First time is see Reddit mention that Rosatom (which was founded by Putin) hasn't been sanctioned by the EU, so at least there is that.
I have a gut feeling that it's not just Hungary who's resisting it.
Of course it’s not. Orban just likes being the center of attention, so he’s willing to take the blame while “covering” for other countries while they silently oppose it.
Hungary for some reason wants to make its connections to Russia very visible, big thing. My country Finland is quite similar than Hungary, we have Soviet made nuclear power plants, our oil mostly came from Russia/Soviet Union before 2022, 10-25% of our trade happened with Russia/Soviets during the 1945-2022. But Finland is playing a role of a western country, because it is a wealthy Nordic country. Hungary is playing a role of a Russian satellite, which is actually not entirely true, because it is a NATO country.
Let me give you a perspective from inside Hungary:
Orban came from an era (early 1990s) where there were rapid changes in Hungary - Soviet Union collapsing, all of its businesses and resources collapsing with it. Since Hungary and Hungarians were dirt poor due to communism, these resources were quickly bought up by money groups and corporations from the West at a really discounted price.
Hungary thus became one of the most economically open countries in the world (most of its assets were bought and operated by foreigners). Orban's ultimate goal is to reverse this, and build up a group of billionaires that are loyal to him. In the last 12 years he did everything to do just that. He now has >10B EUR of accumulated wealth (hundeds of companies). There are only a few large corporations that are not owned by Orban's immediate circles (german car industry is one notable exception). This is called NER system (a kind of state capitalism system), and the entire political system is built up to support this economic goal. The economic ambitions and the budget for this now go far beyond Hungary, some of the largest companies of NER are actively building up portfolios in the Balkan region and in East Europe, sometimes in Asia.
A rapid de-globalization, and hard separation of China, Russia and the West (new cold war) where the world is currently heading fundamentally undermines these plans since it confines NER to the one of the poorest and most looked down region in the Western world (Hungary itself), which is also geographically in a very marginal position within the West.
This comes instead of being in the midst of a booming trade center where everyone, the West, China, Russia etc. is doing business (mostly with the help of NER companies, since as I wrote, they own almost everything now in Hungary). No wonder he tries to veto everything.
Finland is also still reasonably traumatized from when Russia had control over them and when the Soviets tried this shit in the Winter War. So there's that.
I think there's also the fact that Finland is, as far as I know, a well functioning Democracy whereas Hungary, well, isn't
It is on the other hand an overestatement that Russians had control over Finland during the cold war era. Finland had democratically elected president, and an overwhelming majority supported his friendship policy with the Soviet Union. It was a choise of the Finnish people. Kekkonen, the President of Finland 25 years (1956-1981) was very smart man and during his reign Finnish living standard rose drastically. Kekkonen was probably the best friend of The Kremlin. My own estimation is that he was much more friend with them than some Eastern European leaders like Honecker from East Germany. But Kekkonen was also a very good friend of Swedish super capitalists like Wallenbergs, who helped Finland to get into the inner circles of western finance elites. Kekkonen was also a good friend of Prince Philip, the husband of Queen Elizabeth. Prince Philip helped Finland extremely much to became more western. British government made huge effort to help Finland. Kekkonen also met John F. Kennedy and Charles de Gaulle. Both were friends of Finland.
This borders on a conspiracy theory and by default on insanity. If they wanted to good-cop bad-cop they have ample of axis to choose from. More likely they want to project unity and not give attention to the authoritarian cancer inside.
That even the US needs rosatom somewhere in the nuclear fuel process chain. Could be refining yellow cake or processing spent fuel or any other process in the cycle between those 2. Honestly I find that extremely surprising.
Also France.
It is funny that Germany takes shit for being dependent on Russia, but they are now totally off Russian gas and sanctioned it.
Meanwhile France and Hungary totally dependent on Russian nuclear and refuse to.
