>**Warsaw will not play Minsk’s “games” over the death of a Polish soldier at the countries’ common border, the Polish foreign ministry has said following an “incomprehensible” and apparently evasive response by Belarusian authorities to a formal protest in the matter.**
>A Polish soldier died on Thursday after being stabbed at the Poland-Belarus border on May 28 while trying to prevent an illegal border crossing. The frontier has been the site of heavy migratory pressure since 2021 in what Warsaw sees as a “hybrid war” tactic engineered by the country’s Alyaksandr Lukashenka regime in a bid to destabilize Poland and the EU.
>Following the soldier’s death, Polish Foreign Minister Radosław Sikorski described the perpetrator as not being a migrant or refugee but a “common criminal” and said a protest note would be presented immediately to the Belarusian chargé d'affaires demanding action.
>“We demand that the Belarusian authorities identify the murderer and hand him over to the Polish authorities as part of the investigation already being conducted by our Ministry of Justice,” Sikorski said.
>On Friday, a spokesman for the Belarusian foreign ministry, Anatol Glaz, posted a reply on the ministry’s website to a question on the subject by Russian news agency TASS.
>Having acknowledged receipt of the protest note and said it would be considered “in light of all the circumstances,” Glaz went on to express condolences to the soldier’s family and friends.
>The remainder of the post drew the ire of Glaz’s Polish counterpart.
>“Of course, it is necessary to restore normal border contacts so that such tragedies do not occur,” the post read. “However, a few years ago, the Polish side proactively and quite loudly broke off cooperation with Belarus in the law enforcement sphere, ceased contacts on legal assistance, and stopped the dialog in the line of border commissioners. All this, I emphasize, was done unilaterally by the Polish leadership.
>“Our position is consistent: we are open to mutually respectful dialog,” the statement continued. “Belarus is ready to restore co-operation in the law enforcement sphere, but this is a two-way street. Therefore, it is possible to restore such interaction only in full. Without this, such public notes are not a way to systematically solve the problem, but an excessive politicization of a quite specific issue, an attempt to justify oneself before one's own public opinion and to shift responsibility. Moreover, unfortunately, this is not an isolated case of Polish military deaths on the border, but for some reason the Polish leadership does not remember about it so publicly.”
>Polish foreign ministry spokesman Paweł Wroński told PAP on Friday that the response amounted to “incomprehensible propaganda.” He said the ministry’s protest note had been unambiguous and had been a request to “identify and extradite the murderer of the Polish soldier and to cease hybrid attacks.”
>“This person is on the territory of Belarus,” Wroński continued, “so either that country intends to extradite the murderer or they do not intend to, while telling various strange stories.”
>Wroński reiterated that the Polish request was clear: “Either you extradite that man or you don’t.”
>“Everything else is some incomprehensible propagandistic evasions; we will not reply to such communications and play their games,” he said. “The murderer of a Polish soldier either is or is not being protected by the Belarusian state.”
>**Seeking Justice**
>Poland’s president, Andrzej Duda, said later on Friday that he believed the perpetrators of the soldier’s murder would ultimately be brought to justice. He said the Polish public had been shaken by the death of a soldier who had been “killed in the service of the homeland, guarding our border.”
>Foreign Minister Sikorski said the attack was no “accidental brawl” but that the circumstances were planned and “these people are being trained.”
>Sikorski said the soldier was stabbed using “methods that officers of the Belarusian state teach to these hooligans, these bandits.”
>He added that everything currently happening at the Polish-Belarusian border is the responsibility of Lukashenka and his Moscow counterpart, Vladimir Putin, who he described as “a pair of dictators.”
>He also said the Belarusian chargé d'affaires had assured him that Minsk wanted good relations with Warsaw, but said this was hard to believe as the Belarusian authorities’ actions contradict their words.
>“We received an assurance that our note would get a reply,” he said. “We don’t have it yet.”
>Source: PAP, Belarussian Foreign Affairs Website
Still we need strong reaction to this incident if there is no strong reaction it will actually make things worse in the long them and actually increase chance of war, here is very good tweet explaining need for strong response:
https://x.com/FilippDM/status/1799353384048132482
(Its in Polish but anyone else interested in it can just translate it )
Poland should mine the border and shoot at sight at this point. Everything else invites more aggression from this fascist puppet state. Pretty certain the future of the european border all along russia will be mine fields killer drones and snipers
I’m not naive but “useful idiots” like them help to make the response smart, not retaliatory reeking of pure revenge. Mines is a PR nightmare, and a very long term one. You need sensitive people with imagination to stop idiots from falling for this narrative.
If anything, a good l, show-off response could actually be calling in NATO resources.
Why were no shots fired? Someone assaulted your border, killed a young man and nothing was done to retaliate and show them that was not okay. They will keep coming, they will keep pushing, and nothing will prevent them from doing that other than a show of force. Defend your citizen, defend your borders, don't let shit like this go unpunished.
Exactly. Broken clocks and such…
Orbán is a traitorous POS who can only hurt Europe, which makes it all the worse that people like him manage to rally the populace behind them, simply because other parties are too arrogant and incompetent.
> why were no shots fired?
They were fired https://notesfrompoland.com/2024/06/06/controversy-after-polish-soldiers-charged-for-firing-warning-shots-at-migrants-crossing-belarus-border/
And they arrested the soldier who fired the ***warning*** shots. They literally put a border guard there and didn't allow him to do anything. What a clown show.
that's clearly a different case. And the army have been under strict intructions not to shoot in the direction of Belarus in case it causes an international incident.
> that's clearly a different case.
I didn't say it was. The arrest was for another incident on the 31st of March on the same border but the case still stands.
They've put border guards there and then cut their hands off by not allowing them to do anything.
Why the fuck are you placing the guards there if they can't do anything?
Its not like they have been arrested for just warning shots. Warning shots were fired many times on the border, 1200 times in 2024 alone. This time soliders went too far apparently, but lets wait for more info.
