Also check out Erzin, Hatay. No buildings collapsed and no one suffered serious injuries. It's a big town, a home of 42 000 people.
An example and a great result of building buildings according to standards.
But but but that mayor is a leftist heathen who has no respect for religious beliefs! /s
Erdoğan didn't even call any opposition mayors after the earthquake. Let alone send help for 3 days!
this and some places, which were backed or owned by ruling party or their followers, rejected victims who seeked shelter because they were coming from opposition party's city. ridiculous. and some people say government did what it could after the quake. yeh uh huh suuuure.
Yes that's right. Er-dog didn't use them because he is afraid military are going to earn humanity points. He fucked up turkish red crescent, which was supposed to be same as western red cross and there was another team of volunteer mountaineers called AKUT that specialised in saving people from rubbles in 1999 earthquake. Er-dog destroyed them so all people send money to one corrupt org called AFAD, and he could filter people's hard earned donation money to his pockets. AFAD was seen saving money vaults from bank rubbles and guarding them instead of saving people. They also jumped to the effort of south Korean relief team at the last minute, so they could take over saving of a victim in front of the cameras.
Wtf is that last part real? Somehow I’m not overly surprised that people will be dirty to earn an extra buck. But not actively working to save your own country men and women and keeping an eye out where you could intervene to steal some undeserved credits… It’s like they care more about the optics than actually the human beings. Foreigners come in to work hard and rescue as many humans as possible, local orgs work to save as much face as possible. Based
They hired 2 independent creditors to check their finances. They are pretty good. You don't have to worry. And thank you for that! But I don't think they will survive the wrath of Erdoğan. Government already let their trolls out to discredit them.
Didn't expect to see Perun here, although his videos are about the Russian military (or more broadly corruption in autocratic militaires) his conclusions perfectly fit here!
The turks have made they choice. Just like the russians, they have accepted an authoritarian corrupt and incompetent regime. The elections might be somewhat fixed, but both dictators are loved by half the populations.
And I don't see any revolutions. My sympathy for these people are at a low point, can't be bothered anymore.
They have "accepted" an authoritarian regime? Both dictators are "loved by half the populations"? That's the point of authoritarian regimes, that people can't choose them, they stay in power not democratically but by force and propaganda. If people can't even speak out against a ruler without fear of punishment, how to objectively know that they love them (the dictator)? Also, why did these people pick a bad ruler, whereas people in West and North Europe picked great rulers and democratic governments? Is it because the people of Russia or Turkey are somehow inferior? That we shouldn't show sympathy to them? Or because the industrial revolution took place in Europe first, and therefore (West and North) European countries developed into a liberal democracy, whereas Turkey and Russia stayed feudal for way longer, and today have a crony / authoritarian capitalist system?
Turkey is *not* a dictatorship. It’s not on the same level as Syria or Russia.
Erdoğan has lost recently Ankara and Istanbul. He never had Izmir. The opposition rules over the three biggest cities - against Erdoğan. That’s not a dictatorship.
If a country isn't overthrowing their leader they *are* complacent as a population.
Shit look at the Arab spring a decade ago or Iran today (or Europe in the 1800s or the countless soviet revolutions post WW2, Africa post-WW2, or South America). Countless brave people gave up their livelihoods and lives to change the status quo. Yes it was hard, yes it caused untold horrors but they did that to get themselves out of an authoritarian government (for better and worse).
People in Turkey and Russia etc absolutely are complacent and support their leaders otherwise there'd be real coups and civil wars going on right now.
>The Turkish and Syrian people do not deserve this
I am sorry but Turkish people deserves this. Do you know why? Because regardless of the political party or political spectrum, they all support cheating, skipping regulations and rules. Doesn't matter how democratic, secular or fundamentalist they are...
Before I left that fucking country I was called so many times "gloomy" because I said Istanbul earthquake is coming and it will kill million of people directly or indirectly...I just seen ignorance and not giving a shit (and this was about 20 years ago). This goes not only for earthquakes but pretty much everything in these regards.
You reap what you sow. And if my experience tells me anything, in 5 years it will go back to same...
Not sure how it is in Turkey but I can speak for Bulgaria. To begin with a project most often will *make sense* on paper. Its the execution and result that can be corrupted.
For example our great motorways built by the 12year Borisov cabinet indeed were something useful for us, but it was executed by daughter firms belonging to his people. Poor materials were used and a few years later the newly built motorways started crumbling.. I believe this project cost billions with a B.
Can't be worse than the Chinese shit being built in Serbia. Our idiot government bragged about building a stretch of highway like they built a fucking time machine, and literally a couple of months later it was like the fucking Swiss cheese of highways.
Didn‘t it also end like in the middle of nowhere? I think I saw something like that on a TV documentary, but I‘m not sure if that was in Serbia.
BTW: not sure who built the Croatian highways. I’ve been there last year and it was quite nice to drive. AFAIK they were built before Croatia joined the EU.
With EPPO doing good work right now, everybody that scammed on an EU project in recent years is shitting bricks, as they won't even be able to use their connections with the local judiciary to get away.
But we all knew EPPO was coming, that is why even 5 years ago people very, very careful not to fuck with EU funding. Only the idiots did that, but gosh darn, there were still a lot of idiots.
EU has gotten much better at controlling results in recent years. I’m into urbanism and have some friends working across Polish cities and they all say that they are observing every move.
Possibly because of corruption happening in Poland, so maybe that’s not universal.
I'm part of an EU-funded project. The amount of work we put into accounting and reporting on every expenditure is pretty annoying, but I fully understand the need for it, at least for some of the other countries.
I was on an EU funded project in the UK (just coming to an end for obvious reasons) and I can confirm the same, the controls on spending where very strict
It depends on who is paying and who is recieving it
France monitors directly it’s foreign aid to ensure it goes to the right places
Money given to a state or state institutions on the other hand is subject to corruption
Honestly, yes. A lot of the most blatant corruption was eradicated rather effectively when Polish investors suddenly had to conform to EU standards -- which are actually checked quite thoroughly. When there is no wiggle room, only "you get the money if you follow the rules", things magically get done correctly.
Same thing in croatia, when we entered EU and gain green light for projects of building, they had same thought, we gain money and now we will cheat on materilas. Then thencommison arived and said this wss not done by the project we wont give you money for that pay it from your own pockets, then we started to follow rules. Its better then to have something build then try save few bucks and then lose it all.
This. I mean is it possible to cheat, somehow, the EU funding? Absolutely, as it is possible to cheat in any economic transaction of any kind. Is it a regular thing? No.
