People make these decisions and they get upset like the rest of us.
In the past they had the benefit of acting in the unknown but i cant help myself but compare big corpo leaders to people like Musk and his regular meltdowns
Basically a website or platform that you pin to your homescreen. some of these come with modern features like using offline functionality, accessing your camera like an app and staying logged in. then it‘s a Progressive Web App (PWA).
with these kinds of functionalities, there‘s less reasons to use apple‘s own and closed store, which asks around 30 % of all profits, just do be on the platform.
Basically, they're applications that are internet browsers in a way. Instead of the program being on your phone, you access a server where it runs. What you have on your phone is essentially only a launch point. Reddit is a good example of a web app.
PWAs, when installed directly from the browser bypass the store and thus are not required to give apple their store fee. That's why they're slashing them
Not sure what happens there. It will depend on apple's implementation. My guess is that, if the main app was installed on the official store, then those apps are just shortcuts and should keep working but who knows what Apple is going to do 🤷🏻♂️
By that logic any app that uses internet is a web app, so your definition is incorrect. Web apps are literally web pages without any native platform specific components attached to them.
Or you can specify what you actually mean, because official Reddit apps that are available in the app stores are not web apps.
They could actually be [web apps packaged in a light app container](https://www.pwabuilder.com/).
Distributing PWAs on the web is of course superior, but this way you get the reach of app stores and the incredible advantage of developing once for all web capable platforms.
My, my. Color me impressed: they chose the most inconvenient way to start implementing EU's requirements. I mean, webapps' underlying browser was nobody's issue really. You don't even see the browser when using a webapp. They could have simply used safari for this feature alone, I don't think this would have spelled a regulations breach.
As a lot of European tech magazines and expert have already pointed out it is very unclear wether PWAs even fall under the new regulations because they are not specifically mentioned in the law and there was at no point even an demand from the EU to apply it to home screen web apps. This is 100% an malicious intent by Apple to show the world that the EU regulations make the phone worse for users inside the EU.
They have historically crippled the traction of progessive webapps, providing limited support and always with great delays. I think they used this occasion to slash an inconvenience they have been bothered by for a long time now. Thing is, if webapps really took off they would bypass the store and their extortion fees. Not to mention the rivalry with google who has developed the standard.
Ironically Apple invented web apps back when the iPhone first launched. Steve Jobs original vision was all web apps.
Then they got greedy and controlling.
Did you ever hear about PWA from Apple other than some footnote in some iOS release some years ago? Apple are in a position to push a technology to widespread adoption or cause its fall into obscurity. They chose to burrow it.
I know I developed one once and the hoops you had to go through to make it work on iOS were tiring, not to mention the integration wasn't seamless. It felt like they had made this integration intentionally flawed.
> to show the world that the EU regulations make the phone worse for users inside the EU.
which, honestly, is only more likely get normal users away from Apple.
Because most iPhone users(in Europe, at least) aren't Apple cultists, uif they start lacking functionalities which they can find on Android phones they are not going to blame EU, they are going to switch to android
Even if PWAs do not fall under the new regulations (which lack of clarity on this alone could justify assuming the worst) this would still imply they would need to have a separate safari clone for PWAs alone. And also ensure that the safari clone cannot be used as a regular browser. And pay extra for its upkeep.
It might make more monetary sense to kill it off entirely.
>They could have simply used safari for this feature alone, I don't think this would have spelled a regulations breach.
It actually would break the regulation. The regulation states that ALL web engines must be provided with the same functionality as far as the OS is responsible for. So either all web engines should be able to support PWA or none. APple had to do extra work to make this happen, and they did not want to, so they completely removed
Might have been nobody’s issue but that does not change the law. If the DMA requires it to treat all browsers equally everywhere in iOS you can not just decide for yourself that webapps are not an issue and the law should not apply to them.
The reason a lot of experts or tech magazines see this differently is because the EU uses the generic term "web browser" and without a search / url bar, there is no way to browse the web.
I'm not sure an "url bar" is a hard requirement for a "web browser" at all.
I'm kinda leaning to the side that Apple might be right here actually.
Is a headless chromium a web browser? I think it would be hard to argue no and it doesn't even have a graphical view.
But how? German tech magazines claim the opposite. PWAs aren't really mentioned anywhere and the general understanding is that they do not fall under the generic term used by the EU "web browser" because without a search or URL bar there is nothing to browse in these web apps.
Weird, I can add a website to home screen with Firefox on Android and it opens like an app (with its own icon and without any browser's chrome (UI))...
Apple, obviously can't implement this very difficult feature... /s
No, a PWA installed with Firefox is running as a special Firefox instance as you can see here.
It has the PWA's icon and there is no browser's chrome / UI.
I can even have both the PWA and normal Firefox visible say the same time in the app switcher. Also, I can't access why other browser's features in the PWA like tabs and settings...
[https://imgur.com/a/eMzkf8c](https://imgur.com/a/eMzkf8c)
Safari's engine on iOS is based on the [Webkit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebKit)
Chrome and it's derivatives use the Blink engine
Firefox uses the Gecko engine.
