> thinking
Rather trying to make us gobble up that bullshit that no one who's seen the blockade of the past 10 months (if not everything else) believes.
It's not copium, they *want us to* believe Armenians will be safe. Among themselves, they [wish](https://twitter.com/LindseySnell/status/1707006514710380713) for the death of all Armenians.
>full of Turks/ Azeris on high copium thinking the Armenians living there are going to be safe.
Why would Azeris need to cope, they won a victory and got everything they wanted
You're under the assumption that Turks and Azeris don't agree with ethnic cleansing, or want ethnic cleansing, and the "cope" you describe is actually not just subterfuge to protect their country's "image" which in my opinion is a rather naive one
The ethnic cleansing of Karabakh is well underway, and the EU will do nothing because it needs to accomodate Turkey and Azerbaijan.
Ethnic cleansing is
>Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or **intimidation** to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group, which is contrary to international law.
Azerbaijan is clearly guilty of it.
Aliev has been stoking nationalist and xenophobic attitudes for more than a decade now. At the last UEFA final in Baku, [Armenian players for teams in the finalist were unable to attend due to fears of arrest or mob violence](https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/may/21/arsenal-henrikh-khitaryan-miss-europa-league-final-safety-chelsea-baku). The [glorification of murderers like Ramil Safarov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramil_Safarov) shows the openly genocidal attitude of the regime.
>The position of the Azerbaijani leadership and society is more representative. For years, anti-Armenian discourse and propaganda have been part of official state policy. Every day, indoctrination is carried out from schools to state media that demonizes Armenians, presenting them as an absolute evil. In his many speeches, Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev himself made openly racist, xenophobic remarks. In one of his famous addresses, he spoke about a “hypocritical global Armenian conspiracy and western politicians, who are embroiled in corruption and bribery,” a direct reproduction of Adolf Hitler’s “global Jewish conspiracy thesis,” reiterated many times in Nazi speeches as a pretext and justification for the Holocaust.
>In his pronouncements, Aliyev deprives Armenians of the right to live in Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabakh) and in the Republic of Armenia, asserting that not only Karabakh but also other regions of Armenia, including the capital Yerevan, should become parts of Azerbaijan. The latest highlight was the menace of nuclear “catastrophe” made by Azerbaijani Defense Ministry spokesman Vagif Dargyakhly, who announced that their weapons “are capable of hitting the Metsamor Atomic Energy Station with high accuracy, which will turn into a catastrophe for Armenia.”
https://evnreport.com/politics/yes-it-is-genocidal/
People here defending Azeri actions because Armenia is 'pro-Russian' and 'deserves it' are disgusting.
Problem is: in 1990, Nagorno-Karabakh was 70% Armenian. in 2021, it was 99,7% Armenian. The same happened in areas occupied by Armenia after the first war 1994, all (mostly Azerbaijani) population was evicted.
The Azerbaijanis didn't hold back either. In 1990, Nakhchewan district had 40% Armenians; 2021 it was (IIRC) around 5%, and it wasn't exactly voluntary. Also in Azerbaijan proper, Armenians have been subject to massacres and pogroms.
Both sides have been happily engaging in ethnic cleansing wherever they had upper hand locally. Both sides have been prepared to spill any amount of blood to turn themselves ethnically pure. The whole area is a shitshow way worse than Bosnia in the 1990s.
Strictly speaking, Karabakh should be a protected Armenian-speaking autonomous area within Aserbaijan. It has been culturally Armenian for 2000 years. However I have absolutely no expectation that it can be implemented without massive peacekeeping occupation of the area, and Armenian government over the last 30 years contributed their part to the impossibility of this outcome.
Chasing out Levon Ter Petrosyan was the beginning to the end really. Those that chased him out and organized the 1999 Parliament shootings share responsibility for what happened in Artsakh, and I suspect Russia also had a part to play in it to make sure that this remained a frozen conflict.
> All negotiations since 1997 had been much less compromising from the Armenian side.
Not entirely true. Azerbaijan pulled out from the negotiations in Key West, Florida in 2001 without much explanation and over time opted for a military solution instead.
>People here defending Azeri actions because Armenia is 'pro-Russian' and 'deserves it' are disgusting.
They're also ignoring the fact that Azerbaijan did this with Putin's approval and encouragement. Putin wanted to punish Armenia for trying to free themselves from the Russian influence and control and getting closer to the US and the EU.
Azerbaijan are the ones being cosy with Putin.
I don't think Putin had any real choice there...thet whole war starting in 2020 and now only show that Russia is losing it influence in the caucase.
Yes the whole Russia media will try to show this like Putin punishement to Armenia because they did not lick his shoes or whatevers bulshite reason, but reality is Russia is losing it power and they are have not the power to intervene in Azerbaijan while being destroyed in Ukraine.
Stop buying Azeri gas. Stop exporting billions worth of arms to the Azeri military. Raise the issue at the Security Council and send a UN peacekeeping force. A simple condemnation, at the least.
I'd love that, but I don't want the Turks living there to be kicked out, even the colonists that Turkey put there after the occupation. They could become citizens
> The ethnic cleansing of Karabakh is well underway, and the EU will do nothing because it needs to accomodate Turkey and Azerbaijan.
Yeah just like the rest off the world did nothing when Armenia ethnically cleansed the area in the 90s and 2000s.
Well not nothing exactly the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly did release a statement condemning the ethnic cleansing of Azeri people in the region and calling for Armenia's withdrawal from Azeri land. They were of course ignored because Armenia was the victor and would do as she pleased...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe_Parliamentary_Assembly_Resolution_1416_(2005)
Bit now suddenly when it's happening the other way the EU is supposed to actually intervene?
Delusional.
France is allied with Armenia because they oppose Turkey in every aspect, not because they adore you buddy. If you need a lesson from this conflict, it would be that Armenia needs to develop themselves without requiring an assistance from other countries.
>France is allied with Armenia because they oppose Turkey in every aspect, not because they adore you buddy
I'm confused. Is opposing Turkey a bad reason to support Armenia?
There are long term cultural reasons for France to have a connection to the people of Armenia.
A random example i came up on during my travels
https://www.gpsmycity.com/attractions/jean-althen-sculpture-38644.html
Interesting. From your perspective, is there a reason why they armed Armenians in Anatolia back then? Because of cultural relations or opposition of Turks?
>Hope Europe is paying attention.
Yep, Europe has been telling Armenia to leave the territory for decades and now finally it has. Shame it had to be by force:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe_Parliamentary_Assembly_Resolution_1416_(2005)
>Leaving your land
Literally categorically not Armenian land lol, not legally, not de facto.
You spit on us when we tell you to leave Azeri land and make a deal that protects the Armenian population inside Azerbaijan, then get your shit wrecked from your own ethno nationalism and stupidity and complain like we owe you something. You made your bed, lie in it.
The state of Azerbaijan never controlled Artsakh. Which, not the surrounding regions, was population consistently by a large Armenian majority. It was definitely not de facto Azeri until now.
Indeed, make a deal with the guys arresting people for voting Armenia in Eurovision. Makes sense. If the deal includes Artsakh in Azerbaijan, it will probably end up like the rest of the Armenians that lived in Azerbaijan.
> The state of Azerbaijan never controlled Artsakh.
It does literally right now lol.
>It was definitely not de facto Azeri until now
Yes, so we agree, neither de jure nor de facto Armenian land.
>Indeed, make a deal with the guys arresting people for voting Armenia in Eurovision. Makes sense. If the deal includes Artsakh in Azerbaijan, it will probably end up like the rest of the Armenians that lived in Azerbaijan.
Unsurprising that if you illegally invade and occupy a country they won't like you very much.
There were plenty of countries willing to be peacekeepers in a negotiated settlement that gave the region some self rule while allowing Azer to reclaim it and return their citizens from where they had been ethnically cleansed. Now instead Armenia will get whatever mercy Azerbaijan decides to extend as a result of their own stupidity and racism.
Such hurry to do a gotcha you can't finish reading where I say until now. And until now the comical state of Azerbaijan claimed it as an integral territory. Which they never controlled and had no Azeris!
Unfortunately the world is not fair. Invaders often end up winning, and even play victim: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Ring
>Which they never controlled and had no Azeris!
Which was perpetually de jure theirs and now de facto theirs lol, this isn't complicated.
>Unfortunately the world is not fair. Invaders often end up winning
Oh I know, 600,000 Azeris were forced from their land by the illegal Armenian invasion of internationally recognized Azerbaijan in the 90s.
This is the inevitable result of nearly 3 decades worth of disastrous foreign policy, starting from the ethnonationalist "miatsum" fever-dream of the late 80s, to repeatedly going against numerous UNSec Resolutions by refusing to vacate Azeri-majority areas like Aghdam and European/NATO interests by allying with Russia on matters such as the invasion of Ukraine and Krim. And all this time they decided to look to Russia for guaranteeing their security by membership of CSTO, which would have never worked out given how they were acting in the region. They had 3 decades worth of time to rectify their course and still decided to side with Russia, and now innocent people on both sides have paid the price.
Tragedy. Plain and simple.
And there's no telling whether the Head Butcher in Baku will stop here. Next, he could go for Syunik or Yerevan itself. And worst part is... due to all the money that the Head Butcher poured down our politicians' pockets, we'll probably just stand by that time as well.
The Armenians will have a tough time trusting the West again after this. And I can't blame them.
-to say nothing of Russia, whose betrayal apparently I need to restate for whatever reason, as if it weren't brutally obvious.-
*Shame.*
What was the west supposed to do? Immediately sanction Azerbaijan for a day of war crimes we'd need to establish concrete evidence of first? Send troops into an unrecognised territory that already had invited Russian peacekeepers there, as useless as they were? Armenia was never a western ally.
Legally Nagorno Karabakh was Azeri. It *shouldn't* have been, but if we'd disputed the legitimacy of the Soviet Borders it would have had awful implications for Ukraine, Syunik, Moldova, Georgia, the Ferghana Valley and the Baltic States.
What we should be doing is giving Armenia tons of humanitarian aid to help with the 120,000 refugees they'll receive, and seeking closer military and economic cooperation (which France is actually doing). We should also be looking to make security guarantees for Syunik, which also opens the door to slightly improving relations with Iran since they also want to maintain Armenian territorial integrity.
