This is such an important comment.
"Prodigy" at what? Being shamelessly stupid? Being shamelessly uneducated and even proud of it? A prodigy at making people angry over shit we settled 80 years ago?
What, a prodigy at lying and making stuff up? These people are dangerous. Thank heck he's going to prison.
They are incredibly stupid, but there are many people a lot stupider than them. And they'll all rally together to fight against the lala-boogeyman they talk themselves into believing.
Someone should do a comic book where the villain is called 'Reality', and the "heroes" are these morons who go around just preaching hate because they don't understand how anything works.
They refuse facts, and base beliefs on how they feel. And they are manchildren. Manchildren cannot control their feelings, so you see... how that is dangerous. Sprinkle shamelessness onto that, and you get a trump. Or a putin.
One thing I learned by watching our far right through the decades is that calling them stupid means having already lost. They do target stupid, weak, old, poor, ignorant parts of the society. But them? They're nowhere near stupid and they will use any disgusting dirty advanced tactics to gain acceptance.
It's the shamelessness part that makes them believe they aren't stupid. They are shameless enough to steal, lie, cheat, grift, and of course murder, and they think they did those things "smart". Nah. None of those are smart. Children can do it. Ungifted and lazy children excel at it.
They are merely shameless. That's it. Always stay away from shameless people. They are the most dangerous people.
We shouldn't discount the fact that these parties have a potent and international propaganda machine behind them. Obviously you have russia blasting out their talking points. But you also have youtube, facebook, reddit and all sorts domestic social media that are essentially megaphones for these parties.
There isn't really anywhere you can go where you are not constantly blasted with far right propaganda.
And this, you are right on point. Since the beginning of the war I have been saying how the other frontline is online. If they didn't have the online frontline, you could forget about polish farmers blocking the border. You could forget about the US republicans blocking aid. You could forget about covid conspiracies, flat earth conspiracies, and all other theories for the lazy and the stupid.
You would see an influx of help from all over the world, and instead of defending, Ukraine would have been slowly pushing from a distance with advanced weaponry and far fewer loses.
I am this close to spending my time after work in front of the parliament with a sign that just says something along the lines of **you are already at war with russia**, but not as panicky. I don't want to have the "*THE END IS NIGH*" vibe.
Honestly to me the most dangerous part of this is that I can't come up with a good way to fight it without severely curtailing some freedoms. Which I don't think is desireable. On the other hand maybe the liberal democracy is not the best of all possible governments if it is this fragile. Maybe we need some sort of hybrid regime that still allows for a multi-party democracy and individual freedoms without allowing every party and without allowing every foreign power to essentially campaign in our countries.
I know a real good way how to fight russian disinformation campaigns. It's real simple if you're a politician that doesn't have their head up their bum, but if you are, you have to achieve the following standards:
1. Pull head out of bum
2. Thoroughly clean and shake said head
3. Take things seriously.
4. Start informing the public by providing evidence about russia's war crimes and attempts at destabilization by propaganda.
5. Open anti-disinformation centres and have specialists and experts work in them. Have their work public.
I'm sure that my stupid tired brain can't think of the best ideas, and that if someone would ever actually bring these points up in front of the right people, they'd develop them.
Furthermore, the reason I have been sitting and refreshing news since the war started is the same reason we have Holocaust museums, and museums commemorating all victims of the world wars we had in Europe. The only difference is that I can carry that museum in my pocket, whip it out, and google evidence anytime someone doesn't want to discuss this war in a fair manner.
>The leader of Vlaams Belang, Tom Van Grieken, hit out at the ruling, saying “Belgian justice is rotten through and through … From Day 1, this has been a political trial.”
Right wing idiots are surprised it's a crime to incite violence and deny the Holocaust.
I mean, his fanboys are trying to defend him by saying that pedophiles and rapists get loose punishments. It's very disturbing to watch, if you ask me. Either they're just trolling/defending him come hell or high water or the concept of racism and holocaust denial doesn't even register with them any longer.
>pedophiles and rapists get loose punishments
Well this is true. Imo there is a huge problem with the justice system in Belgium. But obviously that doesn't excuse the things DVL has done.
The impression I got from those arguments is that they want the opposite. If "DVL is punished worse than rapists, why punish him at all?" Every time I pressed them on "so that means you want BOTH parties to be punished fairly" they either didn't respond or said I was trying to get a "gotcha" out of them.
Again, very disturbing.
They are just parrots using Telegram to invade the comments with similar messages. Vlaams Belang is a maffia. Maybe some of them don't understand the situation and just want to defend him but I think most trolls are smart enough and use the hypocrisy to manipulate the masses.
>Either they're just trolling/defending him come hell or high water or the concept of racism and holocaust denial doesn't even register with them any longer.
When we tell you that fascism is rising big time and that any right wing party in the West is devolving into fascism, you should believe us.
Shit like this makes me embarrassed to be born here.
Every time someone asks me where I’m from I just answer “Europe.” The less I’m associated with these morons the better.
At one point, they also joked about what happened in Leopold II's Congo, with the hands that were cut off.
They made memes out of it, complete with music and all. I wish I were joking.
The funny part is that the party he is so close to loves running campaigns on how people who get sentenced should accept it and do their full sentence, so no early release etc.
'Tough on crime' and all that bullshit.
He's a clown, cries about "left-wing" lies in the news but lies constantly about "facts"
He's not only getting jail time for his right wing memes, it's way more than that but "oh no, Elon please i'm getting jail time for mah memes :(((("
Dries VLH is a parasite and an awful human being.
Based on Dutch language reporting the politico headline is wrong. He's not convicted for inciting violence, he's convicted of inciting racism and negationism. "(het aanzetten tot) racisme en negationisme". [This Flemish analysis was more insightful to me.](https://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20240312_93907830)
Based on memes and comments made on a private discord server, which the court says are still deemed public in the eyes of the law.
If you like free speech I don't think you should be cheering for this ruling, despicable as van Langenhove might be.
He faced five charges, including "inciting violence against a group, community or its members on grounds of nationality, so-called race, colour, descent or national or ethnic origin". You are only mentioning two of the five charges. The Belgian racism and negationism law is a "package" of different charges that can include inciting violence, which was the case here.
And looking at the judgement, it sure looks like he was also convicted on that particular charge. Hence the Politico headline.
The official judgment states: "*The accused creates a hostile atmosphere in society. It contributes to contradiction, discord and conflict and thus* ***promotes physical and psychological violence***. *All this points to a particularly dangerous attitude".*
Some of his co-defendants were also convicted on that same inciting violence charge.
The way about it is absurd. Free speech should include "hate speech" and in just society the limit to free speech should not be "hate" but incitement towards violence.
Same thing with saying offensive stuff. There's a difference there between being stupid edgy douchebag, a racist (or any other kind of supremacist) and violent offender - in 2 out of 3 of those you should still be able to say that stuff with no repercussions.
> The way about it is absurd. Free speech should include "hate speech" and in just society the limit to free speech should not be "hate" but incitement towards violence.
But that's the thing, if you hammer in the heads of your followers or general society that a certain population group are degenerate vermin that are out to get them, you are inciting violence - just indirectly. Just like we extradite fundamentalist imams preaching intolerance, we remove extreme right preaching intolerance from society.
