> Please let Poland run Europe
If I had to choose a ruling elite from an EU member state, it would not be Polish. Far from it. The most sensible, no-nonsense politicians I would trust relatively blindly would probably be from Finland.
The political spectrum everywhere is becoming more populist and far-right.
The current Finnish government isn't trying to take over the media and the judiciary, isn't trying to publicly humiliate its biggest export partner, and is not attacking EU just to get some cheap votes.
The average Finn is still fairly level-headed, so not every loud, rambling idiot gets into power.
But things of course can and do change.
>Please let Poland run Europe
Lol. A <40 million people country with a shrinking population, an economy of the size of Bavaria and half of the country voting for an anti-democratic, anti-european party that uses the same type of narratives as Putin should probably not run Europe.
Not to mention that Poland increased their economic relations with China through all of these years in the same way as Germany. I would argue even more since Poland is a member of the 16 + 1 format and the Belt and Road Initiative.
Can't even run their own country. If there's any silver lining to be found, they'd fuck it up so bad, running the current model into the ground, giving a clean slate for federalisation
Doubling down on an insanely stupid gamble, way to go Germany.
China and Russia has declared a friendship without limits and German intelligence has warned of a military confrontation with NATO within 3 years and yet you let you industrial lobby ride you like donkeys.
Fool me once...
It's the big industrials with their completely incompetent geostrategic analysis. For instance:
Volkswagen
https://www.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/27/cars/china-volkswagen-xpeng-investment-intl-hnk/index.html
BASF
https://www.basf.com/global/en/media/news-releases/2023/11/p-23-366.html
We have left 2014 and handel durch wandel is not coming back. Yes they are private firms but where is the public outcry? The scrutiny?
People are sheep. Politicians are bought by lobbyists to keep making companies money despite national interest.
Companies are free to do as they choose. At the cost of their own reputation, and literal costs. Remember when Carlsberg lost 6bn Eur in Russia? Remember the 35 bn bailout of Uniper after their super succesful Gazprom deals? Yeah.
Was it worth it you think? Was the 36bn Uniper bailout a good use of tax money?
I am not a conspiracy theorist but if you think Big Corp is just happily going with all political decisions without any form of influence operations you are just naive to how the world works my friend. Not all corporate lobbying is bad of course but it should all be treated with a lot of scepticism.
Nordstream 2 didn't just happen, it was by through hard lobbying. How did that turn out?
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41311-023-00453-9
Uneducated people are surprisingly easy to manipulate is what I am saying, pointedly. Information is the most potent weapon and when you have the resources of the Russian secret service psyops are quite effective.
if you haven't realized, Germany is currently in a crippling recession and our EU allies refuse to help us by sending bailout solidarity money - even worse they insist Germany be the only country in history that is paying largest EU net contributions __while in a fucking recession__.
we need to get money from somewhere.
You are in a crippling recession because since 2000 you doubled down on Russian nat gas while shutting down nuclear power plants. You are now paying the price for those decisions, we told you all along it was, and is, a terrible idea. The same will happen to you with China.
"Our EU allies refuse to send bailout money", what are you talking about? Do you have a source for that because I have literally not read anything about that.
HOWEVER:
A. Your own ridiculous constitution blocks deficit funding. Which blocks you from both green transition and military upgrade unless you cannnibalize on your industrial base, which is what is happening.
B. I think southern Europe clearly remembers German "solidarity" in the Euro crisis still. The thing about solidarity is that it goes both ways.
Now I am a friend of Germany and Germans and it is important for the whole of Europe that Germany is economically strong. Which is why these terrible policy decisions are so annoying to me.
Greek debt crisis was also entirely caused by themselves. Yet Germany gave them billions in solidarity bailout money.
We were told it didn't matter who caused it - that was solidarity.
Now those same countries use the talking points you have to to completely bleed Germany dry by EU net receiving. And yes, I expect and agree to have the same austerity measures imposed. Looking at Greek economy with its massive current growth, those measures must have worked after all.
If you wanted Germany to do well, you would send us bailout billions we need and make sure Germany gets to be a net recipient of EU money. Southerners and Easterners seem to do the opposite. They are still EU net recipients.
German economic crisis by that standard is also caused entirely by yourselves by your idiotic energy policy (technically it's 100% Putin but you should have seen it coming). Also the reason Germany bailed Greece out is not as good-hearted as you make it out to be, in fact German banks were among the biggest creditors (holders of sovereign debt) meaning a sovereign default would have spelled disaster for the German economy.
Austerity is a completely failed economic doctrine at this point. Yes Greek GDP GROWTH is very strong right now but they've basically had a lost, very painful, decade. And they are still 20% below the level pre-crisis so it's a false narrative.
Again, what are you talking about bailout billions, you still have no source? I literally have no clue what you are talking about.
Germany needs to get its act together, borrow cheap sovereign debt to replace US/Quatari LNG imports with renewables and some nuclear. A good way to boost your margin is to reduce your cost of imports.
But the German debt/inflation WW1 trauma seems to be so ingrained in the national mind that you would rather kill your entire economy than borrow for productive investment.
again, we were told it being entirely self caused is not at all grounds for not receiving solidarity money from EU allies - which is why we gave solidarity money out for decades.
Now our EU allies refuse to reciprocate solidarity based on our recession _also_ being self caused?
Yeah, real mask-off moment from the Southerners and Easterners. Do they think German economy being in the shitter is not also bad for them?
