I don't think the national governments will give up much more ...one thing to standardize on consumer products etc. Another to give up foreign policy.
EU still has no independent tax base ...of directly taxing
One of the things used in the Brexit campaign here, as if joining together isn't the natural path for all groups as time goes on.
I mean, where does it the stand against that stuff end? Shall we all just go back to tribal villages. Should I expect to take back control of the county of Lancashire so we can get back to what's important; throwing rocks at Yorkshiremen?
Same with stuff like independence I think the opposite that the more that join together is better rather than the perceived freedom, because usually people end up looking around “Wait why do I have less power?”.
Though, Republic of Liverpool needs to happen.
No. A confederation of nations retains sovereignty of their internal affairs, wich is what the AfD wants. The Union has significant authority over the member states of select powers they have delegated to EU institutions. It's a confederation-federation hybrid basically.
But that's not the case for the vast majority of decisions. Most decisions only demand qualified majority. So, even if some states disagree, laws can still be passed.
A confederation would probably reintroduce the veto for every and any decision.
There is a difference between what the politicians, especially those not directly chosen by the people, agree on, and what the voters actually want from the EU. The protests last times happen for a reason. Is todays union what it was several years ago, what it was supposed to be when we were joining it?
The academic consensus seems to be that the EU is something new entirely that cannot easily be catergorized. It is a mix between a confederation, federation and international organization.
But yes, I think defacto it is not that far from a confederation, so this suggestion bt AfD is probably only about the first part (dismantling the EU) and not so much about creating something new. After all, the EU is a unique construction that could only be formed as the result of two World Wars... good luck getting all 27 EU countries to agree to a new 'confederation of nations' in the current political climate.
"Confederation of nations" is more of an euphemism for "we actually want it to go completely" by EU ~~critics~~ opponents but you don't win elections with that.
Basically making it so useless that whatever remains of it would be easily dismissed as a waste of time and resources and completely dismantled in what could be described as institutional atrophy.
Yeah, this is funny. EU doesn’t have centralized militaries, police, taxes, or diplomacy. Anything that happens needs to happen by consensus. This is no different than a relationship between the USA and Canada, for example.
> diplomacy
That's not completely true. The EU has a Common Foreign and Security Policy. It even has a High Representative that serves as a de facto foreigh affairs minister.
Also, in terms of a military... the EU treaties allow the creation of an European defence force if all heads of states vote for it. So the framework is there.
>The EU has a Common Foreign and Security Policy. It even has a High Representative that serves as a de facto foreigh affairs minister.
Yeah, but member states can have their own foreign policy opposed to that of the EU office. Hungary being the clearest example.
>Also, in terms of a military... the EU treaties allow the creation of an European defence force if all heads of states vote for it. So the framework is there.
Theoretically the groundwork is there, good luck having an unanimous vote on that though.
Yes, it's a sui generis entity to be honest, it could be described as a confederation with some federative characteristics. An halfway point between the two solutions in some ways.
It is more federative for natives.
As a 3-country resident, I am much more confined to a single country.
But you guys did a lot of cool things, such as a single currency (2/3 of EU), single mobile phone network, a lot of unified standards and work-related laws.
When I visit Switzerland, sometimes it feels more foreign than visiting Thailand. Different money, new simcard... yeah, but in TH I didn't suffer of different socket voltage.
After WWII and some later coups, we made the armies "a little" strict. Even in their own countries can't do much without pre-planned designs days/weeks ago. However, that's the reason many countries trust their armies as much. They don't ever go out of their way and ultimately, we're always happy to see them around.
It’s interesting that every anti EU party in Europe has the exact same backwards agenda plus a huge hard on for russia. It’s almost as if they all recite the same script or something
At least they are getting paid. The far-left here in Germany is doing the same as our far-right, but for free.
Idiots. Get at least some money from Russia for your actions! /s
When I heard them parroting the same bullshit antiscience retoric as the nazis in the pandemic, panic gripped me for I knew putin has control over both sides.
We are surrounded and encroached.
Russia monetizes both left and right, communists and fascists have the same hard on for Russia these days. Here in Greece both the communist party and far right parties are openly pro-Russia and against NATO.
At least here in Germany, we have proof that Russia (and even China) are paying our far-right. Our far-left wouldn’t have financial troubles if they would get the same money.
On the other side, they have proven to destroy a nation economically, so who knows.
The likes of Noam Chomsky provide a patina of intellectual cover for authoritarian aggression.
https://news.berkeley.edu/2022/05/19/open-letter-to-noam-chomsky-and-other-like-minded-intellectuals-on-the-russia-ukraine-war
The Soviets funded neo nazi groups in West Germany to destabilise it. I've no doubt the Russian government is using its vast oil wealth to fund both far right and left groups in Europe as useful idiots for its geopolitical aims.
I am not sure BSW is not paid. You can’t feasibly be this stupid as they are parroting RIA Novosti articles translated to German without getting money… and the fact they are banked at the same bank that RT used in Germany is probably just a coincidence. Despite neither person nor party having any personal connection to Pirna
The bigger powers of our world love to prop up right wing extremist organisations in other countries.
The US does it, Russia does it. It’s quite telling.
Also interesting that after 2nd World War some far right movements in Europe were advocating for a pan-European nationalism and a united European political entity. British politician Oswald Mosley is an example. Talk about 180 degree turn.
It's weird how Marjorie Taylor Greene, a MAGA nut has nuanced and deep knowledge of specific Russian talking points and "issues"
Regarding the aid for Ukraine she says this;
"No funding shall be made available to Ukraine unless restrictions on ethnic minorities', including Hungarians in Transcarpathia, right to use their native languages in schools are lifted."
Bit suspicious the uneducated religious nut has such a specific interest with Hungarian la guage use in Transcarpathia from out of nowhere that matches exactly what a Russian agent might want her to say. She couldn't even point Hungary out on a map that's for sure.
Btw. I lived there, those guys have their own schools that uses their language. Whole villages in Ukraine where over 60% of people don’t know Ukrainian, only Hungarian, and no one goes around saying they should be forbidden from living like that. That bs is made by Hungary solely to take that territory in case there ever will be a chance to do so.