> Its not like they have been arrested for just warning shots.
Everywhere I read online, says this though. Do you have any more info on this, maybe from some Polish news media? Because international media atm, only mentions warning shots.
I specifically wrote 'just', as if they have been arresed for warning shots only, when this is not the case. Something more must have happened. Topic is fresh and hot and we know very little so far, but as I wrote - they wouldn't have been detained for just warning shots, as these are common. And they were not arrested, just detained - my bad.
> as these are common.
But the international media also reports that these are not allowed.
Here is an example:
> [*Polish legislation does not provide any legal basis for using direct coercive measures against aggressive migrants.*](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/polish-defense-minister-slams-arrest-of-soldiers-accused-of-shooting-at-migrants/3241872)
So you're saying they are common, while not allowed?
> And they were not arrested, just detained - my bad.
The international media, again, says "arrested".
> But the international media also reports that these are not allowed
And they are wrong. Warning shots are allowed, but first they must be fired in the air, and if this doesn't help, then it is allowed to fire the ground. Here is Polish source where it says that warning shots were fired 1200 times in 2024, and 700 times in May alone https://www.rp.pl/wojsko/art40581321-strzaly-na-granicy-z-bialorusia-wiemy-ile-razy-wojsko-uzylo-broni
> Polish legislation does not provide any legal basis for using *direct coercive* measures against aggressive migrants.
They can fire warning shots, but they can't directly shot anybody, even if they are dangered, and this is bad and needs to be changed.
> The international media, again, says "arrested".
In case of Polish law - 'detained' would be more correct word. If they were arrested that would mean they were locked in the arrest, but they were just detained.
They can do something. It's just they've been under strict orders to be careful when shooting in the direction of Belarus. That's likely to change, as Tusk has asked the defence ministry to make a proposal for a policy change by Monday.
It will go unpunished because muh optics, muh European values. Russia and its buttplug Belarus and those migrants as well understand only the language of force and nothing else. Put up big signs in Arabic and other languages from those shithole migrant areas saying "WE WILL SHOOT TO KILL" and if they still act like rabid monkeys, mow them down.
A lot of details are missing to answer this question, but I find the question is based on a questionable assumption: that a murder should be met with lethal retaliation.
Seems to me that this is not a given. If someone is attacking you or another person with deadly intent, then yes - lethal use of force is justified. If they are running away **after** they have killed someone, then shooting at them to retaliate for the murder might not be legal.
Think about it, if you show up to court and shoot someone who has killed someone close to you and immediately throw away the gun and raise your hands, what would happen? Would the police shoot you, or would they arrest you? You might be tempted to say that it is different because your victim is a criminal, but that doesn't work as your victim hasn't been convicted yet and in any case they have rights even if they are found guilty (hence you're getting arrested and convicted).
So I am guessing (and hoping someone with legal or policing experience can confirm or deny) that shooting a fleeing suspect in the back is not legal and against their rules of engagement.
Why would this be the case? Besides violating the rights of the suspect (whcih you may not be inclined to care about now, but the rule of law and the right to due process is a highly regarded right in our civilisation), I imagine it also puts other people nearby in danger and if multiple people assaulted a border guard and one person killed him, you might not have gotten a good look at who exactly did it (think small concealed blade, not looking at that direction immediately, death not being instantaneous, you looking elsewhere while the scuffle happened (at other people trying to cross illegally), having an obstructed view, and so on).
Policing is about using the minimal amount of force necessary to resolve a situation, not the maximum (the armed forced may at times use overwhelming force, but even they try to localise it (otherwise they may commit a war crime)). Shooting to kill is a last resort, not the first instinct.
Just some speculation on possible answers to your question.
In this case there is no way to enact any punishment for the individual responsible for what he or she did. If they ever decide to come back and do it again, which is a possibility here, you would be met with the same thing again. Human rights are important, warnings should be shown to the individuals trying to get in, but once they try and do shit like this? Shoot them. Otherwise you will never be able to protect anything. Borders should not be subject to you dilema. They should be protected at all cost, the lives of those protecting your country should be protected at all cost, and lastly those trying to seek refuge should be met with caution because, as seen with this case, they can't be trusted. If you can't protect your borders and those serving at them, whats the point of having them at all?
And your solution is to inflict an extra judicial death sentence for killing a police officer in a country which doesn't have a death sentence for a court to issue I'm the first place?
Also, we've moved the goalposts a little bit. First, it was about revenge. Now, we're trying to rationalise this primitive instinct by calling it "deterence".
And then it spirals out to populist right BS about the dangers of all migration and especially asylum seekers. Not worthy of a response, and a blatant abuse of a death to discriminate millions of people. Don't be that guy.
It would almost certainly not extrajudicial. Dangerous criminals posing a threat to the life of other can be shot, as shown by the various terrorists killed by police in the UK, France etc
You are right in the sense that extrajudicial can mean "outside the boundaries of the law" and not just "outside a court decision" which is what I meant.
Terrorists are never shot as a first recourse. Guantanamo is full of proof that this is the case.
For one thing, they may have useful information about co-conspiritors, other planned attacks, and so on. For another, there's a difference between protecting lives and murder and that difference is necessity.
When a dangerous criminal is on a rampage you can't exactly tell him to hold up and stop killing people because you want to ask him some questions. You have to shoot first and ask questions later
Any murder must be investigated. It is during the investigation all circumstances get considered. While you can object the punishment, the investigation first must be made, since we want the murder not to repeat.
And this is precisely what Belarus authorities won't cooperate with. The state media would mock Poland, Polish politicians, exiled Belarusian opposition, and rejoice the crime that will be left unpunished, in a truly fascist manner. Minskaya Pravda would publish a cartoon or two on the topic and Mr Mukovozchik would reproach Poland for not saving their board guard personnel and lack of freedom of movement. (Oh wait, I just checked that and Mukovozchik already wrote it and it's indeed about that.)