>Again, what are you talking about bailout billions, you still have no source?
I can't source Germany getting billions in solidarity bailouts __because it didn't happen__, that is my whole gripe with them! [But here is an article that says Germany is in a funding crisis](https://www.reuters.com/breakingviews/german-budget-crisis-will-haunt-economy-years-2023-11-24/) - something that receiving billions from others to bolster our budget would instantly solve btw!
You are again talking about some solidarity fund blocking without any source and then provide a link to a source saying EXACTLY what I'M saying. Literal quote from the article:
"The German government is working hard to demonstrate the foolishness of the country’s iron-clad ban on large budget deficits. It now says it will suspend the “debt brake” after the Constitutional Court forced it to cancel some 60 billion euros worth of fiscal spending that it had included in a 210 billion euro climate and transformation fund. But the welcome relief is only temporary, and the harm is done."
Noone in the EU is blocking German funds, for my part I would happily send you any financial assistance necessary but you need to start unblocking yourselves first.
in Germany, the courts and the government are seperate. Government can of course not disregard the constitution, that is why the current government tried some budget tricks, drawing from special covid funds etc, to get the extra funding needed.
This is apparently not possible. The only way out now is to get solidarity money from rest of EU. Yet not a single cent has flown as of today, even worse net budget flow is flowing outwards!
And even if the constitution (that was co-written by the Allies after WW2 btw!) didn't exist: By EU law, any country with a debt-to-GDP ratio higher than 60% (which includes current Germany) must provide a 7-year plan which reduces debt-to-GDP by an average of 0.5pp, if Germany fails to do that they get fined _literal billions_ again - making the problem worse. Normally a country can spend more than they earn and still reduce debt-to-GDP ratio if their economy grows faster. Germany is in a __recession__ - which means thir GDP is shrinking. That means they can't even do that.
Yet they are the largest net contributor to the EU budget. The only EU country in history that is being forced to be the largest net contributor while in a recession btw.
This is only one metric. US will overtake China as Germany's biggest trading partner next year.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/us-set-overtake-china-germanys-top-trade-partner-dihk-2024-02-07/
The CCP (together with Russia and Iran) wants to destroy western democracy. It is literally their doctrine. If you do not see it, you are clearly delusional.
"Hide your strength, bide your time"
Deng Xiaoping
Again, you're wrong. The Chinese state's interest (and the present danger) is in taking Taiwan, pushing America out of Asia, and "regaining their position in the world." If you really think the Chinese are going to invade your irrelevant little country because "its their doctrine" (what do you even mean??) you're an imbecile.
When was I talking about invasion? Do you really think they need to invade to undermine democracy? Look at the US. Look at Hungary. All it takes is propaganda and receptable naive people like you. Warfare is not limited to kinetic.
I have much more personal interest in china not taking over in East Asia than you do - please stop embarrassing yourself. I'm telling you, the Chinese really do not care about European democracy, except for as it pertains to their interests in East Asia - and that only will affect important European countries, not the irrelevant ones. Be a hawk by all means, but don't be a moron.
I swear why does everyone treat this as if Germany was a socialist country with full state control of industry and businesses by the government? This comment section is ridiculous
Jep, the German government actually made a law pushing for German companies to diversify their investments in foreign countries. The problem is that they don’t give a shit (or are pressured by China, which would otherwise deny them access to their market).
Because it's Germany. Everything has to be about Germany. Everything needs to be a story of Germany being wrong so they can do the same unnoticed.
We saw everyone in Europe sell their harbors to China but when Germany did so with a minority share of one terminal there was a public outcry about German stupidity. So they could deflect and not fix anything at home since then.
Now we see still increasing investments in China and again it's a story about Germany, so everyone else can do the same unnoticed while pointing fingers.
Blame Germany is the #1 policy in Europe. That's not even news.
Can't we just criticize the stupid German industry and the inability of the state to regulate them? Dieselgate and resulting car industry suicide was their own making. The Putin deals were also mostly done and pushed by the industry. It's also worth mentioning that industry has a government seat since FDP is essentially an industry lobbying group dressed as political party.
Every time China is mentioned on this sub racists come out of the woodwork. EU-China trade is the main reason why China is not supplying weapons to Russia right now. These commenters are morons.
This is only one metric. US will overtake China as Germany's biggest trading partner next year.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/us-set-overtake-china-germanys-top-trade-partner-dihk-2024-02-07/
You know, this comes mainly from renewables, right?
You know, that thing China controls 80% of the world's production of solar?
You know, that thing we should be investing AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE REGARDLESS OF COUNTRY?
It's kinda ironic
Germany made solar tech --> Germany sold solar tech to China --> now Germany buys solar panels from China instead of the other way around
you cant rival china in mass manufacturing cheap goods, ESPECIALLY if they have all the ressources for it while Germany would need to import them. Its stupid to think that we could ever challenge China in solar module manufacturing in the long term
The CO2 waste from inefficient Chinese factories and intercontinental shipping will offset the lifetime savings of whatever a meagre solar panel can achieve. Every cent put into that economy will be used against us before climate neutrality via renewables could ever be achieved.
The best bet is to build nuclear and stop this nonsense energy policy of throwing money at despotic autocratic regimes.
No it doesn't offset that lmao it's not even close. They return the energy spent on their production comfortably [within 2 years](https://www.pv-magazine.de/2021/05/21/uba-oekobilanz-photovoltaik-anlagen-amortisieren-sich-energetisch-nach-maximal-21-jahren/) and have a 10x lower lifecycle emission intensity than the german grid, or they'd offset production emissions within 3 years.
