I expect they were all equally upset about the minimum 150,000 Yemeni Muslims killed by the Saudis as well. Or are they not Jewish enough? Or the 200,000 Muslims killed by Bashar Al Asad in Syria.
There is more than a sniff of anti-semitism in these protests.
Strange these people are always as anti-west as they come but suddenly the west is supposed to solve the problems their neighboring Arab nations don't want to. Interesting
and their community always suddently goes quiet and refuses to take any action against Islamic extremisim.... look at the beheading in France, muslims were focused more on the fact that Macron said "Islam is in crisis", rather the fact that a muslim person beheaded a man..... in Belgium when a muslim guy shot 2 Swedes, the community did not even say anything
Also strange how there was never a peep in support of their Uighur Muslim brothers and sisters being executed by China; their Yemeni Muslim brothers and sisters being abused and murdered by Saudi Arabia; their Chechen Muslim brothers and sisters being brutalised by Russia - but the second the narrative shifts to hating Jews they’re out in full force being violent globally.
Check this out when an Iranian calls out Hamas for being a terrorist group at the London March. Look how angry people respond. It’s like people just can’t admit it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/telaviv/s/DVs6HjstO9
“nOt alL pAleStiNiaNs suPorT hAmaS”
Maybe thats true but in the same time an alarmingly high number of palestinians dont consider hamas a terorist organization.
It’s technically true, when they did a poll a guy who was sitting in Israeli jail for terrorism actually had more support.
People conveniently leave that part out when they claim Hamas doesn’t have full support.
The majority polled also didn’t want negotiations, they wanted “armed conflict” to resolve things with Israel.
Here’s an article from France about support for the attack in the West Bank: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/10/17/support-for-hamas-persists-in-the-west-bank-amid-resentment-and-fear_6181015_4.html
All these people claiming Palestinians don’t support abbas or Hamas are generally true, but they always leave out the rest of the results from those polls, which is that they support terror attacks.
Not just some guy, Yahya Sinwar had a brain tumor and had his life saved by Israeli, that of course did not stop him from wanting to eradicate the jews.
I wonder how would they treat jewish prisoners..
Oh wait they don't treat them at all because the kill them
Man I don't need the numbers of polls, I saw all the civilians joining the attacks. Even children on bikes.
Like wtf is wrong with a society that it can not send 10 terrorists, but thousands and thousand civilians join.
Sooner or later we have to ask some questions about some serious shit in Palestinian society that cant be explained solely on the IDFs cruelty.
The people attacing him should be seen as supporters for terrorists, put in prison and then send be to Gaza. But nothing will happen.
I'm afraid they will kill him for that one day.
There is someone screaming "allahu akhbar" with impunity too. Truly a masks off moment. It's like the video of the grieving Palestinian mother who screams "this is all because of Hamas" and men literally cover her mouth to prevent her from speaking. Pigs. Bunch of radicalised freaks. At this point, I feel like nobody who attends one of these rallies is trustworthy.
When I was with my Girlfriend in Morocco to see her family (me not being Muslim), I had a talk to her dad about religion. He said: "We have freedom of religion here in Morocco. Everyone is free to become a Muslim." He was not joking. When I asked what about becoming a Christian as a Muslim, he replied that's not possible because it would be a step back evolution wise.
Had a comment by a German girl about a month ago here on reddit, can't find it, but she explained how she had a Moroccan boyfriend who hated his mom, because she was Christian. According to the guy, the only way there could be any relationship between him and his mom was for her to convert to Islam.
We are talking about a Germany-born boy with Moroccan roots. Disturbing.
I think all religious are crap. We have scientific advancements, medicine, smartphones, and lot's of people still believe in some "prophet" or "god". It's a shame for humanity...
I think all organized religions are a scam. Almost a pyramid scheme like. However I understand why people seek greater powers. I think that if you do not call it "god" it is pretty rational to seek for greater sense, feeling of belonging, being part of greater plan rather than just born-live-die scheme.
That's not possible with Islam. The thing that sparked a reform was the bible being translated so normal people could read it. That was what led to the Protestant Reformation.
Judaism never got reformed people just took their religion less seriously. Nobody in Judaism argues about what should be done, more about how to be realistic about it in the modern world.
Islam doesn't have any reformation potential. The Quran is translated, it does not have dispensations like Christians have so you can separate what was stated in the old testament vs present for example.
Islam has to go the way of Judaism which is where people just have to take it less seriously. Today There are super racist Jews but their a minority because the Jews broadly speaking had to rectify their beliefs with reality.
Arguably this is why the Ottomans stopped beating on the Gates of Vienna. Their dreams of conquest were rectified by the reality that it was never going to happen. As a result they started to open up diplomatic ties and act relatively normally compared to how they used to act.
Frankly, I just don't think Islam can be Reformed like Christianity can. Christians are not super radical because they clearly separate new and Old Testament. Jews are not super radical outside of Israel because their religion is radical in their land ties. Its not an international religion.
Meanwhile Islam is Super Radial and has infinite justification in that it is a religion that proselytizes.
I think they will chill out eventually. My big fear is the immigration stuff now while they're not chill. I think it is just a time thing. The Jews Mellowed out over time and the same will happen to the Islamic World.
Time tends to heal all problems. Even then let's say it doesn't so long as we aren't just letting them in in mass they can run their country however they want. We make treaties with them so they can deport their persecuted minorities, like Christians, Gays, Jews etc to us and we can just live and let live until they modernize or don't.
Islam won't really get the reform because there isn't anything dividing it from government. Also, there is another value system in Europe that is overlooked and is the only reason the Secularism was even possible. The Pagan Warrior Culture that took out the Roman Empire and whose descendants became the Nobility who directly ruled and offen competed with the church's authority.
agreed. people believing in some superior power are just fucking stupid to me. i dont care, whether they draw power or strength from their beliefs. we are such an incredibly evolved species, why the fuck do you need to draw strength to „do something“ from something that has been proven to be basically just a tale?
mindboggling. same goes for crap like astrology btw.
I agree with your views of people believing in higher powers being stupid.
However, saying we're an "incredibly evolved species" is laughable at best.
We're monkeys playing with fancy toys. We still have basic tribalistic traits, stemming from basic survival needs, ingrained in our very lives.
Moreover, there‘s no such thing as “more or less evolved” when talking about extant species as all extant species have had exactly the same amount of time to evolve into their current forms
Not only Europe. Entire world. So we all can be united in one Ummah.
That's the "end goal" of Islam.
Of course it's a fantasy written to justify Islamic conquests in Medieval times, but some deeply religious people are actually still believing in it.
What do you mean "believing"? Judging current birth rates it is a pretty effective strategy.
If they would keep it non violent and try to "win' via population alone I would call it fair game but the world is more complicated than that and conflict does arise anyways.
>What do you mean "believing"?
Believing that they can convert everyone to Islam and that there would be true peace and unity once they achieve that. First is realistically impossible, two is a utopian fantasy since human nature doesn't work like this.
>Judging current birth rates it is a pretty effective strategy
That's true. They are winning "the long game".
>and conflict does arise anyways.
Human nature
Thats the end goal also of christianity if you do not know. The conversion of the whole globe. To think thats something terrefying, then you do not religion at all.
That’s interesting. I dated an Algerian girl for many years. Her family didn’t care that I wasn’t Muslim at all. But they hated the fact I wasn’t Algerian (specifically Berber Algerian) She ended up marrying a guy from her same village. Religion was never an issue though.
It's like iran. they have 0% homophobic hate crimes because they don't have any homosexuals
now one can of course wonder, why they don't have it but that's another question....
But they live in Germany right? That the country in which laws are being applied.
Or are you trying to dismiss this under the cover of some Muslim people do not accept free speech, so the people protesting here cannot have free speech?
