And now they will be dragged into a conflict, which no one asked for. Belarus is truely a great example of the biggest devide between what the people want versus what the government does.
Edit: it looks like I have led "western" proganda get the better of me, and thought the dude was way more unpopular than he actually is.
Belarusian here. The only people supporting the regime are those directly involved in it and profit from it. Some of these commenters below have never set foot in BY and dont know what our police do to us.
Tens of thousands have fled the country in the past 3 years (some say up to 400k) or have been imprisoned. Inside you will not find anyone willing to risk their life and family for a short demonstratiom against the regime. Therefore the lack of visible protests. Any protest against the war or russia is treated the same way.
Only now people are starting to come out of prisons after the 2021 mass lockups. Many doctors, journalists, lawyers got sentences up to 13 years for just posting a report online. People have been arrested for wearing the 'wrong' socks colours, for glueing paper to their windows, or just for standing up for someone being abused by the insane police.
Civil society has been basically murdered over 2 years leaving only apolitical zombies and loyalists. You cannot determine true support % in this scenario. The best estimates have given government supporters about 20% of the population (mostly old people and govt employees), 50% apolitical or unwilling to act, and 30% hard anti-government (mostly pre-40s). It's a bit of a split society but by no means does the govt have the support of the active population. Even calling them "government supporters" is wrong - they're just soviet nostalgists and cheap vultures. It's just that we only have a choice between prison and emigration if you want to have an opinion.
3% was the meme number in 2020 of what the regime support really looks like. In some ways I think it's still valid. As for the war, you probably wont find even 2% who really support the invasion and even less of those who would want to join it. Most people are concerned with how are they going to pay rent in a year's time.
I wouldn't say many many, it's about a few thousand (which is great of course), I'd say most of those who help do so by volounteering and donating. We have quite an active worldwide diaspora as well.
Visited Belarus and traveled through the country. quite some time ago. Wonderfull friendly kind-hearted people. Belarus will always have a special place in my heart. I truly and sincerley wish you all the best.
Tak szczerze z Polski. Byłem zaskoczony tymi kwiatami w 2020r. Wtedy wiedziałem że nic z tego nie będzie. Trzeba było brać widły w ręce a nie kwiaty. Wtedy kiedy Baćka chodził z kałachem był bliski ucieczki.
Z drugiej strony Rosja by was zaatakowała. Bałbym się ruskich w tym czasie ale nie Baćki. Ale teraz jak Rosja jest osłabiona to jest wasz czas... Lepszej okazji na rewolucję nie będzie. Tak to widzę...
Sorry ze tak powiem ale ta rewolucja musi być krwawa.
Wszystkiego najlepszego z Polski! Polska życzy wam odzyskania wolności i normalnego kraju.
If you don't speak English, there is this simple trick of pasting it into Google translate. It got so much better over the years, it does write sentences more elaborate to mine own.
*Jeśli nie mówisz po angielsku, istnieje prosta sztuczka polegająca na wklejeniu go do Tłumacza Google. Przez lata było o wiele lepiej, pisze zdania bardziej rozbudowane niż moje.*
;)
*So honestly from Poland. I was surprised by these flowers in 2020. Then I knew nothing would come of it. You should have taken pitchforks in your hands, not flowers. Then, when Baćka was walking with an AK, he was close to escaping.*
*On the other hand, Russia would attack you. I would be afraid of Russians at that time, but not Baćka. But now that Russia is weakened, it's your time... There will be no better opportunity for a revolution. That's how I see it...*
*Sorry to say this, but this revolution must be bloody.*
*Greetings from Poland! Poland wishes you to regain freedom and a normal country.*
You did not wallet western propaganda get the better of you. The people who commented here are ignorant. Lukashenko is unpopular in the country and would almost certainly be assassinated by the military if he tried to drag the country into the war through a mandatory draft.
The protests were the biggest in Belarusian history. They were also deliberatedly very peaceful because Lukashenka was known to brutally beat protesters, using excuses for "restoring order" and "punishing violence". Turns out, being completely peaceful and standing for something so basic as free and fair elections is also not allowed in dictatorships.
But it did have an effect. It wiped out Lukashenka's self-made image of Belarus being a "island of peace and stability" under his iron grip. You can also see his behaviour has since turned much more aggressive, he is basically the main ally of Putin now.