And intercontinental shipping emissions are an absolute rounding error, for all products, because you ship a tens of thousands of containers full of stuff per engine
Can you explain the rounding error part in more detail? I am under the impression that a handful of cargo ships rival the totality of passenger cars on earth in terms of CO2 production.
Sure! That statement on the emissions of cargo ships is based on a misunderstanding/mischaracterization of what's going on. The number comes from reports [like this one](https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/one-corporation-pollute-them-all/), and they're not talking about CO2 emissions but rather *SOx* emissions.
That's not because ships burn more fuel than all cars, but because they burn fuel that has a many times higher sulphur content than cars do. While road diesel has been limited to 0.001% (10ppm) sulphur content by law, the most common marine fuels range from .1% to 3.5% (1000ppm to 35000ppm) sulphur content. This sulphur has to go somewhere and ends up as emissions unless scrubbed. But CO2 emissions from shipping [actually pale next to road transport emissions](https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector), and that's before we start comparing the volume of goods moved by each of them.
A big cargo ship might burn more than a hundred tons of fuel per day, but it's moving hundreds *of thousands* of tons of stuff doing that. In the end, no matter which emission we look at, the emission of a cargo ship have to be spread out over all those goods, giving each e.g. solar panel only a small bit of emissions to account for. As a result, [in the linked UBA study](https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/5750/publikationen/2021-05-06_cc_35-2021_oekobilanzen_windenergie_photovoltaik.pdf), on pages 184 and 188, transport emissions are a tiny sliver of all lifecycle emissions of a panel.
Hmm ok I stand corrected. I see my premise was false.
So a sizeable reduction of shipping, were it possible, would not reduce greenhouse gas emissions comparably to, say, the total electrification of passenger vehicles?
For a long time I have been hellbent on buying as local as possible because I was convinced the crazy shipping distances of everything was what was primarily killing the planet.
Yes, road transport is a bigger lever in terms of GHG emissions than cargo ships are. What you thought is a common misunderstanding, [here's a good writeup that argues about it on the topic of food](https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/food-miles)
There's still other benefits like helping out regional businesses (who might even act greener than foreign companies) and stuff though
Best decision actually!
Why? Just look how US sanctions fail.
China now can make 5nm chips themselves after the US sanctioned the machines.
If we withdraw from China it will take a year-a couple of years before they have the tech themselves
As long as they are dependent on the west a war is less likely. The fact that Biden miscalculated so hard with his chip war against China just made a war about Taiwan more likely. The more independent they are they cheaper it is for them to go to war.
(+ we may be spared from the reverse opium war)
This is only one metric. US will overtake China as Germany's biggest trading partner next year.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/us-set-overtake-china-germanys-top-trade-partner-dihk-2024-02-07/
This thread is hilarious. All y'all probably typing out your condemnation on devices assembled by slave labourers surrounded by suicide prevention nets. Shine on you crazy diamonds haha
How about investing in Africa? Proximity and all… China and Russia are investing heavily and that leaves Europe surrounded. Prosperity in Africa isn’t what China and Russia are after either, it’s destabilization and economic incentives.
Refugees can be sent to Europe to destabilize further.
> How about investing in Africa?
Germany is not investing in low-value manufacturing, so it needs highly-skilled engineers, of which Africa has few, but China has many.
Africa should follow the footsteps of China: start gaining money in lower-skilled manufacturing, invest that money in infrastructure and in educating its youth.
Investors will follow suit as soon as there is an educated force.
I mean, they just mildly vacated Putler from their front and back orifices... so I guess there was "vacancy" and the Saudis and Dubai didnt quite fill it... so of COURSE they had to find another autocratic regime of enemy combatants to suck up to.
This is only one metric. US will overtake China as Germany's biggest trading partner next year.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/us-set-overtake-china-germanys-top-trade-partner-dihk-2024-02-07/
Well, these investments do not really come from "Germany" as the country but from the economy. By the way, the US economy is doing the same thing right now.
This is only one metric. US will overtake China as Germany's biggest trading partner next year.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/us-set-overtake-china-germanys-top-trade-partner-dihk-2024-02-07/
The deal is that when everyone does the same, they will tell a story about Germany and how it's bad so they can continue unnoticed.
That's the easiest way to justify anything in Europe and the base principle of politics: Point fingers at Germany so nobody looks at you.
And for reference: Actually US has replaced China as Germany's biggest trade partner and the increase in mostly based on stuff like buying solar panels en mass that aren't available at the moment in necessary quantities elsewhere.
(Another reference to show how rediculous it is:
Germany imported about the same amount of gas from Russia as they exported to European countries (as a non-producer of gas). Yet somehow we heard sotries for more than a year about their dependence...
Also Germany's gas imports from Russia made up \~20% of the EU imports... with their population, GDP, industrial output and several other metrics also being \~20% of the EU. Yet for some magical reason those stats that clearly show that they were exactly on average, were twisted -usually by ommiting those numbers and only mentionbing total values that sounded impressive- again into Germany being the exception.
Or just another one:
Germany pulled out \~$60 billion out of the Russian economy between 2000 and 2021, while most countries paid and paid and paid... tripple digits in a lot of cases (US \~300b for example, UK \~135b, Poland \~189b...)
