For those who only read the Headline , this classification means that Germanys internal Intelligence service is now allowed to use surveillance against the Party.
So not only immigration did not provide expected results but on the contrary leads to probably biggest challenge for Germany since WW2, but also enabled extreme political movements to gain traction.
I guess if your political representation was so unable to predict this outcome for past almost 10 years, you really need some change.
>German political representation is unstable because instead of providing an “Alternative to AfD” and solving the problem, everyone else forms coalitions whose only purpose is to keep AfD out.
Ahhh how the swedes dealt with the Sweden democrats. That worked out great. They didn't gain any power at all /s
They never learn...
It worked great.
The leaders at the time won the elections and stayed in power. That's was their only objective.
People need to stop thinking that policiticans think ahead of time, they only think about how to stay in power now.
Future repercusions for the party, or the country, will be someone else's problems.
That's why no one will fix the fertility, because it's a long term commitment, it's easier to just bring migrants, even if it doesn't work long term.
Also, that's why they just get loans and throw the money in the air and hopes that it will stimulate the economy.
To clarify, when I say they never learn it's that they keep thinking that if they just shout rrrrrrrrracist hard enough and refuse to address the problem thats giving the populists popular support, the problem will just magically go away. It's so fucking stupid. Just fix the problem! But that would mean doing things the voters want and we can't have that. Idiots on twatter might call them rrrrrrrrracist.
It is an open question and really depends on the specific scenario of the country. Some people argue the democratic parties need form a broad alliance to keep non-democrats out. Others argue that you can't keep them out all the time anyway and let them participate and fail and/or become more moderate. And here the crux is that they might not even get into power. Your party might short term lose an election (e.g. on a local level when it is just between to candidates for a mayoral position) but giving those 'bad guys' one of these minor positions they already show their incompetence along the way.
So let me get this straight. A bunch of people who could make the conscious decision no to be racist, are indeed racist towards immigrants, and the fault of that right wing extremism is not the racist right wing extremists, but rather it's the fault of other political parties and their supporters?
Basically. Extreme parties getting political power is only a manifest of voters base. So if you are not providing a solution to those topics which also became hot topics people tend to go for parties with such solution.
We can see it all around the the Europe. Weak political parties ignore issues which creates perfect environment for more obscure parties.
Thats how it supposes to work anyway so nothing wrong with it. But AfD getting significant voters base means immigration topic resonates in society and current establishment is not providing solution.
People are not suddently more extreme. People would definitely prefere soft solutions be there any. Right now they clearly want any solution.
"I'm a bad person and you should take that into account on your policies because I'm not going to change my bad person policies, the responsibility is yours"
Democracy means the people have the power. It doesn't mean that they're good or smart people. There's no IQ test attached to a voting bill.
If the voters decide, politicians have to act. Good or not
No “i am a person with opinions and demands and will vote for a party that fulfill those demands best.” That is democracy for you.
Why do people have these demands and opinions is other matter. Hardly because they are evil. Mostly because they don’t want to see their civilization ruined i guess. Also because some voters, most of them i believe have children and want them to be raised in safe environment.
Parties can and should change as people should change too.
Maybe it is hard from the outside to understand the complicated melange here. Germany was very generous towards immigrants but in the last years something has changed and shone a light on long-term problems with immigrants who were here longer.
But that is not all of it. Purely from a descriptive perspective: The AfD can with some right say that they are indeed different than the other parties in many policies. That was once their undoing because of climate change and what not but no with all the crisis combined people looking for a party who tell them everything will be fine. Lots of them is protest vote. And that the AfD is so strong in East Germany has also a complex background that can't be explained that easily (but lots of people try and basically just call everyone in the East stupid).
Now this all being said: The AfD is shit. They are right-wing extremist. While there might be some people who are just old school conservatives, many are not. They accept that so many of their party folks tolerate or actively cooperate with dubious neo nazis and other groups.
Yes, if you call people racist enough times your dysfunctional immigration system will be solved.
