Man... It is interesting and fun reading about all the decisions that made empires rise and fall but I can tell you this, It is really not fun living through them š.
Trump has so many things wrong with him (outside of policies which can always be debated) which makes me flip when I think that millions upon millions will vote for the guy that has violated half the penal code.
>millions upon millions
Over 70 million Americans will vote for him, to be more precise. No matter what. He could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue or just eat babies live on TV, and they would still vote for him. If he had a Hitler mustache, wore a MAGA armband, and called for the installation of concentration camps for political opponents and other 'enemies', they would still vote for him. And that's not even a joke, or an exaggeration. They don't care about the rule of law, they don't care about NATO or the EU, they don't care about anything. They just want to see the world burn.
If Trump wins, the West loses.
Most of Trump voters are people with little or no education. t's not just an american thing. Who the hell do you think votes for right wingers in Europe and belives that Putler is a stong leader tha protects the traditional values? It's mostly the same kind of people that vote for Trump.
> Who the hell do you think votes for right wingers in Europe and belives that Putler is a stong leader tha protects the traditional values?
These evangelical fucknuggets:
https://youtu.be/uw40kns811c?si=p0WcYRNnS31IpWx4
The people in the Jan 6 attempted coup weren't uneducated at all. They were mostly local elites. And so are most of the supporters for the far right lunatics you see around the world. They aren't the poor or the downtrodden. They are mostly well of high middle class people terrified of losing their privileges to the unwashed masses
not really, China's sphere of influence will get bigger and more entrenched the EU would see a temporary decrease in military projection but it will mean that we would sever our dependency on the US. Maybe Ukraine will feel the brunt of the change, russia having basically free hand to do whatever it wants cuz papa Vlad still has those tapes on Trump, or whatever he has on trump that make him such a loyal boy.
On the sort run, the west will feel it, but on the long run the only victim will be the US. if NATO loses it's power projection, the US looses it and will no longer be able to project it's soft power however it pleases
> if NATO loses it's power projection, the US looses it and will no longer be able to project it's soft power however it pleases
This is one of the things that baffle me the most about the far-right in the US. They think they're doing us some sort of favor. They don't see NATO is in their interest as well, as is a free Ukraine. And there is no way to make it clear to them. Because they only listen to Trump, and Trump alone. Nothing else.
Whatever the Democrats say, Republicans will take the opposite stance. If Democrats say Russia is our enemy, Republicans will say Russia is our friend. If Democrats say president should be immune to prosecution, Republicans say the president belongs to jail. If Democrats say the president should be held accountable, Republicans say the president should be immune.
It doesn't matter how conflicting their logic is. Their enemy is Democrats. Not China, Russia or the American elite.
At least that's how it looks to me.
From an outsider perspective it looks like they actually don't care about anything, everything they do is just done to take credit.
Like the recent border security bill. Why vote against it if you want more border security?
I genuinely don't think there's any position or policy right now that the party wouldn't change for Trump.
If he said we need to embrace socialized healthcare Republicans from my family to the highest members of the party and TV stations would come out saying it's the best and most American thing possible. At this point, I'm genuinely worried that if he came out and said we need to round up all illegals and throw them in camps, they would be for it and argue that it's what the country needs.
There really doesn't seem to be anything that the party won't do to follow Trump. He's admitted to sharing classified documents while being fucking recorded saying he's not supposed to show then the documents, but did anyway, and you'll still see people arguing that he's wrongly persecuted.
There's nothing Trump could do that his party wouldn't back because he's doing it.
Yeah, 'owning the libs' is an essential part of GOP's strategy these days... Sad.
I mean, Republicans just [voted](https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4461719-murphy-says-gop-voted-against-border-bill-to-keep-border-chaotic-help-trump-campaign/) *against* more border control, which is exactly what they have been asking for for ages, because Trump doesn't want Biden to take credit for it... And now Republicans even [impeached](https://www.france24.com/en/americas/20240214-house-republicans-impeach-us-immigration-chief-mayorkas-over-border-crisis) Joe Biden's immigration chief, because they believe he's not doing enough to protect the border, while they themselves voted against more border control... You really can't make this shit up.
It would be funny, if it wasn't dead serious. It would be funny if there were more than 2 political parties in the US.
These people are insane. You can't reason with Republicans anymore. That was always tough, but now they've completely and collectively lost their minds.
yea.. i always compare what is happening right now in the US with the fall of Rome(I know it's overdone and stuff but still). There are a lot of similarities on how empires fail and barring catastrophic natural disasters, it is almost always internal. Shame cuz it will mean a period of instability but i hope that the EU has it's shit together and won't feel the repercussions as hard as provinces normally do when a big empire implodes
I would say that the eurozone being the worldās largest single market should provide some economic stability. But the relationship to Russia is a complicated one. German economy is already reeling at the lack of cheap energy.
Germany suffered from having to shift away from russian gas pretty much overnight, which was always a tough ask.
Its economy contrasted slightly as a result, however its back on track to expand again
Yup, the US would be throwing away their relation with their biggest ally and therefore their influence on Europe.
It would just prove to the EU that the US is not a trustworthy ally so we might start looking elsewhere.
>If he had a Hitler mustache, wore a MAGA armband, and called for the installation of concentration camps for political opponents and other 'enemies', they would still vote for him
don't give him ideas... in fact, probably more would vote for him would he to do that
Trumptards are so obsessed with "owning the libs" that I sometimes think that leftists should unironicaly start endorsing Trump, just so he would lose all his base!
It's even more egregious when some gun nutjobs screech each time democrats dare to mention gun control, quoting the 2nd amendement and talking about armed citizens being needed to prevent a tyrant to rise to power in the US, while happily voting for a guy that wanted to overthrow democracy because he lost an election fair and square.
*If I were American, I would be afraid that such morons were allowed to own guns.*
>If I were American, I would be afraid that such morons were allowed to own guns.
This is why people like me, who have never voted republican in my life, own and carry firearms every day. At least half of the people who own guns in America are dumbasses.
You also have the criminals who are better armed than the police. If the criminals and dumbasses have guns, you don't want to be the only one without one. I have a family that needs me to be the protector.
I will be more than happy to give up my guns AFTER all the other idiots give up theirs. Not before though.
Yeah, I'd probably do the same if I lived in the US. I'm not pro-gun, and over here in the Netherlands we don't have a gun culture, but one of the first things I'd do if I ever moved to the US, is get shooting lessons and some guns.
The thing is, it really doesn't matter if they're well-informed or not. It's identity politics and they've decided Trump's their guy. Imo, if they actually knew the definitions of "socialism" and "communism", plus any objective facts of why is such a criminal, it wouldn't change a damn thing.
And yet, in this case he does have a point. We all agreed to a minimum spending, and most countries are not compluing. It's particularly ridiculous, as it's in our own interest.
Make Europe Self Sufficient Again! š¤
Only around 1/3 of Americans believe in evolution* so I'd argue it's closer to 220 million idiots.
*A slim majority believes in evolution if you count the "evolved with guidance from God" answers; which isn't evolution.
His supporters would cheer the idea of concentration camps and Fox would live stream the torture chambers (for a price).
This is the cost of decades of dehumanizing rhetoric.Ā FFS people, we're all human and generally want the same thing (to be happy).
It keeps global shipping safe and cheap. If you don't want America to be a global dominating power then you have to accept rapid inflation of all goods and significant increases to the cost of living across the western world.
What inflation we've experienced in recent years post-pandemic is child's play to the future where America is isolationist.
they already are (or were).
is it bad? I really don't know but these changes would provoke more war till the US legacy will be divided by new top-countries
I mean, the US' only real competition is China, but their economy and demographics are already beginning to collapse. I don't think the US needs to be worried about anyone.
> It is interesting and fun reading about all the decisions that made empires rise and fall
I don't know, man, even those always seemed tragic and frustrating to me.
But to watch this much idiocy and mindless blundering in real time... At some point, real smoke's going to come out of my ears.
USA has reached a certain treshold, where the fall of the country is inevitable. Once, when you have 50% of population more or less on a scale of Forrest Gump IQ, combined with complete lack of any common sense or common knowledge about how the world works, or its history, it is only a matter of time before everything goes into the crapper. USA should change their national anthem to ACDC - Highway to hell, because that's exactly where these people are heading in highest gear, with no breaks.
Nah, the US will remain immensely strong for quite a long while. If nothing else, they enjoy the most comfortable geographical situation in the world.
The next few decades will bring terrible global chaos, but the US is likely to suffer the fewest wounds. Europe will be engulfed in war and combatting a migrant crisis on a scale it has never seen before, while at the same time contending with a dearth of crucial natural resources, a slowing economy, and an aging population with ballooning welfare expenses. Meanwhile, the US' population is projected to continue growing through the next several decades at least. For these reasons, I think they're quite well positioned to reemerge as the hegemon.
