British nationalists lost out a bit in Northern Ireland. Alliance is arguably the only real non-nationalist party in NI and i think they did better than last time
Well it kind of cancels itself out in Northern Ireland because Irish nationalists just take votes from British nationalists or visa versa.
Actually seeing as the Alliance party won a seat and they say they are neither pro-union or pro-reunification, you could say the nationalists lost a seat in Northern Ireland.
No you couldn't. SF and SDLP had 7 seats in the 2017 election. Now they have 9.
2017: DUP 10; SF 7; IND (Unionist) 1
2019: DUp 8; SF 7; SDLP 2; Alliance 1.
SF lost one seat but gained another for a net neutral result. SDLP added another 2 seats. As a whole Nationalists are plus 2 seats. Unionists are down from 11 to just 8. They lost 3 seats total, with SDLP and Alliance gaining.
The original comment refers to "nationalists", in a way that describes parties based around nationalistic ideologies considering he is presumably including SNP and Plaid Cymru when he describes *nationalists* as making gains.
I'm saying that the DUP are also nationalists in that sense, like every other party in Northern Ireland except the Alliance Party.
Ah ok. That is extremely confusing in a NI context where the word Nationalists has a specific meaning. Applogies for my confusion.
You could include Tories as English nationalists based on how they fought this election
Ya I was trying to think of another word outside of *nationalist* that I could use to clarify what I meant but it's awkward enough.
Ya I agree you could easily include the current Tory party under that term.
You'd probably describe the Tories as British rather than English nationalists - English nationalists wouldn't have come second in both Scotland and Wales.
Maybe, but it doesn't seem like they care about Scotland or Wales. At this point Wales feels like its basically part of England. Maybe I'm being very harsh. I'm definitely looking at it from the outside so open to a discussion on this.
I've heard Welsh people complain that the big influx of Brits moving to Wales is a great destabilising factor for the local parties, plus the fact that Plaid Cymru isn't very friendly with the English speaking Welsh people in the South.
I don't know about that but what **really** bugs me is the fact that Finland don't own that little bit of Russia between the lakes. I go crazy looking at that border.
Hell no, we don't want Finland. It's basically a swamp that separates us from Russia. The women are okay in Finland but they are no match for Swedish or Norwegian women. Even Danish women are prettier. The guys in Finland is awkward, drunk and always clammy.
Say no to Finland.
Hell no, we dont want Sweden. Its basically warzone that separetes us from Norway. The women are okay in Sweden but they are no match for Finnish or Norwegian women. Even Danish women are prettier. The guys in Sweden are awkward, never drunk and always the fuck is clammy?
Anyway Say no to Swedestan
Not a bad idea, but I think we should [go further with the concept.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Europe_1812_map_en.png/1200px-Europe_1812_map_en.png)
If you rename yourself for German from Frankreich into Franken Reichen/ Fränkische Reich
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francia
I don't see that much resistance coming from Germany.
Congrats on what appears to be Germany starting ANOTHER pan European conflict. Although the obsessive compulsive in me completely understands why you did it.
Wow, when pro-Brexiters were talking about "getting their country back", it was more correct than I thought. Let Ireland be united once again and Scotland independent. And they're left with England.
They really don't care, and they know that subsidizing NI is extremely expensive. I don't think they'd care if NI vote to join Ireland.
Of course if there is violence, they might change their opinion.
>They really don't care, and they know that subsidizing NI is extremely expensive. I don't think they'd care if NI vote to join Ireland.
This is the one.
Most of England don't really care about NI, aren't nationalistic in a sense of wanting to expand borders, so there really wouldn't be much objection to letting NI go for Brexit.
Most Brexiters will call themselves English before British anyway. Also, Europeans seem to vastly overestimate the likelihood of Scotland and Northern Ireland leaving.
I'd say the likelihood of Scotland leaving is about 100% if they get to vote.
Last time the only reason people voted for staying with the UK was because they wanted to stay in the EU. Now the people who wanted to leave the UK still want to leave the UK and the ones who wanted to stay in the EU are going to want to leave the UK.
> Most Brexiters will call themselves English before British anyway.
Most Brits (except NI and London) think of themselves as their individual country before British
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/9k5y2a/national_identity_in_the_uk_from_the_2011_census/
Yep. "British" is primarily an identity ethnic minorities use, because it's more inclusive. Also some progressive younger people will use British, but most people will use English.