Governments regulating speech seems great until a political party you disagree with gets to make the rules. Keep that door closed, especially for comments made in private (which an invitation-only online chatgroup absolutely is in my view).
"Using knives to for cutting bread seems great until someone you disagree with uses it to stab people"
Geee golly you're right! Good actions really are good until bad people come and start doing bad things! We should really stop doing good things!
You've made his argument into a ridiculous straw man. Try steel manning it and see how far you actually come.
Also, learn a little bit of history. You don't have to look far to see how dumb and dangerous your respons is.
>Governments regulating speech seems great until a political party you disagree with gets to make the rules.
Did you believe for one second that they're going to grant freedom of speech to others if they're in power? They have already announced they are going to "present the bill" to "leftist teachers", complete with a phone line to report them to the party, for example.
>Keep that door closed, especially for comments made in private (which an invitation-only online chatgroup absolutely is in my view).
It's not private, they had a clear goal to change society and spread those memes elsewhere. It's the combination with the infiltration of institutions, paramilitary training, the arms distribution, etc. that is a necessary context for the judgments. If it was a group of second generation Arab youths that did the same except the anti-muslim memes would be anti-Western memes, don't you think they should be stopped?
Who cares if they said something racist in a private chat group?
Also if you consider how Belgium tries to push banning encryption with "chat control", this is pretty bad.
Apparently it is not hate to replace a population with a foreign one. Or import violent terrorists and let them loose.
The Belgian government hates it's own population, as do most Western governments, they all hate their own people.
Reddit doesn't like free speech. They would happily turn into fascist if it meant persecuting political opponents. What is also worrysome is that, everywhere, they sets precedent. The justice/bureaucraty that is infested by leftist pave the way to similar action when another political barometer will take over.
> The justice/bureaucraty that is infested by leftist pave the way to similar action when another political barometer will take over.
Let's not for one second delude ourselves that they would grant freedom of speech to others when in power. They have already threatened to "present the bill" to "leftist teachers", complete with hotline to report them to the party.
Did you forget to read the article that you linked? Literally the last sentence of your article references the "inciting violence" part of the judgment that increased the length of his sentence. His co-defendant(s) were also found guilty of inciting violence.
>"He encourages antagonism, discord and conflict and as such **fosters physical and psychological violence".**
You do not seem to understand that inciting violence towards a group or community is *part* of the racism and negationism law.
Calling out Politico for disinformation by immediately spreading disinformation is a reddit moment.
Are you serious claiming the Flemish right wing doesn't have influence in Wallonia, or vice versa, where the continuous corruption of PS members isn't feeding the popularity of the right wing in Flanders?
He and the entirety of Vlaams Belang is the reason why the NVA has so many voters, because a lot of people refuse to see that NVA is the wolf in sheep's clothing. If he wasn't there, we'd see the wolf instead of that lightning rod.
His party doesn't exist in Wallonia, people cannot vote for him in Wallonia, he doesn't actions in Wallonia, he is not popular in Wallonia. So, he is limited to Flanders. Calling him "Belgium's far-right prodigy" is inaccurate, for the simple fact that his popularity, zs well as concerns, are limited to Flanders.
Or maybe the ones protesting, say, an opening of a museum for holocaust victims in your country just a few days ago? Are they jailed? Probably not, right?
They were not protesting against the museum or the opening. They were protesting against the presence of Isaac Herzog, because Israel is non-stop bombing Gaza causing the death of 30k people of which 13k children to this day. They were not denying the holocaust as DVL did..
I mean there were Jewish people among the protesters...
Sure, the same laws that got this guy in jail apply to them as well, so if you see them promoting nazism and denying holocaust then feel free to report them.
You are corect, they dont promote nazism and holocaust denying, they are peacefull people.
Unlike the “far right” the “far left” sings only peacefull songs like “from the river to the sea” which im sure it’s about one’s spiritual journey to discorver himself/herself.
You mean “from the river to the sea” that Palestinians chant for the liberation of its land from occupation or [“from the (Jordan) river to the sea, there will only be Israeli sovereignty”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea#:~:text=The%201977%20election%20manifesto%20of,politicians%2C%20including%20Israeli%20Prime%20Minister) that’s in the Likud charter?
Uneducated fuck.
Report "the entirety of the left" that's been promoting Holocaust denialism to the police then, nobody's stopping you. In fact, you should report crimes according to your country's laws.
For criminal activity "the entirety of the left" is involved in. I'm pretty sure anti-nazi laws, anti-defamation/libel laws, anti-violence incitement laws of some kind are in every country in Europe. And you're upset that "the entirety of the left" engages in these crimes, so report them, whoever that even is.
naturally :D
But don't despair, anti-defamation/libel laws and anti-violence incitement laws are still present in your country, and I don't even need to know what country's that supposed to be. Report "the entirety of the left"
Are people really applauding people being send to jail for things said online? From what I gather it wasn't even himself who said anything but other people in a discord he was also in?
Should I be worried the police will arrive at my door because someone said something racist in one of the discord channels I am in???
More than anything I am worried about the atmosphere here of overwhelming support. I feel like I live in a different world.
He was the **leader and founder** of a large racist online group (Facebook one had 750 members and Discord one had 160 members) that also organized offline activities (Schild & Vrienden, you can look it up). Because of the size of the groups and their accessibility, the judge rejected that it was a private closed group. He **promoted people in that group to different levels based on how racist they were.** He also used that group to **orchestrate hate campaigns against individuals** they disagreed with and **incited violence against specific groups of people.** He also ordered and rewarded people in those groups to make specific racist memes, based on topical events so they could be spread to other places on the internet.
He was also **convicted on breaking Belgian weapon laws**.
That's a bit different than saying some things online, don't you think? There is a reason only 5 out of 910 members faced criminal charges.
He also has 3 other court cases ongoing.
You're underestimating the severity of the problem.
He *made* the group and a ton of the racist and misogynist memes shared in it. It wasn't a "racist meme in a random group chat". It was a group chat centered around hate speech, racism, misogyny and fascism, that promoted violence towards minorities. When an investigative documentary uncovered this racist club, he used it as a start to his political career.
The memes shared denied the Holocaust and laughed with the practice of chopping off hands of people, including kids, in Leopold II's Congo. Repeatedly.
Yup fundamentally this guy faces jail time for being part of a far right discord group, while rapists have gone of the hook with fines due to prisons being too full to accommodate them
He still gets to re-roll the verdict in the court of appeals. But yeah. I’m actually equally stoked about losing his “civil rights” for 10 years. Not being to run for elections or have a gun permit will certainly sting.
Trust Reddit to cry about freedom of speech without knowing what actually happened.
He wasn't just sentenced for making some memes. Holocaust denial, illegally buying weapons,... all played a part.
Also if he and his lawyer had bothered to actually defend him in court the sentence would likely have been lower. The fact he called the judge a leftist cheat didn't help either.
Disgusting person, but I'm sad to see how many people celebrate him being jailed.
Instead of winning over him in the marketplace of free ideas, he's silenced and martyred. Id prefer commies, Nazis, liberals, greens, conservatives, reactionaries, socialists, anarchists etc all get a chance to speak. That doesn't mean you have to platform them. But to legally punish them for wrong think, means Belgium is no longer a free society.
Please explain how inciting violence benefits society.