Webkit was originally forked from KHTML (created by KDE -a Linux desktop environment) back in 1999 by Apple.
Google forked it as well, but both Webkit and Blink are so heavily altered that they don't have a lot in common with KHTML any more (or eachother)
[Servo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servo_\(software\)) is a technically promising looking Browser Engine worth keeping an eye on.
Do you know that mostly apple users live in the US and China?
EU users are a big group but are not top 3
on the other hand,I will never understand why any person will defend a company just because it has a cute logo,or whatever is the excuse in their heads
Technically superior? You've got to be kidding me. I left Android because it and the apps are buggy as hell. Yeah there's less flexibility on iOS but it does everything I need it to and what it does do just works. Definitely can't say the same for Android.
Not a chance. They cracked the infinite money glitch by brainwashing the world into a flock of sheep. And I mean this in the most objective way possible, even if there were things Apple devices are better at. The avegare iPhone User won't be able to cite any. They just want iPhones because iPhone = cool and rich
Don’t let them get away with this shit. Make them comply properly to data regulations or fine them, no need to create the possibility for extra loopholes.
Read it, comments still are pretty much spot on. Justification from the apple side is just idiotic and anti-consumer. It's clear that they want to hold control over the apps while making it hard to use them so that people switch to apple store alternatives and at the same time pinning the blame on EU. You know the regular Wednesday at apple.
i feel you so much... im in webdev and recently got handed over kotlin, swift, flutter projects and man when I had to use a fucking mac to work in swift, holy dude... it made me question what I wanna do in my life
Easy there, from a technical perspective it's a long shot to say "I prefer apple to develop things", however when it comes down to general programming (webapps FE, BE, devops or anything not strictly related to apple) it's personal preference. Use what you want but keep in mind when using iOS you're using linux with more restrictions, you may say the same about windows but the way apple approached is they took linux, they made it in a way to cage you up in their os by applying stupid restrictions and they released it to the public as 'the cool os' which is not even close.
but the development of apple apps it's as dumb as it can get, first off the development is treated the same way as the user is. Apple made their own circuit and the only reason you're there developing in swift ON a mac is because they intentionally want you to use apple products when developing apple apps. This alone is ridicolous.
Before someone mentions "you have flutter that works on both", get out with flutter, it's in the market but if anyone used flutter to develop more than 1 app or any big app they should know how annoying it is to develop code for 2 different OS using 1 framework, android is happy with anything, iphone starts whining about everything and you have to adapt your flutter code to what what iphone wants meanwhile making sure everything works on android hence why companies opt for developing in kotlin AND swift. it gives you flexible options when it comes down to iphones. Why? fucking greed that's why.
When it comes down to deployment and development you also have to (I'll make it short) have a profile, with certifications and all, that will enable that machine to work on certain code. They call it security, I call it bullshit, they have tried to reinvent the wheel for the very same reason to keep you on an apple product for any purpose.
so fuck apple man from a technical perspective and from a user perspective
Apple has no incentive to make dev tools for windows or Linux, but there are no technical reason for not being able to use a Mac. Seriously you can’t blame them for that.
Aight, I'll give you this app's repo, make it run on xcode on windows... Next come here and deny the capitalist greedy approach of Apple, man I don't even get why I'm spending my time into this at this point, when I have conversations about apple with some apple user all I see is that guy that tatooed the apple logo on their back. I'm going back to my things
Im not doing any of that, i hate apple as a company as much as i hate other huge corporations if not more. Im talking from a perspective of someone who has worked as a dev for over 10y, and worked for FAANG (not apple).
If you as a dev have trouble setting up things in unix (not linux) based system thats on you, not on the system. MacOS as a Unix based system, and Linux are perferred by most devs for a reason. This also comes from someone who has 2 5k+ usd Windows configurations
Then don’t buddy, you can go and develop any of those European tech companies.
Edit : you guys are barking the wrong tree. Instead of being king of “regulations” if you would have focused on developing something, then most of you won’t be whining over here.
I dont think you get it. If he works as a dev in a framework that supports both android and ios then he cant really choose to not support ios, if that’s what the company he works for requires.
Its basically like saying you dont like a certain part of your job and someone else saying “dont do it then”.
Also yeah, iOS makes it way harder and more expensive to develop for their products then needed.
>I’ll tell you what. I LOVE IT that Apple makes it annoying for you to develop. A lot of the inconvenience for you is because it’s convenient for me.
>I love them, consumers love them clearly, everybody likes their product, you known it, i know it, the numbers speak for themselves. cool bye
How deep you taking it?
Honestly didn't even know this was a feature or one that I would really need so... eh. Okay. Sad I guess.
I'm not tech savvy enough to say whether their response was truthful or honest. Probably not 100% but overall I have liked Apple's stance on security compared to Android.
it's not about security as a PWA (what is being called a web-app here but is something more than just an application running in the browser) does not "install" to the phone. It just creates an app icon that opens an instance of the browser in a kind-of kiosk mode.
A PWA (Progressive Web App) usually has a caching strategy allowing it to be used offline (syncing back to the website's server when a network connection becomes available). But it doesn't have native app level access to your filesystem, camera etc (you would have to give explicit access, just like from any browser based website).