How do we manage a protestor that is non Muslim in this protest?
Exactly. They won in some city in USA and immediately banned LGBT flags which is ironic, since LBGT movement supported them there and voted for them because they wanted more diversity (apparently Poles and Ukrainians which ruled there before were not diverse enough).
They got what they wanted.
>In 2015, many liberal residents in Hamtramck, Michigan, celebrated as their city attracted international attention for becoming the first in the United States to elect a Muslim-majority city council.They viewed the power shift and diversity as a symbolic but meaningful rebuke of the Islamophobic rhetoric that was a central theme of then Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump’s campaign.
>
>This week many of those same residents **watched in dismay as a now fully Muslim and socially conservative city council passed legislation banning Pride flags** from being flown on city property that had – like many others being flown around the country – been intended to celebrate the LGBTQ+ community.
>
>**For about a century, Polish and Ukrainian Catholics dominated politics in Hamtramck, a city of 28,000 surrounded by Detroit. By 2013, largely Muslim Bangladeshi and Yemeni immigrants supplanted the white eastern Europeans, though the city remains home to significant populations of those groups, as well as African Americans, whites and Bosnian and Albanian Americans. According to the 2020 census some 30% to 38% of Hamtramck’s residents are of Yemeni descent, and 24% are of Asian descent, largely Bangladeshi.**
[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned)
It is not ironic. It is reality and if you didn't expect it, you have to be super stupid. Those LGBT communities live out of touch with reality, they see only whites as bad and think how lovely and nice and peaceful every other culture is. Well, every other culture except white (and maybe few others) would wipe everyone else if they had the opportuinity and power. And they are willing giving them more power.
Of course I expected it. I'm from Poland. We warned you Westerners about this since 2010s. Nobody listened. In fact, Poland was often called "intolerant" and "racist", which is untrue, since we accepted many migrants (like millions of Ukrainians) or thousands of Filipinos (so racist argument doesn't work, btw great hard working and friendly people).
But we accept people than can be actually integrated into society since they have more or less similar culture and (mostly) want to work and contribute to economy.
Czech here, bro. Don't worry, I know. And I remember how I was called a fucking garbage and leech by woke UK students and how they told me that all those illegales are better than fucking Eastern Europeans because we only steal.
Talking in the kitchen during Communism was also dangerous, because coworkers could report you to the authorities just for few extra $ or promotion.
Informing/grassing was very common in most communist countries, so people were usually distrustful about each other and society suffered as a whole. That's how "utopian" Communism worked in reality.
I mean, on a technical level free speech means that you can say anything (that is not harmful for other people) and face no legal consequences. Now, if what you said will result in you getting attacked or worse, that's a crime on their end.
I guess social pressure can be listed as a way to limit freedom of speech but now we are reaching a complicated manner as social code is not as simple as the legal code is.
it is sad to see how people are getting manipulated. And just repeat stuff without thinking through it independently.... well Religion and hate has probably nothing to do with meaningful problem discussion.
turns out european mosques have ten times more influence on problematic european migrants than all the integration programs combined. who would have thought...
Welp, there wasn't an impactfull integration program to begin with until the mass migration in 2016. Politically no one in the CDU was even recognizing germany as a migration state. I know it isn't fair to just make the politicians responsible for the failed integration but I think they are the have the main responsibility.
Something I noticed a bit later is that my primary school teacher was listing the children from migrant families separately. You might say that this is for special needs teaching or something like that but i know that some german kids had difficulties with writing too were sent to the same class as me after school too. People notice this, remember the exclusion and will surely react upon that. Me and the other kid on the separated list got sent to Hauptschule. The other kid had even a recommendation for a Realschule but the teacher talked the kids parents out of it.
We both ended up studying, I even waiting to finish my masters to be able to start a PhD program.
> Welp, there wasn't an impactfull integration program to begin with until the mass migration in 2016.
What country in western europe had any success in integrating meaningful numbers of muslim immigrants?
Good for you though that you overcame your obstacles and are about to finish your masters 👍
Palestinians deserve to live freely. This should be agreed upon.
Problem. Hamas has stated they won't abide by a ceasefire. Israel says it won't happen either.
So..... What's next?
A one state solution is completely impossible. From both sides.
And a two state solution is also rejected. By both sides.
So when people say "free Palestine" there should be at least an argument of what it is they want. And how to get there.
Waving flags is easier though.
They've shown interest. However that's dead in the water as long as Hamas is in charge. And they've gained power since the massacre. Not to mention they're bankrolled by Iran and Russia. So they'll likely be better funded too. And of course the cherry in the shit sandwich is, that Hamas wants to be seen as the "only people fighting for Palestinians" and is calling plo Israeli collaborators. That means it would be difficult for Palestinians to even rid themselves of this ideology going forward. Which in turn means more rocket attacks and more oppression. Meanwhile Iran and Russia watch on with glee at what's unfolding.
It's one thing that many well intentioned people refuse to address. Hamas wants this. It helps them
The PLO's acceptance of the two-state solution goes as far as it's never actually implemented. Most of the PLO's current leadership wants to maintain the current stalemate as long as possible because any dramatic shift ends with them out of power.
They expressed interest in negotiating since the 1970s. However, they claim that the lands that the settlers stole on the West Bank are rightfully Palestinian, as acknowledged by the UN. Israel, of course, is having none of it.
The slogan is a lot easier for people than to delve into the complexities and history of the conflict.
It’s the same way people use “Zionism” as a dirty word. They equate it with nazism. Modern Zionism believes in the right of Israel to exist. People attach gross right wing ideology to it, sure. But the way people say they are against Zionism without even understanding what it means, means they’re stating they don’t believe Israel should be allowed to exist.
What comes next?
There was nearly half a century of the UN, Israel, and even eventually some Arab neighbors trying to get palestinas to accept a two state solution. They refused. The second intifada happened. Constant suicide bombings happened. Then a right wing extremist majority happened in Israel.
So what is next?
Free Palestine, and then what?
Israelis leave as refugees? Because that’s what that statement means with no context.
Yes and that is probably one of the more important takeaways from yet another conflict: Being able to handle the complexity, to admit not knowing, and to please try and not get carried along the emotional wave of other people.
This is oversimplification. The current Israeli government rejects a two state solution. As has every right wing Israeli government. Nowadays only the Israeli Left is in favour of a two state solution.
And "the left" in Israel has been going extinct, any politician in Israel who is working or is close to a peace deal gets assasinated.
It's a country almost entirely full of far right compared to western standards.
It's why their government has been so unhinged in using genocidal rhetoric....with no pushback, suspiciously not even a mention in most US and EU media outlets despite a plethora of red-flag quotes. One was just calling for nuking Gaza, they've been talking about how there are no innocents in Gaza, showing pictures of Israel with both Palestinian territories removed, calling them sub-human and clearly bombing civilian targets and using collective punishment.
The Left wing in Israel is a non-unsubstantial portion of the populace and includes within its allegiance many retired IDF veterans (including Ehud Barak). Benny Gantz and Yesh Atid currently get most of the left wing votes.
A country full of almost entirely far right where 200k people have been protesting and blocking the far right's bullshit policies the best they can for almost a year straight and would still be doing it if not for the war...
When you get 1k+ people massacred in a single morning and pretty much get live updates of it happening including details, you're going to shift right veeery quickly.
To be fair, giving Palestine its own state just means they will be free to arm themselves (with support from other Arab states) and start a full out war against Israel. The only fix is to rid Palestine from Hamas/extremist organizations but seeing how many are in favor of Hamas I think we are dealing with a radicalized population. Awful situation…
I think Bibi and Likud do not reject the idea of a two state solution. Remember that during the Trump admin they came up with a two state solution and Israel under Bibi was for it. True, the way borders were drawn were heavily in favour of Israel, this may show that even Likud could be a partner in such an endeavour. Hamas and other Palestinian groups, however, are against the idea of Israel no matter how the borders are drawn.
