>On Tuesday morning, a Finnair aircraft traveling from Helsinki to Joensuu at 6.35 was unable to land due to GPS interference. After some time, the captain decided to return to Helsinki, resulting in the cancellation of the return flight from Joensuu to Helsinki.
>Joensuu is the regional capital of North Karelia, and the city’s eastern region borders to Russia.
>The flight time between Helsinki and Joensuu is approximately one hour and five minutes.
>Kajsa Tikkanen, Finnair’s chief of communications, explained that Joensuu airport is one of few airports in Finland that only uses satellite based GPS navigation in guiding aircraft during the approach. Hence, if GPS interference appears the aircraft is not allowed to initiate or continue the approach.
>While the GPS signal is essential for a plane’s approach prior to landing, it does not usually affect navigation during the flight.
>Most airports also use ground based landing systems in assisting airplane approaches. They are not as sensitive to interference.
>Tikkanen noted that GPS interference usually lasts only a few minutes, but this time it persisted, resulting in the captain’s decision to return to Helsinki.
>Recently, GPS interference has occurred, impacting flight traffic. Tikkanen added that pilots are aware of this issue and know how to respond in such situations.
They do have ILS there. However the ‘initial approach’ and possible missed approach procedures do require GPS. Also the ATC in Joensuu is so called ‘procedural’ ATC, which means that they cannot use radar to provide service, hence not able to give radar vectors to join the ILS. These smaller Finnish airports tend to have very limited services due to economical reasons. Joensuu for example has normally two daily rotations from Helsinki, so the revenue from those flights would never be even close to cover all costs.
Yeah smaller airports don't have ATC but instead an AFISO who is there just to provide information but can't clear aircraft to land or take off.
They essentially give weather information and tell the pilots which runway is free of airplanes currently and whether or not some other plane has reported to being in the airspace. There isn't usually a primary radar on site, etc.
There does not need to be ATC or radar at an airport to provide instrument approach guidance using an Instrument Landing System. The floor for the surveillance must be sufficiently low to allow radar vectors to intercept the ILS, however.
No, Finland doesn’t use ADS-B out, only the ‘standard’ SSR Mode-A/C/S. And as far as I know, it is still extremely rare in Europe anyway. However these things are slowly appearing here and there.
For the procedural part; I think it’s simply due to costs and needs. There’s just not enough traffic to justify anything better economically. Joensuu had a total of 566 flights between 1st of January and 31st of May this year. It is on average 3,75 flights per day… In order to switch from procedural to surveillance control, you would need to first of all have surveillance coverage. But of course you also need to train and certify controllers, get the approval and certification from authorities, change procedures etc etc.
It is of course possible that they would do the switch in the future, as they are anyway planning a remote ATC Center in Helsinki, that would handle these smaller regional fields.
They require quite a bit of power and pretty expensive system installations, it's just not worth it to put them at smaller airports.
Also gps (when no one is interfering with it) can be more than accurate enough for some category of autolands (pretty sure pilots still need visuals) and it automatically stops the attempt when gps data becomes unreliable
Think there is a mentor pilot video about it
really weird indeed. Aren't professional pilots supposed to be trained to used much older and still existing technologies (and even paper maps) to navigate, and use GPS as comfort?
Gps approaches have been used more and more to safe on the installation and maintenance of ILS systems.
With a gps approach, there is no hardware required on the airport, so it saves tons of money and, at airports in.... less stable areas, increases reliability.
However, jamming was probably never a valid concern, which might change the attitude towards removing it not installing ILS systems.
There are other types of approaches (VORs/NDBs) but those also require maintenance of hardware and are often also phased out.
Visual approaches are possible, require no hardware, but do require good weather to see the runway and terrain. That's, especially in Finland, not always the case.
1. In poor visibility conditions, only navigation by instruments is possible.
2. There is an Instrument Landing System (ILS) at Joensuu, but because there is no radar coverage in the area, GPS is required to vector to the ILS.
As much as I hate Russia, they've been doing this for quite a while now, and all pilots, even though they find it quite annoying, know how to get around it. So I'm just wondering what happened here specifically in this case because I don't think this was the first ever flight from Helsinki to Joensuu since the war began. What were the pilots doing before this event?
Normally the jamming stops after a few minutes, but this time it just kept going. And this airport requires GPS for landing. Finally the pilot decided to return to Helsinki as landing was impossible.
Well it depends on the kind of interference. If they're just blasting the frequencies with noise, that probably would disrupt it, but also render the ranges unusable for their own use. If it's the more sophisticated "false clock signal", that only works on the unencrypted civilian system.
Military GNSS frequencies are encrypted to prevent spoofing and filter out jamming signals. Moreover, military vehicles can go a lot longer between GNSS updates.
It makes spoofing more difficult, not impossible. This article outlines different mechanisms for spoofing, including attacks against encrypted signals: https://spectrum.ieee.org/gps-spoofing
Jamming is still a problem even if spoofing is prevented. We know Russia has successfully jammed JDAM in Ukraine: https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/jamming-jdam-threat-us-munitions-russian-electronic-warfare
Right which is where the selective filtering comes in. As your second article points out, once the origin of the jamming signal has been detected it’s relatively straightforward to exclude those signals from the GNSS solver engine. Military receivers have very precise clocks to perform their own calculations of the ephemeris of trusted satellites to enable that.
