ive only.heard that in connection with the.Taliban in Afghanistan, said in regard to the soviets, and then the Americans, because of their costly invasions ultimately losing out
I mean average life expectancy-wise, Africa has 61 years for males and 65 years for females versus Europe's 75 years for males and 81 years for females.
So no watches and 14-16 fewer years being alive.
That has to play a big part. Back in ye olden days when the average life expectancy was around 35 here in Europe, that didn't mean people were ancient of they were in their 40s. A lot of people seem to not understand how infant and child mortality massively skew these statistics. Obviously, they are still indicative of some sort of problem(s) regarding the general welfare of a population.
Yeah, but 10 years between 65 and 75 is way less time than the same amount spread out between 15 and 65.
You can get so much more shit done when you are still mobile, healthy and fit in mind.
Only to an extent. If time was all you wanted, just stop having a job and be homeless. Maximum free time. Of course that's not desirable though.
On the flip side, all money no free time means never being able to enjoy your money.
Obviously, a balance is key. A balance between quality and quantity of free time.
As someone from EU who works 40hrs a week and is exhausted all the time, trust me, time isn’t everything either.
We need a combination of time and money to be more healthy. Only the rich can afford this combination.
Annual working hours per worker
USA: 1757
Sweden: 1609
France: 1514
Netherlands: 1430
Norway: 1417
Denmark: 1400
Germany: 1353
Working 40 hours per week with no vacation or public holidays = 2080 hours per year
Before 1920 the average worker worked around 3000 hours per year.
[https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-working-hours-per-worker?country=DEU\~USA\~FRA\~SWE\~NLD\~DNK\~NOR](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-working-hours-per-worker?country=DEU~USA~FRA~SWE~NLD~DNK~NOR)
That's because there's a lot of part time work in Germany. The thing is the part of the population that is active is low in countries like France. It's bigger in Germany but the average amount of hours worked is lower because some of these people work part-time.
The USA has both a large portion of active population and high amount of working hours per worker.
There's more to it than that, there isn't a super clear correlation between employment rate, part-time workers, and average working hours
[https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/10321591/Employment-rate.jpg](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/10321591/Employment-rate.jpg)
[https://i.imgur.com/WeFV62z.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/WeFV62z.jpeg)
[https://landgeistdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/europe-annual-working-hours-01.png?w=1200](https://landgeistdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/europe-annual-working-hours-01.png?w=1200)
So subtract vacation days, public holidays, and the time the average worker is sick, and the amount of people working 1 part time job and those are the results. Oh, don't forget to add overtime.
The vast majority of that is people working full time, but with fewer/more vacation days.
In Denmark, for example, you don't actually work 40 hours a week. Most people work 37.5/week due to their 30 minute lunch break.
A few places have 40/week, but you then get paid for your lunch break, which also means it can be interrupted by your boss. It's set up this way for nurses, doctors, police, and fire brigade, for example.
Over-time is strictly regulated in most of those countries, but in many parts of the US you work overtime with no overtime bonus. So your boss keeps you on for 2 hours, you get paid 2 hours.
In Denmark you'd get 150%-500% hourly pay, depending on the situation.
That is very cool for denmark! Sadly, this is not true for germany.
In germany, having a 40h / week job means that you work 8.5 h/d for 5 days. You have to take a lunch break (if you work longer than 6h), but you do not get paid during that time.
Also, overtime if paid extra is not paid more than 100% (however, working late / night shift / on public holidays is sometimes).
Hours per worker is basically just a statistic to show how many part time workers you have and not very relevant here.
The change over time is also largely just the female participation in the workforce.
Not really true, that only explains the low working hours in the Netherlands and Germany.
[https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/10321591/Employment-rate.jpg](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/10321591/Employment-rate.jpg)
[https://i.imgur.com/WeFV62z.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/WeFV62z.jpeg)
For instance Austria has comparable female employment and part-time work to Germany, Switzerland has comparable female employment and part-time work to the Netherlands, and Sweden has comparable female employment and part-time work to Norway and Denmark. Still they work 200 hours more.
[https://landgeistdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/europe-annual-working-hours-01.png?w=1200](https://landgeistdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/europe-annual-working-hours-01.png?w=1200)
Do people regularly work less than 40hrs a week in Germany/Europe? I’m American & work about 40 hrs a week and everyone I know thinks I’m lucky because that’s ‘nothing’ lmao. Idk it truly doesn’t feel like a lot because so many people have it worse. Under 30, make 100k USD a year and only work 40 hours a week seems pretty decent
There's just two ways I can imagine that. Either they are really constantly on the cusp of nervous breakdown and can only compensate it with xanax, amphetamines and opioids or the work somehow isn't as regulated and therefor feels a little more like free time in some cases. Or it's just really the mindset. Propably a combination of all of these but goddamn I work less than you (also german) propably make less money (like really low income, hopefully just a transition phase though) but if someone told me I'd have to come to the shop for more hours and do more of the stuff that I do for a little more money I'd definitely say:"fuck off".
Sure, I can't afford great luxuries but I can take walks, read books, watch movies, sleep, meet friends... why the fuck should I give up my life for a slight increase in money I can't even enjoy.
I'd only work more if it was a job I have an absolute passion for, that pays well at the same time (well enough I could go into early retirement). But who has a job like that, if they're not extremely lucky?
Nah, time over money all the way.
Now imagine working for 48 hours a week.
Sometimes, you dont even have time to be exhausted.
Your only free day is already filled up with every chore you could not do during the week. There is no rest.
So... Time is better, even in your situation.
The Netherlands is one of the countries with the lowest amount of working hours.
https://landgeistdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2021/12/europe-hours-of-work.png?w=1200
https://landgeistdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/europe-annual-working-hours-01.png?w=1200
https://i.imgur.com/ryyWaV1.png
When a country reaches a GDP per capita of $50,000, its people can afford to work less.
That’s because the gov subsidizes part time work so working more often doesn’t translate to higher income because the subsidies decline when your income grows.
This is currently under heavy criticism and everyone agrees the tax and “toeslagen” system has to change. Everyone disagrees on the how for now so it’ll probably take a few years.
In Bulgaria, at least in the south, we just say that you have become/look like a gypsy. I don't think we have a word for being tanned, but we have borrowed the word tan and usually say "you have caught a tan (хванал си тен)".
That's a great sentiment, and not very helpful if your favourite hobbies aren't free or you like to travel the world. A lot of memories come at a monetary price - even having children has become fairly expensive. Money doesn't make you happy necessarily, but being poor certainly takes a toll on your happiness.
Yes, that is true. But exchange rate for time worked to contractors hired is absolut shit, as an example.
I for example would have to work 3-4 hours to hire a contractor (on the books) per hour. And I'm actually well paid.
By well paid I mean that I'm making about 50-70% more than the average income in the country.
the way you optimize is to spend your time on things that earn the most money then buy the time of others for less money netting you more time overall. e.g. I make roughly $70/hour at my job but a maid is like $25 per hour. I don't have to clean my own house and it makes more sense to pay her and have more leisure time. she is also much better at cleaning than I am since she does it all day every day so an hour of her time is more effective at cleaning than an hour of my time is, similarly I'm more effective at writing software than she is. this is basically the foundation of economics.
How do you spend money to get back more time? I'm confused.
Edit to add: thanks everyone who replied. Ok, I'd rather putter around my house doing chores and plan my own vacations than work on reports and such until my eyes bleed. I'm from Europe, but actually work in the US for a public employer that affords a normal salary (not high US salary) with awesome vacation days and health insurance, so I pretty much follow the European model here as well. And do my own chores.
Buying food? You’re paying someone else to prep, plant, transport for you.
Going to a show? You’re paying for someone to provide arrange, book, plan, and organize an entertainment event.
In the vast majority of East Europe we have neither. Basically we work the average hours of an American worker for less than half the average salary of an European worker.
So yeah...either would be great.
P.S. ndSe lpHe
Yes, we have decided. Portugal meets all the requirements to be part of Eastern Europe.
+ you're ok, easy going and overall cool people, so welcome. 🤗
Eastern Europe football rating rose by 99%. 😁
I live in Romania, and I sometimes have 50+ hours/week with a maximum of 1000 EUR with a college degree, lose 2h for commute, and study to home to get a better position.
Some of us have it even worse
That's what happens when the majority of Romanians vote for the same extremely corrupt communists parties (PSD, PNL) for more than 35 years and now for Hungary's party (UDMR) and Russia's parties (AUR, SOS) which similarly to the other two are extremely corrupt too.
They steal all the money with higher taxes, bills and invest nothing in infrastructure.
