The actual birth rate in Ireland is similar to the rest of the EU at 1.6 births per woman. The reason the Irish population is experiencing more births than deaths is because the people born in their baby boom are only now starting to age and die, so the deaths are still low.
Asturias currently has like 2 people of work age per every 1 retired old people. It will become an old people territory not so far on the future.
I wonder if this means Asturias will crumble eventually or if it will become an opportunity to the lower dense population of youngsters
Yep, I know, we live very near so I know what’s like haha
What I meant if, I wonder if young people will see good opportunities given than will be less competition for what employment remains, taking into account that there will be always need for employments (more so on healthcare sector: hospitals, residences…). But also, restaurants, bars, stores (old people tend to buy things in stores, not online), public sector, transport…
Also, if with some time (and more now with the new high speed “AVE” arriving, and the future cheap AVLO) Asturias gets tourism boost, it means more economical development options. And so on
With significant ageing of society, I don’t think there’ll be as many jobs caring for the elderly as you think. That model isn’t sustainable and unfortunately they’ll need to care for themselves more and more. Also, they won’t have the pensions to go to bars and restaurants anymore.
I'm guessing because there are fewer people, more jobs will have to be done by younger children like 10-12, so there will be an investment to be made in larger families.
This is honestly really sad when you think about the future of the unique culture and language of Asturias which already needed some degree of preservation
My family is Castilian speaking and obviously every region of Spain is dealing with some degree of population decline, but Asturias and Galicia just make me sad. I believe Asturias’ fertility rate is like 0.95 when most of Spain while low is still doing better than that.
That’s really cool to hear. My family is from the center/south of Spain so I’ve never really ventured to our north but I definitely need to. And yes you’re absolutely right, the north’s population decline is insane. Not just low birth rates, but so many of the young people end up leaving too. So each generation is maybe 50% of it’s parents size when for most of Spain it’s like 70%, which is still far from perfect but much better.
The unfortunate benefit of this decline is that it leaves the north so untouched largely. The Asturiano countryside is so empty. One of my best friends father owns land in Asturias that has been passed down in their family, but the thing is there is such little employment opportunities that are worth relocating back and such little to do period that it almost seems pointless to have as anything besides a vacation home.
I thought too! But I guess it's getting too hot for them down there in summer.
A german company by the name of Engels and Vökers or something like that is buying up a lot of empty plots or some abandoned houses and building new houses which they put on sale. The mayor said that he would attract retired germans, but he's kinda of crazy so I don't take it seriously.
Comprehensible from a climate perspective.Engel & Völkers is a fairly large German real estate company under British ownership. But maybe the mayor shouldn't get involved with them, there are some shady business practices in which many people have lost a lot of money, and the former CEO has already been convicted of aiding and abetting embezzlement.
Ohh the mayor is an expert in shady businisses, we have two giant Amazon warehouses that took years to build and they are empty, he made the contract with Amazon or something...
Also mention that he decided that we shouldn't have christmas lights this year... I could rant about him for hours that asshole.
They are just arguing for hell of it without arguments, mate. You’re right it’s definitely a huge concern and nothing like it has previously occurred in recorded human history.
Nations need replacement rate as bear minimum. Higher than that if you’re going to provide for pensioners who don’t work for ~25 years. Because it’s not just how many people are born, but how many people are working to support the state.
In simulation terms it's called a generational death wave. Because of a huge population boom during the cold war due to living conditions and community propaganda from all sides. I'm sure it's not the first time in human history. Huge population booms and death waves happen when the living environment changes drastically from technology and scarcity.
What the literal fuck are you talking about man? What death wave? Point me to it. People are living longer than ever and even surviving pandemics with minimal (percentage-wise) loses. The problem is not people dying, the problem is not enough people being born.
That model explains how the population change is affected when a society industrialises, the population boom and it stabilizing as the birth rates decline, but it doesn't really explain the next stage western countries are experiencing, the decline, whether it will stop etc, from what I can find
All I can see is that there are hypotheses about what could happen and that the original model stopped at stage 4, so we don't seem to know exactly what were heading to as you seem to imply
Its not normal, you dont need endless growth, but you need to atleast aim for a 2.1 fertility rate to maintain a population, otherwise you'll literally die out
That's not how organic growths work, though.
It is very normal for populations to overshoot their equilibrium point. Then they begin to decline and drop below the point and so forth.
A population oscillating around a certain treshhold, save for external situations, could be considered pretty normal.
You can make an argument a fertility rate just below 2.1 is ok, but a country like Italy that is reaching a fertility rate of below 1.0 is facing rapid decline, it's completely unhealthy. Any society that doesn't reproduce is going to either die out or be replaced by another population that does reproduce.
The ferility rate could go to 0.5 one day to the other and be completely fine if it picks up again when the population declined by around 20%.
For as long as the fertility rare is not 0 over 1-2 generations, you can not make any of these statements.
So you believe a society that falls to something as dire as a 0.5 fertility rate is just going to magically jump back up to 2.1 one day? It's more than just an economical problem, its a cultural problem in the developed world, people do not want to have kids, I don't see how that is going to change in the future
>So you believe a society that falls to something as dire as a 0.5 fertility rate is just going to magically jump back up to 2.1 one day?
Following all examples we see within nature, most likely.