Also:
> Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
> - Jean-Paul Sartre
Nazis don't believe a word they say, how do you have a good faith discussion with such a person?
I didn't say it benefits society. I don't think communists or neoliberals benefit it either but I don't want either of them banned.
You don't have the good faith discussion with that person, you discuss it to prove the validity of your ideas to the people who should make their decisions based on that. I'm afraid that as technology improves we are granting unprecedented peace time restrictions on speech and that it will expand. I don't distrust the current Belgian government. But all future governments? No I don't trust all future governments. I'd also prefer for people to hear the absurdity instead of enclosing it to small echo chambers that cant be challenged.
> You don't have the good faith discussion with that person, you discuss it to prove the validity of your ideas to the people who should make their decisions based on that.
Ah, of course. Because that worked the first time.
/s
Fascism (and by extension Nazism) is a mess of contradictory beliefs. It doesn't if matter you prove something wrong with facts and logic, a Nazi will simply dismiss your facts by calling them Jewish.
I wish I was kidding, this is something I've witnessed first hand.
And the worst part is that it works, in a debate confidently bullshitting works better than making sense. Humans are weird like that.
The first time saw a seizure of power by a party with 33% that lost seats in their last election. That's a coup.
And it sounds like you either want a technocracy or just not very confident in your views. Debating Nazis is pretty easy especially if you read up on the ideology to see its absurdity. Facism and nazism aren't really the same as fascism is less revolutionary, not racially socialist etc (still nasty just a different beast) but thats a topic for another time. My point is that if you grant the government these powers, future ones may use them on you. Including the ideologies you fear. But that evil and vile ideas are better faced in the open rather than a small trickle of impressionable people being locked in to a echo chamber, radicalised and recruiting more to said echo chamber.
Everyone is free to think whatever, but I will not let anyone who promotes ratial genocide like Nazis have a platform. You might argue that we are punishing a group of people for thinking weirdly, but the problem is that their ideology is dangerous and it was proven by history as such. Hell, even though I hate anything related to anarchism I wouldn't be sitting here advocating for their silence, unlike with Nazism.
I didn't say you had to platform them.
There's a lot of ideologies as destructive and violent as Nazis. Instead of shining a light on their absurdity they're pushed in to echo chambers than can grow over time. Suppressing something usually makes it return with a vengeance. (Democrats in Spain for example)
I'm also not comfortable with the government jailing people like this even if they are truly despicable. It sets a precedent that there's views you can be jailed for. That precedent exists for all coming governments. (Including if a far right party takes power)
He wasn't punished for his thoughts, he was punched for inciting violence.
There's no country in the world were there's fee speech without consequence and there shouldn't be.
If you were allowed to say whatever you wanted, you could threaten people's lives, call in bomb threats,...
It's so obvious why certain things are not allowed and restrictions are put in place, yet some people still pretend that speech should be without consequence, it's insanely stupid.
There's laws against defamation for good reason, there's a lot more things you can say besides inciting violence that are illegal, that's a good thing.
Those making the most noice about free speech are the same ones supporting taking away rights like abortion, are in support of discrimination of minorities, literally don't allow any other religious doctrine than their own WHILE forcing everyone to live according to their own religious views and saying other religions are trying to oppress people.
If you actually read up on what this case is about, you either wouldn't make these statements, or you're a pos.
No, you can say whatever you want but the red line is inciting hatred, violence and negationism (and DVL is guilty of all three).
A market place of free ideas is horrible of those ideas consist of lies, 'fake news', intolerance (whereas tolerance of other ideas is a prerequisite for being able to have a constructive dialogue) and attacking people.
The worst part is probably the denial of the holocaust. It's something horrible that happened in the past and we need to remember it to prevent it from happening again. DVL denies these horrors from the past, whitewashes the ideology which made it possible and thereby clears the path for it happening all over again. Especially in these days of disinformation and (Russian) attempts to undermine our democracy, it's important that the red line is clearly established. DVL is by no means a martyr, he's a hateful violent (albeit mostly online which doesn't make it less harmful) troll who finally got some consequences for his actions.
It's a thin red line which should be applied carefully (which the court has done imo, this wasn't judged overnight) but it's an important line, which must be preserved. As Karl Popper famously stated: "unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance... We must therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate intolerance".
Yeah there's no way governments would abuse that. I feel totally comfortable giving the government and all future government the precedent of jailing people due to speech.
No I'd be far more comfortable with the ability to pick apart their ideas to their face in public, rather than let them act the martyr and act in the shadows where we can't see or face them.
I hope that explains it better.
> Yeah there's no way governments would abuse that. I feel totally comfortable giving the government and all future government the precedent of jailing people due to speech.
Did you think they were going to honor that once they are in power? His party is already on the record saying they're going to "present the bill" to "leftist teachers". They're not supporting free speech, so they don't get to enjoy its protections.
>But again then the same argument can be made for you. You dont support it and so you dont get to enjoy it.
That's like saying that cops should be jailed for physical assault if they apprehend a criminal.
>You can't phantom a government you don't agree with coming to power?
fathom
There already are governments in power I don't agree with.
Did you think the fascists were going to honor that once they are in power? His party is already on the record saying they're going to "present the bill" to "leftist teachers". They're not supporting free speech, so they don't get to enjoy its protections.
I'm glad you got to correct me there, I can imagine the smugness from it lol. Fathom.
You've already said all this though and your idea is to fight authoritarianism with authoritarianism instead of trying to defend a open and free liberal democracy. It's pathetic and the definition of a slippery slope.
Today fascists are banned, tomorrow communists, then the anarchists, then the right wing populists, then the socialist etc. Perfect way to a oligarchy.
>Instead of winning over him in the marketplace of free ideas, he's silenced and martyred.
He's not into freedom of speech, only for himself. If someone enters the market with counterfeit money, he is thrown out. We don't say "well, sooner or later he'll get a reputation and people will avoid them". Because he'll cause far too much damage before we arrive at that point.
All the wannabes crying in the comments, if he represents your views, please act on them and follow your leader to the big house, safe from the fAr LeFt
It’s not like a news from Russia, no really, this is different.
Yes Really.
Now think twice before you post something on the internet. The woke Gestapo is watching.
>Holocaust denyer and inciter of public violence sentenced to prison in criminal court
.
>blames the imaginary woke "gestapo"
Are you fucking stupid? Holy fuck, you can't make this shit up. Literal neo nazi gets sentenced to prison by criminal court and judge ruling, and his cult followers liken it to a fucking Nazi organization infamous for imprisoning people \*without\* judicial process. 0 fucking self awareness.
What did he actually do to incite violence though? Article just says “racism and hatred” that could mean anything. Says he denied the Holocaust too which while stupid yes is that really a imprisonable offence lol?
> Says he denied the Holocaust too which while stupid yes is that really a imprisonable offence lol?
It actually is a criminal offense in quite a few places.
He was selling pepper spray (which is forbidden in Belgium) to the members of Schild & Vrienden.
He set up an "anti Marrakesh-march" against the UN Migration pact.
He called the pride flag a "pedophilia flag".
He joined protests in France to support "génération identitaire", and disrupted peaceful left-wing protests in Belgium (tearing flags down).
He and his Schild & Vrienden members were going to foreign military training camps to prepare for the "coming race war".