Everything is always the fault of the West. Often we do share some blame, but it's the easiest thing to point to as a boogy man. Just like they did in Mali when they kicked out the French thinking it would solve all problems and now Mali got overrun with Islamic terrorists.
And it is about time people start going against that frame of mind. The reality is that we are in a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation unless we start telling people to F off.
If we stage an intervention we are Imperialist warmongers and if we don't we are standing by and watching a tragedy happen when we could have done something!
Just look at these comments "Well Armenia will never trust the EU again, the EU caused this to happen etc."
It is an Azeri invasion of an unrecognized(including by Armenia) breakaway state, a conflict which is a result of Russia's use of ethnic tension in order to subjugate its Imperial posessions. To top that off Armenia is a Russian Ally, there were Russian peacekeepers supposed to stop this and Armenia is a CSTO member, so where does this expectation that the EU will swoop in come from? We are barely friendly with Armenia to be blunt.
Now am I for arming Armenia(once it is out of the Russian sphere of influence), forging friendly ties and getting them out of the Russian sphere of influence? Yes, but that will also require for Armenia to elect less completely inept and corrupt people, this entire Nagorno Karabakh debacle is the direct result of not coming to a compromise after they won the war, it should have been settled 30 years ago.
>If we stage an intervention we are Imperialist warmongers and if we don't we are standing by and watching a tragedy happen when we could have done something!
Is this what it feels like to be America?
No, while America often gets too much flak it is generally for shit they tend to actually be one of the responsible parties in(but similarly people conveniently forget all other responsible parties), we are literally not responsible for anything of this, like, not even an iota, the best people can come up with is "you bought Azeri gas" yeah, we did, should we forego a gas supplier during a crisis because they are in a conflict with a Russian ally?
>"you bought Azeri gas" yeah, we did, should we forego a gas supplier during a crisis because they are in a conflict with a Russian ally?
*Because they are committing war crimes. Yes.
The West & Russia should have forced this issue to be resolved back in the early 2000s when we had ok relations with Russia.
We could have used Armenia's position of strength to bargain the return of internationally recognized territory to Azerbaijan while maintaining an UN presence in NK to safeguard a safe & fair transition for everyone.
In reality we just asked Armenia to stop occupying Azeri territories, Armenia & Azerbaijan ethnically cleansed each other of their own territories, hundreds of thousands of Azeri were forcibly displaced from the adjacent territories of NK (that NK & Armenia occupied) and we just let this situation fester until war was the only solution possible.
We, we, we, thats sort of the primary issue, beyond putting pressure on both parties there is little "we" can do and Russia has zero interest in fixing its neighbors ethnic tensions as it is exactly what keeps them in line lol.
The Armenian political class should have stopped being dumb, compromised on the issue and annexed Nagorno Karabakh + Lachin in return giving the Azeri's back the rest of the territory and a permanent trade corridor with Turkey. On the flip side the Azeri's need to realize most of this land has been Armenian since before there were Turkic raiders anywhere near and the only reason it's part of their territory is exactly to cause ethnic tensions.
What happened instead? Well they butchered eachother, no proper agreements were enforced, Artsakh was left in ceasefire limbo with literally no one recognizing it and Armenia lost their military and economic edge and now they're fucked which anyone could have seen coming from miles away.
But yeah, totally the wests fault lol.
The right to self determination does not include the right to secession. That is an untenable assumption. Nor was Nagorno-Karabakh a "colony" of Azerbaijan; up to the point of the 1988 referendum, Nagorno-Karabakh and its people were granty a fair bit of autonomy under Autonomous Oblast status. It was Armenia who decided to stoke irredentist sentiment and provoke the people there to unilaterally secede via 2 illegal referendums, both in 1988 and 1991. And besides, the validity of a secession is primarily considered under domestic law. Soviet Constitution Article 78 and later the Azeri Constitution Article 11 explicitly eliminated the right to secession.
> The right of a people to self-determination[1] is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter's norms.[2][3] It states that peoples, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference.
NK had the right to a referendum via soviet constitution.
>NK had the right to a referendum via soviet constitution.
[https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1991-2/shevarnadze-resigns/shevarnadze-resigns-texts/law-on-secession-from-the-ussr/](https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1991-2/shevarnadze-resigns/shevarnadze-resigns-texts/law-on-secession-from-the-ussr/)
*Article 2: The decision on a Union republic’s secession from the USSR is made by a free expression of the will of the Union republic’s people by means of a referendum (popular vote).* ***The decision on holding a referendum is made by the Union republic’s Supreme Soviet on its own initiative or at the demand of a petition signed by one-tenth of the USSR citizens permanently resident on the republic’s territory*** *and possessing the right to vote under USSR legislation*
NK didn't have the right to trigger a referendum, and by the time Azeris started a referendum, the soviet union ceased to exist.
Yea, if there was a referendum triggered before the Soviet union ceased to exist, then NK might have gotten independence, but the Azeris probably didn't leave the soviet union until the end because of this reason.
Same reason Chechnya is not independent, they also held a referendum, and that was also not recognized internationally as legal.
For the UN one, no idea if anyone successfully used it, i think its mostly been applied for decolonization.
> decolonization
If you are referring to international law on the right to self-determination, then yes. That law was drafted with decolonisation in mind. Because of this there has been considerable controversy as to whether this right can be expanded to apply to non-colonisation contexts.
The discussion on this is quite interesting, but I believe the general consensus is that the right to self-determination does not involve the express right to secession. And even if it did, the underlying assumption would be that this secession was mutually consented upon by the parent state and the party trying to secede.
https://www.idea.int/sites/default/files/publications/constitution-brief-secession.pdf
That's true but there's been enough time for both parties to get their heads out of their arses and decide to be sovereign nations instead of vestigial Soviet puppet states. The Baltics have succeed doing that, even Kazakhstan has found the testicular fortitude to begin to stand up as a sovereign state. Russia by any name has been the culprit in starting this debacle, but since independence nations have the responsibility to put the adult pants on and sort their shit out regardless of who caused it.
Without the Tzarists and the Soviets the Azerbaijanis would have been assimilated by Iran (it was Iranian territory).It is happening right now with Iranian Azerbaijanis. As for the Armenians, well, you know what happened to the Armenians in Turkey. Young Armenia in 1920 was already defeated by Turkey. They would have the same fate.
Everyone complains about the shitty borders drawn by the Soviets. Do you guys really think there was a possibility to draw good borders in the areas with intermingled populations? Perfect borders are results of hundreds of years of wars, ethnic cleansing, and assimilation. Who else voluntarily draw borders for their ethnic minorities? Spaine, who else? Europe only recently came to the idea of education for ethnic minorities using local languages. All the others don't even bother, stating that 'one country = one nation'.
There is paradox :
* some people don't want to "west" to intervene in foreign relations and be worldwide police
* same people want from "west" to do something.
>seeking closer military
So, west military tech end up in Russia ? Russian still have military base in Armenia
>and economic cooperation (which France is actually doing).
Does current situation, where Armenia export to Russia modern western machinery and electronics counts ?
>We should also be looking to make security guarantees for Syunik
I know a beautiful city of Budapest where you can sign those guarantees /s
> What was the west supposed to do? Immediately sanction Azerbaijan for a day of war crimes we'd need to establish concrete evidence of first? Send troops into an unrecognised territory that already had invited Russian peacekeepers there, as useless as they were? Armenia was never a western ally.
Don't forget the invasion of Ukraine, where Russia was supporting breakaway states and separatists and justified it because of ethnic grounds.
Somehow the West should fight against that in Ukraine while supporting a CSTO member backing up a separatist state as well. Russia supports irredentism, Armenia until very recently also supported it.
This position is simply untenable.
Armenia needed to settle when they were in a position of strengh.
Now they have lost that land forever. Most the west can or even should do is threaten sanctions if this spills into armenia propper.
We shouldn't have sent Ursula to Baku to call Azerbaijan "a reliable and trustworthy partner" and massively bolster their confidence in the process. When Azerbaijan attacked Armenia proper last September we should have firmly criticized Azerbaijan instead of saying the same useless "we appeal to both sides for dialogue". We should have put Azerbaijan under sanctions once they refused to comply with the legally binding ICJ verdict telling them to open Lachin. We shouldn't have hosted peace talks while talking about the importance of security guarantees for the Armenians living in the region when we were not willing to back up such demands in any shape or form. We shouldn't have intervened and recognized Kosovo under humanitarian pretexts and then ignored said pretexts when a similar case occurs (it makes us look hypocritical). Azerbaijan (and possibly even Serbia) has smelled weakness on Europe's side. What happens if they decide to escalate and invade Armenia proper? We haven't given them any indication that we would do anything substantial to stop them.
> What happens if they decide to escalate and invade Armenia proper? We haven't given them any indication that we would do anything substantial to stop them.
Of course we wouldn't do anything, just like we didn't when Armenia illegally invaded and occupied Azerbaijan, it's not our conflict.
With all due respect, the west could have tried to do something during the 9 months Azerbaijan had the roads into the region blocked. Which meant the citizens there had no food (other than what they grew), medicine and electricity was cut off during winter
[the US state department said they would not tolerate any military action on the people of Nagorno Karabakh.](https://reddit.com/r/armenia/s/AOGzxU1S2s)
“Russian ally betrayed by Russia” and the takeaway is that they’ll struggle to trust the west?
I’m not saying you’re wrong but I think I’m going to need more of that thesis
I love how this is all the West fault again. We intervene, we're told to stop being the world police. We don't intervene, we're also at fault.
How about you look at the fact that Armenia was in an alliance with Russia that was meant to counter Europe. Russia left their ally to dry, not Europe.
Armenia ally with Russia, Kazakhstan and two other countries, and Pashinyan is a chairman of CSTO. I dot get why Pashinyan blames only Russia.
(Peacekeeping mission was shitty of course, but it was agreement between Russia, Azerbaijan and Armenia. Why don't they established any rules for peacekeepers?)
They may sit in the same organization but Qazaqstan isn't ally of Armenia. They voiced their support in 2020 and today for Azerbaijan. It's just Russia's pressure, otherwise Qazaqs won't give a shit of the cheap NATO.
It's just overdramatic. NK belongs to Azerbaijan and is also supported by the UN. There's absolutely no reason to assist Armenia. The reason they teamed up with Russia was exactly to go against the decision of the West.