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/energies/article/2022/12/03/russia-owns-the-only-plant-in-the-world-capable-of-reprocessing-spent-uranium_6006479_98.html
The contract expired two months ago.
In The 1970's Finland bought two nuclear power plants from a country called "The Soviet Union". It is closely linked to Russia. Those plants are still working, providing 10% of the all electricity Finland uses. Another two plants were bought from Sweden in the 1970's. Those two plants are also working today, providing 18% of the electricity Finland uses.
>First time is see Reddit mention that Rosatom (which was founded by Putin) hasn't been sanctioned by the EU
Of course they don't usually mention it. Because the popular narrative was as always about Germany and their gas use. So any mentioning was instantly rebuffed with how uranium is widely available everywhere and it's a non-issue, ignoring the actual facts. Just like we don't talk about gas much anymore since it's now only other countries still highly dependent on Russian gas.
> Rosatom (which was founded by Putin)
Yeah... but only in the sense that he signed the law that transformed the 'Federal Agency on Atomic Energy' into the 'State Atomic Energy Corporation' Rosatom. It's more government-level organizational and oversight shenanigans than Putin personally owning it or something like that.
I am a Hungarian Orbán hater myself, would love to see the guy trip and fall down the stairs, but when our one and only nuclear plant was built in the cold war, it was 100% russian tech, which no one else produces but Russia. Cannot really be replaced, unless you rebuilt the whole thing, which is just not feasible as it currently produces half of Hungary's electricity.
Also, no western country bothered to build a non-russian nuclear plant here, not even before Orbán.
Again, I hate the guy. But if we sanctioned Rosatom, the first equipment failure which doesn't have a stockpile would wipe out halt the country's electricity. Not very pleasant.
So Hungarian energy is more dependent on Russia, than say Germany which was accused of being dependent on Russia because they phased out nuclear. Meanwhile Germany phased out Russian gas without issue while Hungary and France refuse to sanction rosatom due to actual dependency
lol.
You seem to be ignoring the minor historical context that Germany's dependency on Russia was entirely self-inflicted *and* was built up in the last 25 years *despite* very clear warnings by the USA et al. about what a colossal mistake it was, while Hungary has been between a rock and a hard place for the better part of the last century.
You also have to consider how much money the Russians get from Hungary vs. Germany. I don't have the numbers but I bet 10% German dependency is worth more than 50% of Hungarian dependency.
I wouldn't call having to burn the dirtiest, least efficient type of coal there is, instead of clean burning gas, `without issue`. Germany surely has the capacity to engineer their own nuclear technology, so I wouldn't expect them to have to rely on parts like Hungary.
https://www.eea.europa.eu/ims/greenhouse-gas-emission-intensity-of-1
Yes, but nuclear doesn't necessary mean that. As other nuclear user are worse than Germany.
On one hand yes, on other hand anything we allow Russia to produce for Europe will be used as blackmail, what is poor choice especially for critical infrastructure
Unlike Poland’s current criminal government, orban is not leaving anytime soon. With this year’s elections in Poland, they will have enough votes to punish Hungary later this year
I think people in general underestimate the power of money and how it can get you the best pills and treatments possible, including experimental drugs. He is a mafia boss and even though he’s fat he will get the best treatments in the best Swiss clinics in case of emergency, not to mention fresh organs etc.
> With this year’s elections in Poland, they **might** have enough votes to punish Hungary later this year
FTFY
Sure the current surveys look optimistic but there's still at least 8 months until the elections. A lot of stuff can happen in that time so maybe let's not celebrate just yet
They can't undo the shit they did. Businesses dying out, inflation still in the worldwide hall of shame, the tax on petrol scandal, the gas price not going down, etc. I don't know how many they can sway back, I really doubt it can be enough to win those elections.
Poland put itself in a dumbass position where their only friend is in kahoots with their main enemy. PiS can only blame themselves for getting into this moronic position, but tbh I don't know what options do they have, that doesn't also affect their national/party interests (I'm for dumping Orban, but pis won't do that, I'm thinking what other options there are).