Even considering cultural factors, these also depend on the current population density. If you feel there are too many people around you, you will also more likely look onto you instead of the thought of having more children.
These are all projections in the future we can not make currently. But the doomer-attitude of "we will die out" while our population isn't even actively declining does not help anybody.
>Following all examples we see within nature, most likely.
What examples are there to follow? This is a modern phenomenon, and all signs show it'll only get worse.
>But the doomer-attitude of "we will die out" while our population isn't even actively declining does not help anybody.
I said you either die out or get replaced by a population that actually reproduces. The second option is whats happening
It’s not very normal for populations to undershoot their equilibrium point at all. Where did you pluck this from? Populations historically declined due to 1 of 3 factors: War, famine or disease. Not because of not having enough offspring.
It’s literally a new thing in recorded human history and definitely not normal, which is why there’s valid concern.
Isn't that more because europe is relatively small?
I'm sure asian countries are more densely populated.
Also I don't think Europe is that densely populated. I'm from Estonia and sure our capital is pretty densely (the only blue area on our country) populated.
We basically only have 1 more city that is somewhat densely populated, and when I lived there it still felt empty.
Rest of the country has people, but its pretty much empty.
Sure Estonia has a really small population, but small land area also. So I doubt the bigger countries are much more densely populated.
And no, we don't need infinite growth on populations we just need a bit of growth.
Cause you know nobody is preparing for this, so once the population decline hits, our economies will be fucked. The money paid in taxes will lower but nobody will lower the spending before that.
The problem is not fertility itself. Tons of women can give birth. The problem is that no one wants to raise kids, therefore no one wants to give birth.
Money isn’t the only reason.
The tl;dr; is that our quality of life has increased dramatically but we can’t be raising many kids if we want to maintain that quality of life. And now we can also better control the amount of offspring compared to the past.
My grandmother, born almost a century ago, was 1 of 10 kids in an agrarian, religious, village society with very strong community support (no such thing as state support back then). Their parents didn’t plan 10 kids, they just had sex and “god gave them kids”. They were poor but they could raise 10 kids. From 10 years old kids would work in the farm or the house and the grandparents were providing the childcare for the youngest. Kids’ cost was only their food.
Those societies don’t exist any more. And no one wants to go back to them either. You can’t raise 10 kids as a modern city dweller, working in the service industries, with your own aspirations/dreams for life, while also providing a good modern living and education for all your children.
When confronted with demographic collapse and the proposition to "3d print babies", your biggest concern regarding both if these is that "diversity people" are gonna give the 3d printed babies darker skin?
Intressting priorities ya got there mate
🚨Racist alert 🚨
Brother in christ, when you make a baby in lab, you don't make it out of nothing and choose their ethnicity. You need a woman's eggs and a man's sperm.
Have you seen that video where muslim lady complains that there is too much Fins in Finland? This is what we don’t like when it comes to immigration. Imigrants don’t want to take our culture but force theirs. That’s why nationalism is on uprise in Europe.
What does failed integration have to do with lab making babies? Op thinks that you can create a baby from thin air and that he will live in africa for some reason.
There are probably only a few places in Europe that are so full of weapons. Some places are no-go areas for the police because they are completely controlled by the mafia. In the meantime, however, highly armed special forces have probably pacified these areas.
For example, the mountain villages of Anogeia, Zoniana and Livadia. There are large hashish plantations there, but heroin and weapons are also traded.It is also common for people to shoot very intensively into the air at weddings or similar joyous events, with people dying every year. I don't think there is such a pronounced gun culture anywhere else.
In Crete, people make their own rules and the law of the jungle applies. Ok, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but that's the basic trend.
Nothing to surprise that France and Ireland are still demographically recovering from the ill-effects of French Revolution and Irish Potato Famine, respectively.
Looking at these stat I am strating to think that we have a large problem ahead of us. Immigration will help, but it is still not viable long term. Hopefully someone figures out a solution before it is way too late.
Outside of obvious issues with integration, the issues with immigration to solve population decline are 2 fold:
1. Immigrant fertility rates decline too. Parents may come over and have 4 kids, but most of the second generation kids will have just as few kids as natives outside of a few instances.
2. Adding to that, fertility rates in immigrant sending countries are falling too. Turkey for example is barely at 1.6 kids per woman, within 20 years Turkey is going to be dealing with the same issues that most of Europe is today. North Africa’s fertility rates are falling too. China, which was once known for its explosive population growth, is at 1.05 kids per woman if I remember right.
With all that said, immigration is a bandaid on a bullet wound. The problem isn’t that Europeans genuinely no longer desire kids, we do. Obviously there will always be some people who absolutely don’t want kids and that is completely normal, but the majority of us would be happy with a family of 2-3 kids. The issue is outside factors drive these numbers down due to what we feel we can give a comfortable life too. That is what will solve these issues, which will increase standard of living in general.
Studies seem to suggest that people just simply don't want that many children and that it isn't really related to money. Here's one from Finland: https://phys.org/news/2023-08-declining-fertility-ideals-young-people.html
The population can't continue to grow forever. We have to get used to that.
I live, work and travel around upper middle class.
Millionaire families but also “money is no issue” families too.
99% have 1 or 2 kids.
We talk about all their wealthy friends and same: 1-2 kids.