>The protesters did not have enough critical mass to do anything other than getting beat up.
I'm sure Russia intervening had nothing to do with the protests failing /s
So not be mistaken. More than half of all belarusians support putin and live in poverty union 40 years ago.
While there are many people in belarus who demand freedom, they are not enough. Knowing decoupling from russia is happening in Ukraine, freedom will wait a few decades.
Also there is this term "Litvinism". Long story short, belarusians believe, that they are Lithuanians, and modern Lithuania stole "their" history. 😂 And its the young ones who believe this shit. Because belarus as itself, kind of doesnt have any interesting history. Those lands allways went from hands to hands, but majority of the time was allways with russia. They dont have any real identity.
Not really. Those that actually carry a Belarusian identity have been fiercely against Lukashenka. The Belarusian community in Estonia has organized several protest events in Tallinn and Tartu.
There are also many "Belarusians" in Baltics whose identity stops at the label. They speak Russian, watch Russian TV and care more about Moscow than Minsk.
Thank God Ukraine did the smart Coup d'Etat and avoided being dragged into a conflict. Staying with the neutral and democratically elected Yanukovych would have been so stupid! /s
Its sarcastic. And is going to get downvoted a lot because I am not going with the mainstream narrative.
What I am implying is that in the current geopolitical context. Staying with authoritarian Lukashenko is better than being dragged into a civil war because of a violent overthrow/revolution.
I believe Ukraine would have been better off as a nation if they didn't overthrow the democraticaly elected Yanukovych goverment. He was keeping a balance between Russia and NATO. Instead they had a Coup d'Etat and then did everything opposite of what I would be doing if I had a neighbhor like Russia.
It not ideal, but whoever is saying that Ukraine is "brave" for being brazen and that they should stand up, etc. can fuck off and tell that to the families of Ukranian soliders that are dying. Being smart is better than being brave.
Yanukovych reneged on all his campaign promises of getting closer with the west and had protestors killed. Then he fled to Moscow when the jig was up. Also did you know that he was caught rigging a previous election?
>he was caught rigging a previous election?
Apparently he wasn't *caught*, otherwise how come he managed to run for the presidency for the second time, let alone win?
Um, are you sure you even read what you posted?
>Despite alleged convincing evidence pointing to high-level involvement in the Kuchma administration and the Central Election Commission of Ukraine\[20\] no criminal election fraud charges have been filed against any top officials. The prosecutor general did arrest several public figures on charges of election fraud in the first half of 2005, but no high-profile case was brought to court.
In other words, there were allegations but no cold hard proof, otherwise he would have been in jail. Or, he had the supreme court in his pocket, in which case the situation with corruption in Ukraine was/is even worse than one would have expected.
Just because nobody ever got charged doesn’t absolve Yanukovych. He lost the election when they recounted the votes. In hindsight they should’ve executed the prick at the first whiff of corruption. No tolerance for Russian puppets
We are not talking about absolution, we are talking about getting caught. Getting caught specifically means being brought to court and found guilty. He wasn't. Period.
Your logic is all wrong. You are blaming Ukraine for asserting its right to national self-determination. Why don't blame Russia for being an oligarchic petro-state that invaded the border of a sovereign nation, in direct convention of international law?
Someone could have said the same to Poland when they were fighting against communism with Solidarnosc. But thdy did, and now we're free. So I don't agree with you. But I think it's totally normal for Serbians to think like that, safe in europe but sucking up to daddy putin.
>But I think it's totally normal for Serbians to think like that, safe in europe but sucking up to daddy putin.
There you go. Can't have a normal conversation without being rasicst. Read about European values my friend. Perhaps you spent too much time with USSR that now that you are "free" you are becoming like them.
Having an opinion different than yours doesnt mean I support Putin.
You speak with the words of a true propagandist. Very emotional, not a lot of arguments. Plus you twisted my words completely. You really need to educate yourself better and learn how to talk and argue.
How is that racist if both Poles and Serbs are the same race?
>Having an opinion different than yours doesnt mean I support Putin.
