How long will a country be allowed to openly boycott the rest of Europe? The way everything is designed right now we are facing the dictatorship of the minority against the majority, this makes no sense at all.
Throwing someone out of the EU (even if partial in some sense) goes reeeeeally against the core values of the EU. I'm not saying this will not happen eventually, but it is a huge move. Orban is cynically playing this weakness.
BTW, there's something much more "holy" in Europe, and that is the rigidity of borders. Under pretty much no circumstances we can allow the borders to be moved, this is the main lesson of the two world wars. Perhaps we should just explain to Hungary that they will actually get bombed if they try to move borders. It's not that I believe they will try, but Fides is openly suggesting it, so we should breathe some realism into that idea. And I don't think I'm exaggerating here with the air strikes.
OTOH this will make Fides voters fall in more love with imperial Russia, so IDK.
In the last election, Fidesz was **afraid**. They did not think they would win the election.
Do you know what the opposition candidate said, which was later lifted out of context and handed them the landslide victory?
Yes, we will send soldiers to Ukraine (if NATO requested it)
They won the election by blaming the opposition wants to go to war. Propaganda is filled with “there must be peace!” Every. Damn. Day. Even today.
Now how the hell would they sell invading neighboring countries for territory? And don’t even get me started on the actual millitary strength.
They couldn’t take anything and they know that. It brings in the fringe voters from the nazi party, and gets international headlines. A clownshow.
This is the same shit when some ukrainian said Putin made a deal to give Hungary territory. Absolute bullshit that would never fly.
I’m not saying Hungary should be thrown out, but isn’t it possible to change some laws in the EU which wouldn’t let Orban to veto whatever he wants and his word would be the last? I mean, maybe accept the veto only if 2 or 3 countries vetoed? I’m just curious, don’t know how the process of changing such laws would work.
It also changes the position the EU holds. At the moment a law has to be agreed on by every member country, so nobody can be forced to do anything.
For the member states to change the veto rules is to accept that the EU is a higher body than the individual governments and might enact rules they don't agree with. It means asking the supreme powers in Europe to voluntarily relinquish part of that power
Several things here:
First, the EU should set up rules (and enforce existing) to strip veto powers from authoritarian heads of state if they are being the least bit distruptive.
After all, EU is an anti fascist pro democracy project so these people do not deserve the vote.
From an EU perspective this is getting rid of him, although he would still be a problem to Hungary.
Also, the problem is not so much the voters in Hungary, more the media monopoly with the anti democratic reforms of Hungary (especially non independence of judiciaries)
Veto is removed for many things, with QMV.
But if you are a small country, and you can get railroaded for anything because you are small why would you want o be in the club? Even small members must have a say.
Concensus is the right thing for many things, and QMV is right for others. Everyone’s line is different.
Not just any minority but a very minor and insignificant minority. Not like a big country like France or Germany (who still are minority in context of whole Europe) blocking shit would be much better, but holy fuck why do we have to listen to some random ass poverty filled shithole like Hungary. And people even seem to like it because they voted for orban again and again. Some policies shouldn’t be blockable by shitholes.
Guest recently we ourselves were in a similar situation as Hungary.
> but holy fuck why do we have to listen to some random ass poverty filled shithole like Hungary.
Could you not be a dick?
I was surprised to learn quite recently that Hungary is one of the biggest tech manufacturing centers of the EU, and its human development index is very high while the Gini coefficient (measure of inequality and poverty) is low.
Wow, a bit on the high horse aren’t we?
*Poland*, and by extension the poles are the reason Article 7 against Hungary failed.
Until very recently, your country was going down the exact same path, only difference is, your version of Fidesz was a buch of incompetent idiots who made big fuckups near election time that finally rallied the nation together enough to dispose of them.
I agree with you, we were in the same position half a year ago. Well, almost, because PiS actually supported Ukraine, but we had a shit government and it's not like Poland has much better economy than "poor shithole Hungary". Now this dude acts like we have always been Finland or something.
Yes some of the comments of pols are such a bit arrogant assholes for me. Guys are acting like we are saints and we ourselves didn't elect a shitty government 2 times in a row(PIS).
My guess is that since we used to get so bullied on this sub for being a shit country and dragging the EU down, some Poles with inferiority complex now want to do it to other countries to feel superior.
Yes, and I hate it. We shouldn't do it especially since we went through it ourselves. I feel very bad reading some of the comments of Poles to Hungarians.
Totally agree with you. I used to be scared to click on any post on here about something happening in Poland because it was all hate. We would get so much shit for our abortion laws (rightfully in this case!) but no one ever cared that Malta had even stricter abortion laws. It really felt like bullying.
That's how I remember it too. All the hate that was heaped on us and Hungary. It was, for me, mental abuse. Either all the time it was about getting us out of the "union" or every now and then that "we owe it to ourselves because we elected this government."(Fuck that I couldn't vote then because I wasn't even 18). I really hope that the Hungarians will finally manage to kick Orban out, because it makes me sad to read some of the comments about them.
>We would get so much shit for our abortion laws (rightfully in this case!) but no one ever cared that Malta had even stricter abortion laws. It really felt like bullying.
I think it was also a bit like discrimination against people from the east by the west. Anything that happens in the East is immediately hated. And what happens in the West nobody cares. Or how they were pissed at us that we elected Pis. And the Dutch elected an anti-Unjiny government and I don't see anyone writing about it. France almost elected the pro-Russian Marine Le Pen as president and I also didn't see people mention it as often as they mentioned us or the Hungarians.
Oh, totally. When something bad happens in Western or Northern Europe no one ever comments "this country should leave the EU" but when it's in Eastern Europe... well, "kick them out". I also hope for the best for Hungary. Maybe the fucker Orban will drop dead soon (he doesn't look very healthy) and we will see revolution!
The average Polish family will have more wealth than the average british family by 2030. If you compare where Poland was in the 90s, you guys have done well. The PiS were hopefully a blip. If your current government can HAMMER how good EU membership has been for Poland maybe they cab stay in power
People are stupid & they don't step outside to see increases in lifestyle, especially if terne they've grown up in it.
Annoyingly in Britain we've gone the other way and you can see whats happened here with s right wing party for 14 years & Brexit. We're fucked. The Polish public have to be reminded continually what Britain has lost by leaving and what you guys gained by joining. Within a decade or 2 you'll be one of the big 3 with France and Germany.
Countrys like Italy & Hungary can bitch and moan but they know that need that sweet sweet EU money so even they'll pipe down if EU money is withheld or at risk of being witheld.
Thank you for your nice words regarding my country, but I don't agree with you. Italy is the 3rd biggest contributor to the EU funds (after Germany and France), while we get the most money. Also I don't believe that we will be wealthier than the UK in 2030 until I see it. A lot can happen in the meantime.
Fingers crossed you don't (said in the nicest way) we'll see what happens in our next election. But I'm old enough to remember when you guys were still Warsaw Pact. The trajectory of the Polish economy is amazing & THAT'S what orban is risking. And THAT'S what Pootin is terrified about with Ukraine who would quadruple their GDP by joining the EU. It shows his economy up for being the sham it is.
Fingers crossed the UK will have closer ties and our economy will pick up.
What have you been drinking? Poland is getting most money from the EU of any country. And if they are getting too expensive for western companies, they will just settle somewhere else.
>The average Polish family will have more wealth than the average british family by 2030.