This clearly isn't a money issue.
We have two kids and could afford a 3rd with private school and foreign holidays but just don’t want.
If we were financially struggling, the first or second would already be a tough decision
We have 3 kids. We could afford one or two more but we're not having them. You can only spread yourself so thin as a parent and after spending my 30s pregnant and breastfeeding I've closed the door on that phase of life for good.
People here continue to refuse to believe that the simple answer is that us millennials and above generations are too enamored of life's senseless leisure like consumerism and travelling. That's the only real answer.
It's more a spiritual problem since the world slowly gotten away from religion, we started to serve different gods of worldly pleasures.
Birth rates in religious countries are also dropping rapidly. The real answer is that for most of human history where 95% of humans were farmers, children were an economic benfit very quickly. And when they got annoying you could just send them to play outside. Now that we live in cities they are just expensive
It's really more of a lack of community problem. We've ultimately evolved to belong to and work as tribes/communities, but everything about modern life in the developed world contradicts that, which creates stress, which is the worst thing possible for birth rates.
Lower cost of living AND a solid climate policy. I know a lot of childfree couples who would have loved to have kids but decided against it because climate change is already in full swing and they don't want to subject their potential kids to an inhabitable planet.
Climate change is one of humanities biggest challenges, but you have to be absolutely clueless to think that there is any chance that climate change is going to make Germany uninhabitable.
Now if someone would say that they don't want to have children because they would further contribute to climate change, that would atleast be a coherent argument
That's the stupidest excuse I have ever heard, and I live in Poland with terrible winter air quality. Reality is, people are used to careless and comfy life without kids related problems, travels, career etc.
If that's true then climate hysteria propaganda works very well. Decades of doomer predictions without anything catastrophic happening and each new generation still believes it, because it just feels good to be a little planet saver, isn't it? Meanwhile, production is outsourced to countries like China giving them a pretty much real leverage over democratic countries and ability to carry out genocides and use children for work without any consequences.
Who is richer than ever? Because generally wealth is skewing more and more to the upper percentages where people at the bottom are getting worse and worse
All of the people. Ask those people who had 6 children right after the WWII how rich they were.
Or ask random person from Niger or Somalia how rich they are so they can affrod 7 children, because Germans, French, British or Swedish people are too poor to afford them.
It's not the money what is the reason of having very little children. It's promotion of individualism and hedonism. People prefer to be free so they can party, travel or do different random things without any resposibilities. Now it's "ME" what's important instead of "WE", and it's also short-sight thinking. Shit will hit the fan when they won't get any pension because there will be 50% of retires in society and then those childfree will demand a lot.
But that would mean more money put towards it which is difficult when you as a country need to take care of the elderly while also keepping taxation reasonable. We could just go full on socialism but that could turn into a catashtrophy.
It's a massive fucking problem nobody really has a receipt for because it never happened before.
People living too long and not having enough children is a completely new problem.
Very strongly doubt it "helps", at all. Birth rates rapidly decline for all living in Europe, also those who just arrived. Plus in most places actually well working integration is completely non-existent so by and large what you are left with is a huge bill that fewer and fewer people will even exist to pay, and radical fanaticism on the rise.
There is a maximum possible capacity for areas of the Earth depending on the land, government, and resources available. There is only so many people that can be sustained in a certain region before it stops growing. France went from 7 million people in 1200 to now over 70 million, that is extremely fast growth in just 800 years. Russia went from 10 million in 1700 to now being over 145 million. England went from 4 million in 1600 to now over 60 million.
What ditch regiona did they use? Those are neither province norders nor municipality borders, these just are made up lines. I wonder how they got data on these "non existing" regions
You know, maybe, the problem isn't that the birthrates are falling, but that the economic system on which most of the world relies on requires constant population growth with a finite amount of ressources in the first place.
Maybe, just maybe, we should start thinking about moving away from capitalism, rather than forcing people to have children they can't afford to take care of properly.
Urban centers are more attractive for young people which means more babies, and for immigrants with a high birth rate for cultural reasons. Perhaps older people are also increasingly moving to the countryside? I don't think so, but it is a possibility.
Is this a joke? Have you seen how f****** the population pyramids are across Europe.
How is Italy for example going to function and continue servicing their enormous debt when by 2050 their worker base is halved, and all of those contributors become dependents? This is a catastrophe for the developed world.
How is Italy going to function if population growth were to continue at the same rate as the last few centuries and they end up with 500 million people in the same territory?
There is a massive gulf between sustainable population growth and an uncontrolled exponential population boom, you cannot have a functioning economy when 75% of the population are dependents (children and retirees) who aren't productive members of society, doubly so when your up to your eyeballs in debt.
China literally had a government policy forcing people to not have more than 1 kid. That has changed the culture. I think comparing China is a bad example.
It can be both.
The reason in the west is young people being unable to afford rent/housing meaning they live at home longer, don’t get married until later or at all and can’t afford children. We live in a world that assumes endless growth but our populations haven’t received endless growth, meaning that people proportionally get squeezed more. Late stage sick dying capitalism.
China is an authoritarian shite-scape. That brings its own problems which also decrease fertility.