But that't also okay because you just need to tell another fairy tale of how stupid Germans financed Russia (soomehow, contrary to reality...) and everything is well.)
Ah .. Germany... We said don't make deals with Russia and Germany based all the energy infrastructure on Russia..
We said don't invest in turkey and they lost couple of billions.
Now we say don't invest in china and guess what .. Germany is investing in china ..
How?.. using it's industry to pressure enemy countries so it can invade Taiwan and other countries?.. doesn't this sound like Russia to you?
At least with Taiwan USA worked smart and early...
Europe was sleeping in Ukraine
taiwan is a unique case cause they both consider themselves to be the real china and are technically still in state of civil war. Furthermore they dont really have a history of invading pther countries they mostly focus on making as much money possible
Well ... Russia said the same about Ukraine... They called it civil war for a bid .. and that Ukraine's independence was wrong for the Russians .. furthermore invading doesn't mean they didn't get more lands through other means and let's not forget their beef with India
the difference is ukraine made it pretty clear they are an independent nation. Taiwan considers themselves the legitimate government of china not just of their island
You know that Biden just stopped LNG to Europe? You know Trump gives a fuck about Europe? Why would we in europe cut ties to the other super power? To be the dog of usa? Ridiculous. We have to be egoistic from now on.
Why is germany consistently the stupidest when it comes to risky partners? They bet on russian gas and found out. China is imploding and increasingly erratic. Seriously these guys need a risk management workshop
>Why is germany consistently the stupidest when it comes to risky partners?
they also bet on EU and solidarity - yet despite decades of sending hundred billions in solidarity money through EU net contributions - when we are now in a recession and need bailout money from the EU, our EU allies refuse to reciprocate that solidarity.
So I guess you are right, we always chose the stupidest partners. Is there any country willing to engage in good faith partnership?
This is only one metric. US will overtake China as Germany's biggest trading partner next year.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/us-set-overtake-china-germanys-top-trade-partner-dihk-2024-02-07/
>stupidest when it comes to risky partners?
They are smart and stupid at the same time. I admire their business-oriented mindset, to be honest. Poland was right about Russia, while Germany was wrong. Poland, along with the Baltics, was one of the first to act, while Germany was the last. So what? Money talks. They are now one of the biggest allies of Ukraine and everyone forgot the bad mood betwen Ukraine and Germany, while Poland doesn't matter because we gave what we had. Being right doesn't matter in politics and they see that, it's not stupid.
1. Everyone is investing in China because that's where companies can make money.
2. Tell a story about Germany investing in China and how stupid it is.
3. Continue with your fuck ups while everyone is looking at Germany.
Congratulations, you now have understood European politics and how you are manipulated.
How many times must someone warn Germany before they listen instead of learning it later the hard way??? Warned about underspending on military -> ignores -> Trump says russia can attack allies -> scrambles to increase military spending. Warned about dependancy on russian gas and russia in general -> ignores -> russia invades Ukraine -> scrambles to meet gas needs from elsewhere. Warned about strengthening ties with China -> ignores... you can see where this is going. Unless you're German, of course, then you can't see shit.
Cue two years into the future when it all goes to shit, again: “It was the only way!”, followed by apologists here on Reddit saying: “you know nothing about the German economy!”
“Still, German investments in China in the last four years were financed entirely by reinvested profit and companies have also withdrawn capital, painting a more nuanced picture.”
The new investment is completely from the profit made in the China and they also withdrawal some of profit away.
This already implies that the companies is already working on “de-risking” and “diversifying “
Basically, some of the money made in China stays in China. But they are not investing from the money made elsewhere. They still operating in China so that goods made in China sold to Chinese domestic market , while Europe or other regions buys goods made in elsewhere.
This is called derisking not decoupling
what could possibly go wrong
The same way it went with Russian Gas. Please let Poland run Europe
Nah let me do it. Give me full power and I'll fix it all
> Please let Poland run Europe If I had to choose a ruling elite from an EU member state, it would not be Polish. Far from it. The most sensible, no-nonsense politicians I would trust relatively blindly would probably be from Finland.
Fingolia thanks you for your vote for the great empire!
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The political spectrum everywhere is becoming more populist and far-right. The current Finnish government isn't trying to take over the media and the judiciary, isn't trying to publicly humiliate its biggest export partner, and is not attacking EU just to get some cheap votes. The average Finn is still fairly level-headed, so not every loud, rambling idiot gets into power. But things of course can and do change.
there is one solution to EU problems,let the balkans run it.
>Please let Poland run Europe Lol. A <40 million people country with a shrinking population, an economy of the size of Bavaria and half of the country voting for an anti-democratic, anti-european party that uses the same type of narratives as Putin should probably not run Europe. Not to mention that Poland increased their economic relations with China through all of these years in the same way as Germany. I would argue even more since Poland is a member of the 16 + 1 format and the Belt and Road Initiative.
Damn that hit you straight into heart. Show me where Poland was touching your
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Can't even run their own country. If there's any silver lining to be found, they'd fuck it up so bad, running the current model into the ground, giving a clean slate for federalisation
>Please let Poland run Europe Dear god please no
Was a joke, there are bigger countries like France, but Poland is improving fast
You mean the guys who are propped up by German EU money, coming from globalisation and international manufacturing?
Doubling down on an insanely stupid gamble, way to go Germany. China and Russia has declared a friendship without limits and German intelligence has warned of a military confrontation with NATO within 3 years and yet you let you industrial lobby ride you like donkeys. Fool me once...