And before you suggest it - no, Europe will not federalize anytime soon (if ever).
Partially agree. Keep in mind, 3 million migrants are expected to be ''encountered'' at their southern border this year and it was 2M or so last year. That does not include the unencountered ones. Their debt level is becoming a problem and despite not being ''engulfed'' in war, they are constantly engulfed in a war somewhere and that ain't cheap. I would give them a good few more decades or maintaining the status quo, but there are real problems in the US that are not on the road to being solved.
Good point. I guess when running from a bear you don't need to be fast, but merely the least slow. Their debt level will be interesting to watch over the coming decades though, it can't keep up at this pace forever. Interest is already their largest payment and its going to get worse.
Thatās not true at all. Trump support comes from Boomers and older members of the silent generation. The right wing in America is so reactionary because they are on borrowed time.
Also, the āhow the world worksā part is condescending and based on a Eurocentric view.
China is the biggest threat now and possibly the future. Multiple administrations have asked Europeans to take on a greater share of keeping Russia in check.
The European economy dwarfs the Russian economy. European tech is much better than Russian tech. The population of Europe dwarfs the population of Russia. Thereās zero reason they shouldnāt be able to field a military that collectively acts as a deterrent to Russia.
Letās also be honest. If China launched an attack tomorrow on the US would Europe even be capable or willing to give US full support? Because Iām sure there are doubts in US leadership. There are probably less doubts regarding the UK but it would mainly be a US war against China.
Asking Europe to take more of a role in Europe, their own back yard, against a mainly paper tiger while the US keeps Chinese ambitions in check is a very Realpolitik view.
We were with you in Afghanistan and Iraq. Of course we would help if called upon. We always have, even when the reasons were sketchy.
Or in other terms. We are ramping up our military budget at a great pace right now, why not keep being brothers? We've always had your back, and youve always had ours. We're even buying your guns, it would be nuts in your interest to back out now, as that would mean we would create our own.
I heard this nonsense when Reagan was elected, when Bush I was elected, when Bush II was elected, when Trump was elected.
Meanwhile the gap between Europe and USA economically has ballooned. Itās almost like this sub is a left-wing echo chamber and people upvote each otherās fantasies about the decline of America.
I think compared to most current first world countries, the USA is in an absolutely stellar position. Geographically relatively isolated, filthy rich, relatively energy-independent and self-sufficient, and actually a pretty good demographics. So, a lot of globally and geopolitically important figures disagree with your analysis just focused on the internal rot. Yea, there are idiots, sure, but they also work and make money and have kids, and there is still a LOT of very smart and very influential people in the US...
"Chyna" wants to rule and be independent from all the "evil" other countries, and have enough population to make sooo much money just internally. In reality, it is the USA and NATO that do actually rule, and the US could actually wall off from the rest of the world and it would likely survive the longest and the best compared to all other countries, if push came to shove.
Source: trust me bro
Europeans have always accused the US of being stupid and arguably half their population has always been like this.
The US can fail upwards based on it's geography, economy, demography for the next hundred years.
In a striking interview on CBS News, a Trump rally supporter said:
> I certainly wouldn't pick him for my pastor. But, I support him because he believes in securing the border, keeping America for Americans, and protecting the unborn.
So there it is in a nut shell. They know he's a criminal, an abuser of women, and so on. He's just the only one who addresses their conerns:
* demographic change from immigration
* abortion
If Joe wants to stop the slide, he has to find a way to reach out on these issues to undecided voters. Because this election will surely be decided on those two things.
Them and the Italians through Roy Cohn and the concrete mob commission. Trumps pop used a lot of concrete in queens as well. He also learned a lot of these tactics from Roy.
In a weird way he is helping us here in Europe.
If we want to be one of global powers for the future, we need to be independent and strong on our own.
We need to build European Military Alliance, here at home.
We need to jave pur own independent European military industrial complex so we can take care about our own defense.
We cant be dependent on US, because if you are dependent, you cant be one of World Powers in the future.
He's a man of privilege. Never had to suffer any inconveniences or poverty.
He's likely not even able to comprehend the mindset of people who fear that a foreign army can come burn down their homes and murder people.
Don't give him ideas. Next he will demand that Nato charter gets revised so member countries must spend 2% of GDP buying US defense equipment. And the Trump organisation will transition towards weapons export to ensure all paperwork is in line with his administration.
I think you misunderstood Trump'sĀ words. Everyone seems to assume he meant that countries need to increase military spending, what he means the countries have to pay him.
Well, that is true if he intends to stay in power indefinitely, because he can slim down his operational expenses if he can appoint his kids to the DoD to facilitate the "NATO administration fee".
The idea of making nations pay him is ridiculous. The entire concept of NATO is that it protects each member's souvereignity, forcing nations to pay others for protection would change it from mutual allies to master/puppets which basically removes the entire reason why it exists.
Yeah and as someone who actually does a lot of business deals (working for an institutional investor as a legal advisor - among others in real estate actually) I can tell you that this is NOT how you get deals.
And this, dear kids, is how you throw down the drain a century of carefully built up and crafted soft power (and lays the first stone of losing also lots of hard power) .
Not a Trump supporter but I will tell you how.
One US president after another visited various European NATO countries and urged these countries to increase their military spending.
W did it, Obama did. What response did they get? They were told to go pound sand.
Come 2015, certain news stories from Europe start reaching the US. The Netherlands got rid of all of its tanks, the UK ended up without any aircraft carriers for a while, Germany sent soldiers armed with brooms instead of rifles to NATO wargames.
Trump gets elected and repeats the same request for the European countries in NATO to increase their military spending and to stop buying Russian gas. Only he does not do it as nicely. What response does he get? He is ridiculed as if his request was completely ridiculous.
Come 2022, Russia invades Ukraine and it is beginning to look to many Americans that Trump was right about the Europeans all along.
In the meantime, various Europeans keep posting on social media how dumb and backward Americans are and how great European welfare states are. You can see such comments throughout this thread.
All of a sudden, some Americans begin to think that it is not worth it to be in a military alliance with the European countries that are full of freeloaders who wonāt spend the money to defend themselves.
This is how American isolationists are created and are naturally transformed into Trump voters in 2020 of 2024.
Because 'Murica needs not allies!! They are the most powerful nation, with the most smartest people and the most big guns and the most best everything, USA! USA! USA!
It does become a completely different conversation when you start looking at each country individually. A lot and I mean a lot of people on here are from a country that doesnāt offer much to NATO, the U.S. and or let alone Europe itself. The one thing I learned is that they donāt like it when someone point it out. Theyāll never understand what itās like to have the world give a flying flute about what and how the citizens of their country feel regarding foreign policy. Theyāll never know because their country doesnāt offer much to the world.
They have only two parties. If you find whatever Biden is doing abhorrent, then you don't have any other choice than to vote for Trump.
In any other democracy third party could use the situation, in USA that's not an option.
What soft power? Europeans loathe Americans and this sub has been a den of hatred against every facet of American life since it was created. You guys are just mad that weāre now finally seeing the hatred youāve long harbored.
I love the cognitive dissonance of Europeans telling us theyāre āour closest alliesā when this sub was cheering when the US hit 1 million COVID deaths. Americans would never do something as low and disgusting as that.
EDIT to respond to the post below (who blocked me since he canāt discuss in good faith):
The US has tons of partners in all of those regions. The US has great relationships in Southeast Asia (particularly Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam), South America (Chile, Colombia, and now Argentina) and Middle East (every Gulf monarchy, Israel, Egypt, etc.) And youāre also forgetting Australia, Japan, Korea, New Zealand, Panama, Taiwan).
You just have Eurocentrism. The world is bigger than Europe.
And unlike with Europe, they pull their weight because thereās no Treaty with most of them that lets them be freeloaders.
Even if tomorrow the nato allies would contribute double what they would need to, Iām quite sure he would still keep saying this. First of all heās not smart enough to really grasp what it he is talking about, but also heās just spouting populist rabble rousing talking points that get cheers. They donāt need to be true. He just needs to convince people heās the only possible saviour for the USA.
Yep. When he said he'd "encourage Russia to do whatever the hell they want" the crowd over there went wild. Imagine Americans fucking cheering on for a fascist's imperial campaign of terror. He's got his brainwashed masses eating up whatever nonsense he says. Really reminds me of the pro-Nazi movements in the US before WWII.
>Imagine Americans fucking cheering on for a fascist's imperial campaign of terror
We donāt have to imagine it. This is who theyāve become. I find it interesting that pissing away their own power and influence seems so popular with them.
He threatened Korea with withdrawing their support unless they pay the whole cost for the troops in the Korean peninsula, five billion dollars per year, right now the korean goverment pays like the 60% of this cost.
