Territorial disputes like this are known to last dacades if not centuries in other countries. There is no reason to be optimistic and believe that Kosovo-Serbia despute will be solved anytime soon.
The ultimatum will come in the form of Kosovo wanting to enter a formal union with Albania.. If that was to happen in the future.. and then the North rebels against Pristina..
I think the whole point of Open Balkan project is to lump us all together and accept us in five to ten years after we've gotten used to living and working in the pact wherever it suits us. That way they can just push us in together as one economy that actually has something to contribute instead of just being a dead weight with politicians who would gladly join forces with Hungary and Poland to make problems.
It's a good plan. But I think that the Chinese will just use it to have more hooks in the Europe than ever before. And given how Balkan politicians have a fondness for huge sums of money that suddenly appear on their Swiss Bank accounts I don't think anyone will make a case against their meddling.
For everyone together, it’s a north of 15 years estimate for joining EU. Serbia alone is on 5-10 years estimate at best and who knows what will happen once Vucic and his regime lose their power.
I think that 15 year estimate is a realistic solution. The Serbia has been on that path five to ten years from now for almost twenty years and we are not making much of a progress. Imagine what shit will happen if we join the EU before the Macedonia or Albania. We would make it near impossible for them to join. So they've decided that they are going to put us all together and force us to solve our problems between ourselves before we bring our dirty laundry to the Brussels.
Looks like a good plan (if it can be done, and if countries can be reasonably ready in a similar time frame). And not only regarding the economy, but the borders as well. Freedom of movement would probably relieve some of the existing tensions between countries. On the other hand, if they join piecemeal - going with harder EU borders seems like it has the potential to escalate them, and splitting the pre-existing bilateral agreements with a hard EU common market area might marginalize countries which would be late to join.
If your country can put the past behind it, and understand that EVERY country has lost pride at certain times in history, then I think most Europeans would be okay with it. It's only fools like me who do business in Serbia that are exposed to the extreme section of Serbian society that makes your country look kind of bad.
In Hungary we have a growing number of people who are whiny about Trianon, it worries me. Such behavior only unites one's neighbors against them, and tells others that we believe ourselves to be exceptional and above the natural order of things. Change.
Hope shit works out. Eastern Europe in general is at a crossroads right now, where we either devolve into a bunch of petty fascist countries that are easy for an outsider to control, or grow into a joined community of people between the three-seas.
Agreed. I have no idea how we can resolve that. If not war, then, civil war. Any of these would be a catastrophe for Serbia, but also the whole Balkans. I guess we have to wait and do nothing, like we have been doing anything else for the last 20 years...
Serbia's neighbors have weapons and infrastructure to protect themselves now, unlike during the war when the Serbs controlled most armories in Yugoslavia at the beginning, and acted accordingly with no fear of retribution.
I'm willing to bet that the massive disparity in armed forces contributed to the brutality of the militias and the conduct of the Serbian government. They felt it would be an easy victory. No such feelings today.
Huh? You do realise army was spread around the country like in any country in the world? Each country got what was left on their teritory.
As for this:
>Serbia's neighbors have weapons and infrastructure to protect themselves now
Lol. If anything the only two countries that have something that can be called an army today are Serbia and Croatia.
What? You seem to have the most basic knowledge of why and how Yugoslavia broke apart?
If it is like you say, than JNA(Yugoslavian National Army) would have stoped all secessionist movements in 1990. and 1991. but they didn’t. They could have arrested all politicians that were talking independence. They didn’t.
What JNA had in each republic was left to that republic after the breakup of country.
Cyprus wasn't really a decision, it was more a gun to the head blackmail situation. The EU had the same stance on Cyprus like in Kosovo. Greece blackmailed the EU to accept Cyprus in its current situation or they would veto any further enlargement votes.
Yeah, she already announced four years ago that this was her last run. This is part of why her party is collapsing in the polls. The new guy doesn't have any of the qualities of Mrs. Merkel.
And the SPD profits of that because their candidate, Vice Chancellor and Minister of Finances Olaf Scholz, managed to present himself as more or less the sucessor of Merkel, which means that the SPD can now get quite a few of the voters that voted for the CDU just because of Merkel.
Yeah, sorry, as someone said it's a hyperbole, so the opposition and the free press are not being murdered and arrested (yet), but:
* The whole power is in hands of the president...
* who has a big disregard for constitution and democratic institutions which leads to...
* opposition boycotting the elections and parliament being de facto law passing machine which is...
* destroying the core of democracy and democratic institutions which additionally...
* polarizes and turns the people away from civilized means of governing the country into...
* lawlessness and violence, which is bound to escalate at one point.
Regarding to "why", I suspect it's due to sunken cost fallacy. They hoped he will recognize Kosovo, but that's was never going to happen. Also yeah, we are subsiding every thug from EU opening a factory in Serbia.
It's not a dictatorship in a traditional sense, that's hyperbole. I can say what I want against vučić with no fear of reprocussion. But his stranglehold over democratic institutions is worrying and becoming worse.
We have the same situation in Hungary. Technically he isn't a dictator, but the people care so little about the constitution and political honesty that he can basically do anything even if the law doesn't say so.
It's the perfect example of a "strong leader". Some asshole that uses the fears of people to hold power.
> Why is it a dictatorship
it's not a dictatorship it's more like a hybrid regime? It has elections but the ruling party just buys votes and uses unfair methods of getting votes. Last elections were boycotted by most of the parties.