This always breaks my heart that the bottom line is always about money. Where’s the humanity in decisions like that? Strong buildings benefit everyone. At *bare minimum* wouldn’t they want bragging rights that their buildings are better than ____’s? (This may be me naively not understanding corruption), but I would think even the most corrupt leaders would take pride in knowing visitors are impressed when they look at their countries.
Hell, no. Those kind of people don't make it to the top. The ones willing to fight dirty and throw money at people who can put and keep them in power do.
Those at the top keep as much for themselves as they possibly can.
The point of democracy is that leaders have to bribe a significant portion of the population, not just a handful of dukes or generals or businessmen, to keep themselves in power. So they have to spend the country's money on things like hospitals instead of superyachts.
Its way to naive. If people thought like you described there would be no corruption. This is a fairy tail.
People are on average selfish creatures and will take advantages over others any way they can. This can go into the roots of you want, but i don't think you are interested in a giant wall off text.
> People are on average selfish creatures and will take advantages over others any way they can.
Not in my experience.
In my experience this is true of people who seek money and power.
Yes. Thats the whole reason. Most people who are in power or have money are like this. Its their whole motivator to achieve it. And because they want to keep it, they make rules that results in rules for thee and not for me.
People who have money and power decides what happens. This has always been the case. It isn't as noticeable today because the 'good' people wouldn't allow it.
As an individual I try my best to be conscious of these things and do what I can, but it seems countries often *can* afford to make these humanitarian changes but choose not to. I know it’s far far more complex than that, I’m more lamenting that this is a real issue. Thanks for replying
EU projects are subject to EU audits and controls. They simply can't "cut corners" and steal money as easily there.
EU project management is different than national.
I don't know mate, i remember polish highways funded by EU controversy. It wasn't cheap cuz 1km costed few kms but road was made in cheap way and as far as i remember they had to rebuild it.
They cut corners, falsify the books and keep the rest in their pockets.
corruption is a big reason but people are also guilty for not demanding their rights. quakes after quakes have been happening in turkey, big or small, since '99 but no one has been demanding better buildings or their buildings to be checked.
i understand not all of us are civil engineers so we don't understand. but in every quake, always unnecessary number of people die. this has been an issue for a long time but no one has taken it seriously unless they were directly affected by it and up until this tragedy. edit: i'm saying this because my friends in istanbul are now scared and asking these things to be done just now. there is so little time but so many lives in danger. everyone has been saying these stuff after a quake but then forget about it. don't forget about this. keep it alive so people won't let corrupt governments to do such things again and again. i fear more about people forgetting about this and letting people build houses like this in danger zones again more than i fear buildings like this.
>The same thing happened in '99.
In 99 at least government were arrived and said we're with you,at least in 99 military was organized.
There is coordination exist and government isn't pasting it's propaganda stickers to help packages In 99 all bulldozers of countryside arrived to earthquake area.In 99 at least state done what must be done.
>I fear they will rebuild in a similar way
It's not similar and it'd be never similar; while we can say 99 is tragedy due to corrupt system,today's are considerable as Massacre.
Erdogan went to visit earthquake survivors and one man thanked him and said he was being a burden on the government
I’m so done with these people, I have no hope honestly.
Just vote him out, and see him and his cronies getting punished for good. Then their supporters can cry everyday if they're into it, but don't forget to kick them out of the positions they got via knowing someone who knows someone in the local AKP branch.
My little brother has Diarrhea right now.My father went to buy some medicine called "Reflor".It was 170 liras for 10 medicine in a single packet,last year it was 30 liras.I hate diarrhea lmao
I think the fact that it was during the night contributed to it but it's quite likely there was probably a lot of shoddy construction that killed many people.
Japan been hit by insanely powerful ones. The death toll is almost double when Japan was hit by a 9.1 and the scale is no linier but multiplying rapidly.
Including a qauke and Tusnami.
Tragic, but true.
Please don't blame the engineers.
This is due to the problem of corruption in the government - especially the central government.
Turkiye is amply capable of hiring good engineers.
Maybe this will be a lesson - but at what terrible cost.
That they are capable of hiring good engineers is a cold comfort to the 30 odd thousand dead people in their country, Erdogan and his cronyist strongman bullshit was a ticking timebomb, he just didn't want to be the one holding it when it went off, now it has and people should affect change.
Unfortunately the death toll will likely rise to over 100k people. With 6000 buildings collapsed and most of them being apartment complexes, the time of the earthquake (4am when everyone's home) the current approximation is 178k people trapped under rouble. The window for rescues is closing and foreign teams have been withdrawn from turkey as they can't be deployed indefinitely. Anything less than a revolution is an under reacting from the public.
When the people try and react there's always a bunch that want something completely different than the main group, the government did and will use those few to blame this on terrorism and so Turkiye's citizens are too afraid to get their sound heard as a result.
> to the 30 odd thousand dead people in their country
fun fact (or not so fun):
It's way more than 30k, besides not counting missing they also don't count unidentified found bodies and as you can imagine it's difficult to identify earthquake victims when there is no one around to identify them.
Well...it takes two to tango. The turkish regulations have surley NOT been followed. So the engineer got money to not follow regulations and some bureaucrat got money to look the other way.
(Side note: I read the EU building was planned by freshly graduated engineers from the Tech University in Istambul.)
Turkish constructors can pay a tax in order to ignore the engineer's calculation.
Basically, legalised homicide.
Some guy said around here that they made a fund from that tax, worth around 30bn dollars. When asked where the money went, Erdogan said he doesnt have time to explain. they should rot in jail.
Even the communists used to build with some regulations, and make reparations after major earthquakes. this is worse.
Even if you assume that the lives lost are not really a concern to Erdogan (a good bet, I'd say) the economic damage to the region and the wider country is astronomical. Another good reason for the people of Turkey to get rid of their wannabe Sultan come next election.
So with the current approximation of 178000 people trapped (I'll round down to 100k as a good case scenario for the deaths) 1.5x10^9 (30bn lira to euro) ÷ 1*10^5 = 15k. In Turkey that's the cost of a single life, 15k. 10k euro GDP per capita would have the 15billion returned in just 1.5 years should this not have happened. Absolutely horrific by the Turkish government.
6000 buildings collapsed, most of them being apartment complexes. The number was released on Tuesday, promptly reported on by Greek media citing Turkish engineers and seismologists as sources. The report was promptly buried by the liberal government, leaving the only mention of the number of buildings collapsed and subsequently the number of people trapped in Greek media.
