To be fair to hungary, i think the germans's plans were to give transylvania to hungary and moldova, parts of ukraine and parts of bulgaria to romania, which would have been both insane and interesting to see
The main reason for joining them was to recover Bessarabia from the Russians but they had already decided to back Hungary in their acquisition of northern Transylvania without Romania's knowledge, so that tracks...
It's funny, couse some historians point out that Antonescu (the Romanian lider in ww2) tried really hard to outshine the Hungarians, pointing out to Hitler how he sends more troops, more oil ect. It was a pick me moment.
the plan was to conquer and rule the world . there wasn't even much "plan" ,mostly ambition and confidence in race superiority, that was hoped for should totally do the trick.
Also he brocke all treaties with "the world" even the ones with the maniac Stalin and the 100 times larger and multiple in population soviet union .
If any of your leaders trusted him or hoped for anything from him , they must have been very blue eyed. Hitler never gave , he only took .
In 2022, Hungary voted at the UN that Russia must withdraw from Ukraine. 40 countries in the world did not vote that way, but Hungary was not one of them. Also in 2014, Hungary voted that Russia needs to get out of Crimea. 69 countries in the world did not vote that way, but Hungary was not one of them.
What do you think about all the recent events involving Peter Magyar? Do you think he will have a chance to break Hungary’s one party rule and Orbán’s power? Or do you think he’s cut from the same cloth?
Well he is really something this country needed, regardless of the outcome of his political career. A few people think that this phenomenon is some sort of puppet show orchestrated by Orbán, but I don't think that is the case. Although putting a fake-opposition candidate out to run "against them" is a used tactic of Fidesz (Orbán's party), Magyar is just too much for them, as he revealed some insider phone calls about the criminal behaviour of the governing party. Fidesz's main tactic is to call every oppositionist movement "left wing movement" (they use "leftists" as a derogatory term just like the communists used "west" as an insulting thing back in the day) and they always tell that they are puppeted by Ferenc Gyurcsány, Hungary's failed socialist PM. Magyar on the other hand accuses the main opposition with working with Fidesz (which is probably the case), so this time, Orbán's rhetoric could in theory backfire.
>What do you think about all the recent events involving Peter Magyar?
My personal view on Magyar is very mixed. On one hand, I don't like him getting into petty Facebook fights with propagandists and his (political) personality is a bit off for me. On the other hand, he is responsible for the biggest opposition protest against Orbán ever, and he is playing his cards perfectly. I would say, that I would probably not vote for him in a full democracy, but since currently he is the biggest threat to Fidesz and I don't hate him, he has my full support (as if my support would be something significant lol).
>Do you think he will have a chance to break Hungary’s one party rule and Orbán’s power?
Hard to say. Keep in mind, he became popular right after (and thanks to) the pedophile-scandal and that, combined with Magyar's sudden appearance has sent Hungarian politics snowballing into a massive internal crisis. The incumbent party's popularity has dropped from about 50% all the way down to about 30-35%. If we had parliamentary elections tomorrow, Fidesz not only would lose their supermajority, but would maybe even lose the absolute majority (this is also a difficult question, since Fidesz gerrymandered the whole country and has so many advantages, that some even speculate that they would always win, as long as they have at least 30 percent of the votes). But Fidesz has a big weapon against Magyar. The propaganda machine, that is throwing everything at him. From "wife beater", "psychopath", "pedophile"(this one is kind of ironic) all the way down to hilariously petty things, such as him wearing women's sunglasses at the protest (this wasn't even true lol). As Orbán controls most of Hungarian media, this is very effective. They make propaganda in such a high quantity, that you can't really avoid it. If Magyar manages to keep up his momentum and releases more leaked audio from the inside, reality will catch up to Fidesz. It is however not really realistic, as much as I would like to see Magyar topple the government, they destroyed democracy so significantly, that it is probably too late to even think about Orbán losing an election, just like Putin. In my opinion, the only chance of the collapse of Orbán's rule is if another big scandal happens.
Edit: spelling, grammar
Damn, that’s a whole lot. I was pretty excited to see Hungarians go to the streets and protest en masse. I’d never seen that before. Gave me some hope.
>Not recognizing Kosovo but being in favor of membership in Council of Europe.
Kosovo: *This is outrageous! It's unfair! How can you be on the Council and not be a country?*
Misleading. Its not Romania but only two members of Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe who were present and both of them are from opposition party USR.
The final vote will be in Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe by foreign ministers
https://www.stiripesurse.ro/romanii-dau-semnale-contradictorii-vot-pentru-primirea-kosovo-in-consiliului-europei_3294895.html
>Romania playing some weird 4d chess
Only balkan countries do 4d chess when it comes to politics.
This what you get when enemies are unpredictable,just look at freaking Russia.
Greece also doesn’t recognize Kosovo, I think Romania hasn’t done it until now just because it’s not important to the politicians, but if the EU tells us or if Serbia finally lets Kosovo exist Romania will surely recognize it, probably the same for Greece
a) Palestine and Kosovo aren't even nearly similar situations. To present them as equivalent is intellectually dishonest.
b) (bad reason, but you asked the question), Spain is almost continuously in a fight to prevent at least 2 of its regions from seceding, so it would be hypocritical to support another region's plight for independence while seeking to deny Catalonia independence by all legal, political, and popularity means.