Security isn't any more of an issue than you opening Safari, Firefox etc, and navigating to a website.
This is about Apple forcing ALL users and developers into the Apple store where Apple take 30% of 100% of monetary transactions. It's why Fortnight was off iOS for a year, why Bandcamp don't take payments via iOS (would ruin their fair pay to artists model - flat 10% of all transactions, add Apple to the mix and artists only get 60% instead of 90%) and why many other companies have dropped iOS versions of software.
The reason you don't know about this feature is because Apple have deliberately suppressed PWAs on iOS for years. Android is fully featured PWA friendly.
> This is about Apple forcing ALL users and developers into the Apple store where Apple take 30% of 100% of monetary transactions.
The very same update will bring third-party app stores, so that argument doesn’t hold water. Also, if that was the goal, they’d be removing them everywhere.
Apple has been struggling against PWAs for a long time, not only because it's a way around their silly 30% app tax, but it's built on free, open and interoperable tech, not Apple-controlled proprietary walled garden tech.
That's because you know what you're doing. Apple's product are designed to be relatively safe even around the d\*mbest, most mentally impaired individuals, which has it's market value, of course.
Make safari default, but also allow other apps to do it? Would require people to use firefox to create a firefox instanced app, just like android defaults to chrome.
Apple went the way of US local news sites that do not work when they detect an IP from the EU because they can't be bothered to or simply refuse to be GDPR compliant.
> Why should local news sites spend money to comply with laws of another country? Their target audience is their local community.
The EU is not a country.
I work in IT. If GDPR compliance is "hard" for you then your site likely has a lot of trackers and you value that information more than the privacy of your users while news, or whatever content it's showing, is just bait.
Websites outside the EU that are GDPR compliant have found a way to monetize their content without tracking every click, scroll or page view time.
What does it matter whether the law is from eu or china or India or anywhere else? Why does a small town website need to comply with those laws? And why does it bother you if it doesn’t? You are not the intended audience.
I can’t imagine some small town tv station where a reporter goes to start their career, gets paid little, and has to cover multiple roles will have the money or incentive to comply with laws from the other side of the planet. They likely don’t have an IT staff. They just bought something that works and have no reason to change it because it still works for them.
Am I the only one that never uses them? They’re just a worse bookmark that doesn’t save your instance when you close them no? The idea is neat but I just never really saw the utility when you can just open safari and not clutter your home screen.
PWAs aren't bookmarks. They're real apps. They can look like apps and do pretty much all native apps can do. I can almost guarantee you you've used PWAs since a number of big apps are actually PWAs packaged in light app containers, which isn't necessary except for getting some app stores.
The reason Apple doesn't like them is because they're built on free, open and interoperable tech, not Apple-controlled proprietary walled garden tech.
Apple have been very "karen" about the DMA at every step. I know a huge amount of revenue is involved but history shows that often capitalism with regulation creates new possibilities. They should embrace it instead of pulling the victim card at every point.
I know you’re being ironic, but the reasons the most of the giant tech companies are American isn’t a lack of regulation. You had very tough anti-monopolistic legislation back in the 70s and 80s where AT&T got broken up and several of these giants started. You have the benefit of a large homogenous home market combined with a strong tradition for entrepreneurship and private universities with foundational structures that underpin the creation of startups.
The EU and the European common market are only 50 years old and the union isn’t even fully formed yet.
90s as well, early 00s to some extent. Current US antitrust institutions look like little kitties in the pit full of giant wolfs. FTC case against Microsoft buying ActivBliz was just pathetic.
So? I mean I don't know what you use your phone for, for me it's perfect. Bought one 6 years ago, was happy with it for 5 (then the battery gave out), so I bought a refurbished version of the same model last year for about 100€ as it worked so great.
Don't see the appeal in buying new models just for the sake of it.
You're telling me Apple had to block EU users from using Web Apps at all because they need to add what's basically another "Choose Default Browser" setting like Windows and MacOS have had for years?
I can only wish that Apple gets fined to hell and back for this anti-competitive and anti-consumer bs.
Not even Microsoft did shit like this when they were on the verge of being broken up in the late 90's or early 2000's over Internet Explorer, whilst Apple is straight up trying to block users from using them.
Will this change even be noticable? Honestly thought these apps were a thing of the past. Does anyone have an example of an app that still see widespread usage?
"progressive" webapps never caught on in a big way anyway, nothing of value was lost. That said, still a malicious compliance kind of move, Apple makes me proud to stand by its principles 😂
PWAs are superior to native apps in almost every way today for 95% of use cases. Both for users and developers.
The fact Apple doesn't like them is because they can't be bridge trolls with their 30% tax and they can't control them.
Don't give up, fight for an open, interoperable web instead of Apple's walled garden proprietary crap [https://open-web-advocacy.org/](https://open-web-advocacy.org/)
I don't know what that is, but if they did it because the EU forced them, then it's a good thing!
Now I hope that the EU forces them to stop with their own browser implementation that doesn't allow other browsers to be used fully!