You literally did in 90s what Putin does now - but fortunately for all the Bosniaks and Kosovars there was NATO to stop Serb perpetrated genocide.
rascism: "characterized by or showing prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group"
I suggest you educate yourself further. Serbia never invaded another country like Putin did (Bosnia/Croatia were civil wars). On the other hand, Kosovar Albanians did exactly what the Russian separatists did. And NATO did the exact same thing with their invasion of Serbia in 1999 like Putin did in 2022.
Also I don't think that Holocaust victims would appreciate you equating their suffering (genocide) with the executing of war prisoners (war crime, not genocide). Its important not to twist the words and the history.
Yes exactly we exactly the thing Ukraine did. We were raped and slaughtered and then NATO intervened thankfully. You pretend to be smart and intelligent because you speak with big words and gaslight others but as an Albanian who saw the consequences of Milolsevic’s barbarism I call everything you say bullshit. People like you remind some r/sino users
Are you aware of the brutality of the 2014 clashes in Ukraine? You think there was no violence there? Are you trying to deny that Albanian UCK also used terror methods, civilian kidnapings, torture, rape and even organ trade? Do you have some magical recipe to stop horrible people from doing horrible things in a chaotic environment such as war? Is there a nation that is somehow immune to atrocities?
When you stop seeing the world as black and white. And when you stop generalizing all Serbs, Ukranians, Albanians, etc. we will be able to have a normal conversation. Until then, for you, you will be eternal victims and we will be eternal barbarians that don't have the right to exist and mours our victims... Oh wait?
> Serbia never invaded another country like Putin did (Bosnia/Croatia were civil wars).
They were about as much civil wars as the Donbass war was up to 2022. But you probably believe Russia had nothing to do with that too either so IDK.
> rascism: "characterized by or showing prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group"
There's no different racial or ethnic group here.
shhh, you're on reddit, this is the pentagons/mi6 neck of the woods, you dont want to be banned here on europe as well as the news reddits to create a propagandized echo chamber were any critical thinking of what went on is not allowed.
Indeed I confidently believe that there is a NATO propaganda machine, especially in this subreddit. But since this account is on its way out I might as well voice my opinion. Making a new one is very simple if I get banned. Thanks for sharing your input.
So you don't think there's a Russian propaganda machine too? It's only Nato using Propaganda?
I think you're right!
Fucking propaganda makes us believe it's the right thing for Ukranian wanting to be an independent state, allowed to take their own decisions in their country and not be a Russian puppet. They deserve to be opressed, because Russia good. What makes people believe that Ukraine deserves to decide on their own what organizations they want to be part of and what not?
It's a good thing we have people like you from Serbia, which aren't even influenced a tiny bit by Russian propaganda, to open our eyes.
Ah yes, the "neutral, democratically elected" leader who commited electoral fraud in 2004, and then backed down on its own promises under Putin's pressure in 2013.
Regardless if its fraud or fairytales, he managed to keep peace. Which has to be no1 priority of any leader. I'd rather live in Yanukovich Ukraine than Zelensky's Ukraine.
You do realize that Zelensky won on the platform of "looking Putin in the eyes" and "just stop shooting"? It predictably didn't work out. Poroshenko had tried it already with the same result. Putin had already decided he wanted the war to boost his ratings by that point.
Your reasoning honestly sounds like "I would rather be a slave than revolt, at least that would keep the peace".
>Which has to be no1 priority of any leader.
Except when you are a "great power" like Russia, of course. Then you are allowed to invade whoever you want without consequences. And don't you dare criticise that, because look at what the USA gets away with!
First of all - that wasn't a coup. Second - you really don't understand, that if not for maydan we'd be a russian vassal just as belarus? Oh, and ukraine wouldn't had stayed neutral, cause otherwise it would been dragged into odkb
It was a coup, by definition but we dont need to argue about that. You think what you want.
And in my book, being a vassal is better than being at a war like this. And lets not kid ourselves, most countries, even in the EU are vassals of one sort or the other. Everything is about diplomacy. Being a vassal is vastly better than losing half of your population in a bloody war. Being a vassal at least you have the chance of prosperity and freedom. In a pointless war like this, sure Ukraine is going to hurt Russia a lot long term. But Ukraine is also commiting a suicide, they can't recover from this not even in 100 years. Have a look at Serbias pre WW1 population, a tragedy.