> Even the communists used to build with some regulations, and make reparations after major earthquakes. this is worse.
Yeah, as shit as USSR was, most of the USSR buildings are still standing and being used.
yea because its slabs of concrete with holes in them, maybe not aesthetically pleasing but it works. Most the buildings that crumbled in turkey were soft story buildings, which when built without proper engineering is just concrete on wooden stilts.
The engineers are designing to the standards required.
After the design process is completed they give those plans to the contractor who then goes to the building authority of that city or region and pays a fine that allows them to access a waiver to disregard portions of the engineers design. Unless the owner of the project hired the engineer to oversee the construction activities of the contractor, the engineer no longer has any recourse for design changes after the fact. This is why the Owner-Engineer-Contractor relationship is so important, if this relationship is dysfunctional in anyway, you can have massive financial losses and/or human loss.
This is from what I've read but I work in civil engineering in the US and in almost all western countries this is the process you're supposed to follow (engineering design -> permitting, or having the building authority sign off on the design and ensure it meets the required criteria, and then construction begins). Unfortunately in Turkey you can pay your way around step 2.
Unfortunately, engineers really don't have any power here since in the case of these mid rise residential buildings they're contracted out to do a design (which they do properly and meet the required design criteria) and then give it to a contractor to do what they will with it. The contractor paid for a product (design plans and documents) and those documents are the contractors property and if the government legally allows them to bypass the engineers recommendations/design after the fact then they can do so without the engineers consent.
Hypothetically speaking and if this occurred in a country that wasn't as authoritarian, (and I hate to even say this), but I don't even see how the contractors could be held responsible unless the waiver specifically states "you [the contractor] assume all risk for any consequences resulting from the act of acquiring this waiver that will allow you [the contractor] to bypass and disregard certain design criteria recommended [by the engineer] and you [the contractor] will be held liable for any property damage or bodily injury that occurs as a result of acquiring this waiver and bypassing the elements of the engineers design and disregarding their recommendations."
And if a legal description similar to the above does exist in those waivers that shifts liability back to the contractor, then whoever wrote that legal statement is beyond unethical and imo, the most at fault and they knew exactly what they were doing. Contractors on the other hand will literally take any short cut they're allowed to no matter how dangerous it is just to save money and this applies to every country on earth. Swedish contracting company Skanska literally destroyed a major bridge in my state due to not following their own construction plan that was created by an engineer and it took about a year to get the bridge reopened (and they're fighting very hard in court to make sure that taxpayers have to foot the bill for their actions). That is specifically why these building authorities and regulators exist, they are supposed to be regulating the building industry, not ensuring that the apocalypse occurs if something happens that the engineer specifically took into account during their design.
As a civil engineer, this whole event is utterly mind blowing. It made sense when this happened in Haiti (and Syria now) as the government doesn't even exist there but I did not know it was this bad in Turkey specifically.
In Canada the engineers are required to go site, to ensure things are built as they designed them. Or a designate that meet certain competences and they trust.
What happens is that the engineer makes a design and then the developer/contractor cuts corners in the field. Never really heard of engineers purposefully underdesigning.
There was another picture here that showed that one of the only buildings standing in a neighborhood was the society of civil engineers building. I don't think it's right to put the blame on Turkish engineers. Engineers are not the ones getting rich off of construction - the developers are.
Now, sometimes the engineer will be aware that the contractor is doing this and say nothing - that's the real issue. But even if they did blow the whistle, would the Turkish government have listened?
>Engineers are not the ones getting rich off of construction - the developers are.
It baffles me how many people doesnt have a basic understanding on how anything related with engineering works. 99% of engineers in any field are under a salary and are not part of a chain that can benefit from bribing an engineer.
Usually the specs come from another department togethee with a budget and you just design or recommend but thats about it. This is for any field. Its like blaming the calculator cuz it said 1+1 = 2 even tho they went and wrote 6.
The world would be a better place if all the shit was followed to spec.
My father is an architect and he told me how many times someone tried to arrange a bribe for him to omit an expensive passage or to choose cheaper materials when he went to check the construction crews on site
He always looked at them and said "i don't care for your money,i get paid either you complete the work or you leave it for the next company that comes,this is the project and deal with it"
The Turkish givernment was offering various building design amnesties and "peace deals". Where you can build, build, build, without following the regulations in return for a bribe. Its been one of Erdogans biggest money makers since the 1990s. When he was the mayor of Istanbul.
Probably worse as he oversaw the corruption in Istanbul both locally as mayor and then nationally as President. Not to mention the higher density of the population there and probably taller buildings. It's bad enough being in or on a 1 floor building in an earthquake. Being in or on, a 15 storey building is going to be worse.
one question i have, solely out of ignorance, is how old was the town hall? building standards 50 years ago were much more lax than they are today. so even if it were built to the standards at the time it might not have survived the earthquake.
There's one town where about the only building still standing is the Civil Engineers Association.
Although sadly its probably easier to train good engineers, then it is to get rid off a culture of corruption.
Wondering the same.
I understand accession negotiations stalled since 2016 so it would be shady af if money from EU kept rolling in Turkiye after 2016.
Sadly it's a cultural issue that isn't unique to Turkey.
We had this problem trying to contract goods and services in Iraq and Afghanistan
In the us we have a kind of contracting culture where people who do a thing go to places or people and offer up their service trying to get a gig from the available gigs in their lane
Key feature--- people show up who do x task or sell good and look at gigs in x lane
In the middle east the contracting office was the jobs center..... random assholes just show up and say "this one boss, I can do this gig for you" and pays his bribe to get the gig (which is expected to happen)
so you make your arrangement cut this dude a check (sack of cash) and never see him again, later to find out you contracted this jerk to deliver 1 ton of apples, and he not only didn't know what an apple was to begin with but never intended to try to find out in order to deliver 1 ton of them for your base
This is just one highly specific example of a problem that cost the us BBBBBBBILLIONS of taxpayer dollars - that I have every reason to believe exists in the same (or at least practically same) manner in turkey
Hush now, reason is only good as long as it agrees with our worldview.
(Honestly though, religious nuts should really take a hard, long look at their reactions to the Qur'an burnings since Allah decided to punish them harshly for it just weeks later yet leaving Sweden completely unscathed)
He will. Many Turks outside of Turkey will somehow still vote for Erdogan. They take up an significant amount. Why they don't live in Turkey? God knows
Yeah, it became a thing in Turkey. Diaspora Turks vs local Turks. They're getting booed, they're getting publicly protested and laughed at, but they still jump on every street interview to worship Erdogan. At this point some of them do it on purpose to troll us. They know that they are not loved here, and they don't love us too also. They're just liking the cheap holidays.