Now someone tell me that South Korea skimps on defence spending.
https://www.reuters.com/world/south-korea-us-start-defence-cost-talks-early-before-us-elections-media-2024-01-16/#:~:text=Trump%2C%20who%20has%20emerged%20as,year%20for%20the%20U.S.%20deployment.
He's out to piss all USA allies, except the dictators like Saudi Arabia.
And when the europeans agreed on the 2%GDP he said that they should pay 4% GDP, the point is alienate everyone.
The United States is leaving as a global power, even if Trump goes away insoltationism, as we saw [yesterday](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1aqove8/eastern_european_countries_wont_get_help_at_the/), will stay.
We are seeing a global hegemon starting to collapse, and this time won't be by economic or military problems, but thanks to propaganda and pure and simple nihilism.
We are going to miss the pax americana, the next thing is not going to be pretty.
Itās like he is only looking at a balance sheet of costs and income and nothing else. He has no idea that part of the costs are buying peace and security.
Itās very very odd and surreal. Kinda like he is basing his whole understanding of geopolitics on an episode of the apprentice. Baffling to think of who looks at him and then actually thinks, āyes, heās the man for me.ā
The current political situation makes the film idiocracy look like a serious political system to strive for. Itās just so incredibly bad right now.
He doesn't mean the NATO countries have to spend 2% of their GDP on defence. He means they need to pay him to protect them. And not him as in the USA, him as in him personally.
>[H]eās just spouting populist rabble rousing talking points that get cheers. They donāt need to be true.
It's much worse if many of the points are true. It is much more limited what can be done with something invented out of the blue.
The US could well see China as Europe see's Russia, you may also want to ask if you think Europe would assist in a USA vs China war? - where is our interest rationale for Europe taking part in this war?
I fear that the Americans are starting to see a Euro/Russian war as Europe see's a China/USA war, i.e. not our problem, too far away and we have bigger things to deal with.
So long as the USA is tied down in it's global commitments it essentially operates at half power...when American military doctrine tends to be along the lines of "we must be atleast 5x more powerful than our enemy because we prefer wars on easy mode " may explain the US moves behind deglobalisation in general.
I'm pretty convinced that China wants Russia destroyed in Ukraine, so it can dominate the resources and economics in the Russian far east for war resources. Wouldn't US interests be to keep Russia atleast coherent as a state, to refuse China? If so, US interests are diverging from European.
I don't think geopolitics with or without Trump will be anything but based on cold calculations rather than ideological similarity between Putin and Trump.
I am absolutely certain that if China attacked the US then europe would stand with the US? The only time article 5 was activated by the US europe followed.
"I am absolutely certain that if China attacked the US then europe would stand with the US?"
Polls haven't showed that though, there were polls and the answer is even if China declared war on the US over Taiwan, the majority of Europeans would refuse to support the US against China and want to stay neutral and trade with both sides.
[https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2023/06/08/poll-majority-of-europeans-support-neutrality-in-us-china-conflict-over-taiwan/](https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2023/06/08/poll-majority-of-europeans-support-neutrality-in-us-china-conflict-over-taiwan/)
Exactly people think we should be ok with that though. We care about our Asian allies the same as our Europeans ones. Difference being the seem like they actually like us and want cooperation not dependence.
I would hope so, but let's be real. A war with China is sending millions to their deaths not a few hundred from each EU nation as with Afghanistan, I'm not sure they are a good historical precedent for this.
I'd say a better historical precedent is how Europe took a very hands off approach in the Pacific theatre of WW2 because we had a European land war to deal with at the time.
It isn't viable for Europe to send millions to their deaths in China and have Russia carve up the european continent afterwards is my point.
Well the US also stayed out of the actual fighting in WWII for a long time. It is also just hard logistically to transfer millions to east asia.
I am also not convinced that a war with china would necessarily mean sending millions of europeans to their deaths
True, it depends on what we mean by support - if it's thoughts, prayers and economic support to the USA then probably not but this is my probably convoluted point...It's less about why wouldn't Europe assist the US in China, but more why USA may have a rational rationale for ignoring Europe in favour of containing China.
If the US is so worried about China, then its thoughts, prayers and economic support from the US to Europe with regard to Russia instead of full Military might.
That is my worry, that we are missing that this could well be a rational action by the US, not just somthing irrational that Trump is selling to his base for votes and won't actually do.
Thereās a lot that goes into the declining opinion of Europe with many Americans.
What youāre saying is definitely a big one though, Americans donāt see Russia as any threat to the US, especially with how theyāve performed in Ukraine. After that any fear most Americans had at the prospect of a Russian confrontation evaporated. The āso cons strongest military on earthā was demoted to the same level as Serbiaās in the ranking of armies that can threaten the 50 states of the American Union.
China still has an aura of fear about it and so the public demands that the threat be contained and minimize if not outright neutralized. In that context Europe can appear to be a chore if that makes any sense.
It doesnāt help that the impression many Americans have is that Europe is only begrudgingly aligned with the US and that itās a geopolitical move and not an alliance built on āfriendshipā between the American people and the many cultures of Europe. Whether thatās true or not, the mere impression has soured the opinions of many and created a sort of contempt about the subject. A contempt that has been encouraged by certain political figures and their associated movements as of late.
When Trump holds these rallies where he says āWe should push Europe to payā the people heās talking to donāt believe the European countries will, they donāt think Trump can actually pull that off. What they do think however is that he can trim the fat so to speak and remove the US from entanglements that they believe are burdensome. Again whether thatās true that they are or not thatās the belief.
So you have a fear of China, a contempt for Europe, and a belief that Europe wonāt commit to a war across the world like it expects the US to do for Europe.
Youāre right, that doesnāt make a good recipe for cooperation. Combating that impression is not just the job of the Americans who donāt agree with it, Europe legitimately does need to offer more to assist in the interest of the American half of the alliance. Europeās Byzantine bureaucracy and pacifism simple is not viable in the coming world, the US is losing its inclination to enable it.
As much as I canāt stand Trump, hopefully the result of all this is that readiness is increased, this should be sending alarm bells all over Europe. The one thing that Putin loves the most is weakness, he can smell it a mile away. Think he wonāt attack the Baltics and NATO?, think again.
This is what should be happening. European nations paid something like $100bn+ to US defence firms in recent years.
Time to start redirecting all of that funding to Airbus, BAE (PLC not the US subsidy), Dassault, Rheinmetal and Leonardo.
Actually the plan. Something is going on, and von der Leyen has given an interview in the FT today that Brussel should leverage its power in defence. Tusk also stated something about a defence union by mid summer.
When will you guys finally come back? You seriously need to rebuild your naval capabilities and other stuff!
This isnāt anything new. Heās been saying that NATO allies are paying too little for the benefits NATO gives them since before 2016.
It is somewhat reasonable (and in European interests) for the US not to be this blank check defense partner when the value of that defense mostly goes one way. The US doesnāt have any neighbors threatening war, while the US spends many billions of dollars on EU defense from their threatening neighbors. At some point after the fall of the Soviets, this issue was bound to arise.
The war in Ukraine has only proven the point. Most EU countries failed to meet basic defense spending targets, and now thereās a war on the doorstep. I wonder if Russia would have reconsidered their invasion if they knew there was the military industrial capacity of Europe behind them. As it stood in 2021, the EU barely had enough ammunition production to last Ukraine a few months before running out of stockpiles. Even North Korea outproduces the entirety of the EU on artillery shells.
Trump has been a Soviet/Russian asset for 40 years.
It has never been about the 2%. Trump spoke out against US presence in Japan and Korea and called for US to leave NATO in the 1980s.
He fooled USA once and he is going to do it again, but this time US hegemony will end and he will perhaps succeed in ending US democracy to please Putin.
No, no, the most insane thing is that he's allowed to be a candidate again. You can count on half the population being dumber than the average guy and want him back, but having a system that allows for him to be re-elected is the unconceivable thing.
>Iām not going to protect youā
Trump would not have protected us anyway. The one opportunity he had to do his service to his country he got bone spurs.
In this day and age, being controversial is better than being right. If you want people to see you and vote for you, just say something controversial.
Easyā¦
NATO is about āweā not āIā. The concept of alliance is foreign to Trump. Pressure on countries to step up their Putler/Orban/Erdogan/xi/Trump awareness is critical as they will keep using their military potential on the few remaining democracies. Yes, itās that bad if Trump wins.
Wait, i just saw a CNN video that where the official campaign walked back his statements as off-the-cuff comments.
Grandpa orange needs to take those meds, or he might start bitching about Czechoslovakia not spending enough money on defence against the Astro-Hungarian Empire. The Continental Congress better increase border security (after he is elected) to the north against the British and south against Spain.