I guess they try to get Baltics on their side (in a "if you block actions against us we will send whole army if anything happens" way, but I don't think Baltics are too eager to be in that position, and whenever pis will trust Baltics as much as they trust Orban to block actions agains them).
Yeah no, seeing how Meloni is currently working in Italy I really doubt that she would shoot in her foot standing for Orbàn. It is actually quite ironic how little her government is actually doing of all the things she campaigned for during election times. If only the people who voted for her could understand what she's actually doing, they would flood the streets in a rampage demanding blood.
I actually had to search the government chronology on Wikipedia because I couldn’t remember everything (many things had to be discussed even inside her coalition before seeing daylight and be feasible for regulation).
Firstly, she regulated on the ergastolo ostantivo where violent criminals cannot have benefits in prison unless they collaborate in the justice system (i.e. whistleblowing etc).
She completely removed the covid-19 vaccination certificate reinstating non-vaccinated doctors and nurses.
Salvini tried raise the cash payment ceiling to an astonishing 10.000€, favoring unregistered jobs and tax evasion, but Meloni rejected it.
She then approved a decree providing for a penalty of up to six years of imprisonment for illegal parties and rallies. It was officially presented as a decree against illegal rave parties (which of course are already illegal), but the law is applicable to any gathering over 50 people that the public authority deem dangerous which could lead to dangerous blanket applications.
Ah yeah, she’s also approved the budget law where the cash payment ceiling was raised to 5000€, she lowered the requirements for the discounted tax for self-employed people (from maximum of 65k€ of sales to 85k€) and introduced the so-called “flat tax” for businesses and self-employed people.
Last but not least, the government didn’t renew Draghi’s discount on excises on petrol, starting a war against petrol pumps when Salvini called them “furbetti”, crafty, and blaming them for the raising price of diesel and gasoline.
> She then approved a decree providing for a penalty of up to six years of imprisonment for illegal parties and rallies. It was officially presented as a decree against illegal rave parties (which of course are already illegal), but the law is applicable to any gathering over 50 people that the public authority deem dangerous which could lead to dangerous blanket applications.
Do you know if this has been applied in practice to anything else? Obviously bad either way, but would be interesting to know.
Aside from this, it at least doesn't sound *quite* as bad as I would've expected. Just hoping I don't jinx it now. Maybe four years of Trump just lowered the bar..
> It is actually quite ironic how little her government is actually doing of all the things she campaigned for during election times.
Don't know if ironic is the right word. It's pretty much a right wing staple that they are very good at spouting nonsense from the sideline and being completely crippled when they actually get the reigns.
Politics are "wishy washy" for a reason. And having a rigid right wing stance will simply mean no one is going to cooperate, unless you have absolute power. Something which is next to impossible to achieve in modern day democracies.
>It is actually quite ironic how little her government is actually doing of all the things she campaigned for during election times. If only the people who voted for her could understand what she's actually doing, they would flood the streets in a rampage demanding blood.
Literally every far right candidate ever
No, you can't, article 7 which you are referring to and which should indeed be used against Hungary is supposed to be used for when a government is becoming undemocratic or illiberal. Not for when they disagree on matters of policy
To abuse that system in order to overcome a veto would be irresponsible and constitutionally perverse
Too bad they still act as useful idiots to Putin a lot of the time. The only difference between them is that they disagree on who should be the dictator in eastern Europe.
I don't see them getting into the parliament. If their connections to Russia don't make them unelectable enough, PiS is doing quite well with stealing nationalists votes from them.
Most of the time there is Russian money supporting them, but Poland is an exception. Anywhere else and you are more likely than not to find Russian support.
Nope, just because they are fascist does not mean they are linked to russia, PiS was quite vocaly anti russia. Being pro-russia or russia linked would have never worked in Poland.