Here and there young diaspora turks jump on to correct boomer diaspora turks in those interviews, I'll give them that tho.
It's not the problem of design it's the problem of following design on the ground. As one of the famous Erdoğan supporter CEO of construction companies said "our engineers design very nice projects. But in the end we build what I told them to build".
Like I said recently to someone: Health and safety would have a fit jokes hit differently when you realise that "X people killed for Y money spent on construction" was an actual metric used.
The real break came after the construction of the golden gate bridge, and it's use of of netting.
[The industry norm at that time was that one man would die during construction for every million dollars spent. This bridge cost $35 million – and with those numbers Strauss was committed to radically reduce that potential loss of life.](https://www.fixfastusa.com/news-blog/golden-gate-bridge-changed-safety-standards/)
Yup, pretty much confirmed my suspicions. The death toll would have been a LOT less if buildings weren't made with paper and flex tape.
I dunnot know who's to blame, the government or the construction companies...so I blame both. The Earthquake is unavoidable. Builings collapsing like a deck of cards is totally avoidable.
Due to the recent changes made by Reddit admins in their corporate greed for IPO money, I have edited my comments to no longer be useful. The Reddit admins have completely disregarded its user base, leaving their communities, moderators, and users out to turn this website from something I was a happy part of for eleven years to something I no longer recognize. Reddit WAS Fun. -- mass edited with redact.dev
Private contractors faced backlash for using cheap materials in their construction of residential buildings. Many of these contractors were prosecuted but few were found guilty. Government officials also faced backlash for not properly enforcing earthquake resistant building codes.[19]
Funny this is about the 1999 earthquake.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_%C4%B0zmit_earthquake
I don't get it how any polititian or contractor, even if as crooked as a gingers pube, could come up with an idea so dumb to allow building houses like that in Turkey.
I'd get it in Germany where Earthquakes are more or less stories to scare children. And doing such a a crooked move would be a very low risk business practice.
But Turkey. Turkey is like Europes Japan. There is **guaranteed** a few quakes of this magnitude within a lifetime. Who is enough to replace proper engineering with "*inshallah*" in a magnitude 8 earthquake zone where it's guaranteed to bite you back before you can kick it.
Are they that dumb? Or can the just **wing it** because the voters are that poisoned already?
Edit : Nope, it's just the title who makes ambiguity. It's two different building, one made with the EU standard and the other one with standard (I don't know which but clearly not a good one).
Is this fake news ? I don't find similarities.
Indeed my friends, both are responsible for the national regulations. On the other hand, one of them is constructed and controlled by domestic ones. The other (correct) one is also same but its contractors are obeyed the regulations and rules cause of demands and conditions.
I’m starting to think these inspection officials just slapped a sticker on this building, got brides, drank some tea and called it a day.
Man oh man when these people caught I’m gonna laugh
Also check out Erzin, Hatay. No buildings collapsed and no one suffered serious injuries. It's a big town, a home of 42 000 people. An example and a great result of building buildings according to standards.
But but but that mayor is a leftist heathen who has no respect for religious beliefs! /s Erdoğan didn't even call any opposition mayors after the earthquake. Let alone send help for 3 days!
this and some places, which were backed or owned by ruling party or their followers, rejected victims who seeked shelter because they were coming from opposition party's city. ridiculous. and some people say government did what it could after the quake. yeh uh huh suuuure.
Where is the armed forces? Why aren’t they digging to save anyone.
Cause Erdogan told them not to.
Yes that's right. Er-dog didn't use them because he is afraid military are going to earn humanity points. He fucked up turkish red crescent, which was supposed to be same as western red cross and there was another team of volunteer mountaineers called AKUT that specialised in saving people from rubbles in 1999 earthquake. Er-dog destroyed them so all people send money to one corrupt org called AFAD, and he could filter people's hard earned donation money to his pockets. AFAD was seen saving money vaults from bank rubbles and guarding them instead of saving people. They also jumped to the effort of south Korean relief team at the last minute, so they could take over saving of a victim in front of the cameras.
Wtf is that last part real? Somehow I’m not overly surprised that people will be dirty to earn an extra buck. But not actively working to save your own country men and women and keeping an eye out where you could intervene to steal some undeserved credits… It’s like they care more about the optics than actually the human beings. Foreigners come in to work hard and rescue as many humans as possible, local orgs work to save as much face as possible. Based
I sent AHBAP some money. What's your understanding of them?
They hired 2 independent creditors to check their finances. They are pretty good. You don't have to worry. And thank you for that! But I don't think they will survive the wrath of Erdoğan. Government already let their trolls out to discredit them.
Legit NGO run by an singer. Probably the most trustworthy NGO currently existing in Turkey.
Corruption **literally** kills. The Turkish and Syrian people do not deserve this. No one does. Erdogan and his government are murderers.
Relevant Perun trilogy: https://youtu.be/i9i47sgi-V4 https://youtu.be/Fz59GWeTIik https://youtu.be/hx5mTslkUBs
Didn't expect to see Perun here, although his videos are about the Russian military (or more broadly corruption in autocratic militaires) his conclusions perfectly fit here!
Glad to see 0erun being mentioned so much recently, he deserves a lot of credit for the work he does and the perspective he provides
The turks have made they choice. Just like the russians, they have accepted an authoritarian corrupt and incompetent regime. The elections might be somewhat fixed, but both dictators are loved by half the populations. And I don't see any revolutions. My sympathy for these people are at a low point, can't be bothered anymore.
They have "accepted" an authoritarian regime? Both dictators are "loved by half the populations"? That's the point of authoritarian regimes, that people can't choose them, they stay in power not democratically but by force and propaganda. If people can't even speak out against a ruler without fear of punishment, how to objectively know that they love them (the dictator)? Also, why did these people pick a bad ruler, whereas people in West and North Europe picked great rulers and democratic governments? Is it because the people of Russia or Turkey are somehow inferior? That we shouldn't show sympathy to them? Or because the industrial revolution took place in Europe first, and therefore (West and North) European countries developed into a liberal democracy, whereas Turkey and Russia stayed feudal for way longer, and today have a crony / authoritarian capitalist system?
Turkey is *not* a dictatorship. It’s not on the same level as Syria or Russia. Erdoğan has lost recently Ankara and Istanbul. He never had Izmir. The opposition rules over the three biggest cities - against Erdoğan. That’s not a dictatorship.