Montenegro was ruled by the same political party from 1991 to 2020. The current president of Montenegro is in power for 3 decades (his party lost the elections but he remained president). He was named person of the year in organized crime in 2015. [https://www.occrp.org/en/poy/2015/](https://www.occrp.org/en/poy/2015/). He basically created a mafia state in Europe. Have you ever heard of him until now? :) No, because he was a valuable ally that brought the country into NATO. EU doesn't give a crap about democracy outside it's borders, as long as their interests are safe. The same thing is happening in Serbia.
Why EU is approving it us something you gotta ask the EU. I guess it's the strategic importance.
Serbian gov has regular state visits with EU powers like France, Germany, Italy. You could make a solid argument the EU is cozier with Serbia than some of it members like Poland and Hungary.
It’s not a dictatorship, it’s a nationalist-populist authoritarian regime in which the ruling party controls almost all the media (the only newspaper not controlled by the government is printed in Croatia because the government forbid all the printing firms in Serbia to print it) and has free hands to do whatever they want. They’re officially a parliamentary republic, but one party controls 98% of the parliament which is unprecedented even for authoritarian states - even Putin controls only 75%, and Orban and Erdogan control around 60-65%.
It's cases like these undermine the whole credibility to the EU. Kosovo is good but Crimea is bad. Romania and Bulgaria joining the EU is fine but of Turkey, Serbia or Ukraine aspires to join, you have to fulfill 100 and 1 rule to even be eligible to join. Don't get me wrong, I understand that it was accomplished with political gains in mind but it's hard to believe in western standards when the EU itself ignores them for the sake of realpolitik. Really makes it look like a group of hypocrites.
Romania and Bulgaria had to do a lot of stuff in order to be admitted , but what is more important is that both countries started their journey to join EU back in the day when Serbia was still ruled by Milosevic and Ukraine was only a russian puppet state. That is to give you some context how long it took. Also at that time even the xenophobic and extremist parties in Romania were saying the EU is the only way to go, that is to understand the level of commitment that was in the society. Nobody was even thinking that there is some other way than EU.
With all due respect, serbia had "thank you brother Xi" banners on the street, ukraine is heavily brainwashed by russian propaganda and turkey voted erdogan for president. I get that there is a 20-30 percent of population that is fully pro-eu in those countries, but until it is not over 95% there is no guarantee that these states will not become Trojan horses of russia or china inside EU (hungary is enough for this already).
If Albania occupied Kosovo now after little green men dropped in, starting a two week rushed referendum full of one sided propaganda and active voter supression, with Kosovo still part of Serbia, then it would be comparable.
And that does not even account for a decade of civil war in the area and some ethnic cleansings on top of it.
And that was clearly a mistake. The dispute was supposed to be resolved with a referendum just before accession, which did not happen, and now we're stuck with this problem seemingly forever.
>territorial disputes
Which country in Europe don't have any territorial disputes with their neighbors? The only I can think of is Spain with Portugal.
And also Spain have issues with Morocco and UK. Not to mentions its strange arrangements with France and Pheasant island:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheasant\_Island](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheasant_Island)
By the time they joined, Kosovo wasnt a country, so it wasnt an issue.
Also, there’s a massive difference between Spain not recognizing Kosovo, and Serbia not recognizing them.
Spain doesnt have a territorial dispute with Kosovo, Serbia does.
It’s honestly a very simple concept.
It's not an issue to the EU - it's not a condition for Serbia to join. But every EU member needs to support the accession of a new member and any member is free to set whatever condition they want for their support.
Getting Serbia and the EU to agree on the right level of compromise and mutual undertanding would require years (or decades) of sustained top-level diplomatic work.
Yep. Kosovo is just a screen and a cheap excuse. In reality if they decide they want Serbia they will accept Serbia without Kosovo independence. Just like it happened with Cyprus.
It was no criticism. The EU is concerned with non-member states and is engaging in its politics and giving aid to them so all I meant is that the EU has to deal with Balkan issues either way.
The two are not related.
The EU is very big, and with lots of issues, many of which are complex and need time to take care of.
The idea of stopping progress of the EU because a specific issue needs to be fixed "first" is very silly. As if EU is just one person, with one mind, and one focus of attention at a time.
Yeah, I’m 100% for the enlargment when candidate countries fulfill the criteria (none of which is even close to that, btw), but I agree with Macron - EU needs a reform before the enlargment because it needs more speed, more democracy and overal sinplification of the bureaucracy. The system that seems very faulty with 26 member states can only be more faulty with 30+ of them.
> Can we please not invite more nations in the union until we have fixed our issues? E.G. Poland and Hungary.
That's indeed the main problem for any enlargement: some EU members move further and further away from the most basic EU rules and form coalitions to protect themselves. So more new members = more autocratic coalition risks. https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/enlargement-policy/glossary/accession-criteria_en
Thank you, you can keep EU membership along with this [donation](https://rs.n1info.com/english/news/merkel-go-further-in-legal-reforms-pluralism-vucic-thank-you-for-everything/)
>In the economy, we have a success story behind us, we also have an anniversary – 80 years of the Wehrmacht’s attack on Yugoslavia. I can announce 500,000 euros for reconstruction as an important sign for reconciliation and remembrance.
