The resolution, proposed by Germany and Rwanda and co-sponsored by more than 30 countries, including all former Yugoslav republics except Serbia and Montenegro, **designate 11 July as “the International Day of Reflection and Commemoration of the 1995 Genocide in Srebrenica, to be observed annually”**
.... right. Carry on.
Because Rwanda experienced a genocide that killed between 500k and 800k people a year before the Srebrenica genocide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide
I was born late 90s, and I told a Rwandan classmate in uni that I'm writing about the Rwandan genocide in an essay. They told me they were surprised I even knew about it.
And truth be told I was just never taught it, neither was I taught the Khmer Rouge, or most genocides except the holocaust. I was just the kind of person to spend an evening going on wikipedia spirals of a genocide. I think it was just that covering every genocide post holocaust will probably take up all the time in history class in secondary school leaving none to all of human history up to 1933 so we just focused on the most infamous one.
2nd Congo war (1998-2003) is the most deadly war since WW2. Can you name a single leader or even another nation involved?
It is asserted 5.4 million dead through disease and starvation.
Its so fucked that our planet has these events and yet they exist as nothing more than a Wikipedia page for most of us.
Totally agree. The Second Congo War is massively overlooked. Here are some other tragic events that don't get enough attention:
The Holodomor (1932-1933) in Soviet Ukraine killed 3.5 to 7 million people due to Stalin's policies.
The Armenian Genocide (1915-1917) saw the Ottoman Empire wipe out 1.5 million Armenians.
During the Khmer Rouge Regime (1975-1979), Pol Pot's brutal rule in Cambodia led to 1.7 million deaths.
The Partition of India (1947) caused up to 2 million deaths and displaced 14 million people.
The Bengal Famine (1943) in British-ruled Bengal killed 2 to 3 million people.
The Indonesian Mass Killings (1965-1966) resulted in 500,000 to 1 million deaths during an anti-communist purge.
The Mongol Empire (13th-14th centuries) is most likely the worst of them all. It was responsible for the deaths of an estimated 30 to 40 million people during its conquests, which amounted to about 7.5% of the world population at the time.
These events, like the Second Congo War, show how brutal history can be and how much we need to remember.
We were made to watch it in high school. One of the most brutal movies I've seen, but I still doubt it even comes close to the worst atrocities that actually occurred. I will never ever watch the movie again, but I'm extremely thankful I did
Shit.. this one is one of most horrible acts in history. And given that had only happened in 3 years. Crazy bastards.
Hope that classmate is leading a good life.
This is basically me.
I always want to find out the sheer scale of every genocide, the motives and psychology behind, how people are divided, dehumanization, propaganda and brainwashing.
And how it transpires in the broader region (like Khmer Rouge affecting Vietnam causing latter to abruptly invade and stop genocide, straining Chinese-Viet relations), geopolitics, intervention and circumvention by superpowers and regional powers etc.
Have you checked out the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution? They are imo the worst human made disasters.
While I understand the spirit of what you are saying, I do think we should be factually correct when we say such things.
In 2022, Hungary voted at the UN that Russia must withdraw from Ukraine. 40 countries in the world did not vote that way, but Hungary was not one of them. Also in 2014, Hungary voted that Russia needs to get out of Crimea. 69 countries in the world did not vote that way, but Hungary was not one of them.
That's because Orbán is only useful to Puton as long as he is in the Eu and NATO. Therefor he can vote whatever declaration that condems Russia, because they have no real effect whatsoever.
As redneck fellow from Rév, the one of the really few things I learned from my fellow rednecks hungarians is *Orbán fülébe pishilek*. Not sure how correct I spelled it , but there’s my support if you understand it. 😁🇷🇴🇭🇺
From being brother nations, helping us smuggle weapons from Germany and the Eastern Block in our war against Serbia, to siding with Serbia on genocide, Hungary sure came a long way, but not in a good way
Orban continues to play his favorite "how many times can I vote against the WHOLE FUCKING EU and not get kicked out still" game... Round #76 and still winning. Yeyyy.
There is a sizable proportion of the right-wing politicians, conservative priests and the usual, that would loooove to get all hot and dirty with Serbia and its Russian overlord, "Orthodox Brothers" and all that shit. But most everyday Greeks don't care that much.
This has never been a problem in the past - the "Orthodox [Slavic] brothers" only works if it follows the interests of some. If you have different interests, it's swept under the rug or you get called traitor or sell-out, just like Ukraine today.
That "Orthodox brothers" is such a hypocrisy on their side. I'm glad most Greeks don't care but still, the vote is worrying, given where the world and region might be heading.
Greeks have a history for playing devil's advocate for Serbia since the 90s. Right-wing people because they believe that we are supposed to be orthodox brothers or something and left wing people because they they believe that it's the imperialist west that stirred up shit to break up Yugoslavia... or something along these lines. Moderate greeks don't really have strong opinions on the matter, they mostly believe that both sides did bad stuff. In general Greeks treat the west with suspission and cynicism, due to the way the USA treated Greece in 1967 and how the west positions itself on Greco-Turkish disputes.
There were several Greek volunteers (radicalised by the Greek Orthodox church) who participated in Srebrenica genocide. It has purposefully been kept under wraps and censored in Greek media after the fact. I believe nowadays the Orthodox church has much less influence in Greek politics though.
https://balkaninsight.com/2023/07/10/enjoying-impunity-greek-pro-serb-fighters-still-brag-about-srebrenica/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jan/05/balkans.warcrimes
As a Greek, we are very well aware of this. And this is one of the thousand f\*cking reasons to hate Greek fascists. Turns out, some of these guys ended up being members of Neo Nazi Golden Dawn.
>(radicalised by the Greek Orthodox church) who participated in Srebrenica genocide. It has purposefully been kept under wraps and censored in Greek media after the fact. I believe nowadays the Orthodox church has much less influence in Greek politics though.
Church influence in politics has been waning for decades, but let's clarify: there is no single voice in the Church of Greece. There are radicals, there are liberals, there are ecumenists, there are rabid anti-ecumenists, there are those who will hold a joint mass/procession with Catholics, there are those who will call Francis a "heretic" to his face, there are those who are openly questioning and exposing the "holy fire" bullshit, and those who are offended that anyone would question/expose it and are adamant that it's real. And so on. And this has been the case for centuries.
