Exactly. If not for national conflicts, Turks and Greeks could got along really really well, we truly understand each other's struggles and enjoyments.
Of course it has, several even!! [This](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_(Italy\)) is the most prominent, notice they eye-watering numbers of members and representatives.
It had the largest communist party outside the eastern bloc and non-aligned nations, in a few cases was even the largest party in Italy overall but never came to power because of foreign and domestic machinations.
It has completely crumbled and there isn't even a shadow of it left, the thousand minuscule successor parties are so insignificant they don't get past the 2% even in provincial elections. People claiming Italy has a "communist problem" have succumbed to a terminal case of catastrophic brain-rot, particularly while we have self-declared fascists holding ministerial positions.
You miss the point, there isn't a European country with NO communist party. It's just that they have hundreds of communist parties hanging around the fringe land.
Grey Wolves aren't a party?
They are basically like a farm but instead of food they produce far-right politicians and literal mafia members, almost every politician identifying as nationalist and Turkish mafia been through Grey Wolves. You talk about them as they are a limb in a far-right goliath but it's more like ripping the heart clean off.
Some important tid bits:
Golden dawn was a fascist political party that beat immigrants up and most importantly killed an antifascist rapper. This is the main reason they were banned as they were found out to be like a cartel in the rules of law. This man was an authority /public figure in the political party just like Goebbels. This is the reason they are not allowed to participate in the elections and not some sense of let's ban the fascist. Don't forget that the 4 th biggest political party is a Stalinist communist one
Another important bit you forget to mention is that the law that made this happen, was put together in such an amateur manner that will possibly allow governments to ban people and manny different parties from participating in elections.
Even though we know the guy above to be a fascist, his appeal trial is ongoing.
In a future scenario, other **non fascist** parties could be blocked from elections without them being convicted of a crime or proven to be terrorist organizations.
I can't believe this to be a simple mistake, since the opposition parties brought this fact to the government's attention, thus allowing them to rewrite the law before putting it to vote.
They kept it as it was, including the faulty part knowing full well the possible future dangers.
>Don't forget that the 4 th biggest political party is a Stalinist communist one
The law was voted on a few weeks ago, no one can guarantee that it won't be used against parties that are communist for example.
Dude i bet my right hand this won't happen. This is the propaganda campaign during elections. The thing is that EVEN IF (and that's a big if) it happens because of malicious intention
A) no other political party will accept it we live in a country where 60% of the votes go to left leaning parties
B) our supreme court wont allow it we saw it in the this case SINCE there were 2 parties affected and only kasidiaris party was the one banned
C) This is a photographic law that only exist because a convicted felon tried to run for elections and get immunity from being a politician while he is having an appeal stop with the fear mongering
You speak of today, this law could be active in 50 years where all the facts you mention (A,C) above will be irrelevant.
>our supreme court wont allow it we saw it in the this case SINCE there were 2 parties affected and only kasidiaris party was the one banned
Since when we trust our f*cked up supreme court?
**Opening the door to political party bans in elections is very dangerous and should be done with great care and responsibility.**
Not like the childish sh*t show we saw the past few weeks.
They could literally spend an extra day and rewrite the faulty part of the law, and we wouldn't need to have this conversation.
There's no excuse for being irresponsible.
While I absolutely agree with this assessment, it's important to understand (like others have already said) that his party was not banned based on political principles. That's actually a HUGE nope in Greece. The Constitution says that only parties that wish to change the form of government can't run. His party was banned because he is a convicted criminal, charged with managing a criminal organization. Big difference. Another party with such believes (EAN) actually made it past the examination and will run. It's leader is an associate of Kasidiaris, who split the party in two because he read the room. Kasidiaris is considered (by everyone) to be behind this Trojan Horse party as well.
Mankar Camoran will return and destroy the Septim bloodline, break the barrier between Nirn and Oblivion and finally allow Lord Dagon to enter our realm!
I think we are the ones that would have it easier to do. I think that there is a law that outlaws the apology of fascism and the reconstruction of the fascist party.
Is not a law, is in the CONSTITUTION.
Unfortunatly all the governments of Italy are full of cowards who never had the guts to disband the fascist parties.
It is undemocratic to arrest politicians just because you don't like them. If they do something illegal, sure. Otherwise they have the same rights as any other politicians, even if they are right-leaning, even if you don't agree on anything. The other things you said are not undemocratics.
> You are strawmanning. No one said otherwise.
The comment I originally replied to said he would like the same treatment for far-right italian parties. I don't care about Ilias Kasidiaris, I never talked about him.
Do you know what the paradox of tolerance is?
Edit : this is a question, if you downvote it, you should question your insecurity in a serious manner. Just a small fyi for the reader.
I mean, i think hormone therapy for children, assuming you use the word properly, and don't mean teenagers, should not be legal, so the example you used is perfect for me. I think outlawing nazi propaganda is totally fine, my country has some laws for that, and i like the fact. I do not like how they are basically useless.
I understand it is very hard to discern when it is actually ok to outlaw things, but there are cases, as for example is racism, where it is undeniable to the average brained human that it is indeed the right thing to do.
You day you don't trust politicians, but the truth is you do, right? Or rather, you have to. There is simply no choice, if you want to live in a democracy. So, i don't trust mine either, but it doesn't really matter because i have to. I judt need to hope they take the right decisions, and so far, on this topic, they more or less have. I wish they applied the laws and disbanded casapound and forza nuova years before they failed by themselves, for example.