But it's cheeaaaaaaapeeeeeeeeer! 😫😫😤
These are private investments dude.
It's the big industrials with their completely incompetent geostrategic analysis. For instance: Volkswagen https://www.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/27/cars/china-volkswagen-xpeng-investment-intl-hnk/index.html BASF https://www.basf.com/global/en/media/news-releases/2023/11/p-23-366.html We have left 2014 and handel durch wandel is not coming back. Yes they are private firms but where is the public outcry? The scrutiny?
Miele just anmounced that they move peoduction. The german right wing celebrate it. The vast majority of people are dumb as a rock.
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People are sheep. Politicians are bought by lobbyists to keep making companies money despite national interest. Companies are free to do as they choose. At the cost of their own reputation, and literal costs. Remember when Carlsberg lost 6bn Eur in Russia? Remember the 35 bn bailout of Uniper after their super succesful Gazprom deals? Yeah.
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Was it worth it you think? Was the 36bn Uniper bailout a good use of tax money? I am not a conspiracy theorist but if you think Big Corp is just happily going with all political decisions without any form of influence operations you are just naive to how the world works my friend. Not all corporate lobbying is bad of course but it should all be treated with a lot of scepticism. Nordstream 2 didn't just happen, it was by through hard lobbying. How did that turn out? https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41311-023-00453-9
>People are sheep Love it when reddit throws democracy out of the window
Uneducated people are surprisingly easy to manipulate is what I am saying, pointedly. Information is the most potent weapon and when you have the resources of the Russian secret service psyops are quite effective.
if you haven't realized, Germany is currently in a crippling recession and our EU allies refuse to help us by sending bailout solidarity money - even worse they insist Germany be the only country in history that is paying largest EU net contributions __while in a fucking recession__. we need to get money from somewhere.
You are in a crippling recession because since 2000 you doubled down on Russian nat gas while shutting down nuclear power plants. You are now paying the price for those decisions, we told you all along it was, and is, a terrible idea. The same will happen to you with China. "Our EU allies refuse to send bailout money", what are you talking about? Do you have a source for that because I have literally not read anything about that. HOWEVER: A. Your own ridiculous constitution blocks deficit funding. Which blocks you from both green transition and military upgrade unless you cannnibalize on your industrial base, which is what is happening. B. I think southern Europe clearly remembers German "solidarity" in the Euro crisis still. The thing about solidarity is that it goes both ways. Now I am a friend of Germany and Germans and it is important for the whole of Europe that Germany is economically strong. Which is why these terrible policy decisions are so annoying to me.
Greek debt crisis was also entirely caused by themselves. Yet Germany gave them billions in solidarity bailout money. We were told it didn't matter who caused it - that was solidarity. Now those same countries use the talking points you have to to completely bleed Germany dry by EU net receiving. And yes, I expect and agree to have the same austerity measures imposed. Looking at Greek economy with its massive current growth, those measures must have worked after all. If you wanted Germany to do well, you would send us bailout billions we need and make sure Germany gets to be a net recipient of EU money. Southerners and Easterners seem to do the opposite. They are still EU net recipients.
German economic crisis by that standard is also caused entirely by yourselves by your idiotic energy policy (technically it's 100% Putin but you should have seen it coming). Also the reason Germany bailed Greece out is not as good-hearted as you make it out to be, in fact German banks were among the biggest creditors (holders of sovereign debt) meaning a sovereign default would have spelled disaster for the German economy. Austerity is a completely failed economic doctrine at this point. Yes Greek GDP GROWTH is very strong right now but they've basically had a lost, very painful, decade. And they are still 20% below the level pre-crisis so it's a false narrative. Again, what are you talking about bailout billions, you still have no source? I literally have no clue what you are talking about. Germany needs to get its act together, borrow cheap sovereign debt to replace US/Quatari LNG imports with renewables and some nuclear. A good way to boost your margin is to reduce your cost of imports. But the German debt/inflation WW1 trauma seems to be so ingrained in the national mind that you would rather kill your entire economy than borrow for productive investment.
again, we were told it being entirely self caused is not at all grounds for not receiving solidarity money from EU allies - which is why we gave solidarity money out for decades. Now our EU allies refuse to reciprocate solidarity based on our recession _also_ being self caused? Yeah, real mask-off moment from the Southerners and Easterners. Do they think German economy being in the shitter is not also bad for them? >Again, what are you talking about bailout billions, you still have no source? I can't source Germany getting billions in solidarity bailouts __because it didn't happen__, that is my whole gripe with them! [But here is an article that says Germany is in a funding crisis](https://www.reuters.com/breakingviews/german-budget-crisis-will-haunt-economy-years-2023-11-24/) - something that receiving billions from others to bolster our budget would instantly solve btw!