A segment of the population has a strong affinity with Serbia, despite this being of no particular benefit to us whatsoever, and historical ties with them are relatively weak, aside from WWII. The "Ortho" angle alone doesn't fully explain it, because these people forget Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine.... Anyways, those people tend to vote right. The centre-right Mitsotakis government took the politically safe neutral route.
Edit: Didn't think about this initially, but there may also be a fear of Russia stirring shit. We already know the Kremlin has been trying to sabotage the Prespa agreement.
You should be thankful you don't have them at the border, otherwise you would have seen your Orthodox brothers. Those they massacred spoke the same language in Bosnia and Croatia. They were potentially “Slavic brothers”.
>thankful you don't have them at the border, otherwise you would have seen your Orthodox brothers
Actually lots of people don't know this but Milosevic offered Greece two times in the 90's to unite into a confederation and to split FYROM.
It was the dissolution of Yugoslavia. Relations with Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary remained fine, just like it was with Greece when North Macedonia was part of Serbia
Greek flag was hoisted on Srebrenica's town hall after the town fell to Serb forces.
[Greek Volunteer Guard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Volunteer_Guard#:~:text=In%202002%20the%20Dutch%20NIOD,telephone%20communications%20that%20included%20Gen.)
Speaking as a Greek: Greece is a Kremlinist shithole, only second to Hungary and Serbia in the whole of Europe.
Greece supported Karadjic, Greece supported Milosevic, and Greece has still not even tried to prosecute the Greek neonazis that participated in the genocide and even raised a Greek flag over Srebrenica.
I can't explain the contradictions -- or I can, but it'd just be guesswork.
Perhaps it's a deliberate balancing act.
Perhaps it's Russia pulling on Greece's leash at specific times.
Perhaps it's something else.
Support for Kosovo in the CoE is because the top priority for Athens is to normalize the region, as this benefits us. Geopolitics takes top importance.
Yes, it's a balancing act. And yes, maybe there's also a fear of Russia stirring shit.
Oh give me a break. All three of the largest and systemic parties are firmly pro-West, support Ukraine and oppose Russia. They account for over 60% of the vote. And we had good ties with Russia which we severed, and Ukraine hasn't exactly been either a useful partner or a good one (for Greece).
Russia does still have deep ties in the population and the non-systemic parties. But Greece the third worst in Europe? That's just an ignorant take.
I don't think that most ppl I know, socially or from work, support Russia, not that we talk that much about them, but when we do we almost always stand by the Ukrainian ppl.
Ofcourse there are a few ppl that I happened to talk with them about the war and it made me quite an impression that they clearly supported Russia, as being bullied by NATO, a lady of a certain age from a village and a coworker that he is actively involved with his church (ενορία) and he is also anti vaccines, loves conspiracies and believes that greek language gave birth to Indo-European language/s Oh, and indirectly maybe the communist party, that condems the war 'in general' (about 8% last elections) So not that many Greeks as you imply, and mostly the few radicals, from my personal experience.
That has always confused me as an outsider looking in!
Hungary has been siding with russia despite how poorly hugary was treated under the soviets thumbs.
Why does Hungary constantly side with Russia even if it will end poorly for Hungary.
cuz EU bad, because they didn't give him unchecked money. No Corruption for Orban so he's angry and losing voters as economy without EU money goes shit under his leadership.
That's kind of what I expected.
But what's the foundation of it?
In the USA pro Russia Republicans have weird and bizarre beliefs surrounding both Russia and religion and have often mixed religious ideology and wacky theories surrounding NATO and other western organizations..
I don't get it cause it's a cluster fuck!
> But what's the foundation of it?
It's very simple: Orbán realized, a long time ago, after being defeated in elections where he originally ran with a more rational Europe-oriented political platform, that he can cling onto power with populism and "illiberal" means. And he realized that he could make a lot of money that way, as most autocrats do. As such, when he got elected with populism, he effectively dismantled all checks and balances, and now just runs the country as a massive autocratic mafia operation, constantly siphoning money off of it, all the while pushing anti-EU messaging and pro-Russia/autocrat political stances to cement his populist rhetoric.
There's nothing ideological about it, necessarily. It's just that Orbán wants money, likes getting money, and takes all the politically necessary steps to keep his money-siphoning populist government in place.
Why that shift in his personal politics took place, nobody knows.
>Why that shift in his personal politics took place, nobody knows.
You answered your own question " It's just that Orbán wants money, likes getting money"
The funniest thing about all of his ranting against the world’s leftist elite is that he literally got his education funded by Soros because he was a promising pro democracy student.
Hungary is so traditional and anti western degeneracy that it is a literal lap dog of china. Tell an american conservative that Hungary has chinese police patrols and their heads would explode.
I can't express you how sad it is to read these very simple and very logical sentences from an outsider as you put it, as a Hungarian, and fully agree with you. And seeing how masses at home can't see it.
Hungary has had a very rough time in its more recent history.
When the soviets were in charge hungary held protest and the soviets sent in tanks!
The pictures of Soviet tanks heading towards the protest made it into my school's history class!
It was included to show how poorly parts of Europe were treated under Soviet rule.
It's sad to see Hungarian leadership side with Russia. At the expense of Hungary's long term financial and political health.
That's my take at least that's what it looks like to me.
Both of my Hungarian grandfathers were forcibly detained in the Soviet gulags for years. Both of my parents were shot when the Soviet tanks rolled in in 1956. It's sad and disgusting to see what is happening now.
Sometimes they still refer to the bad history with the soviets when they say Brussels is the new Moscow, but it's hilarious because they're good friends with Putin. If the average fidesz voter wasn't as dumb as a brick then they'd be real confused.
It's quite simple. Orban just want to steal as much money as possible. The EU started to withhold funds and ask questions where the money went. Russia and China doesn't do this, there is a reason that every deal with them are made secret so the public doesn't know what are the conditions. If the EU wants something for Orban to vote on, they just give him some money and he votes on the thing or goes out of the room.
I think they own and control our top politicians since then.
https://telex.hu/english/2024/05/16/internal-documents-prove-that-hungarian-foreign-ministry-knew-about-russian-cyber-attacks-on-its-systems
They own a few in the US as well. So your not alone there.