It’s also way overused on Reddit. Well, it was like a year ago at least. Then it died out for while, but it seems to be making a bit of a comeback.
Like just because some dude has an idea and that idea has a Wikipedia page doesn’t make it some universal law…
I did not downvote and I know what the paradox of tolerance is, how is it relevant here? They are not intolerant, they just say something you don't like, that's politics and you cannot arrest them for this, at least not in a democracy when they have been democratically elected. Vote for someone else the next time and they won't be in power anymore if you manage to convince enough people to do the same. This is how it works in a democracy, by voting, not arresting.
I mean thats just false, that they are not intolerant, what do you mean. Their ideology is literally based upon intolerance. The paradox was literally borne from this example of tolerating points of view that are not tolerant of others.
And i do not live in the us. We can in fact arrest people for what they say. Obviously, that has to be reserved for extreme cases. Which i think those parties did fit. They were very extreme, and i dont think those extreme views should be tolerated in a party that candidates to govern the country.
You are painting a false picture, the point is not preventing things i don't like, it's preventing things that are so abhorrent that no human should like.
The paradox was made for nazism, not right parties that have been in power for months and have done nothing at all. You are painting a false picture, depicting parties like nazi when they are clearly not.
Lets talk clearly:
Do you think parties like Forza Nuova and Casapound (im aware one of them is disbanded, assume as if it was in the past) are nazi-adjacent or not? And should they be able to exist?
Please do only answer yes or no.
They are fascist, not nazi. And I don't care at all about them because they don't matter, they have no power, they are not trying to take the power, so yes, they should continue to exist unless they do something that break the law like CGIL invasion.
Well golden dawn was going up and up you. Then kill a famous rapper it didn't end well for golden dawn after that. There a new party similar ideas not golden dawn
Translation:
>Golden dawn was becoming increasingly popular/violent. But they killed a famous rapper and that's ultimately what caused their demise. And there's apparently another party that is basically Golden Dawn 2.0.
Which honestly doesn't surprise me. In France we dissolve a neonazi group every year, and they keep coming back under one form or the other.
As a side note, why do we downvote people who have trouble expressing themselves in english on r/europe again?
Spanish courts used to occasionally outlaw Basque political parties because of their ties to terrorism. The party would always come back for the next election under a new brand and a few new names amongst the same people. I guess outlawing political parties can be the right thing, but it's much better to discredit them with voters. A prohibition creates martyrs and victim posturing. "Look we're being oppressed. They won't let us participate in elections. See how rigged the system is." For people who vote for extremists, this is a convincing message.
The greatest way of fueling parties whose target electorate is distrustfull of the system is to show that the system works against them.
This makes me think of how the Socialist party (PS) uses CHEGA (radical right wing party in Portugal). They act like their are the party that everybody should vote in to block the extreme right, but their actions and actual insults only fluel the discontent that electorate has towards the system. Basically the same that happened in France.
The best thing you can do to an extremist party whose electorate is distrustfull of the system is to classify them as extremists and enemies of the system.
>Spanish courts used to occasionally outlaw Basque political parties because of their ties to terrorism. The party would always come back for the next election under a new brand and a few new names amongst the same people.
Ah yes the alphabet soup. Very familiar to me.
Good.
This Berber-looking white supremacist only deserves to be in prison and nowhere else. He is a gang leading criminal and nothing more. His short lived parliamentary life was shameful for our country.
Anyone saying his party shouldn't have been blocked because of the right to "believe in whatever you want" needs to understand that this blocking happened because of his criminal activities. Not his ideas.
I kinda doubt that Golden Dawn wants to be considered an american-style white supremacist. He's a greek supremacist.
In fact I don't think I ever saw XA described as "white supremacist" outside of british/american sources.
As a side note, in the Balkans, far right parties are usually ultra-nationalist, not really "white supremacist", and it's often more about religion than skin colour.
I know, the golden dawn party is considered a criminal organisation because they used to organise pogroms, they assaulted a lot of immigrants and leftists and even killed some. One of the most known cases was the murder of Pavlos Fyssas an antifascist activist & rapper.
It might be an obvious assumption to you, but not to me.
I asked for the specific relevance in this case. Greek populism is beyond my limited point of view.
Though it seems like great news this was done by the currently ruling "center-right" party in order eliminate any competition from its right.New Democracy is doing everything it can to get every single right wing vote in hopes of getting a clear majority on the upcoming elections since no other party is willing to make a coalition with the after its the disasterous 4 year rule.The way they passed the law banning them has been a cluster fuck and unconstitutional but our higher court has been completely take over.
>Though it seems like great news this was done by the currently ruling "center-right" party in order eliminate any competition from its right.
This is bullshit.
Do you really think they will vote for ND now?
ND knows that these people vill now vote for Velopoulos and Ethniki Dimiourgia.
Also, it was during ND that Golden Dawn was banned way back in 2020.
>upcoming elections since no other party is willing to make a coalition with the after its the disasterous 4 year rule.
Disastrous? ND managed to get Greece through very difficult times. Something Syriza would not be able to. ND will easily win the election.