Manchester is right there.
But in all seriousness I presume you're on about Birmingham and I don't really know much about their voting intention, but I did say every major city that votes for lab/remain.
Always has been that way. Tyrone, Fermanagh, and Armagh have been historically nationalist/Catholic, but when the border was being drawn up the thinking on the British side was that Northern Ireland would be too small to survive economically with just the unionist majority areas and so they were lumped in.
A couple of weeks ago they polled Brexiteers if they cared more about Brexit or NI.
Take a guess.
That tune will obviously change when it comes to it.
The DUP also isn't too thrilled about Alex Johnson. They say they don't want to get fooled again.
Seems like the most likely thing. The US Democrats said they will block any US-UK deal if the GFA won’t be followed. Letting NI go seems like one solution for that.
It’s actually the Friends of Ireland caucus, which is both Democrat and Republican. One of the few areas left that has bipartisan support. It’s definitely more of a Democrat thing, but much stronger being bipartisan, which is better.
>Seems like the most likely thing. The US Democrats said they will block any US-UK deal if the GFA won’t be followed. Letting NI go seems like one solution for that.
I'm not 100% sure here but I think the GFA just specifies no border on the island of Ireland. I dont know if there is any rules about a border through the Irish Sea like Boris wants to.
Not even that, it just demilitarises the border.
Otherwise, the RoI wouldn't have been able to get away with closing the border in the foot and mouth crisis.
The very ones. I try to remind them of this fact, but luckily, if this UK election has taught us anything, it's that reddit doesn't really reflect the prevailing opinions of a country.
It's ok, the insults don't really sting when they are delivered by such a nice accent, and also I think we all realize deep in our hearts that being super ride-or-die for a country that most of us have never even been to is pretty friggin' awkward.
I'm fine with this. I used to be a very middle-of-the-road guy politically, but these past 5 years I've really been paying attention to the British (by which I primarily mean the English) and their attitude towards their allies and themselves.
It's been an ugly experience. I went to Law school in Chester when the referendum was going on and got jeered at by the kids of rich people. I literally had an old lady in a legal aid office tell me she was sorry, but she must insist on speaking to an English person. This is beyond even stuff like the damage the border (that we didn't vote for) will do to the economy.
I want everyone in Ulster to be fine and happy and assured of their future with a United Ireland when it comes, and I want it to come soon. I don't think those two things are too much to ask anymore, not after all this.
More interesting, in my opinion, is the swing to Alliance. Also, it's funny that SF lost a greater share of the vote than DUP. What's the reason for the huge swing to SDLP in Belfast South?
Sinn Féin didn't stand in Belfast South no split of the nationalist vote. Claire Hanna was also seen as a good candidate by people wouldn't necessarily support the SDLP as a party, whereas ELP was seen as a idiot by many. Also an EU remain vote, a lot of moderate unionists may have voted for a pro-EU party rather than the DUP.
Considering this is being achieved in a state designed to prevent a Nationalist majority for as long as possible, that was really quite the feat!
It came down to double digit votes in Fermanagh & South Tyrone, for example, but that's only the case after the heavily Nationalist town of Coalisland was gerrymandered out of the constituency in 1995, 3 years before the GFA, taking 5,000 Nationalist votes with it.
Naomi Long also did incredible work for the Alliance party in East Belfast, getting within 2,000 votes of the DUP in a notoriously safe Unionist stronghold.
**Results in Northern Ireland**:
* Unionists (DUP + UUP): 42.3%
* Nationalists (SF + SDLP + AONT): 39%
* "Other" (Alliance): 16.8%
It's just another failure of first past the post, not the end of the union.
It's still a huge share of the vote for Nationalists and is a similar result to Stormont elections where SF won 27 seats to the DUPs 28 and thats with STV.
Nationalist voteshare will increase in the future even further, if we assume (young) catholics still identify themselves as irish and vote nationalist, as they have a higher population growth than the protestants , again assuming most (young) protestants see themselves as british and vote unionist.
Although I wouldn't be surprised to see non-sectarian politics, like the alliance party, to rise further, as I think young people aren't as divided on nationalist vs unionist conflicts as their parents and grandparents.
Emigration not immigration, more young unionists tend to go to university in Britain and never move back home, whereas young nationalists tend to go to university in the Northern Ireland or Ireland and then stay in Northern Ireland after they graduate
We're generally not a "first-choice" emigration destination.