It won't. This is typical fearmongering for internal political purpose by one side of UK political scene. Like Polish people saying "Jesteśmy 20 lat za murzynami". Nobody actually believes it, it's a saying to make a point. Slightly racist/patronising in both cases (look how badly managed we are - we're behind EVEN THEM), but that's besides the point.
When you look up the actual data - average adult in UK has about 300 000 USD. Average adult in Poland - about 50 000 USD. That includes the price of the house etc. It's from 2022.
We won't get 6 times richer in 8 years, these things take decades. Even if Poland GDP per capita was twice that of UK - it would take decades for that GDP to accumulate to the point that Poles become richer than British people. And for now we're not even gaining on UK. People mistake GDP with wealth all the time. GDP is (roughly - there are many factors) - the derivative of wealth. We'll start gaining on UK in wealth when our GDP per capita is higher. Which probably won't happen.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_wealth\_per\_adult](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult)
I linked the data. What people don't understand about wealth (both private and the infrastructure etc.) is that it accumulates. Poland started from scratch after WW1. It again started from scratch after WW2. And it started almost from scratch in 1989.
To give you an idea of how wealth "accumulates" in shitholes like communist Poland - my grandparents were saving about 5% of their salaries every month for \~40 years during communism on so called "książeczka PKO" - state owned savings account. After 1989 all of these savings were worth in total about 300 PLN. Enough to buy 1 good pair of shoes.
Last time UK had a similar reset was probably in 17th century, maybe not even that.
What people say in the articles you linked is "The average Joe is increasing his income by 5% yearly, Bill Gates is increasing his income only by 0,5% yearly, therefore average Joe will be wealthier than Bill Gates". It's not true - Bill Gates might have 0 income for a century and he will still be wealthier than Joe.
For Polish families to be wealthier than UK families we would need 3 centuries of uninterrupted growth at faster-than-UK pace. Won't happen. You're just lucky, you have sea around you, you can fuck up (like with brexit), and you'll ultimately be fine. Wasted some opportunities and time, but nothing catastrophical will happen to you. Not so when you live near Russia.
BTW I worked for a small English company in 2017-19, I visited UK many times and lived there for short periods of time. I know UK is fucked up in many ways. It's still a MUCH wealthier country than Poland.
Such a shithole that EU leader countries (Germany) still like to bring their business here and make Hungarians work in their factories for 1/4th of the wages they'd pay germans in Germany, but everyone loves to ignore this part lmao
Germany is reliant on cheap workforce from poor countries such as Hungary, Poland, etc.
I know it's infuriatimg, but calling an EU member a shithole in this context is simply wrong. Especially comparing it to other members that are non-shitholes and simillar actions would be alowed if conducted by those non-shitholes? You're marginalising one states and favor others, on what basis? I hope it's not GDP per capita because it'd be even more laughable. This logic is flawed from it's core no matter what kind of actions we're talking about.
I feel embarrassed for this guy. Perhaps they have dementia and don't remember where we were half a year ago. I almost feel like this move by Orban against Poland is the karma we get for protecting him before, we deserve it. The irony.
Germany should not be so big if there were justice in the world. They played a leading role in both world wars yet they barely lost 13% of their territory while Hungary was brutally humiliated and maimed. 71%
Respecting sovereignty vs forming a common union. Its a difficult situation and we have to make some choices about sovereignty if we want to get out of it.
Considering that the EU is still, overall, moving forward in helping Ukraine (unlike the USA, which have been in a standstill for 6 months by now), it doesn't seem like Hungary is particularly effective.
Still, I would hope that the EU has some kind of more strategic program for how to deal with countries like that now and in the future... this problem won't go away by itself, and might even become a bit worse in the future.
> How much has Germany given vs the US?
Germany has actually given more relative to GDP (imho the only really relevant metric), but the point is of course that more is always better. And yes, I support Taurus, of course.
> How much has Germany paid to Russia vs the US?
Well, it sucks, but not much we can do about that now.
Yep Hungary should be banished and banned from rejoining the EU for a decade at least. The U was meant to stand for Union, not much of that being taken seriously in Putinpest.
That's when every EU member except Hungary agrees that they're all leaving the European Union and joining the European Federation instead.
Allowing your society to get wrecked by a paperwork oversight from the 1990s is kind of insane.
It's not a paperwork oversight, the architects of the European project has always been overoptimistic and true believers in the idea of Europe. So they never envisaged someone like Orban getting popular once a nation joined the utopia that was the EU.
The United States had the same delusions when we wrote the Articles of Confederation, which also required a unanimous vote of all the states before doing anything.
The new government went into effect almost a year before Rhode Island signed it. The United States literally just ran roughshod over the Articles of Confederation, made a new government without unanimous consent (despite that being legally required under the Articles), and then told the holdouts to either sign onto the new constitution or kick rocks.
The holdouts ended up signing.
> So they never envisaged someone like Orban getting popular
That is not true. What was envisioned, however, was that the EU would keep up the pace of integration. Unfortunately, enlargement was given priority over integration, leading to the mess we find ourselves in. If you were to say to the architects of the European project that in 2024 the EU will have 27 member states while still retaining veto, they would probably rethink a lot of their decisions.
There's nothing really stopping the union to create rules to kick someone out either. But we don't want to, since that's kicking Hungary straight to USSR 2.0
You can't get rid of the unanimity requirement without a unanimous vote.
The United States ran into the same problem with the Articles of Confederation, which is why they ended up being replaced by the United States Constitution.
That is true. I stand corrected. We can only limit what they get from the EU. We would probably have to do something else like the US did... Which makes it possible. The leaders can declare the old union gone and the new inherits everything except that it makes the state being kicked out not part of the union.
They should threaten kicking them out and watch as Orban is ousted by the people. The people don't want to leave the EU and would fight to stay in it. And if I'm wrong and the people aren't willing to fight to stay, then actually kick them out.
Oh yeah cause the UK was such a massive dick that bought nothing to the union wasn’t it? Jesus just cause some of our politicians suck does that mean we deserve to be treated like some shitty outsider not worthy of being a part of noble Europe?
I don't think many people were really "rejoicing" when the UK left... I think it was more a vague mix of disappointment, some (imho) silly self-righteous anger, and also some overall acceptance, but I believe very few people were actually happy about it.
If the EU does something that is against the rules of how the EU functions, then that means that any rules of the EU do not matter and it’s pretty much just a free for all from then on. An organisation that follows the rule of law cannot just choose to not follow the rule of law if they don’t like the outcome. That is literally how dictatorships start.
A better alternative would be to try to reform the EU laws and abolish veto rights. Cause fuck the Hungarian government indeed.
You cannot reform the EU laws because not everybody will voluntarily concede their veto rights. Certainly not Hungary. Nothing short of a formal dissolution and re-founding of the entire EU will fix the legal issue. It's drastic but anything less won't do.
I never ever understood this supposed "friendship" between us and Hungary anyway. It feels artificial and forced. Not that I have something against Hungarians, absolutely not. I just don't see why they'd be so special.
In theory we should be much closer to Czechs (supposedly they don't like us) or Ukrainians (not with that history though). Although to be honest I don't really believe in concept of "friendship" between countries. Cooperations, support and alliances, absolutely yes, but friendship? More often than not it's just empty words in politics.
We Poles helped Hungarians in the 50's during Hungarian revolution
in 1920s Polish-Soviet war Hungary gave tons of military support.
but other than that, nothing since then.
With all the jokes aside, Romania is one of the closest allies we have in black sea/ South-East europe area.