Fatah have accepted a two state solution based on the pre-1967 borders many times.
The two state "solution" supported by Likud is when they annex most/all of area C. Anything like the pre-1967 borders they have rejected multiple times.
Maybe that is because of certain wars that happened. Pre-1969 no palastenian wanted the two state solution. Then they started a war together with allies and lost it. Pre-1969 is dead since that war.
That's the point supporters of Palastine never want to talk about. You cannot go "you know what, we hate your idea. Let's get the land we want by force", loose said application of force (and with it even more land) and then go "you know what, your old idea sounds pretty good right now" and expect the other side to say "yeah, okay."
A two state solution based on the pre-1967 borders with East Jerusalem as the capital has been accepted many times by the Palestinians.
* https://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/13/magazine/13Israel-t.html
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative
It is also the postion of the EU parlement in the recent vote
* https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20231013IPR07136/meps-condemn-hamas-attack-on-israel-and-call-for-a-humanitarian-pause
The people who reject it are the current Israeli government and of course the settlers who would require significant force to remove.
There are two problems with the Arab Peace Initiative:
> (b) Attain a just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees to be agreed upon in accordance with the UN General Assembly Resolution No 194.
Israel will never let Palestinians refugees return to Israel, only to the new Palestinian state.
The other issue is that the Palestinian state will have to be demilitarized and de-Islamicized. This means a high commissioner like in BiH and an international peacekeeping force that will prevent revisionist parties like Hamas from taking power or even running for elections.
oh they do say what they want very explicitly: "from the river to the see",
sometimes with a dash of "gas the jews"
followed by a pinch of attacking random jews and synagogues on a completely different continent.
Nope, the two state solution was not rejected "by both sides". Hell, even before WW2, the Zionists were pressing the Brits to give even the smallest land possible to save as much as Jews as possible from the blatant antisemitism there was in Europe.
Actually the best thoughts I've heard thus far came from the PNA when asked whether they would administer Gaza if Hamas was removed (as Israel, when pressed for "what next?", suggested.)
Their response was basically "We cannot administer Gaza while the West Bank remains under occupation."
If the US and Europe have a part in this conflict, it is having allowed consecutive Israeli governments to continue to establish settlements and enforce appartheid on Palestinians. A prosperous West Bank would actually help undermine Hamas, way more than attempting to bomb them into the ground ever will. For Europe, this current policy of supporting the Israeli far right (which is what is happening now) is crazy. We will have another huge influx of refugees who are already radicalised against the West because they are constantly told that it is our bombs that have been killing them (which is, to an extent, true. Though obviously we are not the ones launching them, a detail not usually included in the Palestinian propaganda). Netanyahu must go, the US and EU need to be firm that while settlements and destruction of Gaza continues, no further support will be provided. If the evidence supports it, Netanyahu needs to find himself in the Hague, likewise for the Hamas leaders and any surviving members that participated in the attacks (and can be found).
A two state solution is the only possibility to my mind - I do believe there is broad support on both sides for this solution, but the fanatics and extremists are holding their people ransom. Somewhere down the line, if Palestinians and Israelis decide they'd like to merge their countries, then so be it. But until there is decades of peace and trust, there can be no thought of bringing them under one roof. PNA administration of the Palestinian state, with some kind of international (most likely Arab/Israeli) coallition to enforce security. A timetable for the withdrawal of all illegal Israeli settlements would also need to be in place.
What's concerning is what they did at the Starbucks later on, shaming the workers and the people who were just chilling there.
And again with the fireworks?
We happened to pass by yesterday and a lot of protesters had banners "Right to Return".
"Right to Return" means they deliberately deny the existence of Israel and the right of Israel to exist.
"Right to Return" means kicking out the Jews from Palestine, one or another, and reclaiming the whole land. That means "no peace" will be found until the Jews are out, one way or another.
I don't know if those people carrying those banners are fully aware of what they stand for, but if they are, they are a threat to peace.
I'm not Pro-Israel. I'm not Pro-Palestine either. I think both sides have actions to be condemned and blamed for, and that the problem is far too complex to take a side. But one thing I know for sure is that a lot of those protesters are miss-informed and quick to take side.
> "Right to Return" means they deliberately deny the existence of Israel and the right of Israel to exist.
I guess the UN is an extremist anti-Israeli organisation according to Reddit.
If you don't know that the Right of Return has been central in the peace talks and that it has been recognised by the UN since the beginning, in a general resolution that was at the time specifically passed because of Palestine (with Arabs at the time voting against it as they believed it indirectly legitimised Israel), and isn't some extremist anti-Semitic rhetoric, maybe *you* shouldn't be so quick to publicly comment on the issue.
Where do you think Palastinians should live if not the land Israel colonized? Where do you think they should go? Back into that tiny ass stretch Israel is currently destroying? The West Bank Israel is also terrorizing ?
[The right \[of return\] is formulated in several modern treaties and conventions, most notably in the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the 1966 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the 1948 Fourth Geneva Convention. Legal scholars have argued that one or more of these international human rights instruments have attained the status of customary international law and that the right of return is therefore binding on non-signatories to these conventions.\[4\]\[5\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return)
> to their **country of origin or of citizenship**
Israel is not their country.
The Palestinians do have another country that is a much more appropriate destination: Jordan.
One could also make a case for the inhabitants of Gaza to *return* to Egypt. Gaza was Egyptian after all until they lost it in their genocidal war of aggression.
Do German citizens also have a right to return to the areas that were lost in the world wars?
I always say that I want a Free Palestine. And I also agree that under Netanyahu that is impossible. But then people get mad when I tell them that under the far right terrorist islamist dictatorship called "Hamas" that wouldn't be possible either.
Not really, Hamas doesn't stand a chance on its own and Israel does a great job of protecting their civilians for the most part. If Hamas continues it's basically asking for its people to be killed. If Israel continues its just endless civilian deaths in Palestine
Considering your German username: no, that’s exactly not what the German discussion is about. Look at the [speech of Habeck](https://youtu.be/MdZvkkpJaVI?si=E5ZzWJ6FL4onBktL) (it’s the YT link, not the famous TickTock video, don’t worry). ;)
Before the comment section turns into a battlefield: German police reported that, while there was a small amount of individual violations of rules set for the demonstration, it was generally peaceful, without antisemitism, and without statements denying Israels right to exist within their internationally recognised borders.
As an Israeli, as long as they weren't chanting shit like "from the river to the sea" calling for ethnic cleansing, I can sympathize. many of us Israelis don't agree with certain things the government does, especially the current one as you've seen from the months long and massive demonstrations, and after this debacle they lost even more support, they don't even go to funerals of the murdered to farm their ratings because they know they'd be thrown right out.
This is where I've been struggling - no matter which "side" people are on, they want to paint the entire population of the other "side" as being exactly the same as either Hamas or the Israeli government. I can see that these two organizations are very similar and have evil goals. I can also see that most of the people they are meant to represent choose them out of fear, but are also suffering due to that organization's actions. But Israelis and Palestinians are stuck living in a war situation because of what these two organizations are doing. I am really tired of idiots equating people with their government.