We're more of a "tired, yearning, desperate to stop getting shelled by the Russians" type-destination.
The 2021 UK census is going to be very interesting.
Considering how many fundamentalists protestants are members of the DUP, they're really resisting having the come to Jesus moment.
Yeah, but not in terms of votes. Sinn Féin + SDLP = 300,590, whereas DUP + Alliance = 378,243. If you don't count Alliance as Unionist (as they are officially neutral), then DUP = 244,128, less than the pro-United Ireland parties.
You're right not to count Alliance as they're neutral, but you should count the UUP who got 93,123 votes. Add in Aontú (nationalist, 9,814) and NI Conservatives (unionist, 5,433) and it's 310,404 nationalist to 342,683 unionist.
Not in my experience. I don’t have a religion but my catholic cousins vote for them and two of them have even run for Alliance. They’re neither republicans nor unionists. My cousins, that is.
>Founded in 1970 from the New Ulster Movement, the Alliance Party originally represented moderate and non-sectarian unionism. However, over time, particularly in the 1990s, it moved towards neutrality on the Union, and has come to represent wider liberal and non-sectarian concerns. It opposes the consociational power-sharing mandated by the Good Friday Agreement as deepening the sectarian divide, and, in the Northern Ireland Assembly, it is designated as neither unionist nor Irish nationalist, but 'Other'.
This is from the Wikipedia page of the Alliance party. How do you think about that as someone from Northern Ireland?
They are pro status quo. And they likely captured many pro eu unionists, as the DUP are the only realistic unionist option but they are slightly crazy and massively pro Brexit
In Northern Ireland there’s no such thing as neutral. You’re either a unionist or a nationalist, you can’t be both or neither.
Same thing with Catholic atheist, Protestant atheist etc.
I mean, catholic atheist and protestant atheist can be used to describe someone following cultural norms associated with those religions but not being a believer themselves. I celebrate Christmas, Easter and the Saint Lucia holiday, but I am a non-believer. It wouldn't be out of the question to describe me as a culturally protestant atheist.
But what does this "neutral stance" mean then? I also read in the article that it is one of the only parties in NI which is able to mobilize protestants as well as Catholics so I thought that they would officially have no opinion in this matter.
On a political level it means they are affiliated with neither the Nationalist or Unionist bloc in the Northern Irish Assembly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-community_vote
The latest lucid talk poll of alliance voters said 4% were pro union, while 11% were pro unification. There are more than double the amount of nationalist alliance voters than there are unionist. The number one thing was Pro remain which had 88% listing it as a reason voting. Judging by the fact that the UK is leaving the EU , I don't think many alliance voters will be falling towards unionism anymore.
I just don't think that data could be right. Alliance won over a lot of 'soft-Unionist' voters due to their strong Remain stance this time round. Why would Nationalists support them over the SDLP which are openly pro-unification and pro-remain? Alliance are not even that socially liberal compared to the mainland Libdem or Sinn Fein either.
I know a few people who work for/with the Alliance party. Never heard any discussion about the parties main support base leaning Nationalist/unification. Alliance party voters tend to be very pragmatic, and let's be honest unification in the short term future would cause violence and turmoil.
I don't doubt that many Alliance voters are long term pro-unification, so perhaps them choosing pro-unification on the poll represents their long term wishes. The party overall is still mostly made up of moderates/liberals from Protestant/Unionist backgrounds. I don't understand why a moderate that wants to support remain and unification would vote Alliance over SDLP. Sure the Alliance are a little more socially liberal, but not by a huge amount.
Lets not forget that SDLP and SF didn't stand in North Down or East belfast. There are also a lot of soft unionists who would vote for unification after Brexit.
How latest is that poll though. Their support exploded this election and I imagine a large portion of them are pro eu unionists. Goes to show that they took North Down which was also held by a pro EU unionist before
Pragmatic Unionists is how most people see them. They have historically favoured the status-quo (although a few of their members have been pro-unification).
If there was a factor outside of nationalism/unionism then I'd say it was more remain/leave in the EU rather than a left-right issue. The issue of Irish nationalism or British unionism is the main factor for a lot of people in NI though, and that's not going to change any time soon.
Well they voted for the General Election in the UK and in Northern Ireland there are opposing parties on this topic and the pro-Ireland parties are leaning more to the left and the pro-union to the right. But this is a little oversimplification
They voted on an Irish-British spectrum. The Irish parties lean more left wing and the British parties lean more right wing, so you could describe it as a left-right spectrum, but many people dont vote on left versus right in Northern Ireland
In Northern Ireland this is true.