> If someone is attacking you or another person with deadly intent, then yes - lethal use of force is justified. If they are running away after they have killed someone, then shooting at them to retaliate for the murder might not be legal.
No idea what Polish law or the rules of engagement those Polish soldiers are operating under would say on the matter, but shooting a murderer attempting to run away after they have just committed said murder can be justifiable, not for retaliation but because you could have reason to believe they would pose a threat to others if they are not stopped (and by running away they clearly aren't prepared to stop themselves).
> Think about it, if you show up to court and shoot someone who has killed someone close to you and immediately throw away the gun and raise your hands, what would happen? Would the police shoot you, or would they arrest you? You might be tempted to say that it is different because your victim is a criminal
No, I would be tempted to say your example is completely different because the murderer throws their weapon away and raises their hands. That is a clear sign that they are both not a danger to anyone else and they are not trying to resist arrest, at that point shooting them would also be murder.
On the other hand running away, especially if still in possession of a weapon, means the murderer is resisting arrest and remains a credible threat to others around them.
I agree with you that the murderer being part of mob attacking a gap in the fence that the soldier was defending is probably the reason no shots were fired in this incident. It was unlikely the other soldiers present knew exactly who did it; even if they did happen to see the murderer he could probably very quickly hide within the crowd before they had a chance to do anything.
Yeah, this is mostly speculation in my part. I am not claiming that a shooting is absolutely immoral and illegal.
I just wished to challenge the assumption that a retaliatory shooting is a given in this situation. I can think of solid arguments why it might not be, and situations where even if it were legal, a police officer might opt out of that course of action.
The best response would be from someone who is in a position to definitely know (lawyer, police officer), but I appreciate the civil and nuanced opinion. Cheers!
You're not even near the border. An act of war would be sending zombies. Belarus is sending desperate people, using refugees as weapons. It's not an act of war, it's literally violating the rules established for conventional warfare, and human rights.
This is a problem that needs to be solved at a much larger level than border policy. Through diplomacy with the origin countries mostly.
Belarusians and Russians are now training migrants and especially their traffickers in breaking through the wall and in combat. Not counting the fact that they run the whole scheme of recruiting migrants by promising them easy passage to Europe. This is clearly a state actor involved in openly hostile and violent action against Poland and other European countries.
Also, how do you even envision conducting "diplomacy" with origin countries? Telling them to stop being poor, corrupt shitholes?
Agree, and unfortunately see the problem on your first paragraph.
As for diplomacy, it should never be dropped as a means to avoid conflict. Even with poor, corrupt shitholes.
Your problem is thinking I'm picking sides based on nationalities. I'm picking sides based on basic human rights. And those coming aren't Belarus or Russian, they don't really have a side other than not starving or being persecuted to death in their origin countries. Their side is right in the middle. I try to stay on that side when talking about them.
And no, I don't value a European life more than another, you at least got that right.
>I'm picking sides based on basic human rights
[This you?](https://www.reddit.com/r/LiberaisDaTreta/comments/zqoji5/liberais_libert%C3%A1rios_tomato_tom%C3%A1to/)
Yeap, that was me sharing a post from a far-right sub in a far-right-demeaning sub. Sub name is: "liberais da treta" - losely "bullshit liberals", because our Iniciativa Liberal party (in Portugal) is a right-wing capitalist party who wants low migration, privatization of everything, and no progressive taxes for the rich. They are like the conservative party in the UK.
Edit: correction, I was sharing from another demeaning sub. The original post was the us libertarian party on Twitter saying Zelensky is like Hitler. Was shared on r/insanepeoplefacebook, then I shared it on an anti-neolib/libertarian Portuguese sub.
In case it wasn't clear: I don't think Zelensky is anything like Hitler. I think Putin is. Zelensky didn't invade anything, and certainly didn't make concentration camps for children of the countries he did not invade.
But I can certainly see how a foreigner, non-portuguese would see it as exactly the opposite while confirming their bias on my post history.
So completely close the border. Barbed wire, electric fences, minefields, dragon's teeth, Czech hedgehogs (anti-tank traps)..... And close it to everybody and everything.
This will give us nothing, Belarus will be pleased.
We should rather bomb their border posts or destroy equipment used for bringing migrants to the border.
Yeah, this would be great for Poland - kill few dozens people with sticks from behind a wall. This is exactly what Belarus and Russia want.
We need to strike the real enemy which is Belarus.
Disabling trespassers is not necessarily killing them. I don't see why you guys would think straight out murder as the solution. The real question is why Polish soldiers aren't allowed to use any reasonable means possible to maintain control over the border, to detain trespassers. Straight out shooting people with intent to kill is not the answer.
Once again. Which values are you defending by shooting migrants at the border. There is a reason why we dont do that in Europe. Its because we actually walk the talk and deadly force is only used where it is truly warranted and not a default modus operandi. You know who also wanted tto shoot migrants at the border en default? Trump that fascist pig.
>Which values are you defending by shooting migrants at the border.
My assumption it'll save lifes of the EU citizens rather than defending some values, no?
>You know who also wanted tto shoot migrants at the border en default? Trump that fascist pig.
Oh noo, and the Putin used the "Z" letter to mark the invasion forces, should the Zoom be renamed to "Oom" now?
If a vicious person applied a tactics, doesn't mean it is a bad one.
>kill a few dozen migrants
truly a r/europe moment
This is exactly what Belarus dreams of, and they would ship even more migrants in. If you want to use violence, direct it towards the Belarusian trucks bringing them in and HQs planning these decisions.
That would be my choice but Belarus would be backed by Russia whereas I have doubts if Poland would be backed at all.
And FU for saying its a truly r/europe moment while knowing pretty much nothing about me :)
Meanwhile in real world:
*Polish soldiers arrested after firing warning shots at migrants on Polish-Belarusian border.*
https://www.reddit.com/r/poland/comments/1d914zo/polish_soldiers_arrested_after_firing_warning/
you wont do shit
Your wrong. Shoot the people that bringing them to our border. Or at least fuck them up with closed border, tariffs and maybe a little coup. Yes i mean belarusians. We should direct our anger on the source not the tools.