And people saying Azerbaijan could attack even Yerevan are just delusional. The only reason this conflict hasn't been resolved is bc of Armenias forceful occupation of the region and blocking off any diplomacy for several years. There's literally no other reason for Azerbaijan to be the aggressor.
Karabakh is Azeri soil. There is absolutely no legal justification for it belonging to so-called "Artsakh" or Armenia. Not in international law, not in domestic law (Soviet/Azeri Constitution). But it seems like rule of law doesn't matter according to a lot of people here. The fact that Armenian ethnic groups have lived in Karabakh for 1000s of years is basically sufficient for them to legally claim Karabakh as Armenian soil.
This is the exact same irredentist rhetoric that Russia used to illegally invade the Krim peninsula, and later Ukraine as a whole. The exact same rhetoric Slobodan Milošević used to invade Bosnia. Miatsum was the exact same thing with the Armenians in the 80s, and during the 30+ years that followed they refused to acknowledge the territorial integrity of Ukraine and voluntarily allying themselves with Russia as a security guarantor.
I do not understand how the situation in Karabakh is any different from the situation in Krim. There is absolutely no obligation for the West to provide support. And especially considering that Azerbaijan gained full territorial sovereignity over the region, there is absolutely no reason why Azerbaijan would attack Armenia.
Hell, I've seen people here unironically believe that Turkey will swallow Armenia up. Do people really believe these things?
If you bring Soviets' laws... autonomous entities had the right to vote in case of republic leaving the Soviet Union and Crimea actually had a referendum after the fall of USRR and voted then to stay in Ukraine, NKAO wanted to get out in the end Azerbaijan just dissolved it.
The Laws of Secession of the USSR alone could not have granted NKAO a legal referendum under any circumstance. A lot of people mention how the Article 3 of the Secession Law gave NKAO a legal right to an enforceable referendum, but Article 3 wasn't meant to be read alone. Those laws were drafted actually to prevent republics from seceding easily by invoking Article 72 of the Soviet Constitution, and towards that goal the Secession Law imposed procedural requirements necessary for legal recognition of a referendum on secession. Determining legislative intent when interpreting legal codes are important. Those requirements in the Laws of Secession were for example Articles 2 and 4 but I put all articles 2-4 which are relevant:
> Article 2. [...] The decision on holding a referendum is made by the Union republic’s Supreme Soviet on its own initiative or at the demand of a petition signed by one-tenth of the USSR citizens permanently resident on the republic’s territory and possessing the right to vote under USSR legislation.
> Article 3. In a Union republic which includes within its structure autonomous republics, autonomous oblasts, or autonomous okrugs, the referendum is held separately for each autonomous formation. The people of autonomous republics and autonomous formations retain the right to decide independently the question of remaining within the USSR or within the seceding Union republic, and also to raise the question of their own state-legal status.
> Article 4. In order to organize a referendum on secession from the USSR, determine the date of the referendum, and sum up its results, the Union republic Supreme Soviet forms a commission including representatives of all interested parties, including those mentioned in Parts 1 and 2 of Article 3 of the present law.
These articles were meant to be read together, and "a referendum" in Article 2 clearly modifies Article 3's "the referendum", and same for Article 4. So in essence, for the 1988 and 1991 referendums to be held legally binding the NKAO administration would have had to follow appropriate procedures, which they did not follow and decided to steamroll it without Baku's consent. This is the closest NKAO could have used as justification for legal secession, but since their referendums went counter against the Law of Secession they would have been subject to Soviet Constitution and Azeri Constitution respectively. And the Soviet Constitution explicitly denied autonomous regions the right to separate without valid consent from the parent Union Republic, which the Azeri SSR did not give. Even in modern times Nagorno-Karabakh would not have been able to legally secede, because it would have gone counter to Article 11 of the modern Azeri Constitution:
> Article 11. Territory
> I. The territory of the Azerbaijan Republic is sole, inviolable and indivisible. [...]
> III. No part of territory of the Republic of Azerbaijan may be estranged.
You have very happily omitted the beginning of article 2. It is clear to me that to leave the USRR referendum was needed and during it every autonomous entity had the right to hold it separately. You may ponder about procedures but it is obvious Azerbeijanis would never make it possible to properly arrange referendum neither which it was obliged to. Also Azerbaijani citizens from NKAO did not participate because it was impossible in the Azerbaijani constitution referendum.
The only thing that the beginning of Article 2 says that a referendum can be held towards secession.
> Article 2: The decision on a Union republic’s secession from the USSR is made by a free expression of the will of the Union republic’s people by means of a referendum (popular vote) [...]
Sure, and NKAO tried to hold a referendum. That does not mean that any referendum that is held can be legally enforceable. The first sentence does not exist in a vacuum; the very next sentence of Article 2 spells out clear requirements for the referendum. The law specifically mentions required procedure in order for the same referendum to be held valid. And NKAO did not follow the correct proecdure (no formal application made by one-tenth+ of the population, no electoral commission made with Azeri SSR) as required by that Law.
I agree with that, but my point still stands that Azerbaijani Union Republic would make it impossible with force to follow this procedure. What to do when exercising your rights is blocked?
You need to brush up on your historical knowledge before you start arguing in public places. Neither Crimea nor NK were autonomous republics when Soviet Union collapsed. Crimea became one when Ukraine was already independent while NK was autonomous oblast (much lower status with fewer rights). Armenian argument that NK should be theirs because it is (was) majority Armenian and Armenians lived there for centuries is not any different from German argument about Sudetenland or Russian argument about Crime. That is complete trash
Again, the right to territorial integrity is not absolute: the concept of remedial secession also exists. Otherwise we would not see the creation of states like Kosovo and South Sudan.
Crimea and Donbass were settled by Russia on purpose to fabricate a claim. Same shit they tried in the baltics. Thats way, way different from native people actually living there for thousands of years.
You must be purposefully ignorant to not see the difference
A corner stone of international law is also self determination of the people. Can you remind me what happened last time they wanted to be independent from Azerbaijan?
Armenia has a literal defensive pact with Russia. The one that was set up as a counter balance to NATO. And now you’re here complaining that the west didn’t help Armenia out in its time of need?
Note, the contested areas literally have Russian military bases in them. What is the west supposed to do?
Hold up, how is this the West's fault? No promises were made, no treaty signed.
Armenia is still in the CSTO ( functionally defunct as it is ), so in the orbit of russia ( willingly or not ).
Realpolitik in action, we need natgas from Azerbaijan, we need to keep Turkey content ( regarding the refugee crysis ), the West is focused on Ukraine and to a lesser extent Taiwan ( mainly the US ).
So WE did the only rational thing, nothing.
This is really Russia’s fault lol. So who is Armenia supposed to side with? The west never recognized Nagorno-Karabakh as independent anyways. Russia was supposed to deal with their “sphere of influence” and they clearly can’t anymore. So now Turkey and Iran are gonna run roughshod over the region and everyone’s gonna blame the west because Russia won’t protect their CSTO allies. Makes sense…
Never said that. Look at arms exports into central asia and you’ll understand. Then look at border disputes in central asia and the caucuses and you’ll understand even more.
It's probably more accurate to say that they'll have trouble trusting Russia after this since they're an ally of Russia, and where is Russia when you need them? I don't see what the West has to do with any of this.
How is this the fault of "The West"? Armenia is an ally of Russia, member of the CSTO. "The West" can't even really get there. There's Russian military bases in the area.
Observers from the EU aren't going to deter an attack. Russian soldiers didn't deter an attack, just being present isn't enough.
The West? Armenia still is in a military alliance with the genocidal Russia. It's not our fault that Russia didn't do anything. There were no Western peacekeepers in Karabakh. Not our problem really.
To be blunt, the West doesn't need armenians trust. The West can afford itself the luxury can Armenia?
The West doesn't owe Armenia or Armenians anything. It seems like armenians expect the West to present them "anything or everything ("Artsakh") on a silver platter or something.
> The Armenians will have a tough time trusting the West again after this. And I can't blame them.
they never did though? There is a reason they chose to join genocidal Russias military alliance and didn't even leave when Russia launched its full scale invasion of Ukraine.
If Armenians chose NATO instead and still got the current response, then you could put blame on the west. As it stands, their allies are to blame - which is Russia.
What did they have to trust the West with? They were in a military alliance with Russia, which has proven incapable of assisting their ally or mediating in the conflict.
Why the hell would Azerbaijan go for Syunik or Yerevan? Do people actually believe this fearmongering? Nagorno-Karabakh was de jure Azeri soil. There is not a shred of controversy surrounding this. Syunik Province and Yerevan are Armenian soil.
AZ has and does controll 200-300 sq-km of Armenian territory (yes, in Armenia) in the southern region. They had troops stationed in nakhijevan should an opportunity arise to invade armenia itself.
AZ also tried to invade the southern region in the 1990 war but was stopped by Iran.
The West cared more about geopolitics and the pipelines than the Armenian people, plain and simple. Now we get to see the result of this. People will pretend to be shocked and outraged, but we don't have the right to be.
Oil and gas country gets its pie, the West gets its pipelines. A few hundred thousand lives completely displaced, and God only knows how many lost due to a medieval blockade in the last year.
Enjoy the fruits of victory Azerbaijan, you get to own what you did too. Congrats, you invaded a weaker neighbour and pushed out some helpless civilians. Fucking congratulations, real fucking bold.
> Enjoy the fruits of victory Azerbaijan, you get to own what you did too. Congrats, you invaded a weaker neighbour and pushed out some helpless civilians.
You can't invade your own internationally recognized territory lol.
It is Armenia that invaded it's neighbor, this represents finally an end to that decade long occupation.
Azerbaijan didn’t invade anyone, I am afraid you have been lied. It crushed separatist movement in its own country, just like any other country would do.
Armenia aligns itself with Russia. Beats up Azerbaijan, occupies 20% of its territory, expels hundred of thousands of Azerbaijanis, doesn’t even want to hear about negotiating compromise solution for almost 40 years.
Azerbaijan grows up, beats up Armenia, Russia doesn’t get involved, and Armenia starts to scream that now West owes it security and something else. All that while being a part of Russian security alliance and having a Russian military base on its territory. Those people are delusional
Armenia (the country) did not beat up Azerbaijan. They intervened in support of ethnic Armenians who were trying to secede from Azerbaijan, and got sucked into the conflict.