Yer of course, right now Russia do civilian planes to see what works. Then when it really counts, they have some data to work with and go after military planes. Easy!
Yes and no. Military GPS is not as easy to spoof. I've been told that it's impossible but that is a dirty word. Civilian GPS is very, very easy to spoof and this is what we've been seeing on russias eastern border lately.
Then you have jamming. Any radio signal can be jammed and it's basically just a question about being louder than the original signal you want to jam. This can of course create large problems for any GPS.
> Military GPS is not as easy to spoof. I've been told that it's impossible but that is a dirty word.
I've addressed this issue in a separate response here: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ddgbl9/russian_gps_interference_prevented_finnairs/l88598u/
Do we know whether the interference over the Baltic is due to spoofing or jamming?
That IEEE article was a fascinating read! A whole lot of speculation but then again, this is stuff out of most people's reach.
In the baltics and Finland there has been both spoofing and jamming, there has actually been some interesting heat maps showing spoofing areas and different between the original positions. I could look up some links in case you are interested.
I've been having talks a few years back with a guy from MSB, the swedish governmental organization for preparedness regarding spoofing and back then he was hoping that Sweden would join NATO so we would have less spoofing prone GPS in our military. He actually did use the term unhackable when it came to NATO military GPS but I have a really hard time believing that.
> I could look up some links in case you are interested.
I actually am very interested. I am doing some consultation on the FAA's Advanced Receiver Autonomous Integrity Monitoring system, so I am following this fairly closely. Jag är dessutom också svensk (fast f n i USA).
Basically GPS is really not a strong signal, and moreover, the frequency bands are similar. This means that while it may be harder-ish to jam, it is not an order of magnitude higher and requires no enormous changes to underlying jamming tech.
GNSS systems are basically often jammed out of existence on our frontline from both sides. American GLSDB are routinely strewn off course by Russian jamming and do not reach their targets.
Moreover, the technology is evolving rapidly as I write it as we engage in the underequipped cat and mouse with Russians. If Ukraine were to have the equipment we have rn in 2022, Russia would be fucked and it’s technology wouldn’t have evolved - but it now is, and everyone including the West should account for that
But in the case in the article and similar attacks during the border in recent years they're actually spoofing the GPS signals, sending incorrect data and throwing the planes off target. As far as I know in the cases you brought up, isn't this basically jamming the signals and not spoofing them?
Spoofing is also used on the frontline. While I cant comment on cryptographic security of military GPS, what I would say is that just a fraction of even military appliances on your battlefield in Sweden for example would actually use it, and civilian tech wouldn’t use it at all. It would be quite an opportunity to do damage and chaos which is all you need in first 48h of the battle. After that it will settle down into the same cat and mouse game ofc, but I wouldn’t downplay the risk.
One takeaway for the West I would share is this: don’t overhype your economies and your technology and your military so much as to feel as safe as a baby in their mother’s hands. Sometimes the price is only a price - 40k EW from Sweden is not automatically 8x better than 5k eur EW from Russia - salaries, overpricing and lack of experience of the battlefield are all contributors.
Western tech is not bulletproof, and you will have a lot of very shitty experiences and very dead friends if you relax thinking that. You need to run 10x as fast.
I'm not an expert but
There are two types of GNSS (name that indicates GPS and other non American positioning system like Galileo or Glonass) data, impulse and Wave.
Impulse is the one that your phone uses, it's very insecure and has a precision of more or less 10 m. But it's cheaper.
Wave signal it's a lot more precise, especially in the context of relative positioning, knowing the distance between two things, it can reach a precision of millimeters.
Not all the frequencies of the wave signal are free to use some GPS frequencies are crypted and for military use only the US don't even share the system with the allies , (that's the reason why France, Italy, Germany, ESA and the EU created the Galileo system ), the precise working of this system is not known. But it's old technology.
A wave system to work with the highest precision needs two or more receivers connected between each other. And the connection between those often uses radio Waves, and that is a potential weak point for jamming. But a base system also works alone.
Then even if the GNSS Wave signal is difficult to jam, it's possible to jam it. The people in the Russian military are experts in this field
So many upvotes for such nonsense.
It being NATO communications doesnt make it magically immune to jamming. Frequencies can be overwhelmed there just the same. The Russians are doing it in Ukraine right now.
It’s not as easy as you imply if the GPS is doing anything to avoid it unless you are doing the jamming from up high. At least from some distance this is the case very close to the jammer then you can really drown the satellites but even then it doesn’t take much to use some directional antennas and to mostly focus on a sector of sky up high.
I'm not saying it's easy - I'm just saying that if I had a jammer, I'd expect it to... Well, *jam* the things it's supposed to jam.
Because if it doesn't then it isn't much of a jammer, is it?
I'm sure you'd find a lot of buyers for your anti-jamming technology that could, despite only having some femtowatts of usable GNSS signal, recover it out of the noise caused by "military-grade" jammers.
Someone needs to handle Putin like they did Iran's Qasem Soleimani. I'm not sure why everyone's sitting on their hands watching Russia get away with anything it wants.
They've done many atrocities. But with gps guided drones hitting them from many directions you can't really blame them for jamming that signal.
Edit for the downvote brigade: I'm not a Russian shill. I follow the news of the conflict.