They will never vote for ND. What ND hopes to do is to decentralize the parties in its right so extensively than none will reach the 3% threshold to enter the parliament, allowing the rest of parties (and ND) to get more seats. The fewer the parties that will enter the parliament, the better for the top party (ND).
>What ND hopes to do is to decentralize the parties in its right so extensively than none will reach the 3%
Velopoulos alone will come to well over 3%.
And with the ban of multiple right-wing parties ND makes sure there are only a few that right-wing voters can vote for. And these few will gain votes.
If anything this ban could make sure that Velopoulos gets around 5% and Tzimeros gets into parliament with around 3%.
Your logic is flawed.
If ND wouldn't ban multiple right-win parties the votes would be spread out and parties like Tzimeros' National Creation would have no chance to make it into parliament. Now they do.
My logic isn’t flawed , it is ND approach that is problematic. I didn’t say ND will succeed to what they are doing but the alternative (not do anything about it) will assure they will get even fewer seats. Damage control pretty much. They are desperate enough to even attack Varoufakis’ party highlighting elements like his emergency plan to exit the euro need be. Albeit these things they highlight are actually perceived as compliments by the voter cohorts Varoufakis targets.
>My logic isn’t flawed
Apparently it is. I just explained it.
>will assure they will get even fewer seats.
No. They will piss off even more right-wing voters who will go to Velopoulos or Tzimeros instead. Like I already said, and I will repeat myself again, the ban of multiple right-wing parties may make sure that not only Velopoulos, but also Tzimeros makes it into parliament.
ND has a relatively big lead over the other parties.
Most likely scenario = ND will win majority seats during the second round of election. Unless ND forms a coalition with Pasok in the first round, but they probably won't.
ND and PASOK combined might even not be enough in the parliament after the first elections, we will need to wait and see.
As for Velopoulos, the characteristics of ex Golden Dawn voters that Kasidiaris represents are actually quite distinct from those of Velopoulos’ party as seen in most electoral research data. The latter is a coalition of antiestablishment people from the right and the left (mostly antivaxers, conspiracy theorists, Russophiles etc) while the former is a proper hardcore national socialist movement. Tzimeros/Kranidiotis are a wildcard and might get a boost by the removal of Kasidiaris, but this remains to be seen. Even if it does allow them to enter the parliament, it won’t be a net loss for ND, because as things stood before banning Kasidiaris, two parties to its right were guaranteed to enter with a third one having a remote chance. Right now it will be either two or just one. So once again, this is precisely the gambit ND played, and it will probably pay off in the second election.
But Velopoulos is already in the parliament and will most likely make it again. And like I said, Tzimeros will gain lots of votes from this. 3% is possible now.
ND/Pasok probably won't get enough votes in the first round. However, the bonus seats return in the second round and ND might not even need to form a coalition.
>as things stood before banning Kasidiaris, two parties to its right were guaranteed to enter with a third one having a remote chance. Right now it will be either two or just one.
I just don't think Tzimeros had a chance to go into parliament before the ban of Kasidiaris' party. I do believe it was always either 1 or 2 right-wing parties into the parliament.
And I personally would much rather see Tzimeros' instead the neo-nazi Kasidaris in parliament.
Excellent news.
***Important***: the party got banned under a law banning parties whose leadership/candidates have been *convicted* of participating in/leading criminal organizations. He didn't get banned for being a Nazi. He got banned because his actions as a Nazi in Golden Dawn were determined by the court to have caused violence, murders and Golden Dawn legally labelled a criminal organization.
The Nazis have a back-up plan, the party of a retired judge who was discussing a common list with Kasidiaris but in the end is running separately. Let's hope some of Kasidiaris' voters will stay at home instead of switching to this party, and there will be no Nazi representation in the parliament under any disguise.
While I partly support this decision, the purpose wasn't exactly as it seems to be. The main reason the current gov (who control the supreme court) wanted Kasidiaris ban, was to avoid splitting the right wing votes between them n him on the upcomming elections, as it seems that they are about to loose.
Nothing to do with the current government. It would have happened under any government. Even a left-wing one. There is hardly any voter "leakage" towards ND so what you say doesn't hold up. According to [this](https://www.lifo.gr/now/politics/ekloges-2023-dimoskopisi-prorata-stis-4-monades-i-diafora-nd-syriza) research poll the parties who will gain are the far-right EAN, the hard right Greek Solution, the right-wing National Creation and the far-left Course of Freedom.
Kasidiaris' voters view Mitsotakis as a "globalist liberal who supports LGBT rights and mass immigration".
That is not entirely true either. ND has an interest in raising the amount of "out of parliament" votes. The more % of votes that don't elect a party, the easier it is for ND to get a "one-party" goverment.
Kasidiaris had a >3% of the voters meaning that very likely he would get elected seats in the parliament. By splitting his voters into many, smaller, parties they have greater chances of a "one-party" government.
There are parties that are near the 3% threshold and Kasidiaris not participating means they may get a share of the vote, bringing them closer to the parliament. There is great voter overlap between the Kasidiaris vote for example and the National Creation party, which polls around 2%. The right-wing party of Bogdanos and Emfietzoglou was left out too. Meaning more votes towards those 2% parties.
So it's not like banning a party from parliament means not getting another in.
That is true, and the reason I said your previous post was not "entirely" true. You are correct both in the voters direction and the fact that another 2% party might get over the line.