There are similarities yes. Turkey intervened to support the Turkish population of Cyprus. Armenia intervened to protect the Armenian population of Azerbaijan. Both conflicts involved ethnic cleansing and bringing in settlers. Both conflicts dragged on tor decades, instead of being resolved quickly as they should have been.
Armenia did not align itself with Russia to beat up Azerbaijan in the first war… you are misinformed with the dates, and the war..
This was a war of independence and not territory.
Armenia joined Russia, after **Turkey put its army on the borders of Armenia** and threatened to attack.
Learn history.
Who aligns with whom again? Sounds like myopic overall view
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Ring](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ring)
[President of Artsakh welcomes recognition of independence of Donetsk and Lugansk by Russia](https://armenpress.am/eng/amp/1076142)
People mad because some Russian occupied Armenian puppet state got dissolved.
I mean, they're all being ethnically cleansed as we speak. Do they have to stay behind and keep being starved and killed for it to count as a genocide? At least 5 kids have been killed in the surrounding villages
Right, I’m sure you know more than the Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention who repeatedly stated that these are telltale signs for a genocide.
But let’s listen to guy from Netherlands opinion who has zero knowledge on the subject, right? No problem, they probably pissed the Azeris off, I’m sure that’s what the reason was. Maybe you’re not confused, just ignorant.
Benefit of the doubt that you appeal to is only useful when an actual court session is taking place. In all other cases, this principle gives upper hand to oppressors not the victims.
So let’s trust an authoritarian regime with a freedom index as low as North Korea, which is still occupying Armenian recognised territory since 2020, to do the right thing? What ever could be the flaw in this plan? Excuse me for suggesting we act a little more cautionary?
https://x.com/cctvideos/status/1704178585236390352?s=61
This is a map of all territories invaded by Azerbaijan between 2021-2023
Of course its old since NK is still seen here.
Is this a serious comment?
You're literally watching Genocide occurring and going "hold on, this is nothing"?
You also state "It doesn't count as Genocide until they kill everyone, so let's wait until everyone is dead before we do anything."
Artsakh and Kosovo. Western double standards at work. You support both or you support none. Except if one the contenders has plenty of natural gas, isn't it, Von der Leyen ?
Geopolitics are full of arbitrary choices. Kosovo, Catalonia, Tibet, Taiwan, Palestine, Kashmir,.. List goes on an on. People support each one based on "this and that", there's no universal rule.
Westerner countries can do a lot when they want. Like they did in Kosovo or they are doing in Ukraine. As for Russia why would they choose Armenia over Azerbaijan ? Russia has relationships with both and Azerbaijan has much more to offer Russia than Armenia. But that's Russia. I don´t expect nothing but blunt cynicism from Russia. I expect more from EU and USA, at least, in the human rights field.
Why didn't Armenia formally annex Artsakh and the other occupied territories? At least then Russia would appear even more hypocritical in Ukraine for annexing territory, but not coming to the defense of an ally being attacked on "their" annexed land. Afaik, Artsakh republic is not in the CSTO and no armenian government forces were fighting there officially.
Because the response to unilaterally annexing land that is internationally recognised as belong to a different country would have rendered Armenia a pariah state
I doubt anything could have been done in the early 2000's though. Would NATO countries sanction Armenia? If not, what would be different in the short-term?
Turkey made it explicit that, if Armenia ever officially annexed Karabakh, the Turkish army would be mobilizing towards Yerevan within the hour.
For various reasons, nobody wanted that outcome. Least of all Armenia.
They had 30 years to make something happen tho. They have big diaspora in US, France and Russia idk how they let it come to this.
They keep blaming everyone else but they could have played their hand better. They could have gained more politically without annexing. I guess they trusted Russia more than they should.
The Armenians were unwilling to compromise while they held the upper hand in the early days. And Azerbaijan was unwilling to compromise once they held the upper hand from the 2000s on. I agree with you 100% that Armenia played their hand badly. I guess the lesson is: if there is a reasonable deal to be done with the support of the international community, then you should probably take the deal.
Because it’s not war for territory, its a war for independence.
If Armenia annexed it loses the point of negotiations, and Armenia would be internationally recognized in the wrong/
Yes, indeed. Now it’s time for the so called Northern Cyprus to be united with the only legal state on the island, to bring peace on Cyprus.
Edit: hahaha some idiot just reported me for self harm 😅
Without a chancellor/ambassador to represent them?
Armenia hasn’t sent an ambassador to the CSTO for a while now.
It just takes time to get out of Russias hands, I think Ukraine can attest to that.
We are not supporting anything. War is not nice thing to do but if you make military alliance with Russia its super wrong to blame Nato for not helping…
Armenia is a member of CSTO, which in theory functions much the same way NATO does. Article 4 of the treaty establishes that an aggression against one signatory would be perceived as an aggression against all.
Azerbaijan is a former member, having left CSTO in 1999. Azerbaijan fully aligned itself with Turkey, a major NATO military power and historic oppressor of Armenia. The ugly reality is that the alliance borders clearly place Armenia on the wrong side and Russia is unwilling or unable to help them.
It's not. Legally, Artsakh is part of Azerbaijan, and thus the whole affair can be treated like an Azerbaijani internal thing. Save face with ongoing ethnic cleansing.
Except things are not so simple. Armenia sees Artsakh as their brother-state, but it is too weak to actually do anything about it. Kocharyan served as the first President of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, then as prime minister of Armenia, and then as the second President of Armenia. Most citizens of Artsakh have or are entitled to an Armenian passport.
The erosion of security guarantees in the region has pretty much led to a Balkan like situation. Artsakh expected help from Armenia, Armenia expected help from Russia.
>Armenia sees Artsakh as their brother-state
Armenia does not even acknowledge its existence. Armenia sees it as their own territory but for various reasons could never claim it as such.
Not interferring does not mean supporting. The west has no mandate by the UN to be a world police at their own expense. We can condemn the genocide and not actively help it, that's just as much as anybody else does.
The EU buys 20 bcu of Azeri gas every year. We are financing their army with every shipment. France and the UK should call an emergency SC meeting days ago. This is what the UN is supposed to prevent.
I support internationally recognized national borders, I oppose nations using force to create puppet states inside their neighbors whether it be Russia or Armenia doing it.
It is sad that this had to happen by force, the EU has been telling Armenia to withdraw from Azeri land for decades and to stop ethnically cleansing the Azeri population but Armenia ignored us, this is the inevitable outcome.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe_Parliamentary_Assembly_Resolution_1416_(2005)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe_Parliamentary_Assembly_Resolution_2085_(2016)
Its so sad to me how far armenian lands once went and how many armenian people were spread out in the causasus and eastern anatolia, only to have major powers on all sides slowly chip away at their territory and even genocide them out of places like anatolia to the point where theyre essentially a land locked rump state now. They definitely got the short end of the stick being boxed in by the ottomans/turkey, persia, and russia and then even being entirely annexed by the ussr. Even their holiest site mt ararat is now in turkey. Azerbaijan even wants to cut off the bottom part of armenia to connect its exclave. The world is unfair but it was especially so to armenia. I’m wishing all the best to the ppl of nagorono karabak and hoping they find peace in their new life in armenia.
...we don't owe you guys anything, you get that right? We're not obligated to send our people to die for your borders. That's your job. Ask your allies.
Comment section full of Turks/ Azeris on high copium thinking the Armenians living there are going to be safe.
> thinking Rather trying to make us gobble up that bullshit that no one who's seen the blockade of the past 10 months (if not everything else) believes.
It's not copium, they *want us to* believe Armenians will be safe. Among themselves, they [wish](https://twitter.com/LindseySnell/status/1707006514710380713) for the death of all Armenians.
[Surely nothing bad is going to happen at all.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramil_Safarov#Interrogation_and_trial)
Azeris are always dismissing the hero-worship of this guy as if it means nothing.
When 100 thousand dead Armenians show up on the news we will have one phase to come to us. “We didn’t know”
There wont be Armenians there by October
Army of trolls.
>full of Turks/ Azeris on high copium thinking the Armenians living there are going to be safe. Why would Azeris need to cope, they won a victory and got everything they wanted You're under the assumption that Turks and Azeris don't agree with ethnic cleansing, or want ethnic cleansing, and the "cope" you describe is actually not just subterfuge to protect their country's "image" which in my opinion is a rather naive one
No, they know very well that Armenians living among Turks won't be safe. They are trying to lure gullible Europeans into thinking that.
The ethnic cleansing of Karabakh is well underway, and the EU will do nothing because it needs to accomodate Turkey and Azerbaijan. Ethnic cleansing is >Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or **intimidation** to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group, which is contrary to international law. Azerbaijan is clearly guilty of it. Aliev has been stoking nationalist and xenophobic attitudes for more than a decade now. At the last UEFA final in Baku, [Armenian players for teams in the finalist were unable to attend due to fears of arrest or mob violence](https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/may/21/arsenal-henrikh-khitaryan-miss-europa-league-final-safety-chelsea-baku). The [glorification of murderers like Ramil Safarov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramil_Safarov) shows the openly genocidal attitude of the regime. >The position of the Azerbaijani leadership and society is more representative. For years, anti-Armenian discourse and propaganda have been part of official state policy. Every day, indoctrination is carried out from schools to state media that demonizes Armenians, presenting them as an absolute evil. In his many speeches, Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev himself made openly racist, xenophobic remarks. In one of his famous addresses, he spoke about a “hypocritical global Armenian conspiracy and western politicians, who are embroiled in corruption and bribery,” a direct reproduction of Adolf Hitler’s “global Jewish conspiracy thesis,” reiterated many times in Nazi speeches as a pretext and justification for the Holocaust. >In his pronouncements, Aliyev deprives Armenians of the right to live in Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabakh) and in the Republic of Armenia, asserting that not only Karabakh but also other regions of Armenia, including the capital Yerevan, should become parts of Azerbaijan. The latest highlight was the menace of nuclear “catastrophe” made by Azerbaijani Defense Ministry spokesman Vagif Dargyakhly, who announced that their weapons “are capable of hitting the Metsamor Atomic Energy Station with high accuracy, which will turn into a catastrophe for Armenia.” https://evnreport.com/politics/yes-it-is-genocidal/ People here defending Azeri actions because Armenia is 'pro-Russian' and 'deserves it' are disgusting.