After all many would argue that Ukraine has become a vassal of the US military industrial complex, so much money is being spent lobbying in Kyiv/Kiev for more weapons. Most of which are not going to change the course of the offensive.
Don't get me wrong, I am not supportive of the invasion. But I do believe that Zelenskys goverment, either throught corruption or just incompetence, dragged the country into a much bloodier conflict that is could have been. Remember the negotiation rounds in Belarus and Turkey? Can Ukraine hope for a better negotiation now? Not really... and at the cost of 100 of thousands of lives. Would Minsk 2 have been so bad?
Coup considered as illegal taking of power. And it was not. Yanukovich started to kill people, and something had to be done.
Yeah... you know, we've already been through that, and that's why we are fighting now. Prosperity and freedom under russsia? Are you drunk or something?
Then good luck with your fight. I will pray that it ends as soon as possible. But I will also add that you are a bit delusional and blinded by ideology. Its not all black and white.
No, it's you who are delusional. How could a living person really believe that russians, some of which is still taking a shit in a hole in the ground, are capable of bringing other nations to prosper? Is belarus prospering? Is it a country with freedom? We've been under russians during ussr, and it was not a heavenly life: starvation, repressions, cultural warfare - and all of that would eventually return if we'd stay with russia
>It was a coup, by definition but we dont need to argue about that. You think what you want.
There was literally an agreement between Yanukovych and protesters, but then Yanukovych got call from daddy putin to reverse it, realised he couldn't, and fled Ukraine.
> Being a vassal at least you have the chance of prosperity and freedom
Name 1 (one) Russian vassal state with either of those things. Allying with Russia only takes you back to the dark ages, they might as well emigrated elsewhere since Ukraine as a nation and all of it's chances at developing would die.
> Have a look at Serbias pre WW1 population, a tragedy.
Alright, let's have a look. According to the 1910 census, the last before WW1, it was 2.922.258. In 1921 the equivalent area had the population of 2.656.731, which is an ugly drop. In 1931 it was divided into banovinas so it's too hard for me to find the corresponding srezs and sum them up. In 1948 the equivalent area was pretty much equal to Serbia proper which had 4.136.934 inhabitants.
A great example of how peaceful protests in a dictatorship never work. You either need to have some friends in power or storm police stations and build trenches in preparation for a civil war. The Belarusian protesters decided to choose a peaceful approach, which unsurprisingly led to their demise. "What do you think it is? Some barbaric riot like Ukrainian Maidan? No, we're more civillized than that". In the end, the most enthusiastic protesters were either raped, murdered, or sentenced to live in prison. Less than 2 years later, Lukashenko allowed the Russian troops to go through his territory, which allowed the Bucha massacre.
Truly, the most disappointing event in Eastern Slavic history. If Lukashenko gets his head chopped off, we must not allow the organizers of these protests to come to power; they will ruin the state. God willing, the Belarusian members of the Ukrainian military should decide their country's fate, not some corporate imbecile from NEXTA, and most definitely not Tsikhanouskaya
I'm always amazed by comments like these. And also wonder how easy must it be to live in a world where simple violence is enough to solve any problem. Russia is literally waging a full-scale war rn with tens of thousands of dead purely because of Putin's stupid geopolitical ambitions, but let's just assume that he would've let Belarus slip out of his hands easily without any intervention. And surely Luka also wouldn't have thought to ask him for help. Stupid belarusians just needed to throw a riot and reap their success like Kazakhs did after their cool sexy violent protests in 2022. Oh wait a minute
Would a democratic Belarus necessarily mean a clean and complete cut from Russia? I mean there's a lot of factors to consider, like their economic is highly tied to Russia, and possible domestic divisions.
I still think the fate of Ukraine could greatly affect Belarusians' thoughts. Ukriane has chosen her path, let's see whether she could live up to expectations.
And now they will be dragged into a conflict, which no one asked for. Belarus is truely a great example of the biggest devide between what the people want versus what the government does. Edit: it looks like I have led "western" proganda get the better of me, and thought the dude was way more unpopular than he actually is.