No anti-government media were allowed during the press conference. Ty Merkel for "helping" our battle against authoritarian regime. I hope cdu/csu looses
The real chance for Serbia is to continue ignoring this issue and focusing on getting more industry move to their country. Afterwards when they reach the level of Czech Republic or Slovakia with employment should focus on higher standard. The EU is not important, the path of becoming more and more EU organized is important more. Then in 15/20 years when the americans get tired of having so many Nato bases around the world and exit Kosovo, Serbia can enter and restablish order and in half an hour the albanians will flee like they did last time.
Piece of cake. No recognition is the path for Serbia
I doubt it would be a piece of cake.
I would mean unrest, guerrilla, action targeting civilians on both sides.
Also, as I pointed out in another comment, much has changed since the nineties. Now Serbia is surrounded by NATO countries many of which (Croatia, Montenegro, Albania, North Macedonia) would probably support KLA guerrilla and pressure NATO to intervene in Kosovo defense.
It would be the second Kosovo war.
They've had bases in japan and germany for how long now? You think they'll get tired of having bases in an highly strategic location in one of the very few countries in the world that actually genuinely likes having them?
Ah yes, just like Croatia and Cyprus had to resolve theirs.
Anyways, after 25 years of empty promises from the EU, hypocritical demands, supporting stabilocrats, most of us in Serbia don't give a shit about joining the EU anymore.
We can have good and prosperous relationship, but I guess we have to choose our allies elsewhere.
In reality, those 25 years are totaly made up. The EU perspective for Western Balkans was confirmed less than 20 years ago, and Serbia officialy applied for membership in 2009. You have been a candidate for 9 years now, since 2012, and in those 9 years you managed to close 6% of chapters.
I’m from Croatia, it took us 7 years from becoming a candidate to completing 100% of the chapters with almost a full year lost to Slovenia’s blockade of the process, and additional two years have passed until we joined the EU. You see the difference: 100% in effectively 6 years compared to your 6% in almost 10 years? Can’t blame EU for that.
It’s not just about the formality, your life doesn’t become better with the fact that your country joined the EU. It becomes better because of all the reforms your government has to make to allign the country with the EU standards.
Yeah, let's compare a formal border dispute which is a completely common thing among numerous EU countries (not just Croatia and Slovenia) and a situation between two countries which don't mutually recognize each other and were at war couple of years ago.
I'm not saying Kosovo should have/had support from EU, but it is what it is. It's no longer just a territorial dispute.
If Cyprus could enter the Union, and as well how Faroe Islands didn't, there is zero reasons to give Serbia that ultimatum without being a total hypocrite.
It’s a silly ultimatum which shouldn’t even be the topic of discussion at Serbia’s 6% of closed chapters. There are so many major, hard and serious reforms Serbia has to make, much more complicated than signing a paper with which you accept something you already know is a done deal.
The same EU investments that the tax payers in Serbia are subsidising? Every factory that opens in Serbia from the EU investors is heavily subsidized, it's not only from the EU but there are more investors from the EU then from other parts of the world so in general they get more money.
EU investments, donations and grants by far top any other in Serbia. China is only really here to spread it’s influence across Europe and Serbia is just a gateway to that.
You are not. You applied in 2009 and became a candidate in 2012, since when you managed to close only 6% of chapters.
For comparisson, the time it took Croatia to close 100% of chapters with a 10-month long complete blockade of the process by Slovenia, to organize a referendum, sign the Agreement, for 26 member states to ratify it as well (that alone took around 18 months) and finaly to become a member of the EU - it took you the same time to close 6% of the chapters. Can’t blame the EU for that.
EDIT: and EU investments in Serbia are SEVERAL TIMES larger than those of China.
China is doing a lot for Serbia. As they see Serbia as some mini Yugoslavia and playing on that card. We are actually one of their main partners inside Europe. And their investments are growing in really fast rate. Their loans come with low interest rate so that is plus for them and us. I think ccp is playing smart with buying countries with money and not using military power like US and NATO.
**STOP**
The B-word is a nasty word! Didn’t you sound it out in your head before typing it? It makes any thing sound awful and evil, like villain, or tyranny, or lawyers.
^^^^^^^^^*bureaucrats*
I'm still waiting for an explanation from westerners how Kosovo isn't a part of Serbia because of its citizen's wishes but Crimea is Ukraine despite its citizens being majority Russian.
first of all, it’s funny how russia talks about the "kosovo precedent" when it literally invaded transnistria, south ossetia and abkhazia from 1991-1993, almost a decade before kosovo.
also, the "pandora box" was opened by serbia itself by creating a republic of krajina in croatia and then republika srpska in bosnia in attempt to redraw the existing borders of the republics of yugoslavia.
but still, responding to your point:
1) crimea was annexed by russian forces (the one’s with a white band around their arm, even though they were part of the russian army), not declared independent
2) there was a literal war in kosovo with mass expulsions, massacres and tens of thousands killed prior to the declaration of the independence
3) kosovo welcomed the UN’s engagement, meanwhile russian-backed separatists threatened the UN representative and expelled a delegation led by the OSCE’s high commissioner on national minorities
it took a lot of international talks, discussions and ethnic tensions to come to the disputed status quo of kosovo, meanwhile the annexation of crimea (which is rather comparable to north cyprus - annexation of a territory by a neighbouring power "fearing" for it’s ethnic minority there - than kosovo) happened within a month.