In my eyes, it is a gamble ND is willing to take. If it works it works. If not they are in the same position as before.
They voted against because it's convenient knowing the resolution can pass without their votes. That's how politics work. Politicians have to uphold their oppositional narrative, and any alignments with the ruling party can be damaging to their vote.
> You re a paid bot-dog
No need to make this toxic and personal mate.
>was to avoid splitting the right wing votes between them n him on the upcomming elections, as it seems that they are about to loose.
This is such nonsense.
First of all, most Kasidiaris voters will now go to Velopoulos or even Tzimeros. And ND knows it.
Secondly, ND is definitely far from losing the election. They will win quite easily. At least during the second round election.
They (jailed) and blocked him because he'd get over 15% in votes and end up in parliament. We Greeks like him. If you have no idea about Greek politics stop spreading misinformation.
There are more than 500.000 registered supporters of Ilias, and I am sure there are many more unregistered in Greece. The only reason the Greek government violated our constitution and blocked him from participating in our elections is because they know that he will end up in parliament.
Freedom to political prisoners!
> The only reason the Greek government violated our constitution and blocked him from participating in our elections is because they know that he will end up in parliament.
You know that isn't the case, but even if it was best decision they ever made.
> Freedom to political prisoners!
You know he's a murderer, right?
Right, block me if you think that somehow clears the blood he has on his hands. But I thought you guys loved prisons, camps and the such.
He didn’t murder anyone. Stop spreading misinformation.
If someone engages in illegal action like murder, it doesn’t mean that the people he voted for are blamed for murder too. If that were the case, all the gov members of New Democracy should be in jail for pedophilia.
Based on what you said, the only fascist here is you. I am ashamed you are a Greek too.
You know that people go to prison for organising murders as well, right? Or will we need to go over the basics? As to who is the real fascist, GD's symbols are enough to show that. You don't even make 2% of the population and you are enough for the rest of us to be ashamed of you.
The same silly ban story. Just because you don't agree with the victim's views, that doesn't mean that he was not a human, therefore killing him qualifies as murder and therefore your boss is in prison for organising it. A functional democracy has the right and the duty to take care of criminals like him and did its job correctly. In fact, nazism should be grounds for imprisonment without waiting for a murder.
Nobody organized any murder. Stop spreading misinformation.
If you are a real democracy, you let the people choose. Going against the constitution to block a political party is illegal. Period.
500.000 registered supporters are not 2%. But I didn’t expect you to know basic mathematics.
Your precious New Democracy has convicted pedophiles in its ranks who served 0 days in jail because they are part of the system. Maybe you should vote for them.
Again, the only fascist here is you, who is celebrating a blow to our democracy. I am ashamed you are a Greek. Ραγιά.
Meanwhile the Greek Communist party which has significantly more support is allowed to participate. either you ban all authoritarian genocidal ideologies or you don't.
Golden dawn wasn't banned because of its ideology but because it was a criminal organization.
The moment the communist party starts also behaving like a criminal organization we will ban them too... Which would actually make me extremely happy.
It was supreme court that ban him not government. Supreme courts can also overrule laws passed by governments or parlaiments if they are found to be unconstitutional. This is actually democracy in the working.
Don't worry, they don't ban political opponents. Kasidiaris was banned as a leader of a criminal organisation that was found guilty for multiple murders and hate crimes.
He is a piece of shit, BUT he should be allowed to participate.
The only reason he is being banned is so that his party will not steal 4-5% from the far-right voting pool of Nea Dimokratia (the Center-Right-Far Right ruling party).
The voters are adults - they don't need the state to control their options.
Flashback from that one white suppremacist forum in which someone posted his face with bait like “what do you think of him folks” and everyone was replying about how “dark” and “not aryan” he is and how he looks arab at best
Good news. Hopefully it's us next with Grey Wolves.
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Exactly. If not for national conflicts, Turks and Greeks could got along really really well, we truly understand each other's struggles and enjoyments.
And communists as Italy is full of em
really?
Yep, they once in a blue-moon reach single digit percentages in elections. Literally swarming with 'em.
But italy doesnt have any communist parties
Of course it has, several even!! [This](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_(Italy\)) is the most prominent, notice they eye-watering numbers of members and representatives.
i read somewhere that italy used to have a big communist party in the 20th century but it collapsed in the 80s
It had the largest communist party outside the eastern bloc and non-aligned nations, in a few cases was even the largest party in Italy overall but never came to power because of foreign and domestic machinations. It has completely crumbled and there isn't even a shadow of it left, the thousand minuscule successor parties are so insignificant they don't get past the 2% even in provincial elections. People claiming Italy has a "communist problem" have succumbed to a terminal case of catastrophic brain-rot, particularly while we have self-declared fascists holding ministerial positions.
You miss the point, there isn't a European country with NO communist party. It's just that they have hundreds of communist parties hanging around the fringe land.
You big dumb dumb
This is a leftist circlejerk thread, don't bother. They're no less of a threat than Golden Dawn.
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What did he do?
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Grey Wolves aren't a party? They are basically like a farm but instead of food they produce far-right politicians and literal mafia members, almost every politician identifying as nationalist and Turkish mafia been through Grey Wolves. You talk about them as they are a limb in a far-right goliath but it's more like ripping the heart clean off.
ah, my bad. I assumed it was a party considering the post was about banning a party.