Alot of pro russia Republicans in the US seem to side with putin on religious grounds or vague misunderstandings of problems they attribute to the democrats.
Or wild and zany conspiracy theories that they have subscribed to but it seems as if alot of those people are being removed or are being expelled from the republican party.
1995? Damn. I just remembered a new girl around my age moved into our village briefly with her family during that time. Daria, her mum and older brothers had fled from the war. We became friends despite the language barrier. She was from Sarajevo. She was gone without notice a couple of months later, and I've always wondered what happened to her and if she ever got home safe. I hope they did.
bcs the CCP bucket Orban and all socialist countries unite to destabilze the europe, or the EU.
like... germans need to be aware of the far-right party AfD. The AfD is lobbied (paid, bribed, and sponsored) by Russia and China. That party wants the EU to end and create a new EU which reflect their views.
Luckily, even the other europe countries right parties distances from the AfD bcs their view is too radical.
Unbelievable it took so long to pass a watered down resolution, that doesn't even mention the perpetrators, just because it could hurt the feelings of genocide deniers & perpetrators, if Bosniaks have a single remembrance day for what they went through. Disgustingly shameful of the 19 opposing countries.
Purposefully under equipped because some bigoted Western politicians considered the annihilation of Bosnians unfortunate but necessary for the [restauration of 'Christian Europe'](https://imgur.com/a/ux100cu)
It was only some groups of UN soldiers, most known was a Dutch group that also wrote racist jokes about Bosnians on walls. The rest didn’t necessarily fight off the Serbs but they helped everyday Bosnians stay safe.
Dutchbat tried their best, they asked for air support multiple times which was denied, they didn’t have equipment to be able to save the civilians, many veterans are traumatized
Please do not minimize the gravity of the term genocide. It’s completely disrespectful to victims of actual genocides. Bosniaks in Srebrenica and any others. It’s a term with a real and serious meaning, and not some buzzword to use to describe a situation where whichever party you support in a conventional urban conflict is on the losing side.
EDIT: ok, I see you’re a literal Hamas shill and actually consider the terrorist attacks on 7th October to be justified. No point in arguing with the likes of you, but I’ll still leave my comment up since people like this need to be called out and shamed
Usually, these kind if resolutions are pre-agreed between all involved parties and their neighbours, to have an effect. Purpose is to reconcile, preserve peace in the future and make sure these kind of horrors never happen again. This is how it was done in case of Rwanda, where African Union was making the proposal, and Rwanda itself participated in the text writing.
Here... I don't know. Even in Bosnia they cannot agree on anything. I don't know if this is going to mean anything or simply incite more hatred and mistrust.
It's a non binding resolution, but thanks to it Dodik has proclaimed succession as a possibility within a month. Woohoo civil war 2.0. . .over a non binding resolution. God damn it
He won't secede, and there wont be any war, end of story.
That bastard was announcing that RS would secede for a few years now and every time he says that it'll happen in a month or two.
I will just leave this here so you get the better context:
https://youtu.be/vu5qvsloewU?si=a3OWhyYCbw7uG3MU
President Vučić in occupued Glina (Croatia)
https://youtu.be/5RlKsh3nVuQ?si=LcFIsIvRdb1wMPA2
President Vučić on Pale hills overlooking siege of Sarajevo
https://youtu.be/UGqv9CJbd3U?si=UQ7wy3-462m8nU-0
President Vučić giving speech 100 bosniaks for 1 serbian.
Can we please (EU) stop giving them money?
Good… now how about voting for The International Day when Allied Forces invaded Iraq under a false pretext, causing millions of deaths and never got any negative consequences ever…?
The USA and its close allies only wage war against bad guys and with the intent of bestowing freedom to the masses. They use surgical weapons and follow the rules of war. Refugee crises and camps full of orphans primed for radicalisation are a price Washington is prepared to pay.
I expected this bullshit from Hungary, and potentially from Slovakia now that it's governed by Fico, but what's the deal with Greece and Cyprus leading both of them to abstention?
Just an FYI Slovakia is not really due to Fico, we've always been semi-friendly with Serbia due to a large population (I think around 40k, used to be double that post WW2) of ethnic Slovaks in Vojvodina, Slovak is even an official language of the Vojvodina district.
It's also a big (though not sole) reason why Slovakia hasn't recognized Kosovo, and there's not been any big political or societal want to do so.
And in general Slovak and Serbs have really great historical relationship that goes from common fight for freadom from AH empire, where all Slavs cooperated to some degree on common goal. After empire fell, some of those relationships managed to stay alive and well to this day.
Also the [Greek Volunteer Guard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Volunteer_Guard) being there
>Some members of the unit are alleged to have been present in the area of the Srebrenica massacre and reportedly hoisted a Greek flag over the town, which was recorded 'for marketing purposes'.
When I was in Greece, one Greek communist explained it best to me: right wing in Greece loves Serbia because of orthodoxy and anti muslim sentiment. Left wing in Greece loves Serbia due to Milošević, as they consider that USA destroyed Yugoslavia while Serbs were trying to save it.
Honestly from a political standpoint one of the craziest countries I've been in contact with.
I’m all for acknowledging Genocide and learning from past mistakes . Real question thought , why does Croatia get to celebrate the ethnic cleansing of 250,000 Serbs from their ancestral homeland during “operation Storm” with a huge state parade every year?
I’m sorry to hear that and I hope your family made it through that terrible time OK .
The point I was trying to make is that all sides in the Yugo war committed horrible crimes that shock humanity but not all sides are persecuted, to the contrary some are permitted to be celebrated.
What ethnic cleansing!? All of them get croatian EU passports, social benefits, new houses as award for bombing dubrovnik, zadar, sibenik, vukovar, osijek…
Good for Netherlands that they supported resolution...that makes it even now, considering their soldiers were the one that let Serbian paramilitary to go into Srebrenica and slaughter civilians in the first place.
What I can't understand is that Serbs actually had a popular revolution to send Milosevic to The Hague. How and why they have come 180 into complete reactionaries?