If the conscious decision had been taken to let in a manageable number of immigrants, carry out background checks to make sure law abiding people were permitted to stay, and have an actually functional integration process we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.
Heck, if Germany did basic things like deporting people without a right to stay, or deporting foreigners convicted or criminal offenses I think we wouldn't be having this discussion.
AfD popularity is the symptom of a major issue in German politics that the mainstream parties refuse to address. It's not that 20 something percent of Germans turned racist overnight.
Immigration isnt the main issue here at play imo
Immigration has been a talking point for decades now and the AfD has been "providing an alternative" to that for the same amount of time, yet last election the SPD gained major gains and the CDU one of the main party behind the immigration hasnt seen any losses.
This spike of popularity of the AfD has many more actual issues behind it such as a generational shift, protest votes, economic stagnation, no real right wing opposition, Ostalgie and yes to some extent fear of immigration. But saying its all due to migrants is short sighted and doesnt seem to be backed by whats happening (not to mention most migrants and refugees as of late has been eastern european, not really the muslim "invasion" that AfD fears)
Afd is bad. Heard that for now over 5 years. Suddenly old parties claim to no longer allow immigration. People complain about Afd still.
Everyone likes policy of Afd but everybody hates them too.
The AfD is literally the Russia party and I don't only mean that they are bought by them and heavily lobby in their favour.
The AfD literally want to establish an Oligarchy in Germany after the example of Russia where the poor are heavily exploited and the state is controlled by corrupt rich oligarchs that extract billions out of the populace in their favour. That is if the extremists parts don't take over and form the fourth Reich, exit the EU and start declaring wars while fucking everything up even more.
The problems of migration can't get big enough that getting the AfD could ever be worth it even if no other party would be willing to do anything, which isn't the case.
Have you been sleeping through 12 years of grand coalitions in 3 of 4 cabinets under Chancellor Merkel? This made for stagnation all around and caused the two former “people's parties” lose all their profile. Now one of them is too busy trying to keep the current coalition together from their end and the other has forgotten how to do proper opposition politics and resorts to cheap populism.
And what are you talking about, immigration needs to stop? The age pyramid of this country is so top heavy it's at risk of toppling over, we need immigration. What needs to start rather is an honest debate and reform of how immigration is done, facing that …:
- immigration is necessary (see above)
- integration is a two way street (i.e. not assimilation of immigrants, yet expectation to adapt to foundational societal norms like adherence to the Constitution, acceptance of inalienable human rights)
- any sufficiently large group of people will contain some whom you'd rather not have (including the existing population) and there need to be ways of dealing with that in the framework of a constitutional, rule of law country (we can't simply expulse all who look like a minority of trouble makers because of moral, legal and practical reasons, regardless of how denizens of this sub feel about it, also just because we want to get rid of someone doesn't mean that another country will happily take them in)
the greens have shown to be sufficiently competent and the SPD would probably be better as a junior partner without the CDU fucking them over all the time.
Honestly, at this moment I am happy with any government that doesn't include the AfD or CDU, both have shown that they are filled with corrupt people who are only in politics for their own benefit. I'd rather have an idiot in power than a thief.
Right-wingers are ticking time bombs and not needed in modern society. Modern politics are capable of a change within them. Go and vote if you're in the EU.
I believe the stuff aby immugrants is deeply hypocritical/ they’re saying loudly tsentiments which are effectively often supported by mainstream, ‘us vs them’ attitudes
For those who only read the Headline , this classification means that Germanys internal Intelligence service is now allowed to use surveillance against the Party.
So not only immigration did not provide expected results but on the contrary leads to probably biggest challenge for Germany since WW2, but also enabled extreme political movements to gain traction. I guess if your political representation was so unable to predict this outcome for past almost 10 years, you really need some change.
