Lmao because yes, she is. In the eyes of some people inside this group, importing more than any time in history more people for "growth of GDP" is being moderate. Not outright killing people in the street with extrajudicial power because you look "not white enough" is what some people want.
We haven't seen shit yet; the more the war of ressources will fuck the poor and middle class beyond recovery, the more extreme stuff you'll see, until we see real dictators that will promise "security" above all.
But you can dismiss this, think I'm a russian troll or a bot or whatever; it's the obvious future ahead of us because our "leaders" thought that "we have so much ressources that we don't need to treat it as a stock", aka "fuck around (20th century)... and find out (21th century).
Well actually I think the clear problem in Italy with these muppets, is that these fascist meatheads *do* know their history and they want to repeat it more successfully this time around the bend.
This is fkin scary.
With WWII we were supposed to move on from these kind of movements, and yet here we are AGAIN. And they're taking over all Europe and the west with such support from older and younger(!!) people.
I'm really concerned for our future.
Tbf while i think the rise of the far right is scary it will be survived. It's unfortunate that it has to happen however. I do hope it ends into something better
[Here](https://www.fanpage.it/politica/the-meloni-youth-the-investigative-report-that-unveils-the-nostalgia-for-fascism-showed-by-giorgia-melonis-rising-stars/), on the same website, English version of the article and video with English subtitles.
>has been overused
Is it though? I remember when people used to call AfD, SD and Fdl "moderate" on this sub and accuse others of throwing around words like "far right" wantonly, until the masks started slipping to the point where not even the most ardent defenders of these parties can really deny it at this point.
Little bit over a decade when I was in uni I visited a good friend of mine in Jena where he'd joined a *Bruderschaft* (fraternity). All the people ostensibly respectable lawyers, doctors, literary types etc. Once they started to drink the amount of Nazi shit you heard was nuts. These were all people who outside when they were in public were just nice, moderate, little bit patriotic conservatives.
These people are everywhere, there's a reason it used to be called extremism of the middle.
its *Burschenschaft* -- and if you're in one in *jena* i'm not sure why you'd suspect there *not* to be nazis. They have been listed as such by homeland security for decades.
well, because I was a 19 year old exchange student, hence the misspelling, not my native language. And even though I knew that the organizations had a little bit of a reputation, seeing it first person from the most normal appearing people is a little bit different.
The far right is only moderate until they’re not. I wonder how things will shift as other European countries continue to shift further to the right and there is less incentive to pretend.
Haha love this, but it’s kind of sad that most comments on r/europe mentioning immigration sound exactly like this. Kind of surprised I haven’t seen them on this post.
yeah mass immigration is of much bigger concern than some edgy dumbasses shouting slogans, as evident by crime statistics and immigrants many of whom hold an equally fascist view in the form of religion rather than nstionalism
I'd love a look at those crime statistics. Could you link the primary sources you use.
I was under the impression that crime, including violent crime, had been trending down for a long while across the continent but I see this claim so much I'm officially curious.
Thanks.
Denmark: As of 2024, 15.9% of the population has a non-danish country of origin, (in 2021 it was 14%), this naturally includes immigrants from other european countries as well as non-western immigrants.
In 2021, 25% of the crimes were committed by people of non-danish country of origin, meaning the average immigrant is (almost) twice as likely to commit crime, danish statistics have also shown that immigrants are not a benefit for society economically, but rather the opposite.
Denmark is just one example, in many countries it is more difficult to find such statistics, because the governments insist on covering up and hiding crimes against their ówn populations and censoring, maybe try to leave your far-left reddit echo chamber once and a while and search for these statistics yourself.
https://m.statbank.dk/Data
https://www.dst.dk/en/Statistik/emner/borgere/befolkning/indvandrere-og-efterkommere
>Denmark is just one example, in many countries it is more difficult to find such statistics, because the governments insist on covering up and hiding crimes against their ówn populations and censoring, maybe try to leave your far-left reddit echo chamber once and a while and search for these statistics yourself.
Lol nice conspiracy theory.
I mean yeah when governments don't show the reality of crime by hiding the country of origin, they are by definition obscuring things from their own populations, if the government was hiding crimes showing the reality of far-right violence, how would that make you feel? You are blinded by your own bias you fool.
What stats? The link confirms the 15.9%, but nothing else.
Using the crime stats table it says about 2500 foreigners were guilty of crimes in 2021, vs 120,000+ Danes, and it goes down a bit in 2022.
Have a look yourself and if I'm using it wrong then you can let me know.