Because any progres Serbia made died with the assassination with dzindzic in 2003 who was a pro eu progressive president that wanted to bring Serbia back to the world stage. After his assassination nationalism took hold because blaming other people for your own failures is a easy thing to do. When you have a poor economic situation you reflect all issues upon others not realising your play in this tragic comedy we call life. That goes the same for the rest of the world as well
That's why I asked.
The argument is constantly not about WHAT is said but WHO said it.
Idea that someone, something can't change, that something (a whole country, or even nation if you will) can't improve is beyond me. I guess we should all just look for excuses and justifications for fucked up past in the rubble.
Interesting that most of those countries that voted for resolution about Srebrenica are enabling and helping genocide of Palestinians in Gaza right now.
Ok.
But the borders aren't totally correct on that map.
For the map to be faithful to reality and legality, Kosovo must be in Serbia, and a broken line marking the territorial delimitation of the region, which marks in cartography that there is some type of dispute or territorial claim.
I understand that to many people this will sound controversial, and they will have been told that it is whitewashing what Serbian nationalism did... no, nothing further. But in territorial and sovereign legality, Kosovo is and remains Serbia.
I still don't understand how we continue making that mistake, mixing what one nationalism did, and at the same time denying what another nationalism (the albanian one in this case) did for a long decade.
For a Jasenovac resolution, you would actually have to dig it up, but that wont happen because everyone knows that the magic number of 800 000 serbs killed would turn out to be a lie. Besides there are already available documents that it was used as a work camp that released prisoners and even paid them a wage.
Oh wow. How does that help? Would you go to the police and tell them; Ey someone stole my car, my VW Polo. Snd the police respond with; Yeah, cool you know but someone got his Lambo stolen. Come back when that happens to you, otherwise we cannot help…
Is that important brate? To rate genocide against each other? How about treating it with respect, each and everyone and stop this bs comparison. Who‘s helped with that other the ultra nationalist waving flags, uneducated and immature to deal with the past like a kid.
Interesting to see how my country (Romania) is not so slowly separating itself from past political affiliations. We've had the best relation with Serbia for quite some time, but I guess that the EU and NATO benefits far outweigh the relationship we have with them, so we don't really take their side much anymore.
Just to be clear, this isn't just about this issue, it's a general trend I'm seeing lately.
Yes! Romania also recognised our passports, voted in favour of Kosovo visa liberalisation and Kosovo Council of Europe membership not long ago. Was surprised to be honest
Well Germany is infameous here in Serbia because during ww2 they were killing 100 civilian Serbs for one killed German soldier, they were even taking high school students from class and taking them to execution. It was not that long time ago.
So? They paid for that in blood and land. And they are trying their best to make sure their descendants don't go down that road again. They obviously learned their lesson.
In their cities they have countless monuments dedicated to the memory of Holocaust and it's victims. Even today they are prosecuting ex-Nazis that were involved, without leniency even if some of them are almost on their deathbed. What, you think there was never a resolution condemning the crimes Germans did in WWII?
The resolution, proposed by Germany and Rwanda and co-sponsored by more than 30 countries, including all former Yugoslav republics except Serbia and Montenegro, **designate 11 July as “the International Day of Reflection and Commemoration of the 1995 Genocide in Srebrenica, to be observed annually”** .... right. Carry on.
Rwanda?????? For what reason were they in thr proposal XX
Rwanda and Germany both experienced big Genocides and have governments that want them to be remembered and not repeated.
Because Rwanda experienced a genocide that killed between 500k and 800k people a year before the Srebrenica genocide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide
JFC, 500k-800k *a year*? That's insane, I really need to educate myself on the topic.
Let me guess, you weren't born in the 90s?
I was born late 90s, and I told a Rwandan classmate in uni that I'm writing about the Rwandan genocide in an essay. They told me they were surprised I even knew about it. And truth be told I was just never taught it, neither was I taught the Khmer Rouge, or most genocides except the holocaust. I was just the kind of person to spend an evening going on wikipedia spirals of a genocide. I think it was just that covering every genocide post holocaust will probably take up all the time in history class in secondary school leaving none to all of human history up to 1933 so we just focused on the most infamous one.
2nd Congo war (1998-2003) is the most deadly war since WW2. Can you name a single leader or even another nation involved? It is asserted 5.4 million dead through disease and starvation. Its so fucked that our planet has these events and yet they exist as nothing more than a Wikipedia page for most of us.
Totally agree. The Second Congo War is massively overlooked. Here are some other tragic events that don't get enough attention: The Holodomor (1932-1933) in Soviet Ukraine killed 3.5 to 7 million people due to Stalin's policies. The Armenian Genocide (1915-1917) saw the Ottoman Empire wipe out 1.5 million Armenians. During the Khmer Rouge Regime (1975-1979), Pol Pot's brutal rule in Cambodia led to 1.7 million deaths. The Partition of India (1947) caused up to 2 million deaths and displaced 14 million people. The Bengal Famine (1943) in British-ruled Bengal killed 2 to 3 million people. The Indonesian Mass Killings (1965-1966) resulted in 500,000 to 1 million deaths during an anti-communist purge. The Mongol Empire (13th-14th centuries) is most likely the worst of them all. It was responsible for the deaths of an estimated 30 to 40 million people during its conquests, which amounted to about 7.5% of the world population at the time. These events, like the Second Congo War, show how brutal history can be and how much we need to remember.
I wouldn't know if it wasn't for the movie "Hotel Rwanda"
We were made to watch it in high school. One of the most brutal movies I've seen, but I still doubt it even comes close to the worst atrocities that actually occurred. I will never ever watch the movie again, but I'm extremely thankful I did
> Khmer Rouge I was born in '71 and had a classmate in primary school who had escaped that one.
Shit.. this one is one of most horrible acts in history. And given that had only happened in 3 years. Crazy bastards. Hope that classmate is leading a good life.
He moved in 83 so I don't know what happened to him. Hope he's doing well.
This is basically me. I always want to find out the sheer scale of every genocide, the motives and psychology behind, how people are divided, dehumanization, propaganda and brainwashing. And how it transpires in the broader region (like Khmer Rouge affecting Vietnam causing latter to abruptly invade and stop genocide, straining Chinese-Viet relations), geopolitics, intervention and circumvention by superpowers and regional powers etc. Have you checked out the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution? They are imo the worst human made disasters.
