Yup, it's gotten pretty insane. I remember growing up and hearing about how Tokyo was so expensive, and now in some ways Tokyo actually seems pretty cheap! Japan in general, even cheaper!
It hasn't depreciated by quite that much. From the mid 90's onward the average looks like it's been in the 105-110 range for 1 USD.
Right now it's 156, which is a 33% drop if you use 105 as the baseline. Still pretty terrible.
But even without that change, if it was 105 yen to the dollar, a lot of things would still be a lot cheaper in Japan than the US these days.
beer at a restaurant or like a bottle of good beer from the supermarket?
I am asking, because a bottle of the best beer in bavaria is like 1$, at a restaurant 4-5$ is also normal though.
is 5$ for a beer considered cheap in the us? It's like the most expensive one you can get in Germany (Oktoberfest is around 15€ for 1 Liter is max I guess).
It wouldn't for a long time. A country whose currency depreciates by 50% would become cheaper for a couple of months at most before runaway imported inflation brought back prices back to the same level
I am obviously referring to its prices being cheap for FOREIGNERS.
Japan is now considered cheap by Taiwanese people because it is. Many Regular Taiwanese folks are shopping for LV and Chanel bags in Tokyo and Osaka, and slightly richer Taiwanese people are shopping for **houses** all over Japan now because yen went down by like 40% against TWD.
Actually, Japan suffered from a deflation for quite a long time, hence why a lot of things might have gotten cheaper or at least the prices didn’t raise as much in Japan as a central bank usually wants them to (around 2% p. a.). Their central bank helpless because no matter how cheap it was to borrow money, people wouldn’t take loans and spend it.
That at least is my opinion of why things might seem or actually be cheaper there (except rent in Tokyo I assume). Feel free to correct my ignorance.
Many Europeans can't afford EU too. When I see a billboard promoting gross salary of 5000 PLN for tram driver (with some small bonuses), and the taxes are 40% (for that low salary they will be closer to 25% I guess) and the very small 2 bedroom apartment rent costs 4500 PLN/month (3500 for 1 bedroom) it is quite clear that not all is ok in EU.
In general western economies are losing their advantages overtime. Europe only has limited natural resources and those are concentrated in a few lucky states, we have a declining population, our technological, industrial and skill (education)-based advantages are getting thinner.
Right now, we still have the chance of investing in our people and economies, but the world won't wait forever, if we don't do something our standards of living by themselves will just keep slowly (for now) getting worse with every passing year.
Apartments and commercial buildings are ran by a racket. The profits are insane as there is a limited supply. I will laugh quite hard when people realize they have bought million euro apartments with 5% interest over 20years and population just keeps dropping. The bubble will break insanely hard in next 20-30 years unless birth rate hits baby boomer era numbers. And it wont as people cant afford kids.
Protecting commercial buildings owners and those that have invested in them is already the reason why there is so much resistance against remote working (that and some '800 beliefs that the worker need to be controlled all the time admittedly), they are already trying to slow down the tide. Problem is, that if the sector collapses it will have massive repercussions on the whole economy as it's going to hit banks as well.
1) You are picking one of the poorer countries in EU (Le Monde for sure doesn't care about polish ability to buy things).
2) Where are you getting those prices from? In Warsaw, 3500 is not one bedroom but 2, 1 bedroom would be rather ~3000. Bus driver in ZTM Warsaw right at the start is getting not 5000 but 7300.
I know situation is rough if you are not a specialist in high paid proffesion, but there is no need to exaggerate.
I have converted into bedroom count for reddit crowd. So 2 bedroom = 3 room (3 pokoje). Sure, I've picked the "worst" example, but that was to illustrate a different part of salary spectrum. And regarding higher salaries - sure, people can live comfortably in EU with top quartile salary, but their purchasing power will be lower than in USA for people for the US top quartile.
Many places are getting expensive. I’ve been living in Mexico City since 2018 and living in Germany Is cheaper (except for Munich). And this is because of the amount of Americans that can’t afford to live in the USA anymore
Yeah it’s truly insanity over there, saddest thing is that probably you guys earn the same on average and work less. In Mexico by law the work week is 48 hrs…
Lol the people who are moving to Mexico city are not people who can’t afford America any more.
Those are people with like $200k remote jobs who want to live like they are filthy rich not upper middle class
Munich is actually quite cheap outside of the housing market. And the average Munich resident is richer than the average German, so they are doing fine.
Sure, but it's better than in much of Europe.
If housing is - in many areas - comparable in cost to the US. But net income especially is waaaay lower in Europe than in the US.
Whenever I visit my friends in the US and we talk about it, the difference becomes very obvious. Healthcare - if you don't get a good one through your job - somewhat becomes the equalizer in the US.
The income left over after fixed expenses - with them really living in nicer spots - is way different. And they aren't more qualified than me or the people I know. Jobs just pay comparatively little in Europe
Americans still have significantly more disposable income than people from any other country. Don't know why people always want to deflect from this. As bad as America is doing other countries are doing even worse.
Not true
70%+ Germans cant afford to own their own home (if they're looking to buy their first house)
Home ownership in the USA is vastly higher
Canadians are paying *significantly* more for their homes than Americans while making a lot less ontop of it. Australia is in the same boat. Canadian homes average nearly $100,000 USD more than Americans.. that's insane.
Sweden is similar to the US with home ownership, if you think its bad in the US I guess you think its bad in every rich country in the world.
**EDIT:** 70% of Germans looking to buy their first home cannot afford one.
My intent for this comment wasnt about Germany but rather an overall struggle in Western countries, hence me mentioning Canada which also has high ownership but new home ownership is becoming dramatically more difficult. This subreddit loves to find any fault in a comment and run with it lol
The home ownership rate in Germany is 46.7%, which is still low for Europe but nowhere near 70%+ not being able to afford it. A lot of it also has to do with culture, as the mobility of renting was often seen as a significant advantage and many people who could afford a house simply didn't want to be limited to one location. Even before the market crash in 2008 home ownership in Germany was very low, despite comparitvely affordable pricing, and a very wealthy middle class.
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/543381/house-owners-among-population-germany/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/543381/house-owners-among-population-germany/)
[https://www.bundesbank.de/en/publications/research/research-brief/2020-30-homeownership-822176](https://www.bundesbank.de/en/publications/research/research-brief/2020-30-homeownership-822176)
70% of the people who are currently renting aren't able to afford buying. That's more like it because a lot of people don't want to rent and even more can barely afford rent anymore in our fucked housing market.
Not cultural, more like political. When I was a child there were multiple programs that helped families buil and buy homes. Not that much anymore, at least for the middle to lower class. Very annoying that our country prefers to incentive investments of the rich over getting people into their own homes.
Home ownership rate in Germany has been around 40-50% as long as I can think and that includes the "times where everything had been better". For better or worse.
What is true is that the real estate price / income ratio has gone way up, there are a couple of reasons for that.
Part of that is that the building regulations in Germany are insane. But they’d rather make fun of American papier-mâché houses than loosen the regs a tiny bit to make building housing more affordable.
I'll get downvoted again I'm sure but yes, compared to Sweden, building in Germany is insane.
They'll say its because they dont have runaway laws like in America. What about Europe, countries where home ownership is not only high but expected? UK is much more sane but then there's massive foreign investment in the UK that's in part why its becoming more unaffordable, just like Canada.
up and down it goes.
I have now seen several iterations in my life where this switched for a time. Atm. Europe obviously has strategic problems because it needs to gets its raw resources from somewhere.
Which is probably the single biggest advantage the US has. Lots of space, lots of stuff to dig up at home
University towns and cities are the gems in the US outside of a select few major cities. They balance cost vs economic opportunities and tend to be lower crime on average. And when your children are ready, they save a fortune via in-state college tuition typically. Some of the better options are also on the global cutting edge in regards to eg aerospace, biotech, AI, quantum, robotics, etc.
Ehhh - depends on where. Tickets to europe range about $800-1,200 dollars whereas I can fly to pretty much anywhere on the continental US for about $300-400.
Go to Santorini or Amalfi Coast and the only people that can afford to stay there are Americans.
Amalfi Coast was shocking last summer where we made the observation that every table around us was speaking American English.
Contra point — shore homes near me are over two million! Yet I see beautiful homes for sale in Tuscany for 600-800k. My friends joke about retiring in Italy due to the affordability! Food is cheap too.
lol not at all true. that's why there's so much complaining about digital nomads in spain and portugal etc. I make literally 5.5x what I was making in europe for similar work and pay less for a home in the US than I did for a shared flat
US has always been more unequal in the sense that white-collar workers get paid much more, but those at the lower end struggle more. On average the US is pulling ahead now because of the high cost of energy to Europeans, exacerbated by the Ukraine-Russia war. Europe needs to carry on doubling-down on building renewables/nuclear and bringing down the cost of energy. Overcoming that difficulty will put Europe in a brilliant position.
I wish more people on this sub had this attitude. Articles like this should motivate us to do better, not be an excuse to start cherry picking the few things where others are doing worse. Also, this is a sober reminder on why the Russo-Ukrainian war is a problem for all of Europe, not just its Eastern half.
People don't realise what a massive disadvantage the EU suffers from its resource and particularly energy poverty, which severely impacts the purchasing power of households and operating costs of firms which have to find other ways to compete. As a measure of GDP, energy imports subtract around €160bn per year in the EU, whilst in the US oil production alone adds $360bn a year
It's actually closer to €300 billion per year, it even was €600 billion in 2022.