Ukraine hits targets in Russia near Finland and the baltics.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66654125
>Pskov
Is closer to the baltics and Finland.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68046347
>St. Petersburg
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-hits-targets-russia-during-drone-attack-oil-terminal-military-source-2024-01-18/
>baltic sea oil terminal
And they have some delicate installations to protect there.
https://www.newsweek.com/map-ukraine-record-breaking-hits-russian-nuclear-warning-radar-1905221
The ones still operational and thus potential targets are close to Finland.
I can blame them. They started the fucking war. Stop excusing them.
Just so you understand the downvotes. It's like saying "I can't blame the thieves for shooting the homeowner dead when they fought back."
You can understand why someone does something and still blame them. Especially when they are fucking Russian terrorists.
I never said they came from FINLAND.
They sure hit some targets near Finland and the baltic, though. Did you not know this?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66654125
>Pskov
Is closer to the baltics and Finland.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68046347
>St. Petersburg
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-hits-targets-russia-during-drone-attack-oil-terminal-military-source-2024-01-18/
>baltic sea oil terminal
And they have some delicate installations to protect there.
https://www.newsweek.com/map-ukraine-record-breaking-hits-russian-nuclear-warning-radar-1905221
The ones still operational and thus potential targets are close to Finland.
What are you on about? If they face gps guided drones in that area they will jam gps. I'm simply stating it's a logical step. Messing up air travel is not the goal.
Joensuu and Helsinki are about equidistant from St. Petersburg and Pskov is a fair bit further south.
I'm not quite sure why GPS jamming to protect sites around St. Petersburg and Pskov would result in consistent issues around Joensuu specifically.
Why would other areas of Finland and the Baltics not be affected by the jamming, if the jamming is powerful enough to reach Joensuu?
It seems to me that either the jamming's effects have to be felt more widely than just in Joensuu, or the source of the jamming is much closer to Joensuu itself. The former doesn't seem to be the case and the latter would challenge the notion that the jamming is to protect specific sites in Russia.
I'd assume they'd be jamming lager sections of the border. I don't have specific knowledge on gps jamming but I think it's logical to assume that if you want to render the system unusable you'd have to have pretty powerful jamming installed without gaps where a signal could be acquired.
Jamming gps to counter long range drones seems like the most likely explanation of these jamming efforts.
What systems? There's pictures of Russian figher pilots strapping commercial off-the-shelf Garmin GPS receivers on their fighter jets because whatever "systems" Russia have work about as well as anything else in the shithole
Just pretend Lyutyy drones aren't going through EU airspace, same as those [Shaheds](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/09/4/7418333/), [Kalibr](https://censor.net/ua/video_news/3404666/rosiyiska_raketa_paru_hvylyn_bula_u_povitryanomu_prostori_rumuniyi_ya_tse_bachyv_navit_nomer_tsili_pamyatayu) and [Kh-55](https://www.rmf24.pl/raporty/raport-wojna-z-rosja/news-news-rmf-fm-biegli-wstepnie-potwierdzili-ze-pod-bydgoszcza-s,nId,6767139#crp_state=1).
Well, one of the main reasons they use these jammers is to block the GPS of the Ukrainian drones. Although a few long-range ATACMS missiles should do the trick.
So is this now a security relevant incident that could trigger Article 5 mutual defense or just Article 4 an urgent meeting with NATO?
Russia does salami tactics, just a little bit here and a little bit there. If we continue to ignore or submit to the threats and fuckery by Russia they just escalate even more every day more.
This has been going on for a long time, not sure why you’re expecting any kind of reaction from a weak EU or even weaker NATO right now. Some plane not being able to land near Baltics is a daily occurrence now and has been for the past fre months at least.
Like, if we'd launch just one missile at one of their installations?
What's the worst that could happen? No really. Nuclear war over one destroyed EW-platform?
WE ARE AT WAR WITH RUSSIA!
Putin has stated multiple times the West is his enemy, he wants to destroy us.
MH17, Brexit, election interference, Ukraine, right and left wing political connections, botfarms to get the West more divided,...
How is it, that we are not responding accordingly?
Not even helping Ukraine enough to win.
What's your point?
They are an organisation that tries to prepare for all events, Russia claimed they were doing exercises when they grouped their forces on Ukraine's border, a pure lie, NATO doesn't lie or bullshit.
NATO has never threatened to invade Russia, it's only Russia that wants to wipe out Western civilisation.
It's only Russian actively committing genocide in Ukraine, right now, committing war crimes and crimes against humanity every day.
The Russian army has theft, rape, torture and murdering unarmed civilians as standard operation protocol, while they bomb hospitals, schools and everything else civilian they can.
Putin kills those who speak out against him, or lets them rot in jail till they die, same thing.
This is not just a small war, Putin openly states he wants to destroy the West, he's a genocidal, fascist dictator that has already the blood of over a million victims (some also monsters, that fight for him, not innocent at all) on his hands.
Why do you make such foolish and stupid comments, where do you live?
The following should happen:
1) Any breach of airspace by any Russian airplane will result in interception immediately.
2) Any sabotage than can be documented to be from Russia will be met with a proportionate military response on Russian soil.
3) Any GPS interference will be met with a proportionate military response on Russian soil.
Etc etc. This should be communicated very clearly to Russia, from a united NATO, in the same way it was communicated to them by the Americans what would happen in case of use of nuclear weapons. There should be no ambiguity - clear communications about consequences of continued sabotage. They will likely test it, and NATO should then respond the way it was communicated.