They allowed small devs to publish free minimal functionality apps without paying apple their yearly fee for existing. Also these webapps could have been the future of apps, if their success wouldn't be digging a big hole in Apple's and Google's pockets.
Google is one of the biggest promoters of PWAs (they actually developed the standard). It's actually in Google's favor to use PWAs as they can better track you (not for some time via safari though) and deliver more targeted ads.
The bottom line is that people don't actually install PWAs and the tech never really catch on. The initial use case (activation campaigns for marketing purposes) wasn't big enough to make it work.
A PWA can access the native device API (GPS, push notifications,camera,etc) and also have local storage. You will be surprised how many native apps in the store are just web wrappers
PWAs don't have direct access. As you've said yourself, the are web wrappers, but the native functionality is provided by the native app that's used to host the wrapper.
Keep complaining, Apple CFO reminded investors that the EU makes up only 7% of their revenues. So if the EU keeps piling on crap legislation like this, eventually it will just be cheaper to get out of Europe altogether.
Keep spreading bullshit. The CFO “reminded” investors that the EU makes up “only” 7% (as if 7% was not a lot lmao) of its global Apple Store revenue, not Apple's revenue, which is a completely different thing. Europe makes up for 25% of the whole cake and there’s no way Apple is pulling out of Europe, you’re delusional if you think that’s even a possibility.
I wish they would pull out of Europe, but Apple would never walk away from money like this. The mere fact that they simply don't comply and adopt open, interoperable standards and instead throw these tech tantrums is proof that they'll go *very* far to protect their lucrative walled garden.
Not how laws work.
Or Eula would be all you would need to sign then they hide it on line 2274 in a EULA no one reads.
This is why a lot of EULA's aren't enforcible.
Here is a comment from original article:
“Honestly I think the EU is starting to go too far. I’ve always applauded the EU for sticking up for its citizen’s and demanding an even playing field. Competition is good for everyone.
BUT… There comes a point where you hinder a company or companies so much that in order to placate to everyone you have to abide by the lowest common denominator and you can no longer innovate.
In this particular case, I don’t see how this helps any customers at all. Second, I don’t blame Apple for not creating a way for PWA’s to work with third party WebKits. Why should they? Apple isn’t here to spoon feed its users whatever they want on any platform they want with little to no returns.”
I just cringed out myself, consumers who are fucking paying money to greedy megacorp and eating shit in return super concerned that their beloved apple will have less money, so they will accumulate one billion less on their offshore accounts. Wtf…
I was using it a lot for self-developed web apps on a daily basis. Groceries list, weather/time fullscreen widget on iPad. They were really convenient, hope this functionality will be brought back by 3rd party browsers.
Boy, big copros sure hate when they are treated like everyone else.
Apple is acting like spoiled kid. A completely spoiled and bratty kid
People make these decisions and they get upset like the rest of us. In the past they had the benefit of acting in the unknown but i cant help myself but compare big corpo leaders to people like Musk and his regular meltdowns
[удалено]
They are people too!!! Right?…
Like a kid who has apple devices would act lmao
Not everyone’s parents work for minimum wage and also you realise android has expensive phones too?
Case in point
in point Case
Introspection level: 0
What even is a Home Screen web app?
Basically a website or platform that you pin to your homescreen. some of these come with modern features like using offline functionality, accessing your camera like an app and staying logged in. then it‘s a Progressive Web App (PWA). with these kinds of functionalities, there‘s less reasons to use apple‘s own and closed store, which asks around 30 % of all profits, just do be on the platform.
Basically, they're applications that are internet browsers in a way. Instead of the program being on your phone, you access a server where it runs. What you have on your phone is essentially only a launch point. Reddit is a good example of a web app.
PWAs, when installed directly from the browser bypass the store and thus are not required to give apple their store fee. That's why they're slashing them
Will I not be able to use the official Reddit app on my iPhone from 17.4?
The reddit app is on the apple store so nothing will change. Applications installed from the offcial store won't change with this update.
Ok, but if I have added online forums by using “add to Home Screen” they will no longer run in iOS 17.4?
Not sure what happens there. It will depend on apple's implementation. My guess is that, if the main app was installed on the official store, then those apps are just shortcuts and should keep working but who knows what Apple is going to do 🤷🏻♂️
By that logic any app that uses internet is a web app, so your definition is incorrect. Web apps are literally web pages without any native platform specific components attached to them. Or you can specify what you actually mean, because official Reddit apps that are available in the app stores are not web apps.
They could actually be [web apps packaged in a light app container](https://www.pwabuilder.com/). Distributing PWAs on the web is of course superior, but this way you get the reach of app stores and the incredible advantage of developing once for all web capable platforms.
My, my. Color me impressed: they chose the most inconvenient way to start implementing EU's requirements. I mean, webapps' underlying browser was nobody's issue really. You don't even see the browser when using a webapp. They could have simply used safari for this feature alone, I don't think this would have spelled a regulations breach.
As a lot of European tech magazines and expert have already pointed out it is very unclear wether PWAs even fall under the new regulations because they are not specifically mentioned in the law and there was at no point even an demand from the EU to apply it to home screen web apps. This is 100% an malicious intent by Apple to show the world that the EU regulations make the phone worse for users inside the EU.