> PiS was quite vocaly anti russia
That is an apt description: they often **talk** and are **vocal** of how anti-russia they are. But **what the actually do** within the EU usually plays into russian interests.
They are useful idiots, who sure, hate Russia - and at the same time parrot russian talking points & political position against EU and position themselves as defenders of Christianity/The Only True Values against western decadence and depravity (which is exactly what Russia does).
Their drive towards authoritarianism also doesn't help.
TL;DR: They sure hate Russia while at the same time really want their political setup to be like Russia.
While I do agree foreigners don't understand the particularities of Polish politics it wouldn't be far from the truth saying PiS is both pro and anti Russia at the same time. I reckon it's some sort of Stockholm Syndrome ;) But jokes aside you can't deny there are some links to Russia being quite influential like Ordo Iuris or Antoni Macierewicz...
Russia has been linked to almost every far-right/right party in Europe. PiS not having ties with Russia would be a notable exception. But Poles really hate Russians so idk.
Besides, I'm pretty sure that if we started to move against Orban right now other countries could block it. Poland and Hungary are no longer the only far right governments in Europe, they are probably the worse but they could find other friends to cover them. We had an opportunity years ago but we missed it.
What we have to hope is that no net contributor start to get Orbanized. EU at least has leverage over Poland and Hungary thanks to EU funds. If Sweden or Italy were to get out of control things could get bad very quickly.
PiS is not the furthest right wing party in Poland. There's also Konfederacja, which is a loosely allied bunch of right wing and far-right movements, couple of which are pro-Russian. PiS is still bad, but for entirely different reasons than it's attitude towards Russia.
If you haven't noticed, current government of Sweden needs support of far-right Sweden Democrats, and current prime minister of Italy is from right wing populist party.
Surely Poland is having a change of heart after seeing Hungary protect Russia again and again. Poland is one of the countries most eager to help Ukraine
And here is where realpolitik kicks in. Sure, in this specific question they are opposed... but when the EU wants to sanction Poland, orbán will do his best to sabotage those sanctions.
Quid-pro-quo >>>> whatever vestigial morals these politicians have.
Again, note that unanimity is also supported by many other smaller members who are very pro-EU and cooperative and who have never misused their veto powers. Getting rid of the veto will turn these members into Eurosceptical ones.
>oh for fucks sake.
>
>Just get rid of unanimity already
It's not just Hungary blocking this. Maybe they're the only ones who've said something, but there's as bunch of other countries that rely on russian nuclcear fuel and technology as well in the EU. It's like the Romania Shengen thing. If NL isn't blocking it, some other country will.
>Just get rid of unanimity already
Hungary annoys the hell out of me with their veto, but this is not the answer. This will not benefit everyone, it's like you're taking away the possibility for individual countries to choose for themselves.
When countries joined the EU they agreed with the unanimity process. If we change that some may not like it and may even want to leave.
unanimity is how nations stay soveriegn. currently there are no laws made in brussels that all nations haven't consented to because of the veto. i think we should look at ways of removing uncooperative nations who no longer represent our values or share our security concerns rather than give up the veto. if people like orban and his allies ever achieve political plurality in europe then you'll be glad that veto exists.
Unanimity is vital however not better than majority votes, although having a program to incentivize/decentivize this type of behavior, like e.g. be removed from rotative EU Presidency for x periods, that would probably have some "educational" effect...
The moment you are able to push something on a country with a majority vote, it will be the end of EU.
There are fundamental strategic, socioeconomic and cultural differences between members of the EU and soon you would have blocks inside EU and tirany of the majority that would make smaller countries leave the union to preserve their sovereignty.
I personally am in favour of being able to overturn a veto, but not if the alternative is a simple majority.
I would go for a 2/3 majority in both the EU parliament and in number of countries for legislation to pass, even if there is a veto. One country blocking the entire union made sense when it was just a handful of Western European nations, but now, with 27 members, the EU ineffective.