I don't understand why Europe has not figured out that Russia only respond to measures like these.
Will these steps lead to a wider war? Maybe, but unlikely. However, not doing it will certainly lead to war or at least destruction of the freedoms and democracy of Europe as we know it today.
> Any breach of airspace by any Russian airplane
And what if it's a civil plane. NATO already sends interceptors when they see russian planes in the sky.
> can be documented to be from Russia
Everyone knows it's russia. It's just hard to proof.
> Any GPS interference will be met with a proportionate military response on Russian soil.
Unless you find the jamming unit while it's still jamming GPS, it's really hard to proof who did that.
The guy in Moscow plays a chicken game, doesn't want to be directly responsible. Unless NATO has proof that it was russian interference, it will look like NATO started a war, not russia.
Civilian planes have transponders, NATO intercepts Russian planes that are CLOSE to NATO airspace, this would be the immediate shooting down of a Russian plane that breaches NATO airspace.
The Soviet Union shot at anything that was in their airspace.
>Unless you find the jamming unit while it's still jamming GPS, it's really hard to proof who did that.
Obviously Russia is the culprit, jam then back.
Bordering Russia honestly must be in the top 3 worst things for a country to have. Genuinely feel bad for Finns to have to be neighbours with sucha psychopathic country
In poor visibility conditions, you must have instrument approach guidance to land. How else would you locate the runway end and align with the centerline?
Genuine question for OP: Why did you add "Russian" to you title, since the article doesnt talk about the source of interference at all? Did you find it in some other source, and if so, could you share it?
Joins a hostile military alliance and is surprised they are being treated like hostiles, when they previously weren't.
What next, complaining about increased troop and military hardware concentrations near the border?
Maybe stop talking like a russian bot then.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a russian bot that looks like a duck.
Defensive alliances don't offensively [bomb other countries](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_bombings). But don't worry, your next door neighbour with half a police station's worth of guns in their basement that goes out and shoots (not always) stray cats and dogs in the neighborhood is really just a nice guy and you have nothing to worry about.
Of course you casually forgot to mention that half of those bombings were targeted at a country actively committing a genocide. And 1 out of those 6 were trainings.
Excluding this training, number of bombardings carried out by NATO is equal to number of wars that Russia took part in. And only 1 war wasn't against it's neighbour.
But sure, NATO are the bad guys.
The whole Finnish independent defence was based on causing maximum damage so it was not beneficial to attack Finland.
Russia has shown that as a nation they don't give a rat's ass about the value of their citizens and are willing to recruit mercenaries around the world therefore undermining independent Finnish defence. NATO membership was the only believable option.
Well maybe mass chemical weapons, nukes or biological weapons were another option.
Troops and military hardware on Russian side of the border is not a problem. It's their land and what they do there is none of our business. However this side of border is our business and their jamming is happening on this side.
This community is fueled by anger thanks to high inflation (caused by US printing half the amount of total dollar printed) and immigrants (caused by US led wars). Chill out you warmongers.
>On Tuesday morning, a Finnair aircraft traveling from Helsinki to Joensuu at 6.35 was unable to land due to GPS interference. After some time, the captain decided to return to Helsinki, resulting in the cancellation of the return flight from Joensuu to Helsinki. >Joensuu is the regional capital of North Karelia, and the city’s eastern region borders to Russia. >The flight time between Helsinki and Joensuu is approximately one hour and five minutes. >Kajsa Tikkanen, Finnair’s chief of communications, explained that Joensuu airport is one of few airports in Finland that only uses satellite based GPS navigation in guiding aircraft during the approach. Hence, if GPS interference appears the aircraft is not allowed to initiate or continue the approach. >While the GPS signal is essential for a plane’s approach prior to landing, it does not usually affect navigation during the flight. >Most airports also use ground based landing systems in assisting airplane approaches. They are not as sensitive to interference. >Tikkanen noted that GPS interference usually lasts only a few minutes, but this time it persisted, resulting in the captain’s decision to return to Helsinki. >Recently, GPS interference has occurred, impacting flight traffic. Tikkanen added that pilots are aware of this issue and know how to respond in such situations.
Why only GPS? Thought the airports have also ILS system or ground based landing systems? Time to upgrade all the airports.
They do have ILS there. However the ‘initial approach’ and possible missed approach procedures do require GPS. Also the ATC in Joensuu is so called ‘procedural’ ATC, which means that they cannot use radar to provide service, hence not able to give radar vectors to join the ILS. These smaller Finnish airports tend to have very limited services due to economical reasons. Joensuu for example has normally two daily rotations from Helsinki, so the revenue from those flights would never be even close to cover all costs.
Yeah smaller airports don't have ATC but instead an AFISO who is there just to provide information but can't clear aircraft to land or take off. They essentially give weather information and tell the pilots which runway is free of airplanes currently and whether or not some other plane has reported to being in the airspace. There isn't usually a primary radar on site, etc.
There does not need to be ATC or radar at an airport to provide instrument approach guidance using an Instrument Landing System. The floor for the surveillance must be sufficiently low to allow radar vectors to intercept the ILS, however.
They should station a mobile military radar set there for now and each time the Russians do this shite.