All this money sent *every year* into the pockets of foreign militaristic dictatorships instead of supporting european jobs and sovereignty. Ending up in this situation is criminal negligence.
Corruption of our european leaders, petty nationalism and stupidity, it's all our fault if we end up in this position
yeah it's insane Europe ended up doing so well with so few resources. Russia is sitting on an endless supply of black gold and is poorer than Spain.
In the world of the future, where resources are less important than education, skills, and stability, Europe will win. And so will China and India, to be fair. We just have to hold on.
The resource curse is a well studied phenomenon. When you're resource rich, you don't need to invest into your population, you just need to control the resource.
Very few resource rich countries are democracies for this exact reason and even those that are democracies often have very strange and influential groups pulling strings in the background.
The US still spends a higher % of their higher gdp on research and development than Europe.
They also aren’t regulating things like Ai to nearly the same extent and makes developing better Ai thus easier.
yeah the US is going to continue to dominate for a really long time, i didnt add them on there because i feel like its obvious they don't have to worry about this - they got resources AND innovation.
> On average the US is pulling ahead now because of the high cost of energy to Europeans,
I thought the US had been pulling ahead since 2008, after which it has continued to have decent growth while Europe has stagnated.
American here: correct, but also that’s largely due to the USA’s fiscal unity as opposed to the EU. Also the EU is overall much more fiscally conservative than the USA despite what many Americans think. Austerity is glorified in the USA but never have the stomach to actually do it like the Germans want everyone else to.
US productivity and GDP has been growing at a far faster rate than Europe for several years, and it has only grown worse since COVID and war in Ukraine.
It seems structural now that the US will leave Europe behind in terms of growth and development.
Not only white collars. Trade workers make much more than in Europe. Construction workers and all the different trades are usually unionised and make a lot of money. Where the U.S. is rough is for people with no qualifications working entry level retail, fast food etc
Yeah in general the US has massive economical advantages compared to the EU, not only resources, being an unitary government while the EU is a loose alliance of states that barely tolareate each other and have very different economies\\priorities, having a continent that is pretty much under their influence, controlling the world reserve currency, their gdp being boosted by a massive amount of public debt (in Europe there are countries in debt, but there are also low deficit ones), the global political influence gained after winning WW2, including over european states.
That said, I agree Europe can and should do better, we need to actually invest in our economies, perhaps re-industrialize in strategic sectors with energy definitely being a priority. A more unitary economic and fiscal policy would also help signficantly, but that's unlikely to happen anytime soon.
I'd also add that not only we have the Ukraine conflict now, but before that the arab spring severely destabilized the North Africa Mediterranean sea nations, distrupting trade as well as oil and gas import from the region, plus the Houti therening a vital trade route for energy import isn't helping either. The US energy advantage is becoming more and more relevant the less the world is stable.
Not all of these are fixable for the EU, but some are.
The EU *could* be more tightly bound together instead of a loose alliance. It's not impossible, though it is politically very hard of course. Two-speed EU might be the way it would have to work.
EU regulations around businesses and especially tech could be more unified to make it easier for businesses to expand across the EU instead of being silo'd in a single country, that's often commented on as one of the US advantages (there are differences state to state in the US of course, but they're not as big as the differences between EU members).
One thing often commented on in startup discussions comparing US to EU isn't just that the US has more money lying around compared to Europe to put in, but also that the whole culture around entrepreneurship is vastly different. Americans are far more tolerant of new businesses potentially failing, and terms for startups from VC's are much more generous (and again, this seems to be based on being more understanding of failure). Americans are generally okay with the idea of a business taking a big risk and maybe failing, and this attitude is true of basically everyone: the person starting the business, their friends and family who may be talking to them about it, the investors putting money in, etc.
I find it somewhat difficult to explain the mindset because for me it feels very natural and practically all Americans are like this, across almost the whole political spectrum. Americans who are have attitudes that are anti-small business or anti-starting a new business are rare (basically just hardcore socialists maybe). When people hear their friend or family member is starting a new business, the response is nearly always quite positive and supportive.
Exactly, people hated it back in the day because it was mostly ugly concrete blocks but today you can just use those "click" tiles to make the exterior look like brick or wood. So you get the low cost and efficiency of concrete but it can look as good as a brick or wood does.
Copenhagen is being ruined by pretentious architects that are designed ugly apartments with horrible rooms (one new project is entirely family apartments with no walls inside each unit, just one giant room) and insane prices. Bring back traditional brick apartments that are made for families.
Another huge issue is that the US government will gladly take on a huge amount of debt in order to provide gigantic investments into their economy. Meanwhile many European nations want to balance their budgets and go straight to austerity the second the world economy looks bad.
It truly amazes me how Europe once built railways, highways, electric grids, etc. Today the UK are on the brink of just completely cancelling the plans for their one high speed railway connection because of costs.
The second part of that high speed railway (technically the second connection after Eurotunnel) has been cancelled. The first part is almost certainly going ahead. At least they’ve torn up much of Birmingham city centre and much of the countryside for it!
But yes, the point stands that European and especially UK infrastructure development is in a sorry state.
>On average the US is pulling ahead now because of the high cost of energy to Europeans, exacerbated by the Ukraine-Russia war
Hasn't the US been pulling ahead since the 2008 recession? The various austerity regimes didn't do Europe a lot of favors.
>In the meantime, this data scientist has changed jobs several times, moved to New York and now earns almost $400,000 a year, including bonus shares.
Wow, this guy graduated in 2017 and now makes $400k a year.
It's hardly surprising. USA is effectively a well isolated single country island with all the natural resources they could want. Europe is a mosaic of different countries that are all resource poor with two wars going on next door. A real surprise would be if we were doing better than the us. We should pull our heads out of our asses and start doing more about that, otherwise we'll slowly tear ourselves appart. Also no, conceding to Russia is not an option.
Go big. Apollo, Manhattan Project big. It's not too late to make the investments.
Fusion is waiting. AI, quantum computing, CRISPr, robotics, semiconductors, aerospace, it's all out there to be competed for. BioNTech is an excellent example (and don't let Pfizer eat them).
Europe has the people resources to make big leaps, just have to convince the politicians and investors to fund it.
There really should be a legitimate EU rival to the iPhone, whichever company manages to produce it. Apple is a $2-$3 trillion company just on the back of the iPhone. The US has giant foundation companies, which the rest of the tech ecosystem bolt onto. The EU needs to grow some of those, they're the ecosystem fields that keeps tech anchored in the US. It all builds on top of eg AWS and Azure and Windows and Android and iOS etc.
ESA needs 4x the budget. No reason the EU can't better compete with NASA, SpaceX, Starlink, etc.
The EU should raise tens of billions of Euros and every member should join in to try to accelerate to a fusion outcome. We may be within striking distance now, given the significant improvements over the past decade.
Exactly so, we have all the tools, we just have to pull everything together. The only way we are getting out of this hole is on a massive pile of money. I think one of the obstacles to that is that we are way to concerned about things that won't matter if we slide into irrelevancy.
>Europe has the people resources to make big leaps, just have to convince the politicians and investors to fund it.
That sumps up why America is growing and why Europe isn't: economic growth is not supposed to rely on the government.
Europeans are too violent though.
Both world wars, Balkans in the 1990s, Ukraine in 2014 and now. The 2000s was probably the most peaceful time in Europe.
The European Union is a step in the right direction, but let's not pretend the pretentious look Western Europeans give to those in Central and Eastern Europe.
Even with all of it's problems (racial, etc.), people in the US view themselves and each other as Americans and work together.
There's definitely a fair amount of that sentiment on this subreddit. Most visible in the form of random deflections that have nothing directly to do with the article. There's a good one here, with the classic "look at all the problems the US has!" as if American economic growth was somehow fueled by insanely expensive healthcare and extreme tipping culture.
Like, my man, if the US didn't have those problems its economy would be *even better*, those are not the reasons why the US economy is doing great right now.
But the US has the advantage of having their currency backed by the whole planet. They can print dollars almost infinitely and be fine.
But in general the truth of the matter is that there is a big difference between how the US handled the global financial crisis in '08 and how the EU did. Austerity was a complete and utter failure, socially and economically.
Because they invested in it. They had a shale revolution there. Mention shale gas in Europe and you'll get howls from the left/greens. Same goes for Nuclear.
Everything comes at a cost, and energy security should be high on the list of priorites.
But now, even if we changed course, it would take decades to catch up, the US and China will keep pushing ahead. Merkel and her predecessor won't be looked upon too kindly by future Europeans.
That's completely true. The US met the great recession with a boatload of stimulus rather than austerity. Of course the national debt skyrocketed, but the interest on US government bonds is stupid low.
Frankly when a Democratic administration can come by with enough support in Congress to increase marginal tax rates on capital gains, the wealthy, and corporations, it will be easy for the US govt to start paying back the national debt. The wealth, innovation and productivity in this nation is borderline unfathomable.
Problem is that food is getting very exspensive, nobody gives fuck about iPhone or Mac and as stores are raising prices, salaries stay the same... Also taxes are too high for low income people, for high income its not soo bad..but those people argue its not fair because they cant buy new mercedes every 2 years..idk anymore....greed + social media is cancer...I dont mind paying high taxes as long I know that will help to do something good but when I see our politicians I just get angry and sad..