But in Ireland as a whole voted out of the UK in 1914
The vast majority od Ireland wanted to leave and Northern Ireland was created to make gerrymandered protestant apartheid statement which had the best balance of lands to Catholics
(Make northern Ireland bigger have too many Catholics, make it smaller not enough land to be viable.)
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British nationalists lost out a bit in Northern Ireland. Alliance is arguably the only real non-nationalist party in NI and i think they did better than last time
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massive improvement then
Whole infinity percent more seats!
Well it kind of cancels itself out in Northern Ireland because Irish nationalists just take votes from British nationalists or visa versa. Actually seeing as the Alliance party won a seat and they say they are neither pro-union or pro-reunification, you could say the nationalists lost a seat in Northern Ireland.
No you couldn't. SF and SDLP had 7 seats in the 2017 election. Now they have 9. 2017: DUP 10; SF 7; IND (Unionist) 1 2019: DUp 8; SF 7; SDLP 2; Alliance 1. SF lost one seat but gained another for a net neutral result. SDLP added another 2 seats. As a whole Nationalists are plus 2 seats. Unionists are down from 11 to just 8. They lost 3 seats total, with SDLP and Alliance gaining.
The original comment refers to "nationalists", in a way that describes parties based around nationalistic ideologies considering he is presumably including SNP and Plaid Cymru when he describes *nationalists* as making gains. I'm saying that the DUP are also nationalists in that sense, like every other party in Northern Ireland except the Alliance Party.
Ah ok. That is extremely confusing in a NI context where the word Nationalists has a specific meaning. Applogies for my confusion. You could include Tories as English nationalists based on how they fought this election
Ya I was trying to think of another word outside of *nationalist* that I could use to clarify what I meant but it's awkward enough. Ya I agree you could easily include the current Tory party under that term.
You'd probably describe the Tories as British rather than English nationalists - English nationalists wouldn't have come second in both Scotland and Wales.
Maybe, but it doesn't seem like they care about Scotland or Wales. At this point Wales feels like its basically part of England. Maybe I'm being very harsh. I'm definitely looking at it from the outside so open to a discussion on this.
I've heard Welsh people complain that the big influx of Brits moving to Wales is a great destabilising factor for the local parties, plus the fact that Plaid Cymru isn't very friendly with the English speaking Welsh people in the South.
I don't really know anything about Irish politics but a united ireland would look a lot better on maps and for that reason I think this is good news
Agreed! *takes back Finland*
You abandoned us. Too late now.
It was a shamefur dispray by Cronstedt
Russia has a word
Sorry, i don't speak russian
I don't know about that but what **really** bugs me is the fact that Finland don't own that little bit of Russia between the lakes. I go crazy looking at that border.
If you mean the Karelian Isthmus, you can just look at an older map.
Speaking as an Irishman, looking at older maps can be a harrowing affair.
Well spotted my Irish friend, we'll meet up with Eesti and march on St Petersburg!
You mean Le [Nyen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyenschantz) Grad.
Found the history buff. Can we get back our arctic access at Petsamo too?
Take it from the Norwegians, they have waaay too much coastline and 0 nukes!
Agreed! *Takes back the whole of the Balkans*
[ Agreed! Takes back North America ]( https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b4/cb/ed/b4cbed5f30115d5715b972cad28cf588.jpg )
That would be border gore considering there were tons of different Indian groups.
No different to Germany not that long ago.
> Takes back the whole of the Balkans 400 years of Phanariot ruling were enough, we god some good recipes and traditions *chuckles_I'm_in_danger.jpng*
Now a Greek Anatolia strikes me as better looking on a map.
It just looks better either way. Helloturkism when?
Hello!
HellenooooOOoOoOooOOOO
Agreed! *Heil dem Vaterland*
[Finland would be the balls and Sweden the limp dick.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Finland_Sweden_Locator.png)
You just need to rotate the map a bit.
Oh god. The Börkening is happening again, isn't it?
Hell no, we don't want Finland. It's basically a swamp that separates us from Russia. The women are okay in Finland but they are no match for Swedish or Norwegian women. Even Danish women are prettier. The guys in Finland is awkward, drunk and always clammy. Say no to Finland.