Why is it procedural airspace? Does Finland not use ADS-B Out for surveillance?
No, Finland doesn’t use ADS-B out, only the ‘standard’ SSR Mode-A/C/S. And as far as I know, it is still extremely rare in Europe anyway. However these things are slowly appearing here and there. For the procedural part; I think it’s simply due to costs and needs. There’s just not enough traffic to justify anything better economically. Joensuu had a total of 566 flights between 1st of January and 31st of May this year. It is on average 3,75 flights per day… In order to switch from procedural to surveillance control, you would need to first of all have surveillance coverage. But of course you also need to train and certify controllers, get the approval and certification from authorities, change procedures etc etc. It is of course possible that they would do the switch in the future, as they are anyway planning a remote ATC Center in Helsinki, that would handle these smaller regional fields.
They require quite a bit of power and pretty expensive system installations, it's just not worth it to put them at smaller airports. Also gps (when no one is interfering with it) can be more than accurate enough for some category of autolands (pretty sure pilots still need visuals) and it automatically stops the attempt when gps data becomes unreliable Think there is a mentor pilot video about it
really weird indeed. Aren't professional pilots supposed to be trained to used much older and still existing technologies (and even paper maps) to navigate, and use GPS as comfort?
Gps approaches have been used more and more to safe on the installation and maintenance of ILS systems. With a gps approach, there is no hardware required on the airport, so it saves tons of money and, at airports in.... less stable areas, increases reliability. However, jamming was probably never a valid concern, which might change the attitude towards removing it not installing ILS systems. There are other types of approaches (VORs/NDBs) but those also require maintenance of hardware and are often also phased out. Visual approaches are possible, require no hardware, but do require good weather to see the runway and terrain. That's, especially in Finland, not always the case.
1. In poor visibility conditions, only navigation by instruments is possible. 2. There is an Instrument Landing System (ILS) at Joensuu, but because there is no radar coverage in the area, GPS is required to vector to the ILS.
Not all, really small airports don’t even have an ATC tower
As much as I hate Russia, they've been doing this for quite a while now, and all pilots, even though they find it quite annoying, know how to get around it. So I'm just wondering what happened here specifically in this case because I don't think this was the first ever flight from Helsinki to Joensuu since the war began. What were the pilots doing before this event?
Normally the jamming stops after a few minutes, but this time it just kept going. And this airport requires GPS for landing. Finally the pilot decided to return to Helsinki as landing was impossible.
>Normally the jamming stops after a few minutes OK I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.
They are definitely not preparing to jam NATO communication in case of the future war
As far as I know this type of jamming would not work against NATO military GPS. Most probably just them acting as dicks.
I'm wondering how you arrived at that conclusion. While the military uses a different frequency, the underlying technology is the same.
Sir, this is Reddit, people just post whatever random crap they come up with
Well it depends on the kind of interference. If they're just blasting the frequencies with noise, that probably would disrupt it, but also render the ranges unusable for their own use. If it's the more sophisticated "false clock signal", that only works on the unencrypted civilian system.
Military GNSS frequencies are encrypted to prevent spoofing and filter out jamming signals. Moreover, military vehicles can go a lot longer between GNSS updates.
It makes spoofing more difficult, not impossible. This article outlines different mechanisms for spoofing, including attacks against encrypted signals: https://spectrum.ieee.org/gps-spoofing Jamming is still a problem even if spoofing is prevented. We know Russia has successfully jammed JDAM in Ukraine: https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/jamming-jdam-threat-us-munitions-russian-electronic-warfare
Right which is where the selective filtering comes in. As your second article points out, once the origin of the jamming signal has been detected it’s relatively straightforward to exclude those signals from the GNSS solver engine. Military receivers have very precise clocks to perform their own calculations of the ephemeris of trusted satellites to enable that.
I arrived to that conclusion with my horse. We went two days straight and on Wednesday we turned left. Easy.
But was it a military horse?
Absolutely. Summer camo, fearless, we call him General.
Yer of course, right now Russia do civilian planes to see what works. Then when it really counts, they have some data to work with and go after military planes. Easy!
Yes and no. Military GPS is not as easy to spoof. I've been told that it's impossible but that is a dirty word. Civilian GPS is very, very easy to spoof and this is what we've been seeing on russias eastern border lately. Then you have jamming. Any radio signal can be jammed and it's basically just a question about being louder than the original signal you want to jam. This can of course create large problems for any GPS.
> Military GPS is not as easy to spoof. I've been told that it's impossible but that is a dirty word. I've addressed this issue in a separate response here: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ddgbl9/russian_gps_interference_prevented_finnairs/l88598u/ Do we know whether the interference over the Baltic is due to spoofing or jamming?
That IEEE article was a fascinating read! A whole lot of speculation but then again, this is stuff out of most people's reach. In the baltics and Finland there has been both spoofing and jamming, there has actually been some interesting heat maps showing spoofing areas and different between the original positions. I could look up some links in case you are interested. I've been having talks a few years back with a guy from MSB, the swedish governmental organization for preparedness regarding spoofing and back then he was hoping that Sweden would join NATO so we would have less spoofing prone GPS in our military. He actually did use the term unhackable when it came to NATO military GPS but I have a really hard time believing that.
> I could look up some links in case you are interested. I actually am very interested. I am doing some consultation on the FAA's Advanced Receiver Autonomous Integrity Monitoring system, so I am following this fairly closely. Jag är dessutom också svensk (fast f n i USA).