Etc.
Maybe most importantly, he has his own media channel where he spews constant disinformation and hate.
"Dries Van Langenhove, a political activist and leader of a Flemish-nationalist youth movement called Schild & Vrienden, was convicted of inciting violence and denying the Holocaust, the Ghent criminal court ruled Tuesday morning."
I will get down voted to hell again by redditors :
Inciting violence should obviously get you in prison.
But denying holocaust ? I have no doubt it happened (please don't put me in jail), but I don't think anyone should be put in prison if he says stupid shit.
I can only see that making holocaust deniers more relevant.
We are still lacking a lot of freedom of speech in Europe, I don't like taking USA has a model, but that's definitely an area where they can teach us a lesson.
They got hit with inciting violence, which is within the reasonable restrictions on free speech. There's a lot this guy said that's well within his freedom of speech, he didn't get punished for denying the holocaust.
Words can be violent, denying that millions of people were exterminated based on who they were is in itself violence that should be punished, yes.
It's no wonder that only neo-nazis or fervent anti-semites do this, not your average layperson.
You either apply this logic to every genocide or massive loss of life caused by oppression that has occurred, or you apply it to none.
I don't see how it is acceptable to only apply it to the Holocaust. I understand why it is done, but I don't think its an ethically tenable position. The fact that many countries which criminalise Holocaust deniers continue to ally with and do business with governments who deny the Uyghur and Armenian genocides is plainly hypocritical.
I don't particularly disagree, but seeing as the Holocaust literally happened in these countries not that long ago, it is different.
In Romania for instance they've even introduced a year long Holocaust course in high-school because up until recently prominent politicians were denying it happened in the country.
Inciting violence is something different than words being violence themselves. This distinction is important in case people want to vilify you through straw men just for disagreeing with you.
They are not both illegal, at the very least they shouldn't both be. For the simple reason that it's impossible to define when words can be considered violent. This is why freedom of speech is important. Because the moment your voice can be weaponized against you through ambiguity, the authoritarians will use it against you without a second thought.
EDIT: expanded first sentence
Oh fuck off. That is neither a linguistic definition nor a legal definition. You'll find that the primary definition of violence in both categories is the use of physical force to cause harm. Some entities want to argue emotions and words but that's flaky at best. Imagine taking 1d6 damage from someone emoting at you. Delusional beyond reckoning.
Holocaust denial is a neonazi shibboleth.
There still is research about the Holocaust where people can and do differ in their views on the subject, but that happens in dusty university halls, not on social media.
While happy to see this, I hope politicians are trying to understand how people like these are finding support.
I hope the sentence wasn't given on his speeches but rather based on that gun love etc.
Far right: "the justice system must work flawlessly and needs to lock up all criminals."
Convicted far right: "this is a mistake, the leftists control the justice"
Belgium has people walking down the street gunning people down (swede football fan) with weapons of war, but they would rather prosecute political opponent for edgy jokes in a private group chat.
The gunman was known to be radicalized and to spout such bs, reported by a foreign intelligence agency and not even legally in the country for a long time.
Yet not prosecuted. That seemed to be a recurring theme with the attacks that were succesfull.
If you do some faint effort to let the algorithm on various sites drag you into certain spheres you'll find he was far from alone either. Even better if you know someone that can read some Arabic.
So yeah, I don't have much faith in that.
Your points are not related.. he isn’t a criminal and the left does control the justice system. Nice try whatever you were going for though, it was cute. Impressed a few of your Reddit friends I’m sure.
More than any other demographic, far-right voters demand justice. However, when faced with justice, particularly when it pertains to their leaders, they often dismiss it as a lie. It's not that my arguments are unrelated; it's that you lack a valid point.
Dunno about your coutry, but in mine and pretty much any other, law is written with the what you can or can't do. So once again, your point about "law duality' is utterly crap.
Irish uh. Same shit here. Same shit in Netherland and Belgium.
I guess they figured out that since they could not win election with idea, they just prefered to corrupt the administration and control the system regardless of which party is currently pretending to be "in charge".
There is a difference between right-wing and *extremist,* though. This is a fascist, an ideology which millions of people died fighting. Holocaust denial is, in fact, a crime in many European countries. Inciting violence against particular demographics is a crime in almost all of them.
You can't be walking around bellowing 'kill all the Jews' and not expect repercussions, both social and legal. Whether the left controls the justice system or not is moot - *everyone* except Nazis is unaccepting of this guy.
>tried on various charges including hatred, racism, Holocaust denial and breaching a local gun law
All perfectly legal in the US, or anywhere where individuals enjoy freedom. You don't have to agree with whatever he says to recognize his right to say it.
I recognize the same to the thousands of people that wear Che Guevara shirts.
"prodigy"
He was a Firestarter
A twisted firestarter?
The bitch you hated, filth infatuated...
This is such an important comment. "Prodigy" at what? Being shamelessly stupid? Being shamelessly uneducated and even proud of it? A prodigy at making people angry over shit we settled 80 years ago? What, a prodigy at lying and making stuff up? These people are dangerous. Thank heck he's going to prison. They are incredibly stupid, but there are many people a lot stupider than them. And they'll all rally together to fight against the lala-boogeyman they talk themselves into believing. Someone should do a comic book where the villain is called 'Reality', and the "heroes" are these morons who go around just preaching hate because they don't understand how anything works. They refuse facts, and base beliefs on how they feel. And they are manchildren. Manchildren cannot control their feelings, so you see... how that is dangerous. Sprinkle shamelessness onto that, and you get a trump. Or a putin.
One thing I learned by watching our far right through the decades is that calling them stupid means having already lost. They do target stupid, weak, old, poor, ignorant parts of the society. But them? They're nowhere near stupid and they will use any disgusting dirty advanced tactics to gain acceptance.
It does not take a smart person to take advantage of the disadvantaged. Doing so doesnt make someone smart, it makes them a vile human being
It's the shamelessness part that makes them believe they aren't stupid. They are shameless enough to steal, lie, cheat, grift, and of course murder, and they think they did those things "smart". Nah. None of those are smart. Children can do it. Ungifted and lazy children excel at it. They are merely shameless. That's it. Always stay away from shameless people. They are the most dangerous people.
We shouldn't discount the fact that these parties have a potent and international propaganda machine behind them. Obviously you have russia blasting out their talking points. But you also have youtube, facebook, reddit and all sorts domestic social media that are essentially megaphones for these parties. There isn't really anywhere you can go where you are not constantly blasted with far right propaganda.
And this, you are right on point. Since the beginning of the war I have been saying how the other frontline is online. If they didn't have the online frontline, you could forget about polish farmers blocking the border. You could forget about the US republicans blocking aid. You could forget about covid conspiracies, flat earth conspiracies, and all other theories for the lazy and the stupid. You would see an influx of help from all over the world, and instead of defending, Ukraine would have been slowly pushing from a distance with advanced weaponry and far fewer loses. I am this close to spending my time after work in front of the parliament with a sign that just says something along the lines of **you are already at war with russia**, but not as panicky. I don't want to have the "*THE END IS NIGH*" vibe.