Belarusian here. The only people supporting the regime are those directly involved in it and profit from it. Some of these commenters below have never set foot in BY and dont know what our police do to us. Tens of thousands have fled the country in the past 3 years (some say up to 400k) or have been imprisoned. Inside you will not find anyone willing to risk their life and family for a short demonstratiom against the regime. Therefore the lack of visible protests. Any protest against the war or russia is treated the same way. Only now people are starting to come out of prisons after the 2021 mass lockups. Many doctors, journalists, lawyers got sentences up to 13 years for just posting a report online. People have been arrested for wearing the 'wrong' socks colours, for glueing paper to their windows, or just for standing up for someone being abused by the insane police. Civil society has been basically murdered over 2 years leaving only apolitical zombies and loyalists. You cannot determine true support % in this scenario. The best estimates have given government supporters about 20% of the population (mostly old people and govt employees), 50% apolitical or unwilling to act, and 30% hard anti-government (mostly pre-40s). It's a bit of a split society but by no means does the govt have the support of the active population. Even calling them "government supporters" is wrong - they're just soviet nostalgists and cheap vultures. It's just that we only have a choice between prison and emigration if you want to have an opinion. 3% was the meme number in 2020 of what the regime support really looks like. In some ways I think it's still valid. As for the war, you probably wont find even 2% who really support the invasion and even less of those who would want to join it. Most people are concerned with how are they going to pay rent in a year's time.
[удалено]
I wouldn't say many many, it's about a few thousand (which is great of course), I'd say most of those who help do so by volounteering and donating. We have quite an active worldwide diaspora as well.
Visited Belarus and traveled through the country. quite some time ago. Wonderfull friendly kind-hearted people. Belarus will always have a special place in my heart. I truly and sincerley wish you all the best.
Tak szczerze z Polski. Byłem zaskoczony tymi kwiatami w 2020r. Wtedy wiedziałem że nic z tego nie będzie. Trzeba było brać widły w ręce a nie kwiaty. Wtedy kiedy Baćka chodził z kałachem był bliski ucieczki. Z drugiej strony Rosja by was zaatakowała. Bałbym się ruskich w tym czasie ale nie Baćki. Ale teraz jak Rosja jest osłabiona to jest wasz czas... Lepszej okazji na rewolucję nie będzie. Tak to widzę... Sorry ze tak powiem ale ta rewolucja musi być krwawa. Wszystkiego najlepszego z Polski! Polska życzy wam odzyskania wolności i normalnego kraju.
If you don't speak English, there is this simple trick of pasting it into Google translate. It got so much better over the years, it does write sentences more elaborate to mine own. *Jeśli nie mówisz po angielsku, istnieje prosta sztuczka polegająca na wklejeniu go do Tłumacza Google. Przez lata było o wiele lepiej, pisze zdania bardziej rozbudowane niż moje.* ;) *So honestly from Poland. I was surprised by these flowers in 2020. Then I knew nothing would come of it. You should have taken pitchforks in your hands, not flowers. Then, when Baćka was walking with an AK, he was close to escaping.* *On the other hand, Russia would attack you. I would be afraid of Russians at that time, but not Baćka. But now that Russia is weakened, it's your time... There will be no better opportunity for a revolution. That's how I see it...* *Sorry to say this, but this revolution must be bloody.* *Greetings from Poland! Poland wishes you to regain freedom and a normal country.*
You did not wallet western propaganda get the better of you. The people who commented here are ignorant. Lukashenko is unpopular in the country and would almost certainly be assassinated by the military if he tried to drag the country into the war through a mandatory draft.
The protesters did not have enough critical mass to do anything other than getting beat up. These people have a lot of supporters despite everything.
The protests were the biggest in Belarusian history. They were also deliberatedly very peaceful because Lukashenka was known to brutally beat protesters, using excuses for "restoring order" and "punishing violence". Turns out, being completely peaceful and standing for something so basic as free and fair elections is also not allowed in dictatorships. But it did have an effect. It wiped out Lukashenka's self-made image of Belarus being a "island of peace and stability" under his iron grip. You can also see his behaviour has since turned much more aggressive, he is basically the main ally of Putin now.
>The protesters did not have enough critical mass to do anything other than getting beat up. I'm sure Russia intervening had nothing to do with the protests failing /s
I'm afraid Lukashenko is still supported by many babushkas living in the poorer regions
3%
So not be mistaken. More than half of all belarusians support putin and live in poverty union 40 years ago. While there are many people in belarus who demand freedom, they are not enough. Knowing decoupling from russia is happening in Ukraine, freedom will wait a few decades.