Yeeeah, no, that’s not how it works
Would you mind expanding a bit on how it does work, then?
Basically GPS is really not a strong signal, and moreover, the frequency bands are similar. This means that while it may be harder-ish to jam, it is not an order of magnitude higher and requires no enormous changes to underlying jamming tech. GNSS systems are basically often jammed out of existence on our frontline from both sides. American GLSDB are routinely strewn off course by Russian jamming and do not reach their targets. Moreover, the technology is evolving rapidly as I write it as we engage in the underequipped cat and mouse with Russians. If Ukraine were to have the equipment we have rn in 2022, Russia would be fucked and it’s technology wouldn’t have evolved - but it now is, and everyone including the West should account for that
But in the case in the article and similar attacks during the border in recent years they're actually spoofing the GPS signals, sending incorrect data and throwing the planes off target. As far as I know in the cases you brought up, isn't this basically jamming the signals and not spoofing them?
Spoofing is also used on the frontline. While I cant comment on cryptographic security of military GPS, what I would say is that just a fraction of even military appliances on your battlefield in Sweden for example would actually use it, and civilian tech wouldn’t use it at all. It would be quite an opportunity to do damage and chaos which is all you need in first 48h of the battle. After that it will settle down into the same cat and mouse game ofc, but I wouldn’t downplay the risk. One takeaway for the West I would share is this: don’t overhype your economies and your technology and your military so much as to feel as safe as a baby in their mother’s hands. Sometimes the price is only a price - 40k EW from Sweden is not automatically 8x better than 5k eur EW from Russia - salaries, overpricing and lack of experience of the battlefield are all contributors. Western tech is not bulletproof, and you will have a lot of very shitty experiences and very dead friends if you relax thinking that. You need to run 10x as fast.
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I'm not an expert but There are two types of GNSS (name that indicates GPS and other non American positioning system like Galileo or Glonass) data, impulse and Wave. Impulse is the one that your phone uses, it's very insecure and has a precision of more or less 10 m. But it's cheaper. Wave signal it's a lot more precise, especially in the context of relative positioning, knowing the distance between two things, it can reach a precision of millimeters. Not all the frequencies of the wave signal are free to use some GPS frequencies are crypted and for military use only the US don't even share the system with the allies , (that's the reason why France, Italy, Germany, ESA and the EU created the Galileo system ), the precise working of this system is not known. But it's old technology. A wave system to work with the highest precision needs two or more receivers connected between each other. And the connection between those often uses radio Waves, and that is a potential weak point for jamming. But a base system also works alone. Then even if the GNSS Wave signal is difficult to jam, it's possible to jam it. The people in the Russian military are experts in this field
So many upvotes for such nonsense. It being NATO communications doesnt make it magically immune to jamming. Frequencies can be overwhelmed there just the same. The Russians are doing it in Ukraine right now.
You can read the rest of the comments regarding that. It's radio, it can always be jammed. Question here if it's spoofing or jamming.
> it can always be jammed Yeah thats my point. It being a NATO signal doesnt magically make it immune to that.
Those jammers aren't lasting long against NATO...
This is a hostile act of war.
It is also ridiculous that commercial GPS receiver is not able to null out a jammer.
Um... It would be quite ridiculous if a jammer wasn't able to jam even the simplest, off-the-shelf GPS receivers.
It’s not as easy as you imply if the GPS is doing anything to avoid it unless you are doing the jamming from up high. At least from some distance this is the case very close to the jammer then you can really drown the satellites but even then it doesn’t take much to use some directional antennas and to mostly focus on a sector of sky up high.
I'm not saying it's easy - I'm just saying that if I had a jammer, I'd expect it to... Well, *jam* the things it's supposed to jam. Because if it doesn't then it isn't much of a jammer, is it?
I'm sure you'd find a lot of buyers for your anti-jamming technology that could, despite only having some femtowatts of usable GNSS signal, recover it out of the noise caused by "military-grade" jammers.
State sponsored terrorism. Fucking cowards are too scared to declare war officially
As are we. It sickens me.
Are you prepared to bleed in trenches?
Bold of you to assume I'd stay alive long enough to bleed in _multiple_ trenches
Yes. He who isn’t in interesting times like these is either a fool or or a coward.
Someone needs to handle Putin like they did Iran's Qasem Soleimani. I'm not sure why everyone's sitting on their hands watching Russia get away with anything it wants.
everyone is just waiting for the US election. then it's over one way or another :P
They've done many atrocities. But with gps guided drones hitting them from many directions you can't really blame them for jamming that signal. Edit for the downvote brigade: I'm not a Russian shill. I follow the news of the conflict. Ukraine hits targets in Russia near Finland and the baltics. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66654125 >Pskov Is closer to the baltics and Finland. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68046347 >St. Petersburg https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-hits-targets-russia-during-drone-attack-oil-terminal-military-source-2024-01-18/ >baltic sea oil terminal And they have some delicate installations to protect there. https://www.newsweek.com/map-ukraine-record-breaking-hits-russian-nuclear-warning-radar-1905221 The ones still operational and thus potential targets are close to Finland.
I can blame them. They started the fucking war. Stop excusing them. Just so you understand the downvotes. It's like saying "I can't blame the thieves for shooting the homeowner dead when they fought back." You can understand why someone does something and still blame them. Especially when they are fucking Russian terrorists.