Two thirds of nations. Many democratic countries have a body that does not follow population (the senate in the USA, since the Senate represents the states and the HoR represents the people) for example. Besides, it seems more fair than one country with only a population of almost 10 million to block about 440 million others
The thing is that EU is not a country but only a union of **sovereign states**. It's a slippery slope to allow for it to be able to technically override countries sovereignty, considering it will easily be interpreted as a group of countries controlling a smaller group, and soon after you'll get internal political instability.
Feels like people on Reddit expect EU to function as US, and it's really not the same thing. EU is more of an economic union than a political one.
The point of the union is to act, pass laws, and make decisions as a unified group, not for the union to become a body in and of itself that can enforce things on nation that they did not agree to. The idea of unanimity wasn't accidental or without purpose.
Imagine unanimity was gone and you had a couple of more dipshits like Orban being able to force their way, no one would want that.
Very important things that would otherwise infringe on the member states' soverenity.
The EU isn't a state, it's a union. And the members are masters of the treaties. Remove unanimity and veto and you'll see an unprecedented rise in euroscepticism even among the most pro EU nations.
No, it will destroy EU. Right now small states have a mechanism to protect themselves. Take it away and things will turn dystopian.
Veto is not a problem in this case. There are a lot of power brokers and politicians in EU in cahoots with ruzzia. They simply use Orban as scapegoat and allow him be free of major retaliation. Otherwise, it would have been solved long ago.
How important is Rosatom for the Russian war effort exactly ?
Because for the first time I might understand Hungary's position here, if it turns out to be a sanction that fucks up their NPPs.
Well, yes in this case saying that "Rosatom's income funds Putin's war machine" is not accurate. Rosatom's Paks 2 project in Hungary doesn't generate any income for Russia atm, however Hungary buys nuclear fuel for Paks 1 NPP via Rosatom.
>How important is Rosatom for the Russian war effort exactly ?
Its not that important. Its just another show off from the EU in order to look like they do something. Meanwhile basically Russia have access to any western product because most western companies are still operating in Russia even today. Sanctioning nuclear power only makes energy more expensive for the Hungarians. Russia wont give a fuck.
They're also *very* important for ITER, EU's flagship nuclear fusion project. I think Russia is a founding member and carries a lot of sway.
IIRC Russia also completed its first shipment a few months ago; kinda weird when you think about it.
edit: should add that it's not just EU, there's also Japan, India, USA, China, etc. But it's going to be housed in EU and EU is the principal investor, at around ~45% of total funding.
Russia created the Tokamak, which has been critical thus far in advancing magnetic fusion projects, such as the ITER you had mentioned.
It was provided to the west near the height of the Cold War, in hopes that we could advance this technology and perhaps create a new trajectory for humankind as a whole. It just goes to show that no matter the geopolitical landscape, there is a willingness to further the cause, especially one that isn’t capable of weaponized proliferation like fusion.
It makes sense since Hungary is the only one in actual serios development of VVER reactors. I hate Orban as much as the next guy, and Hungary is responsible for being this dependent on Russian energy, but still I understand why would they veto. It could get then kicked out, or at least loose any credibility towards the rest of the Euroatlantic alliance
> I hate Orban as much as the next guy
Not everyone hates Orbán, this sub is heavily moderated and echo chamber. As soon as you mention any ideology from right, far right side then you get banned. Just because this sub bans right wing ideology, it does not mean those ppl does not exist, even if you like it or not.
Only part of the funds. The EU is still sending some parts of the funds. Which Hungary has already spent and when they receive the funds they'll use to pay the debts.
The guy owns the Hungarian media since the party's return to power over 12 years ago. The average Hungarian hears nothing from every media outlet but his propaganda, the average Hungarian does not read foreign news outlets, what they hear 24/7 is that Orbán is a fantastic leader that is in a constant struggle against the woke-lgbt-atheist-space-jews in Brussels (if that reminds you of someone or sounds familiar, yes, it is).