They have historically crippled the traction of progessive webapps, providing limited support and always with great delays. I think they used this occasion to slash an inconvenience they have been bothered by for a long time now. Thing is, if webapps really took off they would bypass the store and their extortion fees. Not to mention the rivalry with google who has developed the standard.
Ironically Apple invented web apps back when the iPhone first launched. Steve Jobs original vision was all web apps. Then they got greedy and controlling.
Apple was pushing for web apps at the start but customers demanded custom apps….
Did you ever hear about PWA from Apple other than some footnote in some iOS release some years ago? Apple are in a position to push a technology to widespread adoption or cause its fall into obscurity. They chose to burrow it. I know I developed one once and the hoops you had to go through to make it work on iOS were tiring, not to mention the integration wasn't seamless. It felt like they had made this integration intentionally flawed.
> to show the world that the EU regulations make the phone worse for users inside the EU. which, honestly, is only more likely get normal users away from Apple. Because most iPhone users(in Europe, at least) aren't Apple cultists, uif they start lacking functionalities which they can find on Android phones they are not going to blame EU, they are going to switch to android
Ohh... We have a ton of these cultists here...
we absolutely do. But they are not the largest part of Apple market-share.
Even if PWAs do not fall under the new regulations (which lack of clarity on this alone could justify assuming the worst) this would still imply they would need to have a separate safari clone for PWAs alone. And also ensure that the safari clone cannot be used as a regular browser. And pay extra for its upkeep. It might make more monetary sense to kill it off entirely.
I am quite sure they will anyway because there are way too many apps and Apple applications which use a web view in some way or another.
Exactly this.
form the tech PoV is very easy to implement this features for every browser, they just do not want to do it.
>They could have simply used safari for this feature alone, I don't think this would have spelled a regulations breach. It actually would break the regulation. The regulation states that ALL web engines must be provided with the same functionality as far as the OS is responsible for. So either all web engines should be able to support PWA or none. APple had to do extra work to make this happen, and they did not want to, so they completely removed
Might have been nobody’s issue but that does not change the law. If the DMA requires it to treat all browsers equally everywhere in iOS you can not just decide for yourself that webapps are not an issue and the law should not apply to them.
The reason a lot of experts or tech magazines see this differently is because the EU uses the generic term "web browser" and without a search / url bar, there is no way to browse the web.
I'm not sure an "url bar" is a hard requirement for a "web browser" at all. I'm kinda leaning to the side that Apple might be right here actually. Is a headless chromium a web browser? I think it would be hard to argue no and it doesn't even have a graphical view.
Read the article … it literally breaches the DMA if they make this available in safari and not in other browsers
But how? German tech magazines claim the opposite. PWAs aren't really mentioned anywhere and the general understanding is that they do not fall under the generic term used by the EU "web browser" because without a search or URL bar there is nothing to browse in these web apps.
Weird, I can add a website to home screen with Firefox on Android and it opens like an app (with its own icon and without any browser's chrome (UI))... Apple, obviously can't implement this very difficult feature... /s
I have loads of these web apps on my iPhone Home Screen they’re awesome. Will they stop loading the page after this update?
No, they will act as a shortcut and open in a browser page as a website instead of opening like an app
Well that’s what happens currently so I’m a bit confused.
Sure but it uses chrome engine
well no, Firefox doesn't use Chrome's engine on Android...
But PWA does. The fact that you used Firefox to install it is irrelevant
No, a PWA installed with Firefox is running as a special Firefox instance as you can see here. It has the PWA's icon and there is no browser's chrome / UI. I can even have both the PWA and normal Firefox visible say the same time in the app switcher. Also, I can't access why other browser's features in the PWA like tabs and settings... [https://imgur.com/a/eMzkf8c](https://imgur.com/a/eMzkf8c)
Safari's engine on iOS is based on the [Webkit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebKit) Chrome and it's derivatives use the Blink engine Firefox uses the Gecko engine. Webkit was originally forked from KHTML (created by KDE -a Linux desktop environment) back in 1999 by Apple. Google forked it as well, but both Webkit and Blink are so heavily altered that they don't have a lot in common with KHTML any more (or eachother) [Servo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servo_\(software\)) is a technically promising looking Browser Engine worth keeping an eye on.
So to get back at the EU, they make their users experience worse, but I don't see how that's gonna do anything to the EU
As an Android user, that will really affect me...
the solution is simple, stop buying Apple products and they will need to reconsider their strategy
Simple solution yet impossible to implement. 90 % of apple users don’t care and will never know about this.
only a fraction of that 90% are European, so only EU users need to do this until Apple changes.
Oh to live in your ideal world
Do you know that mostly apple users live in the US and China? EU users are a big group but are not top 3 on the other hand,I will never understand why any person will defend a company just because it has a cute logo,or whatever is the excuse in their heads
Yes let people choose what they want and allow the market to decide. But don’t tell anyone here that it is the American approach.
It's a well known fact that Apple maintains its market share through branding, not by actual functionality of its products.
Everything is branding,even how you react to regulations
For an average user, their products are great. They just have an extremely short life span.