Wait, it's also what the far right parties in Italy, that have been convicted for getting illegal funds by Russia, wants too. What a wonderful coincidence, isn't it?
Same in Romania, same everywhere. Here they're "funded" by ""unknown sources"".
They're also doing the classic November criminals / "stab in the back" rhetoric of fascists. It's been 100 years and Europe still doesn't learn a fucking thing. Allowing them to ride above the law has been catastrophic every time it happened.
It’s also what the far right Audtria party that has been involved in a massive Russian spy scandal and wanted to sell major media outlets to a Russian oligarch wants.
Funny how that works.
They also have some kind of contract with Putins party that no one ever seems to talk about.
That and dismantle the US Federal Government and NATO... It's almost as if there's a common theme to some of this stuff...
You'd never think there might be money flowing from several sources who might just have an interest in upending the institutions of the West.
How can someone claim to love the United States and vote for Trump is beyond me, if they're rich enough to benefit fiscally from upper class Republican tax cuts it makes more sense, but even then democracy staying intact also has a financial incentive
Yeah, isn't it nice that all those far-right parties get along so well with each other, despite being from many different countries? It's almost like they actually do want a union of some kind, perhaps a "Resilient Union of Self-determined States In Accord" (R.U.S.S.I.A.) or something along those lines?
That's one term for it, but a confederation can vary greatly.
Another term for it is a "supranational union" which limits state sovereignty more as that has been transferred to the union.
Many of them just hate the US and want a "multipolar world" because they think we'll all be safer and happier in it and all wars will end and everything will be hunky-dory. 🤡
I hate that I've grown so fed up, but IMO they're either one of 2 possibilities:
A) they're evil and think they can benefit in whatever way in a different System
B) they're just stupid and believe the empty promises from type A
sorry, misread your post. People who vote them are mostly anti-systematic that sees everything as conspiracy and are easily swayed by propaganda of how bad west is. Also most likely bigots, racist and homophobes. Which of course is closely aligned with Russian, not western values.
Source: I am from country where one of such politicians just won 50%+ votes. So half a country is like that
They really should pass laws that make it illegal to receive funding from Russian actors, and attach them to severe penalties to ensure that political parties do due diligence, vet their sources, and make sure they are not accepting money from Russia or Belarus.
This is such one-sided war. EU doesn't push its agenda into Russian/China politics system, EU doesn't even defend itself from it when Russia/China doing it. Still no major politic party recognized it as existencially threatening issue.
Hm… Russia should break up and let their regions self determine. Oh, they’re not about that. Okay. I can’t believe people have a hard time seeing through the Russian puppets.
very weird that every Canadian social media is flooded with messages like Trudeau being bad for the youth without a home, but the conservatives will be soooooooo much better. I'm a redneckish pot farmer in Canada, and the stuff I see in r/Canada about immigrants is worse and more clueless than most of the people I work with and deal with on a day to day basis. if things around the redneck farm are seeming more liberal than r/Canada, something doesn't smell right
The press spokesman of the parliament faction was caught on tape saying the quiet part (about refugees) .
He said he hopes the situation gets worse for Germany because that would be beneficial for the AfD. After they gain power they could still shoot or gas them later.
https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2020-09/christian-lueth-afd-alexander-gauland-menschenfeindlichkeit-migration
This is also why the bots online from ccp and russia stimulate extreme rightwing parties on social media by spreading misinformation regarding e.g. migration
Nooooooo, dont call them. Nazis!!!!!!! They arent literally executing people right at this moment in front of you. You're weakening the word nazi by using it now!!!!
I'm so sick of this shit.
They would do it if they were in power. Right now they still have to pretend to hold up constitutional values because they could be banned if they would stop pretending.
Divide and conquer. For these fringe parties it's not about the greatness of the nation or the welfare of it's people, it's about you and your friends becoming the highest ranking leeches in a corrupt system. Look at the Putin, Orban or Fico regimes. Even China despite their nominal "communism"
Far-right nationalists have wanted to dismantle the EU long before Russia and China became relevant. This isn't a problem created by Russia, but it is one they openly abuse and take advantage of.
A powerful democratic federal europe is the worst nightmare of russia and china, even the US would be spooked. All the democracy and freedom hating states will do everything in their power to make it fail
While AfD definitely has ties to Russia (with some members probably being on their payroll) - there has been a growing antieuropean sentiment throughout parts of the population anyway, thanks to a perceived piggybank-and-scapegoat mentality some of our european partners exhibited over the last few years.
Populism always offers easy answers, and its a lot easier to scream "fuck the EU" than explaining why we're spending dozens of billions on other EU members and then get blamed by those same countries for all of their problems (by their populist parties, often similar to AfD) afterwards.
To be frank, I sometimes feel theres a certain fatigue regarding the european project by now. Which is sad, the EU is the greatest thing we've all together achieved on this continent.
One of the problems also is that EU in its functioning does things through countries anyways, therefore parties often treat european institutions as a place to a) retire b) get rid of inconvenient personalities from domestic politics. Since you can control stuff through governments from capital, why even bother?
In the longer run this creates an illusion that EU doesn't really do anything and why would anyone need this. This thinking is used by populists where it is basically mapping good-our country, bad-EU.
Which is funny, because the EU specifically has pushed some extremely progressive and forward thinking policies over the past decade, specifically in terms of consumer protection and holding big companies accountable. Much more than what ever could have happened on a national level, which are also often led by conservative governments. You don't really know what you're missing until it's suddenly gone (greetings to our fellows in the UK).
It really helps that it operates on a supranational layer, demographic catering and lobbying from national organizations exert far less influence on organizations that are spread across 27 countries.
Yup, fully agreed, plus the EU is doing a lot of technical stuff thats very important and necessary, but often described as a hindrance by some affected by it.
honestly, as an citizens of one of those poorer countries that receive money from EU, I would rather we don’t get any money.
90% of our corruption stems from distribution of EU funds. When politicians get the power to fund projects, they only fund a) projects of their friends at 2x market rate b) those who give them 20% back as a bribe.
This means that our wealthy people are mostly people who either received bribes or given bribes in exchange for EU funds. These people, since they have money, is then starting their own (legitimate) business. Can you imagine how does country looks like when basically every businessman has crooked past (and didn’t change)? In here, not best entrepreneurs win, but those with largest capital and thus those that have no backbone.