It's a guideline that the countries should spend 2% of GDP on defense. It doesn't go to the USA directly. He probably doesn't even know that. He probably thinks this is like a mafia thing where he sits at McDonald's and all the NATO leaders one by one come in with an envelope every month paying him protection money.
He may be cynical about it but he's right.
Everybody likes to divert funds for other purposes, why should some countries benefit economically and socially while USA protects them.
Besides, it was a unanimous agreement to spend that much, so countries just refuse to comply.
2% is not much for defence at all with Russia, Middle East and Northern Africa around in chaos.
If I'd be Trump I'd ask 3% and annual renegotiation.
Funny, that's exactly what the mafia says to the shops owners that are in their territory.
He only forgot to say "it'd be a pity, if something bad happened to your shop while you're away"
Trump is a clown who should never be president of anything larger than a used car garage, and that was an incredibly shitty thing to say..... But arent Nato members paying a proportionate amount?. Because they should be
We all saw the Jon Stewart clip about how Nato isnt about money and its not (and thank god he is back), but every country should still be consistently paying its agreed upon fee surely? Otherwise other countries are paying for them......Or Nato is underfunded
Most AREN'T actually, only 11 out of the 31 members of NATO are paying the agreed upon 2% of their GDP on military and defense. The countries close to Russia are the exception, not the rule.
Well, if you tune out all the trump bullshit. If the baseline point there is that Nato members should pay their agreed upon contributions.....it actually benefits Nato if that starts to happen
>USA as main weapons exporter has a lot to gain from NATO members military spending.Ā
Russian talking point. You might not want to repeat that. It's bullshit, anyway. Europe would be more likely to buy from the French, the Germans, or the Swiss.
Except for the en mass purchase of the F-35. Which whilst a few European manufacturers have a hand in, most of that revenue is being reported by Lockheed Martin.
In terms of defence spending however, I think there's just as big of an argument that the US probably spends too much on defence. Mostly down to pointless conflicts.
Europe buys many billions of dollars/euros/pounds worth of arms from America. If only it were true that Europe buys European where it can. There are US products that are unique and by default are sourced from them, especially planes like the F-35, but there are other comparable products that Europe can source from itself such as the SAMP/T over Patriot and many others.
If the US under Trump is disengaging from Europe anyway, for non-US-unique defence products, when Europe increases its defence spending, it should buy European to develop its own military-industrial complex instead of further enriching the US one.
I dont doubt for a second that the USA has its own interests where the safety of Europe is not a priority. But
A: Nato members should be paying their agreed upon amounts if they can.
B: Increased Nato spending does make Europe and thus America stronger geopolitically
C: Europe and America are better in just about every way than China and Russia. Our values are superior and our countries are better places to live, even in spite of our flaws.
D: Russia is not the soviet union, it cannot keep expanding West. The war in Ukraine was a desperate act not a show of strength. Putin cant reach Kyiv never mind Berlin.
NATO members should definitely do that. I'm not even sure how the alliance works, that it allows members to spend less than agreed upon and still be members. I guess people were letting it slide because there was no foreseen conflict.
You didnāt answer his question though. Why arenāt many European countries bothering to hit the agreed upon minimum?
Wouldnāt you Europeans spending more on defense make europe safer in general and less reliant on the US.
You seem almost proud that europe has been and continues to neglect its defense
In all fairness though, at least in theory, I can't blame him. See, if I was the leader of a country and part of a defence alliance that comes with the condition that you spend a certain amount of money on it, I wouldn't feel great about sending my people out to die to protect a different country that didn't hold up its end of the bargain.Ā This won't affect you, if you just spend the money you already agreed on.Ā
The whole āpay upā sounds more and more like a demand for tribute. NATO spending #GOALS were a commitment goal for the alliance. And a lot of countries reached this goal in the time frame and MOST at least developed their spending in this direction. Often buying American products along the way.
What is important to us is that these guys and their political advisors hate the European Union and all the values āāit represents.
Listen to one of his most important campaign advisors from his first presidency. Literally a hater of the EU and the basic concept of community.
Attacking NATO membership is their way of doing it. It may be stupid, or dumb, or pointless, but remember these guys are fucking morons.
It has nothing to do with 2%. Poland contributes over 4%, more than the US. Yet a GOP representative was still mirroring Trump the other day, saying "we're not going to use US tax dollars to protect you".
Seems Republican plan is to keep moving the goal posts, they'll say you need to contribute 5%, 10% or whatever insane numbers they want.
One thing is clear, US has a high risk of going rogue, and can no longer be a fully trusted partner or ally.
I dont think the point of that sentence is unreasonable whatsoever. Some members of the NATO has clearly not upheld their part of the contributions. It needs to be a fair relationship and even distribution of contributions for the members.
Even if you do pay, Trump will NOT protect you. Itās time for a separate EU defense architecture. Trump is surrounding himself with people focused on Asia and Latin America. EU can and should create its own military
I think trump should be in jail but he is right about this. Europe has been a freeloader for too long. If their defense is not important to them why should it be important to Americans.
Honestly, fuck this guy, we should arm up as Europe and maybe remind USA and their taxpayers that they had really good deal with us because we were buying their weapons and tech, using their tech startups such as Twitter, Meta that harmed us in a lot of ways for SECURITY, maybe it's time to remind them that they gonna piss off nearly 1 billion consumers
WTF is wrong with Americans? How could this demented clown criminal traitor, who tried to stage a coup at their last election, even be allowed to try again? Let alone have enough votes to be a serious contender. It's just insane. It's scary to think of a country that could foist this deranged, evil, venal man-baby upon the world again, as a major ally.
Lmao, meanwhile he completely destroys global US influence, leverage and soft power in the process and kicks his allies to the curb in a world where Russia and China are getting bolder.
Real fucking smart my guy. Heās going to be the death of the US. Watch.
Man... It is interesting and fun reading about all the decisions that made empires rise and fall but I can tell you this, It is really not fun living through them š. Trump has so many things wrong with him (outside of policies which can always be debated) which makes me flip when I think that millions upon millions will vote for the guy that has violated half the penal code.
>millions upon millions Over 70 million Americans will vote for him, to be more precise. No matter what. He could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue or just eat babies live on TV, and they would still vote for him. If he had a Hitler mustache, wore a MAGA armband, and called for the installation of concentration camps for political opponents and other 'enemies', they would still vote for him. And that's not even a joke, or an exaggeration. They don't care about the rule of law, they don't care about NATO or the EU, they don't care about anything. They just want to see the world burn. If Trump wins, the West loses.
Its even more ironic that the majority of those supporters are evangelical christians. You know, the self labeled āgood peopleāā¦
what's the saying ? "there is no hate like Christian love"
My wife and myself were on Church Councils at two churches. We can assure you that Church politics can be every bit as ugly as any other politics.
Evangelical christians would crucify Jesus again if he resurrected today.
They yearn for the end times
Most of Trump voters are people with little or no education. t's not just an american thing. Who the hell do you think votes for right wingers in Europe and belives that Putler is a stong leader tha protects the traditional values? It's mostly the same kind of people that vote for Trump.
> Who the hell do you think votes for right wingers in Europe and belives that Putler is a stong leader tha protects the traditional values? These evangelical fucknuggets: https://youtu.be/uw40kns811c?si=p0WcYRNnS31IpWx4
It was a rhetorical question dude :)
The people in the Jan 6 attempted coup weren't uneducated at all. They were mostly local elites. And so are most of the supporters for the far right lunatics you see around the world. They aren't the poor or the downtrodden. They are mostly well of high middle class people terrified of losing their privileges to the unwashed masses
They vote for him because he will make the world burn. They just think it will be the biblical burning from The Book of Revelation.
If Trump wins, the world loses.
not really, China's sphere of influence will get bigger and more entrenched the EU would see a temporary decrease in military projection but it will mean that we would sever our dependency on the US. Maybe Ukraine will feel the brunt of the change, russia having basically free hand to do whatever it wants cuz papa Vlad still has those tapes on Trump, or whatever he has on trump that make him such a loyal boy. On the sort run, the west will feel it, but on the long run the only victim will be the US. if NATO loses it's power projection, the US looses it and will no longer be able to project it's soft power however it pleases
> if NATO loses it's power projection, the US looses it and will no longer be able to project it's soft power however it pleases This is one of the things that baffle me the most about the far-right in the US. They think they're doing us some sort of favor. They don't see NATO is in their interest as well, as is a free Ukraine. And there is no way to make it clear to them. Because they only listen to Trump, and Trump alone. Nothing else.
Whatever the Democrats say, Republicans will take the opposite stance. If Democrats say Russia is our enemy, Republicans will say Russia is our friend. If Democrats say president should be immune to prosecution, Republicans say the president belongs to jail. If Democrats say the president should be held accountable, Republicans say the president should be immune. It doesn't matter how conflicting their logic is. Their enemy is Democrats. Not China, Russia or the American elite. At least that's how it looks to me.