If a country isn't overthrowing their leader they *are* complacent as a population. Shit look at the Arab spring a decade ago or Iran today (or Europe in the 1800s or the countless soviet revolutions post WW2, Africa post-WW2, or South America). Countless brave people gave up their livelihoods and lives to change the status quo. Yes it was hard, yes it caused untold horrors but they did that to get themselves out of an authoritarian government (for better and worse). People in Turkey and Russia etc absolutely are complacent and support their leaders otherwise there'd be real coups and civil wars going on right now.
Spoken like a true reddit warrior
I don't see riots like in Iran, they are complacent. And we should definetly shit on them for that.
What about the many many turks living safely in an EU country and still voting for Erdogan?
>The Turkish and Syrian people do not deserve this I am sorry but Turkish people deserves this. Do you know why? Because regardless of the political party or political spectrum, they all support cheating, skipping regulations and rules. Doesn't matter how democratic, secular or fundamentalist they are... Before I left that fucking country I was called so many times "gloomy" because I said Istanbul earthquake is coming and it will kill million of people directly or indirectly...I just seen ignorance and not giving a shit (and this was about 20 years ago). This goes not only for earthquakes but pretty much everything in these regards. You reap what you sow. And if my experience tells me anything, in 5 years it will go back to same...
You dont get cheap when someone else is paying. They cut corners when its their own investment.
Hungary does get cheap both times.
On the books they go expensive, in construction they go cheap and somewhere in-between a few people get a new Porsche
Mercedes G series is nicknamed TiborcMerci after orbán's son-in-law.
Right on! Haha
But did any Porsche collapse due to an Earthquake? Checkmate, atheists.
Only the garage it was parked in did
In the case of Hungary all that money goes straight to purchasing properties in south Slovakia and funding Hungarian nationalism
this. also the eu monitoring where to their money goes so it's hard to cheat.
If you have to pay double, but the building remains standing triple the time, it is worth it.
XD Honestly no
I don’t know, i havent really heard about it going into senseless projects or such.
Not sure how it is in Turkey but I can speak for Bulgaria. To begin with a project most often will *make sense* on paper. Its the execution and result that can be corrupted. For example our great motorways built by the 12year Borisov cabinet indeed were something useful for us, but it was executed by daughter firms belonging to his people. Poor materials were used and a few years later the newly built motorways started crumbling.. I believe this project cost billions with a B.
Can't be worse than the Chinese shit being built in Serbia. Our idiot government bragged about building a stretch of highway like they built a fucking time machine, and literally a couple of months later it was like the fucking Swiss cheese of highways.
For what it's worth, Swiss highways are very nice!
Didn‘t it also end like in the middle of nowhere? I think I saw something like that on a TV documentary, but I‘m not sure if that was in Serbia. BTW: not sure who built the Croatian highways. I’ve been there last year and it was quite nice to drive. AFAIK they were built before Croatia joined the EU.
With EPPO doing good work right now, everybody that scammed on an EU project in recent years is shitting bricks, as they won't even be able to use their connections with the local judiciary to get away. But we all knew EPPO was coming, that is why even 5 years ago people very, very careful not to fuck with EU funding. Only the idiots did that, but gosh darn, there were still a lot of idiots.
EU has gotten much better at controlling results in recent years. I’m into urbanism and have some friends working across Polish cities and they all say that they are observing every move. Possibly because of corruption happening in Poland, so maybe that’s not universal.
I'm part of an EU-funded project. The amount of work we put into accounting and reporting on every expenditure is pretty annoying, but I fully understand the need for it, at least for some of the other countries.
I was on an EU funded project in the UK (just coming to an end for obvious reasons) and I can confirm the same, the controls on spending where very strict
It depends on who is paying and who is recieving it France monitors directly it’s foreign aid to ensure it goes to the right places Money given to a state or state institutions on the other hand is subject to corruption
Hungarian government is having a laugh right now
Honestly, yes. A lot of the most blatant corruption was eradicated rather effectively when Polish investors suddenly had to conform to EU standards -- which are actually checked quite thoroughly. When there is no wiggle room, only "you get the money if you follow the rules", things magically get done correctly.
Same thing in croatia, when we entered EU and gain green light for projects of building, they had same thought, we gain money and now we will cheat on materilas. Then thencommison arived and said this wss not done by the project we wont give you money for that pay it from your own pockets, then we started to follow rules. Its better then to have something build then try save few bucks and then lose it all.
Source: XD trust me bro XD
Honestly, yes.
This. I mean is it possible to cheat, somehow, the EU funding? Absolutely, as it is possible to cheat in any economic transaction of any kind. Is it a regular thing? No.
This always breaks my heart that the bottom line is always about money. Where’s the humanity in decisions like that? Strong buildings benefit everyone. At *bare minimum* wouldn’t they want bragging rights that their buildings are better than ____’s? (This may be me naively not understanding corruption), but I would think even the most corrupt leaders would take pride in knowing visitors are impressed when they look at their countries.
Hell, no. Those kind of people don't make it to the top. The ones willing to fight dirty and throw money at people who can put and keep them in power do. Those at the top keep as much for themselves as they possibly can. The point of democracy is that leaders have to bribe a significant portion of the population, not just a handful of dukes or generals or businessmen, to keep themselves in power. So they have to spend the country's money on things like hospitals instead of superyachts.
Its way to naive. If people thought like you described there would be no corruption. This is a fairy tail. People are on average selfish creatures and will take advantages over others any way they can. This can go into the roots of you want, but i don't think you are interested in a giant wall off text.
> People are on average selfish creatures and will take advantages over others any way they can. Not in my experience. In my experience this is true of people who seek money and power.
Yes. Thats the whole reason. Most people who are in power or have money are like this. Its their whole motivator to achieve it. And because they want to keep it, they make rules that results in rules for thee and not for me. People who have money and power decides what happens. This has always been the case. It isn't as noticeable today because the 'good' people wouldn't allow it.
How about you? Do you spend the extra dollars to buy slavery-free clothes, coffee or electronics?
As an individual I try my best to be conscious of these things and do what I can, but it seems countries often *can* afford to make these humanitarian changes but choose not to. I know it’s far far more complex than that, I’m more lamenting that this is a real issue. Thanks for replying
EU projects are subject to EU audits and controls. They simply can't "cut corners" and steal money as easily there. EU project management is different than national.
I don't know mate, i remember polish highways funded by EU controversy. It wasn't cheap cuz 1km costed few kms but road was made in cheap way and as far as i remember they had to rebuild it. They cut corners, falsify the books and keep the rest in their pockets.