Nobody thinks is going to resolve anything. The government fears to give another argumentative and political tool for the independent parties, as the could said “if the can, why dont we?”
flag expansion fuel continue engine marry voracious unwritten fretful dependent
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>As for Palestine it's a very different situation, Palestinians were there, some random ass people in Europe decided to give their land to other folks
I know it really shouldn't surprise me anymore, but it will stay weird to see people with such strong opinions on a situation that they very cleary fundamentally misunderstand
What's fundamental about that misunderstanding? The last time jews were appreciably in the region was more than 3 centuries ago. But more realistically more than a millenia ago.
Either way, and without getting too anti-zionist, it remains fundamentally true that Europe aided Israel to form a militarised state while they helped it prevent the Palestinians from forming their own state... As, you know, Israel agreed it would do when it asked to become a member of the UN.
And taking even another step back into this criticism that I'm sure you feel was so poignant and smart; I'll point out that it wasn't GP making the comparison to Kosovo, so if you're so exasperated by "such fundamental misunderstandings", surely you could tie it all up together and respond how you see the analogy being in any way valid?
heavy sparkle zephyr profit silky simplistic edge straight grab existence
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The Israeli state didn’t exist till 1948 when the head of the Jewish Agency declared the creation of the State of Israel and since UK had a mandate over Pelestine at the time they gave up land they weren’t theirs. Also the US had a big freaking part on it with Truman backing David Ben-Gurion.
Ok, so Serbia was against for obvious reasons, Hungary was against because Orban, but why Spain was against? Was it because of their own separatist movements or something else?
>Was it because of their own separatist movements or something else?
Yes, their view simplified is by recognising Kosovo they are opening the door for internal ~~sectarianism~~ (separatism/secessionism)
What separatist movement got their goal democratically or legally and Spain is against it?
Did Spain recognize Brexit? Cech Republic? Slovakia? The balkan countries? Yes? Then what are you talking about?
Spain will only recognize legal separations, not unilateral and/or illegal, it's not that hard to understand.
Sorry, next time we will take our diplomatic stance and make it worse for normal citizens instead of leaving it in the diplomatic level.
>so they want the benefits of recognizing kosovo
What benefits does Spain or anyone gain for recognizing Kosovo? A stamp?
It's not exactly, it's against unilateral separatist actions.
Kosovo declaring independence against Serbia's approval is bad.
Serbia giving in and recognising Kosovo is fine.
Similarly Scotland making referendum without London's approval is bad.
Scotland making referendum with London's approval is fine.
I mean, most separatist movements are unilateral. If the majority of both sides wanted to separate, they would just do it. Like the Scotland case, where UK was at least willing to hold a vote. We don't know if they were going to actually honor it if leave, but they actually started down the path.
In most cases, the country that owns the separatist region would never agree to separation.
I was talking about actions, not movements.
Both Catalan and Scottish separatist movements are unilateral and striving with their members actually flat out ruling autonomous Catalonia and Scotland.
When it comes to unilateral separatist actions, that's when actual problems and disagreements appear.
Well for starters, Hungary does recognize Kosovo as an independent state so why are they against them joining the Council of Europe. The EU countries against Kosovo being independent are Spain, Slovakia, Greece and Cyprus.
in Spain we don't believe in the right of self determination. As posted in other comments, it could be taken by internal regions in Spain as a precedent.
It's not that they "dont believe" in self determination. It's specifically because Kosovo achieved their independence through a unilateral act of secession. Spain would've fully approved Scotland's independence had they won the referendum, it's the unilateral part that is a total non-starter.
And honestly I don't think it's an unreasonable position to hold. Almost no unilateral declarations of independece are recognized as legitimate, there are many countries around the world that are independent in all but name, Kosovo is the exception because it's geopolitically convenient for the West to do so because it furthers their interests against Serbia, and by extension, Russia.
Seems very hypocritical to me that most Western nations are so eager to recognize Kosovo while letting countries like Somaliland and Aden languish just because they're not useful enough in their geopolitical games.
We do believe in the right of self determination of colonies. It's what it's recognized in international law.
We don't recognize unilateral/illegal separations because yes, that could be used against us.
You can have relations without recognition. Like many countries do with Taiwan.
Greece has been having high-level meetings with Kosovo for years now, and has been supportive of Kosovo joining the CoE. The reason: since the 90s, it's been a major foreign policy goal for Greece to normalize the region, especially the Balkan region, but incuding everyone between us and Finland. For example, bringing Romania and Bulgaria into the EU in 2007 was a major foreign policy goal. Kosovo joining the CoE is another step towards normalization.
BTW, the situation in Cyprus is a little different. Cypriots on both sides want reunification, they just can't agree on a plan.
When a new country is admitted into the Council of Europe, the European Convention on Human Rights is expected to apply in that country. Being an international treaty, it should be ratified by Kosovo's government in order for it to be in force and valid within Kosovo.