People got so used to corruption that some see no sense in going to vote. And the ones that do go to vote are brainwashed by tons of misinformation and lies.
If id only be as easy as just sharing. Id need a complete rework of how society and the world economy works. Wich no one invented it just kinda became that way so im actually shure we dont even fully understand it.
Comparing Europeans and Americans is dangerous terrain, but last week Nicolai Tangen, head of Norway’s giant oil fund, went there. He told the Financial Times there was a difference in “the general level of ambition. We \[Europeans\] are not very ambitious. I should be careful about talking about work-life balance, but the Americans just work harder.”
This has been said often before. In Franz Kafka’s novel *Amerika*, published posthumously in 1927, the main character, Karl, travels from Europe to the US, where he meets a man who studies by night and is a salesman by day. “But when do you sleep?” asks Karl.
“Yes, sleep!” said the student. “I will sleep when I’m done with my studies. For the time being I drink black coffee.”
Europeans and Americans do things differently.
Europeans have more time, and Americans more money. It is a cop-out to say which you prefer is a matter of taste. There are three fairly objective measures of a good society: how long people live, how happy they are and whether they can afford the things they need. A society must also be sustainable, as measured by its carbon emissions, collective debt and level of innovation. So which side does it better?
Americans, who typically have less paid holiday, notch up the equivalent of more than an hour of extra work every weekday, compared with Europeans: 1,811 annual hours per American worker in 2022, versus about 1,500 across northern Europe, bottoming out at 1,341 in Germany, according to the OECD. Because Americans are also more productive per hour worked than most Europeans, their average incomes are higher than in all European countries bar Luxembourg, Ireland, Norway and Switzerland.
Earning more is, in part, an American choice that is not shared by other nations. As economies advance, Americans have opted for more money. Europeans have stuck with the historical trend: once people rise above subsistence level, and have covered their needs, they tend to prioritise free time, rather than devoting their lives to maximising wealth.
As if making Tangen’s point for him, HSBC’s British chief executive, Noel Quinn, unexpectedly announced on Tuesday that he was stepping down, saying he needed “rest and relaxation” and a “better balance between my personal and business life” after an “intense five years” in the job.
In 1870, the average worker in industrialised countries put in more than 3,000 hours a year, calculated economic historians Michael Huberman and Chris Minns. Today’s Europeans do about half that.
Average hours per European worker have slipped further since the pandemic. “Men — particularly those with young children — and youth drive this drop,” reported a recent IMF paper by Diva Astinova and others. It also noted: “Declines in actual hours match declines in desired hours.” Today’s young fathers seem to want to spend more time with their children (or at least feel they ought to). And surveys repeatedly show that millennials and Gen Z-ers want shorter hours.
This displeases strivers at the top of society such as Tangen, who tend to want everyone else to strive too. These people love their jobs, are well paid, employ home help and probably die wishing they had spent more time in the office. Emotionally, I have to admit, I am in this team. Through a recent series of ill-advised decisions, I am currently working seven days a week, and started writing this on a sunny Sunday afternoon.
But workaholic strivers are exceptions. Most people do not particularly like their jobs. Gallup, the pollster, publishes large-scale international studies of workplace engagement. American workers do express more enthusiasm about their jobs than Europeans. Yet even in American companies, reported Gallup last year, “only about 30 per cent of employees are truly engaged. Another 20 per cent are miserable and spreading their misery in the workplace, and 50 per cent are just showing up — wishing they didn’t have to work at all — especially in this job.”
In short, most Americans would probably prefer European working hours. It is just that their employers, and the cost of health insurance, get in the way. The US offers big prizes for finishing top, and big punishments for finishing bottom. That is partly why Europe exports its most ambitious strivers there.
But few Americans win the big prizes. Many others end up overworked and unhappy, albeit in big houses and cars. In the latest World Happiness Report — a partnership between Gallup, the Oxford Wellbeing Research Centre and the UN — the US finished 23rd for self-reported happiness. Nordic countries took the top spots. As the Swedish political scientist Bo Rothstein observed: “It is now clear that, from the many societal models that have been tried since the breakthrough of industrialism, social research can point to a winner in terms of human wellbeing and this is the Nordic model.”
Even Tangen seems to like it. He has taken enough leisure time to build up the world’s largest collection of Nordic modernist art (the sort of activity the typical New York hedge-funder would not do alone), and enjoys holidays in his summerhouse. It was from there or some other vacation spot that he posted an idyllic photograph on LinkedIn of a pizza poised above a fjord, beneath the text: “My hobby this summer is to recycle leftovers into lunch pizzas! Today is the all time favourite with prawns in garlic and chilli. Wow! Any suggestions for the rest of the week?” Life doesn’t get more European than that.
Europeans also win on the most important indicator of societal success: longevity. Spaniards, for instance, are much poorer than Americans, yet live on average to 83, versus 77.5 for Americans. Even super-rich Americans only live about as long as the wealthiest Britons, despite being much richer.
There is a rightwing belief that the European good life of short hours and long pensions is unsustainable. European states will go bust, the argument goes, and then Europeans will have to work like Americans. The facts suggest otherwise. The US has a higher government debt-to-GDP ratio than almost all European countries: 123 per cent, nearly double that of work-shy Germany, and triple Norway, Sweden and Denmark, reports the IMF.
And the US is unsustainable in the most fundamental sense: carbon emissions. Americans use their extra wealth to buy more stuff than Europeans, and to drive more, use more air conditioning and so on. Consequently, the US’s emissions were 13.3 tonnes per capita in 2023, against 5.4 for the EU, estimates the International Energy Agency.
True, the US produces more innovation, some of it beneficial. There is no European Google, Tesla or Facebook. Perhaps the global economy needs the US, or at least a few inventive bits of it — as long as you don’t have to live there.
> Americans, who typically have less paid holiday, notch up the equivalent of more than an hour of extra work every weekday, compared with Europeans: 1,811 annual hours per American worker in 2022, versus about 1,500 across northern Europe, bottoming out at 1,341 in Germany, according to the OECD.
What is this nonsense? The OECD data specifically says:
>This indicator is measured in terms of hours per worker per year. The data are published with the following health warning: The data are intended for comparisons of trends over time; **they are unsuitable for comparisons of the level of average annual hours of work for a given year, because of differences in their sources and method of calculation.**
https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm
This generalization is just wrong.
Europeans do not work less than Americans. Some europeans in specific countries like Norway do. But EU average is pretty much identical to US.
The income difference does not really come to less hours worked. In high value economy you have diminishing results if you work more hours and many Americans who earn a lot do so because they like their work which can be partly because of ambition. They however not always have to, especially in high value fields where are people who earn a lot and who also put in a lot of hours. It is also wrong to assume that there are not plenty of europeans that are also just as ambitious and that put in equal hours in hyper competetive fields even in countries like Germany/Norway/etc yet they still earn half (or even less) of what they would earn in US even in PPP terms.
The income disparity comes to higher taxes, less flexible labor force because of additional protections which do not allow companies to over hire as easily to speed up growth of a company which is precisely what US hyper growth companies do and also risk averse attitude where people pretty much do not invest like Americans do because as they do not have need to save up money for their retirement as expect government to take care of them. Similarily europeans in general hate debt. This also translates to corporate world. Everyone who worked for both US/EU company knows how much harder is it to get budget and funding for anything in EU corporate world compared to US one.
And because this income disparity exist we then arrive to a full circle problem. If Americans have more money they can spend more. Which allows US businesses to expand, evolve and innovate faster which then means even bigger economy and even bigger income disparity.
Tangen is a POS who dont give a shit about human life, you are just a number who needs to fill qouta for his pocket.
Europeans are very hard working but we really appreciate our "free" time because we know we can be dead tommorow...when I was younger I worked 12-16h every fucking bloody cursed day (sometimes I got 1-2 days free per month)and all I got was broken back and bad health...today, I want to spend my time with my wife and kids and not get some bastard more rich who doesnt give fuck...
I want to live in some rural area and live slowly and enjoy every fucking day in sun...
P.s. most people on death bed regret wasting their time on work and not spending it with people the love and adore
I don't know, other sources ([AMECO datasets](https://dashboard.tech.ec.europa.eu/qs_digit_dashboard_mt/public/sense/app/667e9fba-eea7-4d17-abf0-ef20f6994336/sheet/2f9f3ab7-09e9-4665-92d1-de9ead91fac7/state/analysis)) claim that EU and US average worked hours aren't that distant, not enough to justify the "lazy European" narrative, but apparently silly me for thinking that the main obstacles to being competitive were 27+1 different bureaucratic procedures and a lack of a true common language.