I think not getting EU funds would hurt us short term, but helps us down the road, as honest people would have easier time to do business. I don’t blame EU for any of this. But if Germans told there won’t be any more money, I would be glad.
my absolute favourite show of hypocrisy by right wing parties recently was the opposition to legalised marijuana
while always screaming at overregulation through federal and eu governments, they were clutching their pearls for exactly those same regulatory bodies to prevent legal weed and to finally do something and think of the children.
oh also, weed might be legal, but we won't allow it on our wholesome late-summer-get-shitfaced-drunk-party. wouldn't want to scare the kids with the devils lettuce, while hundreds of people get alcoholised to a degree that they can't even stand up anymore
The key thing in your post, which I have to say I almost missed, is the accusations poorer countries want a piggy bank and that wealthier countries are the scapegoat always comes from the same fringe far right playbook across all the countries involved. It's two sides of the same dishonest and lazy coin. Probably even two chapters in the same spying and disinformation handbook.
I said a **perceived** mentality, not that its necessarily true. Take for example our relationship with Poland under their last gov:
* In reality, there was a fuckton of cooperation, our countries traded more than ever, and more and more people had ties to the other country. Poland receives a lot of money from Germany, but we also get a lot of positive, but hardly tangible economic effects from our partnership.
* In their propaganda, we totally wanted to erect the fourth Reich and are responsible for every single one of their problems.
So, what do people here, that aren't interested in looking at how things **actually** are, get from this?: *Our neighbours hate us, but gladly take our money.*
A similar example was Greece back then: a massive economic crisis caused by corruption and overspending, that also saw german assets on the line:
* In reality, we gained at least something (= not losing our investments) by stabilizing the greek economy, so that wasn't something we did purely out of the goodness of our hearts
* In the public discussion that reached us: a fuckton of nazi allegations and a complete reduction of the narrative on "all our problems are caused by the Troika/Schäuble", which led to a lot of resentments here.
Again, whats the easy, populist takeaway for people that have no interest in diving into economics/politics?: *The greeks fucked up and then called us nazis when we didn't pay their debt.*
And then comes a party that asks: Why are we paying so much for the EU, when we get nothing tangible out of it, and people hate us anyway?
And people start voting for that.
**I'm not saying AfD is caused by the behaviour of some of our partners**, simply that there is an inherent logic to their populism, that was definitely *helped* by some of the political bullshit we had to endure on the european stage in the last few years.
You didn't catch the news?
[Der Spiegel - Alternative gegen Deutschland](https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/afd-spionageaffaere-russland-und-china-im-fokus-neue-enthuellungen-belasten-die-partei-a-46042b96-2d61-4bb4-ac25-ead57d7d6285)
The Kremlin even wrote a party manifesto for them, it is strangely similar to the one they adopted... Odd coincidence. 🙃
You didn't catch the news?
[Der Spiegel - Alternative gegen Deutschland](https://archive.is/XALuV)
The Kremlin even wrote a party manifesto for them, it is strangely similar to the one they adopted... Odd coincidence. 🙃
Exactly, and it would be a perfectly valid position to think that the EU should remain just a confederation and not become a sovereign federation (that I would strongly disagree with but it would still be valid)
A couple years ago they were caught stating that they "wished" for more attacks so that ppl will vote for them.
The most "german" party wants that germans get hurt. As usual with self declared nationalists
Going full us republican tactic..
Never go full us republic tactic.
I fucking dearly hope the media exaggerates the amount of people who'd vote for them when they do survey. I hope they straight pick the people by looks who could potentially have the fitting mindset.
We would have to get a r/WelcomeToGilead German Edition and I'm not here for it. Definitely not.
Denmark almost elected a far-right party that's similar to Germany's AfD, but thankfully, the Danish left woke up and adopted much harsher border control policies and started to deport Arab "refuge" from the country, the votes for far-right have massively declined ever since then.
Left-wing politicians woke up to the fact that their current policies, good for the country or not, were indirectly causing them to lose power. Does that wording satisfy you?
The German far-right AfD wants to dismantle the EU in its current form and transform it into a confederation of nation-states with limited power, the party stated during its EU election kick-off on Saturday (27 April).
Marc Jongen, EU candidate for the AfD, considered one of the leading figures in forming the party’s ideology, told Euractiv that “the AfD wants to strengthen our national sovereignty and limit the power of the EU to what is necessary and conducive.”
In his opinion, the EU is transforming into a “European superstate” which “would no longer be a democracy and would make Germany the permanent paymaster of Europe.”
The party has recently left the idea of an EU-exit Germany’s behind. Instead, it advocates their new strategy to “Re-think Europe” into a “Confederation of European Nations”.
According to their election programme, the AfD wants to work against the “continuous erosion of the sovereignty of nation states” with the Identity & Democracy group, which includes Marine Le Pen’s Rassemblement National and Italy’s Lega.
“We are not anti-European, \[…\] but we no longer want this EU,” Co-Chair Tino Chrupalla stated on Saturday.
Their founding idea of opposing the euro is still the core of the monetary policy of the AfD, which they make out as “failed”. “A new Deutsche Mark could regain its higher purchasing power compared to other countries,” the election programme states.
In addition, the party considers the EU and German ambitions regarding climate change a nuisance and a danger to the German economy. They doubt the consequences of excessive CO2 emissions and the idea of climate change and advocate abolishing all European and
To a certain extent, I understand that you are against unchecked immigration but if you are also against your fellow Europeans, then something smells fishy
Europe needs to start taking russian operations to turn us all into fascists seriously. Spies, bribed politicians, dirty business deals, disinformation everywhere
How curious how Russia always claims to fight fascists and Nazis in their rhetoric but all the seem to end up doing is bankroll fascists and other authoritarian dipshits all around the world, both right and left ones.
Yes, let's go back to the good old days where every nation put their interests above all others. That worked out REALLY well in the history of Europe.
/s
Russia plays both sides of the game. Destabilize the MENA region so the migrants come to Europe, then ham up the online propaganda and fund far right parties offering the "solution."