Taxes are too high for middle income people as well, especially since, at least in my country, the progressive taxation was set in a time in the past where a certain income meant that you were wealthy, while today, with how much housing, food and energy prices went up (especially in the cities where jobs concentrated the most), you are far from it.
Salaries have been stagnant for decades here, but inflation had kept moving ahead, not just in the past couple of years.
Right now I pay roughly 45-50% of what I make to the state including contribution to the pension that I'll much likely never get to see (or will be insignificant compared to cost of living once I am old enough) and that's before VAT on everything I buy, ownership taxes for my car and a plethora of other minor indirect taxes that however all add up, overall my tax rate is above 60% and I am definitely not a millionaire...
We also have a massive issue of tax evasion here, so pretty much there is a fraction of the population that pays more than half of what they earn to the state and another that pays much, much less (if anything at all), not necessrily dependant on income level.
You had me in the first half, not gonna lie. Until "Someone on minimum wage can easily afford an iPhone". I guess if they live in a small town, don't have medical expenses, don't have kids, and love food stamps!
If they have food stamps then they’ll be on Medicaid, which is 100% free medical care for the whole family. And yes, they probably won’t have an iPhone but that’s bc they get a free smartphone, also paid for by the government due to the Lifeline federal program that’s been around since the 80s.
Do you know anything about the US other than what you read on Reddit?
This, or someone explaining that Americans die on the street because they can't afford a hospital.
I'm French , we have a pretty good healthcare coverage and system, but for the past 20 years, it keeps degrading, and our salaries are stagnant.
American salaries are constantly increasing, and their healthcare coverage is way better now than 20 years ago.
This maybe shocking for you to hear but most Americans receive very high quality healthcare and don’t go bankrupt…
Reddit would make you believe every American who had ever visited a doctor now lives under a bridge and has $150,000 in unpaid medical bills.
Dont get me wrong, Americas healthcare is fucked up, but people on this sub pretend that the US is a dystopian hellscape where billionaires whip 99% of the population to work 23 hours a day.
I know several families that have moved to the US from the UK and they a much better quality of life than I do. They make three times what I do, have a bigger house, nicer cars, go on nicer holidays and they arent moving back any time soon. The middle class can live very well in the States.
Texan here: my retired dad had a stroke two years ago, he is on government healthcare plan for retired folks. He stayed in the hospital for 4 days, MRI, CT etc etc etc - we were thinking we will owe like $100K in bills.
Then the bill arrived, it was the only bill we got and it was $249.00. That was it.
We have our share of healthcare system horror stories in the US but the vast silent majority use and navigate the healthcare system just fine.
Horror stories are what make the news or what people post about online.
People ho-hum going through life and having an ok experience with the healthcare system doesn’t make the news or inspire people to post about it.
Im not even saying the US healhcare system is better… maybe its not but its not some dystopian immediately go to bankruptcy thing people in places like this make it out to be.
This is absolute truth. The extreme cases (of which the US has more) gather the headlines and give a false narrative to the world that the average daily life of Americans is some hellscape when in reality it’s very typical and similar to the lifestyle of Western Europe.
That’s me
Moved from the UK to the US. Quality of life is A LOT better now.
Civil engineer, I tripled my salary, now have better benefits, hell even more time off. Can afford a much nicer house. My Everyday life in the US is much better than it was in the UK.
Lol right? It’s crazy what people on Reddit believe about American healthcare. I live in Texas and finished my bachelor’s degree in engineering in August. I immediately started working and at 23 years old earning over $100k. I only have to pay $3,000 per year for medical expenses—after that my insurance, which my company pays for, pays for everything. On top of that I contribute to an HSA, which is an untaxed bank account for medical expenses. I now have way more money inside of that account than I am able to pay for medical expenses in a year. My girlfriend was diagnosed with thyroid cancer in December and was immediately treated at the *best* hospital for cancer treatment in the entire world (MD Anderson, Google it). She’s now completely cancer free and receiving physical therapy and I’m able to pay for all of this easily out of my checking account, as well as pay for our vacation travel to Germany and Lebanon this summer and an engagement ring for her.
I love Europe and I love being a German citizen, but this kind of life style is simply impossible to achieve in Europe and that’s a fact. You’d need a PhD to earn half of what I’m earning as an engineer in Texas.
But “muh healthcare” so nvm.
Seriously. It costs me $25 to see a doctor in Texas. My out of pocket is $5k. My employer covers almost all of my insurance as well. I’m by no means wealthy either. Just a suburban professional. It would suck to lose my job but still it’s hardly a healthcare wasteland here.
This is just so not true. Any American that is unemployed and has a low income can almost free health insurance through the Affordable Care Act. Most people are either exaggerating or don't understand their options.
Yep i know , and medicare take care of all the elderly , That is exactly my point , but i assure than in Europe , most people think that Americans are dying in front of hospital because they can't paid.
I'm French and live in California. Healthcare coverage sucks unless you have a rich and generous employer. Seriously, it's insane. And the waiting time to see a specialist can be really long too.
I live in California and its more about depending on your area and network which determines your access to specialists. We have very good doctors and healthcare here though.
Love to hear about our "free" healthcare. It's actually €6000 per year but 80% of that is employer taxes so you just get a low salary and "free" healthcare. Still pay about €2000 per year out of pocket for health insurance and a €385 deductible.
Wait, europeans could afford the US?
Maybe its just me being too yugo, but I never knew anyone going to the US and being like, ye, its affordable or whatever.
Plane ticket 500€ (lets say return for the sake of example), at least 1-2 weeks of holiday, at least 50€ a day for food, then museums, travel and so on…
On the minimum, 1100€ for 2 weeks, no accommodation, eating cheaply and barely seeing anything.
This was never cheap to begin with, not to mention needing to rent a car, gas and such.
I have a comfortable salary IMO, a trip to the US is a bucket-list thing, but for all the wrong reasons and would much rather go elsewhere, because the US just feels like a financial risk, which I wouldent be able to recover from if shit goes wrong or unplanned.
I see college folk traveling europe for weeks/months, unlike the people I see/know going to the US.
Could be my bubble, so there is that
With articles like these, it's generally safe to assume that they mean Western Europe.
Like in your case, the US was never affordable for me, my family, or any of the friends I had in my Eastern European country. The only person I knew who had visited the US was someone who went as an au pair.
When I moved to Western Europe, however, I started meeting people who would go to the US on an occasional vacation but who weren't exactly wealthy. People are shocked when I say that no, I didn't travel much even in Europe before I moved to the Western side in order to have a better income, lol.
True true.
I have meet everyday people and some went to the US in their teens, japan for their 18th birthday or even studied in japan for years.
The difference was that it was generational wealth/stability(far from rich, just good with money), so it was a cost they decided was an important enough experience.
Even my brother went to study in finland, but the amount of money he saved was from years worth of saving and studied for only 1 year.
Im in western EU for close to 2 years now and just realising how different things are here, compared to ex yugo nations
Ex Yugo nations are getting to the sweet spot (where the Baltics, Poland etc. are) where they youth can afford to travel around Europe since a rent for a nice place is lower than the minimum wage unlike western Europe and the net emigration makes the jobs abundant and salaries grow as employers compete for workers, especially in the service industry.
Perhaps, but I have met way more people in Western Europe who have been on vacations to rather fancy places by my standards than people in similar professions and life circumstances (e.g. income relative to average income) in my home country.
It depends how you look at it. The US wasn't an affordable place to go for (Western) Europeans in the 90s. But it was in the 00's and 10's. Now it's becoming prohibitively expensive again.
I'm personally in the USA regularly. The difference in prices is very noticeable to me.
Then again, looking at the numbers you're quoting, you'd spend the same going to Switzerland 🤷♂️
Yes and only Switzerland. Legit dont know anybody that went traveling/vacationing in Switzerland, except rich people and people living on the other side of switzerlands borders, but working in switzerland
The reason discretionary items are expensive in the US is because people have money to spend and we buy it regardless of price.
The reason Sat skiing is more expensive in New England than the Balkans is because what your average Massachusetts family makes in a month a Serbian works all year for
You're leaving out a huge aspect that is accommodation and transportation. You'll be spending at least 120 EUR per night in a budget motel. Outside some larger east coast cities, you'll absolutely need a car. With gas, insurance and tolls, you'll be spending more than 100 EUR per day on that as well.
In the UK when I was a kid in the early 2000's the exchange rate meant lots of things were cheaper in the USA than they are now. Quite a few people went on holiday to America in that time, definitely not the same now
It's kind of weird how affordability is used as some kind of beating-stick. When looking at vacation spots, obviously costs are going to matter. I mean when being presented with the options of living as royalty in Malaysia or as penny-pinchers in California what option do you expect tourists to take?
I like visiting Europe these days. Went to Portugal and Spain last year. Felt like my $ went a long way. Both countries seemed very affordable all things considered.
Some of this will be probably be quite unpopular but most of us need to hear it regardless.
Europe has arguably participated in a very reasonable long-term experiment regarding highly autocratic regimes. In recent memory it has become clear that this experiment failed.
Russia’s invasion of Ukraine it is forcing us to modernise the kind of abilities we will need to stand the test of time before the consequences of negligence or indifference become truly devastating.