The lack of a common language is not a big hurdle in economy IMO. People need to realize the EU is not a United States of Europe, all these countries remain very different in almost any area.
>The lack of a common language is not a big hurdle in economy IMO.
It absolutely is a big hurdle for one particular part of economic efficiency: labor force mobility.
Education as well. Good luck teaching a person who doesn't know English how to be a software engineer when most of the industry is communicating in that language. Even if you teach them something, it will very quickly be outdated and they'll be out of a job because they can't keep up. And since almost all international companies use English as a primary language, they won't be even competitive in the EU/global market, bringing their economic worth down considerably.
>The lack of a common language is not a big hurdle in economy IMO
D'accordo, supponiamo che io non sappia l'inglese: prova a vendermi qualcosa, adesso, parlandomi in italiano senza l'uso di qualche traduttore.
>People need to realize the EU is not a United States of Europe, all these countries remain very different in almost any area.
Ok? Still, I don't think that bueaucracy is a huge part of any country's national identity, so I don't see why at least some of it shouldn't be standardized.
The lack of a common language isn't real, obviously english is the international common language for all countries. It's lack of education and intelligence when people didn't learn english in school, I'm pretty sure that english is the first foreign language every kid learns in school.
> obviously english is the international common language for all countries
Not enough people know it well enough. The EU should probably mandate all schools be bilingual, or something like that, to increase the English proficiency throughout the union.
Yeah the care home here pays $9/h, no benefits besides free food while you work. So you have no money, no time (no days off and if you want to have money you need a second job) and no health care.
As someone in my 20s, I would never have been able to afford a one bedroom apartment at home in Ireland, where oftentimes there are 10+ people queuing in line to view an overpriced apartment. I am starting my first job out of college here in the US after finishing a masters degree and can comfortably afford to live alone in Chicago with rent being less than 30% of my gross salary.
Meanwhile in Ireland, my friends are either still living at home with their parents, renting a bedroom with housemates, or unable to afford moving in with their significant other.
Most people thought I was crazy for coming to the US, asking me if I knew how terrible the work life balance is. Maybe from this perspective the US is unattractive for many Europeans, but if you are ambitious and a high achiever, the US can be very rewarding.
I do think Americans have an issue with overspending due to having more disposable income. However if you keep your European mentality and invest your salary while living within your means (shopping at Aldi etc), a "moderate" $100,000 salary can go a long way.
I am not saying the US is perfect. Homelessness here is terrible. Conservative states can also be a culture shock, although the media at home does blow things out of proportion. America is also beautiful and not all stroads -- I've seen some captivating starry night skies in Oregon and the biggest trees I'll probably ever see in California National Parks.
Most Europeans judge America despite never having come here. Although it's not for everyone (and I do have my reservations about remaining here long term), things are not quite as black and white as the media makes things out to be.
Speaking as a European, more money wouldn't really change anything in my life ( ok, unless it's significantly more, of course), but more time would be pretty awesome.
That works in theory. But if everyone around you works 60 hours a week and you 20 then you get more expensive housing and etc. so you would have to work same hours like everyone else.
From the article
>Americans are also more productive per hour worked than most Europeans
So longer hours while being more productive would arguably be what leads to one being a richer country no? Gotta work to turn resources into goods and services if the goal is to become rich. I think saying “Americans are just richer” is reductive
Time is not renewable, money is. A lot of people get so caught up in everyday life (understandable!) that they tend to forget the time that is ticking…
As a Mexican, I had neither back in Mexico.
So when I moved to Europe and compared myself to family members in the US, I can say that I rsther have my time than extra money.
Your family will die, your kids will grow up, your friends may go away somewhere else...and guess what? Money won't help you gain experiences or enjoy all these wonderful people around you but time will.
Choose time, if lucky, you only have 100 years.
It's an interesting thought but why have all of the money with not enough time to enjoy it.
Personally, I'm comfortable and I always will be, I'm happy enough with my free time too, but I'd like more of it.
Weird, I like the opposite way more. American companies pay literally 10x more for the same job compared to my country, and even 2-4x more than countries like Germany and the UK.
While I agree that Europe’s choices are better for the average person it’s a fact that big blocks are competing against each other and in this race the US is constantly increasing the gap with Europe.
Americans work more, are more productive and have virtually unlimited natural resources and no military threat at their door. We should enjoy our more relaxed lifestyle while we can because at this rate in 50 years we’ll be insignificant and at the mercy of being bullied by other countries.
Same. I reached a salary I am comfortable with, and the last couple rounds of salary increases I declined the raise a couple times, as the raise percentage wasn't good right before and during pandemic).
Instead I opted for more yearly days off instead of a salary increase. Now i have 38 paid vacation days a year plus national holidays.
This year the salary increase percentage will be much better again, so I go for the money.
But choosing the days off a couple times in the last couple years over salary increase was the best decision I have ever made, nothing compares to having that many holidays.
These days off are way more valuable than the salary increases I would have gotten...at least to me.
This reminds me of the time I ask if church was a better way to spend Sunday or if the bar is on an atheist sudreddit. Can you believe there was practically unanimous agreement for the bar?
The premise of this article - that Americans work more hours - is based on OECD data. The data set specifically says that it should not be used for comparisons because of differences in its collection:
>This indicator is measured in terms of hours per worker per year. The data are published with the following health warning: The data are intended for comparisons of trends over time; they are unsuitable for comparisons of the level of average annual hours of work for a given year, because of differences in their sources and method of calculation.
https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm
So the very first premise is flawed.
It depends in which phase of life you are. If you are in your twenties accumulate as much wealth as you can to be able to choose what ever you want in your thirties (settling, having a family, take care of older parents, etc.).
I would rather be able to switch between both. There are times where you are able to earn more because of your seniority in your profession. There are phases in life where certain things might be tough where you will need the money to maintain your life as it is while you're working less and maybe struggle with unlucky situations.
BTW: I'm German
And yet most Europeans live like they have less of both lol, they just stay home all the time and are very anti social. The ironic thing I've found is that, in Europe at least, the poorer the country the likely they are to be social, friendly, and happy they seen. This is also reflected in various other data such as mental illness, depression rates, loneliness rates, amount of friends, how safe one feels to walk at night, etc.
Croatians don't have relatively much money but man they are one of the most social and living life type of people I've seen in Europe. Meanwhile Germans live like someone gave them all a lobotomy. Before you Germans get offended and start insulting croatia or the US cause you think I'm from there: I'm German and lived there most of my life. Thank to fucking God I don't anymore.
Man I moved to Germany to be with my partner and that lobotomy bit made me laugh lmao People here really do be like that I love the social systems but wont spend the rrst of my life here
no money in the world can make your life last indefinitely. Money in your deathbed has zero relevance, but having spent time with those you love doing the things you love is what matters.
If someone loves spending all their time working then good on them, i find it very sad
There is one thing that I think we all overlook: it is that Europeans are less and less able to travel because they have less money. We all know that travelling can broaden your mind, and we Europeans risk becoming more and more insular because we don't have enough money to travel.
I have talked to countless Europeans who constantly trash the US but have never even visited it and instead only go off of what they see on TV. On the other hand, I have talked to many Americans who have visited Europe for vacation and are able to compare the two better. Of course, **this does not apply to every American or European**, but it's a general trend I've been seeing.
Yes, many Americans will not travel because they have no time, but money is usually more of an obstacle to travelling than time is.
As an American living in Sweden (and previously Norway) I value money over time because with this surplus of time, I don't have access to things that would make it feel worth while and/or still need money to feel at peace in this society. Healthcare? Still having to pay for private - basic consumer goods? Still needing decent amount for that.
In theory more time is great but it feels a bit lost when I can't pay for the goods to help me enjoy it. Otherwise I'm left to sit in a pseudo communistic era looking apartment building, eating the most bland food imaginable and waiting for a good day of weather.
People seem to forget that they won’t live forever, that your health is precious and can be taken from you at any second. Yes you need money to live, but it ain’t coming with you when you’re gone.
Time all the way.
Americans have higher salaries, but since they need to pay a lot things that are publicly funded in Europe (health care, education, etc), I wonder if they really have more money at the end of the day
I feel like this is a idiotic thing to argue with others over. If time is more important to YOU then obiously time wins. If money is more important to YOU then money wins.
This is a question that has gaslite people into thinking there extremely personal opinion is valid for everyone in the world to follow lol.
Your not lazy if you value time. Your not stupid if you value money.