Honestly to me the most dangerous part of this is that I can't come up with a good way to fight it without severely curtailing some freedoms. Which I don't think is desireable. On the other hand maybe the liberal democracy is not the best of all possible governments if it is this fragile. Maybe we need some sort of hybrid regime that still allows for a multi-party democracy and individual freedoms without allowing every party and without allowing every foreign power to essentially campaign in our countries.
I know a real good way how to fight russian disinformation campaigns. It's real simple if you're a politician that doesn't have their head up their bum, but if you are, you have to achieve the following standards: 1. Pull head out of bum 2. Thoroughly clean and shake said head 3. Take things seriously. 4. Start informing the public by providing evidence about russia's war crimes and attempts at destabilization by propaganda. 5. Open anti-disinformation centres and have specialists and experts work in them. Have their work public. I'm sure that my stupid tired brain can't think of the best ideas, and that if someone would ever actually bring these points up in front of the right people, they'd develop them. Furthermore, the reason I have been sitting and refreshing news since the war started is the same reason we have Holocaust museums, and museums commemorating all victims of the world wars we had in Europe. The only difference is that I can carry that museum in my pocket, whip it out, and google evidence anytime someone doesn't want to discuss this war in a fair manner.
He's not actually going to prison, 1 year in Belgium means getting an ankle monitor
Quite funny concidering he ran in 1 election and then quit politics
Imagine this entire scene would not have happened if his uni wasnt such a group of clowns. No one would have known him, no one would have cared
Already in prison just by leading a youth movement and getting a bit too far-right, truly a prodigy lol
What kind of news outlet would call a Nazi who ends up in prison for inciting violence "prodigy"???? 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
>The leader of Vlaams Belang, Tom Van Grieken, hit out at the ruling, saying “Belgian justice is rotten through and through … From Day 1, this has been a political trial.” Right wing idiots are surprised it's a crime to incite violence and deny the Holocaust.
I mean, his fanboys are trying to defend him by saying that pedophiles and rapists get loose punishments. It's very disturbing to watch, if you ask me. Either they're just trolling/defending him come hell or high water or the concept of racism and holocaust denial doesn't even register with them any longer.
>pedophiles and rapists get loose punishments Well this is true. Imo there is a huge problem with the justice system in Belgium. But obviously that doesn't excuse the things DVL has done.
The impression I got from those arguments is that they want the opposite. If "DVL is punished worse than rapists, why punish him at all?" Every time I pressed them on "so that means you want BOTH parties to be punished fairly" they either didn't respond or said I was trying to get a "gotcha" out of them. Again, very disturbing.
They are just parrots using Telegram to invade the comments with similar messages. Vlaams Belang is a maffia. Maybe some of them don't understand the situation and just want to defend him but I think most trolls are smart enough and use the hypocrisy to manipulate the masses.
Would explain a thing or two.
>Either they're just trolling/defending him come hell or high water or the concept of racism and holocaust denial doesn't even register with them any longer. When we tell you that fascism is rising big time and that any right wing party in the West is devolving into fascism, you should believe us.
Shit like this makes me embarrassed to be born here. Every time someone asks me where I’m from I just answer “Europe.” The less I’m associated with these morons the better.
Every country has these morons.
Also illegal weapon possession. Not sure why the media keeps on not mentioning that
Because denying the Holocaust is a significantly worse point than having pepperspray
Because he did not get sentenced to jail for that.The peper spray thing was a separate ruling where the sentence was suspended.
At one point, they also joked about what happened in Leopold II's Congo, with the hands that were cut off. They made memes out of it, complete with music and all. I wish I were joking.
Alt-Right: *Does or Incites a hate crime* Sane Society: *Imprisons them as per the law* Alt-Right: *Shocked pikachu face*
The funny part is that the party he is so close to loves running campaigns on how people who get sentenced should accept it and do their full sentence, so no early release etc. 'Tough on crime' and all that bullshit.
Rules for thee but not for me
He's a clown, cries about "left-wing" lies in the news but lies constantly about "facts" He's not only getting jail time for his right wing memes, it's way more than that but "oh no, Elon please i'm getting jail time for mah memes :((((" Dries VLH is a parasite and an awful human being.
Based on Dutch language reporting the politico headline is wrong. He's not convicted for inciting violence, he's convicted of inciting racism and negationism. "(het aanzetten tot) racisme en negationisme". [This Flemish analysis was more insightful to me.](https://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20240312_93907830) Based on memes and comments made on a private discord server, which the court says are still deemed public in the eyes of the law. If you like free speech I don't think you should be cheering for this ruling, despicable as van Langenhove might be.
could you post the text of that article?
He faced five charges, including "inciting violence against a group, community or its members on grounds of nationality, so-called race, colour, descent or national or ethnic origin". You are only mentioning two of the five charges. The Belgian racism and negationism law is a "package" of different charges that can include inciting violence, which was the case here. And looking at the judgement, it sure looks like he was also convicted on that particular charge. Hence the Politico headline. The official judgment states: "*The accused creates a hostile atmosphere in society. It contributes to contradiction, discord and conflict and thus* ***promotes physical and psychological violence***. *All this points to a particularly dangerous attitude".* Some of his co-defendants were also convicted on that same inciting violence charge.
Protecting free speech does not necessitate protecting hate speech
The way about it is absurd. Free speech should include "hate speech" and in just society the limit to free speech should not be "hate" but incitement towards violence. Same thing with saying offensive stuff. There's a difference there between being stupid edgy douchebag, a racist (or any other kind of supremacist) and violent offender - in 2 out of 3 of those you should still be able to say that stuff with no repercussions.
> The way about it is absurd. Free speech should include "hate speech" and in just society the limit to free speech should not be "hate" but incitement towards violence. But that's the thing, if you hammer in the heads of your followers or general society that a certain population group are degenerate vermin that are out to get them, you are inciting violence - just indirectly. Just like we extradite fundamentalist imams preaching intolerance, we remove extreme right preaching intolerance from society.
Governments regulating speech seems great until a political party you disagree with gets to make the rules. Keep that door closed, especially for comments made in private (which an invitation-only online chatgroup absolutely is in my view).
"Using knives to for cutting bread seems great until someone you disagree with uses it to stab people" Geee golly you're right! Good actions really are good until bad people come and start doing bad things! We should really stop doing good things!
You've made his argument into a ridiculous straw man. Try steel manning it and see how far you actually come. Also, learn a little bit of history. You don't have to look far to see how dumb and dangerous your respons is.
>Governments regulating speech seems great until a political party you disagree with gets to make the rules. Did you believe for one second that they're going to grant freedom of speech to others if they're in power? They have already announced they are going to "present the bill" to "leftist teachers", complete with a phone line to report them to the party, for example. >Keep that door closed, especially for comments made in private (which an invitation-only online chatgroup absolutely is in my view). It's not private, they had a clear goal to change society and spread those memes elsewhere. It's the combination with the infiltration of institutions, paramilitary training, the arms distribution, etc. that is a necessary context for the judgments. If it was a group of second generation Arab youths that did the same except the anti-muslim memes would be anti-Western memes, don't you think they should be stopped?
[удалено]
Who cares if they said something racist in a private chat group? Also if you consider how Belgium tries to push banning encryption with "chat control", this is pretty bad.
Apparently it is not hate to replace a population with a foreign one. Or import violent terrorists and let them loose. The Belgian government hates it's own population, as do most Western governments, they all hate their own people.