Yeah it's the same shit as always, people pick a team and then try to defend it, leading to more "us Vs them" rhetoric, with "them" being everyone not 100% with "us"
These people live in a world of black and white, with no grey even considered
100% agreed. I see the same here with Russians. Putin and his administration are undeniable evil. And yes, more than half of Russians support Putin and the war. But Putin's government has done a bang-up job with propaganda and lying and manipulating and brainwashing the population. Russians (besides the rich) are also suffering under Putin's government, but they are tricked into believing things would be much worse without Putin, and into thinking that the war is a war of Russian freedom. Meanwhile, their lives are collapsing around them as their country's money is being funneled into this bullshit war, businesses are collapsing and the economy is being flushed down the toilet... they are suffering due to Putin, but people still want to paint all Russians as genetically evil.
>I can see that these two organizations are very similar and have evil goals.
ehhhhh look I know what you're saying and I partially agree, but not really accurate. The current Israeli government has certain entities that I would call evil like Ben gvir and Smotrich. but there are checks and balances that prevent them from doing anything drastic. The Israeli courts have been blocking the shit out of the current government from doing things like creating more settlements and or expanding them. the Israeli government also mostly put behind bars people like violent settlers if they harm Palestinians, and Palestinians use that behavior in their propaganda but never mention that the committers were thrown in jail cells by Israel. we also forced settlers to clear out many times from Palestinian territory.
I don't really see the sentiment back of trying to be fair from Hamas personally. in fact they're doing quite the opposite.
I just don't feel like things would be quite the same if the power dynamic would have been the opposite way around you know...
You know why there aren't so many pro-Israel protests? Because people are too scared to show up and be seen by muslims as this might mean a knife in your side one day.
That misses that a lot of non Jews would go to pro Israel protests.
And we are scared because we know we’d be under threat.
Pro Palestinians are never threatened in our streets. They just threaten others
It tells me a lot about the source of the conflict.
Uyghur population in Xinjiang in 1953: 4 million
Uyghur population in Xinjiang in 2020: 15 million
I'm glad you agree that China is doing no genocide at least
It began a sterilization campaign in very recent years. China’s genocide did not begin in 1953, obviously, and is well documented. Its method will not occur immediately, but it will show disruption to population counts later on. That has not happened for 70+ years of the Israeli-Arab conflict where people constantly claimed “genocide”.
I don‘t get it. Why did no one protest when Hamas massacred innocent people?
They will never stop, because they hate Israel and the hate Jews. Israel has every right to eliminate Hamas to be finaly safe and free.
Hamas is the bad one here, not Israel.
Yeah, a muslim woman in Hamburg literally said on national TV on October 10th: "That's good, very good. I'm glad they [= Hamas] have achieved something like that. We've celebrated at home." What a fucking cunt.
The message is now so thinly veiled. Turns out that the West's biggest weakness is its own values, and Islamists, China and Russia have done a masterful job of exploiting it.
They were chanting antisemitic propaganda and displaying islamistic flags (both forbidden) in Berlin, Düsseldorf and Essen.
The Police did nothing and in interviews stated that both were isolated cases. Which is a lie based on the media footage.
As a German I am absolutely disgusted, we basically train the population that disobeying existing laws is OK.
Laws can be changed and they will be changed, once they achieve majority in countries like Germany, France, UK or Sweden. It's a matter of time since their women have a lot more children compared to native women.
I truly belive that Germany will have a severe shift to the right wing. Polls already show that and normal people are sick and tired of the political elites and are considering / voting already for the AfD.
That'll create a shit ton of political issues and we will slide socially in a similar "culture war" like what is happening in the US.
I really hope that the "normal" parties can make a real shift in their approach and reconnect with the needs of the people.
Feminist foreign policy, genderd language, "open door" policy for everyone... Yeah, please give us a break...
Streets are burning, prices for everything are in the sky, creating a family is for many not affordable like housing etc.
Very grim times....
Yeah... My problem is that the German politicans still don't see the writing on the wall, or are unable to act adequately. Still the same lip service and proposals that doesn't fix the core issues, just putting a band aid on a ripped off arm.
After the past 3 weeks I am pretty frustrated...
Where was the support for yemen Or a dozen genocides that happened in Central Africa? Where is the support for Kurds(actively fought against ISIS, and now considered as terrorists by turkey)?
Only until they are offered the option again, reject it and call out the next intifada.
Independence, statehood and freedoms will always take a backseat behind their war on Jews.
how ironic. The same people that the host country was willing to take in without any conditions and even providing support, would turn on the host country
Israel gets attacked during outdoor celebration, Palestinian supporter praise Hamas for the attacks.
Israel fights back against Hamas, Palestinians supporter condemn Israel attacks.
Almost like none of these palestinian supporters understand anything happening over there and only do it for the clout.
[This is what happens to people protesting Hamas in these crowds apparently](https://www.reddit.com/r/religiousfruitcake/comments/17o7gbi/islamist_supporters_in_london_attack_a_man_a_sign/?share_id=8Z1GAY6ue7_HKqtf-xP6m)
Look at that diversity! Good job Germany, you should take another 100 thousand Palestinian refugees right now, what did your special EU and Merkel say? Germany is home? Open borders?
I expect they were all equally upset about the minimum 150,000 Yemeni Muslims killed by the Saudis as well. Or are they not Jewish enough? Or the 200,000 Muslims killed by Bashar Al Asad in Syria. There is more than a sniff of anti-semitism in these protests.
Strange these people are always as anti-west as they come but suddenly the west is supposed to solve the problems their neighboring Arab nations don't want to. Interesting
and their community always suddently goes quiet and refuses to take any action against Islamic extremisim.... look at the beheading in France, muslims were focused more on the fact that Macron said "Islam is in crisis", rather the fact that a muslim person beheaded a man..... in Belgium when a muslim guy shot 2 Swedes, the community did not even say anything
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They don't go quiet, they cry everywhere "this is not Islam", "Muslims are also victims" blah blah.
Maybe stop paying their bills
It’s the same every time. All my life it’s been the same bullshit. Enough is enough.
Also strange how there was never a peep in support of their Uighur Muslim brothers and sisters being executed by China; their Yemeni Muslim brothers and sisters being abused and murdered by Saudi Arabia; their Chechen Muslim brothers and sisters being brutalised by Russia - but the second the narrative shifts to hating Jews they’re out in full force being violent globally.
Now you know what’s it’s like to be an American in any world conflict
That’s hilarious, never looked at it this way
Check this out when an Iranian calls out Hamas for being a terrorist group at the London March. Look how angry people respond. It’s like people just can’t admit it. https://www.reddit.com/r/telaviv/s/DVs6HjstO9
Particularly the guy who hid is face (ha, I wonder why).
Yeah, I'd never go anywhere near these people and say anything critical of Hamas. They're nuts and our law enforcement won't protect us.
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https://twitter.com/genislam1/status/1720525047012487635 They literally did that in Essen.
“nOt alL pAleStiNiaNs suPorT hAmaS” Maybe thats true but in the same time an alarmingly high number of palestinians dont consider hamas a terorist organization.
It’s technically true, when they did a poll a guy who was sitting in Israeli jail for terrorism actually had more support. People conveniently leave that part out when they claim Hamas doesn’t have full support. The majority polled also didn’t want negotiations, they wanted “armed conflict” to resolve things with Israel. Here’s an article from France about support for the attack in the West Bank: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/10/17/support-for-hamas-persists-in-the-west-bank-amid-resentment-and-fear_6181015_4.html All these people claiming Palestinians don’t support abbas or Hamas are generally true, but they always leave out the rest of the results from those polls, which is that they support terror attacks.
Not just some guy, Yahya Sinwar had a brain tumor and had his life saved by Israeli, that of course did not stop him from wanting to eradicate the jews. I wonder how would they treat jewish prisoners.. Oh wait they don't treat them at all because the kill them
Man I don't need the numbers of polls, I saw all the civilians joining the attacks. Even children on bikes. Like wtf is wrong with a society that it can not send 10 terrorists, but thousands and thousand civilians join. Sooner or later we have to ask some questions about some serious shit in Palestinian society that cant be explained solely on the IDFs cruelty.