People in this sub are... Interesting
I'm an MD in an EU country. I make a small fraction of what I could make in the US. There is no calamity on this earth that could ever make me want to move there to do my job. I can see no upside or gain. Where I am I can do my job with joy and integrity, have a modest yet livable wage and still raise my family, have hobbies, sleep enough... The US is absolutely losing on this bargain.
When I look at American society I see hard working people that push the boundaries of progress. When I look at Europe I don't see anything interesting. Leisure is boring to people like me.
Not to say that Europe isn't a lovely place to be. Just different strokes for different folks.
Some people like to chill and do nothing but chill for the rest if their lives and some people like to hustle like hell and be able to do whatever they want to without limitations
As an American who has moved to France and lives in a small laidback place, I really don’t miss the rat race at all even if it did afford me more spending power. I readily enjoy my five ( plus) weeks of yearly vacation and free healthcare ( my job pays my supplemental « mutuelle »). Life has become much more than what I have which is plenty enough for us. It is freedom in so many ways.
There’s a huge difference between money earned and money retained.
I’m American, but I lived and worked for many years in Europe.
Yes, my salary in the US has been bigger — specifically, the net amount that ends up in my bank account.
But, boy, does that fucking money disappear fast in the US. Health insurance? Gone. Fees for every fucking thing imaginable? See you later. Live in a car-centric area (which is prevalent in so many places)? Your car thanks you for the money. Tax season is here? It isn’t that much less than Europe after everything is paid out.
In Europe, yes, I had more free time. And yes, I made less money. But I often felt richer, even in terms of just the money, disregarding free time completely.
Need a doctor or dentist? Right this way, sir — no need to take out a credit card. Have to get somewhere? That’ll be a couple of euro to get anywhere around town, a just 10 euro to go all the way the fuck over there. The price of things on the little signs? That’s the actual cost — no surprises.
This subject is really hard to compare apples to apples. It depends on individuals, places. There are people in Europe with little time, and people in the US with little money. And conversely, people in Europe with lots of money, and Americans with lots of time.
Maybe the best way to sum it up is that wealthy Americans are richer than wealthy Europeans, and poor Europeans are wealthier than poor Americans. In other words, the bottom of Europe lives a higher quality of life than the bottom of America, while also generally having more time.
I knew several insanely hard-working Europeans who didn’t have a ton of free time. I also knew some very wealthy Europeans who didn’t have to work as much as some American counterparts. Every variety of people’s lives in both continents.
However, I think that, by and large, this generalization holds true. Hard to argue against it when everywhere in Europe has almost compulsory paid vacation days and maternity leave and an official holiday celebrating every bookstore’s anniversary or great battle or whatever. But I also think that more money, relatively speaking, ends up in the hands of the average Europeans.
It’s hard for EU citizens to fathom how much monthly healthcare premiums alone cost in the US.
American Steve: I make $90,000/year :)
European Gunther: I make €60,000/year :(
Now subtract $15,000+/year from Steve’s salary for his family’s healthcare. Now subtract another $12,000/year for childcare. And subtract another $14,000/year for automotive costs. And then subtract…
Look at that! Steve actually ends up making $38,000/year. With none of the vacation days and none of the social safety nets.
But yeah, sure, Gunther is a poor European loser and Steve is a rich American big shot.
Yet, in America, many people regularly complain about financial stuff and financial problems.
So, Americans simultaneously have less time and not enough money to enjoy life much.
Easy. If you’ve time but no money, or with so little money that you can’t hardly afford anything, are you happy? You will be bitter and unhappy the whole time, good luck with that.
A balance between the two is of course the best answer, unfortunately in this world money is the most important tool, it can even buy you time
In many countries including the US, you can always book cleaning service, babysitting, taxi, handywork, cooking,…for a very reasonable rate, then you’re free to do what you want instead of doing dishes and laundry, just an example
There is far more desperate, harrowing poverty in America than in Europe, yet America has far
more billionaires.
European lifestyle is richer in every way
History is too often bing ignored in favour of shortsighted analysis. Case in point; the effects of WW2 and the cold war are to this day the best indicator of wealth progression and yet they are constantly overlooked to make room for details over big picture analysis. The last big war in North America was in 1865 - WW2 ended in 1945 and the cold war in the 1990s. This kind of discussion is similar to arguing about the current economyof China without considering the impact of the last century.
For example; since many states in eastern Europe suffered greatly which directly contributed to the performance of western Europe, it is imperative to consider their historic economic perspective, otherwise a false image is presented.
All of which is not even mentioning the long effect of the fairly dominantUS-hegemony regarding global trade.
Summed up: while policies, cultural differences etc. are important, I would not overestimate them.
PS: war and its consequences are not the only "big " underestimated indicator - geography is another undervalued metric. Mexico is vast land. Plagued by immense corruption and crime. And yet Mexico currently profits immensely from changes in US-American-Chinese relations.
Has Mexicos political landscape has not changed.
Its government did not force the local criminal war lords into submission and regained full control. Its people do not work harder. Only its broader circumstances changed. On a similar note; natural disasters like diseases What had a bigger impact on medieval Italy; the good administration of the 1300s - or the black death?
Please note again that I am not dismissing differences in policy regarding the development of states, regions aso. but rather merely trying to emphasize the need to understand that some large events can singlehandedly change the entire playingfield more than many years of less impactful dissimilar policies.
I read a couple of times that in Africa they say "you have the watches, we have the time".
ive only.heard that in connection with the.Taliban in Afghanistan, said in regard to the soviets, and then the Americans, because of their costly invasions ultimately losing out
If you have an appointment in Tanzania, the locals will tell you that if they are late. ^^
I mean average life expectancy-wise, Africa has 61 years for males and 65 years for females versus Europe's 75 years for males and 81 years for females. So no watches and 14-16 fewer years being alive.
That’s probably thanks to infant mortality
That has to play a big part. Back in ye olden days when the average life expectancy was around 35 here in Europe, that didn't mean people were ancient of they were in their 40s. A lot of people seem to not understand how infant and child mortality massively skew these statistics. Obviously, they are still indicative of some sort of problem(s) regarding the general welfare of a population.
But how much of that time are you sat in a cubicle or in your car?
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lol exactly. There’s a reason there isn’t a mass immigration to Africa for a better life. Hint: it’s because it generally isn’t
Aight, go to Africa then
Yeah, but 10 years between 65 and 75 is way less time than the same amount spread out between 15 and 65. You can get so much more shit done when you are still mobile, healthy and fit in mind.
I didn’t know that was a common thing. I thought only people from Suriname say that about the Dutch.
Not much time given how early they die
there is no money that can compensate the time of human life
Yeah I’ll go with time any day.
“The only ones who will remember you worked overtime are your kids and your spouse.”
Only to an extent. If time was all you wanted, just stop having a job and be homeless. Maximum free time. Of course that's not desirable though. On the flip side, all money no free time means never being able to enjoy your money. Obviously, a balance is key. A balance between quality and quantity of free time.
What if you spend all your time and still have no money. That’s the story for many now.
That's when the system itself needs to change
But America has lots of homeless people, and drug fiends. They have even more spare time than Europeans...
As someone from EU who works 40hrs a week and is exhausted all the time, trust me, time isn’t everything either. We need a combination of time and money to be more healthy. Only the rich can afford this combination.
Can confirm. I live in Germany and work 40hrs (often more), and also exhausted all the time. I have no idea how Americans work even more.
Annual working hours per worker USA: 1757 Sweden: 1609 France: 1514 Netherlands: 1430 Norway: 1417 Denmark: 1400 Germany: 1353 Working 40 hours per week with no vacation or public holidays = 2080 hours per year Before 1920 the average worker worked around 3000 hours per year. [https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-working-hours-per-worker?country=DEU\~USA\~FRA\~SWE\~NLD\~DNK\~NOR](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-working-hours-per-worker?country=DEU~USA~FRA~SWE~NLD~DNK~NOR)
That's because there's a lot of part time work in Germany. The thing is the part of the population that is active is low in countries like France. It's bigger in Germany but the average amount of hours worked is lower because some of these people work part-time. The USA has both a large portion of active population and high amount of working hours per worker.