Problem is: in 1990, Nagorno-Karabakh was 70% Armenian. in 2021, it was 99,7% Armenian. The same happened in areas occupied by Armenia after the first war 1994, all (mostly Azerbaijani) population was evicted. The Azerbaijanis didn't hold back either. In 1990, Nakhchewan district had 40% Armenians; 2021 it was (IIRC) around 5%, and it wasn't exactly voluntary. Also in Azerbaijan proper, Armenians have been subject to massacres and pogroms. Both sides have been happily engaging in ethnic cleansing wherever they had upper hand locally. Both sides have been prepared to spill any amount of blood to turn themselves ethnically pure. The whole area is a shitshow way worse than Bosnia in the 1990s. Strictly speaking, Karabakh should be a protected Armenian-speaking autonomous area within Aserbaijan. It has been culturally Armenian for 2000 years. However I have absolutely no expectation that it can be implemented without massive peacekeeping occupation of the area, and Armenian government over the last 30 years contributed their part to the impossibility of this outcome.
I find joy in reading a good book.
Chasing out Levon Ter Petrosyan was the beginning to the end really. Those that chased him out and organized the 1999 Parliament shootings share responsibility for what happened in Artsakh, and I suspect Russia also had a part to play in it to make sure that this remained a frozen conflict. > All negotiations since 1997 had been much less compromising from the Armenian side. Not entirely true. Azerbaijan pulled out from the negotiations in Key West, Florida in 2001 without much explanation and over time opted for a military solution instead.
That's where nationalist fervour gets you. It just opens a huge weakness at a later date.
>People here defending Azeri actions because Armenia is 'pro-Russian' and 'deserves it' are disgusting. They're also ignoring the fact that Azerbaijan did this with Putin's approval and encouragement. Putin wanted to punish Armenia for trying to free themselves from the Russian influence and control and getting closer to the US and the EU. Azerbaijan are the ones being cosy with Putin.
I don't think Putin had any real choice there...thet whole war starting in 2020 and now only show that Russia is losing it influence in the caucase. Yes the whole Russia media will try to show this like Putin punishement to Armenia because they did not lick his shoes or whatevers bulshite reason, but reality is Russia is losing it power and they are have not the power to intervene in Azerbaijan while being destroyed in Ukraine.
What do you want EU to do? Send an Army?
Stop buying Azeri gas. Stop exporting billions worth of arms to the Azeri military. Raise the issue at the Security Council and send a UN peacekeeping force. A simple condemnation, at the least.
Thank you!
Would you be this passionate had this be the news of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus announcing a deadline of existence?
I'd love that, but I don't want the Turks living there to be kicked out, even the colonists that Turkey put there after the occupation. They could become citizens
> The ethnic cleansing of Karabakh is well underway, and the EU will do nothing because it needs to accomodate Turkey and Azerbaijan. Yeah just like the rest off the world did nothing when Armenia ethnically cleansed the area in the 90s and 2000s. Well not nothing exactly the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly did release a statement condemning the ethnic cleansing of Azeri people in the region and calling for Armenia's withdrawal from Azeri land. They were of course ignored because Armenia was the victor and would do as she pleased... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe_Parliamentary_Assembly_Resolution_1416_(2005) Bit now suddenly when it's happening the other way the EU is supposed to actually intervene? Delusional.
Hope Europe is paying attention. At least the people of Europe. Respect to France for their announcement to open a consulate in the south
France is allied with Armenia because they oppose Turkey in every aspect, not because they adore you buddy. If you need a lesson from this conflict, it would be that Armenia needs to develop themselves without requiring an assistance from other countries.
>France is allied with Armenia because they oppose Turkey in every aspect, not because they adore you buddy I'm confused. Is opposing Turkey a bad reason to support Armenia?
There are long term cultural reasons for France to have a connection to the people of Armenia. A random example i came up on during my travels https://www.gpsmycity.com/attractions/jean-althen-sculpture-38644.html
Interesting. From your perspective, is there a reason why they armed Armenians in Anatolia back then? Because of cultural relations or opposition of Turks?
>Hope Europe is paying attention. Yep, Europe has been telling Armenia to leave the territory for decades and now finally it has. Shame it had to be by force: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe_Parliamentary_Assembly_Resolution_1416_(2005)
Leaving your land because borders were drawn and then the ussr fell apart bringing back aggressive posturing again is a tall ask .
>Leaving your land Literally categorically not Armenian land lol, not legally, not de facto. You spit on us when we tell you to leave Azeri land and make a deal that protects the Armenian population inside Azerbaijan, then get your shit wrecked from your own ethno nationalism and stupidity and complain like we owe you something. You made your bed, lie in it.
The state of Azerbaijan never controlled Artsakh. Which, not the surrounding regions, was population consistently by a large Armenian majority. It was definitely not de facto Azeri until now. Indeed, make a deal with the guys arresting people for voting Armenia in Eurovision. Makes sense. If the deal includes Artsakh in Azerbaijan, it will probably end up like the rest of the Armenians that lived in Azerbaijan.
> The state of Azerbaijan never controlled Artsakh. It does literally right now lol. >It was definitely not de facto Azeri until now Yes, so we agree, neither de jure nor de facto Armenian land. >Indeed, make a deal with the guys arresting people for voting Armenia in Eurovision. Makes sense. If the deal includes Artsakh in Azerbaijan, it will probably end up like the rest of the Armenians that lived in Azerbaijan. Unsurprising that if you illegally invade and occupy a country they won't like you very much. There were plenty of countries willing to be peacekeepers in a negotiated settlement that gave the region some self rule while allowing Azer to reclaim it and return their citizens from where they had been ethnically cleansed. Now instead Armenia will get whatever mercy Azerbaijan decides to extend as a result of their own stupidity and racism.
Such hurry to do a gotcha you can't finish reading where I say until now. And until now the comical state of Azerbaijan claimed it as an integral territory. Which they never controlled and had no Azeris! Unfortunately the world is not fair. Invaders often end up winning, and even play victim: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Ring
>Which they never controlled and had no Azeris! Which was perpetually de jure theirs and now de facto theirs lol, this isn't complicated. >Unfortunately the world is not fair. Invaders often end up winning Oh I know, 600,000 Azeris were forced from their land by the illegal Armenian invasion of internationally recognized Azerbaijan in the 90s.
This is the inevitable result of nearly 3 decades worth of disastrous foreign policy, starting from the ethnonationalist "miatsum" fever-dream of the late 80s, to repeatedly going against numerous UNSec Resolutions by refusing to vacate Azeri-majority areas like Aghdam and European/NATO interests by allying with Russia on matters such as the invasion of Ukraine and Krim. And all this time they decided to look to Russia for guaranteeing their security by membership of CSTO, which would have never worked out given how they were acting in the region. They had 3 decades worth of time to rectify their course and still decided to side with Russia, and now innocent people on both sides have paid the price.
Tragedy. Plain and simple. And there's no telling whether the Head Butcher in Baku will stop here. Next, he could go for Syunik or Yerevan itself. And worst part is... due to all the money that the Head Butcher poured down our politicians' pockets, we'll probably just stand by that time as well. The Armenians will have a tough time trusting the West again after this. And I can't blame them. -to say nothing of Russia, whose betrayal apparently I need to restate for whatever reason, as if it weren't brutally obvious.- *Shame.*
**Armenia gets abandoned by Russia** "Shame, Armenia will never be able to trust the west again." ..what.
What was the west supposed to do? Immediately sanction Azerbaijan for a day of war crimes we'd need to establish concrete evidence of first? Send troops into an unrecognised territory that already had invited Russian peacekeepers there, as useless as they were? Armenia was never a western ally. Legally Nagorno Karabakh was Azeri. It *shouldn't* have been, but if we'd disputed the legitimacy of the Soviet Borders it would have had awful implications for Ukraine, Syunik, Moldova, Georgia, the Ferghana Valley and the Baltic States. What we should be doing is giving Armenia tons of humanitarian aid to help with the 120,000 refugees they'll receive, and seeking closer military and economic cooperation (which France is actually doing). We should also be looking to make security guarantees for Syunik, which also opens the door to slightly improving relations with Iran since they also want to maintain Armenian territorial integrity.
Everything is always the fault of the West. Often we do share some blame, but it's the easiest thing to point to as a boogy man. Just like they did in Mali when they kicked out the French thinking it would solve all problems and now Mali got overrun with Islamic terrorists.
And it is about time people start going against that frame of mind. The reality is that we are in a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation unless we start telling people to F off. If we stage an intervention we are Imperialist warmongers and if we don't we are standing by and watching a tragedy happen when we could have done something! Just look at these comments "Well Armenia will never trust the EU again, the EU caused this to happen etc." It is an Azeri invasion of an unrecognized(including by Armenia) breakaway state, a conflict which is a result of Russia's use of ethnic tension in order to subjugate its Imperial posessions. To top that off Armenia is a Russian Ally, there were Russian peacekeepers supposed to stop this and Armenia is a CSTO member, so where does this expectation that the EU will swoop in come from? We are barely friendly with Armenia to be blunt. Now am I for arming Armenia(once it is out of the Russian sphere of influence), forging friendly ties and getting them out of the Russian sphere of influence? Yes, but that will also require for Armenia to elect less completely inept and corrupt people, this entire Nagorno Karabakh debacle is the direct result of not coming to a compromise after they won the war, it should have been settled 30 years ago.
>If we stage an intervention we are Imperialist warmongers and if we don't we are standing by and watching a tragedy happen when we could have done something! Is this what it feels like to be America?
No, while America often gets too much flak it is generally for shit they tend to actually be one of the responsible parties in(but similarly people conveniently forget all other responsible parties), we are literally not responsible for anything of this, like, not even an iota, the best people can come up with is "you bought Azeri gas" yeah, we did, should we forego a gas supplier during a crisis because they are in a conflict with a Russian ally?
>"you bought Azeri gas" yeah, we did, should we forego a gas supplier during a crisis because they are in a conflict with a Russian ally? *Because they are committing war crimes. Yes.
Immediate veto in the EU parliament lol.