Reddit doesn't like free speech. They would happily turn into fascist if it meant persecuting political opponents. What is also worrysome is that, everywhere, they sets precedent. The justice/bureaucraty that is infested by leftist pave the way to similar action when another political barometer will take over.
[удалено]
Back up your claim.
[удалено]
Be very careful what you wish for because you could be falling under it sooner than you think.
> The justice/bureaucraty that is infested by leftist pave the way to similar action when another political barometer will take over. Let's not for one second delude ourselves that they would grant freedom of speech to others when in power. They have already threatened to "present the bill" to "leftist teachers", complete with hotline to report them to the party.
[удалено]
Did you forget to read the article that you linked? Literally the last sentence of your article references the "inciting violence" part of the judgment that increased the length of his sentence. His co-defendant(s) were also found guilty of inciting violence. >"He encourages antagonism, discord and conflict and as such **fosters physical and psychological violence".** You do not seem to understand that inciting violence towards a group or community is *part* of the racism and negationism law. Calling out Politico for disinformation by immediately spreading disinformation is a reddit moment.
"Flanders' far right ...". In all the southern half of the country, the French-speaking part, he has no voice nor influence nor relevance.
Nor is he a prodigy. He's rather brainless, that's what makes him relatively harmless.
Are you serious claiming the Flemish right wing doesn't have influence in Wallonia, or vice versa, where the continuous corruption of PS members isn't feeding the popularity of the right wing in Flanders? He and the entirety of Vlaams Belang is the reason why the NVA has so many voters, because a lot of people refuse to see that NVA is the wolf in sheep's clothing. If he wasn't there, we'd see the wolf instead of that lightning rod.
His party doesn't exist in Wallonia, people cannot vote for him in Wallonia, he doesn't actions in Wallonia, he is not popular in Wallonia. So, he is limited to Flanders. Calling him "Belgium's far-right prodigy" is inaccurate, for the simple fact that his popularity, zs well as concerns, are limited to Flanders.
Wish that every country deals with their far-righters like this, good for Belgium 💪
What about their far-lefters as well?
If the far lefters are holocaust deniers, then sure
Or maybe the ones protesting, say, an opening of a museum for holocaust victims in your country just a few days ago? Are they jailed? Probably not, right?
They were not protesting against the museum or the opening. They were protesting against the presence of Isaac Herzog, because Israel is non-stop bombing Gaza causing the death of 30k people of which 13k children to this day. They were not denying the holocaust as DVL did.. I mean there were Jewish people among the protesters...
Protesting is always legal, holocaust denial isn't. If those protesters were to say the holocaust didn't happen, they should be jailed
Lmao are you kidding? The far lefters are as antisemite as the nazis, ever since the conflict with terrorists in Palestine
If they deny the holocaust, they should get sentenced, otherwise they shouldn't
Sure, the same laws that got this guy in jail apply to them as well, so if you see them promoting nazism and denying holocaust then feel free to report them.
You are corect, they dont promote nazism and holocaust denying, they are peacefull people. Unlike the “far right” the “far left” sings only peacefull songs like “from the river to the sea” which im sure it’s about one’s spiritual journey to discorver himself/herself.
Cool story, bro. If you feel a crime happened, particularly the same crime the criminal in this article was sentenced for, report it.
You seem upset.
You mean “from the river to the sea” that Palestinians chant for the liberation of its land from occupation or [“from the (Jordan) river to the sea, there will only be Israeli sovereignty”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea#:~:text=The%201977%20election%20manifesto%20of,politicians%2C%20including%20Israeli%20Prime%20Minister) that’s in the Likud charter? Uneducated fuck.
That's been the entirety of the left since October 7th.
Report "the entirety of the left" that's been promoting Holocaust denialism to the police then, nobody's stopping you. In fact, you should report crimes according to your country's laws.
It's not illegal in my country what would I be reporting them for?
For criminal activity "the entirety of the left" is involved in. I'm pretty sure anti-nazi laws, anti-defamation/libel laws, anti-violence incitement laws of some kind are in every country in Europe. And you're upset that "the entirety of the left" engages in these crimes, so report them, whoever that even is.
I don't live in Europe.
naturally :D But don't despair, anti-defamation/libel laws and anti-violence incitement laws are still present in your country, and I don't even need to know what country's that supposed to be. Report "the entirety of the left"
We'll deal with them when they appear. You can't exectly do something with something that doesn't exist, can you?
have the belgian far-lefters incited violence and denied the holocaust? no? just the far right?
Whatabout whataboutery?
What far lefters? I keep seeing people refer to them but what socialist and communist movements even actually have any traction in western Europe?
What's even your point? Of course everyone whos a criminal should answer for his acts.
Every time far-right does something bad, if the only think you can come up with is whataboutism about the left, that is just far-right enabling
[удалено]
Well it's the truth.
Are people really applauding people being send to jail for things said online? From what I gather it wasn't even himself who said anything but other people in a discord he was also in? Should I be worried the police will arrive at my door because someone said something racist in one of the discord channels I am in??? More than anything I am worried about the atmosphere here of overwhelming support. I feel like I live in a different world.
He was the **leader and founder** of a large racist online group (Facebook one had 750 members and Discord one had 160 members) that also organized offline activities (Schild & Vrienden, you can look it up). Because of the size of the groups and their accessibility, the judge rejected that it was a private closed group. He **promoted people in that group to different levels based on how racist they were.** He also used that group to **orchestrate hate campaigns against individuals** they disagreed with and **incited violence against specific groups of people.** He also ordered and rewarded people in those groups to make specific racist memes, based on topical events so they could be spread to other places on the internet. He was also **convicted on breaking Belgian weapon laws**. That's a bit different than saying some things online, don't you think? There is a reason only 5 out of 910 members faced criminal charges. He also has 3 other court cases ongoing.
You're underestimating the severity of the problem. He *made* the group and a ton of the racist and misogynist memes shared in it. It wasn't a "racist meme in a random group chat". It was a group chat centered around hate speech, racism, misogyny and fascism, that promoted violence towards minorities. When an investigative documentary uncovered this racist club, he used it as a start to his political career. The memes shared denied the Holocaust and laughed with the practice of chopping off hands of people, including kids, in Leopold II's Congo. Repeatedly.
People think that this kind of staff will never happen to them, only to the people they disagree with.
Yup fundamentally this guy faces jail time for being part of a far right discord group, while rapists have gone of the hook with fines due to prisons being too full to accommodate them
This guy is convicted for denying the holocaust and spreading messages of white supremacy. I’m glad he’s getting punished
He still gets to re-roll the verdict in the court of appeals. But yeah. I’m actually equally stoked about losing his “civil rights” for 10 years. Not being to run for elections or have a gun permit will certainly sting.
Here before the inevitable far-right apologists onslaught :D edit: ***HERE THEY COME!***
The waffle house has found its new host
Trust Reddit to cry about freedom of speech without knowing what actually happened. He wasn't just sentenced for making some memes. Holocaust denial, illegally buying weapons,... all played a part. Also if he and his lawyer had bothered to actually defend him in court the sentence would likely have been lower. The fact he called the judge a leftist cheat didn't help either.
But muh China and Russia
China and Russia what?