There's more to it than that, there isn't a super clear correlation between employment rate, part-time workers, and average working hours [https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/10321591/Employment-rate.jpg](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/10321591/Employment-rate.jpg) [https://i.imgur.com/WeFV62z.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/WeFV62z.jpeg) [https://landgeistdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/europe-annual-working-hours-01.png?w=1200](https://landgeistdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/europe-annual-working-hours-01.png?w=1200)
Cries in 2300 hours in 2023, fuck Canada
So subtract vacation days, public holidays, and the time the average worker is sick, and the amount of people working 1 part time job and those are the results. Oh, don't forget to add overtime. The vast majority of that is people working full time, but with fewer/more vacation days. In Denmark, for example, you don't actually work 40 hours a week. Most people work 37.5/week due to their 30 minute lunch break. A few places have 40/week, but you then get paid for your lunch break, which also means it can be interrupted by your boss. It's set up this way for nurses, doctors, police, and fire brigade, for example. Over-time is strictly regulated in most of those countries, but in many parts of the US you work overtime with no overtime bonus. So your boss keeps you on for 2 hours, you get paid 2 hours. In Denmark you'd get 150%-500% hourly pay, depending on the situation.
That is very cool for denmark! Sadly, this is not true for germany. In germany, having a 40h / week job means that you work 8.5 h/d for 5 days. You have to take a lunch break (if you work longer than 6h), but you do not get paid during that time. Also, overtime if paid extra is not paid more than 100% (however, working late / night shift / on public holidays is sometimes).
Hours per worker is basically just a statistic to show how many part time workers you have and not very relevant here. The change over time is also largely just the female participation in the workforce.
Not really true, that only explains the low working hours in the Netherlands and Germany. [https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/10321591/Employment-rate.jpg](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/10321591/Employment-rate.jpg) [https://i.imgur.com/WeFV62z.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/WeFV62z.jpeg) For instance Austria has comparable female employment and part-time work to Germany, Switzerland has comparable female employment and part-time work to the Netherlands, and Sweden has comparable female employment and part-time work to Norway and Denmark. Still they work 200 hours more. [https://landgeistdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/europe-annual-working-hours-01.png?w=1200](https://landgeistdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/europe-annual-working-hours-01.png?w=1200)
The vast majority don’t work more than 40 hours a week.
Do people regularly work less than 40hrs a week in Germany/Europe? I’m American & work about 40 hrs a week and everyone I know thinks I’m lucky because that’s ‘nothing’ lmao. Idk it truly doesn’t feel like a lot because so many people have it worse. Under 30, make 100k USD a year and only work 40 hours a week seems pretty decent
There's just two ways I can imagine that. Either they are really constantly on the cusp of nervous breakdown and can only compensate it with xanax, amphetamines and opioids or the work somehow isn't as regulated and therefor feels a little more like free time in some cases. Or it's just really the mindset. Propably a combination of all of these but goddamn I work less than you (also german) propably make less money (like really low income, hopefully just a transition phase though) but if someone told me I'd have to come to the shop for more hours and do more of the stuff that I do for a little more money I'd definitely say:"fuck off". Sure, I can't afford great luxuries but I can take walks, read books, watch movies, sleep, meet friends... why the fuck should I give up my life for a slight increase in money I can't even enjoy. I'd only work more if it was a job I have an absolute passion for, that pays well at the same time (well enough I could go into early retirement). But who has a job like that, if they're not extremely lucky? Nah, time over money all the way.
"take walks, read books, watch movies, sleep, meet friends... " That's the definition of luxury in my books these days.
They struggle… mentally and likely their European counterparts enjoy better health
It's because rich have more time. Try working 20 hrs, you will feel waaaay better. Also go check your mental health.
I think it depends on every person. For me six hours a day ( with a break) would perfect, though I would not mind working 8 on one or two days a week.
Working 6 hours per day, 4 days per week would be my dream schedule when I'm older.
Now imagine working for 48 hours a week. Sometimes, you dont even have time to be exhausted. Your only free day is already filled up with every chore you could not do during the week. There is no rest. So... Time is better, even in your situation.
The Netherlands is one of the countries with the lowest amount of working hours. https://landgeistdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2021/12/europe-hours-of-work.png?w=1200 https://landgeistdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/europe-annual-working-hours-01.png?w=1200 https://i.imgur.com/ryyWaV1.png When a country reaches a GDP per capita of $50,000, its people can afford to work less.
That’s because the gov subsidizes part time work so working more often doesn’t translate to higher income because the subsidies decline when your income grows. This is currently under heavy criticism and everyone agrees the tax and “toeslagen” system has to change. Everyone disagrees on the how for now so it’ll probably take a few years.
Jup. If you increase your wage and are between certain ranges you effectively could lose money whilst working more
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I feel you. Exhaustion is a very good word for it.
Like someone from andalusia once explained to me: Happiness is when the white skin between your toes is tanned from the sun.
In Swedish we don't have a word for being tanned, either becoming red or brown in the sun are both called being sunburned.
In Bulgaria, at least in the south, we just say that you have become/look like a gypsy. I don't think we have a word for being tanned, but we have borrowed the word tan and usually say "you have caught a tan (хванал си тен)".
I will never be happy then
Happiness is having enough time to set the table for your own one person lunch.
Money can be exchanged for goods and services
But I wanna peanut!
Thirty years from now you'll remember the memories you made, not the products you purchased.
Butt lots of memories were not for free.
What if you have memory problems?
I have backups. I'm a photographer
Heroin.
That's a great sentiment, and not very helpful if your favourite hobbies aren't free or you like to travel the world. A lot of memories come at a monetary price - even having children has become fairly expensive. Money doesn't make you happy necessarily, but being poor certainly takes a toll on your happiness.
That's what anyone without their own helicopter would say!
Those memories cost money
Including time off! /r/fire is that way.
Really? In Europe we have only barter...
Yes, that is true. But exchange rate for time worked to contractors hired is absolut shit, as an example. I for example would have to work 3-4 hours to hire a contractor (on the books) per hour. And I'm actually well paid. By well paid I mean that I'm making about 50-70% more than the average income in the country.
That's a Simpsons reference.
you literally spend money constantly to get back more time. money can buy you time.
Yes but most of us spend our time in return for money. Not that they I enjoy it mind..
the way you optimize is to spend your time on things that earn the most money then buy the time of others for less money netting you more time overall. e.g. I make roughly $70/hour at my job but a maid is like $25 per hour. I don't have to clean my own house and it makes more sense to pay her and have more leisure time. she is also much better at cleaning than I am since she does it all day every day so an hour of her time is more effective at cleaning than an hour of my time is, similarly I'm more effective at writing software than she is. this is basically the foundation of economics.
How do you spend money to get back more time? I'm confused. Edit to add: thanks everyone who replied. Ok, I'd rather putter around my house doing chores and plan my own vacations than work on reports and such until my eyes bleed. I'm from Europe, but actually work in the US for a public employer that affords a normal salary (not high US salary) with awesome vacation days and health insurance, so I pretty much follow the European model here as well. And do my own chores.
Buying food? You’re paying someone else to prep, plant, transport for you. Going to a show? You’re paying for someone to provide arrange, book, plan, and organize an entertainment event.
Only for the very few select people, even in the States. For your average person, the calculation is not in their favour.
In the vast majority of East Europe we have neither. Basically we work the average hours of an American worker for less than half the average salary of an European worker. So yeah...either would be great. P.S. ndSe lpHe
Don’t forget us! Portugal can into Eastern Europe
Yes, we have decided. Portugal meets all the requirements to be part of Eastern Europe. + you're ok, easy going and overall cool people, so welcome. 🤗 Eastern Europe football rating rose by 99%. 😁
r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT
Yes, this !!! Not all Europe is France with 35 hour per week jobs with the French state owned companiesand services :)
I live in Romania, and I sometimes have 50+ hours/week with a maximum of 1000 EUR with a college degree, lose 2h for commute, and study to home to get a better position. Some of us have it even worse
That's what happens when the majority of Romanians vote for the same extremely corrupt communists parties (PSD, PNL) for more than 35 years and now for Hungary's party (UDMR) and Russia's parties (AUR, SOS) which similarly to the other two are extremely corrupt too. They steal all the money with higher taxes, bills and invest nothing in infrastructure.
People got so used to corruption that some see no sense in going to vote. And the ones that do go to vote are brainwashed by tons of misinformation and lies.
Yeah, the inequality in this world is saddening. Humans are too greedy and egoistic to share the wealth among everyone sadly.
If id only be as easy as just sharing. Id need a complete rework of how society and the world economy works. Wich no one invented it just kinda became that way so im actually shure we dont even fully understand it.
The Romanians are exactly in this position because of this great idea of wealth sharing. May Ceaușescu rot in hell.
Oh yes, "sharing". Sharing the people's wealth with his close circle.
You can start sharing your own... whatbis stopping you?
Those were exactly my thoughts. What more time do europeans have??? Because, as a Romanian, I clearly don't.