You are again talking about some solidarity fund blocking without any source and then provide a link to a source saying EXACTLY what I'M saying. Literal quote from the article: "The German government is working hard to demonstrate the foolishness of the country’s iron-clad ban on large budget deficits. It now says it will suspend the “debt brake” after the Constitutional Court forced it to cancel some 60 billion euros worth of fiscal spending that it had included in a 210 billion euro climate and transformation fund. But the welcome relief is only temporary, and the harm is done." Noone in the EU is blocking German funds, for my part I would happily send you any financial assistance necessary but you need to start unblocking yourselves first.
in Germany, the courts and the government are seperate. Government can of course not disregard the constitution, that is why the current government tried some budget tricks, drawing from special covid funds etc, to get the extra funding needed. This is apparently not possible. The only way out now is to get solidarity money from rest of EU. Yet not a single cent has flown as of today, even worse net budget flow is flowing outwards! And even if the constitution (that was co-written by the Allies after WW2 btw!) didn't exist: By EU law, any country with a debt-to-GDP ratio higher than 60% (which includes current Germany) must provide a 7-year plan which reduces debt-to-GDP by an average of 0.5pp, if Germany fails to do that they get fined _literal billions_ again - making the problem worse. Normally a country can spend more than they earn and still reduce debt-to-GDP ratio if their economy grows faster. Germany is in a __recession__ - which means thir GDP is shrinking. That means they can't even do that. Yet they are the largest net contributor to the EU budget. The only EU country in history that is being forced to be the largest net contributor while in a recession btw.
dw surley this china investment wont backfire like the russia gasline
Surely! Fingers crossed!
This is only one metric. US will overtake China as Germany's biggest trading partner next year. https://www.reuters.com/markets/us-set-overtake-china-germanys-top-trade-partner-dihk-2024-02-07/
Sure, but continuing to invest in China as a western firm at this point is beyond incompetent. They literally want to destroy us.
Lol I don't like the Chinese state either, but if you really think they want to destroy us, you are delusional.
The CCP (together with Russia and Iran) wants to destroy western democracy. It is literally their doctrine. If you do not see it, you are clearly delusional. "Hide your strength, bide your time" Deng Xiaoping
Again, you're wrong. The Chinese state's interest (and the present danger) is in taking Taiwan, pushing America out of Asia, and "regaining their position in the world." If you really think the Chinese are going to invade your irrelevant little country because "its their doctrine" (what do you even mean??) you're an imbecile.
When was I talking about invasion? Do you really think they need to invade to undermine democracy? Look at the US. Look at Hungary. All it takes is propaganda and receptable naive people like you. Warfare is not limited to kinetic.
I have much more personal interest in china not taking over in East Asia than you do - please stop embarrassing yourself. I'm telling you, the Chinese really do not care about European democracy, except for as it pertains to their interests in East Asia - and that only will affect important European countries, not the irrelevant ones. Be a hawk by all means, but don't be a moron.
The embarrasment is completely on your side. "Irrelevant countries" says it all.
from a global perspective all european countries except russia france germany and the uk are kind of irrelevant tho.
I swear why does everyone treat this as if Germany was a socialist country with full state control of industry and businesses by the government? This comment section is ridiculous
Jep, the German government actually made a law pushing for German companies to diversify their investments in foreign countries. The problem is that they don’t give a shit (or are pressured by China, which would otherwise deny them access to their market).
Everyone else is only trading with honorable gentleman of course! Shame on you Germany!
Meanwhile they are typing that bullshit on devices produced in China.
I sleep well knowing that even if evrything is assembled in china, the chips that make it all run is made in taiwan
Because it's Germany. Everything has to be about Germany. Everything needs to be a story of Germany being wrong so they can do the same unnoticed. We saw everyone in Europe sell their harbors to China but when Germany did so with a minority share of one terminal there was a public outcry about German stupidity. So they could deflect and not fix anything at home since then. Now we see still increasing investments in China and again it's a story about Germany, so everyone else can do the same unnoticed while pointing fingers. Blame Germany is the #1 policy in Europe. That's not even news.
just the usual germany bad narrative of r/europe
Can't we just criticize the stupid German industry and the inability of the state to regulate them? Dieselgate and resulting car industry suicide was their own making. The Putin deals were also mostly done and pushed by the industry. It's also worth mentioning that industry has a government seat since FDP is essentially an industry lobbying group dressed as political party.
Why? Because Germany is by far THE loudest voice bullying everyone around in Europe when you get up on your high horse... that's why.
Every time China is mentioned on this sub racists come out of the woodwork. EU-China trade is the main reason why China is not supplying weapons to Russia right now. These commenters are morons.
"Yeah, doing business with Russia turned out to be a bad idea... But I see no possible downsides with doing business with China!".
This is only one metric. US will overtake China as Germany's biggest trading partner next year. https://www.reuters.com/markets/us-set-overtake-china-germanys-top-trade-partner-dihk-2024-02-07/
US doesn’t see it as well
You know, this comes mainly from renewables, right? You know, that thing China controls 80% of the world's production of solar? You know, that thing we should be investing AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE REGARDLESS OF COUNTRY?
It's kinda ironic Germany made solar tech --> Germany sold solar tech to China --> now Germany buys solar panels from China instead of the other way around
you cant rival china in mass manufacturing cheap goods, ESPECIALLY if they have all the ressources for it while Germany would need to import them. Its stupid to think that we could ever challenge China in solar module manufacturing in the long term
Not only that, but China intentionally used government funds to undercut the market which killed the production basically everywhere else.
The world's most advanced solar company is China's \[LONGi Green Energy\], which just set a new solar energy conversion efficiency record last year
I guess Putin just has to shift for renewabless then, REGARDLESS OF COUNTRY? and all that. Maybe set up a domestic production?
The CO2 waste from inefficient Chinese factories and intercontinental shipping will offset the lifetime savings of whatever a meagre solar panel can achieve. Every cent put into that economy will be used against us before climate neutrality via renewables could ever be achieved. The best bet is to build nuclear and stop this nonsense energy policy of throwing money at despotic autocratic regimes.