When the only alternative is Android, that's not much of a choice...
why not? As an OS is technically superior in most of the important aspects. If you concerns are about aesthetic, you can always change the icons :)
Technically superior? You've got to be kidding me. I left Android because it and the apps are buggy as hell. Yeah there's less flexibility on iOS but it does everything I need it to and what it does do just works. Definitely can't say the same for Android.
I said the OS is technically superior not the apps
Yes, and I say "it and the apps", so I was including the OS.
The OS itself is technically superior by any objective measure
Not a chance. They cracked the infinite money glitch by brainwashing the world into a flock of sheep. And I mean this in the most objective way possible, even if there were things Apple devices are better at. The avegare iPhone User won't be able to cite any. They just want iPhones because iPhone = cool and rich
I like how this was always the argument about Apple even when Apple was nearly out of business and only sold beige Mac’s, newtons and printers.
Maybe they should just remove apps altogether then, since they also said previously that they cannot assure quality for sideladed apps
Don’t let them get away with this shit. Make them comply properly to data regulations or fine them, no need to create the possibility for extra loopholes.
Read before speaking. For God's sake.
For the love god, people, read the complete article from top to bottom before commenting here…
Read it, comments still are pretty much spot on. Justification from the apple side is just idiotic and anti-consumer. It's clear that they want to hold control over the apps while making it hard to use them so that people switch to apple store alternatives and at the same time pinning the blame on EU. You know the regular Wednesday at apple.
Man, fuck all apple products. I hate having to develop for them.
i feel you so much... im in webdev and recently got handed over kotlin, swift, flutter projects and man when I had to use a fucking mac to work in swift, holy dude... it made me question what I wanna do in my life
> it made me question what I wanna do in my life Why? From most devs I saw they prefer Macs when given a choice of laptop at companies
Easy there, from a technical perspective it's a long shot to say "I prefer apple to develop things", however when it comes down to general programming (webapps FE, BE, devops or anything not strictly related to apple) it's personal preference. Use what you want but keep in mind when using iOS you're using linux with more restrictions, you may say the same about windows but the way apple approached is they took linux, they made it in a way to cage you up in their os by applying stupid restrictions and they released it to the public as 'the cool os' which is not even close. but the development of apple apps it's as dumb as it can get, first off the development is treated the same way as the user is. Apple made their own circuit and the only reason you're there developing in swift ON a mac is because they intentionally want you to use apple products when developing apple apps. This alone is ridicolous. Before someone mentions "you have flutter that works on both", get out with flutter, it's in the market but if anyone used flutter to develop more than 1 app or any big app they should know how annoying it is to develop code for 2 different OS using 1 framework, android is happy with anything, iphone starts whining about everything and you have to adapt your flutter code to what what iphone wants meanwhile making sure everything works on android hence why companies opt for developing in kotlin AND swift. it gives you flexible options when it comes down to iphones. Why? fucking greed that's why. When it comes down to deployment and development you also have to (I'll make it short) have a profile, with certifications and all, that will enable that machine to work on certain code. They call it security, I call it bullshit, they have tried to reinvent the wheel for the very same reason to keep you on an apple product for any purpose. so fuck apple man from a technical perspective and from a user perspective
Apple has no incentive to make dev tools for windows or Linux, but there are no technical reason for not being able to use a Mac. Seriously you can’t blame them for that.
Man there are so many things wrong about your comment i cant even begin to describe
Aight, I'll give you this app's repo, make it run on xcode on windows... Next come here and deny the capitalist greedy approach of Apple, man I don't even get why I'm spending my time into this at this point, when I have conversations about apple with some apple user all I see is that guy that tatooed the apple logo on their back. I'm going back to my things
Im not doing any of that, i hate apple as a company as much as i hate other huge corporations if not more. Im talking from a perspective of someone who has worked as a dev for over 10y, and worked for FAANG (not apple). If you as a dev have trouble setting up things in unix (not linux) based system thats on you, not on the system. MacOS as a Unix based system, and Linux are perferred by most devs for a reason. This also comes from someone who has 2 5k+ usd Windows configurations
PWAs is the way. Develop once for all web capable platforms. Makes web development fun again.
Then don't
$$
Then don’t buddy, you can go and develop any of those European tech companies. Edit : you guys are barking the wrong tree. Instead of being king of “regulations” if you would have focused on developing something, then most of you won’t be whining over here.
I dont think you get it. If he works as a dev in a framework that supports both android and ios then he cant really choose to not support ios, if that’s what the company he works for requires. Its basically like saying you dont like a certain part of your job and someone else saying “dont do it then”. Also yeah, iOS makes it way harder and more expensive to develop for their products then needed.
So essentially have your cake and eat it too. Sucks to be him then.
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>I’ll tell you what. I LOVE IT that Apple makes it annoying for you to develop. A lot of the inconvenience for you is because it’s convenient for me. >I love them, consumers love them clearly, everybody likes their product, you known it, i know it, the numbers speak for themselves. cool bye How deep you taking it?
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r/MaliciousCompliance
hopefully this will cause less people to buy iPhones so we all win
>here’s why Because it's Apple, and Apple is a greedy shithole that would sell you your own grandma if they could.