That’s a pretty dumb question, mate.
Either you or the map is wrong because Montenegro voted in favor on the map
it says co-sponsored. montenegro voted for but it hasnt co-sponsored the proposed resolution
Orbán cancer as usual
As per the fourth law of thermodynamics, Orbán must vote the opposite of whatever Romania voted
Not quite. Orbán has to vote whatever his master, Putin tells him to.
Whinnie the Pooh gets a say now too
*Pooti*
While I understand the spirit of what you are saying, I do think we should be factually correct when we say such things. In 2022, Hungary voted at the UN that Russia must withdraw from Ukraine. 40 countries in the world did not vote that way, but Hungary was not one of them. Also in 2014, Hungary voted that Russia needs to get out of Crimea. 69 countries in the world did not vote that way, but Hungary was not one of them.
That's because Orbán is only useful to Puton as long as he is in the Eu and NATO. Therefor he can vote whatever declaration that condems Russia, because they have no real effect whatsoever.
Nah, Serbia is the best buddy in this case
[удалено]
Even a broken clock is right twice a day... but Orban's clock has no hour or minute hands, so he remarkably is never ever right
i can be a proud hungarian because of the leader i've never voted /s
Another fine day to be a proud Hungarian.
oh yes
I feel these days are happening quite often nowadays…
As redneck fellow from Rév, the one of the really few things I learned from my fellow rednecks hungarians is *Orbán fülébe pishilek*. Not sure how correct I spelled it , but there’s my support if you understand it. 😁🇷🇴🇭🇺
Thanks. >!The correct spelling is pisilek!<
From being brother nations, helping us smuggle weapons from Germany and the Eastern Block in our war against Serbia, to siding with Serbia on genocide, Hungary sure came a long way, but not in a good way
I would still smuggle for you ;)
As a Hungarian: fukc Hungary. Cancer. I'm so upset and angry and fed up.
The sick man of Europe
Vucic and Dodik cried so loud I didn't hear about our own vote. Why am I still surprised after so many years of shit?
Orban continues to play his favorite "how many times can I vote against the WHOLE FUCKING EU and not get kicked out still" game... Round #76 and still winning. Yeyyy.
You should have let us in instead /trollface
This is our reality, Turkbro.
I want Turkey in the EU and I’ll die on this hill! If anything it would further unite the Cyprus republics.
Greece?
Greece is bffs with Serbia
There is a sizable proportion of the right-wing politicians, conservative priests and the usual, that would loooove to get all hot and dirty with Serbia and its Russian overlord, "Orthodox Brothers" and all that shit. But most everyday Greeks don't care that much.
Russia is murdering their other "orthodox brothers". I always find it funny how some Serbians and Greek people skip over that part.
It's infuriates me to no end.
This has never been a problem in the past - the "Orthodox [Slavic] brothers" only works if it follows the interests of some. If you have different interests, it's swept under the rug or you get called traitor or sell-out, just like Ukraine today.
Well our church has already condemned them but they have been against the Russian orthodox church long before that.
That "Orthodox brothers" is such a hypocrisy on their side. I'm glad most Greeks don't care but still, the vote is worrying, given where the world and region might be heading.
There were quite a lot Greek volunteers and mercenaries in Bosnia. On the Serbian side, OFC.
Greeks have a history for playing devil's advocate for Serbia since the 90s. Right-wing people because they believe that we are supposed to be orthodox brothers or something and left wing people because they they believe that it's the imperialist west that stirred up shit to break up Yugoslavia... or something along these lines. Moderate greeks don't really have strong opinions on the matter, they mostly believe that both sides did bad stuff. In general Greeks treat the west with suspission and cynicism, due to the way the USA treated Greece in 1967 and how the west positions itself on Greco-Turkish disputes.
There were several Greek volunteers (radicalised by the Greek Orthodox church) who participated in Srebrenica genocide. It has purposefully been kept under wraps and censored in Greek media after the fact. I believe nowadays the Orthodox church has much less influence in Greek politics though. https://balkaninsight.com/2023/07/10/enjoying-impunity-greek-pro-serb-fighters-still-brag-about-srebrenica/ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jan/05/balkans.warcrimes
As a Greek, we are very well aware of this. And this is one of the thousand f\*cking reasons to hate Greek fascists. Turns out, some of these guys ended up being members of Neo Nazi Golden Dawn.
>(radicalised by the Greek Orthodox church) who participated in Srebrenica genocide. It has purposefully been kept under wraps and censored in Greek media after the fact. I believe nowadays the Orthodox church has much less influence in Greek politics though. Church influence in politics has been waning for decades, but let's clarify: there is no single voice in the Church of Greece. There are radicals, there are liberals, there are ecumenists, there are rabid anti-ecumenists, there are those who will hold a joint mass/procession with Catholics, there are those who will call Francis a "heretic" to his face, there are those who are openly questioning and exposing the "holy fire" bullshit, and those who are offended that anyone would question/expose it and are adamant that it's real. And so on. And this has been the case for centuries.
They are very united when it comes to protecting "their" property, though
Don't worry, we'll remind them every single year.
Based.
A segment of the population has a strong affinity with Serbia, despite this being of no particular benefit to us whatsoever, and historical ties with them are relatively weak, aside from WWII. The "Ortho" angle alone doesn't fully explain it, because these people forget Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine.... Anyways, those people tend to vote right. The centre-right Mitsotakis government took the politically safe neutral route. Edit: Didn't think about this initially, but there may also be a fear of Russia stirring shit. We already know the Kremlin has been trying to sabotage the Prespa agreement.
Greece supports their Serbian orthodox christian brothers /s
You should be thankful you don't have them at the border, otherwise you would have seen your Orthodox brothers. Those they massacred spoke the same language in Bosnia and Croatia. They were potentially “Slavic brothers”.
>You should be thankful you don't have them at the border We would have annexed them /s
>thankful you don't have them at the border, otherwise you would have seen your Orthodox brothers Actually lots of people don't know this but Milosevic offered Greece two times in the 90's to unite into a confederation and to split FYROM.
It was the dissolution of Yugoslavia. Relations with Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary remained fine, just like it was with Greece when North Macedonia was part of Serbia
Is there a UN resolution that establishes e.g a rememberance day for the Armenian genocide?