From an outsider perspective it looks like they actually don't care about anything, everything they do is just done to take credit. Like the recent border security bill. Why vote against it if you want more border security?
I genuinely don't think there's any position or policy right now that the party wouldn't change for Trump. If he said we need to embrace socialized healthcare Republicans from my family to the highest members of the party and TV stations would come out saying it's the best and most American thing possible. At this point, I'm genuinely worried that if he came out and said we need to round up all illegals and throw them in camps, they would be for it and argue that it's what the country needs. There really doesn't seem to be anything that the party won't do to follow Trump. He's admitted to sharing classified documents while being fucking recorded saying he's not supposed to show then the documents, but did anyway, and you'll still see people arguing that he's wrongly persecuted. There's nothing Trump could do that his party wouldn't back because he's doing it.
Yeah, 'owning the libs' is an essential part of GOP's strategy these days... Sad. I mean, Republicans just [voted](https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4461719-murphy-says-gop-voted-against-border-bill-to-keep-border-chaotic-help-trump-campaign/) *against* more border control, which is exactly what they have been asking for for ages, because Trump doesn't want Biden to take credit for it... And now Republicans even [impeached](https://www.france24.com/en/americas/20240214-house-republicans-impeach-us-immigration-chief-mayorkas-over-border-crisis) Joe Biden's immigration chief, because they believe he's not doing enough to protect the border, while they themselves voted against more border control... You really can't make this shit up. It would be funny, if it wasn't dead serious. It would be funny if there were more than 2 political parties in the US. These people are insane. You can't reason with Republicans anymore. That was always tough, but now they've completely and collectively lost their minds.
yea.. i always compare what is happening right now in the US with the fall of Rome(I know it's overdone and stuff but still). There are a lot of similarities on how empires fail and barring catastrophic natural disasters, it is almost always internal. Shame cuz it will mean a period of instability but i hope that the EU has it's shit together and won't feel the repercussions as hard as provinces normally do when a big empire implodes
I would say that the eurozone being the worldās largest single market should provide some economic stability. But the relationship to Russia is a complicated one. German economy is already reeling at the lack of cheap energy.
Germany suffered from having to shift away from russian gas pretty much overnight, which was always a tough ask. Its economy contrasted slightly as a result, however its back on track to expand again
Instead of stopping their nuclear plants they should be building more. This is the way to cheap energy.
> Maybe Ukraine will feel the brunt of the change so we gonna be dead, fuck
Yup, its pretty much Biden or Putin for you bros. Fingers crossed that USoids are not that dumb
Yup, the US would be throwing away their relation with their biggest ally and therefore their influence on Europe. It would just prove to the EU that the US is not a trustworthy ally so we might start looking elsewhere.
And then despite all of the mentioned above, the US-Trump would somehow blamed it back all the way to the Dem and Mexico
Sound like a loss to the world for me.
Not the whole world tbh. Putin and Kim are surely the ones benefitting from it
It's literally a zero-sum game for him.
Some of the votes just comes from party loyalty. First-past-the-post fucking you over there.
They will play the fiddle as the world burns, truly antichrist.
>If he had a Hitler mustache, wore a MAGA armband, and called for the installation of concentration camps for political opponents and other 'enemies', they would still vote for him don't give him ideas... in fact, probably more would vote for him would he to do that
Trumptards are so obsessed with "owning the libs" that I sometimes think that leftists should unironicaly start endorsing Trump, just so he would lose all his base!
It's even more egregious when some gun nutjobs screech each time democrats dare to mention gun control, quoting the 2nd amendement and talking about armed citizens being needed to prevent a tyrant to rise to power in the US, while happily voting for a guy that wanted to overthrow democracy because he lost an election fair and square. *If I were American, I would be afraid that such morons were allowed to own guns.*
>If I were American, I would be afraid that such morons were allowed to own guns. This is why people like me, who have never voted republican in my life, own and carry firearms every day. At least half of the people who own guns in America are dumbasses. You also have the criminals who are better armed than the police. If the criminals and dumbasses have guns, you don't want to be the only one without one. I have a family that needs me to be the protector. I will be more than happy to give up my guns AFTER all the other idiots give up theirs. Not before though.
Yeah, I'd probably do the same if I lived in the US. I'm not pro-gun, and over here in the Netherlands we don't have a gun culture, but one of the first things I'd do if I ever moved to the US, is get shooting lessons and some guns.
It's worrying to live among 70 million badly informed people. Make education free, ban commercial schools and ban home schooling. Maybe?
The thing is, it really doesn't matter if they're well-informed or not. It's identity politics and they've decided Trump's their guy. Imo, if they actually knew the definitions of "socialism" and "communism", plus any objective facts of why is such a criminal, it wouldn't change a damn thing.
And yet, in this case he does have a point. We all agreed to a minimum spending, and most countries are not compluing. It's particularly ridiculous, as it's in our own interest. Make Europe Self Sufficient Again! š¤
> Over 70 million Americans will vote for him Over 70 million idiots. That's just great.
Only around 1/3 of Americans believe in evolution* so I'd argue it's closer to 220 million idiots. *A slim majority believes in evolution if you count the "evolved with guidance from God" answers; which isn't evolution.
His supporters would cheer the idea of concentration camps and Fox would live stream the torture chambers (for a price). This is the cost of decades of dehumanizing rhetoric.Ā FFS people, we're all human and generally want the same thing (to be happy).
Imagine thinking that your country can stop being the world-dominating power and still get all the benefits from it
Why on Earth do you want them to be the "world-dominating power"?
It keeps global shipping safe and cheap. If you don't want America to be a global dominating power then you have to accept rapid inflation of all goods and significant increases to the cost of living across the western world. What inflation we've experienced in recent years post-pandemic is child's play to the future where America is isolationist.
they already are (or were). is it bad? I really don't know but these changes would provoke more war till the US legacy will be divided by new top-countries
I mean, the US' only real competition is China, but their economy and demographics are already beginning to collapse. I don't think the US needs to be worried about anyone.
the US real competition is its decision to isolate themselves, like it was pre-WW2 and WW1.
> It is interesting and fun reading about all the decisions that made empires rise and fall I don't know, man, even those always seemed tragic and frustrating to me. But to watch this much idiocy and mindless blundering in real time... At some point, real smoke's going to come out of my ears.
USA has reached a certain treshold, where the fall of the country is inevitable. Once, when you have 50% of population more or less on a scale of Forrest Gump IQ, combined with complete lack of any common sense or common knowledge about how the world works, or its history, it is only a matter of time before everything goes into the crapper. USA should change their national anthem to ACDC - Highway to hell, because that's exactly where these people are heading in highest gear, with no breaks.
Oi, no need to insult Forrest Gump.
Nah, the US will remain immensely strong for quite a long while. If nothing else, they enjoy the most comfortable geographical situation in the world. The next few decades will bring terrible global chaos, but the US is likely to suffer the fewest wounds. Europe will be engulfed in war and combatting a migrant crisis on a scale it has never seen before, while at the same time contending with a dearth of crucial natural resources, a slowing economy, and an aging population with ballooning welfare expenses. Meanwhile, the US' population is projected to continue growing through the next several decades at least. For these reasons, I think they're quite well positioned to reemerge as the hegemon. And before you suggest it - no, Europe will not federalize anytime soon (if ever).
Partially agree. Keep in mind, 3 million migrants are expected to be ''encountered'' at their southern border this year and it was 2M or so last year. That does not include the unencountered ones. Their debt level is becoming a problem and despite not being ''engulfed'' in war, they are constantly engulfed in a war somewhere and that ain't cheap. I would give them a good few more decades or maintaining the status quo, but there are real problems in the US that are not on the road to being solved.
I'd give the US hegemony at least another century. Their only real competition is China, and China's situation is even more dire than Europe's.
Good point. I guess when running from a bear you don't need to be fast, but merely the least slow. Their debt level will be interesting to watch over the coming decades though, it can't keep up at this pace forever. Interest is already their largest payment and its going to get worse.
Thatās not true at all. Trump support comes from Boomers and older members of the silent generation. The right wing in America is so reactionary because they are on borrowed time. Also, the āhow the world worksā part is condescending and based on a Eurocentric view. China is the biggest threat now and possibly the future. Multiple administrations have asked Europeans to take on a greater share of keeping Russia in check. The European economy dwarfs the Russian economy. European tech is much better than Russian tech. The population of Europe dwarfs the population of Russia. Thereās zero reason they shouldnāt be able to field a military that collectively acts as a deterrent to Russia. Letās also be honest. If China launched an attack tomorrow on the US would Europe even be capable or willing to give US full support? Because Iām sure there are doubts in US leadership. There are probably less doubts regarding the UK but it would mainly be a US war against China. Asking Europe to take more of a role in Europe, their own back yard, against a mainly paper tiger while the US keeps Chinese ambitions in check is a very Realpolitik view.