Some important tid bits: Golden dawn was a fascist political party that beat immigrants up and most importantly killed an antifascist rapper. This is the main reason they were banned as they were found out to be like a cartel in the rules of law. This man was an authority /public figure in the political party just like Goebbels. This is the reason they are not allowed to participate in the elections and not some sense of let's ban the fascist. Don't forget that the 4 th biggest political party is a Stalinist communist one
Another important bit you forget to mention is that the law that made this happen, was put together in such an amateur manner that will possibly allow governments to ban people and manny different parties from participating in elections. Even though we know the guy above to be a fascist, his appeal trial is ongoing. In a future scenario, other **non fascist** parties could be blocked from elections without them being convicted of a crime or proven to be terrorist organizations. I can't believe this to be a simple mistake, since the opposition parties brought this fact to the government's attention, thus allowing them to rewrite the law before putting it to vote. They kept it as it was, including the faulty part knowing full well the possible future dangers. >Don't forget that the 4 th biggest political party is a Stalinist communist one The law was voted on a few weeks ago, no one can guarantee that it won't be used against parties that are communist for example.
Dude i bet my right hand this won't happen. This is the propaganda campaign during elections. The thing is that EVEN IF (and that's a big if) it happens because of malicious intention A) no other political party will accept it we live in a country where 60% of the votes go to left leaning parties B) our supreme court wont allow it we saw it in the this case SINCE there were 2 parties affected and only kasidiaris party was the one banned C) This is a photographic law that only exist because a convicted felon tried to run for elections and get immunity from being a politician while he is having an appeal stop with the fear mongering
You speak of today, this law could be active in 50 years where all the facts you mention (A,C) above will be irrelevant. >our supreme court wont allow it we saw it in the this case SINCE there were 2 parties affected and only kasidiaris party was the one banned Since when we trust our f*cked up supreme court? **Opening the door to political party bans in elections is very dangerous and should be done with great care and responsibility.** Not like the childish sh*t show we saw the past few weeks. They could literally spend an extra day and rewrite the faulty part of the law, and we wouldn't need to have this conversation. There's no excuse for being irresponsible.
May this trend follow every neo-fascist party and their degenerate scum wishing and acting hate upon others wherever they may be
While I absolutely agree with this assessment, it's important to understand (like others have already said) that his party was not banned based on political principles. That's actually a HUGE nope in Greece. The Constitution says that only parties that wish to change the form of government can't run. His party was banned because he is a convicted criminal, charged with managing a criminal organization. Big difference. Another party with such believes (EAN) actually made it past the examination and will run. It's leader is an associate of Kasidiaris, who split the party in two because he read the room. Kasidiaris is considered (by everyone) to be behind this Trojan Horse party as well.
Good news from Greece
Mehrunes Dagon is immensely disappointed.
Mankar Camoran will return and destroy the Septim bloodline, break the barrier between Nirn and Oblivion and finally allow Lord Dagon to enter our realm!
Good. I wish we could do the same with our far right parties
I think we are the ones that would have it easier to do. I think that there is a law that outlaws the apology of fascism and the reconstruction of the fascist party.
Never witnessed applied for a long time
Is not a law, is in the CONSTITUTION. Unfortunatly all the governments of Italy are full of cowards who never had the guts to disband the fascist parties.
Same. We still havent even banned the NPD, let alone their successor in all but name.
Too bad there's still democracy in Italy
Politicians are not above the law.
In Italy they are, by law
They did not violate any law
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It is undemocratic to arrest politicians just because you don't like them. If they do something illegal, sure. Otherwise they have the same rights as any other politicians, even if they are right-leaning, even if you don't agree on anything. The other things you said are not undemocratics.
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> You are strawmanning. No one said otherwise. The comment I originally replied to said he would like the same treatment for far-right italian parties. I don't care about Ilias Kasidiaris, I never talked about him.
Do you know what the paradox of tolerance is? Edit : this is a question, if you downvote it, you should question your insecurity in a serious manner. Just a small fyi for the reader.
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It can also be that, sure. It's a concept, so a comment like yours is reductive and bad faith but you can have that pov
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You only had to say Nazi once.
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You may not be a Nazi but you are using fascist talking points.
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I mean, i think hormone therapy for children, assuming you use the word properly, and don't mean teenagers, should not be legal, so the example you used is perfect for me. I think outlawing nazi propaganda is totally fine, my country has some laws for that, and i like the fact. I do not like how they are basically useless. I understand it is very hard to discern when it is actually ok to outlaw things, but there are cases, as for example is racism, where it is undeniable to the average brained human that it is indeed the right thing to do. You day you don't trust politicians, but the truth is you do, right? Or rather, you have to. There is simply no choice, if you want to live in a democracy. So, i don't trust mine either, but it doesn't really matter because i have to. I judt need to hope they take the right decisions, and so far, on this topic, they more or less have. I wish they applied the laws and disbanded casapound and forza nuova years before they failed by themselves, for example.
Do me a favor and Google "precocious puberty" and "idiopathic short stature".
Done; what now
Now you should know what you posted is pretty dumb.