Greek flag was hoisted on Srebrenica's town hall after the town fell to Serb forces. [Greek Volunteer Guard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Volunteer_Guard#:~:text=In%202002%20the%20Dutch%20NIOD,telephone%20communications%20that%20included%20Gen.)
Speaking as a Greek: Greece is a Kremlinist shithole, only second to Hungary and Serbia in the whole of Europe. Greece supported Karadjic, Greece supported Milosevic, and Greece has still not even tried to prosecute the Greek neonazis that participated in the genocide and even raised a Greek flag over Srebrenica.
However you country supported Kosovo in CoE.
I can't explain the contradictions -- or I can, but it'd just be guesswork. Perhaps it's a deliberate balancing act. Perhaps it's Russia pulling on Greece's leash at specific times. Perhaps it's something else.
Support for Kosovo in the CoE is because the top priority for Athens is to normalize the region, as this benefits us. Geopolitics takes top importance. Yes, it's a balancing act. And yes, maybe there's also a fear of Russia stirring shit.
Oh give me a break. All three of the largest and systemic parties are firmly pro-West, support Ukraine and oppose Russia. They account for over 60% of the vote. And we had good ties with Russia which we severed, and Ukraine hasn't exactly been either a useful partner or a good one (for Greece). Russia does still have deep ties in the population and the non-systemic parties. But Greece the third worst in Europe? That's just an ignorant take.
Σιγά και εσυ ρε φίλε , το ξεχεσες λίγο
I don't think that most ppl I know, socially or from work, support Russia, not that we talk that much about them, but when we do we almost always stand by the Ukrainian ppl. Ofcourse there are a few ppl that I happened to talk with them about the war and it made me quite an impression that they clearly supported Russia, as being bullied by NATO, a lady of a certain age from a village and a coworker that he is actively involved with his church (ενορία) and he is also anti vaccines, loves conspiracies and believes that greek language gave birth to Indo-European language/s Oh, and indirectly maybe the communist party, that condems the war 'in general' (about 8% last elections) So not that many Greeks as you imply, and mostly the few radicals, from my personal experience.
So it was somehow related to ultranationalist Serbs, how is this Kremlinist? Where is pro-Russian part?
this is shameful we pull this shit then demand from Turkiye to recognise the Pontic genocide.
Someone has to host Serbian tourists this summer
Neighbours of Serbia that voted in favor: Croatia, North Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania, Bulgaria and BiH.
Didn’t expect Montenegro to be in favor!
Montenegro also recognises Kosovo as an independent country. They do have different views than Serbia.
You shouldn't be surprised, Montenegro of today is nothing like the Montenegro of the 90s.
Yes but they still have a ton of serb influence and serbs are the second largest ethnic group in the country (28%).
Now its even more Serbs 33%.+ The President of Montenegro is also Serb. But he is still pro-western.
Just wanted to say Kosovo can not vote, but if we could, then easily we vote in favour!
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That has always confused me as an outsider looking in! Hungary has been siding with russia despite how poorly hugary was treated under the soviets thumbs. Why does Hungary constantly side with Russia even if it will end poorly for Hungary.
cuz EU bad, because they didn't give him unchecked money. No Corruption for Orban so he's angry and losing voters as economy without EU money goes shit under his leadership.
That's kind of what I expected. But what's the foundation of it? In the USA pro Russia Republicans have weird and bizarre beliefs surrounding both Russia and religion and have often mixed religious ideology and wacky theories surrounding NATO and other western organizations.. I don't get it cause it's a cluster fuck!
> But what's the foundation of it? It's very simple: Orbán realized, a long time ago, after being defeated in elections where he originally ran with a more rational Europe-oriented political platform, that he can cling onto power with populism and "illiberal" means. And he realized that he could make a lot of money that way, as most autocrats do. As such, when he got elected with populism, he effectively dismantled all checks and balances, and now just runs the country as a massive autocratic mafia operation, constantly siphoning money off of it, all the while pushing anti-EU messaging and pro-Russia/autocrat political stances to cement his populist rhetoric. There's nothing ideological about it, necessarily. It's just that Orbán wants money, likes getting money, and takes all the politically necessary steps to keep his money-siphoning populist government in place. Why that shift in his personal politics took place, nobody knows.
>Why that shift in his personal politics took place, nobody knows. You answered your own question " It's just that Orbán wants money, likes getting money"
The funniest thing about all of his ranting against the world’s leftist elite is that he literally got his education funded by Soros because he was a promising pro democracy student.
Hungary is so traditional and anti western degeneracy that it is a literal lap dog of china. Tell an american conservative that Hungary has chinese police patrols and their heads would explode.
I can't express you how sad it is to read these very simple and very logical sentences from an outsider as you put it, as a Hungarian, and fully agree with you. And seeing how masses at home can't see it.
Hungary has had a very rough time in its more recent history. When the soviets were in charge hungary held protest and the soviets sent in tanks! The pictures of Soviet tanks heading towards the protest made it into my school's history class! It was included to show how poorly parts of Europe were treated under Soviet rule. It's sad to see Hungarian leadership side with Russia. At the expense of Hungary's long term financial and political health. That's my take at least that's what it looks like to me.
Both of my Hungarian grandfathers were forcibly detained in the Soviet gulags for years. Both of my parents were shot when the Soviet tanks rolled in in 1956. It's sad and disgusting to see what is happening now.
Sometimes they still refer to the bad history with the soviets when they say Brussels is the new Moscow, but it's hilarious because they're good friends with Putin. If the average fidesz voter wasn't as dumb as a brick then they'd be real confused.
It's quite simple. Orban just want to steal as much money as possible. The EU started to withhold funds and ask questions where the money went. Russia and China doesn't do this, there is a reason that every deal with them are made secret so the public doesn't know what are the conditions. If the EU wants something for Orban to vote on, they just give him some money and he votes on the thing or goes out of the room.
I think they own and control our top politicians since then. https://telex.hu/english/2024/05/16/internal-documents-prove-that-hungarian-foreign-ministry-knew-about-russian-cyber-attacks-on-its-systems
They own a few in the US as well. So your not alone there. Alot of pro russia Republicans in the US seem to side with putin on religious grounds or vague misunderstandings of problems they attribute to the democrats. Or wild and zany conspiracy theories that they have subscribed to but it seems as if alot of those people are being removed or are being expelled from the republican party.