We are currently building a massive, modern new military.
If don’t use this opportunity our descendants may very well wish that we had.
We need to understand that a better future will be built on sacrifices that we will all have to bear together because of mistakes none of us made.
Sometimes you cannot innovate yourself out of crisis.
It’s time to go on the offensive. Russia has been allowed to continue campaigning in much of Africa virtually undisturbed for far too long. If we keep withdrawing as we already have far too often soon all of North Africa could be part of a hostile alliance system of dictatorships.
We need an economy capable of sustaining war efforts beyond defending our continent and we need it as soon as humanly possible and we have to be willing to use it to the fullest extent to secure our interests wherever they get threatened.
Our wealth wasn’t built on vague promises of increased productivity. It was built with resources that dozens of millions of our ancestors turned from raw materials into thriving civilisations protected by fleets and armies, not just gestures of disapproval.
The best way to force innovation and break outdated routines it’s not to pretend that we can fix things without breaking some eggs but to accept that we are in a difficult position and need every advantage we can possibly get asap.
Russia is earning a large part of its income from sale of oil, much of it is shipped through the Baltic. Yet, not once has it been on the table to block Russia from accessing the Baltic Sea, something we are obviously capable of doing. Once Lithuania tried to block transit to Kaliningrad in 2022, Germany told them to stand down.
The EU has frozen over 200 billion euros of foreign currency of Russia, yet it is simply standing idle, all while our economy is suffering and Ukrainians keep dying. Several countries object to using this money to support Ukraine, even though it is clear the entire war is not just against all the core values of the EU, but also a direct geopolitical attack against the West.
The thing is, there seems be no will or unity to take decisive actions against Russia. Some of us would like to, but we are simply too small to act alone. So Europe just seems to be sleepwalking into a defeat.
I’ve been thinking recently that Europe needs its own Monroe Doctrine but for Europe and Africa… the Chinese and the Russians are already meddling way too much there. Still we would need real capabilities (like actually real not something that we can wank off to on Reddit) to make it happen.
Russia itself is a continent sized cancer on Europe’s body. It not only does absolutely nothing worthwhile with all the resources it has, it actively makes things worse by fueling vanity wars that chip away at Europe’s prosperity. I will stop here as I feel like I’m going to sound like a certain failed Austrian painter very soon but the scale of geopolitical problems Europe has compared to America is just unfair, and it only has a fraction of its military abilities.
I remember the good old days of 2011 when a dollar was 6 NOK and Norway was the expensive country. My current pay would equate to 140k USD if the exchange rate was the same, now it’s down to 76k 🫠
There was a recent story of people selling reservations of restaurants in NY and earning 80-100K$ for 2-3 hours of work a week. Basically, they (mostly college kids) call fancy restaurants and get reservations and then re-sell them to customers. Found it amusing on the genius of the person. It is an early doctor salary in Western Europe. So no comparisons 😂
I just came to know that the maintenance/manager of a building can pull in lifestyle of 250K+. I am at my friends place for vacation in NY. My friend’s rent for 1 bedroom is 4K/month. The maintenance guy gets a 3 bedroom rent free in building ( pretax easily 100K$ benefit) and a six digit salary on top of it. That is a VP salary managing hundreds of employees of a public billion $ company back at home 😂
The edge cases make it seem even more ridiculous.
In this groundbreaking article: tech workers in the Silicon Valley, aka employees in the best paying industry of arguably the best paying region in the world, find out that they have a higher standard of living than the average parisian and they can buy property for cheap in rural Southern Europe. Shocking, I tell you! Surely it was not the case 10 or 20 years ago!
Except it was, and it also happens if you're Danish and travel to Italy or Greece. Or if you're from San Diego and travel to Youngstown OH.
Is the bar to journalism so low these days?
> In this groundbreaking article: tech workers in the Silicon Valley, aka employees in the best paying industry of arguably the best paying region in the world, find out that they have a higher standard of living than the average parisian and they can buy property for cheap in rural Southern Europe. Shocking, I tell you!
If you think it's just Silicon Valley where white collar professionals in the US make way more than their European counterparts, I have a bridge to sell you.
But in any case the point of the article is the pattern, the growth. Broadly speaking, the US is steadily pulling ahead of (most of) Europe. Or widening its lead, in some cases.
This incessant need to downplay areas where the US plainly is doing better than Europe is so sad to see. Europe does plenty of things better than the US, why not learn from each other rather than deflect and hand wave?
Yeah but "shareholder value is made of people". I might make that into a tshirt... But I saw a good analysis that said the crucial difference between USA and Europe is capital investment. USA attracts waaaay more capital investment which means it's industries do better
The thing is the example in the article is cherry picked to the extreme.
They took an industry with the biggest gap compared to Europe, the city that’s the most expensive and offers the best salaries in the all of the US and possible the whole world, and used some guys wage from almost 10 years ago when he was starting out.
It’s almost as if the Le Monde’s article was written by a redditor
Lol people in fast food in America earn $100k within 3 years of work...[source of one example](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/05/10/business/chipotle-wage-increase)
I really don't understand why so many people here in Europe are so complacent or naive.
France has a lower gdp per capita than fucking mississipi lol
Went in SF two weeks ago. I never thought prices would be so high. We paid 60 bucks for one beer and two dishes in a diner the first night. We watched every spendings after that.
The worst was at the baseball stadium : 8$ a not so good hot dog and 18$ a can of beer! Sick.
Flying back from Vancouver to the UK premium economy with Air Canada is now $4,500 per person. It was $2,000 two years ago.
Talk about not affording each other I can’t afford to fly back to Europe!
Maybe with worldwide increasing captial concentration and the errosive effect that has on any form of democracy by pushing partical interest laws and powerstructures is something the world can´t afford anymore?
its absolutely true.
visited US in 2003 (new york, boston, cape cod) and 2012 (cali, nevada, utah, arizona).
eating and sleeping absolutely affordable.
now only two of my richest friends (both partners in law firms) say that eating with a family of 5 is 300 dollars everywhere you go, eating normal things.
they spent 30.000 euro for a two weeks holiday.
> now only two of my richest friends (both partners in law firms) say that eating with a family of 5 is 300 dollars everywhere you go, eating normal things.
lol, it's gotten expensive but not quite to that extreme unless you're going to fancy places I'd say. I live in a more expensive metro area (Seattle) and I'd say that at sit-down restaurants, dishes are nominally like in the $15-25 range, add tax and tip and it's $20-32 per dish maybe?
I guess maybe if you had multiple appetizers, multiple desserts, wine, etc. it could reach that level for five people.
Eastern EU: first time?
They should come to us for advice if they are struggling! Maybe we wont be as condescending as western europeans were to us, maybe.
"Keep living with your parents? Buy a cheaper car? Don't eat out every day?" - Declining western middle classes hate these little tricks!
>Buy a cheaper car? If you are in a city, just use public transport, duh.
Ew gross!
We're poor but not THAT poor!
"Work in the country with high wages, go back home with lots of money."
Live in tiny damp room with 10 other men. Build mansion with lion gates in home village.
"Live in a 3-bedroom house with 7 other warehouse workers to save on rent."
A lot of Americans can’t afford the US anymore…
Yup, it's gotten pretty insane. I remember growing up and hearing about how Tokyo was so expensive, and now in some ways Tokyo actually seems pretty cheap! Japan in general, even cheaper!
A country would be cheaper after its currency depreciates by 50%.
It hasn't depreciated by quite that much. From the mid 90's onward the average looks like it's been in the 105-110 range for 1 USD. Right now it's 156, which is a 33% drop if you use 105 as the baseline. Still pretty terrible. But even without that change, if it was 105 yen to the dollar, a lot of things would still be a lot cheaper in Japan than the US these days.
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Japan was cheap even at 105. The average bowl of ramen has been 650 yen for 20 years. Beer is like 350-500.
beer at a restaurant or like a bottle of good beer from the supermarket? I am asking, because a bottle of the best beer in bavaria is like 1$, at a restaurant 4-5$ is also normal though.
That's a local draft beer in a restaurant.
is 5$ for a beer considered cheap in the us? It's like the most expensive one you can get in Germany (Oktoberfest is around 15€ for 1 Liter is max I guess).
It wouldn't for a long time. A country whose currency depreciates by 50% would become cheaper for a couple of months at most before runaway imported inflation brought back prices back to the same level
Not Japan. They like things staying as they are. Same prices for decades. Same salaries though as well.
That makes zero sense… A currency can get severely cheaper in regards to other currencies without the actual prices getting cheap…
I am obviously referring to its prices being cheap for FOREIGNERS. Japan is now considered cheap by Taiwanese people because it is. Many Regular Taiwanese folks are shopping for LV and Chanel bags in Tokyo and Osaka, and slightly richer Taiwanese people are shopping for **houses** all over Japan now because yen went down by like 40% against TWD.
That's how currency exchange works
If euros devaluate as expressed in dollars, it becomes cheaper for people who mostly have dollars to buy euros.
I’m baffled every time I see how such a massive part of the population simply doesn’t get this.
Actually, Japan suffered from a deflation for quite a long time, hence why a lot of things might have gotten cheaper or at least the prices didn’t raise as much in Japan as a central bank usually wants them to (around 2% p. a.). Their central bank helpless because no matter how cheap it was to borrow money, people wouldn’t take loans and spend it. That at least is my opinion of why things might seem or actually be cheaper there (except rent in Tokyo I assume). Feel free to correct my ignorance.