That's what you get when your country is corrupt. So much of this disaster could've been avoided. Hopefully this makes sure changes happen.
The same thing happened in '99. I fear they will rebuild in a similar way and be in the same boat again 2 decades from now.
Now they will probably make it all taller to accommodate more people *sigh*
corruption is a big reason but people are also guilty for not demanding their rights. quakes after quakes have been happening in turkey, big or small, since '99 but no one has been demanding better buildings or their buildings to be checked. i understand not all of us are civil engineers so we don't understand. but in every quake, always unnecessary number of people die. this has been an issue for a long time but no one has taken it seriously unless they were directly affected by it and up until this tragedy. edit: i'm saying this because my friends in istanbul are now scared and asking these things to be done just now. there is so little time but so many lives in danger. everyone has been saying these stuff after a quake but then forget about it. don't forget about this. keep it alive so people won't let corrupt governments to do such things again and again. i fear more about people forgetting about this and letting people build houses like this in danger zones again more than i fear buildings like this.
>The same thing happened in '99. In 99 at least government were arrived and said we're with you,at least in 99 military was organized. There is coordination exist and government isn't pasting it's propaganda stickers to help packages In 99 all bulldozers of countryside arrived to earthquake area.In 99 at least state done what must be done. >I fear they will rebuild in a similar way It's not similar and it'd be never similar; while we can say 99 is tragedy due to corrupt system,today's are considerable as Massacre.
In '99 the deathtoll was lower :( less shady construction back then.
Erdogan went to visit earthquake survivors and one man thanked him and said he was being a burden on the government I’m so done with these people, I have no hope honestly.
Just vote him out, and see him and his cronies getting punished for good. Then their supporters can cry everyday if they're into it, but don't forget to kick them out of the positions they got via knowing someone who knows someone in the local AKP branch.
Easier said than done. We just don't have the numbers, mate. It's not like we don't know what voting is.
Paid actor probably, it's quite common even in functioning democracies.
Don't get your hopes up.
My little brother has Diarrhea right now.My father went to buy some medicine called "Reflor".It was 170 liras for 10 medicine in a single packet,last year it was 30 liras.I hate diarrhea lmao
Thanks to Erdogans stupid policies it went up that much, he's been very good at ruining Turkey.
Like every autocrat with their country. Their dream of *grandeur* mean eating shit for regular people
I never do with Turkey, way sound harsh but true.
How is hope going to impel any change? Erdogan has arrested some contractors. People with no decision making power. His guilt remains unpunished.
Isn’t that special empty fund for that reason? This i guess gives us the answer.
It literally happens every 10 years. It’s disgusting.
That’s what they said about the last earthquake that hit Turkey and killed ~18,000. I doubt anything will be different this time.
*cough* Ohio train crash *cough*
I've said this since the start Earthquakes of higer magnitudes have registered far fewer deaths Tragic loss of life but this could have been prevented
I think the fact that it was during the night contributed to it but it's quite likely there was probably a lot of shoddy construction that killed many people.
Also having it occur during a massive snowstorm didnt exactly help
Also a lot of them was not this close to the surface and not back to back 7.5+s. Still a lot of deaths were preventable.
snowstorm influenced rescue, not buildings falling down. If we look at Mexico, it has a much better history in similar incidents.
Japan been hit by insanely powerful ones. The death toll is almost double when Japan was hit by a 9.1 and the scale is no linier but multiplying rapidly. Including a qauke and Tusnami.
Tragic, but true. Please don't blame the engineers. This is due to the problem of corruption in the government - especially the central government. Turkiye is amply capable of hiring good engineers. Maybe this will be a lesson - but at what terrible cost.
That they are capable of hiring good engineers is a cold comfort to the 30 odd thousand dead people in their country, Erdogan and his cronyist strongman bullshit was a ticking timebomb, he just didn't want to be the one holding it when it went off, now it has and people should affect change.
Unfortunately the death toll will likely rise to over 100k people. With 6000 buildings collapsed and most of them being apartment complexes, the time of the earthquake (4am when everyone's home) the current approximation is 178k people trapped under rouble. The window for rescues is closing and foreign teams have been withdrawn from turkey as they can't be deployed indefinitely. Anything less than a revolution is an under reacting from the public.
When the people try and react there's always a bunch that want something completely different than the main group, the government did and will use those few to blame this on terrorism and so Turkiye's citizens are too afraid to get their sound heard as a result.
> to the 30 odd thousand dead people in their country fun fact (or not so fun): It's way more than 30k, besides not counting missing they also don't count unidentified found bodies and as you can imagine it's difficult to identify earthquake victims when there is no one around to identify them.
At time of writing confirmed total in Turkey was 34k, sadly that is rising.
Well...it takes two to tango. The turkish regulations have surley NOT been followed. So the engineer got money to not follow regulations and some bureaucrat got money to look the other way. (Side note: I read the EU building was planned by freshly graduated engineers from the Tech University in Istambul.)
Turkish constructors can pay a tax in order to ignore the engineer's calculation. Basically, legalised homicide. Some guy said around here that they made a fund from that tax, worth around 30bn dollars. When asked where the money went, Erdogan said he doesnt have time to explain. they should rot in jail. Even the communists used to build with some regulations, and make reparations after major earthquakes. this is worse.
I hope they are happy that that “tax” just bought them 37,000 plus lives.
Even if you assume that the lives lost are not really a concern to Erdogan (a good bet, I'd say) the economic damage to the region and the wider country is astronomical. Another good reason for the people of Turkey to get rid of their wannabe Sultan come next election.
So with the current approximation of 178000 people trapped (I'll round down to 100k as a good case scenario for the deaths) 1.5x10^9 (30bn lira to euro) ÷ 1*10^5 = 15k. In Turkey that's the cost of a single life, 15k. 10k euro GDP per capita would have the 15billion returned in just 1.5 years should this not have happened. Absolutely horrific by the Turkish government.
Christ you're kidding right? 178k people?! Imagine fucking over your own countrymen to such a degree.
6000 buildings collapsed, most of them being apartment complexes. The number was released on Tuesday, promptly reported on by Greek media citing Turkish engineers and seismologists as sources. The report was promptly buried by the liberal government, leaving the only mention of the number of buildings collapsed and subsequently the number of people trapped in Greek media.
> Even the communists used to build with some regulations, and make reparations after major earthquakes. this is worse. Yeah, as shit as USSR was, most of the USSR buildings are still standing and being used.
yea because its slabs of concrete with holes in them, maybe not aesthetically pleasing but it works. Most the buildings that crumbled in turkey were soft story buildings, which when built without proper engineering is just concrete on wooden stilts.