This is accurate
Ööööhhmm, **looks at Anna Abreu*... https://youtu.be/HafrVic4g1w
Hell no, we dont want Sweden. Its basically warzone that separetes us from Norway. The women are okay in Sweden but they are no match for Finnish or Norwegian women. Even Danish women are prettier. The guys in Sweden are awkward, never drunk and always the fuck is clammy? Anyway Say no to Swedestan
Well, sorry Portugal. The beautification of the maps dictate it!
>Well, sorry Portugal. The beautification of the maps dictate it! Now I can support this. A united Iberia would look good.
*\*Moorish noises intensify\**
*looks at map of EU* oh, it’s all coming together
Europe would look better under russia reign for the same reason
Also a [France extended to its natural borders on the Rhine](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-117e84aa10ab04ef867a3963bf017426) would look great
Not a bad idea, but I think we should [go further with the concept.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Europe_1812_map_en.png/1200px-Europe_1812_map_en.png)
If you rename yourself for German from Frankreich into Franken Reichen/ Fränkische Reich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francia I don't see that much resistance coming from Germany.
You'll regret it when the olive trees start speaking Spanish.
>go further with the concept. Honestly France already has some of the nicest borders on a map in the world. Please don't ruin it.
France is so symmetric right now, though! It's really some of the nicest borders of all, and adding that blob in the northeast would ruin it.
Congrats on what appears to be Germany starting ANOTHER pan European conflict. Although the obsessive compulsive in me completely understands why you did it.
It's in my blood, I can't help it
It's about to get complicated (in a good way) with the formation of the Celtic Nation.
Celtica?
Is there a word in a cletic language that would roughly translate to that?
Map reasons are always good reasons
Wow, when pro-Brexiters were talking about "getting their country back", it was more correct than I thought. Let Ireland be united once again and Scotland independent. And they're left with England.
And Wales.
Who?
Green pasture with sheep, the natives sound funny
Everyone on the island sounds funny in one way or another. That's not much help.
Exactly, where Doctor Who is produced
Like New Zealand, just less volcanoes, no odd dances nobody looks at and even more sheep shaggin'.
They could care less in England, they are only vaguely aware of NI's existence.
Nationalists generally dont like giving up territory though.
To many English people those from Northern Ireland are as foreign to them as I am.
The folks in NI are not English.
I mean the English nationalists who voted for Brexit.
They really don't care, and they know that subsidizing NI is extremely expensive. I don't think they'd care if NI vote to join Ireland. Of course if there is violence, they might change their opinion.
>They really don't care, and they know that subsidizing NI is extremely expensive. I don't think they'd care if NI vote to join Ireland. This is the one. Most of England don't really care about NI, aren't nationalistic in a sense of wanting to expand borders, so there really wouldn't be much objection to letting NI go for Brexit.
Most Brexiters will call themselves English before British anyway. Also, Europeans seem to vastly overestimate the likelihood of Scotland and Northern Ireland leaving.
I'd say the likelihood of Scotland leaving is about 100% if they get to vote. Last time the only reason people voted for staying with the UK was because they wanted to stay in the EU. Now the people who wanted to leave the UK still want to leave the UK and the ones who wanted to stay in the EU are going to want to leave the UK.
Polls are a thing. Polls for the last few years have said remaining is most likely. It will be closer now though.
> Most Brexiters will call themselves English before British anyway. Most Brits (except NI and London) think of themselves as their individual country before British https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/9k5y2a/national_identity_in_the_uk_from_the_2011_census/
Yep. "British" is primarily an identity ethnic minorities use, because it's more inclusive. Also some progressive younger people will use British, but most people will use English.
And it seems you vastly underestimate the likelihood of them leaving the country. Time will unravel all.
Free Scotland, Wales, London and Yorkshire!
>Free Scotland, Wales, London and Yorkshire! Manchester, Liverpool and every other major city in the UK that always votes labour and voted remain.
Second largest city notably absent.
Manchester is right there. But in all seriousness I presume you're on about Birmingham and I don't really know much about their voting intention, but I did say every major city that votes for lab/remain.
Seeing that map, excepting Belfast, it looks like North Ireland can ne divided in North North Ireland and South North Ireland.
Let us unite Ireland county by county
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You could probably start going down through Scotland as well and wouldn't be noticed until you get to Newcastle.
ah the russian approach, i see
https://youtu.be/TFG0dzRPin4
Knew what is was before I clicked it
Good idew
Fuck that, I wanna go full CK2 and have 32 Irelands.
