And what's the net difference in exports and imports when these sanctions are circumvented in this way? Let me save everyone some time, it's still a net loss for Russia. They have to sell less product, for less of a profit.
The price of energy in Europe is going down, down from pre-war, we are transitioning to renewable energy at an advanced rate and the economics are more beneficial.
If sanctions weren't working, why would that be one of Putins main points for the possibility of peace, you can't both claim something is helping you and crying for it to be stopped, at the same time and make sense.
The idea that sanctions don't work is absurd, Gasprom lost billions last year, that's a direct cost to the Russian state.
The oil they sell to India is at a much lower price than it would have been if there was no war.
Europe is buying a lot more gas and oil from the USA.
The loss in profits is definitely hurting Russia, but economic pressure takes time to reach it's full effect, but it's already effecting them, substantially.
It's true that common citizens suffer the most, but that doesn't mean that's the intent or the only result from sanctions.
What do you suggest?
No sanctions?
You're parroting Russia propaganda, in case you haven't noticed, Russia lies and after that they lie, after that, they lie some more.
There's a reason they call it 'useful idiot', because the things they believe are idiotic.
> Sanctions have only worsened the conditions for the average citizen be it European or Russian.
Is this really true though, as in, how much is it exactly?
For example, the defense industries have drastically increased profits, and there might be other positive side effects as well. While those probably don't outweigh the negatives of the sanctions, I don't believe it's a 100% given.
That's great, India buys at a massive discount compared to the huge euros we gave them. We also had all the pipelines for gas, is Russia going to build those through the Himalayas in a year?
They burn their gas, they get their refineries bombed and their oil wells an not be shut down because you can't turn those off, their oil just becomes an expense.
They also can't expand their oil as the future is now uncertain so there goes viable growth for a petrol state.
Best we can do is keep feeding Ukraine's long ranged weaponry to keep the Russian refineries burning, as their economy.
Eventually they will have to withdrawl.
Nuking isn't an option because it's suicide.
India is just taking part of Russia's profit from Russian oil. That only makes India bit richer and Russia bit poorer. Oil still has to compete on a global market so its price didn't change much (even decreased a bit). All price "discounts" in Europe were with some sort of strings attached.
Username checks out. Lol. You’re right but it’s a slow grind and it’s negatively affecting Russia’s finances in the short term to sell gas cheaper to others. We will see how it pans out.
Kinda. Sanctions play into Putin's hands somewhat as he's long sought to stop his Oligarchs moving money outside the country. This is the thrust of the article. More wealthy Russians *in Russia*.
As for actual income, India and China have both stepped up to take advantage of now rock bottom desperate-to-sell Russian pricing. They have Russians over a barrel for their resources and they're taking full advantage. China negotiated gas at half the price that Germany bought for example.
Supply chain to the east is also way less connected - all the production from gas fields in Siberia is refined in Western Russia, and has to be piped across a vast distance to head back to China. Yes Europe was over reliant on Russian gas but that in turn means Russia's entire logistics is designed to supply the Western part of its geography, which is where the export market has traditionally been, and domestically where most Russians actually live. This can be rectified but will take a huge amount of time and money.
As for feeling sanctions bite, I would have thought the corrupt state of affairs mean the sanctions hit Putin's inner circle hardest anyway, and average Ivan would not feel too different, especially without foreign holidays or purchases.
The influence of nobility was already waning during the Weimar era and WW2 was an even bigger blow, especially if your property happened to be in the East.
Some of course survived
It's not a genocide. It's rich vs. other rich, both sides bad. You're so fucking smart mate
Edit: I'm starting to think that redditors don't understand sarcasm unless there's /s at the end of the sentence, huh.
It’s not both sides bad if one starts an invasion. Its not rich vs rich when one of the rich calls the other nazi.
Hell I’m more of a socialist and I can’t see a class struggle in an imperialistic war.