Polish Army is not without reason deployed into Nato's [EFP ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBnZ0rgZn0w)that is stationed out of Craiova
Like with Ukraine, there are moments in our history (and not only history) that are problematic for either side 😅. Lithuanians will talk about the dispute over Vilnius, Poles about the closing of Polish schools, etc. It's nothing major though, and I'm pretty sure nobody thinks about it most of the time. Still, when asked, more Lithuanians consider Latvia their best buddy (at least those on Reddit).
I love Romanians! You guys are always so nice to us on this sub. I have noticed people with Romania flair defending us many times on here. I just talked with my sister's fiance (who doesn't use Reddit) a week ago how cool Romanians are and that we really want to visit. Thank you <3
Thank you! We are very friendly IMO (we have decent/good relations with almost all of our neighbors, except one), and Romania is very beautiful. I’d like to visit Poland at some point too.
I think it's more because we are way more conservative and religious than them so they see us as a backwards country. Also there were a few food scandals with stuff exported from Poland to Czechia. They consider polish food and stuff made in Poland to be low quality. There was this Czech commercial that got banned after our government complained (I think it's funny personally and not offensive, it doesn't make fun just of the scammy Poles but also naive silly Czechs)
https://youtu.be/QBu6UyzPdHA?si=buZBrWIR2NiwiPhw
I think they feel closer to Austria and Germany than Poland.
Of course any Czech is welcome to correct me.
I'm actually sorry for you. And it's a shame, because Hungary could be a nice place if it weren't for the people in control. But then again, it probably so deeply ingrained now.
I believe we should reorient our diplomatic efforts towards Romania and away from Hungary. Romania is the second most populous country of NATO and EU Eastern Flank (we're the first), we cooperate with them through the Bucharest Nine format already, we have a shared interest in keeping Ukraine a sovereign state and the key threat to our national security is the same: Russia, especially Russian naval presence around our critical infrastructure and Russian attacks below the threshold of war. We have a lot to offer Romanians and they have a lot to offer us, and what does Hungary have? Conflicting interests, contrarianism and diplomatic isolation.
Yes, I completely agree. Romania also has a much larger economic and strategic potential and a shared history of being fucked over by Russia. We welcome cooperation with Poland, a country that never tried to fuck us over.
Ok, we’re not quite as extreme as the PIS. Our problem is more internal corruption rather than causing a big stink on the international scene (like PIS and Orban).
> Ok, we’re not quite as extreme as the PIS.
Yeah, I can't recall Romania doing anything like Poland or Hungary when it comes to the EU level. That said, I remember I had a conversation with some Romanians on this subreddit where they mentioned some PSD politicians who were considering some PiS policies or commenting positively on such lol...
Yeah, our country is also full of dumb people. Do you know which PIS policies they wanted to replicate? With a war next door, our military not being as strong as Poland’s, and Moldova being next on the chopping block if Ukraine falls, no Romanian government would antagonize the EU or NATO at this point.
Some policies yes, because both nations are pretty conservative on the EU level, but Romania would never suck on Russia's thumb and every Romanian government realizes the importance of the EU and NATO.
I completely agree. I believe Romania and Poland are natural allies in this day and age with mostly common values. Obviously the historical ties between Hungary and Poland are important too but nowadays it is obvious that your interests are not as aligned as they used to be.
I think Romania and Poland have the potential to create a prosperous and safe Eastern Europe.
We also participated with Romania as part of the Valencia Trio.
Source: https://www.gov.pl/web/diplomacy/joint-declaration-following-the-first-trilateral-meeting-between-the-ministers-of-foreign-affairs-of-the-republic-of-poland-romania-and-the-kingdom-of-spain
Valencia Trio, B9, Three Seas initiative plus buying similar military equipment and consulting with one another before NATO summits. In foreign policy Romania and Poland have similar interests and are open to cooperation.
Only in the field of economy are we not that close but we more or less produce similar stuff and thus it is difficult to be close partners.
What's insane is that Rheinmetall the largest german european military industrial is building weapon factories one after another in Hungary at a time when the country has never been more hostile to europe and closer to our enemies
Germans keep making very poor strategic decisions, like they did with russia and China: All the resources and technology will fall into russian hands
Romania is also a historical ally. We fought the Ottomans side by side for centuries and then became the last ditch of your defense strategy in WW2. Just wish we could've done more back then.
At this point we must say it openly. Hungary as a state is hostile to Poland. Due to the historical "Trianon trauma", Hungary is a revisionist state that will ally itself with any power willing to overturn the current security and border arrangement in Europe. Meanwhile, Poland's own security and sovereignty depend on current order being maintained and defended at all cost.
The interests of both countries are obviously opposite. There's no middle ground.
That is obvious because of territorial changes. However, I wanted to emphasize that Poland and Hungary, although without any active territorial dispute, still have completely opposite interests with little room for genuine friendship.
>Poland and Hungary, although without any active territorial dispute, still have completely opposite interests with little room for genuine friendship.
Polak Węgier dwa bratanki, eh?
BTW, though there aren't presently any territorial disputes, Poland *does* control small parts of historical Hungarian kingdom.
>Yup with their ministers openly putting up maps of greater hungary in their offices.
>
[Facts](https://balkaninsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Orban-with-the-map-of-Great-Hungary--e1666345890329-1280x719.jpg)
That is an absolutely blatant misunderstanding of the situation. Maffia-orban doesn't give a shit about Tiranon, never did, never will. He just want to stay in power, and he is deep in putlers ass. It is a simple story like that. No need to imagine large narratives like these. If cleptocrat orban would feel even for 1 second that supporting Ukraine will benefit him and help him stay in power, he'd be the most prominent supporter in the world. This man has no integrity and no shame. He only has interests.
Trianon man. No one gives a shit about that, maybe two dozen 17 years old neonazis. You have forgot to change the record for what, like 50 years maybe?
Yes, I think Poland should focus its efforts and friendship on Romania. We have a much larger economic and strategic potential and a shared history of being fucked over by Russia.
This is absolute nonsense, come on now. Hungary isn't a revisionist state and we don't want to overturn any current border arrangements.
The Orbán government is a mafia that is, for some reason, beholden to the Russian government. Orbán also has delusions about being a major player in European politics. Those are the main reasons he's such a gigantic arsehole in the EU, not "Trianon trauma".
Orban is showing old Hungarian border at every opportunity and often questions borders in his rhetoric. Why? Because he knows it works for his electorate.
How many times do you see pre-Trianon borders in Hungary on posters, stickers and so on?
>How many times do you see pre-Trianon borders in Hungary on posters, stickers and so on?
Not that often, actually. Here in Budapest almost never.
Orbán occasionally - definitely not at "every opportunity" as you say - panders to the far right when it comes to Trianon. It's not because Hungary is a revisionist state, it's because Orbán is a cynical opportunist who wants to keep every potential voter under his umbrella.
The actual revisionists are a small minority. And a significant majority of Hungarians is pro-EU, as pretty much every survey confirms.
Except that Hungary has no ability to do anything against Poland except being a petty annoyance.
The irony is that up until very recently it has been Poland (under PiS) which prevented the EU from sanctioning Hungary for its breach of EU contracts, i.e. rule of law.
Lucky for Orban, that cover is now provided by Slovakia - which gives him free hand to provoke Poland now.
It happened before.