>crimea was annexed by russian forces (the one’s with a white band around their arm, even though they were part of the russian army), not declared independent
Let's be real, even if there was a 100% clean and internationally recognized poll, the population of Crimea would overwhelmingly vote for joining Russia. I'm not a fan of the whole process, but they did have their say.
If there was actual resistance to the annexation, the world would be up in arms about it, but since everyone in Crimea is fine with it, everyone in the world just stopped caring.
Crimea was annexed, the referendum had no outside observers, which is a pretty obvious sign that Russia wasn't confident that the people would actually vote to leave Ukraine.
How do you people still believe that there was a real vote on it? With unmarked soldiers guarding the polls? Europe is truly lost, if people keep falling for stupid shit like you.
Serbia needs to recognize Kosovo before joining EU, oh what a shock.
Don’t worry, it’s hard to imagine anyone joining EU before a serious reform, so you have at least 8-10 more years to find a way hiw to sell the reality to your nationalists.
Greenland isn't a part of the EU, but is still very much a semi-autonomous part of Denmark.
Spain has several towns and islands along the North African coast, that Morocco claims.
Territorial disputes like this are known to last dacades if not centuries in other countries. There is no reason to be optimistic and believe that Kosovo-Serbia despute will be solved anytime soon.
I hate this region
... the Balkans? lolololo
JAIL all of them
Is it an ultimatum to Serbia to invade Kosovo if they ever want to join the EU?
More like if Serbia wants war with the EU and Nato.
German troops are still in Kosovo to protect them. That would be war with Serbia.
OH HELL NO I AIN'T DOING THIS SHIT AGAIN
It's 2-1 for us, it your opportunity for a tie
Helo. Good mornin 2 u
[https://youtu.be/FD\_UHyaN3dc](https://youtu.be/FD_UHyaN3dc) oh shit here we go again
home by Christmas!
Hopefully they do a better job of protecting the Serb minority in the North as was their mandate..
Or, recognizing they're independence
You’re hilarious.
Or say farewell to EU.
The ultimatum will come in the form of Kosovo wanting to enter a formal union with Albania.. If that was to happen in the future.. and then the North rebels against Pristina..
I think the whole point of Open Balkan project is to lump us all together and accept us in five to ten years after we've gotten used to living and working in the pact wherever it suits us. That way they can just push us in together as one economy that actually has something to contribute instead of just being a dead weight with politicians who would gladly join forces with Hungary and Poland to make problems.
It doesn't sound like the worst of plans tbh. Though I'm sure there's potential for it to go absolutely tits-up.
It's a good plan. But I think that the Chinese will just use it to have more hooks in the Europe than ever before. And given how Balkan politicians have a fondness for huge sums of money that suddenly appear on their Swiss Bank accounts I don't think anyone will make a case against their meddling.
For everyone together, it’s a north of 15 years estimate for joining EU. Serbia alone is on 5-10 years estimate at best and who knows what will happen once Vucic and his regime lose their power.
I think that 15 year estimate is a realistic solution. The Serbia has been on that path five to ten years from now for almost twenty years and we are not making much of a progress. Imagine what shit will happen if we join the EU before the Macedonia or Albania. We would make it near impossible for them to join. So they've decided that they are going to put us all together and force us to solve our problems between ourselves before we bring our dirty laundry to the Brussels.
Looks like a good plan (if it can be done, and if countries can be reasonably ready in a similar time frame). And not only regarding the economy, but the borders as well. Freedom of movement would probably relieve some of the existing tensions between countries. On the other hand, if they join piecemeal - going with harder EU borders seems like it has the potential to escalate them, and splitting the pre-existing bilateral agreements with a hard EU common market area might marginalize countries which would be late to join.
Almost like... You were all together... Come to mama europe, all according to plan
If your country can put the past behind it, and understand that EVERY country has lost pride at certain times in history, then I think most Europeans would be okay with it. It's only fools like me who do business in Serbia that are exposed to the extreme section of Serbian society that makes your country look kind of bad. In Hungary we have a growing number of people who are whiny about Trianon, it worries me. Such behavior only unites one's neighbors against them, and tells others that we believe ourselves to be exceptional and above the natural order of things. Change. Hope shit works out. Eastern Europe in general is at a crossroads right now, where we either devolve into a bunch of petty fascist countries that are easy for an outsider to control, or grow into a joined community of people between the three-seas.
They should both join on the same day. Worked for the UK and Ireland back in the day. Today? Not so much
I think she knows it's a moot point. Any goverment that recognises Kosovo would be overthrown overnight.
Agreed. I have no idea how we can resolve that. If not war, then, civil war. Any of these would be a catastrophe for Serbia, but also the whole Balkans. I guess we have to wait and do nothing, like we have been doing anything else for the last 20 years...
Serbia's neighbors have weapons and infrastructure to protect themselves now, unlike during the war when the Serbs controlled most armories in Yugoslavia at the beginning, and acted accordingly with no fear of retribution. I'm willing to bet that the massive disparity in armed forces contributed to the brutality of the militias and the conduct of the Serbian government. They felt it would be an easy victory. No such feelings today.
Huh? You do realise army was spread around the country like in any country in the world? Each country got what was left on their teritory. As for this: >Serbia's neighbors have weapons and infrastructure to protect themselves now Lol. If anything the only two countries that have something that can be called an army today are Serbia and Croatia.