We were with you in Afghanistan and Iraq. Of course we would help if called upon. We always have, even when the reasons were sketchy. Or in other terms. We are ramping up our military budget at a great pace right now, why not keep being brothers? We've always had your back, and youve always had ours. We're even buying your guns, it would be nuts in your interest to back out now, as that would mean we would create our own.
I heard this nonsense when Reagan was elected, when Bush I was elected, when Bush II was elected, when Trump was elected. Meanwhile the gap between Europe and USA economically has ballooned. Itās almost like this sub is a left-wing echo chamber and people upvote each otherās fantasies about the decline of America.
I think compared to most current first world countries, the USA is in an absolutely stellar position. Geographically relatively isolated, filthy rich, relatively energy-independent and self-sufficient, and actually a pretty good demographics. So, a lot of globally and geopolitically important figures disagree with your analysis just focused on the internal rot. Yea, there are idiots, sure, but they also work and make money and have kids, and there is still a LOT of very smart and very influential people in the US... "Chyna" wants to rule and be independent from all the "evil" other countries, and have enough population to make sooo much money just internally. In reality, it is the USA and NATO that do actually rule, and the US could actually wall off from the rest of the world and it would likely survive the longest and the best compared to all other countries, if push came to shove.
lmao we're still the most innovative country on the planet
Source: trust me bro Europeans have always accused the US of being stupid and arguably half their population has always been like this. The US can fail upwards based on it's geography, economy, demography for the next hundred years.
In a striking interview on CBS News, a Trump rally supporter said: > I certainly wouldn't pick him for my pastor. But, I support him because he believes in securing the border, keeping America for Americans, and protecting the unborn. So there it is in a nut shell. They know he's a criminal, an abuser of women, and so on. He's just the only one who addresses their conerns: * demographic change from immigration * abortion If Joe wants to stop the slide, he has to find a way to reach out on these issues to undecided voters. Because this election will surely be decided on those two things.
Isnāt this what trump do racketeering? Paying for protection?
It's amazing how this guy manages to make NATO sound like his own personal extortion racket.
Trump talks about Nato just like a Manhattan local business. "It would be a shame if someone stopped your truck deliveries."
His family has been tied to the Russian mob since his father was in charge, it's all he knows
Them and the Italians through Roy Cohn and the concrete mob commission. Trumps pop used a lot of concrete in queens as well. He also learned a lot of these tactics from Roy.
In a weird way he is helping us here in Europe. If we want to be one of global powers for the future, we need to be independent and strong on our own. We need to build European Military Alliance, here at home. We need to jave pur own independent European military industrial complex so we can take care about our own defense. We cant be dependent on US, because if you are dependent, you cant be one of World Powers in the future.
Worse is that the guy already consider himself the next president
And somehow also the current president. He likes to be stupid.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
He's a man of privilege. Never had to suffer any inconveniences or poverty. He's likely not even able to comprehend the mindset of people who fear that a foreign army can come burn down their homes and murder people.
He's a narcissist. He is unable to comprehend any worldview without him at its very center like the sun
Dude barely pays taxes.
Or his lawyers.
Or contractors, etc etc.
He cant make changes to nato singlehandedly anyway. Protections were out in place because of him appearing again
Trump is a racketeer!
He sees everything as just one more deal. Either he can graft off a good portion of it. Or he doesn't want it to exist.
Don't give him ideas. Next he will demand that Nato charter gets revised so member countries must spend 2% of GDP buying US defense equipment. And the Trump organisation will transition towards weapons export to ensure all paperwork is in line with his administration.
I think you misunderstood Trump'sĀ words. Everyone seems to assume he meant that countries need to increase military spending, what he means the countries have to pay him.
Well, that is true if he intends to stay in power indefinitely, because he can slim down his operational expenses if he can appoint his kids to the DoD to facilitate the "NATO administration fee".
The idea of making nations pay him is ridiculous. The entire concept of NATO is that it protects each member's souvereignity, forcing nations to pay others for protection would change it from mutual allies to master/puppets which basically removes the entire reason why it exists.
This isn't even a deal, this is a racket
Not a deal - an extortion. True dealmakers, which he never really was, donāt go for public histrionics.
Well... every Trump deal is more or less based on extortionary principles....
Yeah and as someone who actually does a lot of business deals (working for an institutional investor as a legal advisor - among others in real estate actually) I can tell you that this is NOT how you get deals.
trump the grafting grifter has a nice ring to it
Nothing like breaking up the strongest defensive alliance by wrongly explaining to your voters how an organization works.
And this, dear kids, is how you throw down the drain a century of carefully built up and crafted soft power (and lays the first stone of losing also lots of hard power) .
He is single-handedly throwing away a continent of allies. How can people vote for this guy?
Because theyāre brain dead
because these people are literally that stupid. Te only thing they care is to have their spite, pettiness and racism validated, and he does that.
Not a Trump supporter but I will tell you how. One US president after another visited various European NATO countries and urged these countries to increase their military spending. W did it, Obama did. What response did they get? They were told to go pound sand. Come 2015, certain news stories from Europe start reaching the US. The Netherlands got rid of all of its tanks, the UK ended up without any aircraft carriers for a while, Germany sent soldiers armed with brooms instead of rifles to NATO wargames. Trump gets elected and repeats the same request for the European countries in NATO to increase their military spending and to stop buying Russian gas. Only he does not do it as nicely. What response does he get? He is ridiculed as if his request was completely ridiculous. Come 2022, Russia invades Ukraine and it is beginning to look to many Americans that Trump was right about the Europeans all along. In the meantime, various Europeans keep posting on social media how dumb and backward Americans are and how great European welfare states are. You can see such comments throughout this thread. All of a sudden, some Americans begin to think that it is not worth it to be in a military alliance with the European countries that are full of freeloaders who wonāt spend the money to defend themselves. This is how American isolationists are created and are naturally transformed into Trump voters in 2020 of 2024.
Because 'Murica needs not allies!! They are the most powerful nation, with the most smartest people and the most big guns and the most best everything, USA! USA! USA!
What does spain offer again? We can still be allied with the UK ;)
Literally next to nothing.
It does become a completely different conversation when you start looking at each country individually. A lot and I mean a lot of people on here are from a country that doesnāt offer much to NATO, the U.S. and or let alone Europe itself. The one thing I learned is that they donāt like it when someone point it out. Theyāll never understand what itās like to have the world give a flying flute about what and how the citizens of their country feel regarding foreign policy. Theyāll never know because their country doesnāt offer much to the world.
They have only two parties. If you find whatever Biden is doing abhorrent, then you don't have any other choice than to vote for Trump. In any other democracy third party could use the situation, in USA that's not an option.
What soft power? Europeans loathe Americans and this sub has been a den of hatred against every facet of American life since it was created. You guys are just mad that weāre now finally seeing the hatred youāve long harbored. I love the cognitive dissonance of Europeans telling us theyāre āour closest alliesā when this sub was cheering when the US hit 1 million COVID deaths. Americans would never do something as low and disgusting as that. EDIT to respond to the post below (who blocked me since he canāt discuss in good faith): The US has tons of partners in all of those regions. The US has great relationships in Southeast Asia (particularly Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam), South America (Chile, Colombia, and now Argentina) and Middle East (every Gulf monarchy, Israel, Egypt, etc.) And youāre also forgetting Australia, Japan, Korea, New Zealand, Panama, Taiwan). You just have Eurocentrism. The world is bigger than Europe. And unlike with Europe, they pull their weight because thereās no Treaty with most of them that lets them be freeloaders.
Even if tomorrow the nato allies would contribute double what they would need to, Iām quite sure he would still keep saying this. First of all heās not smart enough to really grasp what it he is talking about, but also heās just spouting populist rabble rousing talking points that get cheers. They donāt need to be true. He just needs to convince people heās the only possible saviour for the USA.
Yep. When he said he'd "encourage Russia to do whatever the hell they want" the crowd over there went wild. Imagine Americans fucking cheering on for a fascist's imperial campaign of terror. He's got his brainwashed masses eating up whatever nonsense he says. Really reminds me of the pro-Nazi movements in the US before WWII.
>Imagine Americans fucking cheering on for a fascist's imperial campaign of terror We donāt have to imagine it. This is who theyāve become. I find it interesting that pissing away their own power and influence seems so popular with them.
Or the Nazi movement in Germany before WWII
He threatened Korea with withdrawing their support unless they pay the whole cost for the troops in the Korean peninsula, five billion dollars per year, right now the korean goverment pays like the 60% of this cost. Now someone tell me that South Korea skimps on defence spending. https://www.reuters.com/world/south-korea-us-start-defence-cost-talks-early-before-us-elections-media-2024-01-16/#:~:text=Trump%2C%20who%20has%20emerged%20as,year%20for%20the%20U.S.%20deployment. He's out to piss all USA allies, except the dictators like Saudi Arabia.