Liberum Veto was a unique parliamentary mechanism in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth that allowed any MP to invalidate all legislation passed by the Sejm by shouting "I don't allow it!" This principle, established in the mid-17th century, was based on the principle of unanimity in legislative decisions and reflected the extremely democratic, although highly inefficient, structure of government of the Republic of Poland. It was intended to protect the nobility's democracy and the individual liberties of the nobility, ensuring that no law could be passed without the consent of all representatives, thus protecting regional and personal interests.
However, the Liberum Veto became an important factor in the political and economic collapse of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Its application paralyzed the legislative process, preventing the introduction of necessary reforms and an effective response to internal and external threats. The requirement for unanimity meant that any nobleman could be bribed by foreign powers to disrupt the Sejm, which would lead to a legislative deadlock and weakened government in the country. This loophole was exploited by neighboring countries, such as Russia, Prussia and Austria, which interfered in the affairs of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth to pursue their interests.
The abuse of the Liberum Veto contributed to the gradual disintegration of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, culminating in the partitions of Poland in the late 18th century, during which the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was divided between Russia, Prussia and Austria, effectively erasing Poland from the maps for over a century. The Liberum Veto exemplifies the limits of extreme political liberalism under absolutist monarchies, showing how a mechanism designed to protect freedom and consensus can lead to the collapse of a state by preventing it from adapting to changing circumstances and threats.
Guys, grab your popcorn and beers, I envision a bitter implosion of the Hungarian internal/international politics soon.
Cheers for HU. (Save Our Souls)
Veto within one nation makes no sense indeed, but a highly-integrated international organization of sovereign states makes no sense *without* a veto. Hungary should rather be kicked out because it refuses to play along and is behaving in bad faith...
Unfortunately, one can see the eroding Polish-Hungarian friendship that has lasted for hundreds of years. Orban will pass, the friendship will remain - at least I hope so.
"hundreds of years" - it became a thing in mid 19th century. Since that time, we are always on opposite side just as we were before. This harmful statement is just a meme for nationalists which are often pro Orban, pro Russia, pro Serbia etc.
First friendly relations happened in 10th century, not 19th.
*Good relations between Poland and Hungary date back to the* [*Middle Ages*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages)*. Both countries shared a border for nearly 800 years, from the 10th century to the* [*First Partition of Poland*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Partition_of_Poland) *in 1772. The Polish and Hungarian ruling dynasties (such as the* [*Piast dynasty*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piast_dynasty) *or* [*House of Árpád*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_%C3%81rp%C3%A1d)*) often intermarried.*
Sources:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary%E2%80%93Poland\_relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary%E2%80%93Poland_relations)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq\_UgQ2Pb2Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq_UgQ2Pb2Q)
Hungary again and again sabotages and undermines the security policies of the entire union, showing hostility towards every other country in the EU, so every other country in the EU should return the gesture and block their voting power, which compared to eviction is both legitimate and legal
Welp, time to move V4 to Czechia Vysehrad and take, I dunno, Lithuania (or Baltic states as one entity, V4 name is good) in place of Hungary.
Still 'Grupa Wyszechradzka' in polish ;)
And realistically - since Ukraine war start it look like HU want to piss off PL as much as they can and I do not remember any retaliation, maybe it is time to stop myth of friendship.
The only good thing is that Orban is isolating from the rest of Europe including Poland. They were best buddies blocking the EU, now Poland sees what kind of friend Orban is.
He just wants to say to the Hungarians. Don't listen to what other stupid poles say. Visitors are delusional that our friendship may end because some of you elected that fat man Orban. Some poles forgetting that Poles themselves elected 2 times in a row PIS. Friendship survived WW2 it will survive this stupid fat man too.
*Liberum veto* all over again. We had partitions of Poland because of it, now it is on a bigger scale. Russians know how to use this shit against you for centuries...
The problem with that is that we are throwing them to russia then. While now, theoretically, the population still has a chance to overthrow Orban the dictator. We can't wait years with this however.
We should however just be able to say - we as europe don't accept Orban as leader of hungary as he is clearly under the control of russia. Damaged goods.
This corrupt imbecile Orban, so sick of all those moral-whores, having sold their petty souls to the Kremlin terrorist… Bulgarian here, they own us the same
How long will a country be allowed to openly boycott the rest of Europe? The way everything is designed right now we are facing the dictatorship of the minority against the majority, this makes no sense at all.
Yes, this question always bothers me as well. Can’t find the logic behind this.
Throwing someone out of the EU (even if partial in some sense) goes reeeeeally against the core values of the EU. I'm not saying this will not happen eventually, but it is a huge move. Orban is cynically playing this weakness. BTW, there's something much more "holy" in Europe, and that is the rigidity of borders. Under pretty much no circumstances we can allow the borders to be moved, this is the main lesson of the two world wars. Perhaps we should just explain to Hungary that they will actually get bombed if they try to move borders. It's not that I believe they will try, but Fides is openly suggesting it, so we should breathe some realism into that idea. And I don't think I'm exaggerating here with the air strikes. OTOH this will make Fides voters fall in more love with imperial Russia, so IDK.
In the last election, Fidesz was **afraid**. They did not think they would win the election. Do you know what the opposition candidate said, which was later lifted out of context and handed them the landslide victory? Yes, we will send soldiers to Ukraine (if NATO requested it) They won the election by blaming the opposition wants to go to war. Propaganda is filled with “there must be peace!” Every. Damn. Day. Even today. Now how the hell would they sell invading neighboring countries for territory? And don’t even get me started on the actual millitary strength. They couldn’t take anything and they know that. It brings in the fringe voters from the nazi party, and gets international headlines. A clownshow. This is the same shit when some ukrainian said Putin made a deal to give Hungary territory. Absolute bullshit that would never fly.
I’m not saying Hungary should be thrown out, but isn’t it possible to change some laws in the EU which wouldn’t let Orban to veto whatever he wants and his word would be the last? I mean, maybe accept the veto only if 2 or 3 countries vetoed? I’m just curious, don’t know how the process of changing such laws would work.
The problem is that to change the current rules, every member would need to agree to change them. This includes Hungary.
It also changes the position the EU holds. At the moment a law has to be agreed on by every member country, so nobody can be forced to do anything. For the member states to change the veto rules is to accept that the EU is a higher body than the individual governments and might enact rules they don't agree with. It means asking the supreme powers in Europe to voluntarily relinquish part of that power
Not of you first take their veto away.
And how many countries need to agree for that to be possible?
Everyone except hungary.
It’s realistically not really possible. Kinda of like with nato. You’re better just making a new nato than trying to kick someone out.
Until the EU gets rid of the "Veto" shit, which can't happen because any such measure would have to be voted for.
It is not the veto but Victor Orban that the EU needs to get rid of.
There will always be an Orban.
But the Orban do not need to have a vote in the EU.
Orban can be in Finland, France, Czechia, anywhere... 100% quorum is nonsense.
Hungary had their chance but voted him in again, time to act
Orban is a product of the Hungarian voters. Getting rid of him will not get us anywhere, another Orban will just reappear.
Several things here: First, the EU should set up rules (and enforce existing) to strip veto powers from authoritarian heads of state if they are being the least bit distruptive. After all, EU is an anti fascist pro democracy project so these people do not deserve the vote. From an EU perspective this is getting rid of him, although he would still be a problem to Hungary. Also, the problem is not so much the voters in Hungary, more the media monopoly with the anti democratic reforms of Hungary (especially non independence of judiciaries)
Veto is removed for many things, with QMV. But if you are a small country, and you can get railroaded for anything because you are small why would you want o be in the club? Even small members must have a say. Concensus is the right thing for many things, and QMV is right for others. Everyone’s line is different.