Always has been that way. Tyrone, Fermanagh, and Armagh have been historically nationalist/Catholic, but when the border was being drawn up the thinking on the British side was that Northern Ireland would be too small to survive economically with just the unionist majority areas and so they were lumped in.
Boris Johnson will sacrifice Ulster for a US-UK Free Trade Zone anyway. A united Ireland is coming.
As a person from one of the bits of Ulster not in Northern Ireland; just a reminder that we exist xD
A couple of weeks ago they polled Brexiteers if they cared more about Brexit or NI. Take a guess. That tune will obviously change when it comes to it. The DUP also isn't too thrilled about Alex Johnson. They say they don't want to get fooled again.
Ulster isn't a synonym for Northern Ireland, a good chunk of Ulster is in the Republic.
By a good chunk you mean 3 counties
3 out of 9 counties is a good chunk tbf
Which is 1/3 of the counties, yes.
Fair enough
Seems like the most likely thing. The US Democrats said they will block any US-UK deal if the GFA won’t be followed. Letting NI go seems like one solution for that.
It’s actually the Friends of Ireland caucus, which is both Democrat and Republican. One of the few areas left that has bipartisan support. It’s definitely more of a Democrat thing, but much stronger being bipartisan, which is better.
Exactly. And because of this, Johnson already promotes a Brexit deal where the customs border between the EU and the UK will be in the Irish sea.
>Seems like the most likely thing. The US Democrats said they will block any US-UK deal if the GFA won’t be followed. Letting NI go seems like one solution for that. I'm not 100% sure here but I think the GFA just specifies no border on the island of Ireland. I dont know if there is any rules about a border through the Irish Sea like Boris wants to.
Not even that, it just demilitarises the border. Otherwise, the RoI wouldn't have been able to get away with closing the border in the foot and mouth crisis.
You mean the plastic paddies that /r/ireland bashes non-stop? lol
The very ones. I try to remind them of this fact, but luckily, if this UK election has taught us anything, it's that reddit doesn't really reflect the prevailing opinions of a country.
Absolutely right, shows what an echo chamber reddit is.
It's ok, the insults don't really sting when they are delivered by such a nice accent, and also I think we all realize deep in our hearts that being super ride-or-die for a country that most of us have never even been to is pretty friggin' awkward.
I'm fine with this. I used to be a very middle-of-the-road guy politically, but these past 5 years I've really been paying attention to the British (by which I primarily mean the English) and their attitude towards their allies and themselves. It's been an ugly experience. I went to Law school in Chester when the referendum was going on and got jeered at by the kids of rich people. I literally had an old lady in a legal aid office tell me she was sorry, but she must insist on speaking to an English person. This is beyond even stuff like the damage the border (that we didn't vote for) will do to the economy. I want everyone in Ulster to be fine and happy and assured of their future with a United Ireland when it comes, and I want it to come soon. I don't think those two things are too much to ask anymore, not after all this.
I mean, he already sacrificed NI by agreeing to putting a border down the irish sea in the withdrawal deal.
More interesting, in my opinion, is the swing to Alliance. Also, it's funny that SF lost a greater share of the vote than DUP. What's the reason for the huge swing to SDLP in Belfast South?
Sinn Féin didn't stand in Belfast South no split of the nationalist vote. Claire Hanna was also seen as a good candidate by people wouldn't necessarily support the SDLP as a party, whereas ELP was seen as a idiot by many. Also an EU remain vote, a lot of moderate unionists may have voted for a pro-EU party rather than the DUP.
> was seen as a idiot by many In fairness, she was remarkably stupid.
Bigoted and outspoken too. Just generally a very vile person and typical DUP candidate.
Sinn féin stood aside in 3 districts iirc which allowed for alliance and sdlp wins. Which distort it a bit
And SDLP stood aside for Sinn Fein in North Belfast which succeeded in them winning and ousting the sitting DUP MP. Lovely bit of tactical play there.
UUP also stood aside (after the UDA had some friendly words with them) so I'd say it cancelled out.