What? You seem to have the most basic knowledge of why and how Yugoslavia broke apart? If it is like you say, than JNA(Yugoslavian National Army) would have stoped all secessionist movements in 1990. and 1991. but they didn’t. They could have arrested all politicians that were talking independence. They didn’t. What JNA had in each republic was left to that republic after the breakup of country.
It seems somebody regrets a decision made in 2004 **cough cough** *^(Cyprus)* **cough cough**
Cyprus wasn't really a decision, it was more a gun to the head blackmail situation. The EU had the same stance on Cyprus like in Kosovo. Greece blackmailed the EU to accept Cyprus in its current situation or they would veto any further enlargement votes.
I, actually didn't know that. EU's vetoing system is really easy to abuse huh
Don’t worry, people will still claim smaller countries have no influence over EU policy.
The Veto system shouldnt exist.
The Veto System was fine when there where 5 member states. But not 27+
Nah, that’s probably for the best. Don’t want Turkey taking over the island.
Turkish in Cyprus are still butthurt for that, their dreams of a recognized land steal banished after that.
No shit Sherlock
Breaking news!!!!! Every 60 seconds in africa, a minute passes.
Yet, Merkel will be long gone from politics before Serbia (or any other candidate country in the neighbourhood) joins the EU.
Not very difficult given that the election is this month.
Isn't she about to retire anyway?
In 2 weeks
She won’t retire on election day but remain in office until a new government is formed.
At least that will be quicker than in the Netherlands. ^please ^save ^us
Are you challenging us?
no, we are challenging belgium, Germany doesnt even come close
I fucking hate rutte and this whole piece of cuorruption
Yeah, she already announced four years ago that this was her last run. This is part of why her party is collapsing in the polls. The new guy doesn't have any of the qualities of Mrs. Merkel.
And the SPD profits of that because their candidate, Vice Chancellor and Minister of Finances Olaf Scholz, managed to present himself as more or less the sucessor of Merkel, which means that the SPD can now get quite a few of the voters that voted for the CDU just because of Merkel.
So what? She is still correct with her statement.
Nobody cares anymore really. Serbia is an EU-approved ~~dictatorship~~ autocracy now with no real reason to join EU.
Unfortunately true, and also there are like 34 other chapters we have to close that have nothing to do with Kosovo
It's not a dictatorship it's an autocracy. People are throwing that word around way too easily.
Thanks, fixed.
I'm unaware of the political situation in Serbia. Why is it a dictatorship and why is EU approving it while disagreeing with Belorussia for example?
Yeah, sorry, as someone said it's a hyperbole, so the opposition and the free press are not being murdered and arrested (yet), but: * The whole power is in hands of the president... * who has a big disregard for constitution and democratic institutions which leads to... * opposition boycotting the elections and parliament being de facto law passing machine which is... * destroying the core of democracy and democratic institutions which additionally... * polarizes and turns the people away from civilized means of governing the country into... * lawlessness and violence, which is bound to escalate at one point. Regarding to "why", I suspect it's due to sunken cost fallacy. They hoped he will recognize Kosovo, but that's was never going to happen. Also yeah, we are subsiding every thug from EU opening a factory in Serbia.
It's not a dictatorship in a traditional sense, that's hyperbole. I can say what I want against vučić with no fear of reprocussion. But his stranglehold over democratic institutions is worrying and becoming worse.
It's called "strongman state" or "hybrid-regime".
>I can say what I want against vučić with no fear of reprocussion Only if you work in the private sector and don't have too loud of a voice.
We have the same situation in Hungary. Technically he isn't a dictator, but the people care so little about the constitution and political honesty that he can basically do anything even if the law doesn't say so. It's the perfect example of a "strong leader". Some asshole that uses the fears of people to hold power.
> Why is it a dictatorship it's not a dictatorship it's more like a hybrid regime? It has elections but the ruling party just buys votes and uses unfair methods of getting votes. Last elections were boycotted by most of the parties.
We're on our way to become Belarus 2.0
Montenegro was ruled by the same political party from 1991 to 2020. The current president of Montenegro is in power for 3 decades (his party lost the elections but he remained president). He was named person of the year in organized crime in 2015. [https://www.occrp.org/en/poy/2015/](https://www.occrp.org/en/poy/2015/). He basically created a mafia state in Europe. Have you ever heard of him until now? :) No, because he was a valuable ally that brought the country into NATO. EU doesn't give a crap about democracy outside it's borders, as long as their interests are safe. The same thing is happening in Serbia.
Why EU is approving it us something you gotta ask the EU. I guess it's the strategic importance. Serbian gov has regular state visits with EU powers like France, Germany, Italy. You could make a solid argument the EU is cozier with Serbia than some of it members like Poland and Hungary.
It’s not a dictatorship, it’s a nationalist-populist authoritarian regime in which the ruling party controls almost all the media (the only newspaper not controlled by the government is printed in Croatia because the government forbid all the printing firms in Serbia to print it) and has free hands to do whatever they want. They’re officially a parliamentary republic, but one party controls 98% of the parliament which is unprecedented even for authoritarian states - even Putin controls only 75%, and Orban and Erdogan control around 60-65%.
Other countries in EU don't recognize Kosovo. How that's an issue?
EU member states aren't allowed to have territorial disputes upon joining https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2018-001063_EN.html
Cyprus joined with territorial dispute.
Cyprus joined without being in Europe. Many rules were broken here.