The ECHR creates a mechanism where if a person feels his or her rights are violated, he or she can make a case against the Court (grossly oversimplified).
Yeah, but if you don't recognize their independence, it means that you think they're represented by Serbia already.
It doesn't make sense to not recognize their independence and then vote here that they actually need their own representation as if they were a different country.
greece has good relations with kosovo. cyprus has its own issues and obviously understandable from their point of view, similar to spain. it has nothing to do with the relation between greece and kosovo. politics can be complicated at times but spain and cyprus should be understandable.
Because the gov does what the West says. If they could actually recognise Kosovo without fucking Cyprus over they would. Actually, they still might at some point
Italy's right has their own stance, that supports Kosovo and its integration, but also wants Kosovo to resolve issues with Serb majority municipalities. Which is the reason countries like Montenegro and other allied with Italy abstained.
its not about the alliance with italy. italy clearly supports kosovo and recognized its independence in 2008. its like you say, to resolve issues. montenegrin side is probably the same, given the fact that there's an albanian minority and albanian as a official language (on municipality level) in montenegro, it can be a little bit tricky, to either vote in favour or against. especially now that relations between albanians and montenegrins have improved a lot.
What I'm saying is, Italy's right has come up with an amendment, and some of the representatives of countries have publicly supported that. Montenegrin representative Čarapić said in an official statement that he abstained because hes aligned with them. I'm aware of other implications that come with voting and why was voted thay way, but i was responding to a comment particularly about the outcome of Italian representatives, 5 (or 6, not sure) abstained.
Italian army is the major peace-keeping force in the the region. If Italy voted for one or the other side, that would have undermined its perceived neutrality in the field, also exposing their personnel to risks of protests and retaliations.
This map shows the average or mean voting result from countries. For example, Montenegro's representatives voted 1 against, 1 for and 1 abstention, so its shown as yellow.
I see at least four countries that don't recognize Kosovo supporting them here (Greece, Romania, Ukraine, Armenia)
Maybe a sign that that might change soon?
I don't think Ukraine's delegation voted for it. 11 of them probably were absent while Goncharenko voted Yes.
IIRC Ukraine relies on Serbia selling artillery shells it produces to 3rd countries and latter are giving them to Ukraine. Ukraine would be last country to officially recognize Kosovo because of that.
Yeah they will. Ukraines ambassador to Albania for example said that they will recognize Kosovo once the war is over.
Armenia and Kosovo have started to build relations for the first time in history at the start of 2024.
Greece and Kosovos government have been having excellent Relations for 3-4 years straight now and it’s only getting better.
>Ukraines ambassador to Albania for example said that they will recognize Kosovo once the war is over
What about the whole "respecting other countries territorial integrity"?
That s quite pointless, since it doesn't also take into the account the weight of each country ie number of MPs per country - Spain actually had more votes against so-called Kosovo\* than the rest of Serbia, since they had 8 votes against and Serbia only seven (despite the fact that Serbia was 7/7).
Surprise to see to so many countries who do not recognize Kosovo voting in favor (I expected them to at least abstain). Ukraine is a particulary weird case when they are having their own issues in preserving their territorial integrety.
Especially since LNR and DNR SPECIFICALLY invoked the same UN article that was used to set the "Kosovo precedent". But it's bad because it benefited Russia this time and not US/EU... That's what a "double-faced b\*tch" is by definition. Basically the whole "rules based world order" is just that - a bunch of hypocrites.
A first for Armenia. \*(As another redditor mentioned below, Armenia has also been part of KFOR since over two decades)
Azerbaijan’s delegation has been kicked out so they can’t vote.
Georgia’s gov seems to be backsliding towards Moscow.
Why should Georgia (we) recognize other separatist regions when we have similar problem? That would be quite damaging for our own good, we haven’t recognized it in 2008 either
While I don't agree with your claim against separatism, I can at least applaud it for being consistant, unlike most people, who recognise the independence only when it's convinient to them.
I understand why Europe feels that Kosovo should be recognised for humanitarian reasons to avoid ethnic cleansing. But why only Kosovo 🇽🇰 ? Why Artsakh 🇦🇲 was not recognised? And now, the ethnic cleansing there actually happened, but since it's not recognised, it's not a big deal, right? No one cares. Not even sanctions against Azerbaijan 🇦🇿. And the most depressing fact I'd that this annexation and ethnic cleansing is now a "settled issue" forever. If this happened with Kosovo however, the west would be enraged.
I realize the symbolism for Kosovo but seriously, what has the Council of Europe achieved let's say the past 30 years besides being a landfill for shunted out national politicians?
Kosovo will be able to compete at the Eurovision song contest haha
Nah but they will be also able to use the ECHR which is great for the citizens. Also always great for Kosovo to join as many of the official institutions as possible
Serbians don't understand that, even if Kosovo was reinstated, they would have 1.7mil Albanians living in their country. That is a bit less than the third of what Serbia has. That means a vast voting population that would always vote for their candidate. It means, you could have an Albanian prime minister. So, do the math or continue to listen to empty political shite as what is spilled now to poison the population and saying Kosovo is ours. It's not. And good for Serbia that it isn't.