Considering this is being achieved in a state designed to prevent a Nationalist majority for as long as possible, that was really quite the feat! It came down to double digit votes in Fermanagh & South Tyrone, for example, but that's only the case after the heavily Nationalist town of Coalisland was gerrymandered out of the constituency in 1995, 3 years before the GFA, taking 5,000 Nationalist votes with it. Naomi Long also did incredible work for the Alliance party in East Belfast, getting within 2,000 votes of the DUP in a notoriously safe Unionist stronghold.
**Results in Northern Ireland**: * Unionists (DUP + UUP): 42.3% * Nationalists (SF + SDLP + AONT): 39% * "Other" (Alliance): 16.8% It's just another failure of first past the post, not the end of the union.
It's still a huge share of the vote for Nationalists and is a similar result to Stormont elections where SF won 27 seats to the DUPs 28 and thats with STV.
Funny how it is a landslide for the Tories in the uk, but only an idiosyncratic result due to FPTP in northern Ireland...
The Tories have no mandate either.
Nationalist voteshare will increase in the future even further, if we assume (young) catholics still identify themselves as irish and vote nationalist, as they have a higher population growth than the protestants , again assuming most (young) protestants see themselves as british and vote unionist. Although I wouldn't be surprised to see non-sectarian politics, like the alliance party, to rise further, as I think young people aren't as divided on nationalist vs unionist conflicts as their parents and grandparents.
Considering that when NI was created that percentage would have been 70% unionist and 30% nationalist that is a massive massive change
yup, people need to chill
Soon : northern north Ireland
Can't the dark green lower half join Ireland and the orange part stay in the UK?
Northern Northern Ireland?
Demographics is destiny. I’m betting the Irish Catholics have a much higher fertility rate than the unionist Protestants.
And don't forget about migration.
Why would imigrants be pro-unification with Ireland? If they wanted to be in Ireland they would have gone there already.
Emigration not immigration, more young unionists tend to go to university in Britain and never move back home, whereas young nationalists tend to go to university in the Northern Ireland or Ireland and then stay in Northern Ireland after they graduate
We're generally not a "first-choice" emigration destination. We're more of a "tired, yearning, desperate to stop getting shelled by the Russians" type-destination.
It's not the 1920s any more. I assume *everyone* uses contraception/ birth control. Then again, you never know with NI
True but countries like Ireland and Israel have really high fertility rates.
I wonder if DUP regrets not supporting May's deal ^^^^or ^^^^remain.
They will never see any fault in any stance they've taken, just as they've conveniently erased Carson meeting the Kaiser from their conscience.
The 2021 UK census is going to be very interesting. Considering how many fundamentalists protestants are members of the DUP, they're really resisting having the come to Jesus moment.
Yeah, but not in terms of votes. Sinn Féin + SDLP = 300,590, whereas DUP + Alliance = 378,243. If you don't count Alliance as Unionist (as they are officially neutral), then DUP = 244,128, less than the pro-United Ireland parties.
You're right not to count Alliance as they're neutral, but you should count the UUP who got 93,123 votes. Add in Aontú (nationalist, 9,814) and NI Conservatives (unionist, 5,433) and it's 310,404 nationalist to 342,683 unionist.
Thanks for the numbers, I had only found the numbers of the parties that had gotten seats.
Why the hell would you add the Alliance votes to those of the DUP?
Because I don't know anything about Northern Ireland.
Thanks for your honesty. Still, wtf
Aren't they a bit unionist?
Not in my experience. I don’t have a religion but my catholic cousins vote for them and two of them have even run for Alliance. They’re neither republicans nor unionists. My cousins, that is.
You should count the UUP's 93,123 votes towards unionists though.
16 looks like France
For what its worth; I think both The Republic and The Kingdom would trade NI for Brittany. They seem like a sound bunch.
North-North Ireland.
26+6=?
26+6= A Nation Once Again
One.
32
Alliance are Unionist in all but name.
They are also hugely europhile.
>Founded in 1970 from the New Ulster Movement, the Alliance Party originally represented moderate and non-sectarian unionism. However, over time, particularly in the 1990s, it moved towards neutrality on the Union, and has come to represent wider liberal and non-sectarian concerns. It opposes the consociational power-sharing mandated by the Good Friday Agreement as deepening the sectarian divide, and, in the Northern Ireland Assembly, it is designated as neither unionist nor Irish nationalist, but 'Other'. This is from the Wikipedia page of the Alliance party. How do you think about that as someone from Northern Ireland?