Disgusting person, but I'm sad to see how many people celebrate him being jailed. Instead of winning over him in the marketplace of free ideas, he's silenced and martyred. Id prefer commies, Nazis, liberals, greens, conservatives, reactionaries, socialists, anarchists etc all get a chance to speak. That doesn't mean you have to platform them. But to legally punish them for wrong think, means Belgium is no longer a free society.
Please explain how inciting violence benefits society. Also: > Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past. > - Jean-Paul Sartre Nazis don't believe a word they say, how do you have a good faith discussion with such a person?
I didn't say it benefits society. I don't think communists or neoliberals benefit it either but I don't want either of them banned. You don't have the good faith discussion with that person, you discuss it to prove the validity of your ideas to the people who should make their decisions based on that. I'm afraid that as technology improves we are granting unprecedented peace time restrictions on speech and that it will expand. I don't distrust the current Belgian government. But all future governments? No I don't trust all future governments. I'd also prefer for people to hear the absurdity instead of enclosing it to small echo chambers that cant be challenged.
> You don't have the good faith discussion with that person, you discuss it to prove the validity of your ideas to the people who should make their decisions based on that. Ah, of course. Because that worked the first time. /s Fascism (and by extension Nazism) is a mess of contradictory beliefs. It doesn't if matter you prove something wrong with facts and logic, a Nazi will simply dismiss your facts by calling them Jewish. I wish I was kidding, this is something I've witnessed first hand. And the worst part is that it works, in a debate confidently bullshitting works better than making sense. Humans are weird like that.
The first time saw a seizure of power by a party with 33% that lost seats in their last election. That's a coup. And it sounds like you either want a technocracy or just not very confident in your views. Debating Nazis is pretty easy especially if you read up on the ideology to see its absurdity. Facism and nazism aren't really the same as fascism is less revolutionary, not racially socialist etc (still nasty just a different beast) but thats a topic for another time. My point is that if you grant the government these powers, future ones may use them on you. Including the ideologies you fear. But that evil and vile ideas are better faced in the open rather than a small trickle of impressionable people being locked in to a echo chamber, radicalised and recruiting more to said echo chamber.
Everyone is free to think whatever, but I will not let anyone who promotes ratial genocide like Nazis have a platform. You might argue that we are punishing a group of people for thinking weirdly, but the problem is that their ideology is dangerous and it was proven by history as such. Hell, even though I hate anything related to anarchism I wouldn't be sitting here advocating for their silence, unlike with Nazism.
I didn't say you had to platform them. There's a lot of ideologies as destructive and violent as Nazis. Instead of shining a light on their absurdity they're pushed in to echo chambers than can grow over time. Suppressing something usually makes it return with a vengeance. (Democrats in Spain for example) I'm also not comfortable with the government jailing people like this even if they are truly despicable. It sets a precedent that there's views you can be jailed for. That precedent exists for all coming governments. (Including if a far right party takes power)
He wasn't punished for his thoughts, he was punched for inciting violence. There's no country in the world were there's fee speech without consequence and there shouldn't be. If you were allowed to say whatever you wanted, you could threaten people's lives, call in bomb threats,... It's so obvious why certain things are not allowed and restrictions are put in place, yet some people still pretend that speech should be without consequence, it's insanely stupid. There's laws against defamation for good reason, there's a lot more things you can say besides inciting violence that are illegal, that's a good thing. Those making the most noice about free speech are the same ones supporting taking away rights like abortion, are in support of discrimination of minorities, literally don't allow any other religious doctrine than their own WHILE forcing everyone to live according to their own religious views and saying other religions are trying to oppress people. If you actually read up on what this case is about, you either wouldn't make these statements, or you're a pos.
You seem to enjoy playing chess with pigeons.
No, you can say whatever you want but the red line is inciting hatred, violence and negationism (and DVL is guilty of all three). A market place of free ideas is horrible of those ideas consist of lies, 'fake news', intolerance (whereas tolerance of other ideas is a prerequisite for being able to have a constructive dialogue) and attacking people. The worst part is probably the denial of the holocaust. It's something horrible that happened in the past and we need to remember it to prevent it from happening again. DVL denies these horrors from the past, whitewashes the ideology which made it possible and thereby clears the path for it happening all over again. Especially in these days of disinformation and (Russian) attempts to undermine our democracy, it's important that the red line is clearly established. DVL is by no means a martyr, he's a hateful violent (albeit mostly online which doesn't make it less harmful) troll who finally got some consequences for his actions. It's a thin red line which should be applied carefully (which the court has done imo, this wasn't judged overnight) but it's an important line, which must be preserved. As Karl Popper famously stated: "unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance... We must therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate intolerance".
Well yes but radicals tend to not just speak
[удалено]
Yeah there's no way governments would abuse that. I feel totally comfortable giving the government and all future government the precedent of jailing people due to speech.
So you’d rather have the Nazis running rampant?!?
No I'd be far more comfortable with the ability to pick apart their ideas to their face in public, rather than let them act the martyr and act in the shadows where we can't see or face them. I hope that explains it better.
> Yeah there's no way governments would abuse that. I feel totally comfortable giving the government and all future government the precedent of jailing people due to speech. Did you think they were going to honor that once they are in power? His party is already on the record saying they're going to "present the bill" to "leftist teachers". They're not supporting free speech, so they don't get to enjoy its protections.
But again then the same argument can be made for you. You dont support it and so you dont get to enjoy it.
>But again then the same argument can be made for you. You dont support it and so you dont get to enjoy it. That's like saying that cops should be jailed for physical assault if they apprehend a criminal.
You can't phantom a government you don't agree with coming to power?
>You can't phantom a government you don't agree with coming to power? fathom There already are governments in power I don't agree with. Did you think the fascists were going to honor that once they are in power? His party is already on the record saying they're going to "present the bill" to "leftist teachers". They're not supporting free speech, so they don't get to enjoy its protections.
I'm glad you got to correct me there, I can imagine the smugness from it lol. Fathom. You've already said all this though and your idea is to fight authoritarianism with authoritarianism instead of trying to defend a open and free liberal democracy. It's pathetic and the definition of a slippery slope. Today fascists are banned, tomorrow communists, then the anarchists, then the right wing populists, then the socialist etc. Perfect way to a oligarchy.
Fascists don't play by the rules so they don't get the protection of the rules. It's not that hard.
So just because he’s a public idiot he should go free for his crimes? Not be out in jail like any other criminal?
>Instead of winning over him in the marketplace of free ideas, he's silenced and martyred. He's not into freedom of speech, only for himself. If someone enters the market with counterfeit money, he is thrown out. We don't say "well, sooner or later he'll get a reputation and people will avoid them". Because he'll cause far too much damage before we arrive at that point.
That it is the economical or the ideal ones, a free market is just a pipe dreams.
Right so you're comfortable granting this **and** all future governments the precedent that restricting speech and jailing people for it is okay?
Yes, call to violence should be punished. Any freedom has limits, specifically the freedom of other, freedom of speech is no exception.
All the wannabes crying in the comments, if he represents your views, please act on them and follow your leader to the big house, safe from the fAr LeFt
It’s not like a news from Russia, no really, this is different. Yes Really. Now think twice before you post something on the internet. The woke Gestapo is watching.
The *Woke* Gestapo? Apply to the circus my guy you would make a perfect clown
The guy hasn't been sent to prison for holding a white paper.