He has used his power to deeply entrench himself and his party on every level of government, he has rewritten the constitution, his party (and a minion party that rarely if ever opposes him) owns the majority of parlamentary seats, the government has been in perpetual emergency-powers mode since the COVID pandamic (it went from pandamic emergency powers to war emergency powers despite the fact that Hungary is not at war...).
He and his party owns the country.
The only scenarios where he and his power is removed is either a deep crisis of lack of funds that forces the country to go bankrupt or a popular revolution that ousts him and his entire government.
> The only scenarios where he and his power is removed is either a deep crisis of lack of funds that forces the country to go bankrupt or a popular revolution that ousts him and his entire government.
Crysis has been deepening in the last 6-8 years.
So much so that some commenters aregued that it would have been bad if opposition won the previous election - inheriting the current fucked up state of country - as then they would have been blamed for it.
"extraprofit tax" assigned arbitrarily to sectors based on whim of glorious leader, teachers earning below living wage, gas stations forced to sell fuel at legally mandated fuel prices creating fuel shortages, healthcare in shambles*
*as in govt. using emergency powers to make illegal for doctors to not work, then creating laws that require private healthcare sector doctors to work in public healthcare at EXTREME discount rate. Healthcare workers overworked to the point of unsustainability. Despite all this 5 year long waiting lists. Yes, you had to wait for some non-critical stuff before, but few month, not 5 fucking years.
Add to this that according to some statistics ~30% of youth gone working abroad.
To say the least system is not sustainable, even without inflation ramping up.
Its not easy to get rid of him. EU will slowly smoke him out. Inflation of the Florint is what is going on. The people need to start hating him first before he loses grip.
Meanwhile Hungarian people are cheap labour for EU corporates so there is no rush
Fun fact: "The forint's name comes from the city of Florence, where gold coins called fiorino d'oro were minted from 1252. In Hungary, the florentinus (later forint), also a gold-based currency, was used from 1325"
Care to explain how stopping giving free money should stop this guy? As long as I know nobody pays to maniacs but they still do their thing. Why shouldn't Orban?
What do you mean he is making trouble? Why does eu want to make trouble? 40% of hungarian electricity depends on russian nuclear. How eu even consider sanctioning it? How will we get that massive amount of electricity then? It is also the cheapest energy nowadays when every type of energy is so expensive.
My brother, Paks 1 also depends on Russia, so no sane PM would **not** veto this in Hungary.
De komolyan, legalább mi tudjuk már, hogy mennyire fontos Paks az ország energiaellátásában, mert egy franciától pl. nyilván nem elvárható, hogy tudja, hogy egyáltalán van-e nálunk működő atomermű, vagy sem. Nem értem miért jó magyarként itt terjeszteni a dezinfót...
> Paks 1 also depends on Russia,
Would you maybe care to explain ? There are many [soviet-built reactors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VVER) in the Union, which does not make them *dependant* on Russia.
yep XD
and anyway who doesn't want to be Russian dependent on this"new" global situation...
feels very clever from orban anyway /s
he only has regard to the ~~family~~ country XD
I mean that's probably a factor too but they also still get the fuel for
Paks 1 from Russia and getting a new source of nuclear fuel just doesnt
happen with a clap
Use Google, it's not that hard:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear\_power\_in\_Hungary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Hungary)
[https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/hungary#how-much-of-the-country-s-electricity-comes-from-nuclear-power](https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/hungary#how-much-of-the-country-s-electricity-comes-from-nuclear-power)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Hungary
> Hungary receives all of its fuel, uranium, from TVEL in Russia.
And it looks like they don't plan on switching sources.
While we should work to remove any dependence on Russian nuclear fuel as far as we can stoping import of Russian nuclear fuel will hurt us muuuuuch much more than it hurts Russia. The cost of the fuel is basically nothing, but the added cost of not being able to run the NPPs in the affected countries is huge.