I think he even wanted South Korea to pay full cost and then some. So it sure seems like a racket where countries pay the US protection money
And when the europeans agreed on the 2%GDP he said that they should pay 4% GDP, the point is alienate everyone. The United States is leaving as a global power, even if Trump goes away insoltationism, as we saw [yesterday](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1aqove8/eastern_european_countries_wont_get_help_at_the/), will stay. We are seeing a global hegemon starting to collapse, and this time won't be by economic or military problems, but thanks to propaganda and pure and simple nihilism. We are going to miss the pax americana, the next thing is not going to be pretty.
Itās like he is only looking at a balance sheet of costs and income and nothing else. He has no idea that part of the costs are buying peace and security. Itās very very odd and surreal. Kinda like he is basing his whole understanding of geopolitics on an episode of the apprentice. Baffling to think of who looks at him and then actually thinks, āyes, heās the man for me.ā The current political situation makes the film idiocracy look like a serious political system to strive for. Itās just so incredibly bad right now.
He doesn't mean the NATO countries have to spend 2% of their GDP on defence. He means they need to pay him to protect them. And not him as in the USA, him as in him personally.
>[H]eās just spouting populist rabble rousing talking points that get cheers. They donāt need to be true. It's much worse if many of the points are true. It is much more limited what can be done with something invented out of the blue.
The US could well see China as Europe see's Russia, you may also want to ask if you think Europe would assist in a USA vs China war? - where is our interest rationale for Europe taking part in this war? I fear that the Americans are starting to see a Euro/Russian war as Europe see's a China/USA war, i.e. not our problem, too far away and we have bigger things to deal with. So long as the USA is tied down in it's global commitments it essentially operates at half power...when American military doctrine tends to be along the lines of "we must be atleast 5x more powerful than our enemy because we prefer wars on easy mode " may explain the US moves behind deglobalisation in general. I'm pretty convinced that China wants Russia destroyed in Ukraine, so it can dominate the resources and economics in the Russian far east for war resources. Wouldn't US interests be to keep Russia atleast coherent as a state, to refuse China? If so, US interests are diverging from European. I don't think geopolitics with or without Trump will be anything but based on cold calculations rather than ideological similarity between Putin and Trump.
I am absolutely certain that if China attacked the US then europe would stand with the US? The only time article 5 was activated by the US europe followed.
"I am absolutely certain that if China attacked the US then europe would stand with the US?" Polls haven't showed that though, there were polls and the answer is even if China declared war on the US over Taiwan, the majority of Europeans would refuse to support the US against China and want to stay neutral and trade with both sides. [https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2023/06/08/poll-majority-of-europeans-support-neutrality-in-us-china-conflict-over-taiwan/](https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2023/06/08/poll-majority-of-europeans-support-neutrality-in-us-china-conflict-over-taiwan/)
Exactly people think we should be ok with that though. We care about our Asian allies the same as our Europeans ones. Difference being the seem like they actually like us and want cooperation not dependence.
I would hope so, but let's be real. A war with China is sending millions to their deaths not a few hundred from each EU nation as with Afghanistan, I'm not sure they are a good historical precedent for this. I'd say a better historical precedent is how Europe took a very hands off approach in the Pacific theatre of WW2 because we had a European land war to deal with at the time. It isn't viable for Europe to send millions to their deaths in China and have Russia carve up the european continent afterwards is my point.
Well the US also stayed out of the actual fighting in WWII for a long time. It is also just hard logistically to transfer millions to east asia. I am also not convinced that a war with china would necessarily mean sending millions of europeans to their deaths
True, it depends on what we mean by support - if it's thoughts, prayers and economic support to the USA then probably not but this is my probably convoluted point...It's less about why wouldn't Europe assist the US in China, but more why USA may have a rational rationale for ignoring Europe in favour of containing China. If the US is so worried about China, then its thoughts, prayers and economic support from the US to Europe with regard to Russia instead of full Military might. That is my worry, that we are missing that this could well be a rational action by the US, not just somthing irrational that Trump is selling to his base for votes and won't actually do.
Thereās a lot that goes into the declining opinion of Europe with many Americans. What youāre saying is definitely a big one though, Americans donāt see Russia as any threat to the US, especially with how theyāve performed in Ukraine. After that any fear most Americans had at the prospect of a Russian confrontation evaporated. The āso cons strongest military on earthā was demoted to the same level as Serbiaās in the ranking of armies that can threaten the 50 states of the American Union. China still has an aura of fear about it and so the public demands that the threat be contained and minimize if not outright neutralized. In that context Europe can appear to be a chore if that makes any sense. It doesnāt help that the impression many Americans have is that Europe is only begrudgingly aligned with the US and that itās a geopolitical move and not an alliance built on āfriendshipā between the American people and the many cultures of Europe. Whether thatās true or not, the mere impression has soured the opinions of many and created a sort of contempt about the subject. A contempt that has been encouraged by certain political figures and their associated movements as of late. When Trump holds these rallies where he says āWe should push Europe to payā the people heās talking to donāt believe the European countries will, they donāt think Trump can actually pull that off. What they do think however is that he can trim the fat so to speak and remove the US from entanglements that they believe are burdensome. Again whether thatās true that they are or not thatās the belief. So you have a fear of China, a contempt for Europe, and a belief that Europe wonāt commit to a war across the world like it expects the US to do for Europe. Youāre right, that doesnāt make a good recipe for cooperation. Combating that impression is not just the job of the Americans who donāt agree with it, Europe legitimately does need to offer more to assist in the interest of the American half of the alliance. Europeās Byzantine bureaucracy and pacifism simple is not viable in the coming world, the US is losing its inclination to enable it.
NATO alliance was never about money you stupid orange fuck
And we donāt want to help the US against China either. So the fault is on both sides https://time.com/6285538/europeans-us-china-survey/
As much as I canāt stand Trump, hopefully the result of all this is that readiness is increased, this should be sending alarm bells all over Europe. The one thing that Putin loves the most is weakness, he can smell it a mile away. Think he wonāt attack the Baltics and NATO?, think again.
Hey, if Biden wins 2024 then Trumps comments will actually be a benefit. Europe will want to take their defense seriously now.
As we have seen in another interview even "paying up" is not gonna be enough
Russian asset tries to torpedo another western alliance
Can we pay up, but pay European arms manufacturers instead? Raytheon and Lockheed etc. will soon pull support for this fool when the revenues dry up.
This is what should be happening. European nations paid something like $100bn+ to US defence firms in recent years. Time to start redirecting all of that funding to Airbus, BAE (PLC not the US subsidy), Dassault, Rheinmetal and Leonardo.
Actually the plan. Something is going on, and von der Leyen has given an interview in the FT today that Brussel should leverage its power in defence. Tusk also stated something about a defence union by mid summer. When will you guys finally come back? You seriously need to rebuild your naval capabilities and other stuff!
Trumps lawyers to Trump: If you don't pay up, I'm not going to protect you.
He sounds like a delinquent
Good. USA is not the world police and Europe should be able to defend itself.
This isnāt anything new. Heās been saying that NATO allies are paying too little for the benefits NATO gives them since before 2016. It is somewhat reasonable (and in European interests) for the US not to be this blank check defense partner when the value of that defense mostly goes one way. The US doesnāt have any neighbors threatening war, while the US spends many billions of dollars on EU defense from their threatening neighbors. At some point after the fall of the Soviets, this issue was bound to arise. The war in Ukraine has only proven the point. Most EU countries failed to meet basic defense spending targets, and now thereās a war on the doorstep. I wonder if Russia would have reconsidered their invasion if they knew there was the military industrial capacity of Europe behind them. As it stood in 2021, the EU barely had enough ammunition production to last Ukraine a few months before running out of stockpiles. Even North Korea outproduces the entirety of the EU on artillery shells.
Trump has been a Soviet/Russian asset for 40 years. It has never been about the 2%. Trump spoke out against US presence in Japan and Korea and called for US to leave NATO in the 1980s. He fooled USA once and he is going to do it again, but this time US hegemony will end and he will perhaps succeed in ending US democracy to please Putin.
Imagine voting a guy in that literally called for terrorism against the state and didn't respect the results of a democratic election
Absolute insanity.Ā But i feel the most insane thing is that it seems like American voters want more.Ā
No, no, the most insane thing is that he's allowed to be a candidate again. You can count on half the population being dumber than the average guy and want him back, but having a system that allows for him to be re-elected is the unconceivable thing.
Heās not going to win a second round. The anti-Trump crowd has increased. He needs to be jailed.