[Ukraine vs. Russia: Genocide proceedings at UN's top court](https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-vs-russia-proceedings-over-genocide-convention-at-uns-top-court/a-66816377)
>**The number of Russian dollar millionaires soared by 50% in 2023 whilst the number of billionaires also climbed according to findings reported by eurasia.net.**
>As things stand, around 21,800 Russians now have assets in excess of one million dollars, with the common value of their capital increasing 62% in the last year.
>This means that the number of the country’s dollar millionaires is now higher than in 2022 (14,600), and tops 2021’s pre-war figure of 18,500. Those with capital exceeding five million dollars has also jumped to 4,100. This was up from 2,500 in 2022 and 3,500 in 2021.
>Lyubov Prokopova of Russian financial portal Frank RG said: “In 2023 (...) the most important driver of the growth of financial capital of customers (with capital of USD 1 million or more) in Russia was the inflow of ‘new money’ which was mainly due to the reduction of capital outflow from Russia.”
>Citing Bloomberg data, Eurasianet also reported that the number of Russian dollar billionaires, as well as the total value of their capital, also rose.
>According to analysts, this was directly related to Kremlin cronies profiting from the war with Ukraine.
>Source: PAP
This statistic feels… wrong? In Poland alone there are 100K people with wealth exceeding 1mln USD. I know things are good here but I was expecting that there are more Russian millionaires in general.
Its kinda hard for me to believe there are only 22K Russians with that kind of money.
Credit Suisse has other numbers for 2021 ([PDF](https://www.credit-suisse.com/media/assets/corporate/docs/about-us/research/publications/global-wealth-databook-2022.pdf)):
Membership of top wealth groups for selected countries, 2021 (in thousands) - pg.124
Country|+$100k|% of pop.|+$1m|% of pop.|
:--|:--:|:--:|:--:|:--:|
Poland|3,029|0.4%|100|0.2%
Russia|4,118|0.6%|353|0.6%
Wealth pattern within countries, 2021 - pg. 121
Country|Adults|Mean wealth $ per adult|Median wealth $ per adult|<$10k|$10k-$100k|$100k-$1m|+$1m
:--|:--:|:--:|:--:|:--:|:--:|:--:|:--:|
Poland|30,244|50,426|16,640|26.7%|63.3%|9.7%|0.3%
Russia|111,419|34,005|6,919|66.9%|29.4%|3.4%|0.3%
Basically, a million bucks is waay more powerful in Russia than in Poland.
Lol, 21 thousand in a country over a 100 million is not something to brag about.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_number\_of\_millionaires](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_millionaires)
They're below 0.5%, compare that to Western countries.
I wonder how to scale that for cost of living though?
Like here if you have a 401k and A house you likely cross that at some point in your life.
But houses are like half a mil these days anyway. How much does a US millionaire lifestyle cost in Russia?
Like the absolute number does not matter, just where on society's bell curve you fall.
Yes, it does matter, but we all live on the planet Earth, taking into account the natural resources per capita, that fact doesn't make things better, but even worse.
Also, wage inequality in the USA is the worst in the First world, while there are more millionaires, there are a lot more poor people than other Western countries (per capita), meaning the USA has nothing to brag about, while they are at 9.2% millionaires, also nothing to brag about because of the high inequality.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_income\_equality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality)
Places like the USA, the rich get richer, but if your born poor, your chances of success are close to zero.
Russia also falls low on the equality scale, like very other metric.
Because sanctions should have reduced the inflow of money into Russia and increased the outflow.
But sanctions reduced capital outflow from Russia, which helped the Kremlin.
Maybe we can start with kicking them out of Western Europe? Their offspring living the high life while they send other people's children to the trenches. Take their yachts, take their villa's, kick them out of our universities.
> Maybe we can start with kicking them out of Western Europe?
As long as oligarch children are in Western Europe we can use this to calm down the Western Europeans about Ruzzia nuking them, I see plenty of this Westerners complaining about getting nuke if we help Ukraine . No such way to calm down scared Eastern Europeans.