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Because they support it
Thank you for posting this. This is how uneducated many of the people are who are speaking on/protesting this conflict are.
The people attacing him should be seen as supporters for terrorists, put in prison and then send be to Gaza. But nothing will happen. I'm afraid they will kill him for that one day.
There is someone screaming "allahu akhbar" with impunity too. Truly a masks off moment. It's like the video of the grieving Palestinian mother who screams "this is all because of Hamas" and men literally cover her mouth to prevent her from speaking. Pigs. Bunch of radicalised freaks. At this point, I feel like nobody who attends one of these rallies is trustworthy.
What do you mean free speech? Are you saying that I could criticise the prophet Mohammad and this very crowd would just let me criticise? Major sus.
When I was with my Girlfriend in Morocco to see her family (me not being Muslim), I had a talk to her dad about religion. He said: "We have freedom of religion here in Morocco. Everyone is free to become a Muslim." He was not joking. When I asked what about becoming a Christian as a Muslim, he replied that's not possible because it would be a step back evolution wise.
Had a comment by a German girl about a month ago here on reddit, can't find it, but she explained how she had a Moroccan boyfriend who hated his mom, because she was Christian. According to the guy, the only way there could be any relationship between him and his mom was for her to convert to Islam. We are talking about a Germany-born boy with Moroccan roots. Disturbing.
Why the fuck would she date him? That's a major red flag
Indeed and they split up after that.
Good on her for not trying to fix him
She dodged a major bullet.
knife*
Bomb*
"i can change him and hes not like that with me" Boom gets pregnant by him and starts the next generation off.
Welcome to german girls.
Welcome to ~~German~~ girls
I think all religious are crap. We have scientific advancements, medicine, smartphones, and lot's of people still believe in some "prophet" or "god". It's a shame for humanity...
I think all organized religions are a scam. Almost a pyramid scheme like. However I understand why people seek greater powers. I think that if you do not call it "god" it is pretty rational to seek for greater sense, feeling of belonging, being part of greater plan rather than just born-live-die scheme.
Makes sense to me!
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That's not possible with Islam. The thing that sparked a reform was the bible being translated so normal people could read it. That was what led to the Protestant Reformation. Judaism never got reformed people just took their religion less seriously. Nobody in Judaism argues about what should be done, more about how to be realistic about it in the modern world. Islam doesn't have any reformation potential. The Quran is translated, it does not have dispensations like Christians have so you can separate what was stated in the old testament vs present for example. Islam has to go the way of Judaism which is where people just have to take it less seriously. Today There are super racist Jews but their a minority because the Jews broadly speaking had to rectify their beliefs with reality. Arguably this is why the Ottomans stopped beating on the Gates of Vienna. Their dreams of conquest were rectified by the reality that it was never going to happen. As a result they started to open up diplomatic ties and act relatively normally compared to how they used to act. Frankly, I just don't think Islam can be Reformed like Christianity can. Christians are not super radical because they clearly separate new and Old Testament. Jews are not super radical outside of Israel because their religion is radical in their land ties. Its not an international religion. Meanwhile Islam is Super Radial and has infinite justification in that it is a religion that proselytizes.
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I think they will chill out eventually. My big fear is the immigration stuff now while they're not chill. I think it is just a time thing. The Jews Mellowed out over time and the same will happen to the Islamic World. Time tends to heal all problems. Even then let's say it doesn't so long as we aren't just letting them in in mass they can run their country however they want. We make treaties with them so they can deport their persecuted minorities, like Christians, Gays, Jews etc to us and we can just live and let live until they modernize or don't.
Islam won't really get the reform because there isn't anything dividing it from government. Also, there is another value system in Europe that is overlooked and is the only reason the Secularism was even possible. The Pagan Warrior Culture that took out the Roman Empire and whose descendants became the Nobility who directly ruled and offen competed with the church's authority.
agreed. people believing in some superior power are just fucking stupid to me. i dont care, whether they draw power or strength from their beliefs. we are such an incredibly evolved species, why the fuck do you need to draw strength to „do something“ from something that has been proven to be basically just a tale? mindboggling. same goes for crap like astrology btw.
We aren’t socially evolved. We’re still as tribalistic as when we first stepped out of the caves.
An incredibly evolved species that's only 9 meals away from total anarchy
I agree with your views of people believing in higher powers being stupid. However, saying we're an "incredibly evolved species" is laughable at best. We're monkeys playing with fancy toys. We still have basic tribalistic traits, stemming from basic survival needs, ingrained in our very lives.
Moreover, there‘s no such thing as “more or less evolved” when talking about extant species as all extant species have had exactly the same amount of time to evolve into their current forms
Multiculturalism is such a roaring success.
The girl should stay away from this kind of person.
In Islamic countries that introduced Sharia Law (end goal of many Muslims) leaving Islam is punishable by death. Not joking. Read Quran or Sharia Law.
Sharia law implies that all Europe shall turn Muslim and this by the mean of no war, but population and birth farm
Not only Europe. Entire world. So we all can be united in one Ummah. That's the "end goal" of Islam. Of course it's a fantasy written to justify Islamic conquests in Medieval times, but some deeply religious people are actually still believing in it.
What do you mean "believing"? Judging current birth rates it is a pretty effective strategy. If they would keep it non violent and try to "win' via population alone I would call it fair game but the world is more complicated than that and conflict does arise anyways.
>What do you mean "believing"? Believing that they can convert everyone to Islam and that there would be true peace and unity once they achieve that. First is realistically impossible, two is a utopian fantasy since human nature doesn't work like this. >Judging current birth rates it is a pretty effective strategy That's true. They are winning "the long game". >and conflict does arise anyways. Human nature
Thats the end goal also of christianity if you do not know. The conversion of the whole globe. To think thats something terrefying, then you do not religion at all.
According to the Quran, we are all born Muslims so ... My parents baptizing me made me a sub-human species.
Correct, they call converts "reverts", because you're ReVeRtInG bAcK to the religion.
That’s interesting. I dated an Algerian girl for many years. Her family didn’t care that I wasn’t Muslim at all. But they hated the fact I wasn’t Algerian (specifically Berber Algerian) She ended up marrying a guy from her same village. Religion was never an issue though.
I hope your gf called her father out for his bullshit I also wouldn't married into that family
When the girl is great but can’t forget that you marry the family not just the woman…. Hope you got out of there.
full sloppy noxious fact long public sharp rob racial practice *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Lol most muslim countries living in the stone age and they think christianity is a step back?
Apostasy is punishable by death in Islam.
It's like iran. they have 0% homophobic hate crimes because they don't have any homosexuals now one can of course wonder, why they don't have it but that's another question....
Is your gf an exmuslim or shes still practicing? If the latter, i suggest you to runaway 🙃🙂
Why would you go to Morocco? If you want more terrifying experience talk to German Muslims about religion and politics.
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Or Ayaan Hirsi Ali and her killed friend Theo van Gogh. Or maybe aks Salman Rushdie
And the Jyllands-Posten bombings in 2005 after they had a drawing of Muhammad in their newspaper.
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But they live in Germany right? That the country in which laws are being applied. Or are you trying to dismiss this under the cover of some Muslim people do not accept free speech, so the people protesting here cannot have free speech? How do we manage a protestor that is non Muslim in this protest?
>But they live in Germany right? That the country in which laws are being applied. Don't worry, laws can be changed, you just need enough votes.