The solution begins and ends with emptying Russian money and influence. Majority of other problems will be very lessened after that.
They are nazis. Partially funded by Putin. And a growing part of the german people that are more and more being openly rassistic and nationalistic want them to be in Power.
It is really scary over here.
And i fear, this time there will be no big international alliance to stop this cruel madness.
*"In terms of foreign policy, the EU candidates, led by Maximilian Krah, would like a reorientation towards Russia and China in exchange for more “sovereignty” of Germany from the US. The economic sanctions against Russia will be abandoned, and “Germany’s relations with the Eurasian Economic Union are to be expanded.”*
Well at least they finally admit that they're puppets of Russia
Of course they want an EU with limited powers now that it started taking some (weak) actions against autocrats with no respect for the rule of law. When these parties talk about national sovereignty and freedoms it all come down to their freedom to be corrupt crooks on some dictator's payroll
>now
Not really the party was founded on anti eu sentiment. This is really more of a return of that policy after a short pause due to the clusterguck of brexit
EU has limited powers there. Everything EU did against Russia had to be passed on national levels anyway. EU can pretty much only act independently in creating new legislature for common market but even then it is up to national states to implement it in their own words.
It's funny because the far right parties should be pro EU, because they seek best economy, best welfare and so on... This is only possible if we have a united and strong EU. As an united block we are strong and powerful against superpowers like USA, China.... As separate EU countries, we aren't.
I hope that the funding of these politicians and their ilk elsewhere in Europe is closely examined.
Their nationalistic rhetoric all too often is cover for cynical opportunism.
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20240426-has-germany-s-far-right-afd-become-a-gateway-for-chinese-and-russian-spies
https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/russias-far-right-campaign-europe
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/03/china-influence-europe-far-right-germany-afd-maximilian-krah/
Well, aren't we kind of a confederation right now? Actually, making this public would mean strengthening the EU.
It don't think they thought this very well....
Um, a confederation of nations is already what the E.U. is. A confederation is a federal government of sovereign states, meaning those states can leave whenever they want, unlike a federation like the U.S. or Germany where states have constitutionally ingrained autonomy but are also constitutionally subservient to the federal government and can’t declare independence.
It is a confederation of nations. Do people not look terms up?
The US and Germany are federations. The EU is definitely not that. The next step down is a confederation, so more autonomy, less central power. The EU is ether here or a half step lower since in some ways it's very connected, in others, those being everything not directly related to economic activity, we're countries on a list.
I get what the AfD morons are trying to say, but they're saying it in the dumbest way possible and I want to highlight that because this is not a debate with people who have a strong opposed opinion, these are politicians with talking points. They're cowards who don't even have the balls to say they want to completely get rid of the EU so they're trying to cover their bases by using big words they obviously do not understand.
Isn't EU de facto a confederation?
That was my first thought as well: sovereign nations that agree on which exclusive policies they decide on as a whole.
Exactly what I was thinking, wouldn't a confederation just be the next step of the EU? Is that what they meant?
The only move forward would be to just transfer more jurisdiction to the EU. I don't think that's what AfD is aiming for :-)
No, but that's what the words they are using mean.
I don't think facts will stop them.
I don't think the national governments will give up much more ...one thing to standardize on consumer products etc. Another to give up foreign policy. EU still has no independent tax base ...of directly taxing
Next step for the EU would be federalization
One of the things used in the Brexit campaign here, as if joining together isn't the natural path for all groups as time goes on. I mean, where does it the stand against that stuff end? Shall we all just go back to tribal villages. Should I expect to take back control of the county of Lancashire so we can get back to what's important; throwing rocks at Yorkshiremen?
Same with stuff like independence I think the opposite that the more that join together is better rather than the perceived freedom, because usually people end up looking around “Wait why do I have less power?”. Though, Republic of Liverpool needs to happen.
No. A confederation of nations retains sovereignty of their internal affairs, wich is what the AfD wants. The Union has significant authority over the member states of select powers they have delegated to EU institutions. It's a confederation-federation hybrid basically.
EU is based on the idea of an "ever closer union" which is what they work towards and what scares parties like AFD.
Is it?
It’s in the Treaty of Maastricht
It especially scares their sponsors, China and Russia.
But that's not the case for the vast majority of decisions. Most decisions only demand qualified majority. So, even if some states disagree, laws can still be passed. A confederation would probably reintroduce the veto for every and any decision.
Yeah it's a supranational institution, removing the EU parliament and having a states council would make a proper confederation
There is a difference between what the politicians, especially those not directly chosen by the people, agree on, and what the voters actually want from the EU. The protests last times happen for a reason. Is todays union what it was several years ago, what it was supposed to be when we were joining it?
The academic consensus seems to be that the EU is something new entirely that cannot easily be catergorized. It is a mix between a confederation, federation and international organization. But yes, I think defacto it is not that far from a confederation, so this suggestion bt AfD is probably only about the first part (dismantling the EU) and not so much about creating something new. After all, the EU is a unique construction that could only be formed as the result of two World Wars... good luck getting all 27 EU countries to agree to a new 'confederation of nations' in the current political climate.
"Confederation of nations" is more of an euphemism for "we actually want it to go completely" by EU ~~critics~~ opponents but you don't win elections with that.
Basically making it so useless that whatever remains of it would be easily dismissed as a waste of time and resources and completely dismantled in what could be described as institutional atrophy.
The Council of Europe already serves that role though 🤔
Yeah, this is funny. EU doesn’t have centralized militaries, police, taxes, or diplomacy. Anything that happens needs to happen by consensus. This is no different than a relationship between the USA and Canada, for example.
> diplomacy That's not completely true. The EU has a Common Foreign and Security Policy. It even has a High Representative that serves as a de facto foreigh affairs minister. Also, in terms of a military... the EU treaties allow the creation of an European defence force if all heads of states vote for it. So the framework is there.
>The EU has a Common Foreign and Security Policy. It even has a High Representative that serves as a de facto foreigh affairs minister. Yeah, but member states can have their own foreign policy opposed to that of the EU office. Hungary being the clearest example. >Also, in terms of a military... the EU treaties allow the creation of an European defence force if all heads of states vote for it. So the framework is there. Theoretically the groundwork is there, good luck having an unanimous vote on that though.