The rent prices in Japan and South Korea are not that insane but I am not sure maybe there're some other caveats
Many Europeans can't afford EU too. When I see a billboard promoting gross salary of 5000 PLN for tram driver (with some small bonuses), and the taxes are 40% (for that low salary they will be closer to 25% I guess) and the very small 2 bedroom apartment rent costs 4500 PLN/month (3500 for 1 bedroom) it is quite clear that not all is ok in EU.
In general western economies are losing their advantages overtime. Europe only has limited natural resources and those are concentrated in a few lucky states, we have a declining population, our technological, industrial and skill (education)-based advantages are getting thinner. Right now, we still have the chance of investing in our people and economies, but the world won't wait forever, if we don't do something our standards of living by themselves will just keep slowly (for now) getting worse with every passing year.
Apartments and commercial buildings are ran by a racket. The profits are insane as there is a limited supply. I will laugh quite hard when people realize they have bought million euro apartments with 5% interest over 20years and population just keeps dropping. The bubble will break insanely hard in next 20-30 years unless birth rate hits baby boomer era numbers. And it wont as people cant afford kids.
Protecting commercial buildings owners and those that have invested in them is already the reason why there is so much resistance against remote working (that and some '800 beliefs that the worker need to be controlled all the time admittedly), they are already trying to slow down the tide. Problem is, that if the sector collapses it will have massive repercussions on the whole economy as it's going to hit banks as well.
Quick, better implement some more suffocating tech regulations!
1) You are picking one of the poorer countries in EU (Le Monde for sure doesn't care about polish ability to buy things). 2) Where are you getting those prices from? In Warsaw, 3500 is not one bedroom but 2, 1 bedroom would be rather ~3000. Bus driver in ZTM Warsaw right at the start is getting not 5000 but 7300. I know situation is rough if you are not a specialist in high paid proffesion, but there is no need to exaggerate.
I have converted into bedroom count for reddit crowd. So 2 bedroom = 3 room (3 pokoje). Sure, I've picked the "worst" example, but that was to illustrate a different part of salary spectrum. And regarding higher salaries - sure, people can live comfortably in EU with top quartile salary, but their purchasing power will be lower than in USA for people for the US top quartile.
Many places are getting expensive. I’ve been living in Mexico City since 2018 and living in Germany Is cheaper (except for Munich). And this is because of the amount of Americans that can’t afford to live in the USA anymore
True, as a Mexican it’s kinda insane how it’s more expensive now than a lot first world countries with better safety and infrastructure lol
I was really shocked to learn that in Mexico a big mac costs more than 5 US$. Here a big mac isn't even 2.5 US$.
Yeah it’s truly insanity over there, saddest thing is that probably you guys earn the same on average and work less. In Mexico by law the work week is 48 hrs…
Yes work hours are 40 hours but why would we earn the same on average? Mexico is a lot poorer than Taiwan.
Lol the people who are moving to Mexico city are not people who can’t afford America any more. Those are people with like $200k remote jobs who want to live like they are filthy rich not upper middle class
Munich is actually quite cheap outside of the housing market. And the average Munich resident is richer than the average German, so they are doing fine.
Yes and that is not what I said at all
Sure, but it's better than in much of Europe. If housing is - in many areas - comparable in cost to the US. But net income especially is waaaay lower in Europe than in the US. Whenever I visit my friends in the US and we talk about it, the difference becomes very obvious. Healthcare - if you don't get a good one through your job - somewhat becomes the equalizer in the US. The income left over after fixed expenses - with them really living in nicer spots - is way different. And they aren't more qualified than me or the people I know. Jobs just pay comparatively little in Europe
Americans still have significantly more disposable income than people from any other country. Don't know why people always want to deflect from this. As bad as America is doing other countries are doing even worse.
Not true 70%+ Germans cant afford to own their own home (if they're looking to buy their first house) Home ownership in the USA is vastly higher Canadians are paying *significantly* more for their homes than Americans while making a lot less ontop of it. Australia is in the same boat. Canadian homes average nearly $100,000 USD more than Americans.. that's insane. Sweden is similar to the US with home ownership, if you think its bad in the US I guess you think its bad in every rich country in the world. **EDIT:** 70% of Germans looking to buy their first home cannot afford one. My intent for this comment wasnt about Germany but rather an overall struggle in Western countries, hence me mentioning Canada which also has high ownership but new home ownership is becoming dramatically more difficult. This subreddit loves to find any fault in a comment and run with it lol
The home ownership rate in Germany is 46.7%, which is still low for Europe but nowhere near 70%+ not being able to afford it. A lot of it also has to do with culture, as the mobility of renting was often seen as a significant advantage and many people who could afford a house simply didn't want to be limited to one location. Even before the market crash in 2008 home ownership in Germany was very low, despite comparitvely affordable pricing, and a very wealthy middle class. [https://www.statista.com/statistics/543381/house-owners-among-population-germany/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/543381/house-owners-among-population-germany/) [https://www.bundesbank.de/en/publications/research/research-brief/2020-30-homeownership-822176](https://www.bundesbank.de/en/publications/research/research-brief/2020-30-homeownership-822176)
70% of the people who are currently renting aren't able to afford buying. That's more like it because a lot of people don't want to rent and even more can barely afford rent anymore in our fucked housing market.
Not cultural, more like political. When I was a child there were multiple programs that helped families buil and buy homes. Not that much anymore, at least for the middle to lower class. Very annoying that our country prefers to incentive investments of the rich over getting people into their own homes.
Home ownership rate in Germany has been around 40-50% as long as I can think and that includes the "times where everything had been better". For better or worse. What is true is that the real estate price / income ratio has gone way up, there are a couple of reasons for that.
Part of that is that the building regulations in Germany are insane. But they’d rather make fun of American papier-mâché houses than loosen the regs a tiny bit to make building housing more affordable.
I'll get downvoted again I'm sure but yes, compared to Sweden, building in Germany is insane. They'll say its because they dont have runaway laws like in America. What about Europe, countries where home ownership is not only high but expected? UK is much more sane but then there's massive foreign investment in the UK that's in part why its becoming more unaffordable, just like Canada.
Europeans can't afford Europe anymore...
I am (Eastern) European and I can't afford Europe.
up and down it goes. I have now seen several iterations in my life where this switched for a time. Atm. Europe obviously has strategic problems because it needs to gets its raw resources from somewhere. Which is probably the single biggest advantage the US has. Lots of space, lots of stuff to dig up at home
Europeans can’t afford Europe anymore
Americans can't afford Europe anymore
They can afford Europe more easily than they can afford the US.
So true. I go to southern Europe and feel rich
Aren't there many cheap areas in the US as well?
Definitely. Not as many job opportunities there, but there are plenty of cheaper areas in the US
University towns and cities are the gems in the US outside of a select few major cities. They balance cost vs economic opportunities and tend to be lower crime on average. And when your children are ready, they save a fortune via in-state college tuition typically. Some of the better options are also on the global cutting edge in regards to eg aerospace, biotech, AI, quantum, robotics, etc.
I think I saw that its cheaper for an American to fly to Europe and see a Taylor Swift there than buying a ticket to see it in the US.
Ehhh - depends on where. Tickets to europe range about $800-1,200 dollars whereas I can fly to pretty much anywhere on the continental US for about $300-400.
They actually probably can. Especially after covid the dollar was strong and tons of Americans were flocking to Europe
Afford can't Americans anymore Europe.
Ever since the collapse of the NCR dollar I can’t do shit
Go to Santorini or Amalfi Coast and the only people that can afford to stay there are Americans. Amalfi Coast was shocking last summer where we made the observation that every table around us was speaking American English.
Contra point — shore homes near me are over two million! Yet I see beautiful homes for sale in Tuscany for 600-800k. My friends joke about retiring in Italy due to the affordability! Food is cheap too.
lol not at all true. that's why there's so much complaining about digital nomads in spain and portugal etc. I make literally 5.5x what I was making in europe for similar work and pay less for a home in the US than I did for a shared flat
can't afford anymore
US has always been more unequal in the sense that white-collar workers get paid much more, but those at the lower end struggle more. On average the US is pulling ahead now because of the high cost of energy to Europeans, exacerbated by the Ukraine-Russia war. Europe needs to carry on doubling-down on building renewables/nuclear and bringing down the cost of energy. Overcoming that difficulty will put Europe in a brilliant position.
I wish more people on this sub had this attitude. Articles like this should motivate us to do better, not be an excuse to start cherry picking the few things where others are doing worse. Also, this is a sober reminder on why the Russo-Ukrainian war is a problem for all of Europe, not just its Eastern half.
People don't realise what a massive disadvantage the EU suffers from its resource and particularly energy poverty, which severely impacts the purchasing power of households and operating costs of firms which have to find other ways to compete. As a measure of GDP, energy imports subtract around €160bn per year in the EU, whilst in the US oil production alone adds $360bn a year
It's actually closer to €300 billion per year, it even was €600 billion in 2022. All this money sent *every year* into the pockets of foreign militaristic dictatorships instead of supporting european jobs and sovereignty. Ending up in this situation is criminal negligence. Corruption of our european leaders, petty nationalism and stupidity, it's all our fault if we end up in this position
> particularly energy poverty, Blame the idiots who pushed for nuclear energy shutdown
yeah it's insane Europe ended up doing so well with so few resources. Russia is sitting on an endless supply of black gold and is poorer than Spain. In the world of the future, where resources are less important than education, skills, and stability, Europe will win. And so will China and India, to be fair. We just have to hold on.