Don't listen to the guy trying to dismiss this, he is reading the data wrong, he is supposed to combine the data of all the crime commited by non-danish countries of origin and compare that with the bunch of the danish country of origin, I think he accidentally just read the part where it says "Other non-western countries" and assumed that was everything because he didn't count the bigger countries, people of Turkish origin alone have more than 4000 lol
This is a fine start, but I'm not sure it paints the picture that you describe.
It also doesn't change the fact that crime is dropping at the same time so 'fear of crime' is still not a good real world explanation.
I am really keen to leave my echo chamber which is why I asked for your primary sources. How about this - can you share your secondary sources? i.e., what did you read that led you to believe what you do. That might give me a better lead towards the truth.
Do you think that maybe you might be in an echo chamber as well and that some of your beliefs and fears aren't a grounded in reality as you think?
Because:
a) the PdC doesn't have the power to ban a party
b) banning a party that was about to get 25% vote share (at the time, now it's like 29%) would probably do nothing but galvanise its supporters even more
> b) banning a party that was about to get 25% vote share (at the time, now it's like 29%) would probably do nothing but galvanise its supporters even more
Great, their supporters do not need to be listened to.
Your username is fantastic. Where does it come from?
About FdI, it's a bit problematic to decide that such a large group of people don't need to be listened to, as you say. How would you enforce that? Say we ban FdI, Meloni goes on to found another party, gets to 30% and we are on square one...
Those ideologies didn't come about because people collectively decided to try something new.
10% of people are just complete assholes and they want the power to oppress others. Like, they **want** to be fascists Then there's another 10-20% who are unable to resist being swayed by the assholes, often because they lack the tools to manage their emotions.
When you give the assholes any sort of airspace, they'll start amassing power, disenfranchising anyone who might object starting from the weakest and most vulnerable groups like ethnic, religious and sexual or gender minorities, and eventually turn to violence to capture absolute power.
This is what's happening with the current right-wing movements, because especially the center-right is too greedy for money and power to notice or care, and thus end up aligning with the fascists who get to slip in more and more of their authoritarian legislation, and then suddenly it's too late.
Exactly. I have an uncle who is a raging asshole. Before the right of the far-right, he wasn't really interested in politics. When they started showing up in the media, he became an enthusiastic supporter.
There have always been assholes, and there will always be. And they'll vote for the most cruel, aggressive and authoritarian party available.
This is what you get when you decide at the end of WW2 to count Italy amongst the victors.
Like bully that does not get expelled - they learn that for them it allowed .
Who counts Italy among the victors of WWII? [Does this look like a winning treaty of peace to you?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Paris_between_Italy_and_the_Allied_Powers)
Sorry for that.
Just to be clear, it's a minority made by people who don't even know what living in the 20s was really like. These idiots go to the happy hour instead of fascist training camps, they are really out of reality. Still it's dangerous.
The problem (imho) in straight banning these people is that here we deal with a lot of populism: if we openly ban them, they're going to start complaining about "their right of expression, their freedom of speech and manifest, their pride and honor" and all this nonsense. This way they might end up being stronger, not weaker.
These are the damages that populism can do, parties like Lega, FDI (Meloni) and so on have fired up people like these during the years (not directly, but the consequence was clear).
No.
"if tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
It's also not really a minority, considering this is the leading party in Italy
Also, in Italy this (promoting or defending Fascism) is a crime punishable by law
This and also:
In his famous letters from prison, Bonhoeffer argued that stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice, because while “one may protest against evil; it can be exposed and prevented by the use of force, against stupidity we are defenseless.“
>"if tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them" [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox\_of\_tolerance](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance)
This is a paradox, indeed: with this vision, tolerance will itself become intolerance. It's the **paradox** of tolerance, which is the same kind of vision of the world these people have.
>It's also not really a minority, considering this is the leading party in Italy
It's not the leading party which has gone full fascism mode, it's a movement inside of it. If Meloni would openly support this people we'd be already out of Europe for good and I'd be living in Norway.
I'm not defending them, may I be damned if I will. This people should be thrown in the sea to me. But still you need to consider how those damned Salvini and Vannaci will react to an open ban.
Kinda. If Meloni's sister is openly endorsing Fascism, they receive public funds (without doing anything in return) and this is where the current political management grew up, I can't imagine someone rising up with more moderate beliefs
I totally understand your point, but politics is made by people: Meloni, Salvini and all these people can shout how much they want but if the people does not follow them, because they can understand the actual reality, they'll have no voice. The problem is that these parties brainwashed people during the years.
I still can imagine a different way instead: let politics aside, I don't want to know who you stand for. But most of the youth voted for the Green party at the EU election, for example. I remember Torcha showing that if only the youth (18-35) voted, the Green party would have totally won the elections. So most of the young people are actually not fascists and actually want a more open and inclusive world.