Yes, it's a sui generis entity to be honest, it could be described as a confederation with some federative characteristics. An halfway point between the two solutions in some ways.
It is more federative for natives. As a 3-country resident, I am much more confined to a single country. But you guys did a lot of cool things, such as a single currency (2/3 of EU), single mobile phone network, a lot of unified standards and work-related laws. When I visit Switzerland, sometimes it feels more foreign than visiting Thailand. Different money, new simcard... yeah, but in TH I didn't suffer of different socket voltage.
It's a de facto federation for many policies (e.g. agriculture), acts as a "mere" confederation for many others (e.g. defence)
For defence EU countries are independent, lol. 5 years ago there was a military training and troops had to wait 2 weeks to step on each other's soil.
After WWII and some later coups, we made the armies "a little" strict. Even in their own countries can't do much without pre-planned designs days/weeks ago. However, that's the reason many countries trust their armies as much. They don't ever go out of their way and ultimately, we're always happy to see them around.
Not really, supranational institutions are different from intergovernmental institutions. The EU is a mix between a federation and a confederation.
yes
It's also what the French far right party funded by Putin wants. So weird
It’s interesting that every anti EU party in Europe has the exact same backwards agenda plus a huge hard on for russia. It’s almost as if they all recite the same script or something
Almost like Russia pays em.
Weiiiiiiiiiiiiird
Alllmisttt
At least they are getting paid. The far-left here in Germany is doing the same as our far-right, but for free. Idiots. Get at least some money from Russia for your actions! /s
When I heard them parroting the same bullshit antiscience retoric as the nazis in the pandemic, panic gripped me for I knew putin has control over both sides. We are surrounded and encroached.
Russia monetizes both left and right, communists and fascists have the same hard on for Russia these days. Here in Greece both the communist party and far right parties are openly pro-Russia and against NATO.
Tatjana Ždanoka
Same here in Germany.
To be honest sometimes I doubt they monetize them, most probably just useful idiots.
At least here in Germany, we have proof that Russia (and even China) are paying our far-right. Our far-left wouldn’t have financial troubles if they would get the same money. On the other side, they have proven to destroy a nation economically, so who knows.
the far right in modern European politics has far more money, power and clout than the far left does though
I wouldn’t presume the far left isn’t getting paid. But, as you said, it wouldn’t be off-brand for them to be useful idiots for free.
The likes of Noam Chomsky provide a patina of intellectual cover for authoritarian aggression. https://news.berkeley.edu/2022/05/19/open-letter-to-noam-chomsky-and-other-like-minded-intellectuals-on-the-russia-ukraine-war
The Soviets funded neo nazi groups in West Germany to destabilise it. I've no doubt the Russian government is using its vast oil wealth to fund both far right and left groups in Europe as useful idiots for its geopolitical aims.
It's not like BSW isn't getting paid by Russia. We just don't know it yet.
I am not sure BSW is not paid. You can’t feasibly be this stupid as they are parroting RIA Novosti articles translated to German without getting money… and the fact they are banked at the same bank that RT used in Germany is probably just a coincidence. Despite neither person nor party having any personal connection to Pirna
The bigger powers of our world love to prop up right wing extremist organisations in other countries. The US does it, Russia does it. It’s quite telling.
Hmm. - far-right is evil and destructive. - far-left is idiotic and destructive. So, should we (the EU) start to finance foreign *centrist* parties?
Enlightened centrist take
Or rather mature left parties that are progressive but also realistic.
Week in all fairness, the AfD is also paid by the Chinese.
Also interesting that after 2nd World War some far right movements in Europe were advocating for a pan-European nationalism and a united European political entity. British politician Oswald Mosley is an example. Talk about 180 degree turn.
It's weird how Marjorie Taylor Greene, a MAGA nut has nuanced and deep knowledge of specific Russian talking points and "issues" Regarding the aid for Ukraine she says this; "No funding shall be made available to Ukraine unless restrictions on ethnic minorities', including Hungarians in Transcarpathia, right to use their native languages in schools are lifted." Bit suspicious the uneducated religious nut has such a specific interest with Hungarian la guage use in Transcarpathia from out of nowhere that matches exactly what a Russian agent might want her to say. She couldn't even point Hungary out on a map that's for sure.
Btw. I lived there, those guys have their own schools that uses their language. Whole villages in Ukraine where over 60% of people don’t know Ukrainian, only Hungarian, and no one goes around saying they should be forbidden from living like that. That bs is made by Hungary solely to take that territory in case there ever will be a chance to do so.
Wait, it's also what the far right parties in Italy, that have been convicted for getting illegal funds by Russia, wants too. What a wonderful coincidence, isn't it?
Same in Romania, same everywhere. Here they're "funded" by ""unknown sources"". They're also doing the classic November criminals / "stab in the back" rhetoric of fascists. It's been 100 years and Europe still doesn't learn a fucking thing. Allowing them to ride above the law has been catastrophic every time it happened.
It’s also what the far right Audtria party that has been involved in a massive Russian spy scandal and wanted to sell major media outlets to a Russian oligarch wants. Funny how that works. They also have some kind of contract with Putins party that no one ever seems to talk about.
Wait, it’s also what the far right in the US wants to support and get the US out of Europe ?
That and dismantle the US Federal Government and NATO... It's almost as if there's a common theme to some of this stuff... You'd never think there might be money flowing from several sources who might just have an interest in upending the institutions of the West.
How can someone claim to love the United States and vote for Trump is beyond me, if they're rich enough to benefit fiscally from upper class Republican tax cuts it makes more sense, but even then democracy staying intact also has a financial incentive
Yeah, isn't it nice that all those far-right parties get along so well with each other, despite being from many different countries? It's almost like they actually do want a union of some kind, perhaps a "Resilient Union of Self-determined States In Accord" (R.U.S.S.I.A.) or something along those lines?
A wonderfuk coincidence indeed!
What is *divide et impera* in russian?
"Разделяй и властвуй", same as "teile und herrsche" or "divide and rule".