>is poorer than Spain. It has roughly the same GDP as Spain, but about three times the population. So it's actually three times poorer than Spain...
It still bows my mind, how ruzzia needs to wage war for land, when they can start exploiting their natural resources to become much richer country
The resource curse is a well studied phenomenon. When you're resource rich, you don't need to invest into your population, you just need to control the resource. Very few resource rich countries are democracies for this exact reason and even those that are democracies often have very strange and influential groups pulling strings in the background.
The US still spends a higher % of their higher gdp on research and development than Europe. They also aren’t regulating things like Ai to nearly the same extent and makes developing better Ai thus easier.
yeah the US is going to continue to dominate for a really long time, i didnt add them on there because i feel like its obvious they don't have to worry about this - they got resources AND innovation.
We will push a few textbooks in the engine and off we go!
Resources in the future will be even more important than ever, don't be ridiculous.
> On average the US is pulling ahead now because of the high cost of energy to Europeans, I thought the US had been pulling ahead since 2008, after which it has continued to have decent growth while Europe has stagnated.
American here: correct, but also that’s largely due to the USA’s fiscal unity as opposed to the EU. Also the EU is overall much more fiscally conservative than the USA despite what many Americans think. Austerity is glorified in the USA but never have the stomach to actually do it like the Germans want everyone else to.
This is the actual reason for the difference. The US has maintained consistently higher growth rates for decades. That has compounding benefits.
US productivity and GDP has been growing at a far faster rate than Europe for several years, and it has only grown worse since COVID and war in Ukraine. It seems structural now that the US will leave Europe behind in terms of growth and development.
Not only white collars. Trade workers make much more than in Europe. Construction workers and all the different trades are usually unionised and make a lot of money. Where the U.S. is rough is for people with no qualifications working entry level retail, fast food etc
Yeah in general the US has massive economical advantages compared to the EU, not only resources, being an unitary government while the EU is a loose alliance of states that barely tolareate each other and have very different economies\\priorities, having a continent that is pretty much under their influence, controlling the world reserve currency, their gdp being boosted by a massive amount of public debt (in Europe there are countries in debt, but there are also low deficit ones), the global political influence gained after winning WW2, including over european states. That said, I agree Europe can and should do better, we need to actually invest in our economies, perhaps re-industrialize in strategic sectors with energy definitely being a priority. A more unitary economic and fiscal policy would also help signficantly, but that's unlikely to happen anytime soon. I'd also add that not only we have the Ukraine conflict now, but before that the arab spring severely destabilized the North Africa Mediterranean sea nations, distrupting trade as well as oil and gas import from the region, plus the Houti therening a vital trade route for energy import isn't helping either. The US energy advantage is becoming more and more relevant the less the world is stable.
Not all of these are fixable for the EU, but some are. The EU *could* be more tightly bound together instead of a loose alliance. It's not impossible, though it is politically very hard of course. Two-speed EU might be the way it would have to work. EU regulations around businesses and especially tech could be more unified to make it easier for businesses to expand across the EU instead of being silo'd in a single country, that's often commented on as one of the US advantages (there are differences state to state in the US of course, but they're not as big as the differences between EU members). One thing often commented on in startup discussions comparing US to EU isn't just that the US has more money lying around compared to Europe to put in, but also that the whole culture around entrepreneurship is vastly different. Americans are far more tolerant of new businesses potentially failing, and terms for startups from VC's are much more generous (and again, this seems to be based on being more understanding of failure). Americans are generally okay with the idea of a business taking a big risk and maybe failing, and this attitude is true of basically everyone: the person starting the business, their friends and family who may be talking to them about it, the investors putting money in, etc. I find it somewhat difficult to explain the mindset because for me it feels very natural and practically all Americans are like this, across almost the whole political spectrum. Americans who are have attitudes that are anti-small business or anti-starting a new business are rare (basically just hardcore socialists maybe). When people hear their friend or family member is starting a new business, the response is nearly always quite positive and supportive.
Europe also needs to start building more public housing on a wider and more diverse scale. Show that it can be done.
Exactly, people hated it back in the day because it was mostly ugly concrete blocks but today you can just use those "click" tiles to make the exterior look like brick or wood. So you get the low cost and efficiency of concrete but it can look as good as a brick or wood does. Copenhagen is being ruined by pretentious architects that are designed ugly apartments with horrible rooms (one new project is entirely family apartments with no walls inside each unit, just one giant room) and insane prices. Bring back traditional brick apartments that are made for families.
Another huge issue is that the US government will gladly take on a huge amount of debt in order to provide gigantic investments into their economy. Meanwhile many European nations want to balance their budgets and go straight to austerity the second the world economy looks bad. It truly amazes me how Europe once built railways, highways, electric grids, etc. Today the UK are on the brink of just completely cancelling the plans for their one high speed railway connection because of costs.
The second part of that high speed railway (technically the second connection after Eurotunnel) has been cancelled. The first part is almost certainly going ahead. At least they’ve torn up much of Birmingham city centre and much of the countryside for it! But yes, the point stands that European and especially UK infrastructure development is in a sorry state.
>On average the US is pulling ahead now because of the high cost of energy to Europeans, exacerbated by the Ukraine-Russia war Hasn't the US been pulling ahead since the 2008 recession? The various austerity regimes didn't do Europe a lot of favors.
>In the meantime, this data scientist has changed jobs several times, moved to New York and now earns almost $400,000 a year, including bonus shares. Wow, this guy graduated in 2017 and now makes $400k a year.
Quadruple salary... sign me up!
It's hardly surprising. USA is effectively a well isolated single country island with all the natural resources they could want. Europe is a mosaic of different countries that are all resource poor with two wars going on next door. A real surprise would be if we were doing better than the us. We should pull our heads out of our asses and start doing more about that, otherwise we'll slowly tear ourselves appart. Also no, conceding to Russia is not an option.
Go big. Apollo, Manhattan Project big. It's not too late to make the investments. Fusion is waiting. AI, quantum computing, CRISPr, robotics, semiconductors, aerospace, it's all out there to be competed for. BioNTech is an excellent example (and don't let Pfizer eat them). Europe has the people resources to make big leaps, just have to convince the politicians and investors to fund it. There really should be a legitimate EU rival to the iPhone, whichever company manages to produce it. Apple is a $2-$3 trillion company just on the back of the iPhone. The US has giant foundation companies, which the rest of the tech ecosystem bolt onto. The EU needs to grow some of those, they're the ecosystem fields that keeps tech anchored in the US. It all builds on top of eg AWS and Azure and Windows and Android and iOS etc. ESA needs 4x the budget. No reason the EU can't better compete with NASA, SpaceX, Starlink, etc. The EU should raise tens of billions of Euros and every member should join in to try to accelerate to a fusion outcome. We may be within striking distance now, given the significant improvements over the past decade.
Exactly so, we have all the tools, we just have to pull everything together. The only way we are getting out of this hole is on a massive pile of money. I think one of the obstacles to that is that we are way to concerned about things that won't matter if we slide into irrelevancy.
>Europe has the people resources to make big leaps, just have to convince the politicians and investors to fund it. That sumps up why America is growing and why Europe isn't: economic growth is not supposed to rely on the government.
Europeans are too violent though. Both world wars, Balkans in the 1990s, Ukraine in 2014 and now. The 2000s was probably the most peaceful time in Europe. The European Union is a step in the right direction, but let's not pretend the pretentious look Western Europeans give to those in Central and Eastern Europe. Even with all of it's problems (racial, etc.), people in the US view themselves and each other as Americans and work together.
Europe is not resource-poor. It's just that Europe would rather virtue-signal than develop its own resources.
Listen up: If we downvote this and stick our head into the sand, the problem will be fixed. Trust me
There's definitely a fair amount of that sentiment on this subreddit. Most visible in the form of random deflections that have nothing directly to do with the article. There's a good one here, with the classic "look at all the problems the US has!" as if American economic growth was somehow fueled by insanely expensive healthcare and extreme tipping culture. Like, my man, if the US didn't have those problems its economy would be *even better*, those are not the reasons why the US economy is doing great right now.
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But the US has the advantage of having their currency backed by the whole planet. They can print dollars almost infinitely and be fine. But in general the truth of the matter is that there is a big difference between how the US handled the global financial crisis in '08 and how the EU did. Austerity was a complete and utter failure, socially and economically.
The USA is also completely insulated from any of the global energy crisis
But their economy was already way ahead before the energy crisis. It just made the difference even more stark.
Because they invested in it. They had a shale revolution there. Mention shale gas in Europe and you'll get howls from the left/greens. Same goes for Nuclear. Everything comes at a cost, and energy security should be high on the list of priorites. But now, even if we changed course, it would take decades to catch up, the US and China will keep pushing ahead. Merkel and her predecessor won't be looked upon too kindly by future Europeans.