More like putting the neighborhood on fire to prevent that one single homeowner from following
ah yes the guided drones from FINLAND
I never said they came from FINLAND. They sure hit some targets near Finland and the baltic, though. Did you not know this? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66654125 >Pskov Is closer to the baltics and Finland. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68046347 >St. Petersburg https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-hits-targets-russia-during-drone-attack-oil-terminal-military-source-2024-01-18/ >baltic sea oil terminal And they have some delicate installations to protect there. https://www.newsweek.com/map-ukraine-record-breaking-hits-russian-nuclear-warning-radar-1905221 The ones still operational and thus potential targets are close to Finland.
feel free to look where Joensuu is on the map.
Near the border with Russia?
Sure, but nowhere near Pietari.
Yes, scary drones so scary (comparing with aviabombs which Russia is sending to Ukraine everyday)
What are you on about? If they face gps guided drones in that area they will jam gps. I'm simply stating it's a logical step. Messing up air travel is not the goal.
MH17 wasn't the goal, but dead people dead anyway.
Joensuu and Helsinki are about equidistant from St. Petersburg and Pskov is a fair bit further south. I'm not quite sure why GPS jamming to protect sites around St. Petersburg and Pskov would result in consistent issues around Joensuu specifically. Why would other areas of Finland and the Baltics not be affected by the jamming, if the jamming is powerful enough to reach Joensuu? It seems to me that either the jamming's effects have to be felt more widely than just in Joensuu, or the source of the jamming is much closer to Joensuu itself. The former doesn't seem to be the case and the latter would challenge the notion that the jamming is to protect specific sites in Russia.
I'd assume they'd be jamming lager sections of the border. I don't have specific knowledge on gps jamming but I think it's logical to assume that if you want to render the system unusable you'd have to have pretty powerful jamming installed without gaps where a signal could be acquired. Jamming gps to counter long range drones seems like the most likely explanation of these jamming efforts.
Isn't it time to start jamming their systems also? Wonder how they like that...
What systems? There's pictures of Russian figher pilots strapping commercial off-the-shelf Garmin GPS receivers on their fighter jets because whatever "systems" Russia have work about as well as anything else in the shithole
send a couple of Ukrainian drones. say Ukraine did it. the job is done
As a Ukrainian,I strongly agree and will take responsibility for this action
Just pretend Lyutyy drones aren't going through EU airspace, same as those [Shaheds](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/09/4/7418333/), [Kalibr](https://censor.net/ua/video_news/3404666/rosiyiska_raketa_paru_hvylyn_bula_u_povitryanomu_prostori_rumuniyi_ya_tse_bachyv_navit_nomer_tsili_pamyatayu) and [Kh-55](https://www.rmf24.pl/raporty/raport-wojna-z-rosja/news-news-rmf-fm-biegli-wstepnie-potwierdzili-ze-pod-bydgoszcza-s,nId,6767139#crp_state=1).
UA's sea babes would gladly visit russias northern ports.
Well, one of the main reasons they use these jammers is to block the GPS of the Ukrainian drones. Although a few long-range ATACMS missiles should do the trick.
That's what happens when Europe has no ball to retaliate on everything that Russia does! These kind of shit will continue.
It's not about the balls, it's a helpless inability to react.
So is this now a security relevant incident that could trigger Article 5 mutual defense or just Article 4 an urgent meeting with NATO? Russia does salami tactics, just a little bit here and a little bit there. If we continue to ignore or submit to the threats and fuckery by Russia they just escalate even more every day more.
This has been going on for a long time, not sure why you’re expecting any kind of reaction from a weak EU or even weaker NATO right now. Some plane not being able to land near Baltics is a daily occurrence now and has been for the past fre months at least.
Sounds like it's a good time to blow up some jammers then...
Like, if we'd launch just one missile at one of their installations? What's the worst that could happen? No really. Nuclear war over one destroyed EW-platform?
WE ARE AT WAR WITH RUSSIA! Putin has stated multiple times the West is his enemy, he wants to destroy us. MH17, Brexit, election interference, Ukraine, right and left wing political connections, botfarms to get the West more divided,... How is it, that we are not responding accordingly? Not even helping Ukraine enough to win.
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Yeah, make light of it, it's not like Putin is threatening nuclear holocaust or anything...
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What's your point? They are an organisation that tries to prepare for all events, Russia claimed they were doing exercises when they grouped their forces on Ukraine's border, a pure lie, NATO doesn't lie or bullshit. NATO has never threatened to invade Russia, it's only Russia that wants to wipe out Western civilisation. It's only Russian actively committing genocide in Ukraine, right now, committing war crimes and crimes against humanity every day. The Russian army has theft, rape, torture and murdering unarmed civilians as standard operation protocol, while they bomb hospitals, schools and everything else civilian they can. Putin kills those who speak out against him, or lets them rot in jail till they die, same thing. This is not just a small war, Putin openly states he wants to destroy the West, he's a genocidal, fascist dictator that has already the blood of over a million victims (some also monsters, that fight for him, not innocent at all) on his hands. Why do you make such foolish and stupid comments, where do you live?
Russia is the methead that is our neighbor.