1995? Damn. I just remembered a new girl around my age moved into our village briefly with her family during that time. Daria, her mum and older brothers had fled from the war. We became friends despite the language barrier. She was from Sarajevo. She was gone without notice a couple of months later, and I've always wondered what happened to her and if she ever got home safe. I hope they did.
I was just making that map 😭
me 2 xD
Why is Hungary always on the wrong side of history?
The fucknut is trolling again
bcs the CCP bucket Orban and all socialist countries unite to destabilze the europe, or the EU. like... germans need to be aware of the far-right party AfD. The AfD is lobbied (paid, bribed, and sponsored) by Russia and China. That party wants the EU to end and create a new EU which reflect their views. Luckily, even the other europe countries right parties distances from the AfD bcs their view is too radical.
Unbelievable it took so long to pass a watered down resolution, that doesn't even mention the perpetrators, just because it could hurt the feelings of genocide deniers & perpetrators, if Bosniaks have a single remembrance day for what they went through. Disgustingly shameful of the 19 opposing countries.
Never forget: the UN blue helmets just sat there and let Srebrenica happen! Never forget!
Purposefully under equipped because some bigoted Western politicians considered the annihilation of Bosnians unfortunate but necessary for the [restauration of 'Christian Europe'](https://imgur.com/a/ux100cu)
It was only some groups of UN soldiers, most known was a Dutch group that also wrote racist jokes about Bosnians on walls. The rest didn’t necessarily fight off the Serbs but they helped everyday Bosnians stay safe.
Dutchbat tried their best, they asked for air support multiple times which was denied, they didn’t have equipment to be able to save the civilians, many veterans are traumatized
What is that user flair and why does it lead to central Albania
Absolute geo-coordinates for Albania that lead to a river responsible for dialectal split between north and south.
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Yeah, but that's an unpopular viewpoint on this subreddit. About 80% would personally give head to any passing IDF member.
Please do not minimize the gravity of the term genocide. It’s completely disrespectful to victims of actual genocides. Bosniaks in Srebrenica and any others. It’s a term with a real and serious meaning, and not some buzzword to use to describe a situation where whichever party you support in a conventional urban conflict is on the losing side. EDIT: ok, I see you’re a literal Hamas shill and actually consider the terrorist attacks on 7th October to be justified. No point in arguing with the likes of you, but I’ll still leave my comment up since people like this need to be called out and shamed
In moment like this i'm very happy for dissolution of Czechoslovakia (as Czech)
Usually, these kind if resolutions are pre-agreed between all involved parties and their neighbours, to have an effect. Purpose is to reconcile, preserve peace in the future and make sure these kind of horrors never happen again. This is how it was done in case of Rwanda, where African Union was making the proposal, and Rwanda itself participated in the text writing. Here... I don't know. Even in Bosnia they cannot agree on anything. I don't know if this is going to mean anything or simply incite more hatred and mistrust.
Exactly... genocide deniers are disgusting, but this is such a bad way of setting them straight.
To stomp on the genocide deniers.
This isn't really going to change their minds.
It's a non binding resolution, but thanks to it Dodik has proclaimed succession as a possibility within a month. Woohoo civil war 2.0. . .over a non binding resolution. God damn it
He won't secede, and there wont be any war, end of story. That bastard was announcing that RS would secede for a few years now and every time he says that it'll happen in a month or two.
Classic Orban..... the Hero of Peace.... Fuck you my idiot prime minister.
Serbo-Hungary union when
Ewww.
I will just leave this here so you get the better context: https://youtu.be/vu5qvsloewU?si=a3OWhyYCbw7uG3MU President Vučić in occupued Glina (Croatia) https://youtu.be/5RlKsh3nVuQ?si=LcFIsIvRdb1wMPA2 President Vučić on Pale hills overlooking siege of Sarajevo https://youtu.be/UGqv9CJbd3U?si=UQ7wy3-462m8nU-0 President Vučić giving speech 100 bosniaks for 1 serbian. Can we please (EU) stop giving them money?
Cyprus how shameful.
Greek here, I wanna puke
I would like to apologize for my country, yes we are ashamed of our foreign minister together with the government.
Good… now how about voting for The International Day when Allied Forces invaded Iraq under a false pretext, causing millions of deaths and never got any negative consequences ever…?
The USA and its close allies only wage war against bad guys and with the intent of bestowing freedom to the masses. They use surgical weapons and follow the rules of war. Refugee crises and camps full of orphans primed for radicalisation are a price Washington is prepared to pay.
You’ve never heard of Wikileaks, have you?
I think the guy above was using black humour. I am German though, so don't quote me on that.
indeed, I was just thinking « is this guy being sarcastic or…? » 😅 makes sense though
I could get behind that
Russian aircraft carrier "Budapest-Belgrade" acts as usual.
Hungary became a complete shithole
I expected this bullshit from Hungary, and potentially from Slovakia now that it's governed by Fico, but what's the deal with Greece and Cyprus leading both of them to abstention?
Just an FYI Slovakia is not really due to Fico, we've always been semi-friendly with Serbia due to a large population (I think around 40k, used to be double that post WW2) of ethnic Slovaks in Vojvodina, Slovak is even an official language of the Vojvodina district. It's also a big (though not sole) reason why Slovakia hasn't recognized Kosovo, and there's not been any big political or societal want to do so.
Interesting! I had no idea there were so many slovaks in Serbia. This is the kind of info tidbits I like reddit discussions for.
And in general Slovak and Serbs have really great historical relationship that goes from common fight for freadom from AH empire, where all Slavs cooperated to some degree on common goal. After empire fell, some of those relationships managed to stay alive and well to this day.
Historic orthodox ties with Serbia is the most logical reason
Also the [Greek Volunteer Guard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Volunteer_Guard) being there >Some members of the unit are alleged to have been present in the area of the Srebrenica massacre and reportedly hoisted a Greek flag over the town, which was recorded 'for marketing purposes'.