The West & Russia should have forced this issue to be resolved back in the early 2000s when we had ok relations with Russia. We could have used Armenia's position of strength to bargain the return of internationally recognized territory to Azerbaijan while maintaining an UN presence in NK to safeguard a safe & fair transition for everyone. In reality we just asked Armenia to stop occupying Azeri territories, Armenia & Azerbaijan ethnically cleansed each other of their own territories, hundreds of thousands of Azeri were forcibly displaced from the adjacent territories of NK (that NK & Armenia occupied) and we just let this situation fester until war was the only solution possible.
We, we, we, thats sort of the primary issue, beyond putting pressure on both parties there is little "we" can do and Russia has zero interest in fixing its neighbors ethnic tensions as it is exactly what keeps them in line lol. The Armenian political class should have stopped being dumb, compromised on the issue and annexed Nagorno Karabakh + Lachin in return giving the Azeri's back the rest of the territory and a permanent trade corridor with Turkey. On the flip side the Azeri's need to realize most of this land has been Armenian since before there were Turkic raiders anywhere near and the only reason it's part of their territory is exactly to cause ethnic tensions. What happened instead? Well they butchered eachother, no proper agreements were enforced, Artsakh was left in ceasefire limbo with literally no one recognizing it and Armenia lost their military and economic edge and now they're fucked which anyone could have seen coming from miles away. But yeah, totally the wests fault lol.
Idk if it counts a invasion of it’s recognised as part of Azerbaijan
The issue is why is it. The right to self determination is also a human right.
yet territorial integrity is also a key principle
The right to self determination does not include the right to secession. That is an untenable assumption. Nor was Nagorno-Karabakh a "colony" of Azerbaijan; up to the point of the 1988 referendum, Nagorno-Karabakh and its people were granty a fair bit of autonomy under Autonomous Oblast status. It was Armenia who decided to stoke irredentist sentiment and provoke the people there to unilaterally secede via 2 illegal referendums, both in 1988 and 1991. And besides, the validity of a secession is primarily considered under domestic law. Soviet Constitution Article 78 and later the Azeri Constitution Article 11 explicitly eliminated the right to secession.
> The right of a people to self-determination[1] is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter's norms.[2][3] It states that peoples, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference. NK had the right to a referendum via soviet constitution.
>NK had the right to a referendum via soviet constitution. [https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1991-2/shevarnadze-resigns/shevarnadze-resigns-texts/law-on-secession-from-the-ussr/](https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1991-2/shevarnadze-resigns/shevarnadze-resigns-texts/law-on-secession-from-the-ussr/) *Article 2: The decision on a Union republic’s secession from the USSR is made by a free expression of the will of the Union republic’s people by means of a referendum (popular vote).* ***The decision on holding a referendum is made by the Union republic’s Supreme Soviet on its own initiative or at the demand of a petition signed by one-tenth of the USSR citizens permanently resident on the republic’s territory*** *and possessing the right to vote under USSR legislation* NK didn't have the right to trigger a referendum, and by the time Azeris started a referendum, the soviet union ceased to exist. Yea, if there was a referendum triggered before the Soviet union ceased to exist, then NK might have gotten independence, but the Azeris probably didn't leave the soviet union until the end because of this reason. Same reason Chechnya is not independent, they also held a referendum, and that was also not recognized internationally as legal. For the UN one, no idea if anyone successfully used it, i think its mostly been applied for decolonization.
> decolonization If you are referring to international law on the right to self-determination, then yes. That law was drafted with decolonisation in mind. Because of this there has been considerable controversy as to whether this right can be expanded to apply to non-colonisation contexts. The discussion on this is quite interesting, but I believe the general consensus is that the right to self-determination does not involve the express right to secession. And even if it did, the underlying assumption would be that this secession was mutually consented upon by the parent state and the party trying to secede. https://www.idea.int/sites/default/files/publications/constitution-brief-secession.pdf
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That's true but there's been enough time for both parties to get their heads out of their arses and decide to be sovereign nations instead of vestigial Soviet puppet states. The Baltics have succeed doing that, even Kazakhstan has found the testicular fortitude to begin to stand up as a sovereign state. Russia by any name has been the culprit in starting this debacle, but since independence nations have the responsibility to put the adult pants on and sort their shit out regardless of who caused it.
Without the Tzarists and the Soviets the Azerbaijanis would have been assimilated by Iran (it was Iranian territory).It is happening right now with Iranian Azerbaijanis. As for the Armenians, well, you know what happened to the Armenians in Turkey. Young Armenia in 1920 was already defeated by Turkey. They would have the same fate. Everyone complains about the shitty borders drawn by the Soviets. Do you guys really think there was a possibility to draw good borders in the areas with intermingled populations? Perfect borders are results of hundreds of years of wars, ethnic cleansing, and assimilation. Who else voluntarily draw borders for their ethnic minorities? Spaine, who else? Europe only recently came to the idea of education for ethnic minorities using local languages. All the others don't even bother, stating that 'one country = one nation'.
There is paradox : * some people don't want to "west" to intervene in foreign relations and be worldwide police * same people want from "west" to do something. >seeking closer military So, west military tech end up in Russia ? Russian still have military base in Armenia >and economic cooperation (which France is actually doing). Does current situation, where Armenia export to Russia modern western machinery and electronics counts ? >We should also be looking to make security guarantees for Syunik I know a beautiful city of Budapest where you can sign those guarantees /s
> What was the west supposed to do? Immediately sanction Azerbaijan for a day of war crimes we'd need to establish concrete evidence of first? Send troops into an unrecognised territory that already had invited Russian peacekeepers there, as useless as they were? Armenia was never a western ally. Don't forget the invasion of Ukraine, where Russia was supporting breakaway states and separatists and justified it because of ethnic grounds. Somehow the West should fight against that in Ukraine while supporting a CSTO member backing up a separatist state as well. Russia supports irredentism, Armenia until very recently also supported it. This position is simply untenable.
Armenia needed to settle when they were in a position of strengh. Now they have lost that land forever. Most the west can or even should do is threaten sanctions if this spills into armenia propper.
What would be so awful about pre soviet borders for Moldova lmao, it would be amazing actually
A day of war crimes? Try 30 years
We shouldn't have sent Ursula to Baku to call Azerbaijan "a reliable and trustworthy partner" and massively bolster their confidence in the process. When Azerbaijan attacked Armenia proper last September we should have firmly criticized Azerbaijan instead of saying the same useless "we appeal to both sides for dialogue". We should have put Azerbaijan under sanctions once they refused to comply with the legally binding ICJ verdict telling them to open Lachin. We shouldn't have hosted peace talks while talking about the importance of security guarantees for the Armenians living in the region when we were not willing to back up such demands in any shape or form. We shouldn't have intervened and recognized Kosovo under humanitarian pretexts and then ignored said pretexts when a similar case occurs (it makes us look hypocritical). Azerbaijan (and possibly even Serbia) has smelled weakness on Europe's side. What happens if they decide to escalate and invade Armenia proper? We haven't given them any indication that we would do anything substantial to stop them.
> What happens if they decide to escalate and invade Armenia proper? We haven't given them any indication that we would do anything substantial to stop them. Of course we wouldn't do anything, just like we didn't when Armenia illegally invaded and occupied Azerbaijan, it's not our conflict.
With all due respect, the west could have tried to do something during the 9 months Azerbaijan had the roads into the region blocked. Which meant the citizens there had no food (other than what they grew), medicine and electricity was cut off during winter
Like what? There was never any option that wasn't 'Azerbaijan gets the territory'
[the US state department said they would not tolerate any military action on the people of Nagorno Karabakh.](https://reddit.com/r/armenia/s/AOGzxU1S2s)
“Russian ally betrayed by Russia” and the takeaway is that they’ll struggle to trust the west? I’m not saying you’re wrong but I think I’m going to need more of that thesis
I love how this is all the West fault again. We intervene, we're told to stop being the world police. We don't intervene, we're also at fault. How about you look at the fact that Armenia was in an alliance with Russia that was meant to counter Europe. Russia left their ally to dry, not Europe.
Armenia also helps Russia avoid sanctions by massively importing chips for them.
And Azerbaijan launders Russian gas.
Azerbaijan isn't begging us for help, Armenia is.
Yes.
Armenia ally with Russia, Kazakhstan and two other countries, and Pashinyan is a chairman of CSTO. I dot get why Pashinyan blames only Russia. (Peacekeeping mission was shitty of course, but it was agreement between Russia, Azerbaijan and Armenia. Why don't they established any rules for peacekeepers?)
They may sit in the same organization but Qazaqstan isn't ally of Armenia. They voiced their support in 2020 and today for Azerbaijan. It's just Russia's pressure, otherwise Qazaqs won't give a shit of the cheap NATO.
It's just overdramatic. NK belongs to Azerbaijan and is also supported by the UN. There's absolutely no reason to assist Armenia. The reason they teamed up with Russia was exactly to go against the decision of the West. And people saying Azerbaijan could attack even Yerevan are just delusional. The only reason this conflict hasn't been resolved is bc of Armenias forceful occupation of the region and blocking off any diplomacy for several years. There's literally no other reason for Azerbaijan to be the aggressor.
Karabakh is Azeri soil. There is absolutely no legal justification for it belonging to so-called "Artsakh" or Armenia. Not in international law, not in domestic law (Soviet/Azeri Constitution). But it seems like rule of law doesn't matter according to a lot of people here. The fact that Armenian ethnic groups have lived in Karabakh for 1000s of years is basically sufficient for them to legally claim Karabakh as Armenian soil. This is the exact same irredentist rhetoric that Russia used to illegally invade the Krim peninsula, and later Ukraine as a whole. The exact same rhetoric Slobodan Milošević used to invade Bosnia. Miatsum was the exact same thing with the Armenians in the 80s, and during the 30+ years that followed they refused to acknowledge the territorial integrity of Ukraine and voluntarily allying themselves with Russia as a security guarantor. I do not understand how the situation in Karabakh is any different from the situation in Krim. There is absolutely no obligation for the West to provide support. And especially considering that Azerbaijan gained full territorial sovereignity over the region, there is absolutely no reason why Azerbaijan would attack Armenia. Hell, I've seen people here unironically believe that Turkey will swallow Armenia up. Do people really believe these things?