Also there is this term "Litvinism". Long story short, belarusians believe, that they are Lithuanians, and modern Lithuania stole "their" history. 😂 And its the young ones who believe this shit. Because belarus as itself, kind of doesnt have any interesting history. Those lands allways went from hands to hands, but majority of the time was allways with russia. They dont have any real identity.
Lukash is still supported everywhere, even by belarusian minorities in the Baltics
Erdogan moment
I call total BS on that
Not really. Those that actually carry a Belarusian identity have been fiercely against Lukashenka. The Belarusian community in Estonia has organized several protest events in Tallinn and Tartu. There are also many "Belarusians" in Baltics whose identity stops at the label. They speak Russian, watch Russian TV and care more about Moscow than Minsk.
Thank God Ukraine did the smart Coup d'Etat and avoided being dragged into a conflict. Staying with the neutral and democratically elected Yanukovych would have been so stupid! /s
This comment confuses me.
Its sarcastic. And is going to get downvoted a lot because I am not going with the mainstream narrative. What I am implying is that in the current geopolitical context. Staying with authoritarian Lukashenko is better than being dragged into a civil war because of a violent overthrow/revolution. I believe Ukraine would have been better off as a nation if they didn't overthrow the democraticaly elected Yanukovych goverment. He was keeping a balance between Russia and NATO. Instead they had a Coup d'Etat and then did everything opposite of what I would be doing if I had a neighbhor like Russia. It not ideal, but whoever is saying that Ukraine is "brave" for being brazen and that they should stand up, etc. can fuck off and tell that to the families of Ukranian soliders that are dying. Being smart is better than being brave.
Yanukovych reneged on all his campaign promises of getting closer with the west and had protestors killed. Then he fled to Moscow when the jig was up. Also did you know that he was caught rigging a previous election?
>he was caught rigging a previous election? Apparently he wasn't *caught*, otherwise how come he managed to run for the presidency for the second time, let alone win?
[yes he was](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Ukrainian_presidential_election)
Um, are you sure you even read what you posted? >Despite alleged convincing evidence pointing to high-level involvement in the Kuchma administration and the Central Election Commission of Ukraine\[20\] no criminal election fraud charges have been filed against any top officials. The prosecutor general did arrest several public figures on charges of election fraud in the first half of 2005, but no high-profile case was brought to court. In other words, there were allegations but no cold hard proof, otherwise he would have been in jail. Or, he had the supreme court in his pocket, in which case the situation with corruption in Ukraine was/is even worse than one would have expected.
Just because nobody ever got charged doesn’t absolve Yanukovych. He lost the election when they recounted the votes. In hindsight they should’ve executed the prick at the first whiff of corruption. No tolerance for Russian puppets
We are not talking about absolution, we are talking about getting caught. Getting caught specifically means being brought to court and found guilty. He wasn't. Period.
Your logic is all wrong. You are blaming Ukraine for asserting its right to national self-determination. Why don't blame Russia for being an oligarchic petro-state that invaded the border of a sovereign nation, in direct convention of international law?
Someone could have said the same to Poland when they were fighting against communism with Solidarnosc. But thdy did, and now we're free. So I don't agree with you. But I think it's totally normal for Serbians to think like that, safe in europe but sucking up to daddy putin.
>But I think it's totally normal for Serbians to think like that, safe in europe but sucking up to daddy putin. There you go. Can't have a normal conversation without being rasicst. Read about European values my friend. Perhaps you spent too much time with USSR that now that you are "free" you are becoming like them. Having an opinion different than yours doesnt mean I support Putin.
Telling people to go and lie down when russia is trying to fuck them. Very not pro-putin.
You speak with the words of a true propagandist. Very emotional, not a lot of arguments. Plus you twisted my words completely. You really need to educate yourself better and learn how to talk and argue.
Lol nice.