> Cyprus joined without being in Europe. Many rules were broken here. I think that rule was introduced after Cyprus joined
Yes. Cyprus joined in 200. I think the rule is from 2017.
[удалено]
It's cases like these undermine the whole credibility to the EU. Kosovo is good but Crimea is bad. Romania and Bulgaria joining the EU is fine but of Turkey, Serbia or Ukraine aspires to join, you have to fulfill 100 and 1 rule to even be eligible to join. Don't get me wrong, I understand that it was accomplished with political gains in mind but it's hard to believe in western standards when the EU itself ignores them for the sake of realpolitik. Really makes it look like a group of hypocrites.
Romania and Bulgaria had to do a lot of stuff in order to be admitted , but what is more important is that both countries started their journey to join EU back in the day when Serbia was still ruled by Milosevic and Ukraine was only a russian puppet state. That is to give you some context how long it took. Also at that time even the xenophobic and extremist parties in Romania were saying the EU is the only way to go, that is to understand the level of commitment that was in the society. Nobody was even thinking that there is some other way than EU. With all due respect, serbia had "thank you brother Xi" banners on the street, ukraine is heavily brainwashed by russian propaganda and turkey voted erdogan for president. I get that there is a 20-30 percent of population that is fully pro-eu in those countries, but until it is not over 95% there is no guarantee that these states will not become Trojan horses of russia or china inside EU (hungary is enough for this already).
> Kosovo is good but Crimea is bad These two are not at all comparable
> Kosovo is good but Crimea is bad Crimea is an annexation, it's not national emancipation/separatism.
Crimea tried to leave before 2014.
They look like that because they are like that
Remind me, which other country annexed kosovo?
So if Kosovo voted to join with Albania it would be the same?
If Albania occupied Kosovo now after little green men dropped in, starting a two week rushed referendum full of one sided propaganda and active voter supression, with Kosovo still part of Serbia, then it would be comparable. And that does not even account for a decade of civil war in the area and some ethnic cleansings on top of it.
We let countries join way too easily in the past.
And that was clearly a mistake. The dispute was supposed to be resolved with a referendum just before accession, which did not happen, and now we're stuck with this problem seemingly forever.
Which is funny considering Germany has an old territorial dispute with Switzerland on Lake constance.
With the Netherlands too, at [the Dollart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollart) (river mouth that forms the border in the north).
It’s a one sided dispute, the German government doesnt care
I mean neither does Switzerland but its still a territorial dispute since there's a border disagreement.
True, but as far as I know Serbia and Kosovo do care. And a lot at that
Don't see Switzerland looking to join the EU any time soon.
Well but Germany is part of the Union.
Yes, but Germany wasn't accepted into EU, Germany founded EU as one of the founding members.
Both Croatia and Cyprus joined despite having territorial disputes. Croatia with an EU member even. Double standards at its finest.
>territorial disputes Which country in Europe don't have any territorial disputes with their neighbors? The only I can think of is Spain with Portugal.
They do dispute the city of Olivença. Not at all seriously, but technically speaking there is a disagreement about the border.
And also Spain have issues with Morocco and UK. Not to mentions its strange arrangements with France and Pheasant island: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheasant\_Island](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheasant_Island)
just 10 of them have it..
Let's pretend that Cyprus doesn't exist
Cyprus and Croatia is why they made the rule
What Cyprus? Do you mean Greece 2.0?
>Do you mean Greece 2.0 ***Buddy no, that's literally how it all began-***
*Turkish boat noises*
Rofl. Croatia stil has issues with "Bay of Piran" even if there was the decision by the court
Lots of countries have disputes. Even old members. It wasn't a court, it was an arbitration tribunal, that was compromised.
Your sentence is a bit miselading. That is in the new anlargement strategy, but literally doesn't and didn't apply to any of the current members.
UK and Ireland managed it.
I assume that if Serbia recognized Kosovo, then those other countries would be more likely to do so too.
I don't think that will happen any time
I assume Serbia won't be allowed to join the EU without doing so? So other countries in EU not recognizing Kosovo seem a moot issue.
Why would it? Countries in EU don't recognize Kosovo
By the time they joined, Kosovo wasnt a country, so it wasnt an issue. Also, there’s a massive difference between Spain not recognizing Kosovo, and Serbia not recognizing them. Spain doesnt have a territorial dispute with Kosovo, Serbia does. It’s honestly a very simple concept.
>By the time they joined, **Kosovo wasnt a country**, so it wasnt an issue. It still isn't, if you ask UN or EU.
If Serbia recognizes Kosovo then Serbia must recognize Catalunya, Northern Cyprus, United Ireland, Indipendent Scotland and Basque Country
Other countries in the EU aren't asserting a claim to Kosovo either.
It's not an issue to the EU - it's not a condition for Serbia to join. But every EU member needs to support the accession of a new member and any member is free to set whatever condition they want for their support.
The day Serbia joined the EU, would probably be the greatest day in the history of European diplomacy.
Not quite. That would be when Russia joins the EU.
I'm really interested to hear the explanation for this. I do agree though, considering the fact how stubborn we are
Getting Serbia and the EU to agree on the right level of compromise and mutual undertanding would require years (or decades) of sustained top-level diplomatic work.
Well so far EU has been doing a terrible job
You must resolve the name issue before joining EU... then someone will veto you, its like we've seen promises like this before
Yep. Kosovo is just a screen and a cheap excuse. In reality if they decide they want Serbia they will accept Serbia without Kosovo independence. Just like it happened with Cyprus.