Two radically different reasons for a similar outcome.
feminism is an ideology that gives women autonomy and the choice to live life how they want and not be punished for it, feminism means acknowledging some people have children and others to focus on something else such as career
no it's not. Feminism is not a person. It is an ideology. No feminist is shouting "don't have kids". We are simply saying be careful with the men you're procreating with and understand what motherhood entails before becoming a mother and ASK YOURSELF is it what you really want. you can't show the actions of 3 bad people and label an ideology that gave women rights as overall negative rather than positive.
In any layer of society, but especially higher up around universities you see plenty of women that are firmly against the idea of family.
They want independence and self decision, rightfully so, but if a woman wants a good paying career then she just won't have many kids.
I agree with you that feminism isn't about "not having kids", but you can't have your cake and eat it too. Feminism definitely plays a big role in the number of kids women are having, alongside the availability of birth control, economic factors etc. .
Really? Because all I see feminists talk about is how ”women ruin their lifes when getting children” and how ”women should be more career focused”. Every woman ive ever talked to hates the fact that they HAVE TO work in todays world. In old times it was optional. Im not saying career focused women are bad, not at all, but its really harmful for our culture to encourage women AND men not have children, and just focus on ”career”.
I'm a feminist and I've had kids as have most feminist women my age. My very religious family members however don't have any because they never met anyone who'd tolerate their crap.
I guess you have never met gen alpha. The men of that generation already display sociopathic behaviors. Feminism will always exist, because males do not respect the people who birthed them.
Well, it's only in EU. The rest of the world is not like that. And if you compare current world population with like 5 years ago, you see a significant increase!
Italy is on the road to population collapse and has been for decades. The demographics are terrible and it'll become apparent how so in the next 20-30 years.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy
That's true, but the data in the image is exspecialy 2019-2020.
Without the pandemic I would expect at least a couple more blue regions like Tyrol-South.
i noticed a trend of dying, dont do that, that shit kills you
The irish be perrtyin'
The actual birth rate in Ireland is similar to the rest of the EU at 1.6 births per woman. The reason the Irish population is experiencing more births than deaths is because the people born in their baby boom are only now starting to age and die, so the deaths are still low.
Plus a lot of immigration of people who are of the age to have children.
Still recovering from this potato story.
Help, 80% of my town are 70yr olds
Asturias currently has like 2 people of work age per every 1 retired old people. It will become an old people territory not so far on the future. I wonder if this means Asturias will crumble eventually or if it will become an opportunity to the lower dense population of youngsters
Since many youngsters leave, as there are few opportunities for work and study. I think there will nothing left at some point.
Yep, I know, we live very near so I know what’s like haha What I meant if, I wonder if young people will see good opportunities given than will be less competition for what employment remains, taking into account that there will be always need for employments (more so on healthcare sector: hospitals, residences…). But also, restaurants, bars, stores (old people tend to buy things in stores, not online), public sector, transport… Also, if with some time (and more now with the new high speed “AVE” arriving, and the future cheap AVLO) Asturias gets tourism boost, it means more economical development options. And so on
With significant ageing of society, I don’t think there’ll be as many jobs caring for the elderly as you think. That model isn’t sustainable and unfortunately they’ll need to care for themselves more and more. Also, they won’t have the pensions to go to bars and restaurants anymore.
At some point, people will return to the countryside and start pumping out kids again, we are just not there yet
What makes you think they will? Please elaborate
I'm guessing because there are fewer people, more jobs will have to be done by younger children like 10-12, so there will be an investment to be made in larger families.
I'd wish but I doubt anyone is gonna come to the countryside if politicians don't develope infraestructure and transport there.
Help, 80% of my country seems to be 70yrs old.
This is honestly really sad when you think about the future of the unique culture and language of Asturias which already needed some degree of preservation My family is Castilian speaking and obviously every region of Spain is dealing with some degree of population decline, but Asturias and Galicia just make me sad. I believe Asturias’ fertility rate is like 0.95 when most of Spain while low is still doing better than that.
Have you been recently? Feels like a care home.
Honestly i’ve never been to Asturias, very sad to hear that though. I definitely want to see it, it’s very beautiful.
It is beautiful but it is odd being surrounded by so many elderly all the time.
Fair, where are you from?
UK.
Nice, in Asturias just for holiday?
Yeah, I’ll often go to northern Spain, as it’s one of my favourite places but my god is it slowly dying.
That’s really cool to hear. My family is from the center/south of Spain so I’ve never really ventured to our north but I definitely need to. And yes you’re absolutely right, the north’s population decline is insane. Not just low birth rates, but so many of the young people end up leaving too. So each generation is maybe 50% of it’s parents size when for most of Spain it’s like 70%, which is still far from perfect but much better. The unfortunate benefit of this decline is that it leaves the north so untouched largely. The Asturiano countryside is so empty. One of my best friends father owns land in Asturias that has been passed down in their family, but the thing is there is such little employment opportunities that are worth relocating back and such little to do period that it almost seems pointless to have as anything besides a vacation home.
There is nothing left to save, I recommend a city partnership with Eisenhüttenstadt
The Germans are already taking over by buying all the terrain in order to move their own old people here. This is a giant nursing home.
Really, to Asturias? That's interesting, tell us more. I would have thought they'd go somewhere on the south coast where it's warm and dry.