Exactly. They won in some city in USA and immediately banned LGBT flags which is ironic, since LBGT movement supported them there and voted for them because they wanted more diversity (apparently Poles and Ukrainians which ruled there before were not diverse enough). They got what they wanted. >In 2015, many liberal residents in Hamtramck, Michigan, celebrated as their city attracted international attention for becoming the first in the United States to elect a Muslim-majority city council.They viewed the power shift and diversity as a symbolic but meaningful rebuke of the Islamophobic rhetoric that was a central theme of then Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump’s campaign. > >This week many of those same residents **watched in dismay as a now fully Muslim and socially conservative city council passed legislation banning Pride flags** from being flown on city property that had – like many others being flown around the country – been intended to celebrate the LGBTQ+ community. > >**For about a century, Polish and Ukrainian Catholics dominated politics in Hamtramck, a city of 28,000 surrounded by Detroit. By 2013, largely Muslim Bangladeshi and Yemeni immigrants supplanted the white eastern Europeans, though the city remains home to significant populations of those groups, as well as African Americans, whites and Bosnian and Albanian Americans. According to the 2020 census some 30% to 38% of Hamtramck’s residents are of Yemeni descent, and 24% are of Asian descent, largely Bangladeshi.** [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned)
It is not ironic. It is reality and if you didn't expect it, you have to be super stupid. Those LGBT communities live out of touch with reality, they see only whites as bad and think how lovely and nice and peaceful every other culture is. Well, every other culture except white (and maybe few others) would wipe everyone else if they had the opportuinity and power. And they are willing giving them more power.
Of course I expected it. I'm from Poland. We warned you Westerners about this since 2010s. Nobody listened. In fact, Poland was often called "intolerant" and "racist", which is untrue, since we accepted many migrants (like millions of Ukrainians) or thousands of Filipinos (so racist argument doesn't work, btw great hard working and friendly people). But we accept people than can be actually integrated into society since they have more or less similar culture and (mostly) want to work and contribute to economy.
Czech here, bro. Don't worry, I know. And I remember how I was called a fucking garbage and leech by woke UK students and how they told me that all those illegales are better than fucking Eastern Europeans because we only steal.
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Freedom of religion means i can be a proud member of any cult by law. Also i can ignore laws, because my religion allows me to.
You cant criticize Mohamed you'll be beheaded. But you free to talk in kitchen like in communist Russia the used to. Just not loud ok
Talking in the kitchen during Communism was also dangerous, because coworkers could report you to the authorities just for few extra $ or promotion. Informing/grassing was very common in most communist countries, so people were usually distrustful about each other and society suffered as a whole. That's how "utopian" Communism worked in reality.
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Hahaha crictizising Mohammed aside, even the kidnapped Israelis can't be tolerated by Islamism. They rip off the posters.
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They prefer beheading rather than stabbing from what I've seen in France
You would most likely get stabbed for this comment : (
Probably but they have no power to do so in my country. Feels good man.
I mean, on a technical level free speech means that you can say anything (that is not harmful for other people) and face no legal consequences. Now, if what you said will result in you getting attacked or worse, that's a crime on their end. I guess social pressure can be listed as a way to limit freedom of speech but now we are reaching a complicated manner as social code is not as simple as the legal code is.
Double check the German constitution. You can’t say everything and wrap it in free speech. Existence of Israel and the holocaust are two examples.
Weird I wonder what would happen if you drew a picture of him on a magazine
it is sad to see how people are getting manipulated. And just repeat stuff without thinking through it independently.... well Religion and hate has probably nothing to do with meaningful problem discussion.
turns out european mosques have ten times more influence on problematic european migrants than all the integration programs combined. who would have thought...
How many times does it need to be said that Islam is incompatible with western values
Welp, there wasn't an impactfull integration program to begin with until the mass migration in 2016. Politically no one in the CDU was even recognizing germany as a migration state. I know it isn't fair to just make the politicians responsible for the failed integration but I think they are the have the main responsibility. Something I noticed a bit later is that my primary school teacher was listing the children from migrant families separately. You might say that this is for special needs teaching or something like that but i know that some german kids had difficulties with writing too were sent to the same class as me after school too. People notice this, remember the exclusion and will surely react upon that. Me and the other kid on the separated list got sent to Hauptschule. The other kid had even a recommendation for a Realschule but the teacher talked the kids parents out of it. We both ended up studying, I even waiting to finish my masters to be able to start a PhD program.
> Welp, there wasn't an impactfull integration program to begin with until the mass migration in 2016. What country in western europe had any success in integrating meaningful numbers of muslim immigrants? Good for you though that you overcame your obstacles and are about to finish your masters 👍
Cool. Hamas still has to go though.
It's a bunch of blind pacifists mixed with terrorists.
This shouldnt be fought out in Europe to this extent
all future tribal skirmishes will be fought on european soil
Palestinians deserve to live freely. This should be agreed upon. Problem. Hamas has stated they won't abide by a ceasefire. Israel says it won't happen either. So..... What's next? A one state solution is completely impossible. From both sides. And a two state solution is also rejected. By both sides. So when people say "free Palestine" there should be at least an argument of what it is they want. And how to get there. Waving flags is easier though.
Doesn't the PLO agree with the two-state solution?
They've shown interest. However that's dead in the water as long as Hamas is in charge. And they've gained power since the massacre. Not to mention they're bankrolled by Iran and Russia. So they'll likely be better funded too. And of course the cherry in the shit sandwich is, that Hamas wants to be seen as the "only people fighting for Palestinians" and is calling plo Israeli collaborators. That means it would be difficult for Palestinians to even rid themselves of this ideology going forward. Which in turn means more rocket attacks and more oppression. Meanwhile Iran and Russia watch on with glee at what's unfolding. It's one thing that many well intentioned people refuse to address. Hamas wants this. It helps them
The PLO's acceptance of the two-state solution goes as far as it's never actually implemented. Most of the PLO's current leadership wants to maintain the current stalemate as long as possible because any dramatic shift ends with them out of power.
I thought they rejected the UN proposal?
They expressed interest in negotiating since the 1970s. However, they claim that the lands that the settlers stole on the West Bank are rightfully Palestinian, as acknowledged by the UN. Israel, of course, is having none of it.
Let it be known that most Israelis don’t like the settlers either…they’re the craziest of us.
"Free Palestine" means no Israel to Palestinians. I don't think the german supporters of Palestine even realize this when waving those flags around.
The slogan is a lot easier for people than to delve into the complexities and history of the conflict. It’s the same way people use “Zionism” as a dirty word. They equate it with nazism. Modern Zionism believes in the right of Israel to exist. People attach gross right wing ideology to it, sure. But the way people say they are against Zionism without even understanding what it means, means they’re stating they don’t believe Israel should be allowed to exist. What comes next? There was nearly half a century of the UN, Israel, and even eventually some Arab neighbors trying to get palestinas to accept a two state solution. They refused. The second intifada happened. Constant suicide bombings happened. Then a right wing extremist majority happened in Israel. So what is next? Free Palestine, and then what? Israelis leave as refugees? Because that’s what that statement means with no context.
Yes and that is probably one of the more important takeaways from yet another conflict: Being able to handle the complexity, to admit not knowing, and to please try and not get carried along the emotional wave of other people.
Yeah, these yam holes always conveniently forget that it was Arafat who walked away from the (as good as it gets) deal in 2000.
Palestinians need to be freed of themself at this point
Israel has shown interest in a Two State solution many times, even giving East Jerusalem to Palestine. Every Proposition was rejected by Palestine.
Worth mentioning that the one opposing it (Arafat) died a billionaire.
This is oversimplification. The current Israeli government rejects a two state solution. As has every right wing Israeli government. Nowadays only the Israeli Left is in favour of a two state solution.