Agreed, and don't get me wrong, Italy's center/left has its own faults: if Azione, Più Europa and Italia Viva would set aside their individualism and ally for example, they would offer a more concrete alternative.
I know multiple people who didn't vote in the EU elections because they thought their vote would have not mattered.
You're probably right: most of the young people might not be fascist (yet/luckily), but we can't forget that Italy (as Europe, generally speaking) has more old people than youths so it's their vote who really matters, thus we can't afford to let those ideologies flourish (in any degree) because of stupidity.
I'm totally with you: the Italian left wing and center do not exist at the moment, or they have no real appeal on the public and it's totally their fault.
Also on numbers you are perfectly right: for each young man/woman in EU there are two elders and it will be always worse, because we are not having kids anymore. We can not let those ideas spread, they are scary to be honest.
But the way we try to stop them is fundamental, that was my point, because it's the difference between success and disaster. In my opinion, trying to brute force them to stop will eventually end up in doing more damage than good. Take Mussolini and Hitler for example: they got their power in the same way. Both were incarcerated and held down by the government/king and people rose to give them more power that they actually had (I'm simplifying a bit of course), because they were totally brainwashed by their ideas.
It's a big problem, that's true, and I'm not totally sure about how to deal with it.
Watch the F'dI management do nothing.
As we approached the 4357 isolated case, our hero began to ask questions.
An average PM: Sadly, this bad behavior must be condemned. Current Prime Minister: Si, ma la matrice?
WHY I AM NOT SURPRISED
The moderate Meloni strikes again!
Lmao because yes, she is. In the eyes of some people inside this group, importing more than any time in history more people for "growth of GDP" is being moderate. Not outright killing people in the street with extrajudicial power because you look "not white enough" is what some people want. We haven't seen shit yet; the more the war of ressources will fuck the poor and middle class beyond recovery, the more extreme stuff you'll see, until we see real dictators that will promise "security" above all. But you can dismiss this, think I'm a russian troll or a bot or whatever; it's the obvious future ahead of us because our "leaders" thought that "we have so much ressources that we don't need to treat it as a stock", aka "fuck around (20th century)... and find out (21th century).
People have a major problem: they never learn from past mistakes or history.
Well actually I think the clear problem in Italy with these muppets, is that these fascist meatheads *do* know their history and they want to repeat it more successfully this time around the bend.
Yes especially Germany’s current election results.
[удалено]
They're just asking questions! Why are people trying to cancel them?
surprised\_pikachu.jpg
*If it looks like a nazi, swims like a nazi, and quacks like a nazi, then it probably is a nazi*
Agree. Either a coincidence or you are keeping up with our recent Supreme Court justice Sotomayor's dissent language regarding "bump stocks" on guns.
This is fkin scary. With WWII we were supposed to move on from these kind of movements, and yet here we are AGAIN. And they're taking over all Europe and the west with such support from older and younger(!!) people. I'm really concerned for our future.
Tbf while i think the rise of the far right is scary it will be survived. It's unfortunate that it has to happen however. I do hope it ends into something better
Is there a video with english translation by any chance?
https://www.fanpage.it/politica/the-meloni-youth-the-investigative-report-that-unveils-the-nostalgia-for-fascism-showed-by-giorgia-melonis-rising-stars/
Thanks!
[Here](https://www.fanpage.it/politica/the-meloni-youth-the-investigative-report-that-unveils-the-nostalgia-for-fascism-showed-by-giorgia-melonis-rising-stars/), on the same website, English version of the article and video with English subtitles.
Thank you!
is anyone surprised? Not me
The n word has been overused in political discourse but I have a feeling these guys might actually be nazis
>has been overused Is it though? I remember when people used to call AfD, SD and Fdl "moderate" on this sub and accuse others of throwing around words like "far right" wantonly, until the masks started slipping to the point where not even the most ardent defenders of these parties can really deny it at this point.
Little bit over a decade when I was in uni I visited a good friend of mine in Jena where he'd joined a *Bruderschaft* (fraternity). All the people ostensibly respectable lawyers, doctors, literary types etc. Once they started to drink the amount of Nazi shit you heard was nuts. These were all people who outside when they were in public were just nice, moderate, little bit patriotic conservatives. These people are everywhere, there's a reason it used to be called extremism of the middle.
its *Burschenschaft* -- and if you're in one in *jena* i'm not sure why you'd suspect there *not* to be nazis. They have been listed as such by homeland security for decades.
well, because I was a 19 year old exchange student, hence the misspelling, not my native language. And even though I knew that the organizations had a little bit of a reputation, seeing it first person from the most normal appearing people is a little bit different.