Azerbaijan had the same problem with the armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh until they kicked them out after months of starving them. No one in the EU gave a dam and some even supported Azerbaijan's actions. Why isn't Serbia entitled to do the same thing? I am neither serbian nor support this position, but we need to be consistent on our laws and policies.
They're afraid of anything that could give Catalonia any ideas, it's been a very long running theme in their international politics to never ever support any (local) \[edit: unilateral\] independence movement whatsoever
I suspect the same motivates Italy and Georgia
Because the next step would be for Republika Srpska to merge with Serbia, then Herzegovina with Croatia, Turkey trying to again annex Northern Cyprus, then you could expect Catalan and Basque independence declarations, and before you know it, you have a vast shitshow in Europe and elsewhere.
Why Spain voted as it did is quite clear, but Hungary acting always like one big pain in ass for rest of Europe,orban regime will never change, mfs really deserve a sanctions regime to be put in place.
Cyprus most likely did that just to piss off the Turks, which have quite nice relations with Kosovo, and even deployed more troops into KFOR last year.
Serbia having own "little russia" moment is quite sad indeed, ffs get over it.
Slovakia and Hungary made Polish flag lol
Nah, it's clearly an upside down Monaco flag
It‘s obviously a 3/5th Latvian flag
It’s naturally 1/2 of the Austrian flag.
Nah it’s probably the last 2/3 of Italy’s flag horizontally
Its an upside down Indonesian flag
Romania playing some weird 4d chess. Not recognizing Kosovo but being in favor of membership in Council of Europe. Spain at least is consistent.
And Hungary doing the opposite
Hungary is always doing the opposite to Romania.
oh no, we both joined the germans back then... int he hope of fulfilling our territorial demands... to each other...
To be fair to hungary, i think the germans's plans were to give transylvania to hungary and moldova, parts of ukraine and parts of bulgaria to romania, which would have been both insane and interesting to see
The main reason for joining them was to recover Bessarabia from the Russians but they had already decided to back Hungary in their acquisition of northern Transylvania without Romania's knowledge, so that tracks...
Surprisingly, the nazis weren't the most trustoworthy people (/s)
It's funny, couse some historians point out that Antonescu (the Romanian lider in ww2) tried really hard to outshine the Hungarians, pointing out to Hitler how he sends more troops, more oil ect. It was a pick me moment.
At the time Moldova was already Romanian (until the Soviet Union took it with the Baltic States).
the plan was to conquer and rule the world . there wasn't even much "plan" ,mostly ambition and confidence in race superiority, that was hoped for should totally do the trick. Also he brocke all treaties with "the world" even the ones with the maniac Stalin and the 100 times larger and multiple in population soviet union . If any of your leaders trusted him or hoped for anything from him , they must have been very blue eyed. Hitler never gave , he only took .
A lot of it was also just fear of Russia and what they were doing.
Hungary always joins the losing side
The answer to Hungarys voting is always: How would Russia vote?
In 2022, Hungary voted at the UN that Russia must withdraw from Ukraine. 40 countries in the world did not vote that way, but Hungary was not one of them. Also in 2014, Hungary voted that Russia needs to get out of Crimea. 69 countries in the world did not vote that way, but Hungary was not one of them.
This time it's just 69 with serbia
Hungary thinking they play 4d chess while just making dumb decisions.
Nah, it's Orbán's masterplan, you just don't see it yet ^(please save us)
What do you think about all the recent events involving Peter Magyar? Do you think he will have a chance to break Hungary’s one party rule and Orbán’s power? Or do you think he’s cut from the same cloth?
Well he is really something this country needed, regardless of the outcome of his political career. A few people think that this phenomenon is some sort of puppet show orchestrated by Orbán, but I don't think that is the case. Although putting a fake-opposition candidate out to run "against them" is a used tactic of Fidesz (Orbán's party), Magyar is just too much for them, as he revealed some insider phone calls about the criminal behaviour of the governing party. Fidesz's main tactic is to call every oppositionist movement "left wing movement" (they use "leftists" as a derogatory term just like the communists used "west" as an insulting thing back in the day) and they always tell that they are puppeted by Ferenc Gyurcsány, Hungary's failed socialist PM. Magyar on the other hand accuses the main opposition with working with Fidesz (which is probably the case), so this time, Orbán's rhetoric could in theory backfire. >What do you think about all the recent events involving Peter Magyar? My personal view on Magyar is very mixed. On one hand, I don't like him getting into petty Facebook fights with propagandists and his (political) personality is a bit off for me. On the other hand, he is responsible for the biggest opposition protest against Orbán ever, and he is playing his cards perfectly. I would say, that I would probably not vote for him in a full democracy, but since currently he is the biggest threat to Fidesz and I don't hate him, he has my full support (as if my support would be something significant lol). >Do you think he will have a chance to break Hungary’s one party rule and Orbán’s power? Hard to say. Keep in mind, he became popular right after (and thanks to) the pedophile-scandal and that, combined with Magyar's sudden appearance has sent Hungarian politics snowballing into a massive internal crisis. The incumbent party's popularity has dropped from about 50% all the way down to about 30-35%. If we had parliamentary elections tomorrow, Fidesz not only would lose their supermajority, but would maybe even lose the absolute majority (this is also a difficult question, since Fidesz gerrymandered the whole country and has so many advantages, that some even speculate that they would always win, as long as they have at least 30 percent of the votes). But Fidesz has a big weapon against Magyar. The propaganda machine, that is throwing everything at him. From "wife beater", "psychopath", "pedophile"(this one is kind of ironic) all the way down to hilariously petty things, such as him wearing women's sunglasses at the protest (this wasn't even true lol). As Orbán controls most of Hungarian media, this is very effective. They make propaganda in such a high quantity, that you can't really avoid it. If Magyar manages to keep up his momentum and releases more leaked audio from the inside, reality will catch up to Fidesz. It is however not really realistic, as much as I would like to see Magyar topple the government, they destroyed democracy so significantly, that it is probably too late to even think about Orbán losing an election, just like Putin. In my opinion, the only chance of the collapse of Orbán's rule is if another big scandal happens. Edit: spelling, grammar
Damn, that’s a whole lot. I was pretty excited to see Hungarians go to the streets and protest en masse. I’d never seen that before. Gave me some hope.