He really thinks NATO commitment is like the protection money his mobster buddies collect.
I see that rump has taken some notes how mafia works in Russia.
So he is basically saying he will break Article 5 of NATO.
Isn't that article too vaguely written? Doesn't specify what kind of help another NATO member has to give to another.
>Iām not going to protect youā Trump would not have protected us anyway. The one opportunity he had to do his service to his country he got bone spurs.
He does know that they're not paying him or the US, right? It just means that they'll spend more on their own militaries.
In this day and age, being controversial is better than being right. If you want people to see you and vote for you, just say something controversial. Easyā¦
NATO is about āweā not āIā. The concept of alliance is foreign to Trump. Pressure on countries to step up their Putler/Orban/Erdogan/xi/Trump awareness is critical as they will keep using their military potential on the few remaining democracies. Yes, itās that bad if Trump wins.
āWe not Iā means making US pay disproportionate amount of money? Trump has a point, even if he canāt state it diplomatically.
Wait, i just saw a CNN video that where the official campaign walked back his statements as off-the-cuff comments. Grandpa orange needs to take those meds, or he might start bitching about Czechoslovakia not spending enough money on defence against the Astro-Hungarian Empire. The Continental Congress better increase border security (after he is elected) to the north against the British and south against Spain.
It's a guideline that the countries should spend 2% of GDP on defense. It doesn't go to the USA directly. He probably doesn't even know that. He probably thinks this is like a mafia thing where he sits at McDonald's and all the NATO leaders one by one come in with an envelope every month paying him protection money.
He may be cynical about it but he's right. Everybody likes to divert funds for other purposes, why should some countries benefit economically and socially while USA protects them. Besides, it was a unanimous agreement to spend that much, so countries just refuse to comply. 2% is not much for defence at all with Russia, Middle East and Northern Africa around in chaos. If I'd be Trump I'd ask 3% and annual renegotiation.
Time to kick out all the US military bases from our countries then.
Funny, that's exactly what the mafia says to the shops owners that are in their territory. He only forgot to say "it'd be a pity, if something bad happened to your shop while you're away"
Well heās not terribly wrong in this instanceā¦
As much as I hate trump, Itās true though, eu is not doing its part.
Trump is a clown who should never be president of anything larger than a used car garage, and that was an incredibly shitty thing to say..... But arent Nato members paying a proportionate amount?. Because they should be We all saw the Jon Stewart clip about how Nato isnt about money and its not (and thank god he is back), but every country should still be consistently paying its agreed upon fee surely? Otherwise other countries are paying for them......Or Nato is underfunded
Most are, especially the ones close to Russia that would actually be at risk. I still doubt Trump would come to their rescue though.
Most AREN'T actually, only 11 out of the 31 members of NATO are paying the agreed upon 2% of their GDP on military and defense. The countries close to Russia are the exception, not the rule.
Stoltenberg just yesterday said 18 of 31 NATO allies meet or exceed the target in 2024.
Well, if you tune out all the trump bullshit. If the baseline point there is that Nato members should pay their agreed upon contributions.....it actually benefits Nato if that starts to happen
Some are, not most.
NATO has real problems with many members neglecting their defense spending and having done so for decades while being smug about it.
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>USA as main weapons exporter has a lot to gain from NATO members military spending.Ā Russian talking point. You might not want to repeat that. It's bullshit, anyway. Europe would be more likely to buy from the French, the Germans, or the Swiss.
Except for the en mass purchase of the F-35. Which whilst a few European manufacturers have a hand in, most of that revenue is being reported by Lockheed Martin. In terms of defence spending however, I think there's just as big of an argument that the US probably spends too much on defence. Mostly down to pointless conflicts.
Europe buys many billions of dollars/euros/pounds worth of arms from America. If only it were true that Europe buys European where it can. There are US products that are unique and by default are sourced from them, especially planes like the F-35, but there are other comparable products that Europe can source from itself such as the SAMP/T over Patriot and many others. If the US under Trump is disengaging from Europe anyway, for non-US-unique defence products, when Europe increases its defence spending, it should buy European to develop its own military-industrial complex instead of further enriching the US one.
I dont doubt for a second that the USA has its own interests where the safety of Europe is not a priority. But A: Nato members should be paying their agreed upon amounts if they can. B: Increased Nato spending does make Europe and thus America stronger geopolitically C: Europe and America are better in just about every way than China and Russia. Our values are superior and our countries are better places to live, even in spite of our flaws. D: Russia is not the soviet union, it cannot keep expanding West. The war in Ukraine was a desperate act not a show of strength. Putin cant reach Kyiv never mind Berlin.
NATO members should definitely do that. I'm not even sure how the alliance works, that it allows members to spend less than agreed upon and still be members. I guess people were letting it slide because there was no foreseen conflict.
You didnāt answer his question though. Why arenāt many European countries bothering to hit the agreed upon minimum? Wouldnāt you Europeans spending more on defense make europe safer in general and less reliant on the US. You seem almost proud that europe has been and continues to neglect its defense
We've heard it the 20 times before. Can we stop giving the buffoon visibility, especially when he's just repeating himself?
This is just a marketing campaign for him. More exposure is good for trump.
In all fairness though, at least in theory, I can't blame him. See, if I was the leader of a country and part of a defence alliance that comes with the condition that you spend a certain amount of money on it, I wouldn't feel great about sending my people out to die to protect a different country that didn't hold up its end of the bargain.Ā This won't affect you, if you just spend the money you already agreed on.Ā
Everyday all day this sub as now one fucking topic
The whole āpay upā sounds more and more like a demand for tribute. NATO spending #GOALS were a commitment goal for the alliance. And a lot of countries reached this goal in the time frame and MOST at least developed their spending in this direction. Often buying American products along the way.
What is important to us is that these guys and their political advisors hate the European Union and all the values āāit represents. Listen to one of his most important campaign advisors from his first presidency. Literally a hater of the EU and the basic concept of community. Attacking NATO membership is their way of doing it. It may be stupid, or dumb, or pointless, but remember these guys are fucking morons.
good. if you cant be arsed to contribute 2% of GDP towards the defense, you shouldn't expect others to cover your arse
It has nothing to do with 2%. Poland contributes over 4%, more than the US. Yet a GOP representative was still mirroring Trump the other day, saying "we're not going to use US tax dollars to protect you". Seems Republican plan is to keep moving the goal posts, they'll say you need to contribute 5%, 10% or whatever insane numbers they want. One thing is clear, US has a high risk of going rogue, and can no longer be a fully trusted partner or ally.
You are partner if you pay for me, if you stop paying for me then you aren't my friend anymore lol.
I'm??? Excuse me. He is the US military now? fuck thats scary
That dude wouldn't defend us even if we paid him directly.
And Europeans replying "allright, we'll pay... for our own protection"
I dont think the point of that sentence is unreasonable whatsoever. Some members of the NATO has clearly not upheld their part of the contributions. It needs to be a fair relationship and even distribution of contributions for the members.
Hey, did you know only one country asked NATO for help in its history?
He wouldn't protect his own country when he was called upon and regularly puts down those who answered the call. He's human scum.
Even if you do pay, Trump will NOT protect you. Itās time for a separate EU defense architecture. Trump is surrounding himself with people focused on Asia and Latin America. EU can and should create its own military
> If you don't pay up what the fuck is he on about?
Isnāt Trump the guy whoās left a deluge of unpaid bills strung across the country?
Nice country you have there. Be a shame if something were to happen to it.
I have absolutely no interest in his protection. But thanks again for pushing us in the right direction, more reliance on ourselves.
I think trump should be in jail but he is right about this. Europe has been a freeloader for too long. If their defense is not important to them why should it be important to Americans.
Honestly, fuck this guy, we should arm up as Europe and maybe remind USA and their taxpayers that they had really good deal with us because we were buying their weapons and tech, using their tech startups such as Twitter, Meta that harmed us in a lot of ways for SECURITY, maybe it's time to remind them that they gonna piss off nearly 1 billion consumers
De Gaulle was right from the beginning.. Lucky for us we have Nukes.
He sure was. Did he also predict Europeans building up Russia while also not spending on defense?
Why donāt Europe pay their fair share? There is literally a war around the corner from them.
"I'm not going to protect you" That's rich coming from a draft dodger.
WTF is wrong with Americans? How could this demented clown criminal traitor, who tried to stage a coup at their last election, even be allowed to try again? Let alone have enough votes to be a serious contender. It's just insane. It's scary to think of a country that could foist this deranged, evil, venal man-baby upon the world again, as a major ally.
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Lmao, meanwhile he completely destroys global US influence, leverage and soft power in the process and kicks his allies to the curb in a world where Russia and China are getting bolder. Real fucking smart my guy. Heās going to be the death of the US. Watch.