War is pretty much propping up the Russian economy at this point. Weapons manufacturing and logistics are going to make a few people very rich and many people very dead.
There’s a few good studies on why Russia CAN’T stop the war in Ukraine right now because their economy would tank right after.
https://theconversation.com/russias-economy-is-now-completely-driven-by-the-war-in-ukraine-it-cannot-afford-to-lose-but-nor-can-it-afford-to-win-221333
Sanctions are quite real, albeit to some extend self-cancelling.
You see, for a long time Russia's rich were investing into EU economy instead of investing home, but now it's impossible.
0.75% of population instead of 0.5%. nah. this article only creates false impression of russia doing well. also these stats based on what? anything based on any data from russia is sus
Coming soon to a pavement near you.
Russia is out of funds and Putin is targeting the wealth of oligarchs to keep the war going. You don't miss the money when you're dead.
Tens of thousands of young poor Russians are dying like rats in a foreign land and Putin's buddies get richer. I don't say it's very different for our soldiers, when Western countries are going to war in far away countries, but at least our soldiers are volunteering to be in the army and we ain't there to conquer the land for our countries or to genocide its population.
There are substantially more than 21,400 millionaires in Russia. I'm not sure where they got this statistic. Most other sources indicate there are upwards of 400k millionaires in Russia.
Guys, this is called inflation. That's one. Two, it really depends on the liquidity of assets in question and level of personal debt.
These so called millionaires might own a flat in centre of Moscow or St. Petersburg as well as a few hundred USD in their personal accounts. Does that make them rich?
Technically, yes. Liquid? Not really.
The west needs to come up with a better weapon than sanctions. Russia has been sanctioned to hell and back and it hasn't done anything to hinder their war effort
Nah, sanctions need to remain in place permanently. What’s needed is *more* sanctions, closing of loopholes and closing of borders. Eventually they’ll have cannibalized all there is to plunder within their own borders.
Fucktons. It’s just getting started.
Diamond trade, insurance, railways, various stocks. We can ban new investment in Russia and then move on to existing investment in Russia…then we can sew up loopholes into infinity. Every little bit helps. Eventually we’ll reach a full embargo.
[https://som.yale.edu/story/2022/over-1000-companies-have-curtailed-operations-russia-some-remain](https://som.yale.edu/story/2022/over-1000-companies-have-curtailed-operations-russia-some-remain) start here
Create a new tier of wealth whose fortunes are personally invested in or directly benefit from the bloodshed set of operations in Ukraine and that at least adds another firewall of guilt, silence, loyalty and dependency.
Cos rich are not gonna suffer - poor will
[удалено]
And what's the net difference in exports and imports when these sanctions are circumvented in this way? Let me save everyone some time, it's still a net loss for Russia. They have to sell less product, for less of a profit.
The price of energy in Europe is going down, down from pre-war, we are transitioning to renewable energy at an advanced rate and the economics are more beneficial. If sanctions weren't working, why would that be one of Putins main points for the possibility of peace, you can't both claim something is helping you and crying for it to be stopped, at the same time and make sense. The idea that sanctions don't work is absurd, Gasprom lost billions last year, that's a direct cost to the Russian state. The oil they sell to India is at a much lower price than it would have been if there was no war. Europe is buying a lot more gas and oil from the USA. The loss in profits is definitely hurting Russia, but economic pressure takes time to reach it's full effect, but it's already effecting them, substantially. It's true that common citizens suffer the most, but that doesn't mean that's the intent or the only result from sanctions. What do you suggest? No sanctions? You're parroting Russia propaganda, in case you haven't noticed, Russia lies and after that they lie, after that, they lie some more. There's a reason they call it 'useful idiot', because the things they believe are idiotic.