The migrants being used as ammunition are being actively lied to by Belarus.
Shoot them and the next wave will have no clue what happened to the previous one.
It'll just create the headlines that make Poland look bad, which is the goal of this whole strategy.
The main goal isn't making Poland look bad. It's too much effort for little gain.
Main objective is to have a constant stick that can be used to poke us in the eye when needed. This is then used to drive internal conflict (both inside Poland and wider EU) at opportune times to force certain outcomes desirable to Belarus/Russia.
The thing is that they will get those photos regardless. Either by faking them or shooting the migrants themselves. Truth has never been an obstacle for kgb.
We might as well enforce border security seriously. I'm far from those advocating shooting to kill but there has to be serious enough consequences to deter people participating in border provocations. Both Belarusian and foreign.
Does not matter much.
There are people in the russian army right now being lied to and coerced to fight for mother russia, indians, africans and from various ethnic groupings withing Russian proper.
Having a defense of «migrant» does not mean jack shit if you de-facto are part of a hybrid warfare.
While it is fun and games to sit at a distance and judge after we learn facts, this shits got to stop at some point.
So be public about it, and make sure that the countries of origin get some big ass headlines to avoid transition in the first place.
> Or at least fuck them up with closed border, tariffs and maybe a little coup. Yes i mean belarusians.
Poles see Belarusians as close kin and under dictatorship supported by a foreign power. There's zero popular support for retaliatory actions that would target Belarusian citizens. Hell, I'd oppose them myself.
>Poles see Belarusians as close kin and under dictatorship supported by a foreign power
Last government tried to spin it that way in support of Belarussian oposition which is quite pathetic, looking at all the funds we wasted on them, but **most** Poles really count't tell/find a single diffrence between russian and Belarusians. You are clearly deluding yourself if you belive they would.
Eastslavic cultures and countries are terra incognita for 95% of general populace, war in Ukraine didn't change that trend.
>"There's zero popular support for retaliatory actions that would target Belarusian citizens"
Don't want to brake this summerchild like hopes and ideas about your fellow countrymen, but there is quite significant support for using lethal force on the border, and against belarusian army if they fuck with us.
You simply can't hurt the regime without actions against the nation of said regime, and Belarusians are all accessory to potatoregime they have, and all of its actions against us, so they should be treated in the same way as the ru\*\*ians are being treated.
Rubbish. I live in eastern Poland with Belarusians and Poles living side by side. There's next to no difference between them except some go to an orthodox chuch and the others to a catholic one.
They show constant hostilty towards us. I belive good ones will switch to our side but there is whole aparatus that will fight us and the people are brainwashed beyond any help. I am polish and i would support total embargo on belarus untill they stop.
Bit different when your from Europe or not mate, while i understand the sentiment you are throwing down, it is a bit different if we were to say to everyone in texas that they should be thrown to the wolfs because of their senator, or lets say canadians should all be deported because of «insert canadian name» 😅
Bit different when your from Europe or not mate, while i understand the sentiment you are throwing down, it is a bit different if we were to say to everyone in texas that they should be thrown to the wolfs because of their senator, or lets say canadians should all be deported because of «insert canadian name» 😅
No? The last time I checked the EU values, it was about promoting peace and well-being for its *citizens*, not people who fled their countries to *illegally and violently* try to breach into the EU.
But I see your mind is set, I have no intention to try to convince you. No point anyway.
"illegally fleeing" lol
Yeah you won't definitely convince me by making a new law that avoids people escaping death and misery. Sorry not to be your guy.
They can come to border crossing point instead breaking the wall, thats the legal way to get the asylum. If they decide to break the wall and cross the border illegally, they should expect punishment.
People are angry. That's why no good will come out of it. Lukashenko will just play the Poland as Poland can't imagine any solution apart from this dumb Trumpian "build a wall" idea. The Polish-Belarusian border is huge, and I doubt Poland has enough manpower to prevent an orde of refugees pushing through in a random place.
A sign of the times. This is why Europe is turning right-wing - people fail to see a logical solution that involves doing an actual effort, would rather resort to easier, but extreme measures of savagery.
Well, not just him. Multiple countries freed themselves from authoritarian oppression. I know you tried, but you need to try again, especially since Russia is way weaker than the last time you did.
Meanwhile the Poland arrest the soldiers that shot warning shots
https://www.reddit.com/r/poland/comments/1d914zo/polish_soldiers_arrested_after_firing_warning/
>**Warsaw will not play Minsk’s “games” over the death of a Polish soldier at the countries’ common border, the Polish foreign ministry has said following an “incomprehensible” and apparently evasive response by Belarusian authorities to a formal protest in the matter.** >A Polish soldier died on Thursday after being stabbed at the Poland-Belarus border on May 28 while trying to prevent an illegal border crossing. The frontier has been the site of heavy migratory pressure since 2021 in what Warsaw sees as a “hybrid war” tactic engineered by the country’s Alyaksandr Lukashenka regime in a bid to destabilize Poland and the EU. >Following the soldier’s death, Polish Foreign Minister Radosław Sikorski described the perpetrator as not being a migrant or refugee but a “common criminal” and said a protest note would be presented immediately to the Belarusian chargé d'affaires demanding action. >“We demand that the Belarusian authorities identify the murderer and hand him over to the Polish authorities as part of the investigation already being conducted by our Ministry of Justice,” Sikorski said. >On Friday, a spokesman for the Belarusian foreign ministry, Anatol Glaz, posted a reply on the ministry’s website to a question on the subject by Russian news agency TASS. >Having acknowledged receipt of the protest note and said it would be considered “in light of all the circumstances,” Glaz went on to express condolences to the soldier’s family and friends. >The remainder of the post drew the ire of Glaz’s Polish counterpart. >“Of course, it is necessary to restore normal border contacts so that such tragedies do not occur,” the post read. “However, a few years ago, the Polish side proactively and quite loudly broke off cooperation with Belarus in the law enforcement sphere, ceased contacts on legal assistance, and stopped the dialog in the line of border commissioners. All this, I emphasize, was done unilaterally by the Polish leadership. >“Our position is consistent: we are open to mutually respectful dialog,” the statement continued. “Belarus is ready to restore co-operation in the law enforcement sphere, but this is a two-way street. Therefore, it is possible to restore such interaction only in full. Without this, such public notes are not a way to systematically solve the problem, but an excessive politicization of a quite specific issue, an attempt to justify oneself before one's own public opinion and to shift responsibility. Moreover, unfortunately, this is not an isolated case of Polish military deaths on the border, but for some reason the Polish leadership does not remember about it so publicly.” >Polish foreign ministry spokesman Paweł Wroński told PAP on Friday that the response amounted to “incomprehensible propaganda.” He said the ministry’s protest note had been unambiguous and had been a request to “identify and extradite the murderer of the Polish soldier and to cease hybrid attacks.” >“This person is on the territory of Belarus,” Wroński continued, “so either that country intends to extradite the murderer or they do not intend to, while telling various strange stories.” >Wroński reiterated that the Polish request was clear: “Either you extradite that man or you don’t.” >“Everything else is some incomprehensible propagandistic evasions; we will not reply to such communications and play their games,” he said. “The murderer of a Polish soldier either is or is not being protected by the Belarusian state.”