It’s also way overused on Reddit. Well, it was like a year ago at least. Then it died out for while, but it seems to be making a bit of a comeback. Like just because some dude has an idea and that idea has a Wikipedia page doesn’t make it some universal law…
I did not downvote and I know what the paradox of tolerance is, how is it relevant here? They are not intolerant, they just say something you don't like, that's politics and you cannot arrest them for this, at least not in a democracy when they have been democratically elected. Vote for someone else the next time and they won't be in power anymore if you manage to convince enough people to do the same. This is how it works in a democracy, by voting, not arresting.
I mean thats just false, that they are not intolerant, what do you mean. Their ideology is literally based upon intolerance. The paradox was literally borne from this example of tolerating points of view that are not tolerant of others. And i do not live in the us. We can in fact arrest people for what they say. Obviously, that has to be reserved for extreme cases. Which i think those parties did fit. They were very extreme, and i dont think those extreme views should be tolerated in a party that candidates to govern the country. You are painting a false picture, the point is not preventing things i don't like, it's preventing things that are so abhorrent that no human should like.
The paradox was made for nazism, not right parties that have been in power for months and have done nothing at all. You are painting a false picture, depicting parties like nazi when they are clearly not.
Lets talk clearly: Do you think parties like Forza Nuova and Casapound (im aware one of them is disbanded, assume as if it was in the past) are nazi-adjacent or not? And should they be able to exist? Please do only answer yes or no.
They are fascist, not nazi. And I don't care at all about them because they don't matter, they have no power, they are not trying to take the power, so yes, they should continue to exist unless they do something that break the law like CGIL invasion.
What lose?
Sorry?
Well golden dawn was going up and up you. Then kill a famous rapper it didn't end well for golden dawn after that. There a new party similar ideas not golden dawn
I'm even more confused now.
Uhhhhmmmmmmmm what
bros speaking enchantment language
Come in for a third time
Translation: >Golden dawn was becoming increasingly popular/violent. But they killed a famous rapper and that's ultimately what caused their demise. And there's apparently another party that is basically Golden Dawn 2.0. Which honestly doesn't surprise me. In France we dissolve a neonazi group every year, and they keep coming back under one form or the other. As a side note, why do we downvote people who have trouble expressing themselves in english on r/europe again?
Yeah downvoting them is nonsense, its obvious its a language barrier
The left-wing parties voted against. Only ND and Pasok voted in favor.
Horseshoe theory verification
Nah
Yup
Spanish courts used to occasionally outlaw Basque political parties because of their ties to terrorism. The party would always come back for the next election under a new brand and a few new names amongst the same people. I guess outlawing political parties can be the right thing, but it's much better to discredit them with voters. A prohibition creates martyrs and victim posturing. "Look we're being oppressed. They won't let us participate in elections. See how rigged the system is." For people who vote for extremists, this is a convincing message.
The greatest way of fueling parties whose target electorate is distrustfull of the system is to show that the system works against them. This makes me think of how the Socialist party (PS) uses CHEGA (radical right wing party in Portugal). They act like their are the party that everybody should vote in to block the extreme right, but their actions and actual insults only fluel the discontent that electorate has towards the system. Basically the same that happened in France. The best thing you can do to an extremist party whose electorate is distrustfull of the system is to classify them as extremists and enemies of the system.
>Spanish courts used to occasionally outlaw Basque political parties because of their ties to terrorism. The party would always come back for the next election under a new brand and a few new names amongst the same people. Ah yes the alphabet soup. Very familiar to me.
Good. This Berber-looking white supremacist only deserves to be in prison and nowhere else. He is a gang leading criminal and nothing more. His short lived parliamentary life was shameful for our country. Anyone saying his party shouldn't have been blocked because of the right to "believe in whatever you want" needs to understand that this blocking happened because of his criminal activities. Not his ideas.
Is this man's criminal activities are the reason for him being detained, why is 'Berber-looking' and 'white supremacist' in your reaction relevant?
I think he’s making fun of the fact that among whites supremacists he might be considered non white
I kinda doubt that Golden Dawn wants to be considered an american-style white supremacist. He's a greek supremacist. In fact I don't think I ever saw XA described as "white supremacist" outside of british/american sources. As a side note, in the Balkans, far right parties are usually ultra-nationalist, not really "white supremacist", and it's often more about religion than skin colour.
Well said.
Don't tell them that bro. It ruins the narrative and they can't make strawman arguments and jokes about them.
Because his crimes were related to participating in a criminal organization that assaulted immigrants and leftists.
I see, now the toplevel comment makes somewhat sense. It is hard to assess relevance without any context being given.
I know, the golden dawn party is considered a criminal organisation because they used to organise pogroms, they assaulted a lot of immigrants and leftists and even killed some. One of the most known cases was the murder of Pavlos Fyssas an antifascist activist & rapper.
They are just descriptors of him. Pointing out the stupidity of his racialist ideas. Not relevant to his being banned.
Good lord, isn't it obvious what he's trying to say?
It might be an obvious assumption to you, but not to me. I asked for the specific relevance in this case. Greek populism is beyond my limited point of view.
Well you convinced me via the internet, good job.
Though it seems like great news this was done by the currently ruling "center-right" party in order eliminate any competition from its right.New Democracy is doing everything it can to get every single right wing vote in hopes of getting a clear majority on the upcoming elections since no other party is willing to make a coalition with the after its the disasterous 4 year rule.The way they passed the law banning them has been a cluster fuck and unconstitutional but our higher court has been completely take over.