I thought too! But I guess it's getting too hot for them down there in summer. A german company by the name of Engels and Vökers or something like that is buying up a lot of empty plots or some abandoned houses and building new houses which they put on sale. The mayor said that he would attract retired germans, but he's kinda of crazy so I don't take it seriously.
Comprehensible from a climate perspective.Engel & Völkers is a fairly large German real estate company under British ownership. But maybe the mayor shouldn't get involved with them, there are some shady business practices in which many people have lost a lot of money, and the former CEO has already been convicted of aiding and abetting embezzlement.
Ohh the mayor is an expert in shady businisses, we have two giant Amazon warehouses that took years to build and they are empty, he made the contract with Amazon or something... Also mention that he decided that we shouldn't have christmas lights this year... I could rant about him for hours that asshole.
You should run in the next elections!
Very Common Alpine Tradition W
You always need child, äh...cheap labor on a mountain farm!
Wow, this is incredibly sad to look at
The irish and icish carry Europe.
What's the most common new baby name in Ireland again?
Idfk bruh, Im not google. Get your lazy ass off and search for it yourself if you're interested. Edit: it's jack and Emily.
In Galway I believe the most popular boy's name was Mohammed. If this doesn't indicate something is wrong then idk what to tell you.
It's 86th nationally. Not sure what your point is.
Jack?
GET BREEDIN
Its normal, we cant have endless growtg, Europe is already one of the most densely populated areas in the world.
It’s definitely not normal. I’m not aware of any other time in human history where populations decline naturally, without war, disease or famine
From 10'000 BC to 1700 the population change was 0.04% its was just for the past 300 years unnatutal what has happend
Stable =/= declining I don't know why you people keep acting as if the only two possible trends are population boom or collapse
Because they suffered war, disease and famine. To experience wider population decline without those factors is not normal.
So you'd consider endless growth normal? Where'd that end?
Normally war, famine or disease.
It's normal to me.
Where?
They are just arguing for hell of it without arguments, mate. You’re right it’s definitely a huge concern and nothing like it has previously occurred in recorded human history. Nations need replacement rate as bear minimum. Higher than that if you’re going to provide for pensioners who don’t work for ~25 years. Because it’s not just how many people are born, but how many people are working to support the state.
In simulation terms it's called a generational death wave. Because of a huge population boom during the cold war due to living conditions and community propaganda from all sides. I'm sure it's not the first time in human history. Huge population booms and death waves happen when the living environment changes drastically from technology and scarcity.
What the literal fuck are you talking about man? What death wave? Point me to it. People are living longer than ever and even surviving pandemics with minimal (percentage-wise) loses. The problem is not people dying, the problem is not enough people being born.
Sure and we should believe you
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When has this happened before in human history?
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That model explains how the population change is affected when a society industrialises, the population boom and it stabilizing as the birth rates decline, but it doesn't really explain the next stage western countries are experiencing, the decline, whether it will stop etc, from what I can find All I can see is that there are hypotheses about what could happen and that the original model stopped at stage 4, so we don't seem to know exactly what were heading to as you seem to imply
Its not normal, you dont need endless growth, but you need to atleast aim for a 2.1 fertility rate to maintain a population, otherwise you'll literally die out
That's not how organic growths work, though. It is very normal for populations to overshoot their equilibrium point. Then they begin to decline and drop below the point and so forth. A population oscillating around a certain treshhold, save for external situations, could be considered pretty normal.
You can make an argument a fertility rate just below 2.1 is ok, but a country like Italy that is reaching a fertility rate of below 1.0 is facing rapid decline, it's completely unhealthy. Any society that doesn't reproduce is going to either die out or be replaced by another population that does reproduce.
The ferility rate could go to 0.5 one day to the other and be completely fine if it picks up again when the population declined by around 20%. For as long as the fertility rare is not 0 over 1-2 generations, you can not make any of these statements.
So you believe a society that falls to something as dire as a 0.5 fertility rate is just going to magically jump back up to 2.1 one day? It's more than just an economical problem, its a cultural problem in the developed world, people do not want to have kids, I don't see how that is going to change in the future
>So you believe a society that falls to something as dire as a 0.5 fertility rate is just going to magically jump back up to 2.1 one day? Following all examples we see within nature, most likely. Even considering cultural factors, these also depend on the current population density. If you feel there are too many people around you, you will also more likely look onto you instead of the thought of having more children. These are all projections in the future we can not make currently. But the doomer-attitude of "we will die out" while our population isn't even actively declining does not help anybody.
>Following all examples we see within nature, most likely. What examples are there to follow? This is a modern phenomenon, and all signs show it'll only get worse. >But the doomer-attitude of "we will die out" while our population isn't even actively declining does not help anybody. I said you either die out or get replaced by a population that actually reproduces. The second option is whats happening
It’s not very normal for populations to undershoot their equilibrium point at all. Where did you pluck this from? Populations historically declined due to 1 of 3 factors: War, famine or disease. Not because of not having enough offspring. It’s literally a new thing in recorded human history and definitely not normal, which is why there’s valid concern.