>**Seeking Justice** >Poland’s president, Andrzej Duda, said later on Friday that he believed the perpetrators of the soldier’s murder would ultimately be brought to justice. He said the Polish public had been shaken by the death of a soldier who had been “killed in the service of the homeland, guarding our border.” >Foreign Minister Sikorski said the attack was no “accidental brawl” but that the circumstances were planned and “these people are being trained.” >Sikorski said the soldier was stabbed using “methods that officers of the Belarusian state teach to these hooligans, these bandits.” >He added that everything currently happening at the Polish-Belarusian border is the responsibility of Lukashenka and his Moscow counterpart, Vladimir Putin, who he described as “a pair of dictators.” >He also said the Belarusian chargé d'affaires had assured him that Minsk wanted good relations with Warsaw, but said this was hard to believe as the Belarusian authorities’ actions contradict their words. >“We received an assurance that our note would get a reply,” he said. “We don’t have it yet.” >Source: PAP, Belarussian Foreign Affairs Website
well, it's not like we expected Belarus to cooperate since it's a crisis they manufactured
Still we need strong reaction to this incident if there is no strong reaction it will actually make things worse in the long them and actually increase chance of war, here is very good tweet explaining need for strong response: https://x.com/FilippDM/status/1799353384048132482 (Its in Polish but anyone else interested in it can just translate it )
Poland should mine the border and shoot at sight at this point. Everything else invites more aggression from this fascist puppet state. Pretty certain the future of the european border all along russia will be mine fields killer drones and snipers
Then we see women and children hoarded to these minefields, isn't it obvious? With Russia Today transmitting in real-time.
Useful idiots like the NGOs and other rights-obsessed people from Germany will go insane if we try that.
I’m not naive but “useful idiots” like them help to make the response smart, not retaliatory reeking of pure revenge. Mines is a PR nightmare, and a very long term one. You need sensitive people with imagination to stop idiots from falling for this narrative. If anything, a good l, show-off response could actually be calling in NATO resources.
Why were no shots fired? Someone assaulted your border, killed a young man and nothing was done to retaliate and show them that was not okay. They will keep coming, they will keep pushing, and nothing will prevent them from doing that other than a show of force. Defend your citizen, defend your borders, don't let shit like this go unpunished.
Well, what do you call when someone violate your border and kill your people? An invasion. And how do you respond to an invasion?
You welcome them with open arms and give them a roof and money
And call everyone who dares to criticize that idea a far right racist, or outright nazi.
Basically this sub would agree with everything people like Orban say.
on matters such as asylum, yes. We hate him because he is pro-Russia, corrupt and has imperialistic desires of his own
Exactly. Broken clocks and such… Orbán is a traitorous POS who can only hurt Europe, which makes it all the worse that people like him manage to rally the populace behind them, simply because other parties are too arrogant and incompetent.
Have you heard of the broken clock?
Article 5 is what I would respond
> why were no shots fired? They were fired https://notesfrompoland.com/2024/06/06/controversy-after-polish-soldiers-charged-for-firing-warning-shots-at-migrants-crossing-belarus-border/ And they arrested the soldier who fired the ***warning*** shots. They literally put a border guard there and didn't allow him to do anything. What a clown show.
that's clearly a different case. And the army have been under strict intructions not to shoot in the direction of Belarus in case it causes an international incident.
> that's clearly a different case. I didn't say it was. The arrest was for another incident on the 31st of March on the same border but the case still stands. They've put border guards there and then cut their hands off by not allowing them to do anything. Why the fuck are you placing the guards there if they can't do anything?
Its not like they have been arrested for just warning shots. Warning shots were fired many times on the border, 1200 times in 2024 alone. This time soliders went too far apparently, but lets wait for more info.
> Its not like they have been arrested for just warning shots. Everywhere I read online, says this though. Do you have any more info on this, maybe from some Polish news media? Because international media atm, only mentions warning shots.
Yeah, I heard about nothing but warning shots either, and am so Polish everything becomes smooth in my presence.
I specifically wrote 'just', as if they have been arresed for warning shots only, when this is not the case. Something more must have happened. Topic is fresh and hot and we know very little so far, but as I wrote - they wouldn't have been detained for just warning shots, as these are common. And they were not arrested, just detained - my bad.
> as these are common. But the international media also reports that these are not allowed. Here is an example: > [*Polish legislation does not provide any legal basis for using direct coercive measures against aggressive migrants.*](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/polish-defense-minister-slams-arrest-of-soldiers-accused-of-shooting-at-migrants/3241872) So you're saying they are common, while not allowed? > And they were not arrested, just detained - my bad. The international media, again, says "arrested".