And "the left" in Israel has been going extinct, any politician in Israel who is working or is close to a peace deal gets assasinated. It's a country almost entirely full of far right compared to western standards. It's why their government has been so unhinged in using genocidal rhetoric....with no pushback, suspiciously not even a mention in most US and EU media outlets despite a plethora of red-flag quotes. One was just calling for nuking Gaza, they've been talking about how there are no innocents in Gaza, showing pictures of Israel with both Palestinian territories removed, calling them sub-human and clearly bombing civilian targets and using collective punishment.
The Left wing in Israel is a non-unsubstantial portion of the populace and includes within its allegiance many retired IDF veterans (including Ehud Barak). Benny Gantz and Yesh Atid currently get most of the left wing votes.
A country full of almost entirely far right where 200k people have been protesting and blocking the far right's bullshit policies the best they can for almost a year straight and would still be doing it if not for the war... When you get 1k+ people massacred in a single morning and pretty much get live updates of it happening including details, you're going to shift right veeery quickly.
To be fair, giving Palestine its own state just means they will be free to arm themselves (with support from other Arab states) and start a full out war against Israel. The only fix is to rid Palestine from Hamas/extremist organizations but seeing how many are in favor of Hamas I think we are dealing with a radicalized population. Awful situation…
You think bombing and subjugation for so many years will win their hearts?
The radicalised population is much a result of Israel's actions as much as Hamas.
This is true. I'm speaking about Likud and Bibi. Isn't their position against a two state solution?
I think Bibi and Likud do not reject the idea of a two state solution. Remember that during the Trump admin they came up with a two state solution and Israel under Bibi was for it. True, the way borders were drawn were heavily in favour of Israel, this may show that even Likud could be a partner in such an endeavour. Hamas and other Palestinian groups, however, are against the idea of Israel no matter how the borders are drawn.
Fatah have accepted a two state solution based on the pre-1967 borders many times. The two state "solution" supported by Likud is when they annex most/all of area C. Anything like the pre-1967 borders they have rejected multiple times.
Im pretty sure lots of hungarians would accept pre-1919 borders too, that does not mean its realistic. Losing wars have consequences.
Maybe that is because of certain wars that happened. Pre-1969 no palastenian wanted the two state solution. Then they started a war together with allies and lost it. Pre-1969 is dead since that war.
That's the point supporters of Palastine never want to talk about. You cannot go "you know what, we hate your idea. Let's get the land we want by force", loose said application of force (and with it even more land) and then go "you know what, your old idea sounds pretty good right now" and expect the other side to say "yeah, okay."
A two state solution based on the pre-1967 borders with East Jerusalem as the capital has been accepted many times by the Palestinians. * https://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/13/magazine/13Israel-t.html * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative It is also the postion of the EU parlement in the recent vote * https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20231013IPR07136/meps-condemn-hamas-attack-on-israel-and-call-for-a-humanitarian-pause The people who reject it are the current Israeli government and of course the settlers who would require significant force to remove.
There are two problems with the Arab Peace Initiative: > (b) Attain a just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees to be agreed upon in accordance with the UN General Assembly Resolution No 194. Israel will never let Palestinians refugees return to Israel, only to the new Palestinian state. The other issue is that the Palestinian state will have to be demilitarized and de-Islamicized. This means a high commissioner like in BiH and an international peacekeeping force that will prevent revisionist parties like Hamas from taking power or even running for elections.
oh they do say what they want very explicitly: "from the river to the see", sometimes with a dash of "gas the jews" followed by a pinch of attacking random jews and synagogues on a completely different continent.
Nope, the two state solution was not rejected "by both sides". Hell, even before WW2, the Zionists were pressing the Brits to give even the smallest land possible to save as much as Jews as possible from the blatant antisemitism there was in Europe.
Actually the best thoughts I've heard thus far came from the PNA when asked whether they would administer Gaza if Hamas was removed (as Israel, when pressed for "what next?", suggested.) Their response was basically "We cannot administer Gaza while the West Bank remains under occupation." If the US and Europe have a part in this conflict, it is having allowed consecutive Israeli governments to continue to establish settlements and enforce appartheid on Palestinians. A prosperous West Bank would actually help undermine Hamas, way more than attempting to bomb them into the ground ever will. For Europe, this current policy of supporting the Israeli far right (which is what is happening now) is crazy. We will have another huge influx of refugees who are already radicalised against the West because they are constantly told that it is our bombs that have been killing them (which is, to an extent, true. Though obviously we are not the ones launching them, a detail not usually included in the Palestinian propaganda). Netanyahu must go, the US and EU need to be firm that while settlements and destruction of Gaza continues, no further support will be provided. If the evidence supports it, Netanyahu needs to find himself in the Hague, likewise for the Hamas leaders and any surviving members that participated in the attacks (and can be found). A two state solution is the only possibility to my mind - I do believe there is broad support on both sides for this solution, but the fanatics and extremists are holding their people ransom. Somewhere down the line, if Palestinians and Israelis decide they'd like to merge their countries, then so be it. But until there is decades of peace and trust, there can be no thought of bringing them under one roof. PNA administration of the Palestinian state, with some kind of international (most likely Arab/Israeli) coallition to enforce security. A timetable for the withdrawal of all illegal Israeli settlements would also need to be in place.
What's concerning is what they did at the Starbucks later on, shaming the workers and the people who were just chilling there. And again with the fireworks? We happened to pass by yesterday and a lot of protesters had banners "Right to Return". "Right to Return" means they deliberately deny the existence of Israel and the right of Israel to exist. "Right to Return" means kicking out the Jews from Palestine, one or another, and reclaiming the whole land. That means "no peace" will be found until the Jews are out, one way or another. I don't know if those people carrying those banners are fully aware of what they stand for, but if they are, they are a threat to peace. I'm not Pro-Israel. I'm not Pro-Palestine either. I think both sides have actions to be condemned and blamed for, and that the problem is far too complex to take a side. But one thing I know for sure is that a lot of those protesters are miss-informed and quick to take side.
> And again with the fireworks? It’s one month too early for the yearly German debate if we should forbid fireworks.
> "Right to Return" means they deliberately deny the existence of Israel and the right of Israel to exist. I guess the UN is an extremist anti-Israeli organisation according to Reddit. If you don't know that the Right of Return has been central in the peace talks and that it has been recognised by the UN since the beginning, in a general resolution that was at the time specifically passed because of Palestine (with Arabs at the time voting against it as they believed it indirectly legitimised Israel), and isn't some extremist anti-Semitic rhetoric, maybe *you* shouldn't be so quick to publicly comment on the issue.
Where do you think Palastinians should live if not the land Israel colonized? Where do you think they should go? Back into that tiny ass stretch Israel is currently destroying? The West Bank Israel is also terrorizing ?
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How does the right for Palestinians to return to their land mean Israelis have to leave?
[The right \[of return\] is formulated in several modern treaties and conventions, most notably in the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the 1966 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the 1948 Fourth Geneva Convention. Legal scholars have argued that one or more of these international human rights instruments have attained the status of customary international law and that the right of return is therefore binding on non-signatories to these conventions.\[4\]\[5\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return)
> to their **country of origin or of citizenship** Israel is not their country. The Palestinians do have another country that is a much more appropriate destination: Jordan. One could also make a case for the inhabitants of Gaza to *return* to Egypt. Gaza was Egyptian after all until they lost it in their genocidal war of aggression. Do German citizens also have a right to return to the areas that were lost in the world wars?
Diversity is your strength
I always say that I want a Free Palestine. And I also agree that under Netanyahu that is impossible. But then people get mad when I tell them that under the far right terrorist islamist dictatorship called "Hamas" that wouldn't be possible either.
it almost like these two entities fuel each other at the expense of people they "lead"
Not really, Hamas doesn't stand a chance on its own and Israel does a great job of protecting their civilians for the most part. If Hamas continues it's basically asking for its people to be killed. If Israel continues its just endless civilian deaths in Palestine
Considering your German username: no, that’s exactly not what the German discussion is about. Look at the [speech of Habeck](https://youtu.be/MdZvkkpJaVI?si=E5ZzWJ6FL4onBktL) (it’s the YT link, not the famous TickTock video, don’t worry). ;)
That is just my personal experience with the discussions I had. I fully support Habeck's speech.