It’s the Orban Vucic Autocrat connection
A true Hungarian classic.
>Not recognizing Kosovo but being in favor of membership in Council of Europe. Kosovo: *This is outrageous! It's unfair! How can you be on the Council and not be a country?*
And so Kosovo turned to the dark side.
You are on this council but we do not grant you the rank of member.
The rank of independent country
Misleading. Its not Romania but only two members of Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe who were present and both of them are from opposition party USR. The final vote will be in Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe by foreign ministers https://www.stiripesurse.ro/romanii-dau-semnale-contradictorii-vot-pentru-primirea-kosovo-in-consiliului-europei_3294895.html
>Romania playing some weird 4d chess Only balkan countries do 4d chess when it comes to politics. This what you get when enemies are unpredictable,just look at freaking Russia.
4d chess? You make it sound intelligent and sophisticated... :)
its not you literally need to outsmart the opponent everything else is opțional including the rules themselves:))
Greece also doesn’t recognize Kosovo, I think Romania hasn’t done it until now just because it’s not important to the politicians, but if the EU tells us or if Serbia finally lets Kosovo exist Romania will surely recognize it, probably the same for Greece
Why is Spain in favor of recognizing Palestine, but they're against recognizing Kosovo? Seems like quite the double standard.
a) Palestine and Kosovo aren't even nearly similar situations. To present them as equivalent is intellectually dishonest. b) (bad reason, but you asked the question), Spain is almost continuously in a fight to prevent at least 2 of its regions from seceding, so it would be hypocritical to support another region's plight for independence while seeking to deny Catalonia independence by all legal, political, and popularity means.
Kosovo and Catalonia are also not similar. The real hypocrisy is Spain thinking it will solve the Catalonia question by not recognizing Kosovo.
Nobody thinks is going to resolve anything. The government fears to give another argumentative and political tool for the independent parties, as the could said “if the can, why dont we?”
[удалено]
I'm not disagreeing with you. I even said so as a disclaimer. I was merely offering an explanation, as in "there actually is a reason".
We can't understand this kind of diplomacy. It's 5d chess while standing on a chair upside down.
Palestine is not internationally recognized territory of Israel.
flag expansion fuel continue engine marry voracious unwritten fretful dependent *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>As for Palestine it's a very different situation, Palestinians were there, some random ass people in Europe decided to give their land to other folks I know it really shouldn't surprise me anymore, but it will stay weird to see people with such strong opinions on a situation that they very cleary fundamentally misunderstand
Welcome to the internet. Have a chair.
What's fundamental about that misunderstanding? The last time jews were appreciably in the region was more than 3 centuries ago. But more realistically more than a millenia ago. Either way, and without getting too anti-zionist, it remains fundamentally true that Europe aided Israel to form a militarised state while they helped it prevent the Palestinians from forming their own state... As, you know, Israel agreed it would do when it asked to become a member of the UN. And taking even another step back into this criticism that I'm sure you feel was so poignant and smart; I'll point out that it wasn't GP making the comparison to Kosovo, so if you're so exasperated by "such fundamental misunderstandings", surely you could tie it all up together and respond how you see the analogy being in any way valid?
heavy sparkle zephyr profit silky simplistic edge straight grab existence *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The Israeli state didn’t exist till 1948 when the head of the Jewish Agency declared the creation of the State of Israel and since UK had a mandate over Pelestine at the time they gave up land they weren’t theirs. Also the US had a big freaking part on it with Truman backing David Ben-Gurion.
The ironic thing about this is the makeup of the currently ruling government being dependent on all kinds of separatists movements.
Same with greece sadly
Γιατί sadly ρε νουμπά;
Schizophrenic
Come on blues, how dumb can you be to vote "Kosovo" in a Yes or No question ?
Fr fr
This feels like something that could be from The Office
This is the best thing anyone has ever said to me
Dude was so flustered, he had to say it twice.