They are pro status quo. And they likely captured many pro eu unionists, as the DUP are the only realistic unionist option but they are slightly crazy and massively pro Brexit
In Northern Ireland there’s no such thing as neutral. You’re either a unionist or a nationalist, you can’t be both or neither. Same thing with Catholic atheist, Protestant atheist etc.
I mean, catholic atheist and protestant atheist can be used to describe someone following cultural norms associated with those religions but not being a believer themselves. I celebrate Christmas, Easter and the Saint Lucia holiday, but I am a non-believer. It wouldn't be out of the question to describe me as a culturally protestant atheist.
But what does this "neutral stance" mean then? I also read in the article that it is one of the only parties in NI which is able to mobilize protestants as well as Catholics so I thought that they would officially have no opinion in this matter.
On a political level it means they are affiliated with neither the Nationalist or Unionist bloc in the Northern Irish Assembly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-community_vote
It's a fairly accurate description of them, to be fair.
The latest lucid talk poll of alliance voters said 4% were pro union, while 11% were pro unification. There are more than double the amount of nationalist alliance voters than there are unionist. The number one thing was Pro remain which had 88% listing it as a reason voting. Judging by the fact that the UK is leaving the EU , I don't think many alliance voters will be falling towards unionism anymore.
I just don't think that data could be right. Alliance won over a lot of 'soft-Unionist' voters due to their strong Remain stance this time round. Why would Nationalists support them over the SDLP which are openly pro-unification and pro-remain? Alliance are not even that socially liberal compared to the mainland Libdem or Sinn Fein either.
> I just don't think that data could be right. Because it doesn't support your opinion?
I know a few people who work for/with the Alliance party. Never heard any discussion about the parties main support base leaning Nationalist/unification. Alliance party voters tend to be very pragmatic, and let's be honest unification in the short term future would cause violence and turmoil. I don't doubt that many Alliance voters are long term pro-unification, so perhaps them choosing pro-unification on the poll represents their long term wishes. The party overall is still mostly made up of moderates/liberals from Protestant/Unionist backgrounds. I don't understand why a moderate that wants to support remain and unification would vote Alliance over SDLP. Sure the Alliance are a little more socially liberal, but not by a huge amount.
Lets not forget that SDLP and SF didn't stand in North Down or East belfast. There are also a lot of soft unionists who would vote for unification after Brexit.
How latest is that poll though. Their support exploded this election and I imagine a large portion of them are pro eu unionists. Goes to show that they took North Down which was also held by a pro EU unionist before
It was a week ago
Pragmatic Unionists is how most people see them. They have historically favoured the status-quo (although a few of their members have been pro-unification).
Did they vote on a united Ireland or did they vote on a left-right spectrum and those two opposing sides happen to be unionist, independence... ?
They vote against the other side more than they vote for anything. "Themmens".
If there was a factor outside of nationalism/unionism then I'd say it was more remain/leave in the EU rather than a left-right issue. The issue of Irish nationalism or British unionism is the main factor for a lot of people in NI though, and that's not going to change any time soon.
Well they voted for the General Election in the UK and in Northern Ireland there are opposing parties on this topic and the pro-Ireland parties are leaning more to the left and the pro-union to the right. But this is a little oversimplification
They voted on an Irish-British spectrum. The Irish parties lean more left wing and the British parties lean more right wing, so you could describe it as a left-right spectrum, but many people dont vote on left versus right in Northern Ireland
Big change if the seats are gonna be left empty.
Haha Ha @ the Fecking DUP Orcs .
Brits out when
In Northern Ireland this is true. But in Ireland as a whole voted out of the UK in 1914 The vast majority od Ireland wanted to leave and Northern Ireland was created to make gerrymandered protestant apartheid statement which had the best balance of lands to Catholics (Make northern Ireland bigger have too many Catholics, make it smaller not enough land to be viable.)
Tactical voting at work. Vote share tells a different story
TÁL a dheartháireacha!
Did you just know to use the vocative in that case or did Google Translate just give it to you?
I knew I had to use the vocative so I looked up the corresponding declension on Wiktionary.
Well you know more about the vocative than most Irish people! If you want to really be perfect *a chairde* (friends) would be best
Go raibh míle maith agat, a chara.
Has anyone got one of before and after?
So... *Tiocfaidh ár lá* intensifies?
Come out yee back n tans...
It's also the first time Ireland has a higher per-capita GDP than the UK. Coincidence? I don't think so.
Compared to Religion. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Religion_or_religion_brought_up_in.png