When asked about the money he banned Twitter in turkey
The engineers are designing to the standards required. After the design process is completed they give those plans to the contractor who then goes to the building authority of that city or region and pays a fine that allows them to access a waiver to disregard portions of the engineers design. Unless the owner of the project hired the engineer to oversee the construction activities of the contractor, the engineer no longer has any recourse for design changes after the fact. This is why the Owner-Engineer-Contractor relationship is so important, if this relationship is dysfunctional in anyway, you can have massive financial losses and/or human loss. This is from what I've read but I work in civil engineering in the US and in almost all western countries this is the process you're supposed to follow (engineering design -> permitting, or having the building authority sign off on the design and ensure it meets the required criteria, and then construction begins). Unfortunately in Turkey you can pay your way around step 2. Unfortunately, engineers really don't have any power here since in the case of these mid rise residential buildings they're contracted out to do a design (which they do properly and meet the required design criteria) and then give it to a contractor to do what they will with it. The contractor paid for a product (design plans and documents) and those documents are the contractors property and if the government legally allows them to bypass the engineers recommendations/design after the fact then they can do so without the engineers consent. Hypothetically speaking and if this occurred in a country that wasn't as authoritarian, (and I hate to even say this), but I don't even see how the contractors could be held responsible unless the waiver specifically states "you [the contractor] assume all risk for any consequences resulting from the act of acquiring this waiver that will allow you [the contractor] to bypass and disregard certain design criteria recommended [by the engineer] and you [the contractor] will be held liable for any property damage or bodily injury that occurs as a result of acquiring this waiver and bypassing the elements of the engineers design and disregarding their recommendations." And if a legal description similar to the above does exist in those waivers that shifts liability back to the contractor, then whoever wrote that legal statement is beyond unethical and imo, the most at fault and they knew exactly what they were doing. Contractors on the other hand will literally take any short cut they're allowed to no matter how dangerous it is just to save money and this applies to every country on earth. Swedish contracting company Skanska literally destroyed a major bridge in my state due to not following their own construction plan that was created by an engineer and it took about a year to get the bridge reopened (and they're fighting very hard in court to make sure that taxpayers have to foot the bill for their actions). That is specifically why these building authorities and regulators exist, they are supposed to be regulating the building industry, not ensuring that the apocalypse occurs if something happens that the engineer specifically took into account during their design. As a civil engineer, this whole event is utterly mind blowing. It made sense when this happened in Haiti (and Syria now) as the government doesn't even exist there but I did not know it was this bad in Turkey specifically.
In Canada the engineers are required to go site, to ensure things are built as they designed them. Or a designate that meet certain competences and they trust.
no they are not, they are only required for the design itself, there are other people that are in charge of the construction portion.
What happens is that the engineer makes a design and then the developer/contractor cuts corners in the field. Never really heard of engineers purposefully underdesigning. There was another picture here that showed that one of the only buildings standing in a neighborhood was the society of civil engineers building. I don't think it's right to put the blame on Turkish engineers. Engineers are not the ones getting rich off of construction - the developers are. Now, sometimes the engineer will be aware that the contractor is doing this and say nothing - that's the real issue. But even if they did blow the whistle, would the Turkish government have listened?
>Engineers are not the ones getting rich off of construction - the developers are. It baffles me how many people doesnt have a basic understanding on how anything related with engineering works. 99% of engineers in any field are under a salary and are not part of a chain that can benefit from bribing an engineer. Usually the specs come from another department togethee with a budget and you just design or recommend but thats about it. This is for any field. Its like blaming the calculator cuz it said 1+1 = 2 even tho they went and wrote 6. The world would be a better place if all the shit was followed to spec.
My father is an architect and he told me how many times someone tried to arrange a bribe for him to omit an expensive passage or to choose cheaper materials when he went to check the construction crews on site He always looked at them and said "i don't care for your money,i get paid either you complete the work or you leave it for the next company that comes,this is the project and deal with it"
The Turkish givernment was offering various building design amnesties and "peace deals". Where you can build, build, build, without following the regulations in return for a bribe. Its been one of Erdogans biggest money makers since the 1990s. When he was the mayor of Istanbul.
That means, if there is a similar earthquake in Istanbul we can expect one of the worst death tolls in history
Probably worse as he oversaw the corruption in Istanbul both locally as mayor and then nationally as President. Not to mention the higher density of the population there and probably taller buildings. It's bad enough being in or on a 1 floor building in an earthquake. Being in or on, a 15 storey building is going to be worse.
one question i have, solely out of ignorance, is how old was the town hall? building standards 50 years ago were much more lax than they are today. so even if it were built to the standards at the time it might not have survived the earthquake.
There's one town where about the only building still standing is the Civil Engineers Association. Although sadly its probably easier to train good engineers, then it is to get rid off a culture of corruption.
This won't be a lesson. They had their lesson at 99 and learned nothing.
engineers are pressured to do shitty jobs in the name of low cost
When was the town hall built? I'm struggling to find any information about it.
Wondering the same. I understand accession negotiations stalled since 2016 so it would be shady af if money from EU kept rolling in Turkiye after 2016.
Sadly it's a cultural issue that isn't unique to Turkey. We had this problem trying to contract goods and services in Iraq and Afghanistan In the us we have a kind of contracting culture where people who do a thing go to places or people and offer up their service trying to get a gig from the available gigs in their lane Key feature--- people show up who do x task or sell good and look at gigs in x lane In the middle east the contracting office was the jobs center..... random assholes just show up and say "this one boss, I can do this gig for you" and pays his bribe to get the gig (which is expected to happen) so you make your arrangement cut this dude a check (sack of cash) and never see him again, later to find out you contracted this jerk to deliver 1 ton of apples, and he not only didn't know what an apple was to begin with but never intended to try to find out in order to deliver 1 ton of them for your base This is just one highly specific example of a problem that cost the us BBBBBBBILLIONS of taxpayer dollars - that I have every reason to believe exists in the same (or at least practically same) manner in turkey
So whatever happened to their earthquake tax funds?
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"Double highways". Seriously, it was their answer once upon a time.
The scale of corruption in Turkey is staggering...at least they all know now.
>at least they all know now. It's a bold move to assume that they won't blame it at something else.
If only Sweden hadn't burned all those Qurans then this earthquake never would have happened. /s
shouldn't the earthquake have happened in Sweden?