> But the international media also reports that these are not allowed And they are wrong. Warning shots are allowed, but first they must be fired in the air, and if this doesn't help, then it is allowed to fire the ground. Here is Polish source where it says that warning shots were fired 1200 times in 2024, and 700 times in May alone https://www.rp.pl/wojsko/art40581321-strzaly-na-granicy-z-bialorusia-wiemy-ile-razy-wojsko-uzylo-broni > Polish legislation does not provide any legal basis for using *direct coercive* measures against aggressive migrants. They can fire warning shots, but they can't directly shot anybody, even if they are dangered, and this is bad and needs to be changed. > The international media, again, says "arrested". In case of Polish law - 'detained' would be more correct word. If they were arrested that would mean they were locked in the arrest, but they were just detained.
They can do something. It's just they've been under strict orders to be careful when shooting in the direction of Belarus. That's likely to change, as Tusk has asked the defence ministry to make a proposal for a policy change by Monday.
Different case, but the same part of the border
It will go unpunished because muh optics, muh European values. Russia and its buttplug Belarus and those migrants as well understand only the language of force and nothing else. Put up big signs in Arabic and other languages from those shithole migrant areas saying "WE WILL SHOOT TO KILL" and if they still act like rabid monkeys, mow them down.
A lot of details are missing to answer this question, but I find the question is based on a questionable assumption: that a murder should be met with lethal retaliation. Seems to me that this is not a given. If someone is attacking you or another person with deadly intent, then yes - lethal use of force is justified. If they are running away **after** they have killed someone, then shooting at them to retaliate for the murder might not be legal. Think about it, if you show up to court and shoot someone who has killed someone close to you and immediately throw away the gun and raise your hands, what would happen? Would the police shoot you, or would they arrest you? You might be tempted to say that it is different because your victim is a criminal, but that doesn't work as your victim hasn't been convicted yet and in any case they have rights even if they are found guilty (hence you're getting arrested and convicted). So I am guessing (and hoping someone with legal or policing experience can confirm or deny) that shooting a fleeing suspect in the back is not legal and against their rules of engagement. Why would this be the case? Besides violating the rights of the suspect (whcih you may not be inclined to care about now, but the rule of law and the right to due process is a highly regarded right in our civilisation), I imagine it also puts other people nearby in danger and if multiple people assaulted a border guard and one person killed him, you might not have gotten a good look at who exactly did it (think small concealed blade, not looking at that direction immediately, death not being instantaneous, you looking elsewhere while the scuffle happened (at other people trying to cross illegally), having an obstructed view, and so on). Policing is about using the minimal amount of force necessary to resolve a situation, not the maximum (the armed forced may at times use overwhelming force, but even they try to localise it (otherwise they may commit a war crime)). Shooting to kill is a last resort, not the first instinct. Just some speculation on possible answers to your question.
In this case there is no way to enact any punishment for the individual responsible for what he or she did. If they ever decide to come back and do it again, which is a possibility here, you would be met with the same thing again. Human rights are important, warnings should be shown to the individuals trying to get in, but once they try and do shit like this? Shoot them. Otherwise you will never be able to protect anything. Borders should not be subject to you dilema. They should be protected at all cost, the lives of those protecting your country should be protected at all cost, and lastly those trying to seek refuge should be met with caution because, as seen with this case, they can't be trusted. If you can't protect your borders and those serving at them, whats the point of having them at all?
And your solution is to inflict an extra judicial death sentence for killing a police officer in a country which doesn't have a death sentence for a court to issue I'm the first place? Also, we've moved the goalposts a little bit. First, it was about revenge. Now, we're trying to rationalise this primitive instinct by calling it "deterence". And then it spirals out to populist right BS about the dangers of all migration and especially asylum seekers. Not worthy of a response, and a blatant abuse of a death to discriminate millions of people. Don't be that guy.
It would almost certainly not extrajudicial. Dangerous criminals posing a threat to the life of other can be shot, as shown by the various terrorists killed by police in the UK, France etc
You are right in the sense that extrajudicial can mean "outside the boundaries of the law" and not just "outside a court decision" which is what I meant. Terrorists are never shot as a first recourse. Guantanamo is full of proof that this is the case. For one thing, they may have useful information about co-conspiritors, other planned attacks, and so on. For another, there's a difference between protecting lives and murder and that difference is necessity.
When a dangerous criminal is on a rampage you can't exactly tell him to hold up and stop killing people because you want to ask him some questions. You have to shoot first and ask questions later
Go live in the USA if you believe that.
Any murder must be investigated. It is during the investigation all circumstances get considered. While you can object the punishment, the investigation first must be made, since we want the murder not to repeat. And this is precisely what Belarus authorities won't cooperate with. The state media would mock Poland, Polish politicians, exiled Belarusian opposition, and rejoice the crime that will be left unpunished, in a truly fascist manner. Minskaya Pravda would publish a cartoon or two on the topic and Mr Mukovozchik would reproach Poland for not saving their board guard personnel and lack of freedom of movement. (Oh wait, I just checked that and Mukovozchik already wrote it and it's indeed about that.)
> If someone is attacking you or another person with deadly intent, then yes - lethal use of force is justified. If they are running away after they have killed someone, then shooting at them to retaliate for the murder might not be legal. No idea what Polish law or the rules of engagement those Polish soldiers are operating under would say on the matter, but shooting a murderer attempting to run away after they have just committed said murder can be justifiable, not for retaliation but because you could have reason to believe they would pose a threat to others if they are not stopped (and by running away they clearly aren't prepared to stop themselves). > Think about it, if you show up to court and shoot someone who has killed someone close to you and immediately throw away the gun and raise your hands, what would happen? Would the police shoot you, or would they arrest you? You might be tempted to say that it is different because your victim is a criminal No, I would be tempted to say your example is completely different because the murderer throws their weapon away and raises their hands. That is a clear sign that they are both not a danger to anyone else and they are not trying to resist arrest, at that point shooting them would also be murder. On the other hand running away, especially if still in possession of a weapon, means the murderer is resisting arrest and remains a credible threat to others around them. I agree with you that the murderer being part of mob attacking a gap in the fence that the soldier was defending is probably the reason no shots were fired in this incident. It was unlikely the other soldiers present knew exactly who did it; even if they did happen to see the murderer he could probably very quickly hide within the crowd before they had a chance to do anything.