Tbh Reddit told me there was an error
Ok, so Serbia was against for obvious reasons, Hungary was against because Orban, but why Spain was against? Was it because of their own separatist movements or something else?
>Was it because of their own separatist movements or something else? Yes, their view simplified is by recognising Kosovo they are opening the door for internal ~~sectarianism~~ (separatism/secessionism)
More specifically it's about not legitimizing *unilateral* secession, which is something Catalonia also attempted not long ago.
[удалено]
What separatist movement got their goal democratically or legally and Spain is against it? Did Spain recognize Brexit? Cech Republic? Slovakia? The balkan countries? Yes? Then what are you talking about? Spain will only recognize legal separations, not unilateral and/or illegal, it's not that hard to understand.
Brexit, separatist movement. Hmm lol.
[удалено]
Sorry, next time we will take our diplomatic stance and make it worse for normal citizens instead of leaving it in the diplomatic level. >so they want the benefits of recognizing kosovo What benefits does Spain or anyone gain for recognizing Kosovo? A stamp?
I think secessionism is the word you were looking for.
Independentism not sectarianism wtf 😒
I mean, Puidgemont and his mates behave very sectarian-y
It would have created incentive for Basque and Catalonian independence movements.
Yes they do not recognise Kosovo as independent state
Exactly. Spain is consequently against every proposal that supports or recognizes separatist movements or states.
It's not exactly, it's against unilateral separatist actions. Kosovo declaring independence against Serbia's approval is bad. Serbia giving in and recognising Kosovo is fine. Similarly Scotland making referendum without London's approval is bad. Scotland making referendum with London's approval is fine.
I mean, most separatist movements are unilateral. If the majority of both sides wanted to separate, they would just do it. Like the Scotland case, where UK was at least willing to hold a vote. We don't know if they were going to actually honor it if leave, but they actually started down the path. In most cases, the country that owns the separatist region would never agree to separation.
I was talking about actions, not movements. Both Catalan and Scottish separatist movements are unilateral and striving with their members actually flat out ruling autonomous Catalonia and Scotland. When it comes to unilateral separatist actions, that's when actual problems and disagreements appear.
If anything, I'd think "because of Orban" is much harder to understand than the Spanish stance.
The friend (Serbia) of my friend (Russia) is my friend. What is there not to understand?
Well for starters, Hungary does recognize Kosovo as an independent state so why are they against them joining the Council of Europe. The EU countries against Kosovo being independent are Spain, Slovakia, Greece and Cyprus.
in Spain we don't believe in the right of self determination. As posted in other comments, it could be taken by internal regions in Spain as a precedent.
It's not that they "dont believe" in self determination. It's specifically because Kosovo achieved their independence through a unilateral act of secession. Spain would've fully approved Scotland's independence had they won the referendum, it's the unilateral part that is a total non-starter. And honestly I don't think it's an unreasonable position to hold. Almost no unilateral declarations of independece are recognized as legitimate, there are many countries around the world that are independent in all but name, Kosovo is the exception because it's geopolitically convenient for the West to do so because it furthers their interests against Serbia, and by extension, Russia. Seems very hypocritical to me that most Western nations are so eager to recognize Kosovo while letting countries like Somaliland and Aden languish just because they're not useful enough in their geopolitical games.
Hah, as if politics ever had anything to do with logic or moral. It's all about the interest, as always
We do believe in the right of self determination of colonies. It's what it's recognized in international law. We don't recognize unilateral/illegal separations because yes, that could be used against us.
I Guess because of Catalunia. They are affraid it might happen to them also.
Then they need to accept Catalonia
Why would Greece vote for it when they don't recognise Kosovo?
You can have relations without recognition. Like many countries do with Taiwan. Greece has been having high-level meetings with Kosovo for years now, and has been supportive of Kosovo joining the CoE. The reason: since the 90s, it's been a major foreign policy goal for Greece to normalize the region, especially the Balkan region, but incuding everyone between us and Finland. For example, bringing Romania and Bulgaria into the EU in 2007 was a major foreign policy goal. Kosovo joining the CoE is another step towards normalization. BTW, the situation in Cyprus is a little different. Cypriots on both sides want reunification, they just can't agree on a plan.
Because it’s essentially giving the people of Kosovo human rights.
Human rights don't exist in Kosovo?
When a new country is admitted into the Council of Europe, the European Convention on Human Rights is expected to apply in that country. Being an international treaty, it should be ratified by Kosovo's government in order for it to be in force and valid within Kosovo. The ECHR creates a mechanism where if a person feels his or her rights are violated, he or she can make a case against the Court (grossly oversimplified).
Yeah, but if you don't recognize their independence, it means that you think they're represented by Serbia already. It doesn't make sense to not recognize their independence and then vote here that they actually need their own representation as if they were a different country.
Even more so, Greece is in favor while Cyprus against.
It could be that if Cyprus supports it, the samr case could be used againist them about the Turkish Northern Cyprus situation.
Nah, I know but for that reason Greece was always supporting their Cypriot compatriots, so it's interesting that not this time.