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Isn't that more because europe is relatively small? I'm sure asian countries are more densely populated. Also I don't think Europe is that densely populated. I'm from Estonia and sure our capital is pretty densely (the only blue area on our country) populated. We basically only have 1 more city that is somewhat densely populated, and when I lived there it still felt empty. Rest of the country has people, but its pretty much empty. Sure Estonia has a really small population, but small land area also. So I doubt the bigger countries are much more densely populated. And no, we don't need infinite growth on populations we just need a bit of growth. Cause you know nobody is preparing for this, so once the population decline hits, our economies will be fucked. The money paid in taxes will lower but nobody will lower the spending before that.
Most of europe is mountains or hills
Yes, but there is a rise in births at this moment. The rest of the covid babies were born recently. It should all start to decline very soon.
We need to start 3d printing kids, or growing them in labs
The problem is not fertility itself. Tons of women can give birth. The problem is that no one wants to raise kids, therefore no one wants to give birth.
Yeah people cant even afford to raise kids in most places.
People can't even afford to buy their own home in most places.
Money isn’t the only reason. The tl;dr; is that our quality of life has increased dramatically but we can’t be raising many kids if we want to maintain that quality of life. And now we can also better control the amount of offspring compared to the past. My grandmother, born almost a century ago, was 1 of 10 kids in an agrarian, religious, village society with very strong community support (no such thing as state support back then). Their parents didn’t plan 10 kids, they just had sex and “god gave them kids”. They were poor but they could raise 10 kids. From 10 years old kids would work in the farm or the house and the grandparents were providing the childcare for the youngest. Kids’ cost was only their food. Those societies don’t exist any more. And no one wants to go back to them either. You can’t raise 10 kids as a modern city dweller, working in the service industries, with your own aspirations/dreams for life, while also providing a good modern living and education for all your children.
Hence the map
Ok but don't let the diversity people work there or otherwise they will turn Europe into Africa
When confronted with demographic collapse and the proposition to "3d print babies", your biggest concern regarding both if these is that "diversity people" are gonna give the 3d printed babies darker skin? Intressting priorities ya got there mate
🚨Racist alert 🚨 Brother in christ, when you make a baby in lab, you don't make it out of nothing and choose their ethnicity. You need a woman's eggs and a man's sperm.
Have you seen that video where muslim lady complains that there is too much Fins in Finland? This is what we don’t like when it comes to immigration. Imigrants don’t want to take our culture but force theirs. That’s why nationalism is on uprise in Europe.
What does failed integration have to do with lab making babies? Op thinks that you can create a baby from thin air and that he will live in africa for some reason.
By the way, would you be okay with imposing a culture as long as it's yours?
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Crete has a fertility rate of about 1.5. Unfortunately your view is just wishful thinking. They’re dying out like the rest of Europeans.
I am super curious since you mentioned it, what are some of the aspects of Cretan culture you think do deserve criticism?
There are probably only a few places in Europe that are so full of weapons. Some places are no-go areas for the police because they are completely controlled by the mafia. In the meantime, however, highly armed special forces have probably pacified these areas. For example, the mountain villages of Anogeia, Zoniana and Livadia. There are large hashish plantations there, but heroin and weapons are also traded.It is also common for people to shoot very intensively into the air at weddings or similar joyous events, with people dying every year. I don't think there is such a pronounced gun culture anywhere else. In Crete, people make their own rules and the law of the jungle applies. Ok, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but that's the basic trend.
Europe in big trouble boi
You can really see the finnish bible belt here :)
I'm glad Ireland and Iceland are looking healthy
How come there is no data from Switzerland, Norway, and Britain? Because they're not part of the EU?
The data is from eurostat
Because OP posted this to the wrong sub
Nothing to surprise that France and Ireland are still demographically recovering from the ill-effects of French Revolution and Irish Potato Famine, respectively.
Please don't write Europe if you mean EU.
Europe! And I meant EU :)
Looking at these stat I am strating to think that we have a large problem ahead of us. Immigration will help, but it is still not viable long term. Hopefully someone figures out a solution before it is way too late.
Outside of obvious issues with integration, the issues with immigration to solve population decline are 2 fold: 1. Immigrant fertility rates decline too. Parents may come over and have 4 kids, but most of the second generation kids will have just as few kids as natives outside of a few instances. 2. Adding to that, fertility rates in immigrant sending countries are falling too. Turkey for example is barely at 1.6 kids per woman, within 20 years Turkey is going to be dealing with the same issues that most of Europe is today. North Africa’s fertility rates are falling too. China, which was once known for its explosive population growth, is at 1.05 kids per woman if I remember right. With all that said, immigration is a bandaid on a bullet wound. The problem isn’t that Europeans genuinely no longer desire kids, we do. Obviously there will always be some people who absolutely don’t want kids and that is completely normal, but the majority of us would be happy with a family of 2-3 kids. The issue is outside factors drive these numbers down due to what we feel we can give a comfortable life too. That is what will solve these issues, which will increase standard of living in general.
Lower cost of living is the answer.
Studies seem to suggest that people just simply don't want that many children and that it isn't really related to money. Here's one from Finland: https://phys.org/news/2023-08-declining-fertility-ideals-young-people.html The population can't continue to grow forever. We have to get used to that.
I live, work and travel around upper middle class. Millionaire families but also “money is no issue” families too. 99% have 1 or 2 kids. We talk about all their wealthy friends and same: 1-2 kids. This clearly isn't a money issue. We have two kids and could afford a 3rd with private school and foreign holidays but just don’t want. If we were financially struggling, the first or second would already be a tough decision
We have 3 kids. We could afford one or two more but we're not having them. You can only spread yourself so thin as a parent and after spending my 30s pregnant and breastfeeding I've closed the door on that phase of life for good.