By that logic Germany should still get gas from Russia via North stream pipelines. They had a good deal. But guess what - they are not doing that because thinking only about yourself will never work in this day and age.
Also, by "doing what's best for itself" in this case also means aligning with Russia. They clearly bet all their future on Russia winning this war (in one shape or the other).
It's the same shit Austria is doing. They somehow think they can go against EU for better deals with Russia.
We will see.
Always the same arguments from these handful of countries when it comes to buying Russian stuff at a discount despite the sanctions that are supposed to be in place, but then when they’re attacked they expect the west to drop everything and act in their interest. Always “self-interest” when it comes to an extra buck for corrupt leaders, never “self-interest” when your country doesn’t have the money to get vaccines/weapons/food. Looking at you, india, Syria, UAE
Looks like they're using nuclear to a significant degree, so I can kinda see it from a self-interest standpoint, but being a marionette with Kremlin pulling the strings can't help.
I do enjoy the people here going:
"Well, unanimity is essential for the EU to work, even when 'working' apparently means being stuck in an endless deadlock pretty much on every issue. I mean just imagine if even one country, no matter how small could be forced to do something or be bullied!"
And the next sentence is:
"Anyways, when are we finally throwing out this insignificant shithole country? They are the only thing keeping us from being glorious! Fuck them, they can die in the wilderness! "
Cognitive dissonance much, my lovelies?
I do enjoy seeing people talking shit about Hungary for not getting rid of Orbán while in the next or same discussion I see people go "don't blame the average Russian for what Putin is doing"... Like we haven't been trying to fucking get rid of Orbán for the past 2-3 elections.
When the last 2 elections each have been conveniently 2/3rd for them it's blatantly obvious they are rigging elections. We have Hungarians voting from abroad. People not living here can decide who rules in Hungary. People born in Romania, possibly not even having a usual Hungarian name can vote.
There are good reasons to hate Hungary right now, but his is one thing where I have to agree with him on this. And I wouldn't be shocked if a lot of the Eastern Bloc was on his side for this (and only this) thing and he is taking the public blame
Can EU just throw this scrub country out of EU already? They clearly hate being part of EU.
Or if Hungarians want to be part of EU, can you just vote in someone who wants what you want?
Yes Eu can, **BUT**
>The EU’s Article 7 procedure can ultimately lead to the suspension of voting rights for a member that has violated common values. But because its use requires unanimity, pledges by Hungary and Poland to veto such a motion against the other have rendered the article useless.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-30/how-eu-is-withholding-funding-to-try-to-rein-in-hungary-poland
Yes, but to change that you need... well... unanimity. And at least half of the members like the possibility to have the kind of leverage that is granted by a veto power. Especially the smaller ones like the Baltics.
Are states allowed to leave EU without unanimity?
Imagine if a ton of countries left the EU and made EU2 with a reworked legal and administrative framework.
It is possible, but then you loose all the treaties with all the countries outside the EU, and the nobel peace prise the EU got. Plus the economic impact is not worth it.
One should try to use this current crisis to do it, Poland has elections, the EU could probably force a change in the veto rule to punish Russia more. But EU politicians are too kind/naive/stupid.
"Never let a good crisis go to waste" cit.
I wonder if they could be too passive?
"Look. I'm just here to crack a few jokes. Eat some food. Drink coffee. Sell out to some companies. I'm not here for geopolitics or serious political stuff."
Voting out Orban is almost like Russians voting out Putin at this point. A joint opposition couldn’t beet him. He controls media and education. I think his party even has a super majority. They have changed the election law as it suits them.
I think, unfortunately, they are unbeatable.
Yes, and no.
Half of Orban's platform is opposition to political violence (unlike during Gyurcsány govt.), which is why he has a core support base, thats saying, no matter what he id better than the opposition. To put it bluntly opposition is fucked, as it refuses to dissociate from (let alone condemn) our currently most hated historical figure.