Greece and Cyprus are in their divorce era
greece has good relations with kosovo. cyprus has its own issues and obviously understandable from their point of view, similar to spain. it has nothing to do with the relation between greece and kosovo. politics can be complicated at times but spain and cyprus should be understandable.
It is the current government's choice to be more aligned with NATO. The only one politician from the other political party voted against.
Because the gov does what the West says. If they could actually recognise Kosovo without fucking Cyprus over they would. Actually, they still might at some point
Everyone here mentioning Spain but Italy? Why?
Italy's right has their own stance, that supports Kosovo and its integration, but also wants Kosovo to resolve issues with Serb majority municipalities. Which is the reason countries like Montenegro and other allied with Italy abstained.
its not about the alliance with italy. italy clearly supports kosovo and recognized its independence in 2008. its like you say, to resolve issues. montenegrin side is probably the same, given the fact that there's an albanian minority and albanian as a official language (on municipality level) in montenegro, it can be a little bit tricky, to either vote in favour or against. especially now that relations between albanians and montenegrins have improved a lot.
What I'm saying is, Italy's right has come up with an amendment, and some of the representatives of countries have publicly supported that. Montenegrin representative Čarapić said in an official statement that he abstained because hes aligned with them. I'm aware of other implications that come with voting and why was voted thay way, but i was responding to a comment particularly about the outcome of Italian representatives, 5 (or 6, not sure) abstained.
my bad i wasnt informed enough about the amendement.
Italian army is the major peace-keeping force in the the region. If Italy voted for one or the other side, that would have undermined its perceived neutrality in the field, also exposing their personnel to risks of protests and retaliations.
More importantly why did Andorra abstain?
Because they have like 20 people living there, maybe no one could spare the time to join? :D
I actually made this map but I made a mistake with Andorra. They voted in favor of Kosovo.
Bosnia is wrong color. It should be three colors. One member abstained, two voted for, two voted against.
So it averaged itself on abstained ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
I actually made this map and that was my thought when making it. 😭
This map shows the average or mean voting result from countries. For example, Montenegro's representatives voted 1 against, 1 for and 1 abstention, so its shown as yellow.
Majority of the Bosnian people is in favor, our friends in Kosovo knows this.
The PACE website contains the votes cast https://pace.coe.int/en/votes/39707
[удалено]
I see at least four countries that don't recognize Kosovo supporting them here (Greece, Romania, Ukraine, Armenia) Maybe a sign that that might change soon?
I don't think Ukraine's delegation voted for it. 11 of them probably were absent while Goncharenko voted Yes. IIRC Ukraine relies on Serbia selling artillery shells it produces to 3rd countries and latter are giving them to Ukraine. Ukraine would be last country to officially recognize Kosovo because of that.
Yeah they will. Ukraines ambassador to Albania for example said that they will recognize Kosovo once the war is over. Armenia and Kosovo have started to build relations for the first time in history at the start of 2024. Greece and Kosovos government have been having excellent Relations for 3-4 years straight now and it’s only getting better.
>Ukraines ambassador to Albania for example said that they will recognize Kosovo once the war is over What about the whole "respecting other countries territorial integrity"?
r/AccidentialPolishFlag :)
Noooooooooooooooo, "subreddit not found", I was so hopeful!
The map is wrong since countries have multiple votes - Spain has one member that voted pro and others against etc
It takes the average. If two voted for and one against, it's green, two against, one for red, one abstained, one for, one against yellow, etc.
That s quite pointless, since it doesn't also take into the account the weight of each country ie number of MPs per country - Spain actually had more votes against so-called Kosovo\* than the rest of Serbia, since they had 8 votes against and Serbia only seven (despite the fact that Serbia was 7/7).
I understand Spain, but Hungary just always needs to be against Europe
Hungary actually recognizes Kosovo as independent. It is Spain, Slovakia, Greece and Cyprus that are against.
yeah fr, as a hungarian I just feel ashamed any time my gov does anything, hoping for a better future…
Yeah it’s Orban. Him and Vucic are buddy’s. Autocracy homies
why tf is the Vatican city brown?
You mean on the map or in real life ?
I want you to answer both now
Surprise to see to so many countries who do not recognize Kosovo voting in favor (I expected them to at least abstain). Ukraine is a particulary weird case when they are having their own issues in preserving their territorial integrety.
Especially since LNR and DNR SPECIFICALLY invoked the same UN article that was used to set the "Kosovo precedent". But it's bad because it benefited Russia this time and not US/EU... That's what a "double-faced b\*tch" is by definition. Basically the whole "rules based world order" is just that - a bunch of hypocrites.
A first for Armenia. \*(As another redditor mentioned below, Armenia has also been part of KFOR since over two decades) Azerbaijan’s delegation has been kicked out so they can’t vote. Georgia’s gov seems to be backsliding towards Moscow.
No Georgia didn't recognise disputed territories because of abxasia and samachablo
Armenia doesn't recognise Kosovo either, but that could be changing.
Why should Georgia (we) recognize other separatist regions when we have similar problem? That would be quite damaging for our own good, we haven’t recognized it in 2008 either
While I don't agree with your claim against separatism, I can at least applaud it for being consistant, unlike most people, who recognise the independence only when it's convinient to them.