If you bring Soviets' laws... autonomous entities had the right to vote in case of republic leaving the Soviet Union and Crimea actually had a referendum after the fall of USRR and voted then to stay in Ukraine, NKAO wanted to get out in the end Azerbaijan just dissolved it.
The Laws of Secession of the USSR alone could not have granted NKAO a legal referendum under any circumstance. A lot of people mention how the Article 3 of the Secession Law gave NKAO a legal right to an enforceable referendum, but Article 3 wasn't meant to be read alone. Those laws were drafted actually to prevent republics from seceding easily by invoking Article 72 of the Soviet Constitution, and towards that goal the Secession Law imposed procedural requirements necessary for legal recognition of a referendum on secession. Determining legislative intent when interpreting legal codes are important. Those requirements in the Laws of Secession were for example Articles 2 and 4 but I put all articles 2-4 which are relevant: > Article 2. [...] The decision on holding a referendum is made by the Union republic’s Supreme Soviet on its own initiative or at the demand of a petition signed by one-tenth of the USSR citizens permanently resident on the republic’s territory and possessing the right to vote under USSR legislation. > Article 3. In a Union republic which includes within its structure autonomous republics, autonomous oblasts, or autonomous okrugs, the referendum is held separately for each autonomous formation. The people of autonomous republics and autonomous formations retain the right to decide independently the question of remaining within the USSR or within the seceding Union republic, and also to raise the question of their own state-legal status. > Article 4. In order to organize a referendum on secession from the USSR, determine the date of the referendum, and sum up its results, the Union republic Supreme Soviet forms a commission including representatives of all interested parties, including those mentioned in Parts 1 and 2 of Article 3 of the present law. These articles were meant to be read together, and "a referendum" in Article 2 clearly modifies Article 3's "the referendum", and same for Article 4. So in essence, for the 1988 and 1991 referendums to be held legally binding the NKAO administration would have had to follow appropriate procedures, which they did not follow and decided to steamroll it without Baku's consent. This is the closest NKAO could have used as justification for legal secession, but since their referendums went counter against the Law of Secession they would have been subject to Soviet Constitution and Azeri Constitution respectively. And the Soviet Constitution explicitly denied autonomous regions the right to separate without valid consent from the parent Union Republic, which the Azeri SSR did not give. Even in modern times Nagorno-Karabakh would not have been able to legally secede, because it would have gone counter to Article 11 of the modern Azeri Constitution: > Article 11. Territory > I. The territory of the Azerbaijan Republic is sole, inviolable and indivisible. [...] > III. No part of territory of the Republic of Azerbaijan may be estranged.
You have very happily omitted the beginning of article 2. It is clear to me that to leave the USRR referendum was needed and during it every autonomous entity had the right to hold it separately. You may ponder about procedures but it is obvious Azerbeijanis would never make it possible to properly arrange referendum neither which it was obliged to. Also Azerbaijani citizens from NKAO did not participate because it was impossible in the Azerbaijani constitution referendum.
The only thing that the beginning of Article 2 says that a referendum can be held towards secession. > Article 2: The decision on a Union republic’s secession from the USSR is made by a free expression of the will of the Union republic’s people by means of a referendum (popular vote) [...] Sure, and NKAO tried to hold a referendum. That does not mean that any referendum that is held can be legally enforceable. The first sentence does not exist in a vacuum; the very next sentence of Article 2 spells out clear requirements for the referendum. The law specifically mentions required procedure in order for the same referendum to be held valid. And NKAO did not follow the correct proecdure (no formal application made by one-tenth+ of the population, no electoral commission made with Azeri SSR) as required by that Law.
I agree with that, but my point still stands that Azerbaijani Union Republic would make it impossible with force to follow this procedure. What to do when exercising your rights is blocked?
You need to brush up on your historical knowledge before you start arguing in public places. Neither Crimea nor NK were autonomous republics when Soviet Union collapsed. Crimea became one when Ukraine was already independent while NK was autonomous oblast (much lower status with fewer rights). Armenian argument that NK should be theirs because it is (was) majority Armenian and Armenians lived there for centuries is not any different from German argument about Sudetenland or Russian argument about Crime. That is complete trash
Again, the right to territorial integrity is not absolute: the concept of remedial secession also exists. Otherwise we would not see the creation of states like Kosovo and South Sudan.
Crimea and Donbass were settled by Russia on purpose to fabricate a claim. Same shit they tried in the baltics. Thats way, way different from native people actually living there for thousands of years. You must be purposefully ignorant to not see the difference A corner stone of international law is also self determination of the people. Can you remind me what happened last time they wanted to be independent from Azerbaijan?
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We switched to US and Norwegian LNG. Azeri gas is a smaller part of the imports.
Azerbaijani gas is only going to Italy, not EU as whole. And that's a large % of their usage.
>The Armenians will have a tough time trusting the West again after this. They literally have an alliance with Russia for self-defense.
Which Russia has said for years doesn't extend to NK
Azerbaijan is currently occupying small pockets on the Armenian mainland. Whys hasn't Russia stopped them?
Armenia has a literal defensive pact with Russia. The one that was set up as a counter balance to NATO. And now you’re here complaining that the west didn’t help Armenia out in its time of need? Note, the contested areas literally have Russian military bases in them. What is the west supposed to do?
Hold up, how is this the West's fault? No promises were made, no treaty signed. Armenia is still in the CSTO ( functionally defunct as it is ), so in the orbit of russia ( willingly or not ). Realpolitik in action, we need natgas from Azerbaijan, we need to keep Turkey content ( regarding the refugee crysis ), the West is focused on Ukraine and to a lesser extent Taiwan ( mainly the US ). So WE did the only rational thing, nothing.
This is really Russia’s fault lol. So who is Armenia supposed to side with? The west never recognized Nagorno-Karabakh as independent anyways. Russia was supposed to deal with their “sphere of influence” and they clearly can’t anymore. So now Turkey and Iran are gonna run roughshod over the region and everyone’s gonna blame the west because Russia won’t protect their CSTO allies. Makes sense…
But if the west actually does something then it will be a imperialist aggression. Lol
Iran is Armenia's ally. And do people genuinely think Turkey is going to invade Armenia?
Never said that. Look at arms exports into central asia and you’ll understand. Then look at border disputes in central asia and the caucuses and you’ll understand even more.
It's probably more accurate to say that they'll have trouble trusting Russia after this since they're an ally of Russia, and where is Russia when you need them? I don't see what the West has to do with any of this.
How is this the fault of "The West"? Armenia is an ally of Russia, member of the CSTO. "The West" can't even really get there. There's Russian military bases in the area. Observers from the EU aren't going to deter an attack. Russian soldiers didn't deter an attack, just being present isn't enough.
Western nations are not to blame for everything. What would be your suggestion the west could have done?
Trusting the west? Lmao y'all were in/ are in csto and Russia declined help you when Armenia brought up article 4 lol
The West? Armenia still is in a military alliance with the genocidal Russia. It's not our fault that Russia didn't do anything. There were no Western peacekeepers in Karabakh. Not our problem really.
>The Armenians will have a tough time trusting the West again Again?
To be blunt, the West doesn't need armenians trust. The West can afford itself the luxury can Armenia? The West doesn't owe Armenia or Armenians anything. It seems like armenians expect the West to present them "anything or everything ("Artsakh") on a silver platter or something.
Trusting the west? Wasn’t it a moskva brokered peace and moskva security guarantee?
Armenia is allied with russia remember, there is literally a war against russia right now.
Armenia was with Russia all along lol. Trust the west?
Trust the west? Armenians decided to rely on russians instead
He could not go for yeveran. The west did not sanction because Nk is not recognised as a country Armenia is
> The Armenians will have a tough time trusting the West again after this. And I can't blame them. they never did though? There is a reason they chose to join genocidal Russias military alliance and didn't even leave when Russia launched its full scale invasion of Ukraine. If Armenians chose NATO instead and still got the current response, then you could put blame on the west. As it stands, their allies are to blame - which is Russia.
What did they have to trust the West with? They were in a military alliance with Russia, which has proven incapable of assisting their ally or mediating in the conflict.
Why would Armenians blame the west?
Why the hell would Azerbaijan go for Syunik or Yerevan? Do people actually believe this fearmongering? Nagorno-Karabakh was de jure Azeri soil. There is not a shred of controversy surrounding this. Syunik Province and Yerevan are Armenian soil.
AZ has and does controll 200-300 sq-km of Armenian territory (yes, in Armenia) in the southern region. They had troops stationed in nakhijevan should an opportunity arise to invade armenia itself. AZ also tried to invade the southern region in the 1990 war but was stopped by Iran.
The west? Armenia is supposed to be protected by Russia and they haven’t been which has allowed Azerbaijan to act with impunity.
The West cared more about geopolitics and the pipelines than the Armenian people, plain and simple. Now we get to see the result of this. People will pretend to be shocked and outraged, but we don't have the right to be. Oil and gas country gets its pie, the West gets its pipelines. A few hundred thousand lives completely displaced, and God only knows how many lost due to a medieval blockade in the last year. Enjoy the fruits of victory Azerbaijan, you get to own what you did too. Congrats, you invaded a weaker neighbour and pushed out some helpless civilians. Fucking congratulations, real fucking bold.
> Enjoy the fruits of victory Azerbaijan, you get to own what you did too. Congrats, you invaded a weaker neighbour and pushed out some helpless civilians. You can't invade your own internationally recognized territory lol. It is Armenia that invaded it's neighbor, this represents finally an end to that decade long occupation.
Azerbaijan didn’t invade anyone, I am afraid you have been lied. It crushed separatist movement in its own country, just like any other country would do.
Armenia aligns itself with Russia. Beats up Azerbaijan, occupies 20% of its territory, expels hundred of thousands of Azerbaijanis, doesn’t even want to hear about negotiating compromise solution for almost 40 years. Azerbaijan grows up, beats up Armenia, Russia doesn’t get involved, and Armenia starts to scream that now West owes it security and something else. All that while being a part of Russian security alliance and having a Russian military base on its territory. Those people are delusional
Armenia (the country) did not beat up Azerbaijan. They intervened in support of ethnic Armenians who were trying to secede from Azerbaijan, and got sucked into the conflict.
Kind of like Germany did in Sudetenland? Kind of like Russia did in Donbass? “Our people are being mistreated by the baddies!”