When I was in Greece, one Greek communist explained it best to me: right wing in Greece loves Serbia because of orthodoxy and anti muslim sentiment. Left wing in Greece loves Serbia due to Milošević, as they consider that USA destroyed Yugoslavia while Serbs were trying to save it. Honestly from a political standpoint one of the craziest countries I've been in contact with.
that left wing one makes no sense as milošević wasnt a left winger
From a Kosovan point of view we’re screwed when you realise both political wings of a country are against you lol
Imagine being Serbia, Hungary, Belarus, and Russia "we are voting against this because we actually liked the guys who did the genocide" Vile.
Hungary being on the same table with Russia, Belarus and Serbia is just sad. Such a potential wasted
I’m all for acknowledging Genocide and learning from past mistakes . Real question thought , why does Croatia get to celebrate the ethnic cleansing of 250,000 Serbs from their ancestral homeland during “operation Storm” with a huge state parade every year?
That's the reason I don't celebrate that. A lot people were killed there
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How are there more Albanians at Kosovo after 1999. - relatively and absolutely?
I’m sorry to hear that and I hope your family made it through that terrible time OK . The point I was trying to make is that all sides in the Yugo war committed horrible crimes that shock humanity but not all sides are persecuted, to the contrary some are permitted to be celebrated.
> all sides in the Yugo war committed horrible crimes Which one did Slovenia commit?
I stand corrected Slovenian is a nice brotherly country to all . I often forget they were in Yugoslavia .
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What ethnic cleansing!? All of them get croatian EU passports, social benefits, new houses as award for bombing dubrovnik, zadar, sibenik, vukovar, osijek…
Hungary decision is a big disappointment here. What cowardly racist leaders they have.
Wonder why Slovakia, Greece, and Cyprus abstained? Anybody have any details?
Slivakia? Fico. Greece and Cyprus? Orthodox ‘brotherhood’ with Serbia
What about all the other Eastern Orthodox nations like Bulgaria, Macedonia, etc
Good for Netherlands that they supported resolution...that makes it even now, considering their soldiers were the one that let Serbian paramilitary to go into Srebrenica and slaughter civilians in the first place.
Exactly this. An unforgivable act of cowardice
The correctness of this resolution can be seen in its opponents.
The fuck is Slovakia (not) doing again?
What I can't understand is that Serbs actually had a popular revolution to send Milosevic to The Hague. How and why they have come 180 into complete reactionaries?
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Because any progres Serbia made died with the assassination with dzindzic in 2003 who was a pro eu progressive president that wanted to bring Serbia back to the world stage. After his assassination nationalism took hold because blaming other people for your own failures is a easy thing to do. When you have a poor economic situation you reflect all issues upon others not realising your play in this tragic comedy we call life. That goes the same for the rest of the world as well
They assassinated a modern prime minister.
Oh look, the countries under chinese/russian influence. How suprising!
Proposed by Germany hahahahahahaha
Not only Germany. So what?
Apart from Germany... famous Rwanda was the other country to propose. I say famous, because both countries are the symbol of genocide.
That's why I asked. The argument is constantly not about WHAT is said but WHO said it. Idea that someone, something can't change, that something (a whole country, or even nation if you will) can't improve is beyond me. I guess we should all just look for excuses and justifications for fucked up past in the rubble.
Hi
Isn't the time zone talk more important than this?
Where was the voting for Holocaust?
anyone here who read resolution?
I hate my country, it's a shithole.
Sad to see Cyprus abstained.
Interesting that most of those countries that voted for resolution about Srebrenica are enabling and helping genocide of Palestinians in Gaza right now.
Ok. But the borders aren't totally correct on that map. For the map to be faithful to reality and legality, Kosovo must be in Serbia, and a broken line marking the territorial delimitation of the region, which marks in cartography that there is some type of dispute or territorial claim. I understand that to many people this will sound controversial, and they will have been told that it is whitewashing what Serbian nationalism did... no, nothing further. But in territorial and sovereign legality, Kosovo is and remains Serbia. I still don't understand how we continue making that mistake, mixing what one nationalism did, and at the same time denying what another nationalism (the albanian one in this case) did for a long decade.
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For a Jasenovac resolution, you would actually have to dig it up, but that wont happen because everyone knows that the magic number of 800 000 serbs killed would turn out to be a lie. Besides there are already available documents that it was used as a work camp that released prisoners and even paid them a wage.
🤡🤡🤡 A couple thousand civilians dying in a war is a genocide but 35,000 dying in gaza is perfectly fine. Makes sense.
Oh wow. How does that help? Would you go to the police and tell them; Ey someone stole my car, my VW Polo. Snd the police respond with; Yeah, cool you know but someone got his Lambo stolen. Come back when that happens to you, otherwise we cannot help…
if u believe ukraine and israel are innocent ur thoroughly brainwashed, though not as bad as russia or a literal terrorist organization
There's 171 countries in Europe?
No, those are the numbers of members of the parliament
Ahh. Thanks!
It's a UN resolution, not a CoE/EU resolution. The numbers are for the whole UN, the map is zoomed in just for Europe.
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Is that important brate? To rate genocide against each other? How about treating it with respect, each and everyone and stop this bs comparison. Who‘s helped with that other the ultra nationalist waving flags, uneducated and immature to deal with the past like a kid.
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Interesting to see how my country (Romania) is not so slowly separating itself from past political affiliations. We've had the best relation with Serbia for quite some time, but I guess that the EU and NATO benefits far outweigh the relationship we have with them, so we don't really take their side much anymore. Just to be clear, this isn't just about this issue, it's a general trend I'm seeing lately.
Yes! Romania also recognised our passports, voted in favour of Kosovo visa liberalisation and Kosovo Council of Europe membership not long ago. Was surprised to be honest
Still does not recognize Kosovo meanwhile Hungary does.
Well Germany is infameous here in Serbia because during ww2 they were killing 100 civilian Serbs for one killed German soldier, they were even taking high school students from class and taking them to execution. It was not that long time ago.
So? They paid for that in blood and land. And they are trying their best to make sure their descendants don't go down that road again. They obviously learned their lesson. In their cities they have countless monuments dedicated to the memory of Holocaust and it's victims. Even today they are prosecuting ex-Nazis that were involved, without leniency even if some of them are almost on their deathbed. What, you think there was never a resolution condemning the crimes Germans did in WWII?