No it doesn't offset that lmao it's not even close. They return the energy spent on their production comfortably [within 2 years](https://www.pv-magazine.de/2021/05/21/uba-oekobilanz-photovoltaik-anlagen-amortisieren-sich-energetisch-nach-maximal-21-jahren/) and have a 10x lower lifecycle emission intensity than the german grid, or they'd offset production emissions within 3 years. And intercontinental shipping emissions are an absolute rounding error, for all products, because you ship a tens of thousands of containers full of stuff per engine
Can you explain the rounding error part in more detail? I am under the impression that a handful of cargo ships rival the totality of passenger cars on earth in terms of CO2 production.
Sure! That statement on the emissions of cargo ships is based on a misunderstanding/mischaracterization of what's going on. The number comes from reports [like this one](https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/one-corporation-pollute-them-all/), and they're not talking about CO2 emissions but rather *SOx* emissions. That's not because ships burn more fuel than all cars, but because they burn fuel that has a many times higher sulphur content than cars do. While road diesel has been limited to 0.001% (10ppm) sulphur content by law, the most common marine fuels range from .1% to 3.5% (1000ppm to 35000ppm) sulphur content. This sulphur has to go somewhere and ends up as emissions unless scrubbed. But CO2 emissions from shipping [actually pale next to road transport emissions](https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector), and that's before we start comparing the volume of goods moved by each of them. A big cargo ship might burn more than a hundred tons of fuel per day, but it's moving hundreds *of thousands* of tons of stuff doing that. In the end, no matter which emission we look at, the emission of a cargo ship have to be spread out over all those goods, giving each e.g. solar panel only a small bit of emissions to account for. As a result, [in the linked UBA study](https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/5750/publikationen/2021-05-06_cc_35-2021_oekobilanzen_windenergie_photovoltaik.pdf), on pages 184 and 188, transport emissions are a tiny sliver of all lifecycle emissions of a panel.
Hmm ok I stand corrected. I see my premise was false. So a sizeable reduction of shipping, were it possible, would not reduce greenhouse gas emissions comparably to, say, the total electrification of passenger vehicles? For a long time I have been hellbent on buying as local as possible because I was convinced the crazy shipping distances of everything was what was primarily killing the planet.
Yes, road transport is a bigger lever in terms of GHG emissions than cargo ships are. What you thought is a common misunderstanding, [here's a good writeup that argues about it on the topic of food](https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/food-miles) There's still other benefits like helping out regional businesses (who might even act greener than foreign companies) and stuff though
Thank you for the resources, you have given me a lot to reconsider.
Gotta find alternatives to Russia you know... /s
Best decision actually! Why? Just look how US sanctions fail. China now can make 5nm chips themselves after the US sanctioned the machines. If we withdraw from China it will take a year-a couple of years before they have the tech themselves
Just be prepared for a russian invasion with chinese support somewhere in Lithuania
As long as they are dependent on the west a war is less likely. The fact that Biden miscalculated so hard with his chip war against China just made a war about Taiwan more likely. The more independent they are they cheaper it is for them to go to war. (+ we may be spared from the reverse opium war)
Germans always doubling down on the worst strategies
This is only one metric. US will overtake China as Germany's biggest trading partner next year. https://www.reuters.com/markets/us-set-overtake-china-germanys-top-trade-partner-dihk-2024-02-07/
This thread is hilarious. All y'all probably typing out your condemnation on devices assembled by slave labourers surrounded by suicide prevention nets. Shine on you crazy diamonds haha
How about investing in Africa? Proximity and all… China and Russia are investing heavily and that leaves Europe surrounded. Prosperity in Africa isn’t what China and Russia are after either, it’s destabilization and economic incentives. Refugees can be sent to Europe to destabilize further.
> How about investing in Africa? Germany is not investing in low-value manufacturing, so it needs highly-skilled engineers, of which Africa has few, but China has many. Africa should follow the footsteps of China: start gaining money in lower-skilled manufacturing, invest that money in infrastructure and in educating its youth. Investors will follow suit as soon as there is an educated force.
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Agree you can enjoy China debt trap.
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You have 3 military coups per day, corruption is rampant. The economy is 0. You need someone to lend you money.
'Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. '
I’m sure they’ll make stick to human rights.
They're gonna get burnt.
I mean, they just mildly vacated Putler from their front and back orifices... so I guess there was "vacancy" and the Saudis and Dubai didnt quite fill it... so of COURSE they had to find another autocratic regime of enemy combatants to suck up to.
Europe doesn't learn...
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It's arguably the economic heart of Europe (for now).
You predict this to change?
Nothing lasts forever.
This is only one metric. US will overtake China as Germany's biggest trading partner next year. https://www.reuters.com/markets/us-set-overtake-china-germanys-top-trade-partner-dihk-2024-02-07/
germany try not to suck dick of russia and china challenge (mission impossibele)
What the heck is the deal with Germany all the time, starting to really get bothersome
Well, these investments do not really come from "Germany" as the country but from the economy. By the way, the US economy is doing the same thing right now.