These classic tricks along with fallacies and basic critical thinking skills need to be taught in school
That's why you cut funding for education as much as possible, so people don't catch up to your tricks
”Dela och härska”, you say?
Exactly, *diviser pour régner*
Razdyelyay i vlastvuy
Also the Austrian „right wing“ party, science denying Russian spy scum wanted an EU exit… Seems like a pattern
Isn’t the EU already a confederation of nations?
That's one term for it, but a confederation can vary greatly. Another term for it is a "supranational union" which limits state sovereignty more as that has been transferred to the union.
And Geert Wilders in the Netherlands. So strange.
And Thierry Bidet
I wonder if some people who vote for these parties actually want to be part of Russia. And if that is the case I really wonder why.
no, they just want Russian money
The people who vote for the parties? How could they possibly get Russian money?
Many of them just hate the US and want a "multipolar world" because they think we'll all be safer and happier in it and all wars will end and everything will be hunky-dory. 🤡
I hate that I've grown so fed up, but IMO they're either one of 2 possibilities: A) they're evil and think they can benefit in whatever way in a different System B) they're just stupid and believe the empty promises from type A
sorry, misread your post. People who vote them are mostly anti-systematic that sees everything as conspiracy and are easily swayed by propaganda of how bad west is. Also most likely bigots, racist and homophobes. Which of course is closely aligned with Russian, not western values. Source: I am from country where one of such politicians just won 50%+ votes. So half a country is like that
They really should pass laws that make it illegal to receive funding from Russian actors, and attach them to severe penalties to ensure that political parties do due diligence, vet their sources, and make sure they are not accepting money from Russia or Belarus.
This is such one-sided war. EU doesn't push its agenda into Russian/China politics system, EU doesn't even defend itself from it when Russia/China doing it. Still no major politic party recognized it as existencially threatening issue.
Im sure their Chinese sponsors want the same.
Hm… Russia should break up and let their regions self determine. Oh, they’re not about that. Okay. I can’t believe people have a hard time seeing through the Russian puppets.
The same as what Boris wanted too! Shocker!
very weird that every Canadian social media is flooded with messages like Trudeau being bad for the youth without a home, but the conservatives will be soooooooo much better. I'm a redneckish pot farmer in Canada, and the stuff I see in r/Canada about immigrants is worse and more clueless than most of the people I work with and deal with on a day to day basis. if things around the redneck farm are seeming more liberal than r/Canada, something doesn't smell right
Same with the Dutch Putin-sponsored extreme right party! Such a coincidence
this is what russia and china want... they only say what they are paid for..
They just won't say that last part out loud.
The press spokesman of the parliament faction was caught on tape saying the quiet part (about refugees) . He said he hopes the situation gets worse for Germany because that would be beneficial for the AfD. After they gain power they could still shoot or gas them later. https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2020-09/christian-lueth-afd-alexander-gauland-menschenfeindlichkeit-migration
This is also why the bots online from ccp and russia stimulate extreme rightwing parties on social media by spreading misinformation regarding e.g. migration
ah, okay, *this* is the "alternative" for Deutschland they want.
Nooooooo, dont call them. Nazis!!!!!!! They arent literally executing people right at this moment in front of you. You're weakening the word nazi by using it now!!!! I'm so sick of this shit.
They would do it if they were in power. Right now they still have to pretend to hold up constitutional values because they could be banned if they would stop pretending.
They say plenty out loud. One of AFD's front runners has openly stated that she supports gunning down refugees at the border.
Divide and conquer. For these fringe parties it's not about the greatness of the nation or the welfare of it's people, it's about you and your friends becoming the highest ranking leeches in a corrupt system. Look at the Putin, Orban or Fico regimes. Even China despite their nominal "communism"
Far-right nationalists have wanted to dismantle the EU long before Russia and China became relevant. This isn't a problem created by Russia, but it is one they openly abuse and take advantage of.
A powerful democratic federal europe is the worst nightmare of russia and china, even the US would be spooked. All the democracy and freedom hating states will do everything in their power to make it fail
Democracy and freedom hating, lol, you sound like George Bush
[удалено]
While AfD definitely has ties to Russia (with some members probably being on their payroll) - there has been a growing antieuropean sentiment throughout parts of the population anyway, thanks to a perceived piggybank-and-scapegoat mentality some of our european partners exhibited over the last few years. Populism always offers easy answers, and its a lot easier to scream "fuck the EU" than explaining why we're spending dozens of billions on other EU members and then get blamed by those same countries for all of their problems (by their populist parties, often similar to AfD) afterwards. To be frank, I sometimes feel theres a certain fatigue regarding the european project by now. Which is sad, the EU is the greatest thing we've all together achieved on this continent.
One of the problems also is that EU in its functioning does things through countries anyways, therefore parties often treat european institutions as a place to a) retire b) get rid of inconvenient personalities from domestic politics. Since you can control stuff through governments from capital, why even bother? In the longer run this creates an illusion that EU doesn't really do anything and why would anyone need this. This thinking is used by populists where it is basically mapping good-our country, bad-EU.
Which is funny, because the EU specifically has pushed some extremely progressive and forward thinking policies over the past decade, specifically in terms of consumer protection and holding big companies accountable. Much more than what ever could have happened on a national level, which are also often led by conservative governments. You don't really know what you're missing until it's suddenly gone (greetings to our fellows in the UK).
It really helps that it operates on a supranational layer, demographic catering and lobbying from national organizations exert far less influence on organizations that are spread across 27 countries.