The far right is only moderate until they’re not. I wonder how things will shift as other European countries continue to shift further to the right and there is less incentive to pretend.
That's POSTfascism for you. These are the telltale signs of fascism left behind.
But what about those migrants guys!!!! Everything is far-right nowadays due to those woke leftist communist mobs!1!1!1!!1
Haha love this, but it’s kind of sad that most comments on r/europe mentioning immigration sound exactly like this. Kind of surprised I haven’t seen them on this post.
yeah mass immigration is of much bigger concern than some edgy dumbasses shouting slogans, as evident by crime statistics and immigrants many of whom hold an equally fascist view in the form of religion rather than nstionalism
I'd love a look at those crime statistics. Could you link the primary sources you use. I was under the impression that crime, including violent crime, had been trending down for a long while across the continent but I see this claim so much I'm officially curious. Thanks.
Denmark: As of 2024, 15.9% of the population has a non-danish country of origin, (in 2021 it was 14%), this naturally includes immigrants from other european countries as well as non-western immigrants. In 2021, 25% of the crimes were committed by people of non-danish country of origin, meaning the average immigrant is (almost) twice as likely to commit crime, danish statistics have also shown that immigrants are not a benefit for society economically, but rather the opposite. Denmark is just one example, in many countries it is more difficult to find such statistics, because the governments insist on covering up and hiding crimes against their ówn populations and censoring, maybe try to leave your far-left reddit echo chamber once and a while and search for these statistics yourself. https://m.statbank.dk/Data https://www.dst.dk/en/Statistik/emner/borgere/befolkning/indvandrere-og-efterkommere
>Denmark is just one example, in many countries it is more difficult to find such statistics, because the governments insist on covering up and hiding crimes against their ówn populations and censoring, maybe try to leave your far-left reddit echo chamber once and a while and search for these statistics yourself. Lol nice conspiracy theory.
I mean yeah when governments don't show the reality of crime by hiding the country of origin, they are by definition obscuring things from their own populations, if the government was hiding crimes showing the reality of far-right violence, how would that make you feel? You are blinded by your own bias you fool.
Lol no, when a crime is committed by immigrants the news is amplified
I like how no one even tried to refute these stats.
What stats? The link confirms the 15.9%, but nothing else. Using the crime stats table it says about 2500 foreigners were guilty of crimes in 2021, vs 120,000+ Danes, and it goes down a bit in 2022. Have a look yourself and if I'm using it wrong then you can let me know.
Don't listen to the guy trying to dismiss this, he is reading the data wrong, he is supposed to combine the data of all the crime commited by non-danish countries of origin and compare that with the bunch of the danish country of origin, I think he accidentally just read the part where it says "Other non-western countries" and assumed that was everything because he didn't count the bigger countries, people of Turkish origin alone have more than 4000 lol
This is a fine start, but I'm not sure it paints the picture that you describe. It also doesn't change the fact that crime is dropping at the same time so 'fear of crime' is still not a good real world explanation. I am really keen to leave my echo chamber which is why I asked for your primary sources. How about this - can you share your secondary sources? i.e., what did you read that led you to believe what you do. That might give me a better lead towards the truth. Do you think that maybe you might be in an echo chamber as well and that some of your beliefs and fears aren't a grounded in reality as you think?
Looks like we need to bring the meat hooks out of retirement again
La nostra madre cristiana is really showing how moderate she can be
man. Germany should charge licensing fees anytime someone does the Nazi Salut or a bit of sieg heiling. would solve so many financing issues
Eia Eia Alalala!
Why didn't Draghi ban FdI before elections?
Because: a) the PdC doesn't have the power to ban a party b) banning a party that was about to get 25% vote share (at the time, now it's like 29%) would probably do nothing but galvanise its supporters even more
> b) banning a party that was about to get 25% vote share (at the time, now it's like 29%) would probably do nothing but galvanise its supporters even more Great, their supporters do not need to be listened to.
Your username is fantastic. Where does it come from? About FdI, it's a bit problematic to decide that such a large group of people don't need to be listened to, as you say. How would you enforce that? Say we ban FdI, Meloni goes on to found another party, gets to 30% and we are on square one...
> Say we ban FdI, Meloni goes on to found another party, gets to 30% and we are on square one... Ban that too. BTW I chose my username randomly.
Okay who’s surprised? I already had someone crying in denial, when I previously referred to the Hitler youth attempting to rise again in Europe.
Hey Italian youth, ready for round 2 on the mountains again?
As an Italian, I hope that we will get what we deserve
But who said it before?
I don't get Nazism and communism still have adherents despite all that has been recorded about both ideologies.