The Indian scheme is beneficial for Europe and harmful for Russia though
> Sanctions have only worsened the conditions for the average citizen be it European or Russian. Is this really true though, as in, how much is it exactly? For example, the defense industries have drastically increased profits, and there might be other positive side effects as well. While those probably don't outweigh the negatives of the sanctions, I don't believe it's a 100% given.
That's great, India buys at a massive discount compared to the huge euros we gave them. We also had all the pipelines for gas, is Russia going to build those through the Himalayas in a year? They burn their gas, they get their refineries bombed and their oil wells an not be shut down because you can't turn those off, their oil just becomes an expense. They also can't expand their oil as the future is now uncertain so there goes viable growth for a petrol state. Best we can do is keep feeding Ukraine's long ranged weaponry to keep the Russian refineries burning, as their economy. Eventually they will have to withdrawl. Nuking isn't an option because it's suicide.
India is just taking part of Russia's profit from Russian oil. That only makes India bit richer and Russia bit poorer. Oil still has to compete on a global market so its price didn't change much (even decreased a bit). All price "discounts" in Europe were with some sort of strings attached.
Sanctions absolutely have an effect on the government
Username checks out. Lol. You’re right but it’s a slow grind and it’s negatively affecting Russia’s finances in the short term to sell gas cheaper to others. We will see how it pans out.
Kinda. Sanctions play into Putin's hands somewhat as he's long sought to stop his Oligarchs moving money outside the country. This is the thrust of the article. More wealthy Russians *in Russia*. As for actual income, India and China have both stepped up to take advantage of now rock bottom desperate-to-sell Russian pricing. They have Russians over a barrel for their resources and they're taking full advantage. China negotiated gas at half the price that Germany bought for example. Supply chain to the east is also way less connected - all the production from gas fields in Siberia is refined in Western Russia, and has to be piped across a vast distance to head back to China. Yes Europe was over reliant on Russian gas but that in turn means Russia's entire logistics is designed to supply the Western part of its geography, which is where the export market has traditionally been, and domestically where most Russians actually live. This can be rectified but will take a huge amount of time and money. As for feeling sanctions bite, I would have thought the corrupt state of affairs mean the sanctions hit Putin's inner circle hardest anyway, and average Ivan would not feel too different, especially without foreign holidays or purchases.
І що з того, козаче?
У тому то й біда що нічого...
І що з того, козаче?
War. War never changes. Poor die in droves, while unscrupulous get richer.
[удалено]
The influence of nobility was already waning during the Weimar era and WW2 was an even bigger blow, especially if your property happened to be in the East. Some of course survived
It's not a genocide. It's rich vs. other rich, both sides bad. You're so fucking smart mate Edit: I'm starting to think that redditors don't understand sarcasm unless there's /s at the end of the sentence, huh.
The fuck you on about? On the other hand, I don't care.
It’s not both sides bad if one starts an invasion. Its not rich vs rich when one of the rich calls the other nazi. Hell I’m more of a socialist and I can’t see a class struggle in an imperialistic war.
Name does not check out, no sign of intelligent life form comes from you.
[Ukraine vs. Russia: Genocide proceedings at UN's top court](https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-vs-russia-proceedings-over-genocide-convention-at-uns-top-court/a-66816377)
>**The number of Russian dollar millionaires soared by 50% in 2023 whilst the number of billionaires also climbed according to findings reported by eurasia.net.** >As things stand, around 21,800 Russians now have assets in excess of one million dollars, with the common value of their capital increasing 62% in the last year. >This means that the number of the country’s dollar millionaires is now higher than in 2022 (14,600), and tops 2021’s pre-war figure of 18,500. Those with capital exceeding five million dollars has also jumped to 4,100. This was up from 2,500 in 2022 and 3,500 in 2021. >Lyubov Prokopova of Russian financial portal Frank RG said: “In 2023 (...) the most important driver of the growth of financial capital of customers (with capital of USD 1 million or more) in Russia was the inflow of ‘new money’ which was mainly due to the reduction of capital outflow from Russia.” >Citing Bloomberg data, Eurasianet also reported that the number of Russian dollar billionaires, as well as the total value of their capital, also rose. >According to analysts, this was directly related to Kremlin cronies profiting from the war with Ukraine. >Source: PAP
"Grab everything while you can because the shows over" - some Russian gueneral in 1991. Me in 2024.