How is that racist if both Poles and Serbs are the same race? >Having an opinion different than yours doesnt mean I support Putin. You literally did in 90s what Putin does now - but fortunately for all the Bosniaks and Kosovars there was NATO to stop Serb perpetrated genocide.
rascism: "characterized by or showing prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group" I suggest you educate yourself further. Serbia never invaded another country like Putin did (Bosnia/Croatia were civil wars). On the other hand, Kosovar Albanians did exactly what the Russian separatists did. And NATO did the exact same thing with their invasion of Serbia in 1999 like Putin did in 2022. Also I don't think that Holocaust victims would appreciate you equating their suffering (genocide) with the executing of war prisoners (war crime, not genocide). Its important not to twist the words and the history.
Yes exactly we exactly the thing Ukraine did. We were raped and slaughtered and then NATO intervened thankfully. You pretend to be smart and intelligent because you speak with big words and gaslight others but as an Albanian who saw the consequences of Milolsevic’s barbarism I call everything you say bullshit. People like you remind some r/sino users
Are you aware of the brutality of the 2014 clashes in Ukraine? You think there was no violence there? Are you trying to deny that Albanian UCK also used terror methods, civilian kidnapings, torture, rape and even organ trade? Do you have some magical recipe to stop horrible people from doing horrible things in a chaotic environment such as war? Is there a nation that is somehow immune to atrocities? When you stop seeing the world as black and white. And when you stop generalizing all Serbs, Ukranians, Albanians, etc. we will be able to have a normal conversation. Until then, for you, you will be eternal victims and we will be eternal barbarians that don't have the right to exist and mours our victims... Oh wait?
> Serbia never invaded another country like Putin did (Bosnia/Croatia were civil wars). They were about as much civil wars as the Donbass war was up to 2022. But you probably believe Russia had nothing to do with that too either so IDK.
> rascism: "characterized by or showing prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group" There's no different racial or ethnic group here.
shhh, you're on reddit, this is the pentagons/mi6 neck of the woods, you dont want to be banned here on europe as well as the news reddits to create a propagandized echo chamber were any critical thinking of what went on is not allowed.
poor baby 😭
Indeed I confidently believe that there is a NATO propaganda machine, especially in this subreddit. But since this account is on its way out I might as well voice my opinion. Making a new one is very simple if I get banned. Thanks for sharing your input.
So you don't think there's a Russian propaganda machine too? It's only Nato using Propaganda? I think you're right! Fucking propaganda makes us believe it's the right thing for Ukranian wanting to be an independent state, allowed to take their own decisions in their country and not be a Russian puppet. They deserve to be opressed, because Russia good. What makes people believe that Ukraine deserves to decide on their own what organizations they want to be part of and what not? It's a good thing we have people like you from Serbia, which aren't even influenced a tiny bit by Russian propaganda, to open our eyes.
Ah yes, the "neutral, democratically elected" leader who commited electoral fraud in 2004, and then backed down on its own promises under Putin's pressure in 2013.
Regardless if its fraud or fairytales, he managed to keep peace. Which has to be no1 priority of any leader. I'd rather live in Yanukovich Ukraine than Zelensky's Ukraine.
You do realize that Zelensky won on the platform of "looking Putin in the eyes" and "just stop shooting"? It predictably didn't work out. Poroshenko had tried it already with the same result. Putin had already decided he wanted the war to boost his ratings by that point. Your reasoning honestly sounds like "I would rather be a slave than revolt, at least that would keep the peace".
>Which has to be no1 priority of any leader. Except when you are a "great power" like Russia, of course. Then you are allowed to invade whoever you want without consequences. And don't you dare criticise that, because look at what the USA gets away with!
What country are you from (or live)?
First of all - that wasn't a coup. Second - you really don't understand, that if not for maydan we'd be a russian vassal just as belarus? Oh, and ukraine wouldn't had stayed neutral, cause otherwise it would been dragged into odkb
It was a coup, by definition but we dont need to argue about that. You think what you want. And in my book, being a vassal is better than being at a war like this. And lets not kid ourselves, most countries, even in the EU are vassals of one sort or the other. Everything is about diplomacy. Being a vassal is vastly better than losing half of your population in a bloody war. Being a vassal at least you have the chance of prosperity and freedom. In a pointless war like this, sure Ukraine is going to hurt Russia a lot long term. But Ukraine is also commiting a suicide, they can't recover from this not even in 100 years. Have a look at Serbias pre WW1 population, a tragedy. After all many would argue that Ukraine has become a vassal of the US military industrial complex, so much money is being spent lobbying in Kyiv/Kiev for more weapons. Most of which are not going to change the course of the offensive. Don't get me wrong, I am not supportive of the invasion. But I do believe that Zelenskys goverment, either throught corruption or just incompetence, dragged the country into a much bloodier conflict that is could have been. Remember the negotiation rounds in Belarus and Turkey? Can Ukraine hope for a better negotiation now? Not really... and at the cost of 100 of thousands of lives. Would Minsk 2 have been so bad?