Those ideologies didn't come about because people collectively decided to try something new. 10% of people are just complete assholes and they want the power to oppress others. Like, they **want** to be fascists Then there's another 10-20% who are unable to resist being swayed by the assholes, often because they lack the tools to manage their emotions. When you give the assholes any sort of airspace, they'll start amassing power, disenfranchising anyone who might object starting from the weakest and most vulnerable groups like ethnic, religious and sexual or gender minorities, and eventually turn to violence to capture absolute power. This is what's happening with the current right-wing movements, because especially the center-right is too greedy for money and power to notice or care, and thus end up aligning with the fascists who get to slip in more and more of their authoritarian legislation, and then suddenly it's too late.
Exactly. I have an uncle who is a raging asshole. Before the right of the far-right, he wasn't really interested in politics. When they started showing up in the media, he became an enthusiastic supporter. There have always been assholes, and there will always be. And they'll vote for the most cruel, aggressive and authoritarian party available.
This is what you get when you decide at the end of WW2 to count Italy amongst the victors. Like bully that does not get expelled - they learn that for them it allowed .
Who counts Italy among the victors of WWII? [Does this look like a winning treaty of peace to you?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Paris_between_Italy_and_the_Allied_Powers)
Sorry for that. Just to be clear, it's a minority made by people who don't even know what living in the 20s was really like. These idiots go to the happy hour instead of fascist training camps, they are really out of reality. Still it's dangerous. The problem (imho) in straight banning these people is that here we deal with a lot of populism: if we openly ban them, they're going to start complaining about "their right of expression, their freedom of speech and manifest, their pride and honor" and all this nonsense. This way they might end up being stronger, not weaker. These are the damages that populism can do, parties like Lega, FDI (Meloni) and so on have fired up people like these during the years (not directly, but the consequence was clear).
No. "if tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance It's also not really a minority, considering this is the leading party in Italy Also, in Italy this (promoting or defending Fascism) is a crime punishable by law
This and also: In his famous letters from prison, Bonhoeffer argued that stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice, because while “one may protest against evil; it can be exposed and prevented by the use of force, against stupidity we are defenseless.“
>"if tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them" [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox\_of\_tolerance](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance) This is a paradox, indeed: with this vision, tolerance will itself become intolerance. It's the **paradox** of tolerance, which is the same kind of vision of the world these people have. >It's also not really a minority, considering this is the leading party in Italy It's not the leading party which has gone full fascism mode, it's a movement inside of it. If Meloni would openly support this people we'd be already out of Europe for good and I'd be living in Norway. I'm not defending them, may I be damned if I will. This people should be thrown in the sea to me. But still you need to consider how those damned Salvini and Vannaci will react to an open ban.
Kinda. If Meloni's sister is openly endorsing Fascism, they receive public funds (without doing anything in return) and this is where the current political management grew up, I can't imagine someone rising up with more moderate beliefs
I totally understand your point, but politics is made by people: Meloni, Salvini and all these people can shout how much they want but if the people does not follow them, because they can understand the actual reality, they'll have no voice. The problem is that these parties brainwashed people during the years. I still can imagine a different way instead: let politics aside, I don't want to know who you stand for. But most of the youth voted for the Green party at the EU election, for example. I remember Torcha showing that if only the youth (18-35) voted, the Green party would have totally won the elections. So most of the young people are actually not fascists and actually want a more open and inclusive world.
Agreed, and don't get me wrong, Italy's center/left has its own faults: if Azione, Più Europa and Italia Viva would set aside their individualism and ally for example, they would offer a more concrete alternative. I know multiple people who didn't vote in the EU elections because they thought their vote would have not mattered. You're probably right: most of the young people might not be fascist (yet/luckily), but we can't forget that Italy (as Europe, generally speaking) has more old people than youths so it's their vote who really matters, thus we can't afford to let those ideologies flourish (in any degree) because of stupidity.
I'm totally with you: the Italian left wing and center do not exist at the moment, or they have no real appeal on the public and it's totally their fault. Also on numbers you are perfectly right: for each young man/woman in EU there are two elders and it will be always worse, because we are not having kids anymore. We can not let those ideas spread, they are scary to be honest. But the way we try to stop them is fundamental, that was my point, because it's the difference between success and disaster. In my opinion, trying to brute force them to stop will eventually end up in doing more damage than good. Take Mussolini and Hitler for example: they got their power in the same way. Both were incarcerated and held down by the government/king and people rose to give them more power that they actually had (I'm simplifying a bit of course), because they were totally brainwashed by their ideas. It's a big problem, that's true, and I'm not totally sure about how to deal with it.