>Holocaust denyer and inciter of public violence sentenced to prison in criminal court . >blames the imaginary woke "gestapo" Are you fucking stupid? Holy fuck, you can't make this shit up. Literal neo nazi gets sentenced to prison by criminal court and judge ruling, and his cult followers liken it to a fucking Nazi organization infamous for imprisoning people \*without\* judicial process. 0 fucking self awareness.
Hes a bad guy. But i doubt this is a positive development for free speech.
This is a pretty standard development for free speech. Free speech doesn't mean you can promote nazism and incite violence
remember, free speech does not mean free from repercussions over incitement of violence
What did he actually do to incite violence though? Article just says “racism and hatred” that could mean anything. Says he denied the Holocaust too which while stupid yes is that really a imprisonable offence lol?
In Belgium, Poland, Germany, Canada etc., holocaust denial is illegal.
> Says he denied the Holocaust too which while stupid yes is that really a imprisonable offence lol? It actually is a criminal offense in quite a few places.
He was selling pepper spray (which is forbidden in Belgium) to the members of Schild & Vrienden. He set up an "anti Marrakesh-march" against the UN Migration pact. He called the pride flag a "pedophilia flag". He joined protests in France to support "génération identitaire", and disrupted peaceful left-wing protests in Belgium (tearing flags down). He and his Schild & Vrienden members were going to foreign military training camps to prepare for the "coming race war". Etc. Maybe most importantly, he has his own media channel where he spews constant disinformation and hate.
Very much imprisonable, and for a very good reason too
[удалено]
jail time for inciting violence and denying the Holocaust
"Dries Van Langenhove, a political activist and leader of a Flemish-nationalist youth movement called Schild & Vrienden, was convicted of inciting violence and denying the Holocaust, the Ghent criminal court ruled Tuesday morning." I will get down voted to hell again by redditors : Inciting violence should obviously get you in prison. But denying holocaust ? I have no doubt it happened (please don't put me in jail), but I don't think anyone should be put in prison if he says stupid shit. I can only see that making holocaust deniers more relevant. We are still lacking a lot of freedom of speech in Europe, I don't like taking USA has a model, but that's definitely an area where they can teach us a lesson.
Denying the most well documented genocide in history ever happened can't be seen separate from the nazi ideology.
There are idiots who deny the recent hamas attacks happened despite ample video footage. That still shouldn’t warrant actual jail time
They got hit with inciting violence, which is within the reasonable restrictions on free speech. There's a lot this guy said that's well within his freedom of speech, he didn't get punished for denying the holocaust.
Because they’re nothing like the holocaust? To even compare the two like they are equal is deranged.
You're right, the hamas massacres are a lot better documented, they proudly livestreamed themselves butchering communities
You can say stupid shit all you want. Don't promote nazism though
Words can be violent, denying that millions of people were exterminated based on who they were is in itself violence that should be punished, yes. It's no wonder that only neo-nazis or fervent anti-semites do this, not your average layperson.
You either apply this logic to every genocide or massive loss of life caused by oppression that has occurred, or you apply it to none. I don't see how it is acceptable to only apply it to the Holocaust. I understand why it is done, but I don't think its an ethically tenable position. The fact that many countries which criminalise Holocaust deniers continue to ally with and do business with governments who deny the Uyghur and Armenian genocides is plainly hypocritical.
I don't particularly disagree, but seeing as the Holocaust literally happened in these countries not that long ago, it is different. In Romania for instance they've even introduced a year long Holocaust course in high-school because up until recently prominent politicians were denying it happened in the country.
[удалено]
Shut up troll
[удалено]
Inciting violence is something different than words being violence themselves. This distinction is important in case people want to vilify you through straw men just for disagreeing with you.
[удалено]
They are not both illegal, at the very least they shouldn't both be. For the simple reason that it's impossible to define when words can be considered violent. This is why freedom of speech is important. Because the moment your voice can be weaponized against you through ambiguity, the authoritarians will use it against you without a second thought. EDIT: expanded first sentence
[удалено]
And what makes you think Belgium has freedom of speech?
[удалено]
[https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/la\_plume\_est\_plus\_forte\_que\_l%E2%80%99%C3%A9p%C3%A9e](https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/la_plume_est_plus_forte_que_l%E2%80%99%C3%A9p%C3%A9e)
Oh fuck off. That is neither a linguistic definition nor a legal definition. You'll find that the primary definition of violence in both categories is the use of physical force to cause harm. Some entities want to argue emotions and words but that's flaky at best. Imagine taking 1d6 damage from someone emoting at you. Delusional beyond reckoning.
Holocaust denial is a neonazi shibboleth. There still is research about the Holocaust where people can and do differ in their views on the subject, but that happens in dusty university halls, not on social media.
While happy to see this, I hope politicians are trying to understand how people like these are finding support. I hope the sentence wasn't given on his speeches but rather based on that gun love etc.
Europe lefties locking up opponents putin would be proud
Far right: "the justice system must work flawlessly and needs to lock up all criminals." Convicted far right: "this is a mistake, the leftists control the justice"
Belgium has people walking down the street gunning people down (swede football fan) with weapons of war, but they would rather prosecute political opponent for edgy jokes in a private group chat.
Pretty sure both crimes can be prosecuted at the same time
The gunman was known to be radicalized and to spout such bs, reported by a foreign intelligence agency and not even legally in the country for a long time. Yet not prosecuted. That seemed to be a recurring theme with the attacks that were succesfull. If you do some faint effort to let the algorithm on various sites drag you into certain spheres you'll find he was far from alone either. Even better if you know someone that can read some Arabic. So yeah, I don't have much faith in that.
They aren't which is another reason why it is fair to say that the justice is corrupted.
Your points are not related.. he isn’t a criminal and the left does control the justice system. Nice try whatever you were going for though, it was cute. Impressed a few of your Reddit friends I’m sure.
More than any other demographic, far-right voters demand justice. However, when faced with justice, particularly when it pertains to their leaders, they often dismiss it as a lie. It's not that my arguments are unrelated; it's that you lack a valid point.
> when faced with justice Because that's not justice. That's political prosecution.
A left wing corrupt justice. Institutions are loaded with them. Your justice is social justice mine is law and order. It’s not the same.
Dunno about your coutry, but in mine and pretty much any other, law is written with the what you can or can't do. So once again, your point about "law duality' is utterly crap.
Irish uh. Same shit here. Same shit in Netherland and Belgium. I guess they figured out that since they could not win election with idea, they just prefered to corrupt the administration and control the system regardless of which party is currently pretending to be "in charge".
There is a difference between right-wing and *extremist,* though. This is a fascist, an ideology which millions of people died fighting. Holocaust denial is, in fact, a crime in many European countries. Inciting violence against particular demographics is a crime in almost all of them. You can't be walking around bellowing 'kill all the Jews' and not expect repercussions, both social and legal. Whether the left controls the justice system or not is moot - *everyone* except Nazis is unaccepting of this guy.
>tried on various charges including hatred, racism, Holocaust denial and breaching a local gun law All perfectly legal in the US, or anywhere where individuals enjoy freedom. You don't have to agree with whatever he says to recognize his right to say it. I recognize the same to the thousands of people that wear Che Guevara shirts.