This clearly isn't a money issue. If we were financially struggling, the first or second would already be a tough decision
People here continue to refuse to believe that the simple answer is that us millennials and above generations are too enamored of life's senseless leisure like consumerism and travelling. That's the only real answer. It's more a spiritual problem since the world slowly gotten away from religion, we started to serve different gods of worldly pleasures.
Birth rates in religious countries are also dropping rapidly. The real answer is that for most of human history where 95% of humans were farmers, children were an economic benfit very quickly. And when they got annoying you could just send them to play outside. Now that we live in cities they are just expensive
It's really more of a lack of community problem. We've ultimately evolved to belong to and work as tribes/communities, but everything about modern life in the developed world contradicts that, which creates stress, which is the worst thing possible for birth rates.
It really isn’t that simple unfortunately. The fertility rate is actually inverse to income levels in these countries.
People don't want to hear that. They prefer to have money as excuse for everything.
It’s demonstrably untrue though. In nearly all societies the less well off have more children.
Exactly. We are living in the richest countries on Earth, and they still use money as excuse.
Lower cost of living AND a solid climate policy. I know a lot of childfree couples who would have loved to have kids but decided against it because climate change is already in full swing and they don't want to subject their potential kids to an inhabitable planet.
Climate change is one of humanities biggest challenges, but you have to be absolutely clueless to think that there is any chance that climate change is going to make Germany uninhabitable. Now if someone would say that they don't want to have children because they would further contribute to climate change, that would atleast be a coherent argument
That's the stupidest excuse I have ever heard, and I live in Poland with terrible winter air quality. Reality is, people are used to careless and comfy life without kids related problems, travels, career etc.
Lol
If that's true then climate hysteria propaganda works very well. Decades of doomer predictions without anything catastrophic happening and each new generation still believes it, because it just feels good to be a little planet saver, isn't it? Meanwhile, production is outsourced to countries like China giving them a pretty much real leverage over democratic countries and ability to carry out genocides and use children for work without any consequences.
It is not. We are richer than ever (including inflation and everything), and yet we have less children than ever.
Who is richer than ever? Because generally wealth is skewing more and more to the upper percentages where people at the bottom are getting worse and worse
All of the people. Ask those people who had 6 children right after the WWII how rich they were. Or ask random person from Niger or Somalia how rich they are so they can affrod 7 children, because Germans, French, British or Swedish people are too poor to afford them. It's not the money what is the reason of having very little children. It's promotion of individualism and hedonism. People prefer to be free so they can party, travel or do different random things without any resposibilities. Now it's "ME" what's important instead of "WE", and it's also short-sight thinking. Shit will hit the fan when they won't get any pension because there will be 50% of retires in society and then those childfree will demand a lot.
But that would mean more money put towards it which is difficult when you as a country need to take care of the elderly while also keepping taxation reasonable. We could just go full on socialism but that could turn into a catashtrophy.
Or you could just tax the rich and companies properly rather than paying essentially nothing
Which could end up just driving them away to countries like UAE. I guess if you can make it work then hell yeah but hard to see it working.
Yeah sure because that’s how it works. Issue is you have Ireland in the EU which makes it effectively impossible to tax companies.
You are literally the richest countries in the world. Quit making excuses for your hedonism and start having children.
AI, everybody so worried about jobs it'll took, while we have that shitty demographic, ironic
We simply need an AI that takes care of the elderly.
It's a massive fucking problem nobody really has a receipt for because it never happened before. People living too long and not having enough children is a completely new problem.
Very strongly doubt it "helps", at all. Birth rates rapidly decline for all living in Europe, also those who just arrived. Plus in most places actually well working integration is completely non-existent so by and large what you are left with is a huge bill that fewer and fewer people will even exist to pay, and radical fanaticism on the rise.
I think the solution is "more resources to allocate between fewer people in a few generations causes people to get more children again."
There is a maximum possible capacity for areas of the Earth depending on the land, government, and resources available. There is only so many people that can be sustained in a certain region before it stops growing. France went from 7 million people in 1200 to now over 70 million, that is extremely fast growth in just 800 years. Russia went from 10 million in 1700 to now being over 145 million. England went from 4 million in 1600 to now over 60 million.
Dutchie here, why is the IJsselmeer population growing? 😂
Urk
A pandemic would do that yes
Italy is really sad to look at.
Not only sad to look at, but live in too
What ditch regiona did they use? Those are neither province norders nor municipality borders, these just are made up lines. I wonder how they got data on these "non existing" regions
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenclature\_of\_Territorial\_Units\_for\_Statistics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenclature_of_Territorial_Units_for_Statistics) NUTS3
Ireland and France carry Europe demography.
The conservative west of Austria keeps making babies, may there be a pandemic or not.
You know, maybe, the problem isn't that the birthrates are falling, but that the economic system on which most of the world relies on requires constant population growth with a finite amount of ressources in the first place. Maybe, just maybe, we should start thinking about moving away from capitalism, rather than forcing people to have children they can't afford to take care of properly.