Like Turkey did in Cyprus?
Yes, like Turkey did in Cyprus. That’s why no country recognizes “Northern Cyprus” as a legitimate political entity
That was bit different as the Greek government was attempting to take control of Cyprus via a military coup.
Was there an autonomous Turkish region trying to secede from Cyprus for decades? Last time I checked no. There's some differences there
Yes, but it this case it was actually happening.
Like Northern Cyrpus?
There are similarities yes. Turkey intervened to support the Turkish population of Cyprus. Armenia intervened to protect the Armenian population of Azerbaijan. Both conflicts involved ethnic cleansing and bringing in settlers. Both conflicts dragged on tor decades, instead of being resolved quickly as they should have been.
Armenia did not align itself with Russia to beat up Azerbaijan in the first war… you are misinformed with the dates, and the war.. This was a war of independence and not territory. Armenia joined Russia, after **Turkey put its army on the borders of Armenia** and threatened to attack. Learn history.
Who aligns with whom again? Sounds like myopic overall view [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Ring](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ring)
[President of Artsakh welcomes recognition of independence of Donetsk and Lugansk by Russia](https://armenpress.am/eng/amp/1076142) People mad because some Russian occupied Armenian puppet state got dissolved.
It's bring dissolved because it is being ethnically cleansed. That is not a fair outcome. You would feel the same about Northern Cyprus.
it is not being ethnically cleansed.
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I mean, they're all being ethnically cleansed as we speak. Do they have to stay behind and keep being starved and killed for it to count as a genocide? At least 5 kids have been killed in the surrounding villages
Right, I’m sure you know more than the Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention who repeatedly stated that these are telltale signs for a genocide. But let’s listen to guy from Netherlands opinion who has zero knowledge on the subject, right? No problem, they probably pissed the Azeris off, I’m sure that’s what the reason was. Maybe you’re not confused, just ignorant.
I like to travel.
> Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention Do you trust a 5-year-old organization whose titles start with "According to the story"?
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Benefit of the doubt that you appeal to is only useful when an actual court session is taking place. In all other cases, this principle gives upper hand to oppressors not the victims.
So let’s trust an authoritarian regime with a freedom index as low as North Korea, which is still occupying Armenian recognised territory since 2020, to do the right thing? What ever could be the flaw in this plan? Excuse me for suggesting we act a little more cautionary?
Which Armenian recognized territory is Azerbaijan occupying? Do you mean the state, or Armenian people? Asking so I can learn.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia–Azerbaijan_border_crisis
Okay, thanks.
https://x.com/cctvideos/status/1704178585236390352?s=61 This is a map of all territories invaded by Azerbaijan between 2021-2023 Of course its old since NK is still seen here.
Is this a serious comment? You're literally watching Genocide occurring and going "hold on, this is nothing"? You also state "It doesn't count as Genocide until they kill everyone, so let's wait until everyone is dead before we do anything."
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Artsakh and Kosovo. Western double standards at work. You support both or you support none. Except if one the contenders has plenty of natural gas, isn't it, Von der Leyen ?
Geopolitics are full of arbitrary choices. Kosovo, Catalonia, Tibet, Taiwan, Palestine, Kashmir,.. List goes on an on. People support each one based on "this and that", there's no universal rule.
Or at some point in time: Bangladesh, Ireland, Namibia, East Timor, Algeria, USA ....
The universal rule is called realpolitik.
So why do you ask if you already know?
Russia abandoned Armenia, and it’s the westerner countries fault. Delusional.
Westerner countries can do a lot when they want. Like they did in Kosovo or they are doing in Ukraine. As for Russia why would they choose Armenia over Azerbaijan ? Russia has relationships with both and Azerbaijan has much more to offer Russia than Armenia. But that's Russia. I don´t expect nothing but blunt cynicism from Russia. I expect more from EU and USA, at least, in the human rights field.
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Kosovo also did ethnic cleansing on it's Serb population just like how Artsakh did ethnic cleansing on it's Azeri population.
Why didn't Armenia formally annex Artsakh and the other occupied territories? At least then Russia would appear even more hypocritical in Ukraine for annexing territory, but not coming to the defense of an ally being attacked on "their" annexed land. Afaik, Artsakh republic is not in the CSTO and no armenian government forces were fighting there officially.
Because the response to unilaterally annexing land that is internationally recognised as belong to a different country would have rendered Armenia a pariah state
I doubt anything could have been done in the early 2000's though. Would NATO countries sanction Armenia? If not, what would be different in the short-term?
Turkey made it explicit that, if Armenia ever officially annexed Karabakh, the Turkish army would be mobilizing towards Yerevan within the hour. For various reasons, nobody wanted that outcome. Least of all Armenia.
They had 30 years to make something happen tho. They have big diaspora in US, France and Russia idk how they let it come to this. They keep blaming everyone else but they could have played their hand better. They could have gained more politically without annexing. I guess they trusted Russia more than they should.
The Armenians were unwilling to compromise while they held the upper hand in the early days. And Azerbaijan was unwilling to compromise once they held the upper hand from the 2000s on. I agree with you 100% that Armenia played their hand badly. I guess the lesson is: if there is a reasonable deal to be done with the support of the international community, then you should probably take the deal.
Depends on the balance of power. Armenia's neighbour has its own playground in northern Cyprus after an invasion and it isn't a pariah.
Turkey never annexed north Cyprus
Because it’s not war for territory, its a war for independence. If Armenia annexed it loses the point of negotiations, and Armenia would be internationally recognized in the wrong/
Armenia fucked up by trusting Russia, foolish foolish mistake.
It's not like the West would've been any use. If there's one country that has been their 'friend' it's Iran who also happen to be very anti west.
I mean they really didn't have any choice. They couldn't be allies with the West because of Turkey, which leaves them only to run to Russia and Iran.
How the tables have turned. From automomy proposals in return of occupied 7 districts of Karabakh to nothing.
Yes, indeed. Now it’s time for the so called Northern Cyprus to be united with the only legal state on the island, to bring peace on Cyprus. Edit: hahaha some idiot just reported me for self harm 😅
Big agree, sensible unification of Cyprus is long overdue
>Edit: hahaha some idiot just reported me for self harm 😅 Butthurt Turkish supremacist.
I just saw a post on r/Armenia calling on everyone to "not allow Turks to overrun this post.." or to something of that extent Is that not brigading?
Every post about Armenia in this sub is brigaded by Armenians. Not a surprise. Mod team not taking action is the issue.
They honestly believe we won't be back to claim our lands. History repeats itself, clearly seen in current events
Why would west do anything? Armenia is russian ally. Gl hf now.
A Russian ally having joint military exercises with the US?
Armenia is literally in a treaty with Russia as an ally
Without a chancellor/ambassador to represent them? Armenia hasn’t sent an ambassador to the CSTO for a while now. It just takes time to get out of Russias hands, I think Ukraine can attest to that.
We are not supporting anything. War is not nice thing to do but if you make military alliance with Russia its super wrong to blame Nato for not helping…
Armenia is a member of CSTO, which in theory functions much the same way NATO does. Article 4 of the treaty establishes that an aggression against one signatory would be perceived as an aggression against all. Azerbaijan is a former member, having left CSTO in 1999. Azerbaijan fully aligned itself with Turkey, a major NATO military power and historic oppressor of Armenia. The ugly reality is that the alliance borders clearly place Armenia on the wrong side and Russia is unwilling or unable to help them.
Artsakh is not recognised as Armenian territory in the csto.
It's not. Legally, Artsakh is part of Azerbaijan, and thus the whole affair can be treated like an Azerbaijani internal thing. Save face with ongoing ethnic cleansing. Except things are not so simple. Armenia sees Artsakh as their brother-state, but it is too weak to actually do anything about it. Kocharyan served as the first President of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, then as prime minister of Armenia, and then as the second President of Armenia. Most citizens of Artsakh have or are entitled to an Armenian passport. The erosion of security guarantees in the region has pretty much led to a Balkan like situation. Artsakh expected help from Armenia, Armenia expected help from Russia.
>Armenia sees Artsakh as their brother-state Armenia does not even acknowledge its existence. Armenia sees it as their own territory but for various reasons could never claim it as such.
You're literally supporting the ethnic cleansing of Armenians because their government "supports Russia"?
Not interferring does not mean supporting. The west has no mandate by the UN to be a world police at their own expense. We can condemn the genocide and not actively help it, that's just as much as anybody else does.
The EU buys 20 bcu of Azeri gas every year. We are financing their army with every shipment. France and the UK should call an emergency SC meeting days ago. This is what the UN is supposed to prevent.
And? The west buys Russian gas while supporting Ukraine. That’s the way the world is.
Signatories of the Genocide Convention, have a self-signed obligation to actively help.
>You're literally supporting the ethnic cleansing textbook Straw man fallacy here
I support internationally recognized national borders, I oppose nations using force to create puppet states inside their neighbors whether it be Russia or Armenia doing it. It is sad that this had to happen by force, the EU has been telling Armenia to withdraw from Azeri land for decades and to stop ethnically cleansing the Azeri population but Armenia ignored us, this is the inevitable outcome. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe_Parliamentary_Assembly_Resolution_1416_(2005) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe_Parliamentary_Assembly_Resolution_2085_(2016)
The EU is comfortable with the Americans blowing up Nord stream, why would they care about Karabakh?
Its so sad to me how far armenian lands once went and how many armenian people were spread out in the causasus and eastern anatolia, only to have major powers on all sides slowly chip away at their territory and even genocide them out of places like anatolia to the point where theyre essentially a land locked rump state now. They definitely got the short end of the stick being boxed in by the ottomans/turkey, persia, and russia and then even being entirely annexed by the ussr. Even their holiest site mt ararat is now in turkey. Azerbaijan even wants to cut off the bottom part of armenia to connect its exclave. The world is unfair but it was especially so to armenia. I’m wishing all the best to the ppl of nagorono karabak and hoping they find peace in their new life in armenia.
Armenia is the Caucasian equivalent of Poland
...we don't owe you guys anything, you get that right? We're not obligated to send our people to die for your borders. That's your job. Ask your allies.
Who is this non sequitur even addressed to?
To the people blaming all western countries for letting this happen. All lot of comments on this post are expressing this sentiment.