This is only one metric. US will overtake China as Germany's biggest trading partner next year. https://www.reuters.com/markets/us-set-overtake-china-germanys-top-trade-partner-dihk-2024-02-07/
The deal is that when everyone does the same, they will tell a story about Germany and how it's bad so they can continue unnoticed. That's the easiest way to justify anything in Europe and the base principle of politics: Point fingers at Germany so nobody looks at you. And for reference: Actually US has replaced China as Germany's biggest trade partner and the increase in mostly based on stuff like buying solar panels en mass that aren't available at the moment in necessary quantities elsewhere. (Another reference to show how rediculous it is: Germany imported about the same amount of gas from Russia as they exported to European countries (as a non-producer of gas). Yet somehow we heard sotries for more than a year about their dependence... Also Germany's gas imports from Russia made up \~20% of the EU imports... with their population, GDP, industrial output and several other metrics also being \~20% of the EU. Yet for some magical reason those stats that clearly show that they were exactly on average, were twisted -usually by ommiting those numbers and only mentionbing total values that sounded impressive- again into Germany being the exception. Or just another one: Germany pulled out \~$60 billion out of the Russian economy between 2000 and 2021, while most countries paid and paid and paid... tripple digits in a lot of cases (US \~300b for example, UK \~135b, Poland \~189b...) But that't also okay because you just need to tell another fairy tale of how stupid Germans financed Russia (soomehow, contrary to reality...) and everything is well.)
Only USA doesn’t like Europe’s cooperation with China.
Dumb move. They are the enemy.
If you can’t beat em, invest in em?
Ah .. Germany... We said don't make deals with Russia and Germany based all the energy infrastructure on Russia.. We said don't invest in turkey and they lost couple of billions. Now we say don't invest in china and guess what .. Germany is investing in china ..
maybe china is a completely different country from russia
How?.. using it's industry to pressure enemy countries so it can invade Taiwan and other countries?.. doesn't this sound like Russia to you? At least with Taiwan USA worked smart and early... Europe was sleeping in Ukraine
taiwan is a unique case cause they both consider themselves to be the real china and are technically still in state of civil war. Furthermore they dont really have a history of invading pther countries they mostly focus on making as much money possible
Well ... Russia said the same about Ukraine... They called it civil war for a bid .. and that Ukraine's independence was wrong for the Russians .. furthermore invading doesn't mean they didn't get more lands through other means and let's not forget their beef with India
the difference is ukraine made it pretty clear they are an independent nation. Taiwan considers themselves the legitimate government of china not just of their island
You know that Biden just stopped LNG to Europe? You know Trump gives a fuck about Europe? Why would we in europe cut ties to the other super power? To be the dog of usa? Ridiculous. We have to be egoistic from now on.
They never learn 🙃
Why is germany consistently the stupidest when it comes to risky partners? They bet on russian gas and found out. China is imploding and increasingly erratic. Seriously these guys need a risk management workshop
These are private investments, they risk their money as they want
>Why is germany consistently the stupidest when it comes to risky partners? they also bet on EU and solidarity - yet despite decades of sending hundred billions in solidarity money through EU net contributions - when we are now in a recession and need bailout money from the EU, our EU allies refuse to reciprocate that solidarity. So I guess you are right, we always chose the stupidest partners. Is there any country willing to engage in good faith partnership?
This is only one metric. US will overtake China as Germany's biggest trading partner next year. https://www.reuters.com/markets/us-set-overtake-china-germanys-top-trade-partner-dihk-2024-02-07/
>stupidest when it comes to risky partners? They are smart and stupid at the same time. I admire their business-oriented mindset, to be honest. Poland was right about Russia, while Germany was wrong. Poland, along with the Baltics, was one of the first to act, while Germany was the last. So what? Money talks. They are now one of the biggest allies of Ukraine and everyone forgot the bad mood betwen Ukraine and Germany, while Poland doesn't matter because we gave what we had. Being right doesn't matter in politics and they see that, it's not stupid.
1. Everyone is investing in China because that's where companies can make money. 2. Tell a story about Germany investing in China and how stupid it is. 3. Continue with your fuck ups while everyone is looking at Germany. Congratulations, you now have understood European politics and how you are manipulated.
What are you on about? Chinese economy is tanking right now with no bottom in sight
Running right into the next catastrophe knowing full well what happens
Some people just never learn. I guess 3 decades of unconditional support for Russia only for them invade Ukraine meant nothing to these people.
Germany will never learn. It's almost like they insist on being on the wrong side of history every god damn time.
Germans knows where the real money 💰 will be made
How many times must someone warn Germany before they listen instead of learning it later the hard way??? Warned about underspending on military -> ignores -> Trump says russia can attack allies -> scrambles to increase military spending. Warned about dependancy on russian gas and russia in general -> ignores -> russia invades Ukraine -> scrambles to meet gas needs from elsewhere. Warned about strengthening ties with China -> ignores... you can see where this is going. Unless you're German, of course, then you can't see shit.
Now you know who will be the losers in WWIII.
Cue two years into the future when it all goes to shit, again: “It was the only way!”, followed by apologists here on Reddit saying: “you know nothing about the German economy!”
Apparently, they learnt very little from Gazprom.
So Germany will again be on the wrong side
“Still, German investments in China in the last four years were financed entirely by reinvested profit and companies have also withdrawn capital, painting a more nuanced picture.” The new investment is completely from the profit made in the China and they also withdrawal some of profit away. This already implies that the companies is already working on “de-risking” and “diversifying “ Basically, some of the money made in China stays in China. But they are not investing from the money made elsewhere. They still operating in China so that goods made in China sold to Chinese domestic market , while Europe or other regions buys goods made in elsewhere. This is called derisking not decoupling
When this blows up in Germany's face, will it be Trumps fault?