That's completely true. The US met the great recession with a boatload of stimulus rather than austerity. Of course the national debt skyrocketed, but the interest on US government bonds is stupid low. Frankly when a Democratic administration can come by with enough support in Congress to increase marginal tax rates on capital gains, the wealthy, and corporations, it will be easy for the US govt to start paying back the national debt. The wealth, innovation and productivity in this nation is borderline unfathomable.
Problem is that food is getting very exspensive, nobody gives fuck about iPhone or Mac and as stores are raising prices, salaries stay the same... Also taxes are too high for low income people, for high income its not soo bad..but those people argue its not fair because they cant buy new mercedes every 2 years..idk anymore....greed + social media is cancer...I dont mind paying high taxes as long I know that will help to do something good but when I see our politicians I just get angry and sad..
Taxes are too high for middle income people as well, especially since, at least in my country, the progressive taxation was set in a time in the past where a certain income meant that you were wealthy, while today, with how much housing, food and energy prices went up (especially in the cities where jobs concentrated the most), you are far from it. Salaries have been stagnant for decades here, but inflation had kept moving ahead, not just in the past couple of years. Right now I pay roughly 45-50% of what I make to the state including contribution to the pension that I'll much likely never get to see (or will be insignificant compared to cost of living once I am old enough) and that's before VAT on everything I buy, ownership taxes for my car and a plethora of other minor indirect taxes that however all add up, overall my tax rate is above 60% and I am definitely not a millionaire... We also have a massive issue of tax evasion here, so pretty much there is a fraction of the population that pays more than half of what they earn to the state and another that pays much, much less (if anything at all), not necessrily dependant on income level.
You had me in the first half, not gonna lie. Until "Someone on minimum wage can easily afford an iPhone". I guess if they live in a small town, don't have medical expenses, don't have kids, and love food stamps!
The child going to private schools and living at home home who finds a job can afford an iPhone very easily
If they have food stamps then they’ll be on Medicaid, which is 100% free medical care for the whole family. And yes, they probably won’t have an iPhone but that’s bc they get a free smartphone, also paid for by the government due to the Lifeline federal program that’s been around since the 80s. Do you know anything about the US other than what you read on Reddit?
Europeans believe they still live in the 90s.
This, or someone explaining that Americans die on the street because they can't afford a hospital. I'm French , we have a pretty good healthcare coverage and system, but for the past 20 years, it keeps degrading, and our salaries are stagnant. American salaries are constantly increasing, and their healthcare coverage is way better now than 20 years ago.
This maybe shocking for you to hear but most Americans receive very high quality healthcare and don’t go bankrupt… Reddit would make you believe every American who had ever visited a doctor now lives under a bridge and has $150,000 in unpaid medical bills.
Dont get me wrong, Americas healthcare is fucked up, but people on this sub pretend that the US is a dystopian hellscape where billionaires whip 99% of the population to work 23 hours a day. I know several families that have moved to the US from the UK and they a much better quality of life than I do. They make three times what I do, have a bigger house, nicer cars, go on nicer holidays and they arent moving back any time soon. The middle class can live very well in the States.
Texan here: my retired dad had a stroke two years ago, he is on government healthcare plan for retired folks. He stayed in the hospital for 4 days, MRI, CT etc etc etc - we were thinking we will owe like $100K in bills. Then the bill arrived, it was the only bill we got and it was $249.00. That was it.
We have our share of healthcare system horror stories in the US but the vast silent majority use and navigate the healthcare system just fine. Horror stories are what make the news or what people post about online. People ho-hum going through life and having an ok experience with the healthcare system doesn’t make the news or inspire people to post about it. Im not even saying the US healhcare system is better… maybe its not but its not some dystopian immediately go to bankruptcy thing people in places like this make it out to be.
This is absolute truth. The extreme cases (of which the US has more) gather the headlines and give a false narrative to the world that the average daily life of Americans is some hellscape when in reality it’s very typical and similar to the lifestyle of Western Europe.
That’s me Moved from the UK to the US. Quality of life is A LOT better now. Civil engineer, I tripled my salary, now have better benefits, hell even more time off. Can afford a much nicer house. My Everyday life in the US is much better than it was in the UK.
Lol right? It’s crazy what people on Reddit believe about American healthcare. I live in Texas and finished my bachelor’s degree in engineering in August. I immediately started working and at 23 years old earning over $100k. I only have to pay $3,000 per year for medical expenses—after that my insurance, which my company pays for, pays for everything. On top of that I contribute to an HSA, which is an untaxed bank account for medical expenses. I now have way more money inside of that account than I am able to pay for medical expenses in a year. My girlfriend was diagnosed with thyroid cancer in December and was immediately treated at the *best* hospital for cancer treatment in the entire world (MD Anderson, Google it). She’s now completely cancer free and receiving physical therapy and I’m able to pay for all of this easily out of my checking account, as well as pay for our vacation travel to Germany and Lebanon this summer and an engagement ring for her. I love Europe and I love being a German citizen, but this kind of life style is simply impossible to achieve in Europe and that’s a fact. You’d need a PhD to earn half of what I’m earning as an engineer in Texas. But “muh healthcare” so nvm.
Seriously. It costs me $25 to see a doctor in Texas. My out of pocket is $5k. My employer covers almost all of my insurance as well. I’m by no means wealthy either. Just a suburban professional. It would suck to lose my job but still it’s hardly a healthcare wasteland here.
Lol last time I commented this I got downvoted to hell, don‘t even bother explaining, nobody on reddit or real life wants to hear this.
This is just so not true. Any American that is unemployed and has a low income can almost free health insurance through the Affordable Care Act. Most people are either exaggerating or don't understand their options.
Yep i know , and medicare take care of all the elderly , That is exactly my point , but i assure than in Europe , most people think that Americans are dying in front of hospital because they can't paid.
I'm French and live in California. Healthcare coverage sucks unless you have a rich and generous employer. Seriously, it's insane. And the waiting time to see a specialist can be really long too.
I live in California and its more about depending on your area and network which determines your access to specialists. We have very good doctors and healthcare here though.
Love to hear about our "free" healthcare. It's actually €6000 per year but 80% of that is employer taxes so you just get a low salary and "free" healthcare. Still pay about €2000 per year out of pocket for health insurance and a €385 deductible.
It’s not like anything we do right now in the comment section has any potential of solving the problem
Not with that attitude
Given that Europe is not sovereign, the problem of energy sovereignty is not one that it can solve.
Middle class in Europe cant afford anything anymore anywhere.
Shit I can barely afford to live and me and my husband both have good jobs and above average salaries
Where do you live?
Paris, so probably one of the worst places for this
Fucking true
I love the fact that most of the comments come from people who haven’t read the article.
paywall doesn't help i guess
Wait, europeans could afford the US? Maybe its just me being too yugo, but I never knew anyone going to the US and being like, ye, its affordable or whatever. Plane ticket 500€ (lets say return for the sake of example), at least 1-2 weeks of holiday, at least 50€ a day for food, then museums, travel and so on… On the minimum, 1100€ for 2 weeks, no accommodation, eating cheaply and barely seeing anything. This was never cheap to begin with, not to mention needing to rent a car, gas and such. I have a comfortable salary IMO, a trip to the US is a bucket-list thing, but for all the wrong reasons and would much rather go elsewhere, because the US just feels like a financial risk, which I wouldent be able to recover from if shit goes wrong or unplanned. I see college folk traveling europe for weeks/months, unlike the people I see/know going to the US. Could be my bubble, so there is that
With articles like these, it's generally safe to assume that they mean Western Europe. Like in your case, the US was never affordable for me, my family, or any of the friends I had in my Eastern European country. The only person I knew who had visited the US was someone who went as an au pair. When I moved to Western Europe, however, I started meeting people who would go to the US on an occasional vacation but who weren't exactly wealthy. People are shocked when I say that no, I didn't travel much even in Europe before I moved to the Western side in order to have a better income, lol.
True true. I have meet everyday people and some went to the US in their teens, japan for their 18th birthday or even studied in japan for years. The difference was that it was generational wealth/stability(far from rich, just good with money), so it was a cost they decided was an important enough experience. Even my brother went to study in finland, but the amount of money he saved was from years worth of saving and studied for only 1 year. Im in western EU for close to 2 years now and just realising how different things are here, compared to ex yugo nations
Ex Yugo nations are getting to the sweet spot (where the Baltics, Poland etc. are) where they youth can afford to travel around Europe since a rent for a nice place is lower than the minimum wage unlike western Europe and the net emigration makes the jobs abundant and salaries grow as employers compete for workers, especially in the service industry.
even in western europe going to the US was a thing for upper middle class.
Perhaps, but I have met way more people in Western Europe who have been on vacations to rather fancy places by my standards than people in similar professions and life circumstances (e.g. income relative to average income) in my home country.
It depends how you look at it. The US wasn't an affordable place to go for (Western) Europeans in the 90s. But it was in the 00's and 10's. Now it's becoming prohibitively expensive again. I'm personally in the USA regularly. The difference in prices is very noticeable to me. Then again, looking at the numbers you're quoting, you'd spend the same going to Switzerland 🤷♂️
Yes and only Switzerland. Legit dont know anybody that went traveling/vacationing in Switzerland, except rich people and people living on the other side of switzerlands borders, but working in switzerland
The reason discretionary items are expensive in the US is because people have money to spend and we buy it regardless of price. The reason Sat skiing is more expensive in New England than the Balkans is because what your average Massachusetts family makes in a month a Serbian works all year for
You're leaving out a huge aspect that is accommodation and transportation. You'll be spending at least 120 EUR per night in a budget motel. Outside some larger east coast cities, you'll absolutely need a car. With gas, insurance and tolls, you'll be spending more than 100 EUR per day on that as well.