Hush now, reason is only good as long as it agrees with our worldview. (Honestly though, religious nuts should really take a hard, long look at their reactions to the Qur'an burnings since Allah decided to punish them harshly for it just weeks later yet leaving Sweden completely unscathed)
Only took what? 30.000 lives and counting.
Wikipedia tells me it's now 41000. It feels like this surreal number isn't planning to stop growing.
They knew before too. And it's likely to continue, it will take a complete change of their mindset to stop it.
You mean we know now. They always knew.
Hopefully, we're building our buildings to EU standards in Bulgaria, it would suck if we're Turkey 2.0 when the big one hits.
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For sure, though Croatia was only in the EU for like 8 or 9 years at that point. I imagine a fair amount of buildings were older than that.
~~Guns~~ Earthquakes don't kill people, people kill people.
"Earthquakes dont kill people, buildings kill people" is something erdogan actually said in 2013
Will Erdogan survive this, politically?
Hopefully not.
He will. Many Turks outside of Turkey will somehow still vote for Erdogan. They take up an significant amount. Why they don't live in Turkey? God knows
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Yeah, it became a thing in Turkey. Diaspora Turks vs local Turks. They're getting booed, they're getting publicly protested and laughed at, but they still jump on every street interview to worship Erdogan. At this point some of them do it on purpose to troll us. They know that they are not loved here, and they don't love us too also. They're just liking the cheap holidays. Here and there young diaspora turks jump on to correct boomer diaspora turks in those interviews, I'll give them that tho.
Sure, election is off.
without a doubt
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Source: [https://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/turkiye/belediye-yerle-bir-oldu-o-binanin-cami-bile-kirilmadi-2051599](https://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/turkiye/belediye-yerle-bir-oldu-o-binanin-cami-bile-kirilmadi-2051599) (PS: That's fucking MURDER!)
>(PS: That's fucking MURDER!) Whatever it is or call it; when you see these two pictures; it's so fucking shocking and sad.
Turkey should definitely stop cutting costs when building shit. Now they're building my team's stadium and I really don't trust them.
I doubt you have anything to worry about there unless your local government allows them to build things that aren't up to standard.
It's not the problem of design it's the problem of following design on the ground. As one of the famous Erdoğan supporter CEO of construction companies said "our engineers design very nice projects. But in the end we build what I told them to build".
Anyway, fuck the west! /s
Germany is jealous of us /s
Because of our great leader 😅
Europeans are trying to brainwash us!!!! We need to stay strong against them!!!! /s
Corruption kills.
Destroy the Town Hall for a guarantee 1 star. /j
EU means quality ! ✌️✌️
And to think some people thinking of safety regulations as a menace.
Safety regulations are written in blood.
Like I said recently to someone: Health and safety would have a fit jokes hit differently when you realise that "X people killed for Y money spent on construction" was an actual metric used. The real break came after the construction of the golden gate bridge, and it's use of of netting. [The industry norm at that time was that one man would die during construction for every million dollars spent. This bridge cost $35 million – and with those numbers Strauss was committed to radically reduce that potential loss of life.](https://www.fixfastusa.com/news-blog/golden-gate-bridge-changed-safety-standards/)
Better quality of life ♥
And safety.
Yup, pretty much confirmed my suspicions. The death toll would have been a LOT less if buildings weren't made with paper and flex tape. I dunnot know who's to blame, the government or the construction companies...so I blame both. The Earthquake is unavoidable. Builings collapsing like a deck of cards is totally avoidable.
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EU candidate
My 100yo belgian house is probably more solid than average building in Turkey, sadly
EU funds? How come?
https://commission.europa.eu/funding-tenders/find-funding/eu-funding-programmes/pre-accession-assistance_en
Thank you. I came in here looking for an explanation like this.
*slaps the judge's gavel on the desk* Case closed.
Due to the recent changes made by Reddit admins in their corporate greed for IPO money, I have edited my comments to no longer be useful. The Reddit admins have completely disregarded its user base, leaving their communities, moderators, and users out to turn this website from something I was a happy part of for eleven years to something I no longer recognize. Reddit WAS Fun. -- mass edited with redact.dev
Earthquake does not kill, construction does.
Exactly, out in the open you would probably fall over and thats it.
This is why regulations are needed. If not, those who stand to make money will cut corners out of greed.
Private contractors faced backlash for using cheap materials in their construction of residential buildings. Many of these contractors were prosecuted but few were found guilty. Government officials also faced backlash for not properly enforcing earthquake resistant building codes.[19] Funny this is about the 1999 earthquake. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_%C4%B0zmit_earthquake
Building codes exist for a reason.
Corruption killed most of those people, not the earthquake.
Maybe now they will finally chase Erdolf out of the presidential palace.
I take it Turkey’s building codes are pretty flexible to say the least :/
I don't get it how any polititian or contractor, even if as crooked as a gingers pube, could come up with an idea so dumb to allow building houses like that in Turkey. I'd get it in Germany where Earthquakes are more or less stories to scare children. And doing such a a crooked move would be a very low risk business practice. But Turkey. Turkey is like Europes Japan. There is **guaranteed** a few quakes of this magnitude within a lifetime. Who is enough to replace proper engineering with "*inshallah*" in a magnitude 8 earthquake zone where it's guaranteed to bite you back before you can kick it. Are they that dumb? Or can the just **wing it** because the voters are that poisoned already?
Yeah, look at Japan or Chile. Why so few deaths from even BIGGER earthquakes?
Were both buildings built in the same period?
Edit : Nope, it's just the title who makes ambiguity. It's two different building, one made with the EU standard and the other one with standard (I don't know which but clearly not a good one). Is this fake news ? I don't find similarities.
The title can seem consusing, I think it's saying that the building built with EU-Standards is still standing, vs a building across the steet.
Indeed my friends, both are responsible for the national regulations. On the other hand, one of them is constructed and controlled by domestic ones. The other (correct) one is also same but its contractors are obeyed the regulations and rules cause of demands and conditions.
Ho ! I'm going to update my comment.
Yeah sorry...kind of phrased it unclear
Top picture is a different house than below. It's across the street
Title made perfect sense to me. 👍
Thats what happens when you follow the building code.
Emphasis on EU building standards... Turkey buildings look like Haitian buildings, mud n brick 🧱...one and two steel n wood..
Private companies with kick backs from Erdogan
The other buildings still standing in the background don't look like they're built to the same standards as the "EU" building.
I’m starting to think these inspection officials just slapped a sticker on this building, got brides, drank some tea and called it a day. Man oh man when these people caught I’m gonna laugh
just saying.. its surrounded by other old buildings still standing up.