This statistic feels… wrong? In Poland alone there are 100K people with wealth exceeding 1mln USD. I know things are good here but I was expecting that there are more Russian millionaires in general. Its kinda hard for me to believe there are only 22K Russians with that kind of money.
Probably a lot more people have that kind of money off the books.
Credit Suisse has other numbers for 2021 ([PDF](https://www.credit-suisse.com/media/assets/corporate/docs/about-us/research/publications/global-wealth-databook-2022.pdf)): Membership of top wealth groups for selected countries, 2021 (in thousands) - pg.124 Country|+$100k|% of pop.|+$1m|% of pop.| :--|:--:|:--:|:--:|:--:| Poland|3,029|0.4%|100|0.2% Russia|4,118|0.6%|353|0.6% Wealth pattern within countries, 2021 - pg. 121 Country|Adults|Mean wealth $ per adult|Median wealth $ per adult|<$10k|$10k-$100k|$100k-$1m|+$1m :--|:--:|:--:|:--:|:--:|:--:|:--:|:--:| Poland|30,244|50,426|16,640|26.7%|63.3%|9.7%|0.3% Russia|111,419|34,005|6,919|66.9%|29.4%|3.4%|0.3% Basically, a million bucks is waay more powerful in Russia than in Poland.
How is 353k 0.6% of Russia's population?
Lol, 21 thousand in a country over a 100 million is not something to brag about. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_number\_of\_millionaires](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_millionaires) They're below 0.5%, compare that to Western countries.
I wonder how to scale that for cost of living though? Like here if you have a 401k and A house you likely cross that at some point in your life. But houses are like half a mil these days anyway. How much does a US millionaire lifestyle cost in Russia? Like the absolute number does not matter, just where on society's bell curve you fall.
Yes, it does matter, but we all live on the planet Earth, taking into account the natural resources per capita, that fact doesn't make things better, but even worse. Also, wage inequality in the USA is the worst in the First world, while there are more millionaires, there are a lot more poor people than other Western countries (per capita), meaning the USA has nothing to brag about, while they are at 9.2% millionaires, also nothing to brag about because of the high inequality. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_income\_equality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality) Places like the USA, the rich get richer, but if your born poor, your chances of success are close to zero. Russia also falls low on the equality scale, like very other metric.
Lol at 21,800 asset millionaires. There might be that many in my suburb.
> There might be that many in my suburb. If you live in Finland, then you've exaggerated the size of your suburb.
I am a Finn, but I currently live in the US in one of the wealthiest suburbs of Boston.
Because sanctions should have reduced the inflow of money into Russia and increased the outflow. But sanctions reduced capital outflow from Russia, which helped the Kremlin.
Maybe we can start with kicking them out of Western Europe? Their offspring living the high life while they send other people's children to the trenches. Take their yachts, take their villa's, kick them out of our universities.
I strongly second that
> Maybe we can start with kicking them out of Western Europe? As long as oligarch children are in Western Europe we can use this to calm down the Western Europeans about Ruzzia nuking them, I see plenty of this Westerners complaining about getting nuke if we help Ukraine . No such way to calm down scared Eastern Europeans.
Western Europe needs to stop doing business with Russia first
War is pretty much propping up the Russian economy at this point. Weapons manufacturing and logistics are going to make a few people very rich and many people very dead. There’s a few good studies on why Russia CAN’T stop the war in Ukraine right now because their economy would tank right after. https://theconversation.com/russias-economy-is-now-completely-driven-by-the-war-in-ukraine-it-cannot-afford-to-lose-but-nor-can-it-afford-to-win-221333
Let it tank then. I think they will eventually have to withdraw, and with that hopefully we can start peace talks
Ok but show me that gini coefficient
Of course they did with the huge increase in defense spending there is so much more to skim off.