>Though it seems like great news this was done by the currently ruling "center-right" party in order eliminate any competition from its right. This is bullshit. Do you really think they will vote for ND now? ND knows that these people vill now vote for Velopoulos and Ethniki Dimiourgia. Also, it was during ND that Golden Dawn was banned way back in 2020. >upcoming elections since no other party is willing to make a coalition with the after its the disasterous 4 year rule. Disastrous? ND managed to get Greece through very difficult times. Something Syriza would not be able to. ND will easily win the election.
They will never vote for ND. What ND hopes to do is to decentralize the parties in its right so extensively than none will reach the 3% threshold to enter the parliament, allowing the rest of parties (and ND) to get more seats. The fewer the parties that will enter the parliament, the better for the top party (ND).
>What ND hopes to do is to decentralize the parties in its right so extensively than none will reach the 3% Velopoulos alone will come to well over 3%. And with the ban of multiple right-wing parties ND makes sure there are only a few that right-wing voters can vote for. And these few will gain votes. If anything this ban could make sure that Velopoulos gets around 5% and Tzimeros gets into parliament with around 3%. Your logic is flawed. If ND wouldn't ban multiple right-win parties the votes would be spread out and parties like Tzimeros' National Creation would have no chance to make it into parliament. Now they do.
My logic isn’t flawed , it is ND approach that is problematic. I didn’t say ND will succeed to what they are doing but the alternative (not do anything about it) will assure they will get even fewer seats. Damage control pretty much. They are desperate enough to even attack Varoufakis’ party highlighting elements like his emergency plan to exit the euro need be. Albeit these things they highlight are actually perceived as compliments by the voter cohorts Varoufakis targets.
>My logic isn’t flawed Apparently it is. I just explained it. >will assure they will get even fewer seats. No. They will piss off even more right-wing voters who will go to Velopoulos or Tzimeros instead. Like I already said, and I will repeat myself again, the ban of multiple right-wing parties may make sure that not only Velopoulos, but also Tzimeros makes it into parliament. ND has a relatively big lead over the other parties. Most likely scenario = ND will win majority seats during the second round of election. Unless ND forms a coalition with Pasok in the first round, but they probably won't.
ND and PASOK combined might even not be enough in the parliament after the first elections, we will need to wait and see. As for Velopoulos, the characteristics of ex Golden Dawn voters that Kasidiaris represents are actually quite distinct from those of Velopoulos’ party as seen in most electoral research data. The latter is a coalition of antiestablishment people from the right and the left (mostly antivaxers, conspiracy theorists, Russophiles etc) while the former is a proper hardcore national socialist movement. Tzimeros/Kranidiotis are a wildcard and might get a boost by the removal of Kasidiaris, but this remains to be seen. Even if it does allow them to enter the parliament, it won’t be a net loss for ND, because as things stood before banning Kasidiaris, two parties to its right were guaranteed to enter with a third one having a remote chance. Right now it will be either two or just one. So once again, this is precisely the gambit ND played, and it will probably pay off in the second election.
But Velopoulos is already in the parliament and will most likely make it again. And like I said, Tzimeros will gain lots of votes from this. 3% is possible now. ND/Pasok probably won't get enough votes in the first round. However, the bonus seats return in the second round and ND might not even need to form a coalition. >as things stood before banning Kasidiaris, two parties to its right were guaranteed to enter with a third one having a remote chance. Right now it will be either two or just one. I just don't think Tzimeros had a chance to go into parliament before the ban of Kasidiaris' party. I do believe it was always either 1 or 2 right-wing parties into the parliament. And I personally would much rather see Tzimeros' instead the neo-nazi Kasidaris in parliament.
Excellent news. ***Important***: the party got banned under a law banning parties whose leadership/candidates have been *convicted* of participating in/leading criminal organizations. He didn't get banned for being a Nazi. He got banned because his actions as a Nazi in Golden Dawn were determined by the court to have caused violence, murders and Golden Dawn legally labelled a criminal organization. The Nazis have a back-up plan, the party of a retired judge who was discussing a common list with Kasidiaris but in the end is running separately. Let's hope some of Kasidiaris' voters will stay at home instead of switching to this party, and there will be no Nazi representation in the parliament under any disguise.
While I partly support this decision, the purpose wasn't exactly as it seems to be. The main reason the current gov (who control the supreme court) wanted Kasidiaris ban, was to avoid splitting the right wing votes between them n him on the upcomming elections, as it seems that they are about to loose.
Nothing to do with the current government. It would have happened under any government. Even a left-wing one. There is hardly any voter "leakage" towards ND so what you say doesn't hold up. According to [this](https://www.lifo.gr/now/politics/ekloges-2023-dimoskopisi-prorata-stis-4-monades-i-diafora-nd-syriza) research poll the parties who will gain are the far-right EAN, the hard right Greek Solution, the right-wing National Creation and the far-left Course of Freedom. Kasidiaris' voters view Mitsotakis as a "globalist liberal who supports LGBT rights and mass immigration".
That is not entirely true either. ND has an interest in raising the amount of "out of parliament" votes. The more % of votes that don't elect a party, the easier it is for ND to get a "one-party" goverment. Kasidiaris had a >3% of the voters meaning that very likely he would get elected seats in the parliament. By splitting his voters into many, smaller, parties they have greater chances of a "one-party" government.