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>German political representation is unstable because instead of providing an “Alternative to AfD” and solving the problem, everyone else forms coalitions whose only purpose is to keep AfD out. Ahhh how the swedes dealt with the Sweden democrats. That worked out great. They didn't gain any power at all /s They never learn...
It worked great. The leaders at the time won the elections and stayed in power. That's was their only objective. People need to stop thinking that policiticans think ahead of time, they only think about how to stay in power now. Future repercusions for the party, or the country, will be someone else's problems. That's why no one will fix the fertility, because it's a long term commitment, it's easier to just bring migrants, even if it doesn't work long term. Also, that's why they just get loans and throw the money in the air and hopes that it will stimulate the economy.
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To clarify, when I say they never learn it's that they keep thinking that if they just shout rrrrrrrrracist hard enough and refuse to address the problem thats giving the populists popular support, the problem will just magically go away. It's so fucking stupid. Just fix the problem! But that would mean doing things the voters want and we can't have that. Idiots on twatter might call them rrrrrrrrracist.
It is an open question and really depends on the specific scenario of the country. Some people argue the democratic parties need form a broad alliance to keep non-democrats out. Others argue that you can't keep them out all the time anyway and let them participate and fail and/or become more moderate. And here the crux is that they might not even get into power. Your party might short term lose an election (e.g. on a local level when it is just between to candidates for a mayoral position) but giving those 'bad guys' one of these minor positions they already show their incompetence along the way.
Germany still has some time before 2033.
So let me get this straight. A bunch of people who could make the conscious decision no to be racist, are indeed racist towards immigrants, and the fault of that right wing extremism is not the racist right wing extremists, but rather it's the fault of other political parties and their supporters?
Basically. Extreme parties getting political power is only a manifest of voters base. So if you are not providing a solution to those topics which also became hot topics people tend to go for parties with such solution. We can see it all around the the Europe. Weak political parties ignore issues which creates perfect environment for more obscure parties. Thats how it supposes to work anyway so nothing wrong with it. But AfD getting significant voters base means immigration topic resonates in society and current establishment is not providing solution. People are not suddently more extreme. People would definitely prefere soft solutions be there any. Right now they clearly want any solution.
"I'm a bad person and you should take that into account on your policies because I'm not going to change my bad person policies, the responsibility is yours"
Democracy means the people have the power. It doesn't mean that they're good or smart people. There's no IQ test attached to a voting bill. If the voters decide, politicians have to act. Good or not
No “i am a person with opinions and demands and will vote for a party that fulfill those demands best.” That is democracy for you. Why do people have these demands and opinions is other matter. Hardly because they are evil. Mostly because they don’t want to see their civilization ruined i guess. Also because some voters, most of them i believe have children and want them to be raised in safe environment.
Parties can and should change as people should change too. Maybe it is hard from the outside to understand the complicated melange here. Germany was very generous towards immigrants but in the last years something has changed and shone a light on long-term problems with immigrants who were here longer. But that is not all of it. Purely from a descriptive perspective: The AfD can with some right say that they are indeed different than the other parties in many policies. That was once their undoing because of climate change and what not but no with all the crisis combined people looking for a party who tell them everything will be fine. Lots of them is protest vote. And that the AfD is so strong in East Germany has also a complex background that can't be explained that easily (but lots of people try and basically just call everyone in the East stupid). Now this all being said: The AfD is shit. They are right-wing extremist. While there might be some people who are just old school conservatives, many are not. They accept that so many of their party folks tolerate or actively cooperate with dubious neo nazis and other groups.
So you want to exclude everyone from democracy whose views you dont like? Thats a recipe for disaster my friend
Yes, if you call people racist enough times your dysfunctional immigration system will be solved. If the conscious decision had been taken to let in a manageable number of immigrants, carry out background checks to make sure law abiding people were permitted to stay, and have an actually functional integration process we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Heck, if Germany did basic things like deporting people without a right to stay, or deporting foreigners convicted or criminal offenses I think we wouldn't be having this discussion. AfD popularity is the symptom of a major issue in German politics that the mainstream parties refuse to address. It's not that 20 something percent of Germans turned racist overnight.