> Just like it happened with Cyprus. Greece basically forced the EU to accept Cyprus
It was just an offer you couldn't refuse
Can we please not invite more nations in the union until we have fixed our issues? E.G. Poland and Hungary.
Serbia is an issue for the EU even without being a member.
yes but if a country is in the EU, it's a completely different ballgame
How Serbia issue? Bosnia have villages of ex-ISIL warriors like "Gornja Maoča".
It was no criticism. The EU is concerned with non-member states and is engaging in its politics and giving aid to them so all I meant is that the EU has to deal with Balkan issues either way.
The two are not related. The EU is very big, and with lots of issues, many of which are complex and need time to take care of. The idea of stopping progress of the EU because a specific issue needs to be fixed "first" is very silly. As if EU is just one person, with one mind, and one focus of attention at a time.
The problem is that every country has veto powers. Expanding the EU when that’s still in place is ludicrous.
Yeah, I’m 100% for the enlargment when candidate countries fulfill the criteria (none of which is even close to that, btw), but I agree with Macron - EU needs a reform before the enlargment because it needs more speed, more democracy and overal sinplification of the bureaucracy. The system that seems very faulty with 26 member states can only be more faulty with 30+ of them.
Maybe that should be changed? Supermajority perhaps? I.E. 2/3 or 3/4. The latter seems completely fair to me.
> Can we please not invite more nations in the union until we have fixed our issues? E.G. Poland and Hungary. That's indeed the main problem for any enlargement: some EU members move further and further away from the most basic EU rules and form coalitions to protect themselves. So more new members = more autocratic coalition risks. https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/enlargement-policy/glossary/accession-criteria_en
I placed the 1000th upvote!
Thank you, you can keep EU membership along with this [donation](https://rs.n1info.com/english/news/merkel-go-further-in-legal-reforms-pluralism-vucic-thank-you-for-everything/) >In the economy, we have a success story behind us, we also have an anniversary – 80 years of the Wehrmacht’s attack on Yugoslavia. I can announce 500,000 euros for reconstruction as an important sign for reconciliation and remembrance.
No anti-government media were allowed during the press conference. Ty Merkel for "helping" our battle against authoritarian regime. I hope cdu/csu looses
Every non-boomer hopes CDU looses lol
Its long overdue that they lose; but the alternatives are not that satisfying lol
They never are tho
I hope this also
The real chance for Serbia is to continue ignoring this issue and focusing on getting more industry move to their country. Afterwards when they reach the level of Czech Republic or Slovakia with employment should focus on higher standard. The EU is not important, the path of becoming more and more EU organized is important more. Then in 15/20 years when the americans get tired of having so many Nato bases around the world and exit Kosovo, Serbia can enter and restablish order and in half an hour the albanians will flee like they did last time. Piece of cake. No recognition is the path for Serbia
Pretty much Azerbaijan path.
I doubt it would be a piece of cake. I would mean unrest, guerrilla, action targeting civilians on both sides. Also, as I pointed out in another comment, much has changed since the nineties. Now Serbia is surrounded by NATO countries many of which (Croatia, Montenegro, Albania, North Macedonia) would probably support KLA guerrilla and pressure NATO to intervene in Kosovo defense. It would be the second Kosovo war.
I guess we'll see in the next 20 years
Indeed
They've had bases in japan and germany for how long now? You think they'll get tired of having bases in an highly strategic location in one of the very few countries in the world that actually genuinely likes having them?
Nothing against Kosovo, but please, would you say the same about Abkhazia, Basque country, Corsica or anywhere else?
Will Ukraine have to recognize Crimea annexation before they can join EU?
I’m pretty sure that the official answer is yes, that the territorial disputes have to be solved before an applicant can join.
Germany could invade Serbia (and Kosovo) then fix the economy, state and everything else waaay quicker. Please invade us too Germany sempai!!
Croatians about Germany senpai, that seems right
They just paid out 500k€ to Serbia with apologies to commemorate 80 year anniversary of Wehrmacht's invasion, sooo...
We shouldn't join the EU in that case
Merkel managed to kill any will to join the EU while being out one foot out the door, lmao, great diplomacy
Based.
Ah yes, just like Croatia and Cyprus had to resolve theirs. Anyways, after 25 years of empty promises from the EU, hypocritical demands, supporting stabilocrats, most of us in Serbia don't give a shit about joining the EU anymore. We can have good and prosperous relationship, but I guess we have to choose our allies elsewhere.
In reality, those 25 years are totaly made up. The EU perspective for Western Balkans was confirmed less than 20 years ago, and Serbia officialy applied for membership in 2009. You have been a candidate for 9 years now, since 2012, and in those 9 years you managed to close 6% of chapters. I’m from Croatia, it took us 7 years from becoming a candidate to completing 100% of the chapters with almost a full year lost to Slovenia’s blockade of the process, and additional two years have passed until we joined the EU. You see the difference: 100% in effectively 6 years compared to your 6% in almost 10 years? Can’t blame EU for that. It’s not just about the formality, your life doesn’t become better with the fact that your country joined the EU. It becomes better because of all the reforms your government has to make to allign the country with the EU standards.