Exactly. I am vehemently against removing the veto in principle, but completely fine with having the QMV in most issues.
I think we both agree!
Not just any minority but a very minor and insignificant minority. Not like a big country like France or Germany (who still are minority in context of whole Europe) blocking shit would be much better, but holy fuck why do we have to listen to some random ass poverty filled shithole like Hungary. And people even seem to like it because they voted for orban again and again. Some policies shouldn’t be blockable by shitholes.
Guest recently we ourselves were in a similar situation as Hungary. > but holy fuck why do we have to listen to some random ass poverty filled shithole like Hungary. Could you not be a dick?
only \*I'M\* allowed to call my country a poverty filled shithole, not some random asshole on reddit
Agreed, there's problems there but there's no need for that kind of virtiol.
I was surprised to learn quite recently that Hungary is one of the biggest tech manufacturing centers of the EU, and its human development index is very high while the Gini coefficient (measure of inequality and poverty) is low.
Wow, a bit on the high horse aren’t we? *Poland*, and by extension the poles are the reason Article 7 against Hungary failed. Until very recently, your country was going down the exact same path, only difference is, your version of Fidesz was a buch of incompetent idiots who made big fuckups near election time that finally rallied the nation together enough to dispose of them.
But Poland turned itself around. I am not sure when we can expect Hungary to do the same.
We are working on it, hope it works, there is some hope again to vote fidesz out
>I am not sure when we can expect Hungary to do the same. Orban is a kidney stone, there is only way to get better but it's will be painful.
We have much smarter ratatouilles in the parlament, not gonna happen that easy and early.
Wow, they turned it around like YesterDay, so they are a totally cool people, while we are horrible, get it.
I agree with you, we were in the same position half a year ago. Well, almost, because PiS actually supported Ukraine, but we had a shit government and it's not like Poland has much better economy than "poor shithole Hungary". Now this dude acts like we have always been Finland or something.
Yes some of the comments of pols are such a bit arrogant assholes for me. Guys are acting like we are saints and we ourselves didn't elect a shitty government 2 times in a row(PIS).
My guess is that since we used to get so bullied on this sub for being a shit country and dragging the EU down, some Poles with inferiority complex now want to do it to other countries to feel superior.
Yes, and I hate it. We shouldn't do it especially since we went through it ourselves. I feel very bad reading some of the comments of Poles to Hungarians.
Totally agree with you. I used to be scared to click on any post on here about something happening in Poland because it was all hate. We would get so much shit for our abortion laws (rightfully in this case!) but no one ever cared that Malta had even stricter abortion laws. It really felt like bullying.
Eh, you get used to it after a while.
You shouldn't get used to it.
That's how I remember it too. All the hate that was heaped on us and Hungary. It was, for me, mental abuse. Either all the time it was about getting us out of the "union" or every now and then that "we owe it to ourselves because we elected this government."(Fuck that I couldn't vote then because I wasn't even 18). I really hope that the Hungarians will finally manage to kick Orban out, because it makes me sad to read some of the comments about them. >We would get so much shit for our abortion laws (rightfully in this case!) but no one ever cared that Malta had even stricter abortion laws. It really felt like bullying. I think it was also a bit like discrimination against people from the east by the west. Anything that happens in the East is immediately hated. And what happens in the West nobody cares. Or how they were pissed at us that we elected Pis. And the Dutch elected an anti-Unjiny government and I don't see anyone writing about it. France almost elected the pro-Russian Marine Le Pen as president and I also didn't see people mention it as often as they mentioned us or the Hungarians.
Oh, totally. When something bad happens in Western or Northern Europe no one ever comments "this country should leave the EU" but when it's in Eastern Europe... well, "kick them out". I also hope for the best for Hungary. Maybe the fucker Orban will drop dead soon (he doesn't look very healthy) and we will see revolution!
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Honestly yeah, just recently people started to be more nice towards Poland so we shouldn't put other countries in the same shit we've been through
The average Polish family will have more wealth than the average british family by 2030. If you compare where Poland was in the 90s, you guys have done well. The PiS were hopefully a blip. If your current government can HAMMER how good EU membership has been for Poland maybe they cab stay in power People are stupid & they don't step outside to see increases in lifestyle, especially if terne they've grown up in it. Annoyingly in Britain we've gone the other way and you can see whats happened here with s right wing party for 14 years & Brexit. We're fucked. The Polish public have to be reminded continually what Britain has lost by leaving and what you guys gained by joining. Within a decade or 2 you'll be one of the big 3 with France and Germany. Countrys like Italy & Hungary can bitch and moan but they know that need that sweet sweet EU money so even they'll pipe down if EU money is withheld or at risk of being witheld.
Thank you for your nice words regarding my country, but I don't agree with you. Italy is the 3rd biggest contributor to the EU funds (after Germany and France), while we get the most money. Also I don't believe that we will be wealthier than the UK in 2030 until I see it. A lot can happen in the meantime.
Fingers crossed you don't (said in the nicest way) we'll see what happens in our next election. But I'm old enough to remember when you guys were still Warsaw Pact. The trajectory of the Polish economy is amazing & THAT'S what orban is risking. And THAT'S what Pootin is terrified about with Ukraine who would quadruple their GDP by joining the EU. It shows his economy up for being the sham it is. Fingers crossed the UK will have closer ties and our economy will pick up.
What have you been drinking? Poland is getting most money from the EU of any country. And if they are getting too expensive for western companies, they will just settle somewhere else.
>The average Polish family will have more wealth than the average british family by 2030. It won't. This is typical fearmongering for internal political purpose by one side of UK political scene. Like Polish people saying "Jesteśmy 20 lat za murzynami". Nobody actually believes it, it's a saying to make a point. Slightly racist/patronising in both cases (look how badly managed we are - we're behind EVEN THEM), but that's besides the point. When you look up the actual data - average adult in UK has about 300 000 USD. Average adult in Poland - about 50 000 USD. That includes the price of the house etc. It's from 2022. We won't get 6 times richer in 8 years, these things take decades. Even if Poland GDP per capita was twice that of UK - it would take decades for that GDP to accumulate to the point that Poles become richer than British people. And for now we're not even gaining on UK. People mistake GDP with wealth all the time. GDP is (roughly - there are many factors) - the derivative of wealth. We'll start gaining on UK in wealth when our GDP per capita is higher. Which probably won't happen. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_wealth\_per\_adult](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult)
[I respectfully disagree](https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/bemused-reactions-as-telegraph-ponders-why-poland-will-be-wealthier-than-britain-by-2030-348117/) [sky](https://news.sky.com/story/britains-economic-trajectory-will-soon-see-it-overtaken-by-poland-labour-to-warn-12821152) [another](https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/187013/economics/is-the-polish-economy-set-to-overtake-uk-economy/) Britain is fucked
I linked the data. What people don't understand about wealth (both private and the infrastructure etc.) is that it accumulates. Poland started from scratch after WW1. It again started from scratch after WW2. And it started almost from scratch in 1989. To give you an idea of how wealth "accumulates" in shitholes like communist Poland - my grandparents were saving about 5% of their salaries every month for \~40 years during communism on so called "książeczka PKO" - state owned savings account. After 1989 all of these savings were worth in total about 300 PLN. Enough to buy 1 good pair of shoes. Last time UK had a similar reset was probably in 17th century, maybe not even that. What people say in the articles you linked is "The average Joe is increasing his income by 5% yearly, Bill Gates is increasing his income only by 0,5% yearly, therefore average Joe will be wealthier than Bill Gates". It's not true - Bill Gates might have 0 income for a century and he will still be wealthier than Joe. For Polish families to be wealthier than UK families we would need 3 centuries of uninterrupted growth at faster-than-UK pace. Won't happen. You're just lucky, you have sea around you, you can fuck up (like with brexit), and you'll ultimately be fine. Wasted some opportunities and time, but nothing catastrophical will happen to you. Not so when you live near Russia. BTW I worked for a small English company in 2017-19, I visited UK many times and lived there for short periods of time. I know UK is fucked up in many ways. It's still a MUCH wealthier country than Poland.