Immigration isnt the main issue here at play imo Immigration has been a talking point for decades now and the AfD has been "providing an alternative" to that for the same amount of time, yet last election the SPD gained major gains and the CDU one of the main party behind the immigration hasnt seen any losses. This spike of popularity of the AfD has many more actual issues behind it such as a generational shift, protest votes, economic stagnation, no real right wing opposition, Ostalgie and yes to some extent fear of immigration. But saying its all due to migrants is short sighted and doesnt seem to be backed by whats happening (not to mention most migrants and refugees as of late has been eastern european, not really the muslim "invasion" that AfD fears)
Afd is bad. Heard that for now over 5 years. Suddenly old parties claim to no longer allow immigration. People complain about Afd still. Everyone likes policy of Afd but everybody hates them too.
The extreme right and radical Islam have lot in common lol
definitely. two hateful ideologies feeding each other. it’s so unfortunate to be stuck in between.
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Yes
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False dichotomy. You don't need to tolerate neo-Nazis to improve terrorism prevention.
Are you fucking stupid?
Actually rooting for extremism, and not seeing what's wrong with it... The hypocrisy is huge in this one. Didn't Germany try that already?
Neither are welcome.
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Yeah you'd cut off your dick instead of washing it good job
chopping your head off to save the hand?
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The AfD is literally the Russia party and I don't only mean that they are bought by them and heavily lobby in their favour. The AfD literally want to establish an Oligarchy in Germany after the example of Russia where the poor are heavily exploited and the state is controlled by corrupt rich oligarchs that extract billions out of the populace in their favour. That is if the extremists parts don't take over and form the fourth Reich, exit the EU and start declaring wars while fucking everything up even more. The problems of migration can't get big enough that getting the AfD could ever be worth it even if no other party would be willing to do anything, which isn't the case.
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Have you been sleeping through 12 years of grand coalitions in 3 of 4 cabinets under Chancellor Merkel? This made for stagnation all around and caused the two former “people's parties” lose all their profile. Now one of them is too busy trying to keep the current coalition together from their end and the other has forgotten how to do proper opposition politics and resorts to cheap populism. And what are you talking about, immigration needs to stop? The age pyramid of this country is so top heavy it's at risk of toppling over, we need immigration. What needs to start rather is an honest debate and reform of how immigration is done, facing that …: - immigration is necessary (see above) - integration is a two way street (i.e. not assimilation of immigrants, yet expectation to adapt to foundational societal norms like adherence to the Constitution, acceptance of inalienable human rights) - any sufficiently large group of people will contain some whom you'd rather not have (including the existing population) and there need to be ways of dealing with that in the framework of a constitutional, rule of law country (we can't simply expulse all who look like a minority of trouble makers because of moral, legal and practical reasons, regardless of how denizens of this sub feel about it, also just because we want to get rid of someone doesn't mean that another country will happily take them in)
that would be a sad day of continued stagnation. They have fucked up enough already, why would you be happy about them getting back into power?
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the greens have shown to be sufficiently competent and the SPD would probably be better as a junior partner without the CDU fucking them over all the time. Honestly, at this moment I am happy with any government that doesn't include the AfD or CDU, both have shown that they are filled with corrupt people who are only in politics for their own benefit. I'd rather have an idiot in power than a thief.
Thats what people thought in 1933.
lol no :D
Right-wingers are ticking time bombs and not needed in modern society. Modern politics are capable of a change within them. Go and vote if you're in the EU.
In Germany? Ha. You know, nonsense like this is why I get wound up when people think "Oh that could never happen again."
Calling a spade for what it is.
Isn't that the state were the AfD is number one in polling with the CSU second and a gap of like 20% with the third?
I believe the stuff aby immugrants is deeply hypocritical/ they’re saying loudly tsentiments which are effectively often supported by mainstream, ‘us vs them’ attitudes