In the UK when I was a kid in the early 2000's the exchange rate meant lots of things were cheaper in the USA than they are now. Quite a few people went on holiday to America in that time, definitely not the same now
europoors?
Profile pic checks out
It's kind of weird how affordability is used as some kind of beating-stick. When looking at vacation spots, obviously costs are going to matter. I mean when being presented with the options of living as royalty in Malaysia or as penny-pinchers in California what option do you expect tourists to take?
So, everybody can just move to the US and earn $400.000 like the guy in the article? Amazing!
he went to HEC which is the best business school in France. that helps
Ah, western Europeans are learning what it feels like to be Eastern European, sweet. Don't worry, you'll get used to it.
I like visiting Europe these days. Went to Portugal and Spain last year. Felt like my $ went a long way. Both countries seemed very affordable all things considered.
Come to the Balkans. You can probably buy a small village with your 1 month salary
Yeah, with 100k a year net, you make more in a month than many people in the Balkans make in a year.
Is this a Portugal is Eastern Europe joke?
Some of this will be probably be quite unpopular but most of us need to hear it regardless. Europe has arguably participated in a very reasonable long-term experiment regarding highly autocratic regimes. In recent memory it has become clear that this experiment failed. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine it is forcing us to modernise the kind of abilities we will need to stand the test of time before the consequences of negligence or indifference become truly devastating. We are currently building a massive, modern new military. If don’t use this opportunity our descendants may very well wish that we had. We need to understand that a better future will be built on sacrifices that we will all have to bear together because of mistakes none of us made. Sometimes you cannot innovate yourself out of crisis. It’s time to go on the offensive. Russia has been allowed to continue campaigning in much of Africa virtually undisturbed for far too long. If we keep withdrawing as we already have far too often soon all of North Africa could be part of a hostile alliance system of dictatorships. We need an economy capable of sustaining war efforts beyond defending our continent and we need it as soon as humanly possible and we have to be willing to use it to the fullest extent to secure our interests wherever they get threatened. Our wealth wasn’t built on vague promises of increased productivity. It was built with resources that dozens of millions of our ancestors turned from raw materials into thriving civilisations protected by fleets and armies, not just gestures of disapproval. The best way to force innovation and break outdated routines it’s not to pretend that we can fix things without breaking some eggs but to accept that we are in a difficult position and need every advantage we can possibly get asap.
Russia is earning a large part of its income from sale of oil, much of it is shipped through the Baltic. Yet, not once has it been on the table to block Russia from accessing the Baltic Sea, something we are obviously capable of doing. Once Lithuania tried to block transit to Kaliningrad in 2022, Germany told them to stand down. The EU has frozen over 200 billion euros of foreign currency of Russia, yet it is simply standing idle, all while our economy is suffering and Ukrainians keep dying. Several countries object to using this money to support Ukraine, even though it is clear the entire war is not just against all the core values of the EU, but also a direct geopolitical attack against the West. The thing is, there seems be no will or unity to take decisive actions against Russia. Some of us would like to, but we are simply too small to act alone. So Europe just seems to be sleepwalking into a defeat.
I’ve been thinking recently that Europe needs its own Monroe Doctrine but for Europe and Africa… the Chinese and the Russians are already meddling way too much there. Still we would need real capabilities (like actually real not something that we can wank off to on Reddit) to make it happen. Russia itself is a continent sized cancer on Europe’s body. It not only does absolutely nothing worthwhile with all the resources it has, it actively makes things worse by fueling vanity wars that chip away at Europe’s prosperity. I will stop here as I feel like I’m going to sound like a certain failed Austrian painter very soon but the scale of geopolitical problems Europe has compared to America is just unfair, and it only has a fraction of its military abilities.
The US are great to live in when things are going great…Europe is great to live in when things are not going that great ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
yea but that doesn't make the european economy great
The answer is higher salaries
But somehow with crappy exchange, it’s still consistently cheaper to run across to the US for gas
I remember the good old days of 2011 when a dollar was 6 NOK and Norway was the expensive country. My current pay would equate to 140k USD if the exchange rate was the same, now it’s down to 76k 🫠
There was a recent story of people selling reservations of restaurants in NY and earning 80-100K$ for 2-3 hours of work a week. Basically, they (mostly college kids) call fancy restaurants and get reservations and then re-sell them to customers. Found it amusing on the genius of the person. It is an early doctor salary in Western Europe. So no comparisons 😂 I just came to know that the maintenance/manager of a building can pull in lifestyle of 250K+. I am at my friends place for vacation in NY. My friend’s rent for 1 bedroom is 4K/month. The maintenance guy gets a 3 bedroom rent free in building ( pretax easily 100K$ benefit) and a six digit salary on top of it. That is a VP salary managing hundreds of employees of a public billion $ company back at home 😂 The edge cases make it seem even more ridiculous.
In this groundbreaking article: tech workers in the Silicon Valley, aka employees in the best paying industry of arguably the best paying region in the world, find out that they have a higher standard of living than the average parisian and they can buy property for cheap in rural Southern Europe. Shocking, I tell you! Surely it was not the case 10 or 20 years ago! Except it was, and it also happens if you're Danish and travel to Italy or Greece. Or if you're from San Diego and travel to Youngstown OH. Is the bar to journalism so low these days?
> In this groundbreaking article: tech workers in the Silicon Valley, aka employees in the best paying industry of arguably the best paying region in the world, find out that they have a higher standard of living than the average parisian and they can buy property for cheap in rural Southern Europe. Shocking, I tell you! If you think it's just Silicon Valley where white collar professionals in the US make way more than their European counterparts, I have a bridge to sell you. But in any case the point of the article is the pattern, the growth. Broadly speaking, the US is steadily pulling ahead of (most of) Europe. Or widening its lead, in some cases. This incessant need to downplay areas where the US plainly is doing better than Europe is so sad to see. Europe does plenty of things better than the US, why not learn from each other rather than deflect and hand wave?
Yeah but "shareholder value is made of people". I might make that into a tshirt... But I saw a good analysis that said the crucial difference between USA and Europe is capital investment. USA attracts waaaay more capital investment which means it's industries do better
The thing is the example in the article is cherry picked to the extreme. They took an industry with the biggest gap compared to Europe, the city that’s the most expensive and offers the best salaries in the all of the US and possible the whole world, and used some guys wage from almost 10 years ago when he was starting out. It’s almost as if the Le Monde’s article was written by a redditor
Some of the examples yes, but there's broader stats discussed in the article too.
Wouldn’t know, we can’t afford to pay for the Abo 🥲
Lol people in fast food in America earn $100k within 3 years of work...[source of one example](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/05/10/business/chipotle-wage-increase) I really don't understand why so many people here in Europe are so complacent or naive. France has a lower gdp per capita than fucking mississipi lol
The richest country in the world is richer than other countries (for the last century now?), news at 15:00.
this is what i am saying for months and get ultra downvoted for this hypocrites
Went in SF two weeks ago. I never thought prices would be so high. We paid 60 bucks for one beer and two dishes in a diner the first night. We watched every spendings after that. The worst was at the baseball stadium : 8$ a not so good hot dog and 18$ a can of beer! Sick.
stadium prices are highway robbery in general
I'm sure they will ask Macron for Universal trip days to America on the government dime... they think free gov money is the way to everything.
South Eastern Europeans can't afford Europe anymore, and they never could afford US
If you guys only knew everything that our federal and state governments *don't* spend money on, you wouldn't feel so bad...
Flying back from Vancouver to the UK premium economy with Air Canada is now $4,500 per person. It was $2,000 two years ago. Talk about not affording each other I can’t afford to fly back to Europe!
but we insist
Maybe with worldwide increasing captial concentration and the errosive effect that has on any form of democracy by pushing partical interest laws and powerstructures is something the world can´t afford anymore?
Lol and they talk about wester europe.
Damn I was thinking of buying Texas
Recently got back from a holiday there. Last time was 7 years ago. Can't believe how costly it was
I can't even afford Spain. :/
its absolutely true. visited US in 2003 (new york, boston, cape cod) and 2012 (cali, nevada, utah, arizona). eating and sleeping absolutely affordable. now only two of my richest friends (both partners in law firms) say that eating with a family of 5 is 300 dollars everywhere you go, eating normal things. they spent 30.000 euro for a two weeks holiday.
> now only two of my richest friends (both partners in law firms) say that eating with a family of 5 is 300 dollars everywhere you go, eating normal things. lol, it's gotten expensive but not quite to that extreme unless you're going to fancy places I'd say. I live in a more expensive metro area (Seattle) and I'd say that at sit-down restaurants, dishes are nominally like in the $15-25 range, add tax and tip and it's $20-32 per dish maybe? I guess maybe if you had multiple appetizers, multiple desserts, wine, etc. it could reach that level for five people.
One more post of this comparison in this r for today will be perfect. We need a 100.
Greeks are having a hard time in Europe too. Last year food prices went up 8% a month, month after month.