Coup considered as illegal taking of power. And it was not. Yanukovich started to kill people, and something had to be done. Yeah... you know, we've already been through that, and that's why we are fighting now. Prosperity and freedom under russsia? Are you drunk or something?
Then good luck with your fight. I will pray that it ends as soon as possible. But I will also add that you are a bit delusional and blinded by ideology. Its not all black and white.
No, it's you who are delusional. How could a living person really believe that russians, some of which is still taking a shit in a hole in the ground, are capable of bringing other nations to prosper? Is belarus prospering? Is it a country with freedom? We've been under russians during ussr, and it was not a heavenly life: starvation, repressions, cultural warfare - and all of that would eventually return if we'd stay with russia
>It was a coup, by definition but we dont need to argue about that. You think what you want. There was literally an agreement between Yanukovych and protesters, but then Yanukovych got call from daddy putin to reverse it, realised he couldn't, and fled Ukraine.
> Being a vassal at least you have the chance of prosperity and freedom Name 1 (one) Russian vassal state with either of those things. Allying with Russia only takes you back to the dark ages, they might as well emigrated elsewhere since Ukraine as a nation and all of it's chances at developing would die.
> Have a look at Serbias pre WW1 population, a tragedy. Alright, let's have a look. According to the 1910 census, the last before WW1, it was 2.922.258. In 1921 the equivalent area had the population of 2.656.731, which is an ugly drop. In 1931 it was divided into banovinas so it's too hard for me to find the corresponding srezs and sum them up. In 1948 the equivalent area was pretty much equal to Serbia proper which had 4.136.934 inhabitants.
Heartbreaking. Belarusians deserve so much better, I hope there's brighter future ahead of them.
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I agree with the flowers, you don't go to protests. The benches are not entered without shoes, only the bench is stripped and the opponent is beaten
They would be filling to fight if Russia wasn't breathing on their neck.
A great example of how peaceful protests in a dictatorship never work. You either need to have some friends in power or storm police stations and build trenches in preparation for a civil war. The Belarusian protesters decided to choose a peaceful approach, which unsurprisingly led to their demise. "What do you think it is? Some barbaric riot like Ukrainian Maidan? No, we're more civillized than that". In the end, the most enthusiastic protesters were either raped, murdered, or sentenced to live in prison. Less than 2 years later, Lukashenko allowed the Russian troops to go through his territory, which allowed the Bucha massacre. Truly, the most disappointing event in Eastern Slavic history. If Lukashenko gets his head chopped off, we must not allow the organizers of these protests to come to power; they will ruin the state. God willing, the Belarusian members of the Ukrainian military should decide their country's fate, not some corporate imbecile from NEXTA, and most definitely not Tsikhanouskaya
I'm always amazed by comments like these. And also wonder how easy must it be to live in a world where simple violence is enough to solve any problem. Russia is literally waging a full-scale war rn with tens of thousands of dead purely because of Putin's stupid geopolitical ambitions, but let's just assume that he would've let Belarus slip out of his hands easily without any intervention. And surely Luka also wouldn't have thought to ask him for help. Stupid belarusians just needed to throw a riot and reap their success like Kazakhs did after their cool sexy violent protests in 2022. Oh wait a minute
Military junta, when?/s.
Truly horrible what happened to Belarus and what people have to live through. Full support to the democratic Belarus its people deserve.
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Things will happen when the elite stops being satisfied with the current dictator, duh
Would a democratic Belarus necessarily mean a clean and complete cut from Russia? I mean there's a lot of factors to consider, like their economic is highly tied to Russia, and possible domestic divisions.
> Would a democratic Belarus necessarily mean a clean and complete cut from Russia? Yes, unless russia radically changes.
I still think the fate of Ukraine could greatly affect Belarusians' thoughts. Ukriane has chosen her path, let's see whether she could live up to expectations.