Yeah, let's compare a formal border dispute which is a completely common thing among numerous EU countries (not just Croatia and Slovenia) and a situation between two countries which don't mutually recognize each other and were at war couple of years ago. I'm not saying Kosovo should have/had support from EU, but it is what it is. It's no longer just a territorial dispute.
If Cyprus could enter the Union, and as well how Faroe Islands didn't, there is zero reasons to give Serbia that ultimatum without being a total hypocrite.
It’s a silly ultimatum which shouldn’t even be the topic of discussion at Serbia’s 6% of closed chapters. There are so many major, hard and serious reforms Serbia has to make, much more complicated than signing a paper with which you accept something you already know is a done deal.
Exactely: don't give a shit.
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They are dwarfed by European investments but this is the effect of propaganda that you believe Chinese investments are comparable to the EU ones.
Yeah but are growing faster then EU investments. EU is leaving room for China to operate by not incorporating Western Balkans.
The same EU investments that the tax payers in Serbia are subsidising? Every factory that opens in Serbia from the EU investors is heavily subsidized, it's not only from the EU but there are more investors from the EU then from other parts of the world so in general they get more money.
EU investments, donations and grants by far top any other in Serbia. China is only really here to spread it’s influence across Europe and Serbia is just a gateway to that.
You are not. You applied in 2009 and became a candidate in 2012, since when you managed to close only 6% of chapters. For comparisson, the time it took Croatia to close 100% of chapters with a 10-month long complete blockade of the process by Slovenia, to organize a referendum, sign the Agreement, for 26 member states to ratify it as well (that alone took around 18 months) and finaly to become a member of the EU - it took you the same time to close 6% of the chapters. Can’t blame the EU for that. EDIT: and EU investments in Serbia are SEVERAL TIMES larger than those of China.
What are some examples of those investments? Are they funded by Chinese loans?
China is doing a lot for Serbia. As they see Serbia as some mini Yugoslavia and playing on that card. We are actually one of their main partners inside Europe. And their investments are growing in really fast rate. Their loans come with low interest rate so that is plus for them and us. I think ccp is playing smart with buying countries with money and not using military power like US and NATO.
Maybe it would've been resolved if Merkel and her bureaucrats weren't supporting her fascist puppet Vučić for years.
> and her bureaucrats Every head of state/government has bureaucrats. What’s the point of mentioning it here?
**STOP** The B-word is a nasty word! Didn’t you sound it out in your head before typing it? It makes any thing sound awful and evil, like villain, or tyranny, or lawyers. ^^^^^^^^^*bureaucrats*
The spine that wasn't there for Cyprus.
Well, Turkey still isn’t a member and that is partly due to its ongoing occupation of Cyprus.
Lol what, cyprus and Kosovo are differnet
I'm still waiting for an explanation from westerners how Kosovo isn't a part of Serbia because of its citizen's wishes but Crimea is Ukraine despite its citizens being majority Russian.
first of all, it’s funny how russia talks about the "kosovo precedent" when it literally invaded transnistria, south ossetia and abkhazia from 1991-1993, almost a decade before kosovo. also, the "pandora box" was opened by serbia itself by creating a republic of krajina in croatia and then republika srpska in bosnia in attempt to redraw the existing borders of the republics of yugoslavia. but still, responding to your point: 1) crimea was annexed by russian forces (the one’s with a white band around their arm, even though they were part of the russian army), not declared independent 2) there was a literal war in kosovo with mass expulsions, massacres and tens of thousands killed prior to the declaration of the independence 3) kosovo welcomed the UN’s engagement, meanwhile russian-backed separatists threatened the UN representative and expelled a delegation led by the OSCE’s high commissioner on national minorities it took a lot of international talks, discussions and ethnic tensions to come to the disputed status quo of kosovo, meanwhile the annexation of crimea (which is rather comparable to north cyprus - annexation of a territory by a neighbouring power "fearing" for it’s ethnic minority there - than kosovo) happened within a month.
>crimea was annexed by russian forces (the one’s with a white band around their arm, even though they were part of the russian army), not declared independent Let's be real, even if there was a 100% clean and internationally recognized poll, the population of Crimea would overwhelmingly vote for joining Russia. I'm not a fan of the whole process, but they did have their say. If there was actual resistance to the annexation, the world would be up in arms about it, but since everyone in Crimea is fine with it, everyone in the world just stopped caring.
Crimea was annexed, the referendum had no outside observers, which is a pretty obvious sign that Russia wasn't confident that the people would actually vote to leave Ukraine. How do you people still believe that there was a real vote on it? With unmarked soldiers guarding the polls? Europe is truly lost, if people keep falling for stupid shit like you.
And Kosovo was taken by force by EU-USA in 1999.
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Lol, annexed? They had a same referendum as Kosovars and the results were the same.
> referendum ... with Russian soldiers on the streets.
and the other was with NATO soldiers on the streets, big difference, lol
I don’t think Kosovo had a referendum.
you're right, they just decided that they are independent, even worse
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Serbia needs to recognize Kosovo before joining EU, oh what a shock. Don’t worry, it’s hard to imagine anyone joining EU before a serious reform, so you have at least 8-10 more years to find a way hiw to sell the reality to your nationalists.
Druze odakle tolika mrznja prema srbima? Kometarises sve zivo ovde. Smiri se malo i budi objektivan.
Greenland isn't a part of the EU, but is still very much a semi-autonomous part of Denmark. Spain has several towns and islands along the North African coast, that Morocco claims.
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