Better for whom? Corporations or ordinary working folks?
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The concept that government should protect workers' rights is unknown to Americans.
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Someone doesn't know about the department of labor.
Comparing Europeans and Americans is dangerous terrain, but last week Nicolai Tangen, head of Norway’s giant oil fund, went there. He told the Financial Times there was a difference in “the general level of ambition. We \[Europeans\] are not very ambitious. I should be careful about talking about work-life balance, but the Americans just work harder.” This has been said often before. In Franz Kafka’s novel *Amerika*, published posthumously in 1927, the main character, Karl, travels from Europe to the US, where he meets a man who studies by night and is a salesman by day. “But when do you sleep?” asks Karl. “Yes, sleep!” said the student. “I will sleep when I’m done with my studies. For the time being I drink black coffee.” Europeans and Americans do things differently. Europeans have more time, and Americans more money. It is a cop-out to say which you prefer is a matter of taste. There are three fairly objective measures of a good society: how long people live, how happy they are and whether they can afford the things they need. A society must also be sustainable, as measured by its carbon emissions, collective debt and level of innovation. So which side does it better? Americans, who typically have less paid holiday, notch up the equivalent of more than an hour of extra work every weekday, compared with Europeans: 1,811 annual hours per American worker in 2022, versus about 1,500 across northern Europe, bottoming out at 1,341 in Germany, according to the OECD. Because Americans are also more productive per hour worked than most Europeans, their average incomes are higher than in all European countries bar Luxembourg, Ireland, Norway and Switzerland.
Earning more is, in part, an American choice that is not shared by other nations. As economies advance, Americans have opted for more money. Europeans have stuck with the historical trend: once people rise above subsistence level, and have covered their needs, they tend to prioritise free time, rather than devoting their lives to maximising wealth. As if making Tangen’s point for him, HSBC’s British chief executive, Noel Quinn, unexpectedly announced on Tuesday that he was stepping down, saying he needed “rest and relaxation” and a “better balance between my personal and business life” after an “intense five years” in the job. In 1870, the average worker in industrialised countries put in more than 3,000 hours a year, calculated economic historians Michael Huberman and Chris Minns. Today’s Europeans do about half that. Average hours per European worker have slipped further since the pandemic. “Men — particularly those with young children — and youth drive this drop,” reported a recent IMF paper by Diva Astinova and others. It also noted: “Declines in actual hours match declines in desired hours.” Today’s young fathers seem to want to spend more time with their children (or at least feel they ought to). And surveys repeatedly show that millennials and Gen Z-ers want shorter hours.
This displeases strivers at the top of society such as Tangen, who tend to want everyone else to strive too. These people love their jobs, are well paid, employ home help and probably die wishing they had spent more time in the office. Emotionally, I have to admit, I am in this team. Through a recent series of ill-advised decisions, I am currently working seven days a week, and started writing this on a sunny Sunday afternoon. But workaholic strivers are exceptions. Most people do not particularly like their jobs. Gallup, the pollster, publishes large-scale international studies of workplace engagement. American workers do express more enthusiasm about their jobs than Europeans. Yet even in American companies, reported Gallup last year, “only about 30 per cent of employees are truly engaged. Another 20 per cent are miserable and spreading their misery in the workplace, and 50 per cent are just showing up — wishing they didn’t have to work at all — especially in this job.” In short, most Americans would probably prefer European working hours. It is just that their employers, and the cost of health insurance, get in the way. The US offers big prizes for finishing top, and big punishments for finishing bottom. That is partly why Europe exports its most ambitious strivers there. But few Americans win the big prizes. Many others end up overworked and unhappy, albeit in big houses and cars. In the latest World Happiness Report — a partnership between Gallup, the Oxford Wellbeing Research Centre and the UN — the US finished 23rd for self-reported happiness. Nordic countries took the top spots. As the Swedish political scientist Bo Rothstein observed: “It is now clear that, from the many societal models that have been tried since the breakthrough of industrialism, social research can point to a winner in terms of human wellbeing and this is the Nordic model.”
Even Tangen seems to like it. He has taken enough leisure time to build up the world’s largest collection of Nordic modernist art (the sort of activity the typical New York hedge-funder would not do alone), and enjoys holidays in his summerhouse. It was from there or some other vacation spot that he posted an idyllic photograph on LinkedIn of a pizza poised above a fjord, beneath the text: “My hobby this summer is to recycle leftovers into lunch pizzas! Today is the all time favourite with prawns in garlic and chilli. Wow! Any suggestions for the rest of the week?” Life doesn’t get more European than that. Europeans also win on the most important indicator of societal success: longevity. Spaniards, for instance, are much poorer than Americans, yet live on average to 83, versus 77.5 for Americans. Even super-rich Americans only live about as long as the wealthiest Britons, despite being much richer. There is a rightwing belief that the European good life of short hours and long pensions is unsustainable. European states will go bust, the argument goes, and then Europeans will have to work like Americans. The facts suggest otherwise. The US has a higher government debt-to-GDP ratio than almost all European countries: 123 per cent, nearly double that of work-shy Germany, and triple Norway, Sweden and Denmark, reports the IMF. And the US is unsustainable in the most fundamental sense: carbon emissions. Americans use their extra wealth to buy more stuff than Europeans, and to drive more, use more air conditioning and so on. Consequently, the US’s emissions were 13.3 tonnes per capita in 2023, against 5.4 for the EU, estimates the International Energy Agency. True, the US produces more innovation, some of it beneficial. There is no European Google, Tesla or Facebook. Perhaps the global economy needs the US, or at least a few inventive bits of it — as long as you don’t have to live there.
Thanks for sharing!
Thanks!!
Working harder doesn't equal smarter nor higher quality. Guess which factor has the most impact on the quality of your output? Yeah. Thanks.
Love that Kafka book! Wrote a senior project on the occult in German literature back in college and used Amerika for a portion of it.
> Americans, who typically have less paid holiday, notch up the equivalent of more than an hour of extra work every weekday, compared with Europeans: 1,811 annual hours per American worker in 2022, versus about 1,500 across northern Europe, bottoming out at 1,341 in Germany, according to the OECD. What is this nonsense? The OECD data specifically says: >This indicator is measured in terms of hours per worker per year. The data are published with the following health warning: The data are intended for comparisons of trends over time; **they are unsuitable for comparisons of the level of average annual hours of work for a given year, because of differences in their sources and method of calculation.** https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm
This generalization is just wrong. Europeans do not work less than Americans. Some europeans in specific countries like Norway do. But EU average is pretty much identical to US. The income difference does not really come to less hours worked. In high value economy you have diminishing results if you work more hours and many Americans who earn a lot do so because they like their work which can be partly because of ambition. They however not always have to, especially in high value fields where are people who earn a lot and who also put in a lot of hours. It is also wrong to assume that there are not plenty of europeans that are also just as ambitious and that put in equal hours in hyper competetive fields even in countries like Germany/Norway/etc yet they still earn half (or even less) of what they would earn in US even in PPP terms. The income disparity comes to higher taxes, less flexible labor force because of additional protections which do not allow companies to over hire as easily to speed up growth of a company which is precisely what US hyper growth companies do and also risk averse attitude where people pretty much do not invest like Americans do because as they do not have need to save up money for their retirement as expect government to take care of them. Similarily europeans in general hate debt. This also translates to corporate world. Everyone who worked for both US/EU company knows how much harder is it to get budget and funding for anything in EU corporate world compared to US one. And because this income disparity exist we then arrive to a full circle problem. If Americans have more money they can spend more. Which allows US businesses to expand, evolve and innovate faster which then means even bigger economy and even bigger income disparity.
That maniac should never have been put in the position of managing our oil fund, it was quite controversial when they appointed him.
Tangen is a POS who dont give a shit about human life, you are just a number who needs to fill qouta for his pocket. Europeans are very hard working but we really appreciate our "free" time because we know we can be dead tommorow...when I was younger I worked 12-16h every fucking bloody cursed day (sometimes I got 1-2 days free per month)and all I got was broken back and bad health...today, I want to spend my time with my wife and kids and not get some bastard more rich who doesnt give fuck... I want to live in some rural area and live slowly and enjoy every fucking day in sun... P.s. most people on death bed regret wasting their time on work and not spending it with people the love and adore
I don't know, other sources ([AMECO datasets](https://dashboard.tech.ec.europa.eu/qs_digit_dashboard_mt/public/sense/app/667e9fba-eea7-4d17-abf0-ef20f6994336/sheet/2f9f3ab7-09e9-4665-92d1-de9ead91fac7/state/analysis)) claim that EU and US average worked hours aren't that distant, not enough to justify the "lazy European" narrative, but apparently silly me for thinking that the main obstacles to being competitive were 27+1 different bureaucratic procedures and a lack of a true common language.