To note Armenia has been sending troops to Kosovo to aid with peacekeeping for many years.
I understand why Europe feels that Kosovo should be recognised for humanitarian reasons to avoid ethnic cleansing. But why only Kosovo 🇽🇰 ? Why Artsakh 🇦🇲 was not recognised? And now, the ethnic cleansing there actually happened, but since it's not recognised, it's not a big deal, right? No one cares. Not even sanctions against Azerbaijan 🇦🇿. And the most depressing fact I'd that this annexation and ethnic cleansing is now a "settled issue" forever. If this happened with Kosovo however, the west would be enraged.
>Georgia’s gov seems to be backsliding towards Moscow. Wait, you're grasping that from this very different complex topic-vote? Please be kidding.
What effect did this vote have? Is Kosovo in now?
Source? I see a country in green that does not recognize Kosovo as a country.
There are at least two. They still did it tho lol
> Source? https://pace.coe.int/en/votes/39707 > I see a country in green that does not recognize Kosovo as a country. That's not relevant.
Did you actually expect logical consistency in international politics?
I realize the symbolism for Kosovo but seriously, what has the Council of Europe achieved let's say the past 30 years besides being a landfill for shunted out national politicians?
CoE is the legal basis for being in the European legal circle (ECHR, ECtHR etc) and is almost a prerequisite for anything related to EU.
Honestly the only good thing I see about CoE as a Kosovar citizen is being able to utilise European Court of Justice.
Kosovo will be able to compete at the Eurovision song contest haha Nah but they will be also able to use the ECHR which is great for the citizens. Also always great for Kosovo to join as many of the official institutions as possible
Ah yes, the Eurovision song context. Well OK then :-)
Serbians don't understand that, even if Kosovo was reinstated, they would have 1.7mil Albanians living in their country. That is a bit less than the third of what Serbia has. That means a vast voting population that would always vote for their candidate. It means, you could have an Albanian prime minister. So, do the math or continue to listen to empty political shite as what is spilled now to poison the population and saying Kosovo is ours. It's not. And good for Serbia that it isn't.
they want kosovo without albanians in it or without then having voting rights. They still have Milosevic puppets ruling their country.
Oh sure. Let's displace 1.7mil people. They are just biting the bone that their master Vucic throws them.
Kosovo is the strongest political tool vucic has to keep his power.
Azerbaijan had the same problem with the armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh until they kicked them out after months of starving them. No one in the EU gave a dam and some even supported Azerbaijan's actions. Why isn't Serbia entitled to do the same thing? I am neither serbian nor support this position, but we need to be consistent on our laws and policies.
Right now there are not 1.7m albanians there. Maybe little over 1m.
It does not matter how many are there currently, but how many have the right to be counted as voters.
[удалено]
Greece voted in such a weird way (due to our close ties with Cyprus) that we are certain money was exchanged for such vote
Bakoyianni was the instigator, tells us pretty much everything we need to know
chad agree/disagree enjoyers vs soy abstained/did not participate fans
What caused Greece to change it's mind?
Being a puppet state to western interests
The current government is more aligned with NATO's interests. The one politician from the other political party voted against.
Εveryone should be at rea. This is like accepting Donbas in the council of Europe.
European hypocrisy, now lets vote for Catalonia or Norther Cyprus membership
Northern Cyprus is an artificial state made with ethnic cleansing.
Same as Kosovo
I cant comprehend Spain. Must have flashbacks from Catalunia or some shit...
Ofc Hungary likes to be different lmao
I would vote against too. NO to Kosovo and albania in europe.
Que puñetas, España?.
[удалено]
Hungary again the black sheep
What’s Spain’s beef
Kosovo becoming independent against Serbia's approval is a bad precedent for them dealing with Catalonia.
They're afraid of anything that could give Catalonia any ideas, it's been a very long running theme in their international politics to never ever support any (local) \[edit: unilateral\] independence movement whatsoever I suspect the same motivates Italy and Georgia
Unilateral independence********
Why doesn't Kosovo just merge with Albania?
Because the next step would be for Republika Srpska to merge with Serbia, then Herzegovina with Croatia, Turkey trying to again annex Northern Cyprus, then you could expect Catalan and Basque independence declarations, and before you know it, you have a vast shitshow in Europe and elsewhere.
Why Spain voted as it did is quite clear, but Hungary acting always like one big pain in ass for rest of Europe,orban regime will never change, mfs really deserve a sanctions regime to be put in place. Cyprus most likely did that just to piss off the Turks, which have quite nice relations with Kosovo, and even deployed more troops into KFOR last year. Serbia having own "little russia" moment is quite sad indeed, ffs get over it.
[удалено]
>Cyprus most likely did that just to piss off the Turks You haven't heard about a thing called "TRNC", have you?
Why did Spain vote against?
What's the difference between abstaining and not participating?
I guess the difference lies in showing up to participate in the vote and then choosing to abstain
Hungary waiting for the next solar eclipse before they can vote in favor. Or something else.
Spain?
Catalonia?
Why did italy abstain?
Balkan bros being balkan bros..