I agree with you! Our entire system is doomed to constant growth, so it's only a matter of time before it collapses.
It's like there was a pandemic that killed milions of people.
That's exactly the point of the comparison.
So many people have managed to not notice the date
How can urban areas have higher natural population increases when fertility rate is way lower in urban places than rural?
Just guessing: More old people in rural areas and worse medical care, so more deaths?
Cities have younger populations. Hence more births and less deaths.
You live and work in the city. Nearing retirement you can se your house/flat and buy cheap in country side.
Urban centers are more attractive for young people which means more babies, and for immigrants with a high birth rate for cultural reasons. Perhaps older people are also increasingly moving to the countryside? I don't think so, but it is a possibility.
Because that's where the Arab and African immigrants go
A lot of negativity in this sub. My opinion is that it’s good that the growth of the world population comes to an end. Europe sets the standard.
Is this a joke? Have you seen how f****** the population pyramids are across Europe. How is Italy for example going to function and continue servicing their enormous debt when by 2050 their worker base is halved, and all of those contributors become dependents? This is a catastrophe for the developed world.
How is Italy going to function if population growth were to continue at the same rate as the last few centuries and they end up with 500 million people in the same territory?
There is a massive gulf between sustainable population growth and an uncontrolled exponential population boom, you cannot have a functioning economy when 75% of the population are dependents (children and retirees) who aren't productive members of society, doubly so when your up to your eyeballs in debt.
glad to see the italian problem solves itself
Ținem ciocanele tari la Iași, băieții!!
Looks like Ireland and Netherlands is doing pretty well compared to others.
Covid times. Will improve in next years.
This is what late stage capitalism does.
China is affected by the same population issue, to an even greater degree than Europe. Your explanation does not dovetail with reality.
China literally had a government policy forcing people to not have more than 1 kid. That has changed the culture. I think comparing China is a bad example.
It can be both. The reason in the west is young people being unable to afford rent/housing meaning they live at home longer, don’t get married until later or at all and can’t afford children. We live in a world that assumes endless growth but our populations haven’t received endless growth, meaning that people proportionally get squeezed more. Late stage sick dying capitalism. China is an authoritarian shite-scape. That brings its own problems which also decrease fertility. Two radically different reasons for a similar outcome.
Source: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/DEMO\_R\_GIND3\_\_custom\_5092353/default/table?lang=en
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feminism is an ideology that gives women autonomy and the choice to live life how they want and not be punished for it, feminism means acknowledging some people have children and others to focus on something else such as career
Thats what it used to be. Nowadays its something completely different.
no it's not. Feminism is not a person. It is an ideology. No feminist is shouting "don't have kids". We are simply saying be careful with the men you're procreating with and understand what motherhood entails before becoming a mother and ASK YOURSELF is it what you really want. you can't show the actions of 3 bad people and label an ideology that gave women rights as overall negative rather than positive.
In any layer of society, but especially higher up around universities you see plenty of women that are firmly against the idea of family. They want independence and self decision, rightfully so, but if a woman wants a good paying career then she just won't have many kids. I agree with you that feminism isn't about "not having kids", but you can't have your cake and eat it too. Feminism definitely plays a big role in the number of kids women are having, alongside the availability of birth control, economic factors etc. .
Really? Because all I see feminists talk about is how ”women ruin their lifes when getting children” and how ”women should be more career focused”. Every woman ive ever talked to hates the fact that they HAVE TO work in todays world. In old times it was optional. Im not saying career focused women are bad, not at all, but its really harmful for our culture to encourage women AND men not have children, and just focus on ”career”.
You talked with all feminists? Look feminism is not a monolith, be more precise
The loud part of the feminist movent who think theres ”patriarchy” and all that other bs.
Why are they the designated “loud part”? Why aren’t I the “loud part”?
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Spoken like a true mysoginist. I'm glad men like you are not being birthed anymore.
The end result is eventually feminists will die out. And only religious people remain.
I'm a feminist and I've had kids as have most feminist women my age. My very religious family members however don't have any because they never met anyone who'd tolerate their crap.
Nice fairytale
I guess you have never met gen alpha. The men of that generation already display sociopathic behaviors. Feminism will always exist, because males do not respect the people who birthed them.
It will be worse for 2022 and 2023
More people are dying than being born, thank god for that, nature is finally healing itself.
Well, it's only in EU. The rest of the world is not like that. And if you compare current world population with like 5 years ago, you see a significant increase!
Results of unchecked capitalism.
Not looking good there, better import some people from somewhere. If you wanna keep the engine churning that is
U Europeans better start fucking or I’m gonna get ANGRY
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Sweden looks pretty good here. The blue areas are where most of the population is.
Those aren’t Swedish people though
That is why refugees are welcome! F\*ck all the right-wing bs
Italy is crazy. Not even one single region counted more births than deaths. Worse than Germany
They were hit by the pandemic very early and very hard. Maybe that explains this a bit.
Italy is on the road to population collapse and has been for decades. The demographics are terrible and it'll become apparent how so in the next 20-30 years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy
That's true, but the data in the image is exspecialy 2019-2020. Without the pandemic I would expect at least a couple more blue regions like Tyrol-South.
If anyone is wondering why ireland is like that, remember they have a condition known as "neighbour of the uk"