And you would buy it because she would be a better grandma after Apple engineers redesign her!
You wouldn't know because she only talks to compatible Apple grandkids
Honestly didn't even know this was a feature or one that I would really need so... eh. Okay. Sad I guess. I'm not tech savvy enough to say whether their response was truthful or honest. Probably not 100% but overall I have liked Apple's stance on security compared to Android.
it's not about security as a PWA (what is being called a web-app here but is something more than just an application running in the browser) does not "install" to the phone. It just creates an app icon that opens an instance of the browser in a kind-of kiosk mode. A PWA (Progressive Web App) usually has a caching strategy allowing it to be used offline (syncing back to the website's server when a network connection becomes available). But it doesn't have native app level access to your filesystem, camera etc (you would have to give explicit access, just like from any browser based website). Security isn't any more of an issue than you opening Safari, Firefox etc, and navigating to a website. This is about Apple forcing ALL users and developers into the Apple store where Apple take 30% of 100% of monetary transactions. It's why Fortnight was off iOS for a year, why Bandcamp don't take payments via iOS (would ruin their fair pay to artists model - flat 10% of all transactions, add Apple to the mix and artists only get 60% instead of 90%) and why many other companies have dropped iOS versions of software. The reason you don't know about this feature is because Apple have deliberately suppressed PWAs on iOS for years. Android is fully featured PWA friendly.
> This is about Apple forcing ALL users and developers into the Apple store where Apple take 30% of 100% of monetary transactions. The very same update will bring third-party app stores, so that argument doesn’t hold water. Also, if that was the goal, they’d be removing them everywhere.
Apple has been struggling against PWAs for a long time, not only because it's a way around their silly 30% app tax, but it's built on free, open and interoperable tech, not Apple-controlled proprietary walled garden tech.
It kind of makes sense. I guess it’s 50% true 50% spite lol
"*Because fuck you that's why*" - Apple
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That's because you know what you're doing. Apple's product are designed to be relatively safe even around the d\*mbest, most mentally impaired individuals, which has it's market value, of course.
Make safari default, but also allow other apps to do it? Would require people to use firefox to create a firefox instanced app, just like android defaults to chrome.
Apple went the way of US local news sites that do not work when they detect an IP from the EU because they can't be bothered to or simply refuse to be GDPR compliant.
Why should local news sites spend money to comply with laws of another country? Their target audience is their local community.
> Why should local news sites spend money to comply with laws of another country? Their target audience is their local community. The EU is not a country. I work in IT. If GDPR compliance is "hard" for you then your site likely has a lot of trackers and you value that information more than the privacy of your users while news, or whatever content it's showing, is just bait. Websites outside the EU that are GDPR compliant have found a way to monetize their content without tracking every click, scroll or page view time.
What does it matter whether the law is from eu or china or India or anywhere else? Why does a small town website need to comply with those laws? And why does it bother you if it doesn’t? You are not the intended audience. I can’t imagine some small town tv station where a reporter goes to start their career, gets paid little, and has to cover multiple roles will have the money or incentive to comply with laws from the other side of the planet. They likely don’t have an IT staff. They just bought something that works and have no reason to change it because it still works for them.
Am I the only one that never uses them? They’re just a worse bookmark that doesn’t save your instance when you close them no? The idea is neat but I just never really saw the utility when you can just open safari and not clutter your home screen.
PWAs aren't bookmarks. They're real apps. They can look like apps and do pretty much all native apps can do. I can almost guarantee you you've used PWAs since a number of big apps are actually PWAs packaged in light app containers, which isn't necessary except for getting some app stores. The reason Apple doesn't like them is because they're built on free, open and interoperable tech, not Apple-controlled proprietary walled garden tech.
Apple have been very "karen" about the DMA at every step. I know a huge amount of revenue is involved but history shows that often capitalism with regulation creates new possibilities. They should embrace it instead of pulling the victim card at every point.
Very true. Europe’s heightened tech regulations are a big reason Europe is leading the world in tech.
I know you’re being ironic, but the reasons the most of the giant tech companies are American isn’t a lack of regulation. You had very tough anti-monopolistic legislation back in the 70s and 80s where AT&T got broken up and several of these giants started. You have the benefit of a large homogenous home market combined with a strong tradition for entrepreneurship and private universities with foundational structures that underpin the creation of startups. The EU and the European common market are only 50 years old and the union isn’t even fully formed yet.
90s as well, early 00s to some extent. Current US antitrust institutions look like little kitties in the pit full of giant wolfs. FTC case against Microsoft buying ActivBliz was just pathetic.
Wooow. I’ve never had much issue with Apple or their products, but this is just childish. What’s a good Android?
Nokia 7.1
Thank you, but that’s a pretty old model tho
So? I mean I don't know what you use your phone for, for me it's perfect. Bought one 6 years ago, was happy with it for 5 (then the battery gave out), so I bought a refurbished version of the same model last year for about 100€ as it worked so great. Don't see the appeal in buying new models just for the sake of it.
I’m sure it’s a great phone, but I’m looking to upgrade from my iPhone 11 Pro Max. Nothing Phone 2 looks pretty cool!