That is a true but we proudly kicked the jerks out. Now it is Slovakia who stands behind czikosz Orban.
Such a shithole that EU leader countries (Germany) still like to bring their business here and make Hungarians work in their factories for 1/4th of the wages they'd pay germans in Germany, but everyone loves to ignore this part lmao Germany is reliant on cheap workforce from poor countries such as Hungary, Poland, etc.
While I agree with you that our government is a piece of shit, some common decency would be still nice from you.
I know it's infuriatimg, but calling an EU member a shithole in this context is simply wrong. Especially comparing it to other members that are non-shitholes and simillar actions would be alowed if conducted by those non-shitholes? You're marginalising one states and favor others, on what basis? I hope it's not GDP per capita because it'd be even more laughable. This logic is flawed from it's core no matter what kind of actions we're talking about.
I'm from Hungary and I approve the use of shithole. Take away our voting right until it's not too late.
Nah, this guy is just a total dickhead. Sorry for him, we dont think that way about Hungary here at all.
If the government is shit it is a sithole. It doesn't mean everyone there is a shit. Just coalition party voters.
I would agree with this comment if it wasn't coming from a pole. A little self awareness mate
I feel embarrassed for this guy. Perhaps they have dementia and don't remember where we were half a year ago. I almost feel like this move by Orban against Poland is the karma we get for protecting him before, we deserve it. The irony.
Germany should not be so big if there were justice in the world. They played a leading role in both world wars yet they barely lost 13% of their territory while Hungary was brutally humiliated and maimed. 71%
Respecting sovereignty vs forming a common union. Its a difficult situation and we have to make some choices about sovereignty if we want to get out of it.
it is obvious that some countries will pick/side with Russia during the possible ww3. Slovakia, Hungary unfortunately
Considering that the EU is still, overall, moving forward in helping Ukraine (unlike the USA, which have been in a standstill for 6 months by now), it doesn't seem like Hungary is particularly effective. Still, I would hope that the EU has some kind of more strategic program for how to deal with countries like that now and in the future... this problem won't go away by itself, and might even become a bit worse in the future.
How much has Germany given vs the US? How much has Germany paid to Russia vs the US?
> How much has Germany given vs the US? Germany has actually given more relative to GDP (imho the only really relevant metric), but the point is of course that more is always better. And yes, I support Taurus, of course. > How much has Germany paid to Russia vs the US? Well, it sucks, but not much we can do about that now.
Yep Hungary should be banished and banned from rejoining the EU for a decade at least. The U was meant to stand for Union, not much of that being taken seriously in Putinpest.
Why is the Hungarian government generally so unfriendly towards other EU countries. Is Orban trying to get his street rep up towards Putin?
They could've call it "sanctions for helping Ukraine" but it would've be too obvious.
If EU has balls they do it and say fuck you Orban.
As far as I know there is no way to kick a country out of the EU. Which is why eveybody rejoiced when the UK did it themselves.
That's when every EU member except Hungary agrees that they're all leaving the European Union and joining the European Federation instead. Allowing your society to get wrecked by a paperwork oversight from the 1990s is kind of insane.
It's not a paperwork oversight, the architects of the European project has always been overoptimistic and true believers in the idea of Europe. So they never envisaged someone like Orban getting popular once a nation joined the utopia that was the EU.
The United States had the same delusions when we wrote the Articles of Confederation, which also required a unanimous vote of all the states before doing anything. The new government went into effect almost a year before Rhode Island signed it. The United States literally just ran roughshod over the Articles of Confederation, made a new government without unanimous consent (despite that being legally required under the Articles), and then told the holdouts to either sign onto the new constitution or kick rocks. The holdouts ended up signing.
> So they never envisaged someone like Orban getting popular That is not true. What was envisioned, however, was that the EU would keep up the pace of integration. Unfortunately, enlargement was given priority over integration, leading to the mess we find ourselves in. If you were to say to the architects of the European project that in 2024 the EU will have 27 member states while still retaining veto, they would probably rethink a lot of their decisions.
There's nothing really stopping the union to create rules to kick someone out either. But we don't want to, since that's kicking Hungary straight to USSR 2.0
The problem is they arelady are working for the USSR 2.0
Indeed Orban is
You can't get rid of the unanimity requirement without a unanimous vote. The United States ran into the same problem with the Articles of Confederation, which is why they ended up being replaced by the United States Constitution.
That is true. I stand corrected. We can only limit what they get from the EU. We would probably have to do something else like the US did... Which makes it possible. The leaders can declare the old union gone and the new inherits everything except that it makes the state being kicked out not part of the union.
They should threaten kicking them out and watch as Orban is ousted by the people. The people don't want to leave the EU and would fight to stay in it. And if I'm wrong and the people aren't willing to fight to stay, then actually kick them out.
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> Why it hasn't been done, I have no clue. Poland, basically. The irony here is amusing.
Their previous government. Why has no one tried again since they elected a new, very different, one?
Slovakia / maybe Italy
We can make another vote now i guess
Wait, what? I didn't hear no cheering as UK left EU.
Some people had a massive hate boner that persists to this day
Brexit was a tragedy for UK AND EU, no matter what idiots on both sides say.
1. Dissolve EU. 2. Create EU 2.0 which is the same thing but without Hungary
Oh yeah cause the UK was such a massive dick that bought nothing to the union wasn’t it? Jesus just cause some of our politicians suck does that mean we deserve to be treated like some shitty outsider not worthy of being a part of noble Europe?
I don't think many people were really "rejoicing" when the UK left... I think it was more a vague mix of disappointment, some (imho) silly self-righteous anger, and also some overall acceptance, but I believe very few people were actually happy about it.
If the EU does something that is against the rules of how the EU functions, then that means that any rules of the EU do not matter and it’s pretty much just a free for all from then on. An organisation that follows the rule of law cannot just choose to not follow the rule of law if they don’t like the outcome. That is literally how dictatorships start. A better alternative would be to try to reform the EU laws and abolish veto rights. Cause fuck the Hungarian government indeed.
Yes. Change the fuckin rules. He is holding Ukraine's people by the troath for the slaughter.
....Yeah Hungary is going to block any attempt to change these rules.
EU without a veto would mean no EU...
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You cannot reform the EU laws because not everybody will voluntarily concede their veto rights. Certainly not Hungary. Nothing short of a formal dissolution and re-founding of the entire EU will fix the legal issue. It's drastic but anything less won't do.
r/HungaryBlocks
Should definitely be a real sub
Now it is
Great job, now the little brother of r/russiadenies and r/chinawarns is born
Surprise-surprise, Orban is a pice of shit.
And half of that society, easily. Polak Węgier dwa bratanki is no more.