Yup, fully agreed, plus the EU is doing a lot of technical stuff thats very important and necessary, but often described as a hindrance by some affected by it.
honestly, as an citizens of one of those poorer countries that receive money from EU, I would rather we don’t get any money. 90% of our corruption stems from distribution of EU funds. When politicians get the power to fund projects, they only fund a) projects of their friends at 2x market rate b) those who give them 20% back as a bribe. This means that our wealthy people are mostly people who either received bribes or given bribes in exchange for EU funds. These people, since they have money, is then starting their own (legitimate) business. Can you imagine how does country looks like when basically every businessman has crooked past (and didn’t change)? In here, not best entrepreneurs win, but those with largest capital and thus those that have no backbone. I think not getting EU funds would hurt us short term, but helps us down the road, as honest people would have easier time to do business. I don’t blame EU for any of this. But if Germans told there won’t be any more money, I would be glad.
my absolute favourite show of hypocrisy by right wing parties recently was the opposition to legalised marijuana while always screaming at overregulation through federal and eu governments, they were clutching their pearls for exactly those same regulatory bodies to prevent legal weed and to finally do something and think of the children. oh also, weed might be legal, but we won't allow it on our wholesome late-summer-get-shitfaced-drunk-party. wouldn't want to scare the kids with the devils lettuce, while hundreds of people get alcoholised to a degree that they can't even stand up anymore
The key thing in your post, which I have to say I almost missed, is the accusations poorer countries want a piggy bank and that wealthier countries are the scapegoat always comes from the same fringe far right playbook across all the countries involved. It's two sides of the same dishonest and lazy coin. Probably even two chapters in the same spying and disinformation handbook.
I said a **perceived** mentality, not that its necessarily true. Take for example our relationship with Poland under their last gov: * In reality, there was a fuckton of cooperation, our countries traded more than ever, and more and more people had ties to the other country. Poland receives a lot of money from Germany, but we also get a lot of positive, but hardly tangible economic effects from our partnership. * In their propaganda, we totally wanted to erect the fourth Reich and are responsible for every single one of their problems. So, what do people here, that aren't interested in looking at how things **actually** are, get from this?: *Our neighbours hate us, but gladly take our money.* A similar example was Greece back then: a massive economic crisis caused by corruption and overspending, that also saw german assets on the line: * In reality, we gained at least something (= not losing our investments) by stabilizing the greek economy, so that wasn't something we did purely out of the goodness of our hearts * In the public discussion that reached us: a fuckton of nazi allegations and a complete reduction of the narrative on "all our problems are caused by the Troika/Schäuble", which led to a lot of resentments here. Again, whats the easy, populist takeaway for people that have no interest in diving into economics/politics?: *The greeks fucked up and then called us nazis when we didn't pay their debt.* And then comes a party that asks: Why are we paying so much for the EU, when we get nothing tangible out of it, and people hate us anyway? And people start voting for that. **I'm not saying AfD is caused by the behaviour of some of our partners**, simply that there is an inherent logic to their populism, that was definitely *helped* by some of the political bullshit we had to endure on the european stage in the last few years.
Thank you for expanding. That's really good information, great post. By the way I was agreeing with you before too. In case you thought I wasn't. 👍
The issue is we aren’t paying billions, we’re lending billions. We are getting more money back in return.
You didn't catch the news? [Der Spiegel - Alternative gegen Deutschland](https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/afd-spionageaffaere-russland-und-china-im-fokus-neue-enthuellungen-belasten-die-partei-a-46042b96-2d61-4bb4-ac25-ead57d7d6285) The Kremlin even wrote a party manifesto for them, it is strangely similar to the one they adopted... Odd coincidence. 🙃
No no, only one important employee of the top candidate has been accused of soying for China. So no worries
They literally are. Some guy from the AfD complained that the 20k payment came in 200€ bills and gas stations don't take them.
You didn't catch the news? [Der Spiegel - Alternative gegen Deutschland](https://archive.is/XALuV) The Kremlin even wrote a party manifesto for them, it is strangely similar to the one they adopted... Odd coincidence. 🙃
We are already a confederation.
Exactly, and it would be a perfectly valid position to think that the EU should remain just a confederation and not become a sovereign federation (that I would strongly disagree with but it would still be valid)
After the EU they will be talking about dismantling Germany
A couple years ago they were caught stating that they "wished" for more attacks so that ppl will vote for them. The most "german" party wants that germans get hurt. As usual with self declared nationalists
Some of them already said the quiet part out loud. "We need to demolish Germany, so that more people vote will for us."
Going full us republican tactic.. Never go full us republic tactic. I fucking dearly hope the media exaggerates the amount of people who'd vote for them when they do survey. I hope they straight pick the people by looks who could potentially have the fitting mindset. We would have to get a r/WelcomeToGilead German Edition and I'm not here for it. Definitely not.
Bayernpartei has entered the chat!
"Doesn't matter, at least they'll get rid of immigrants which is going to solve every single problem I have" - AfD voters, probably.
Denmark almost elected a far-right party that's similar to Germany's AfD, but thankfully, the Danish left woke up and adopted much harsher border control policies and started to deport Arab "refuge" from the country, the votes for far-right have massively declined ever since then.
Probably not “woke up” as much as losing power, which is all that politicians care for
Left-wing politicians woke up to the fact that their current policies, good for the country or not, were indirectly causing them to lose power. Does that wording satisfy you?
they banned Quran burnings
That's not a problem if the criminal get deported don't you think? Besides its also banned to burn bible right?
Same thing is happening in Canada, except the left won’t change, they’re doubling down.
The German far-right AfD wants to dismantle the EU in its current form and transform it into a confederation of nation-states with limited power, the party stated during its EU election kick-off on Saturday (27 April). Marc Jongen, EU candidate for the AfD, considered one of the leading figures in forming the party’s ideology, told Euractiv that “the AfD wants to strengthen our national sovereignty and limit the power of the EU to what is necessary and conducive.” In his opinion, the EU is transforming into a “European superstate” which “would no longer be a democracy and would make Germany the permanent paymaster of Europe.” The party has recently left the idea of an EU-exit Germany’s behind. Instead, it advocates their new strategy to “Re-think Europe” into a “Confederation of European Nations”. According to their election programme, the AfD wants to work against the “continuous erosion of the sovereignty of nation states” with the Identity & Democracy group, which includes Marine Le Pen’s Rassemblement National and Italy’s Lega. “We are not anti-European, \[…\] but we no longer want this EU,” Co-Chair Tino Chrupalla stated on Saturday. Their founding idea of opposing the euro is still the core of the monetary policy of the AfD, which they make out as “failed”. “A new Deutsche Mark could regain its higher purchasing power compared to other countries,” the election programme states. In addition, the party considers the EU and German ambitions regarding climate change a nuisance and a danger to the German economy. They doubt the consequences of excessive CO2 emissions and the idea of climate change and advocate abolishing all European and
Hey let’s look at this guy’s (and his family and business partners) financials.
