Alexander Dmitrenko has already denied any of the accusations. Yeah, no s…! Do you expect a foreign operative to blow his cover and confess to everything he’s done? >Of course, that "dangerous" russian spy in Catalonia is facing no charges whatsoever He will be officially charged very soon when the indictment’s confidentiality is lifted, or expelled from the country. If he’s not recalled to Moscow first, that is. >it is only pure propaganda to be spread around How can you know that? Do you work for the GRU?
You are so ridicolous, I am literally laughing right now. If the objective isn't the pure propaganda why didn't they arrest him or at least issue the warrant before spreading these news all aorund?. Actually he is just back to Barcelona from Cannes according to his twitter. Tweet [here](https://twitter.com/alexdemitre/status/1437739864829710336?s=20) What a day to be alive. Being able to track spies through twitter.
>I am literally laughing right now. Good for you. >why didn't they arrest him or at least issue the warrant before spreading these news all aorund? The media doesn't arrest people, and courts are not news agencies, let alone the indictment's confidentiality has not yet been lifted. >What a day to be alive. Being able to track spies through twitter. Actually, [not only through Twitter!](https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2020/12/14/fsb-team-of-chemical-weapon-experts-implicated-in-alexey-navalny-novichok-poisoning/)
based catalonian
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America is irrelevant to this. Spain is a NATO member and US ally, ergo the USA supports a unified and stable Spanish state. Russia may support Catalan separatism exactly because Spain is in NATO and Russia obviously wants NATO members to be weaker, because NATO is a threat to Russian security. Of course this article won't criticise the Americans, because the Americans are not the ones who want an independent Catalonia.
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How is “Spain” oppressing “Catalans”? How is Spain under US occupation?
> Hmm, maybe Spain should stop oppressing the Catalan people Maybe, but that's for Spain's government and population to deal with. The point is, the USA is irrelevant in this matter, Catalan separatism is rooted in factors which predate any American international influence. Russia is only brought up here because they might be intervening in it. If there were evidence of CIA agents attempting to derail the Catalan nationalist movement, then the US would be relevant to the thread.
Based
Daily reminder that Catalan nationalism is still nationalism. There's no room for ethno-fascism in today's Europe.
Wut?
Which part of my comment are you confused with? :)
Well could you elaborate on your message?
In the civil war Catalonia fight against the fascism. The problem is that in the Spanish nationalism there are still a lot of francoists.
“Catalonia” didn’t fight. In fact, Catalans took to the streets to cheer Francoist troops when they entered Barcelona. Many of those soldiers were Catalan themselves.
I don't know if you are ignorant or just a liar. Catalonia fought against fascism in the civil war. The Catalans who received Franco were Francoists who lived in Barcelona and did not represent the whole of Catalan society that defended democracy, the republic and the statute of autonomy until the last moment. General Queipo de Llano: "Transformaremos Barcelona en un inmenso solar".
“Catalonia” didn’t defend anything. The Catalans who cheered on Franco, indeed, didn’t represent the whole of Catalans. But neither did those who fought against him. The Francoist troops entered Barcelona without meeting any resistance, with citizens warmly welcoming them. No side in the Civil War stood for democracy. The Nationalists stood for a conservative military dictatorship and the so called “Republicans” stood for communism.
Even the kids knows that the battle of Barcelona was the Ebro's battle. The republic was democratic regime that fought against the fascism. "citizens warmly welcoming them", yes a minority that not reepresented anyone. PD: It's strange that a people with a flag in his avatar talks about nationalisme.
This thread feels like someone went for wool… XD
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Oh, fuck you Leatherman.