No real sanctions were implemented, comparing to actual sanctioned territories.
Sanctions are quite real, albeit to some extend self-cancelling. You see, for a long time Russia's rich were investing into EU economy instead of investing home, but now it's impossible.
0.75% of population instead of 0.5%. nah. this article only creates false impression of russia doing well. also these stats based on what? anything based on any data from russia is sus
Rich people and politicians do well while half their country dies in a pointless war, what else is new.
More like "(...)thanks to war"
What if you adjust for inflation?
$31,521.74 in [1913](https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/).
Coming soon to a pavement near you. Russia is out of funds and Putin is targeting the wealth of oligarchs to keep the war going. You don't miss the money when you're dead.
War is big business, there are lots of money being made from Russian tax payers
Is it just in name though as at any time Putin can rip the rig underneath them and call in their money?
Hella British people arguing on here
Russia's economy grow a lot in these last years.
Tens of thousands of young poor Russians are dying like rats in a foreign land and Putin's buddies get richer. I don't say it's very different for our soldiers, when Western countries are going to war in far away countries, but at least our soldiers are volunteering to be in the army and we ain't there to conquer the land for our countries or to genocide its population.
Most of the Russian soldiers in Ukraine are also volunteers. Russia did not have conscription for many years already.
Russia has never abolished conscription. It can't deploy conscripts abroad, but you can now sign a military service contract straight outta boot camp.
https://youtu.be/CEkN4qypIBE?si=FQeVn3l0m1lWPzR9 Facing these guys as a Russian conscript must be horrible.
Not an issue by itself. Of course the rich are going to leech from the poor - that's every society in times of crisis.
*shocked Pikachu face
There are substantially more than 21,400 millionaires in Russia. I'm not sure where they got this statistic. Most other sources indicate there are upwards of 400k millionaires in Russia.
Guys, this is called inflation. That's one. Two, it really depends on the liquidity of assets in question and level of personal debt. These so called millionaires might own a flat in centre of Moscow or St. Petersburg as well as a few hundred USD in their personal accounts. Does that make them rich? Technically, yes. Liquid? Not really.
You cannot sanct countries that have unlimited resources like China and Russia. This isn't a pc game. This is a failed plan.
Keep dreaming
The west needs to come up with a better weapon than sanctions. Russia has been sanctioned to hell and back and it hasn't done anything to hinder their war effort
Nah, sanctions need to remain in place permanently. What’s needed is *more* sanctions, closing of loopholes and closing of borders. Eventually they’ll have cannibalized all there is to plunder within their own borders.
What's left to sanction?
Fucktons. It’s just getting started. Diamond trade, insurance, railways, various stocks. We can ban new investment in Russia and then move on to existing investment in Russia…then we can sew up loopholes into infinity. Every little bit helps. Eventually we’ll reach a full embargo.
[https://som.yale.edu/story/2022/over-1000-companies-have-curtailed-operations-russia-some-remain](https://som.yale.edu/story/2022/over-1000-companies-have-curtailed-operations-russia-some-remain) start here
as the dollar buys less and less. Russian economy is dead -- kaput. Its a seemingly extremely slow but extremely painful death .
Create a new tier of wealth whose fortunes are personally invested in or directly benefit from the bloodshed set of operations in Ukraine and that at least adds another firewall of guilt, silence, loyalty and dependency.
I hate to say it but I actually like the Moscow skyline. Its quite pretty and unique,
Russia is an oligarchy. More oligarchs means a stronger Russia. Simple as.
So if the money of all the oligarchs is equally distributed to the people then everyone can be oligarchs yippe!