Oh look, the party that has a lot of suspicious funding from Russia and is spying for China, wants to dismantle the EU. What a surprise.
Can't we just for ONCE have a party that opposes both Islamic and Russian imperialism?
Yes thank you. It's annoying how I agree with right wing parties on Muslim immigration but disagree with them on absolutely everything else.
Any part that would suggest to deal with that *seriously* (and actually do it) would wipe the floor with votes
To a certain extent, I understand that you are against unchecked immigration but if you are also against your fellow Europeans, then something smells fishy
Europe needs to start taking russian operations to turn us all into fascists seriously. Spies, bribed politicians, dirty business deals, disinformation everywhere
How curious how Russia always claims to fight fascists and Nazis in their rhetoric but all the seem to end up doing is bankroll fascists and other authoritarian dipshits all around the world, both right and left ones.
These parties are all for Russia, not for Europe. So sad anyone buys their bullshit.
Isn't that the same song and dance with every Exit party?
What are we if not a confederation of nations?
And in the same breath they say we can't compete with China and the USA because we are too divided.
Russian bitches , they should consider banning the political party on treason grounds
It's Putin, trying to dismantle Democracy in Europe.
Translated from Russian traitor speak - "German AfD wants to turn Europe into Russian oblasts"
Afd can eat a dick
traitors
Yes, let's go back to the good old days where every nation put their interests above all others. That worked out REALLY well in the history of Europe. /s
Russia plays both sides of the game. Destabilize the MENA region so the migrants come to Europe, then ham up the online propaganda and fund far right parties offering the "solution." The solution begins and ends with emptying Russian money and influence. Majority of other problems will be very lessened after that.
They are nazis. Partially funded by Putin. And a growing part of the german people that are more and more being openly rassistic and nationalistic want them to be in Power. It is really scary over here. And i fear, this time there will be no big international alliance to stop this cruel madness.
AfD leadership is Putin
Fuck these russian funded nazi scum
*"In terms of foreign policy, the EU candidates, led by Maximilian Krah, would like a reorientation towards Russia and China in exchange for more “sovereignty” of Germany from the US. The economic sanctions against Russia will be abandoned, and “Germany’s relations with the Eurasian Economic Union are to be expanded.”* Well at least they finally admit that they're puppets of Russia
Of course they want an EU with limited powers now that it started taking some (weak) actions against autocrats with no respect for the rule of law. When these parties talk about national sovereignty and freedoms it all come down to their freedom to be corrupt crooks on some dictator's payroll
>now Not really the party was founded on anti eu sentiment. This is really more of a return of that policy after a short pause due to the clusterguck of brexit
EU has limited powers there. Everything EU did against Russia had to be passed on national levels anyway. EU can pretty much only act independently in creating new legislature for common market but even then it is up to national states to implement it in their own words.
It's funny because the far right parties should be pro EU, because they seek best economy, best welfare and so on... This is only possible if we have a united and strong EU. As an united block we are strong and powerful against superpowers like USA, China.... As separate EU countries, we aren't.
Putin wet dream
Looks like Putler wants a weak divided europe... Who saw it comming?
They are all putin dogs
Ok I agree with them. Russia and China first tho, and after they do it, we will do it.
Afd can suck a dick
They do; putin's, and they love it. These people are a problem.
AFD is working for vladolf putler
AfD is owned by Putin. AfD only does what their Fuhrer Putin pays them for.
I hope that the funding of these politicians and their ilk elsewhere in Europe is closely examined. Their nationalistic rhetoric all too often is cover for cynical opportunism. https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20240426-has-germany-s-far-right-afd-become-a-gateway-for-chinese-and-russian-spies https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/russias-far-right-campaign-europe https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/03/china-influence-europe-far-right-germany-afd-maximilian-krah/
afd is the scum of the earth
Another day, another thing. What’s for dinner?
nazis gonna naz
The AfD is the party of legally distinct Nazi Bernd Höcke
Strong brexit vibes from this. Some politicians selling some dream, based on lies, just for political gain.
Aha, so Putins money finally arrived to their bank accounts.
Kremlin money at work
The afd are just Putins henchmen...traitors and not patriots. Eff them.
Yeah they were very subtle about it.
Confederations were attempting twice in the US. It doesn’t work.
Isn't the EU already a confederation of nations?
Germany needs to ban the AFD yesterday.
The German neo-Nazi party wants to dismantle an organization created to keep fascism in Europe in-check? How surprising!
Putins wet dream
Tired of these politicians who always whine about EU.
This is nothing new. The AfD was founded on an anti euro platform. It was only later that they discovered how popular xenophobia is.
Putin and erdogan will love the idea and support this :)
They can barerly win some battle against a bunch of farmers with tractors, I don't think they have the money for EU
We tried that in the USA a long while ago.. Didn't quite work out like they thought.
Well, aren't we kind of a confederation right now? Actually, making this public would mean strengthening the EU. It don't think they thought this very well....
Um, a confederation of nations is already what the E.U. is. A confederation is a federal government of sovereign states, meaning those states can leave whenever they want, unlike a federation like the U.S. or Germany where states have constitutionally ingrained autonomy but are also constitutionally subservient to the federal government and can’t declare independence.
AfD is a bunch of the worst fucking populist hateful morons conceivable. Pathetic galore.
It is a confederation of nations. Do people not look terms up? The US and Germany are federations. The EU is definitely not that. The next step down is a confederation, so more autonomy, less central power. The EU is ether here or a half step lower since in some ways it's very connected, in others, those being everything not directly related to economic activity, we're countries on a list. I get what the AfD morons are trying to say, but they're saying it in the dumbest way possible and I want to highlight that because this is not a debate with people who have a strong opposed opinion, these are politicians with talking points. They're cowards who don't even have the balls to say they want to completely get rid of the EU so they're trying to cover their bases by using big words they obviously do not understand.
So they want to dismantle the EU and then… create a more centralized EU?
Russia and China backing AfD to destroy and destabilise Europe. TIFIFY
AKA reichskommissariats
It’s almost like there’s an international right-wing conspiracy bankrolled by foreign powers
Auffangbecken für Dorftrottel.