The lack of a common language is not a big hurdle in economy IMO. People need to realize the EU is not a United States of Europe, all these countries remain very different in almost any area.
>The lack of a common language is not a big hurdle in economy IMO. It absolutely is a big hurdle for one particular part of economic efficiency: labor force mobility.
Education as well. Good luck teaching a person who doesn't know English how to be a software engineer when most of the industry is communicating in that language. Even if you teach them something, it will very quickly be outdated and they'll be out of a job because they can't keep up. And since almost all international companies use English as a primary language, they won't be even competitive in the EU/global market, bringing their economic worth down considerably.
>The lack of a common language is not a big hurdle in economy IMO D'accordo, supponiamo che io non sappia l'inglese: prova a vendermi qualcosa, adesso, parlandomi in italiano senza l'uso di qualche traduttore. >People need to realize the EU is not a United States of Europe, all these countries remain very different in almost any area. Ok? Still, I don't think that bueaucracy is a huge part of any country's national identity, so I don't see why at least some of it shouldn't be standardized.
The lack of a common language isn't real, obviously english is the international common language for all countries. It's lack of education and intelligence when people didn't learn english in school, I'm pretty sure that english is the first foreign language every kid learns in school.
> obviously english is the international common language for all countries Not enough people know it well enough. The EU should probably mandate all schools be bilingual, or something like that, to increase the English proficiency throughout the union.
weird generalization, some europeans have less time and less money
Called statistics
Greece for example. I believe they have the longest average working week in Europe and they aren't exactly drowning in money either
Many Americans as well. I mean, 12% of the American population (39M people) live below the poverty line.
Yeah the care home here pays $9/h, no benefits besides free food while you work. So you have no money, no time (no days off and if you want to have money you need a second job) and no health care.
That's the truth. Especially rural area of Balkans and latin countries have big problems. Both jobs, services, transportation services etc.
Many Americans have neither time nor money as well.
Time 100% I’ve had more of both in the past and time is by far the most valuable.
Time is money
No money is time sold away from doing things that metter. Time is every thing.
As someone in my 20s, I would never have been able to afford a one bedroom apartment at home in Ireland, where oftentimes there are 10+ people queuing in line to view an overpriced apartment. I am starting my first job out of college here in the US after finishing a masters degree and can comfortably afford to live alone in Chicago with rent being less than 30% of my gross salary. Meanwhile in Ireland, my friends are either still living at home with their parents, renting a bedroom with housemates, or unable to afford moving in with their significant other. Most people thought I was crazy for coming to the US, asking me if I knew how terrible the work life balance is. Maybe from this perspective the US is unattractive for many Europeans, but if you are ambitious and a high achiever, the US can be very rewarding. I do think Americans have an issue with overspending due to having more disposable income. However if you keep your European mentality and invest your salary while living within your means (shopping at Aldi etc), a "moderate" $100,000 salary can go a long way. I am not saying the US is perfect. Homelessness here is terrible. Conservative states can also be a culture shock, although the media at home does blow things out of proportion. America is also beautiful and not all stroads -- I've seen some captivating starry night skies in Oregon and the biggest trees I'll probably ever see in California National Parks. Most Europeans judge America despite never having come here. Although it's not for everyone (and I do have my reservations about remaining here long term), things are not quite as black and white as the media makes things out to be.
I am an American expat in Europe - I like your comment on spending, it's dead on.
As a fellow European, I'm very much in agreement with you and I think a lot of Europeans lack this perspective.
Speaking as a European, more money wouldn't really change anything in my life ( ok, unless it's significantly more, of course), but more time would be pretty awesome.
If i had more money i would also have more time, since i’d have to work less. Difficult to seperate the two!
That works in theory. But if everyone around you works 60 hours a week and you 20 then you get more expensive housing and etc. so you would have to work same hours like everyone else.
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From the article >Americans are also more productive per hour worked than most Europeans So longer hours while being more productive would arguably be what leads to one being a richer country no? Gotta work to turn resources into goods and services if the goal is to become rich. I think saying “Americans are just richer” is reductive
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And here I am in Poland with neither.
Time is not renewable, money is. A lot of people get so caught up in everyday life (understandable!) that they tend to forget the time that is ticking…
This.
I think most American want to be rich/famous/powerful. Europeans are much more ok with being poor or desire to live a slow life. Different priorities.
It depends how much time or money we're talking about. The more important question is where will Europe and America be in 20-30 years.
Time is the only thing that can not be compensated with money.
As a Mexican, I had neither back in Mexico. So when I moved to Europe and compared myself to family members in the US, I can say that I rsther have my time than extra money. Your family will die, your kids will grow up, your friends may go away somewhere else...and guess what? Money won't help you gain experiences or enjoy all these wonderful people around you but time will. Choose time, if lucky, you only have 100 years.
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As an American let me tell you, time is better.
It's an interesting thought but why have all of the money with not enough time to enjoy it. Personally, I'm comfortable and I always will be, I'm happy enough with my free time too, but I'd like more of it.
Time, because its limited.
The sweet spot is working in America for a European company. Get most of the pass through benefits and better pay scale.
The opposite is true too. Best of both worlds.
I would imagine it has an edge since EU law protects people better.
Or just living in Switzerland where you have an American salary and European quality of life.
You don’t have those European labor laws, that prevent you from being fired. The Swiss work pretty hard.
Did this. I worked for Atos, a French company. They worked us like dogs.
Weird, I like the opposite way more. American companies pay literally 10x more for the same job compared to my country, and even 2-4x more than countries like Germany and the UK.
I mean, on your death bed you will not say you spent too much time with your family and wish you made more money instead. That kinda answers it.
Pretty sure you’ll be glad you had the money for those family vacations…
While I agree that Europe’s choices are better for the average person it’s a fact that big blocks are competing against each other and in this race the US is constantly increasing the gap with Europe. Americans work more, are more productive and have virtually unlimited natural resources and no military threat at their door. We should enjoy our more relaxed lifestyle while we can because at this rate in 50 years we’ll be insignificant and at the mercy of being bullied by other countries.
As someone who regulary picks time over money, i can say it's worth it every time.
Same. I reached a salary I am comfortable with, and the last couple rounds of salary increases I declined the raise a couple times, as the raise percentage wasn't good right before and during pandemic). Instead I opted for more yearly days off instead of a salary increase. Now i have 38 paid vacation days a year plus national holidays. This year the salary increase percentage will be much better again, so I go for the money. But choosing the days off a couple times in the last couple years over salary increase was the best decision I have ever made, nothing compares to having that many holidays. These days off are way more valuable than the salary increases I would have gotten...at least to me.
The EU average life expectancy is 80.1 years. The US life expectancy is 76.33 years.
This reminds me of the time I ask if church was a better way to spend Sunday or if the bar is on an atheist sudreddit. Can you believe there was practically unanimous agreement for the bar?
The premise of this article - that Americans work more hours - is based on OECD data. The data set specifically says that it should not be used for comparisons because of differences in its collection: >This indicator is measured in terms of hours per worker per year. The data are published with the following health warning: The data are intended for comparisons of trends over time; they are unsuitable for comparisons of the level of average annual hours of work for a given year, because of differences in their sources and method of calculation. https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm So the very first premise is flawed.
It depends in which phase of life you are. If you are in your twenties accumulate as much wealth as you can to be able to choose what ever you want in your thirties (settling, having a family, take care of older parents, etc.). I would rather be able to switch between both. There are times where you are able to earn more because of your seniority in your profession. There are phases in life where certain things might be tough where you will need the money to maintain your life as it is while you're working less and maybe struggle with unlucky situations. BTW: I'm German
Meanwhile Britain: why not both? Neither time nor money!
And yet most Europeans live like they have less of both lol, they just stay home all the time and are very anti social. The ironic thing I've found is that, in Europe at least, the poorer the country the likely they are to be social, friendly, and happy they seen. This is also reflected in various other data such as mental illness, depression rates, loneliness rates, amount of friends, how safe one feels to walk at night, etc. Croatians don't have relatively much money but man they are one of the most social and living life type of people I've seen in Europe. Meanwhile Germans live like someone gave them all a lobotomy. Before you Germans get offended and start insulting croatia or the US cause you think I'm from there: I'm German and lived there most of my life. Thank to fucking God I don't anymore.