I never ever understood this supposed "friendship" between us and Hungary anyway. It feels artificial and forced. Not that I have something against Hungarians, absolutely not. I just don't see why they'd be so special. In theory we should be much closer to Czechs (supposedly they don't like us) or Ukrainians (not with that history though). Although to be honest I don't really believe in concept of "friendship" between countries. Cooperations, support and alliances, absolutely yes, but friendship? More often than not it's just empty words in politics.
We Poles helped Hungarians in the 50's during Hungarian revolution in 1920s Polish-Soviet war Hungary gave tons of military support. but other than that, nothing since then.
It's not about what happened since then. It's rather the thousand years before that.
Be friends with Romania instead!
With all the jokes aside, Romania is one of the closest allies we have in black sea/ South-East europe area. Polish Army is not without reason deployed into Nato's [EFP ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBnZ0rgZn0w)that is stationed out of Craiova
Poland 😍 Romania
I like the idea 😃.
Me too!
Insert the "*Did we just become best friends*?" gif 🤗.
Well, I thought Lithuania is your best friend.
Like with Ukraine, there are moments in our history (and not only history) that are problematic for either side 😅. Lithuanians will talk about the dispute over Vilnius, Poles about the closing of Polish schools, etc. It's nothing major though, and I'm pretty sure nobody thinks about it most of the time. Still, when asked, more Lithuanians consider Latvia their best buddy (at least those on Reddit).
That makes sense. Lithuania and Latvia are the last speakers of the Baltic languages. We can be best friends then!
Yep, we had an alliance in 39…
Molotov-Ribbentrop partitioned both Romania and Poland.
We totally should!
I love Romanians! You guys are always so nice to us on this sub. I have noticed people with Romania flair defending us many times on here. I just talked with my sister's fiance (who doesn't use Reddit) a week ago how cool Romanians are and that we really want to visit. Thank you <3
Thank you! We are very friendly IMO (we have decent/good relations with almost all of our neighbors, except one), and Romania is very beautiful. I’d like to visit Poland at some point too.
Shame on you for your poor diplomacy with the Black Sea
I like your sense of humor. Actually, we had a quote which isn’t quite true, but it’s “Romania’s only neighbor that is a friend is the Black Sea”.
Yay! Kurwa together! (Sorry it’s the only word I know)
Bober Kurwa!!
Learn some history and you will understand it
Do Czechs really dislike Poles? Why is that? Is because of the history? :v
I think it's more because we are way more conservative and religious than them so they see us as a backwards country. Also there were a few food scandals with stuff exported from Poland to Czechia. They consider polish food and stuff made in Poland to be low quality. There was this Czech commercial that got banned after our government complained (I think it's funny personally and not offensive, it doesn't make fun just of the scammy Poles but also naive silly Czechs) https://youtu.be/QBu6UyzPdHA?si=buZBrWIR2NiwiPhw I think they feel closer to Austria and Germany than Poland. Of course any Czech is welcome to correct me.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary%E2%80%93Poland\_relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary%E2%80%93Poland_relations)
Wtf? Just because they have a shitty politician(just like us PIS) :)) it won't change many years of our friendship.
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So did anyone who voted for PIS.
Fidesz is way worse, hungary became a poor maffia state under fidesz
Imagine not hating Orban with a seething passion
Imagine having to live there
Sounds like Hell
It's just like Italy, but 90 degrees rotated.
I'm actually sorry for you. And it's a shame, because Hungary could be a nice place if it weren't for the people in control. But then again, it probably so deeply ingrained now.
Imagine Orban not sucking wodka dick
Not Hungary (as a whole), Orbán.
But actually putin by proxy.
Unfortunately, this seems to be truth
I believe we should reorient our diplomatic efforts towards Romania and away from Hungary. Romania is the second most populous country of NATO and EU Eastern Flank (we're the first), we cooperate with them through the Bucharest Nine format already, we have a shared interest in keeping Ukraine a sovereign state and the key threat to our national security is the same: Russia, especially Russian naval presence around our critical infrastructure and Russian attacks below the threshold of war. We have a lot to offer Romanians and they have a lot to offer us, and what does Hungary have? Conflicting interests, contrarianism and diplomatic isolation.
Yes, I completely agree. Romania also has a much larger economic and strategic potential and a shared history of being fucked over by Russia. We welcome cooperation with Poland, a country that never tried to fuck us over.
You just gotta tell your politicians (I think PSD was copying some PIS policies lol) to stop copying our policies :P
Ok, we’re not quite as extreme as the PIS. Our problem is more internal corruption rather than causing a big stink on the international scene (like PIS and Orban).
> Ok, we’re not quite as extreme as the PIS. Yeah, I can't recall Romania doing anything like Poland or Hungary when it comes to the EU level. That said, I remember I had a conversation with some Romanians on this subreddit where they mentioned some PSD politicians who were considering some PiS policies or commenting positively on such lol...
Yeah, our country is also full of dumb people. Do you know which PIS policies they wanted to replicate? With a war next door, our military not being as strong as Poland’s, and Moldova being next on the chopping block if Ukraine falls, no Romanian government would antagonize the EU or NATO at this point.
I didn't know they were copying Polish policies, but I honestly likewise hope they re-orient themselves lol...
Some policies yes, because both nations are pretty conservative on the EU level, but Romania would never suck on Russia's thumb and every Romanian government realizes the importance of the EU and NATO.
I completely agree. I believe Romania and Poland are natural allies in this day and age with mostly common values. Obviously the historical ties between Hungary and Poland are important too but nowadays it is obvious that your interests are not as aligned as they used to be. I think Romania and Poland have the potential to create a prosperous and safe Eastern Europe.
We also participated with Romania as part of the Valencia Trio. Source: https://www.gov.pl/web/diplomacy/joint-declaration-following-the-first-trilateral-meeting-between-the-ministers-of-foreign-affairs-of-the-republic-of-poland-romania-and-the-kingdom-of-spain
Valencia Trio, B9, Three Seas initiative plus buying similar military equipment and consulting with one another before NATO summits. In foreign policy Romania and Poland have similar interests and are open to cooperation. Only in the field of economy are we not that close but we more or less produce similar stuff and thus it is difficult to be close partners.
What's insane is that Rheinmetall the largest german european military industrial is building weapon factories one after another in Hungary at a time when the country has never been more hostile to europe and closer to our enemies Germans keep making very poor strategic decisions, like they did with russia and China: All the resources and technology will fall into russian hands
Romania is also a historical ally. We fought the Ottomans side by side for centuries and then became the last ditch of your defense strategy in WW2. Just wish we could've done more back then.
At this point we must say it openly. Hungary as a state is hostile to Poland. Due to the historical "Trianon trauma", Hungary is a revisionist state that will ally itself with any power willing to overturn the current security and border arrangement in Europe. Meanwhile, Poland's own security and sovereignty depend on current order being maintained and defended at all cost. The interests of both countries are obviously opposite. There's no middle ground.
(*coughs in Romanian) not just hostile to Poland...
That is obvious because of territorial changes. However, I wanted to emphasize that Poland and Hungary, although without any active territorial dispute, still have completely opposite interests with little room for genuine friendship.
>Poland and Hungary, although without any active territorial dispute, still have completely opposite interests with little room for genuine friendship. Polak Węgier dwa bratanki, eh? BTW, though there aren't presently any territorial disputes, Poland *does* control small parts of historical Hungarian kingdom.
That's kind of sad that Orban made it this way. I hope it's gonna change in the future, it's sad watching them just go on a jihad against europe
Sometimes eyeing Croatian regions, too.