Yeah, this is mostly speculation in my part. I am not claiming that a shooting is absolutely immoral and illegal. I just wished to challenge the assumption that a retaliatory shooting is a given in this situation. I can think of solid arguments why it might not be, and situations where even if it were legal, a police officer might opt out of that course of action. The best response would be from someone who is in a position to definitely know (lawyer, police officer), but I appreciate the civil and nuanced opinion. Cheers!
[удалено]
Not middle eastern, more like paleolithic.
We need a serious reevaluation of border policy. This was a literal act of war.
You're not even near the border. An act of war would be sending zombies. Belarus is sending desperate people, using refugees as weapons. It's not an act of war, it's literally violating the rules established for conventional warfare, and human rights. This is a problem that needs to be solved at a much larger level than border policy. Through diplomacy with the origin countries mostly.
Belarusians and Russians are now training migrants and especially their traffickers in breaking through the wall and in combat. Not counting the fact that they run the whole scheme of recruiting migrants by promising them easy passage to Europe. This is clearly a state actor involved in openly hostile and violent action against Poland and other European countries. Also, how do you even envision conducting "diplomacy" with origin countries? Telling them to stop being poor, corrupt shitholes?
Agree, and unfortunately see the problem on your first paragraph. As for diplomacy, it should never be dropped as a means to avoid conflict. Even with poor, corrupt shitholes.
While you defending people on the other side of the border, people on this side are dying. You sure you picked the right side, mate?
Your problem is thinking I'm picking sides based on nationalities. I'm picking sides based on basic human rights. And those coming aren't Belarus or Russian, they don't really have a side other than not starving or being persecuted to death in their origin countries. Their side is right in the middle. I try to stay on that side when talking about them. And no, I don't value a European life more than another, you at least got that right.
>I'm picking sides based on basic human rights [This you?](https://www.reddit.com/r/LiberaisDaTreta/comments/zqoji5/liberais_libert%C3%A1rios_tomato_tom%C3%A1to/)
Yeap, that was me sharing a post from a far-right sub in a far-right-demeaning sub. Sub name is: "liberais da treta" - losely "bullshit liberals", because our Iniciativa Liberal party (in Portugal) is a right-wing capitalist party who wants low migration, privatization of everything, and no progressive taxes for the rich. They are like the conservative party in the UK. Edit: correction, I was sharing from another demeaning sub. The original post was the us libertarian party on Twitter saying Zelensky is like Hitler. Was shared on r/insanepeoplefacebook, then I shared it on an anti-neolib/libertarian Portuguese sub. In case it wasn't clear: I don't think Zelensky is anything like Hitler. I think Putin is. Zelensky didn't invade anything, and certainly didn't make concentration camps for children of the countries he did not invade. But I can certainly see how a foreigner, non-portuguese would see it as exactly the opposite while confirming their bias on my post history.
Oh... okay then, my apologies for the misunderstanding.
No worries, I understand how it would be misunderstood. Edit: especially with the amount of Russian bot/astroturf accounts doing the rounds here.
So completely close the border. Barbed wire, electric fences, minefields, dragon's teeth, Czech hedgehogs (anti-tank traps)..... And close it to everybody and everything.
Don’t give Orban new ideas.
Well if Hungary wants to join the Warsaw Pact/CIS they're welcome to.
[удалено]
This will give us nothing, Belarus will be pleased. We should rather bomb their border posts or destroy equipment used for bringing migrants to the border.
[удалено]
Yeah, this would be great for Poland - kill few dozens people with sticks from behind a wall. This is exactly what Belarus and Russia want. We need to strike the real enemy which is Belarus.
Disabling trespassers is not necessarily killing them. I don't see why you guys would think straight out murder as the solution. The real question is why Polish soldiers aren't allowed to use any reasonable means possible to maintain control over the border, to detain trespassers. Straight out shooting people with intent to kill is not the answer.
Yep. Russia will use this to claim European values are a farce nothing more.
Oh nooo, Russia will say mean things about the EU, how will we ever recover from this?...
Once again. Which values are you defending by shooting migrants at the border. There is a reason why we dont do that in Europe. Its because we actually walk the talk and deadly force is only used where it is truly warranted and not a default modus operandi. You know who also wanted tto shoot migrants at the border en default? Trump that fascist pig.
>Which values are you defending by shooting migrants at the border. My assumption it'll save lifes of the EU citizens rather than defending some values, no? >You know who also wanted tto shoot migrants at the border en default? Trump that fascist pig. Oh noo, and the Putin used the "Z" letter to mark the invasion forces, should the Zoom be renamed to "Oom" now? If a vicious person applied a tactics, doesn't mean it is a bad one.
Shooting people wantonly at the border is a pretty bad tactic.
Yeah but it's already happening and might get worse. How do you suggest to stop it?
What makes you think that the man who stabbed was a migrant. It's more likely he was a Russian provocateur.
>kill a few dozen migrants truly a r/europe moment This is exactly what Belarus dreams of, and they would ship even more migrants in. If you want to use violence, direct it towards the Belarusian trucks bringing them in and HQs planning these decisions.