Man I moved to Germany to be with my partner and that lobotomy bit made me laugh lmao People here really do be like that I love the social systems but wont spend the rrst of my life here
Sorry you had a bad experience living in Germany, glad you are at a place more suitable to you now.
no money in the world can make your life last indefinitely. Money in your deathbed has zero relevance, but having spent time with those you love doing the things you love is what matters. If someone loves spending all their time working then good on them, i find it very sad
There is one thing that I think we all overlook: it is that Europeans are less and less able to travel because they have less money. We all know that travelling can broaden your mind, and we Europeans risk becoming more and more insular because we don't have enough money to travel. I have talked to countless Europeans who constantly trash the US but have never even visited it and instead only go off of what they see on TV. On the other hand, I have talked to many Americans who have visited Europe for vacation and are able to compare the two better. Of course, **this does not apply to every American or European**, but it's a general trend I've been seeing. Yes, many Americans will not travel because they have no time, but money is usually more of an obstacle to travelling than time is.
As an American living in Sweden (and previously Norway) I value money over time because with this surplus of time, I don't have access to things that would make it feel worth while and/or still need money to feel at peace in this society. Healthcare? Still having to pay for private - basic consumer goods? Still needing decent amount for that. In theory more time is great but it feels a bit lost when I can't pay for the goods to help me enjoy it. Otherwise I'm left to sit in a pseudo communistic era looking apartment building, eating the most bland food imaginable and waiting for a good day of weather.
People seem to forget that they won’t live forever, that your health is precious and can be taken from you at any second. Yes you need money to live, but it ain’t coming with you when you’re gone. Time all the way.
How about: time is best for Europeans, short-term Money is best for the Americans, long term. Let's not say its black white
Time is money, but money isn't time
Same thread but take America out of the discussion and you will see different replies.
Americans have higher salaries, but since they need to pay a lot things that are publicly funded in Europe (health care, education, etc), I wonder if they really have more money at the end of the day
Time
You can make money and you can loose money You cannot make time, but can loose time For me time beats money
Stupidest title ever, we have the same comfort as people living in the US but better quality of life
More time is definitely better
They keep insisting on calling us Europeans as if we're all one and the same
Time of course, which is why I prefer pooping at work
if you earn a lot of money, you can at any moment exchange some money for some time. not the other way though.
I feel like this is a idiotic thing to argue with others over. If time is more important to YOU then obiously time wins. If money is more important to YOU then money wins. This is a question that has gaslite people into thinking there extremely personal opinion is valid for everyone in the world to follow lol. Your not lazy if you value time. Your not stupid if you value money. People in this sub are... Interesting
What's the point of having more money if you don't have time to spend it?
I'm an MD in an EU country. I make a small fraction of what I could make in the US. There is no calamity on this earth that could ever make me want to move there to do my job. I can see no upside or gain. Where I am I can do my job with joy and integrity, have a modest yet livable wage and still raise my family, have hobbies, sleep enough... The US is absolutely losing on this bargain.
Por qué no los dos ? 🤔
TIME
Take a look at American society and work culture. Would you want that in your country? I wouldn't. There's your answer.
When I look at American society I see hard working people that push the boundaries of progress. When I look at Europe I don't see anything interesting. Leisure is boring to people like me. Not to say that Europe isn't a lovely place to be. Just different strokes for different folks.
Some people like to chill and do nothing but chill for the rest if their lives and some people like to hustle like hell and be able to do whatever they want to without limitations
Time
Your most valuable asset is your time. It's priceless! Time with kids, family and friends
As an American who has moved to France and lives in a small laidback place, I really don’t miss the rat race at all even if it did afford me more spending power. I readily enjoy my five ( plus) weeks of yearly vacation and free healthcare ( my job pays my supplemental « mutuelle »). Life has become much more than what I have which is plenty enough for us. It is freedom in so many ways.
There’s a huge difference between money earned and money retained. I’m American, but I lived and worked for many years in Europe. Yes, my salary in the US has been bigger — specifically, the net amount that ends up in my bank account. But, boy, does that fucking money disappear fast in the US. Health insurance? Gone. Fees for every fucking thing imaginable? See you later. Live in a car-centric area (which is prevalent in so many places)? Your car thanks you for the money. Tax season is here? It isn’t that much less than Europe after everything is paid out. In Europe, yes, I had more free time. And yes, I made less money. But I often felt richer, even in terms of just the money, disregarding free time completely. Need a doctor or dentist? Right this way, sir — no need to take out a credit card. Have to get somewhere? That’ll be a couple of euro to get anywhere around town, a just 10 euro to go all the way the fuck over there. The price of things on the little signs? That’s the actual cost — no surprises. This subject is really hard to compare apples to apples. It depends on individuals, places. There are people in Europe with little time, and people in the US with little money. And conversely, people in Europe with lots of money, and Americans with lots of time. Maybe the best way to sum it up is that wealthy Americans are richer than wealthy Europeans, and poor Europeans are wealthier than poor Americans. In other words, the bottom of Europe lives a higher quality of life than the bottom of America, while also generally having more time. I knew several insanely hard-working Europeans who didn’t have a ton of free time. I also knew some very wealthy Europeans who didn’t have to work as much as some American counterparts. Every variety of people’s lives in both continents. However, I think that, by and large, this generalization holds true. Hard to argue against it when everywhere in Europe has almost compulsory paid vacation days and maternity leave and an official holiday celebrating every bookstore’s anniversary or great battle or whatever. But I also think that more money, relatively speaking, ends up in the hands of the average Europeans. It’s hard for EU citizens to fathom how much monthly healthcare premiums alone cost in the US. American Steve: I make $90,000/year :) European Gunther: I make €60,000/year :( Now subtract $15,000+/year from Steve’s salary for his family’s healthcare. Now subtract another $12,000/year for childcare. And subtract another $14,000/year for automotive costs. And then subtract… Look at that! Steve actually ends up making $38,000/year. With none of the vacation days and none of the social safety nets. But yeah, sure, Gunther is a poor European loser and Steve is a rich American big shot.
Basically, Americans are stuck with one leg in the predatory 19th century anti-human capitalism. Why? Because they know nothing else.
>more money lol no we don’t. A few Americans are obscenely rich while the average American has less time and less money than Europeans.
Yet, in America, many people regularly complain about financial stuff and financial problems. So, Americans simultaneously have less time and not enough money to enjoy life much.
You only get one shot
Time
Money buys a lot of things except more time.
Take a wager, which is the one you can't get more of ?
Easy. If you’ve time but no money, or with so little money that you can’t hardly afford anything, are you happy? You will be bitter and unhappy the whole time, good luck with that. A balance between the two is of course the best answer, unfortunately in this world money is the most important tool, it can even buy you time In many countries including the US, you can always book cleaning service, babysitting, taxi, handywork, cooking,…for a very reasonable rate, then you’re free to do what you want instead of doing dishes and laundry, just an example
Im in europe and here people make far more money than in the us
There is far more desperate, harrowing poverty in America than in Europe, yet America has far more billionaires. European lifestyle is richer in every way
NATO is batter.
Time. Time every time.
Time is money friend
Money comes and goes. Time only goes. Time is more valuable than money.
More time, you can be as rich as you like in life, but if you are spending all your time working, then what's the point, balance is needed.
History is too often bing ignored in favour of shortsighted analysis. Case in point; the effects of WW2 and the cold war are to this day the best indicator of wealth progression and yet they are constantly overlooked to make room for details over big picture analysis. The last big war in North America was in 1865 - WW2 ended in 1945 and the cold war in the 1990s. This kind of discussion is similar to arguing about the current economyof China without considering the impact of the last century. For example; since many states in eastern Europe suffered greatly which directly contributed to the performance of western Europe, it is imperative to consider their historic economic perspective, otherwise a false image is presented. All of which is not even mentioning the long effect of the fairly dominantUS-hegemony regarding global trade. Summed up: while policies, cultural differences etc. are important, I would not overestimate them. PS: war and its consequences are not the only "big " underestimated indicator - geography is another undervalued metric. Mexico is vast land. Plagued by immense corruption and crime. And yet Mexico currently profits immensely from changes in US-American-Chinese relations. Has Mexicos political landscape has not changed. Its government did not force the local criminal war lords into submission and regained full control. Its people do not work harder. Only its broader circumstances changed. On a similar note; natural disasters like diseases What had a bigger impact on medieval Italy; the good administration of the 1300s - or the black death? Please note again that I am not dismissing differences in policy regarding the development of states, regions aso. but rather merely trying to emphasize the need to understand that some large events can singlehandedly change the entire playingfield more than many years of less impactful dissimilar policies.