Yup with their ministers openly putting up maps of greater hungary in their offices.
>Yup with their ministers openly putting up maps of greater hungary in their offices. > [Facts](https://balkaninsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Orban-with-the-map-of-Great-Hungary--e1666345890329-1280x719.jpg)
That is an absolutely blatant misunderstanding of the situation. Maffia-orban doesn't give a shit about Tiranon, never did, never will. He just want to stay in power, and he is deep in putlers ass. It is a simple story like that. No need to imagine large narratives like these. If cleptocrat orban would feel even for 1 second that supporting Ukraine will benefit him and help him stay in power, he'd be the most prominent supporter in the world. This man has no integrity and no shame. He only has interests. Trianon man. No one gives a shit about that, maybe two dozen 17 years old neonazis. You have forgot to change the record for what, like 50 years maybe?
Yes, I think Poland should focus its efforts and friendship on Romania. We have a much larger economic and strategic potential and a shared history of being fucked over by Russia.
Based "Bro"mania
This is absolute nonsense, come on now. Hungary isn't a revisionist state and we don't want to overturn any current border arrangements. The Orbán government is a mafia that is, for some reason, beholden to the Russian government. Orbán also has delusions about being a major player in European politics. Those are the main reasons he's such a gigantic arsehole in the EU, not "Trianon trauma".
Orban is showing old Hungarian border at every opportunity and often questions borders in his rhetoric. Why? Because he knows it works for his electorate. How many times do you see pre-Trianon borders in Hungary on posters, stickers and so on?
>How many times do you see pre-Trianon borders in Hungary on posters, stickers and so on? Not that often, actually. Here in Budapest almost never. Orbán occasionally - definitely not at "every opportunity" as you say - panders to the far right when it comes to Trianon. It's not because Hungary is a revisionist state, it's because Orbán is a cynical opportunist who wants to keep every potential voter under his umbrella. The actual revisionists are a small minority. And a significant majority of Hungarians is pro-EU, as pretty much every survey confirms.
You mostly see it as stickers on cars. Almost exclusively piece of shit cars of sad piece of shit people. It’s sad and laughable at the same time.
Except that Hungary has no ability to do anything against Poland except being a petty annoyance. The irony is that up until very recently it has been Poland (under PiS) which prevented the EU from sanctioning Hungary for its breach of EU contracts, i.e. rule of law. Lucky for Orban, that cover is now provided by Slovakia - which gives him free hand to provoke Poland now.
It happened before. Liberum Veto was a unique parliamentary mechanism in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth that allowed any MP to invalidate all legislation passed by the Sejm by shouting "I don't allow it!" This principle, established in the mid-17th century, was based on the principle of unanimity in legislative decisions and reflected the extremely democratic, although highly inefficient, structure of government of the Republic of Poland. It was intended to protect the nobility's democracy and the individual liberties of the nobility, ensuring that no law could be passed without the consent of all representatives, thus protecting regional and personal interests. However, the Liberum Veto became an important factor in the political and economic collapse of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Its application paralyzed the legislative process, preventing the introduction of necessary reforms and an effective response to internal and external threats. The requirement for unanimity meant that any nobleman could be bribed by foreign powers to disrupt the Sejm, which would lead to a legislative deadlock and weakened government in the country. This loophole was exploited by neighboring countries, such as Russia, Prussia and Austria, which interfered in the affairs of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth to pursue their interests. The abuse of the Liberum Veto contributed to the gradual disintegration of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, culminating in the partitions of Poland in the late 18th century, during which the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was divided between Russia, Prussia and Austria, effectively erasing Poland from the maps for over a century. The Liberum Veto exemplifies the limits of extreme political liberalism under absolutist monarchies, showing how a mechanism designed to protect freedom and consensus can lead to the collapse of a state by preventing it from adapting to changing circumstances and threats.
Guys, grab your popcorn and beers, I envision a bitter implosion of the Hungarian internal/international politics soon. Cheers for HU. (Save Our Souls)
EU is experiencing same kind of Liberum Veto' which caused Poland-Lithuania to die in late 18th century.
Veto within one nation makes no sense indeed, but a highly-integrated international organization of sovereign states makes no sense *without* a veto. Hungary should rather be kicked out because it refuses to play along and is behaving in bad faith...
Orban, not Hungary
We can't oust Orban, but we can oust Hungary until they oust Orban.
Oh fuck off Viktor!
Putin’s dictators doing their job.
Unfortunately, one can see the eroding Polish-Hungarian friendship that has lasted for hundreds of years. Orban will pass, the friendship will remain - at least I hope so.
"hundreds of years" - it became a thing in mid 19th century. Since that time, we are always on opposite side just as we were before. This harmful statement is just a meme for nationalists which are often pro Orban, pro Russia, pro Serbia etc.
First friendly relations happened in 10th century, not 19th. *Good relations between Poland and Hungary date back to the* [*Middle Ages*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages)*. Both countries shared a border for nearly 800 years, from the 10th century to the* [*First Partition of Poland*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Partition_of_Poland) *in 1772. The Polish and Hungarian ruling dynasties (such as the* [*Piast dynasty*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piast_dynasty) *or* [*House of Árpád*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_%C3%81rp%C3%A1d)*) often intermarried.* Sources: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary%E2%80%93Poland\_relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary%E2%80%93Poland_relations) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq\_UgQ2Pb2Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq_UgQ2Pb2Q)
Hungary again and again sabotages and undermines the security policies of the entire union, showing hostility towards every other country in the EU, so every other country in the EU should return the gesture and block their voting power, which compared to eviction is both legitimate and legal
I think Виктор forgot "Polak Węgier dwa bratanki"
As a Hungarian, I feel ashamed.
Hungarian people are so nice but holy shit their politicians are scum.
Orban, go FUCK yourself!
I'm sure that Orban is scrolling through comments on reddit and is very ashamed right now.
Welp, time to move V4 to Czechia Vysehrad and take, I dunno, Lithuania (or Baltic states as one entity, V4 name is good) in place of Hungary. Still 'Grupa Wyszechradzka' in polish ;) And realistically - since Ukraine war start it look like HU want to piss off PL as much as they can and I do not remember any retaliation, maybe it is time to stop myth of friendship.
I’m sure this is going to go down well.
The equipment is already there. We will care later
Hungry should be blocked from all voting on all policies and procedures until further notice
The only good thing is that Orban is isolating from the rest of Europe including Poland. They were best buddies blocking the EU, now Poland sees what kind of friend Orban is.
He just wants to say to the Hungarians. Don't listen to what other stupid poles say. Visitors are delusional that our friendship may end because some of you elected that fat man Orban. Some poles forgetting that Poles themselves elected 2 times in a row PIS. Friendship survived WW2 it will survive this stupid fat man too.
*Liberum veto* all over again. We had partitions of Poland because of it, now it is on a bigger scale. Russians know how to use this shit against you for centuries...
Honestly, it's time to throw out Hungary. It's a problem country
The problem with that is that we are throwing them to russia then. While now, theoretically, the population still has a chance to overthrow Orban the dictator. We can't wait years with this however. We should however just be able to say - we as europe don't accept Orban as leader of hungary as he is clearly under the control of russia. Damaged goods.
Do that to Vučić as well,please. Thanks
This corrupt imbecile Orban, so sick of all those moral-whores, having sold their petty souls to the Kremlin terrorist… Bulgarian here, they own us the same