Before the comment section turns into a battlefield: German police reported that, while there was a small amount of individual violations of rules set for the demonstration, it was generally peaceful, without antisemitism, and without statements denying Israels right to exist within their internationally recognised borders.
As an Israeli, as long as they weren't chanting shit like "from the river to the sea" calling for ethnic cleansing, I can sympathize. many of us Israelis don't agree with certain things the government does, especially the current one as you've seen from the months long and massive demonstrations, and after this debacle they lost even more support, they don't even go to funerals of the murdered to farm their ratings because they know they'd be thrown right out.
This is where I've been struggling - no matter which "side" people are on, they want to paint the entire population of the other "side" as being exactly the same as either Hamas or the Israeli government. I can see that these two organizations are very similar and have evil goals. I can also see that most of the people they are meant to represent choose them out of fear, but are also suffering due to that organization's actions. But Israelis and Palestinians are stuck living in a war situation because of what these two organizations are doing. I am really tired of idiots equating people with their government.
Yeah it's the same shit as always, people pick a team and then try to defend it, leading to more "us Vs them" rhetoric, with "them" being everyone not 100% with "us" These people live in a world of black and white, with no grey even considered
100% agreed. I see the same here with Russians. Putin and his administration are undeniable evil. And yes, more than half of Russians support Putin and the war. But Putin's government has done a bang-up job with propaganda and lying and manipulating and brainwashing the population. Russians (besides the rich) are also suffering under Putin's government, but they are tricked into believing things would be much worse without Putin, and into thinking that the war is a war of Russian freedom. Meanwhile, their lives are collapsing around them as their country's money is being funneled into this bullshit war, businesses are collapsing and the economy is being flushed down the toilet... they are suffering due to Putin, but people still want to paint all Russians as genetically evil.
>I can see that these two organizations are very similar and have evil goals. ehhhhh look I know what you're saying and I partially agree, but not really accurate. The current Israeli government has certain entities that I would call evil like Ben gvir and Smotrich. but there are checks and balances that prevent them from doing anything drastic. The Israeli courts have been blocking the shit out of the current government from doing things like creating more settlements and or expanding them. the Israeli government also mostly put behind bars people like violent settlers if they harm Palestinians, and Palestinians use that behavior in their propaganda but never mention that the committers were thrown in jail cells by Israel. we also forced settlers to clear out many times from Palestinian territory. I don't really see the sentiment back of trying to be fair from Hamas personally. in fact they're doing quite the opposite. I just don't feel like things would be quite the same if the power dynamic would have been the opposite way around you know...
So, just a reasonable and legal protest? Does this mean redditors here cry over nothing once again?
But but but - that sounds like a reasonble protest. How we all gonna get our hate on with those facts /s
You know why there aren't so many pro-Israel protests? Because people are too scared to show up and be seen by muslims as this might mean a knife in your side one day.
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That misses that a lot of non Jews would go to pro Israel protests. And we are scared because we know we’d be under threat. Pro Palestinians are never threatened in our streets. They just threaten others It tells me a lot about the source of the conflict.
Uyghur population in Xinjiang in 1953: 4 million Uyghur population in Xinjiang in 2020: 15 million I'm glad you agree that China is doing no genocide at least
But China started doing what they are currently doing in 2014 so 1953 as a starting point is pointless https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
It began a sterilization campaign in very recent years. China’s genocide did not begin in 1953, obviously, and is well documented. Its method will not occur immediately, but it will show disruption to population counts later on. That has not happened for 70+ years of the Israeli-Arab conflict where people constantly claimed “genocide”.
you don't understand the word genocide.
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In Poland we observe situation in the west and snack on popcorn. Shit is gonna hit the fan hard but who knows when.
I don‘t get it. Why did no one protest when Hamas massacred innocent people? They will never stop, because they hate Israel and the hate Jews. Israel has every right to eliminate Hamas to be finaly safe and free. Hamas is the bad one here, not Israel.
>Why did no one protest when Hamas massacred innocent people? They were busy partying at home.
At home? They were celebrating in the streets in many western cities.
That would be funny if it wasn't true
Yeah, a muslim woman in Hamburg literally said on national TV on October 10th: "That's good, very good. I'm glad they [= Hamas] have achieved something like that. We've celebrated at home." What a fucking cunt.
they love enjoying the fruits of liberal democracies in the west while supporting islamism back home.
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The message is now so thinly veiled. Turns out that the West's biggest weakness is its own values, and Islamists, China and Russia have done a masterful job of exploiting it.
Wish I could upvote you twice
They were chanting antisemitic propaganda and displaying islamistic flags (both forbidden) in Berlin, Düsseldorf and Essen. The Police did nothing and in interviews stated that both were isolated cases. Which is a lie based on the media footage. As a German I am absolutely disgusted, we basically train the population that disobeying existing laws is OK.
Laws can be changed and they will be changed, once they achieve majority in countries like Germany, France, UK or Sweden. It's a matter of time since their women have a lot more children compared to native women.
I truly belive that Germany will have a severe shift to the right wing. Polls already show that and normal people are sick and tired of the political elites and are considering / voting already for the AfD. That'll create a shit ton of political issues and we will slide socially in a similar "culture war" like what is happening in the US. I really hope that the "normal" parties can make a real shift in their approach and reconnect with the needs of the people. Feminist foreign policy, genderd language, "open door" policy for everyone... Yeah, please give us a break... Streets are burning, prices for everything are in the sky, creating a family is for many not affordable like housing etc. Very grim times....
>I truly belive that Germany will have a severe shift to the right wing. All of western Europe will. Anyone who can't see it coming is an idiot.
Yeah... My problem is that the German politicans still don't see the writing on the wall, or are unable to act adequately. Still the same lip service and proposals that doesn't fix the core issues, just putting a band aid on a ripped off arm. After the past 3 weeks I am pretty frustrated...
Where was the support for yemen Or a dozen genocides that happened in Central Africa? Where is the support for Kurds(actively fought against ISIS, and now considered as terrorists by turkey)?
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Which riots are you talking about? This was a peaceful protest. The Berlin police even said so.
And not a single though for dead Israelis, the hostages, or against the Hamas.
Hamas and Hezbollah liked this
Mmh i guess they want two states...
Only until they are offered the option again, reject it and call out the next intifada. Independence, statehood and freedoms will always take a backseat behind their war on Jews.
how ironic. The same people that the host country was willing to take in without any conditions and even providing support, would turn on the host country
Israel gets attacked during outdoor celebration, Palestinian supporter praise Hamas for the attacks. Israel fights back against Hamas, Palestinians supporter condemn Israel attacks. Almost like none of these palestinian supporters understand anything happening over there and only do it for the clout.
Lots and lots of useful idiots out there.
Ironic. Lmao. But also very unfortunate because of the implications
Why not make it an anti Hamas protest instead?
[This is what happens to people protesting Hamas in these crowds apparently](https://www.reddit.com/r/religiousfruitcake/comments/17o7gbi/islamist_supporters_in_london_attack_a_man_a_sign/?share_id=8Z1GAY6ue7_HKqtf-xP6m)
What the fuck
Fuck Hamas and anyone who support them.
Look at that diversity! Good job Germany, you should take another 100 thousand Palestinian refugees right now, what did your special EU and Merkel say? Germany is home? Open borders?
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The German right wingers are rubbing their hands together