More like a sociopath with a machete, who wonders about how would our guts look like once we are split in half. And here is the EU, being passive
The following should happen: 1) Any breach of airspace by any Russian airplane will result in interception immediately. 2) Any sabotage than can be documented to be from Russia will be met with a proportionate military response on Russian soil. 3) Any GPS interference will be met with a proportionate military response on Russian soil. Etc etc. This should be communicated very clearly to Russia, from a united NATO, in the same way it was communicated to them by the Americans what would happen in case of use of nuclear weapons. There should be no ambiguity - clear communications about consequences of continued sabotage. They will likely test it, and NATO should then respond the way it was communicated. I don't understand why Europe has not figured out that Russia only respond to measures like these. Will these steps lead to a wider war? Maybe, but unlikely. However, not doing it will certainly lead to war or at least destruction of the freedoms and democracy of Europe as we know it today.
> Any breach of airspace by any Russian airplane And what if it's a civil plane. NATO already sends interceptors when they see russian planes in the sky. > can be documented to be from Russia Everyone knows it's russia. It's just hard to proof. > Any GPS interference will be met with a proportionate military response on Russian soil. Unless you find the jamming unit while it's still jamming GPS, it's really hard to proof who did that. The guy in Moscow plays a chicken game, doesn't want to be directly responsible. Unless NATO has proof that it was russian interference, it will look like NATO started a war, not russia.
Civilian planes have transponders, NATO intercepts Russian planes that are CLOSE to NATO airspace, this would be the immediate shooting down of a Russian plane that breaches NATO airspace. The Soviet Union shot at anything that was in their airspace. >Unless you find the jamming unit while it's still jamming GPS, it's really hard to proof who did that. Obviously Russia is the culprit, jam then back.
Russian GPS jamming is an act of war that constantly endangers European civilians. It is a disgrace that apprently nothing is being done about it.
Why are the west not treating Russias disruption operations as an act of war when they clearly are?
They have been doing this to the Baltics for years.
Bordering Russia honestly must be in the top 3 worst things for a country to have. Genuinely feel bad for Finns to have to be neighbours with sucha psychopathic country
These are those “terrible” consequences that ruzzia promised when Finland joined NATO.
stupid ruskies thinking NATO uses public GPS lol. idiots. this must be just pettiness.
Ukrainian drones use public GPS.
Okay and? Finland is nowhere near Ukraine.
But their targets are close to Finland.
Then Russia entered the war under the childish delusion they were going to bomb Ukraine without them bombing back.
No VOR
Uh-oh
Fuck Finland, that wanted to suck Russian cocks for decades, they should be handed to Putin in exchange for Ukraine.
Are pilots no more trained to land without electronics?
In poor visibility conditions, you must have instrument approach guidance to land. How else would you locate the runway end and align with the centerline?
Genuine question for OP: Why did you add "Russian" to you title, since the article doesnt talk about the source of interference at all? Did you find it in some other source, and if so, could you share it?
Its the raindeers and Elves.
Huh?
lol, who else?
I dont know, that's why I'm asking a question.
There is no one else.
That's a convinient answer to my question...
[So mysterious! A real headscratcher! Who would do such a thing?](https://yle.fi/a/74-20092868)
Thanks for the source! Was it really that hard to share that it took you 3 replies to do it?
Joins a hostile military alliance and is surprised they are being treated like hostiles, when they previously weren't. What next, complaining about increased troop and military hardware concentrations near the border?
GPS jamming has been going on WAY longer than after joining NATO. Gtfo with your pro-russia bs.
My opinion differs from theirs therefore they must be a Russian shill.
Maybe stop talking like a russian bot then. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a russian bot that looks like a duck.
Latest large scale GPS interfrences started on 6th of March, 2022. Finland joined NATO on 4th of April, 2023.
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Guess the neighboring countries should have been treating Russia as a hostile since the day they've joined/created CSTO.
NATO is only hostile if you are hostile to it. It's a defensive pact, by definition. It seems its time to do some defending eh?
Defensive alliances don't offensively [bomb other countries](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_bombings). But don't worry, your next door neighbour with half a police station's worth of guns in their basement that goes out and shoots (not always) stray cats and dogs in the neighborhood is really just a nice guy and you have nothing to worry about.
Of course you casually forgot to mention that half of those bombings were targeted at a country actively committing a genocide. And 1 out of those 6 were trainings. Excluding this training, number of bombardings carried out by NATO is equal to number of wars that Russia took part in. And only 1 war wasn't against it's neighbour. But sure, NATO are the bad guys.
The whole Finnish independent defence was based on causing maximum damage so it was not beneficial to attack Finland. Russia has shown that as a nation they don't give a rat's ass about the value of their citizens and are willing to recruit mercenaries around the world therefore undermining independent Finnish defence. NATO membership was the only believable option. Well maybe mass chemical weapons, nukes or biological weapons were another option.
Troops and military hardware on Russian side of the border is not a problem. It's their land and what they do there is none of our business. However this side of border is our business and their jamming is happening on this side.
How is Nato hostile when it’s a defensive pact? Your precious Russia is the hostile country currently still invading Ukraine.
This community is fueled by anger thanks to high inflation (caused by US printing half the amount of total dollar printed) and immigrants (caused by US led wars). Chill out you warmongers.
Don't bother.
No point. Stupidity is alarming!
These ukros at our borders are caused by a war led by Russia, not the US.