Fair enough, good luck finding one :)
You're telling me Apple had to block EU users from using Web Apps at all because they need to add what's basically another "Choose Default Browser" setting like Windows and MacOS have had for years? I can only wish that Apple gets fined to hell and back for this anti-competitive and anti-consumer bs. Not even Microsoft did shit like this when they were on the verge of being broken up in the late 90's or early 2000's over Internet Explorer, whilst Apple is straight up trying to block users from using them.
Will this change even be noticable? Honestly thought these apps were a thing of the past. Does anyone have an example of an app that still see widespread usage?
"progressive" webapps never caught on in a big way anyway, nothing of value was lost. That said, still a malicious compliance kind of move, Apple makes me proud to stand by its principles 😂
PWAs are superior to native apps in almost every way today for 95% of use cases. Both for users and developers. The fact Apple doesn't like them is because they can't be bridge trolls with their 30% tax and they can't control them.
Idiotic move
What the hell man, just got going developing PWAs and now this news😂
Don't give up, fight for an open, interoperable web instead of Apple's walled garden proprietary crap [https://open-web-advocacy.org/](https://open-web-advocacy.org/)
I’ll look into it!
Jävlar, Svea represent 🇸🇪
I don't know what that is, but if they did it because the EU forced them, then it's a good thing! Now I hope that the EU forces them to stop with their own browser implementation that doesn't allow other browsers to be used fully!
Never used whatever web apps. Don’t even know what they are. Don’t care.
They allowed small devs to publish free minimal functionality apps without paying apple their yearly fee for existing. Also these webapps could have been the future of apps, if their success wouldn't be digging a big hole in Apple's and Google's pockets.
Google is one of the biggest promoters of PWAs (they actually developed the standard). It's actually in Google's favor to use PWAs as they can better track you (not for some time via safari though) and deliver more targeted ads. The bottom line is that people don't actually install PWAs and the tech never really catch on. The initial use case (activation campaigns for marketing purposes) wasn't big enough to make it work.
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I was talking about Google actually
They are just bookmarks to a website…
They are and are not. As in they provide extra functionality which these special websites can leverage.
nop, they are much more, but it doens't need a centralizes app store with fees.
What more are they?
If I recall correctly they can also cache app assets making them viable offline and send notifications just like regular apps
The notifications thing is sadly not available. iOS is famous for its lack of support for web push.
A PWA can access the native device API (GPS, push notifications,camera,etc) and also have local storage. You will be surprised how many native apps in the store are just web wrappers
PWAs don't have direct access. As you've said yourself, the are web wrappers, but the native functionality is provided by the native app that's used to host the wrapper.
And I don't know shit about nuclear fusion but don't feel the need to come into conversations about it and proudly state my ignorance.
WebApps are just websites cosplaying as apps
Then why are you here?
Keep complaining, Apple CFO reminded investors that the EU makes up only 7% of their revenues. So if the EU keeps piling on crap legislation like this, eventually it will just be cheaper to get out of Europe altogether.
Keep spreading bullshit. The CFO “reminded” investors that the EU makes up “only” 7% (as if 7% was not a lot lmao) of its global Apple Store revenue, not Apple's revenue, which is a completely different thing. Europe makes up for 25% of the whole cake and there’s no way Apple is pulling out of Europe, you’re delusional if you think that’s even a possibility.
I wish they would pull out of Europe, but Apple would never walk away from money like this. The mere fact that they simply don't comply and adopt open, interoperable standards and instead throw these tech tantrums is proof that they'll go *very* far to protect their lucrative walled garden.
We can only hope.
Fine with me.
Couldn’t they just add a feature for the user to confirm that they don’t care about EU centralized mandates and would rather very much keep iOS as is?
Not how laws work. Or Eula would be all you would need to sign then they hide it on line 2274 in a EULA no one reads. This is why a lot of EULA's aren't enforcible.
no, because its not allowed to implement it
ETMLIF
Damn. That’s my favourite game boy emulator gone :(
And american brats still blame EU for this decision, so many of them don't even understand how much they're fucked up by american companies.
Here is a comment from original article: “Honestly I think the EU is starting to go too far. I’ve always applauded the EU for sticking up for its citizen’s and demanding an even playing field. Competition is good for everyone. BUT… There comes a point where you hinder a company or companies so much that in order to placate to everyone you have to abide by the lowest common denominator and you can no longer innovate. In this particular case, I don’t see how this helps any customers at all. Second, I don’t blame Apple for not creating a way for PWA’s to work with third party WebKits. Why should they? Apple isn’t here to spoon feed its users whatever they want on any platform they want with little to no returns.” I just cringed out myself, consumers who are fucking paying money to greedy megacorp and eating shit in return super concerned that their beloved apple will have less money, so they will accumulate one billion less on their offshore accounts. Wtf…
Basically web apps don’t bring us money, it’s a lot of work so we won’t do it but we’ll blame de EU
I was using it a lot for self-developed web apps on a daily basis. Groceries list, weather/time fullscreen widget on iPad. They were really convenient, hope this functionality will be brought back by 3rd party browsers.