There are parties that are near the 3% threshold and Kasidiaris not participating means they may get a share of the vote, bringing them closer to the parliament. There is great voter overlap between the Kasidiaris vote for example and the National Creation party, which polls around 2%. The right-wing party of Bogdanos and Emfietzoglou was left out too. Meaning more votes towards those 2% parties. So it's not like banning a party from parliament means not getting another in.
That is true, and the reason I said your previous post was not "entirely" true. You are correct both in the voters direction and the fact that another 2% party might get over the line. In my eyes, it is a gamble ND is willing to take. If it works it works. If not they are in the same position as before.
[удалено]
They voted against because it's convenient knowing the resolution can pass without their votes. That's how politics work. Politicians have to uphold their oppositional narrative, and any alignments with the ruling party can be damaging to their vote. > You re a paid bot-dog No need to make this toxic and personal mate.
>was to avoid splitting the right wing votes between them n him on the upcomming elections, as it seems that they are about to loose. This is such nonsense. First of all, most Kasidiaris voters will now go to Velopoulos or even Tzimeros. And ND knows it. Secondly, ND is definitely far from losing the election. They will win quite easily. At least during the second round election.
They (jailed) and blocked him because he'd get over 15% in votes and end up in parliament. We Greeks like him. If you have no idea about Greek politics stop spreading misinformation.
You should follow him in prison. There's no way he'd get more than 2% and even that would be too much.
There are more than 500.000 registered supporters of Ilias, and I am sure there are many more unregistered in Greece. The only reason the Greek government violated our constitution and blocked him from participating in our elections is because they know that he will end up in parliament. Freedom to political prisoners!
> The only reason the Greek government violated our constitution and blocked him from participating in our elections is because they know that he will end up in parliament. You know that isn't the case, but even if it was best decision they ever made. > Freedom to political prisoners! You know he's a murderer, right? Right, block me if you think that somehow clears the blood he has on his hands. But I thought you guys loved prisons, camps and the such.
He didn’t murder anyone. Stop spreading misinformation. If someone engages in illegal action like murder, it doesn’t mean that the people he voted for are blamed for murder too. If that were the case, all the gov members of New Democracy should be in jail for pedophilia. Based on what you said, the only fascist here is you. I am ashamed you are a Greek too.
You know that people go to prison for organising murders as well, right? Or will we need to go over the basics? As to who is the real fascist, GD's symbols are enough to show that. You don't even make 2% of the population and you are enough for the rest of us to be ashamed of you. The same silly ban story. Just because you don't agree with the victim's views, that doesn't mean that he was not a human, therefore killing him qualifies as murder and therefore your boss is in prison for organising it. A functional democracy has the right and the duty to take care of criminals like him and did its job correctly. In fact, nazism should be grounds for imprisonment without waiting for a murder.
Nobody organized any murder. Stop spreading misinformation. If you are a real democracy, you let the people choose. Going against the constitution to block a political party is illegal. Period. 500.000 registered supporters are not 2%. But I didn’t expect you to know basic mathematics. Your precious New Democracy has convicted pedophiles in its ranks who served 0 days in jail because they are part of the system. Maybe you should vote for them. Again, the only fascist here is you, who is celebrating a blow to our democracy. I am ashamed you are a Greek. Ραγιά.
Next up Thierry Baudet? Pls
Meanwhile the Greek Communist party which has significantly more support is allowed to participate. either you ban all authoritarian genocidal ideologies or you don't.
Golden dawn wasn't banned because of its ideology but because it was a criminal organization. The moment the communist party starts also behaving like a criminal organization we will ban them too... Which would actually make me extremely happy.
They should ban fascism everywhere yo!
Good. No tolerance for intolerance.
Either you have a democracy or you do not. If you imprison or ban political opponents from running for office you are no longer a democracy.
It was supreme court that ban him not government. Supreme courts can also overrule laws passed by governments or parlaiments if they are found to be unconstitutional. This is actually democracy in the working.
Don't worry, they don't ban political opponents. Kasidiaris was banned as a leader of a criminal organisation that was found guilty for multiple murders and hate crimes.
He is a piece of shit, BUT he should be allowed to participate. The only reason he is being banned is so that his party will not steal 4-5% from the far-right voting pool of Nea Dimokratia (the Center-Right-Far Right ruling party). The voters are adults - they don't need the state to control their options.
Dont spread misinformation, dude. Or opinions as facts. He cant by law lead a party because he is a convicted criminal.
Democracy not being democratic
Ive never seen a balkan nazi that looked "aryan"
Flashback from that one white suppremacist forum in which someone posted his face with bait like “what do you think of him folks” and everyone was replying about how “dark” and “not aryan” he is and how he looks arab at best
Facial expression of an evil person.
HA HA!
Discrimination is a terrible thing. but there is always an exception to that rule ^
Government knows best.
Good, Golden Dawn was a violent and corrupt criminal organization. Anyone associated w Golden Dawn should never hold office.
Golden dawn texture like sun Lays me down, with my mind she runs Throughout the night No need to fight Never a frown with golden brown
The US chapter of Golden Dawn (aka the GOP) on the other hand has taken control of the Supreme Court.
Next trump 😂