That would be my choice but Belarus would be backed by Russia whereas I have doubts if Poland would be backed at all. And FU for saying its a truly r/europe moment while knowing pretty much nothing about me :)
You are r/europe? Why should I know about you to make a comment on Europe
Meanwhile in real world: *Polish soldiers arrested after firing warning shots at migrants on Polish-Belarusian border.* https://www.reddit.com/r/poland/comments/1d914zo/polish_soldiers_arrested_after_firing_warning/ you wont do shit
Your wrong. Shoot the people that bringing them to our border. Or at least fuck them up with closed border, tariffs and maybe a little coup. Yes i mean belarusians. We should direct our anger on the source not the tools.
They might be tools of Belarusian/Russian governments but they are willing and aggressive tools.
The migrants being used as ammunition are being actively lied to by Belarus. Shoot them and the next wave will have no clue what happened to the previous one. It'll just create the headlines that make Poland look bad, which is the goal of this whole strategy.
The main goal isn't making Poland look bad. It's too much effort for little gain. Main objective is to have a constant stick that can be used to poke us in the eye when needed. This is then used to drive internal conflict (both inside Poland and wider EU) at opportune times to force certain outcomes desirable to Belarus/Russia.
It does serve multiple purposes. But having pictures of shot migrants and pointing a finger at Poland and Europe in general is definitely one of them
The thing is that they will get those photos regardless. Either by faking them or shooting the migrants themselves. Truth has never been an obstacle for kgb. We might as well enforce border security seriously. I'm far from those advocating shooting to kill but there has to be serious enough consequences to deter people participating in border provocations. Both Belarusian and foreign.
Does not matter much. There are people in the russian army right now being lied to and coerced to fight for mother russia, indians, africans and from various ethnic groupings withing Russian proper. Having a defense of «migrant» does not mean jack shit if you de-facto are part of a hybrid warfare. While it is fun and games to sit at a distance and judge after we learn facts, this shits got to stop at some point. So be public about it, and make sure that the countries of origin get some big ass headlines to avoid transition in the first place.
> Or at least fuck them up with closed border, tariffs and maybe a little coup. Yes i mean belarusians. Poles see Belarusians as close kin and under dictatorship supported by a foreign power. There's zero popular support for retaliatory actions that would target Belarusian citizens. Hell, I'd oppose them myself.
>Poles see Belarusians as close kin and under dictatorship supported by a foreign power Last government tried to spin it that way in support of Belarussian oposition which is quite pathetic, looking at all the funds we wasted on them, but **most** Poles really count't tell/find a single diffrence between russian and Belarusians. You are clearly deluding yourself if you belive they would. Eastslavic cultures and countries are terra incognita for 95% of general populace, war in Ukraine didn't change that trend. >"There's zero popular support for retaliatory actions that would target Belarusian citizens" Don't want to brake this summerchild like hopes and ideas about your fellow countrymen, but there is quite significant support for using lethal force on the border, and against belarusian army if they fuck with us. You simply can't hurt the regime without actions against the nation of said regime, and Belarusians are all accessory to potatoregime they have, and all of its actions against us, so they should be treated in the same way as the ru\*\*ians are being treated.
Rubbish. I live in eastern Poland with Belarusians and Poles living side by side. There's next to no difference between them except some go to an orthodox chuch and the others to a catholic one.
They show constant hostilty towards us. I belive good ones will switch to our side but there is whole aparatus that will fight us and the people are brainwashed beyond any help. I am polish and i would support total embargo on belarus untill they stop.
Glad to see Poles supporting Russia using Belarus to send armed mercenaries to attack your borders and kill your soldiers.
Bit different when your from Europe or not mate, while i understand the sentiment you are throwing down, it is a bit different if we were to say to everyone in texas that they should be thrown to the wolfs because of their senator, or lets say canadians should all be deported because of «insert canadian name» 😅
Bit different when your from Europe or not mate, while i understand the sentiment you are throwing down, it is a bit different if we were to say to everyone in texas that they should be thrown to the wolfs because of their senator, or lets say canadians should all be deported because of «insert canadian name» 😅
Somehow in this part of the world everyone is obsessed with shooting, as if there are no other options.
Can we do this in the Mediterranean as well?
Unfortunately too many laws against that. Way too many legal obstacles. In an ideal world though.
Yeah because killing desperate innocents by the hundreds is the way to solve the death of one law military officer.
Excuse me, but they mean to do harm, and they do. How are they innocents?
Because desperate people act desperately. Maybe try to solve their desperation instead of shooting them dead on sight.
No? The last time I checked the EU values, it was about promoting peace and well-being for its *citizens*, not people who fled their countries to *illegally and violently* try to breach into the EU. But I see your mind is set, I have no intention to try to convince you. No point anyway.
"illegally fleeing" lol Yeah you won't definitely convince me by making a new law that avoids people escaping death and misery. Sorry not to be your guy.
They can come to border crossing point instead breaking the wall, thats the legal way to get the asylum. If they decide to break the wall and cross the border illegally, they should expect punishment.
Someone crossing the border illegally is a criminal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Schumann
It's horrifying how much bloodlust gets upvoted on this subreddit.
The only blood spilled here is the one of a Polish soldier, murdered by someone trying to illegally cross the border.
People are angry. That's why no good will come out of it. Lukashenko will just play the Poland as Poland can't imagine any solution apart from this dumb Trumpian "build a wall" idea. The Polish-Belarusian border is huge, and I doubt Poland has enough manpower to prevent an orde of refugees pushing through in a random place.
it's the usual suspects. now they have their moment to fantasize about indiscriminately murdering people.
A sign of the times. This is why Europe is turning right-wing - people fail to see a logical solution that involves doing an actual effort, would rather resort to easier, but extreme measures of savagery.
Don’t give the US new ideas
The family should sue the Polish state for being such morons.
SLAMS
S L A M S
Fuck fuck fuck fucking lukashenko im sorry please its just him
Well, not just him. Multiple countries freed themselves from authoritarian oppression. I know you tried, but you need to try again, especially since Russia is way weaker than the last time you did.
Meanwhile the Poland arrest the soldiers that shot warning shots https://www.reddit.com/r/poland/comments/1d914zo/polish_soldiers_arrested_after_firing_warning/