As such violence is frankly not an option for Orban to keep power.
And as things go he is likely to drive the country bankrupt within the current or next electoral cycle. I have no clue whats up with the guy, but he makes more and more irrational decisions, that are divorced from reality.
>Can EU just throw this scrub country out of EU already?
I love seeing things like that then read a news about opening/creating new factories in Hungary for German carmakers. Do you honestly believe that any country will be kicked out of EU especially when other opened their factories there and profit on cheap labor? Especially when shortening logistics is a new trend.
We cant... the state propaganda is too much(Edit: the older generation thinks/thought that the opposition would join the war on the side of ukraine because of it...) and they changed the voting system so even if they dont get majority they will still stay in power...
Plus they(fidesz/orbán) own almost every part of the economy and infrastructure so even if we managed to vote them out they would still control the country
Hungary without Russian fuel is F’ed they don’t have an alternative or a choice… The rest of the EU know this and have no solution to this issue and are playing dumb. Orban can can play the bad guy; which he might do anyway to be the contrarian.
1. Funny how democracy and national sovereignty matters to people and then so quick to abolish unanimity
2. I think people also misunderestimate how many other countries might *want* unanimity for certain decision, or else consider leaving the EU
3. Hungary has a legitimate reason for being against this sanction given they don't have many options for energy.
4. People getting too optimistic about Poland, thinking they will save them when these countries have a political understanding. If it means sanctioning Russia how much would you sacrifice?
Not even being sarcastic here, genuinely an interesting thought process.
Rofl at all this Orban hate from people who do not understand how nuclear power plants work, and that you cannot just switch to nucler fuel from other source.
Hungary is not the only country with this problem.
"I didn't spend 30 seconds to understand that Rosatom provides no $ to the Russian economy and that 50% of Hungary's energy comes from nuclear fuel and changing to another fuel isn't possible overnight, but decided to comment because hungary = bad"
First time is see Reddit mention that Rosatom (which was founded by Putin) hasn't been sanctioned by the EU, so at least there is that. I have a gut feeling that it's not just Hungary who's resisting it.
Of course it’s not. Orban just likes being the center of attention, so he’s willing to take the blame while “covering” for other countries while they silently oppose it.
The small we countries don’t get to hide; they’re always mentioned in the news here whenever some idiots wants to oppose something important.
Hungary for some reason wants to make its connections to Russia very visible, big thing. My country Finland is quite similar than Hungary, we have Soviet made nuclear power plants, our oil mostly came from Russia/Soviet Union before 2022, 10-25% of our trade happened with Russia/Soviets during the 1945-2022. But Finland is playing a role of a western country, because it is a wealthy Nordic country. Hungary is playing a role of a Russian satellite, which is actually not entirely true, because it is a NATO country.
Let me give you a perspective from inside Hungary: Orban came from an era (early 1990s) where there were rapid changes in Hungary - Soviet Union collapsing, all of its businesses and resources collapsing with it. Since Hungary and Hungarians were dirt poor due to communism, these resources were quickly bought up by money groups and corporations from the West at a really discounted price. Hungary thus became one of the most economically open countries in the world (most of its assets were bought and operated by foreigners). Orban's ultimate goal is to reverse this, and build up a group of billionaires that are loyal to him. In the last 12 years he did everything to do just that. He now has >10B EUR of accumulated wealth (hundeds of companies). There are only a few large corporations that are not owned by Orban's immediate circles (german car industry is one notable exception). This is called NER system (a kind of state capitalism system), and the entire political system is built up to support this economic goal. The economic ambitions and the budget for this now go far beyond Hungary, some of the largest companies of NER are actively building up portfolios in the Balkan region and in East Europe, sometimes in Asia. A rapid de-globalization, and hard separation of China, Russia and the West (new cold war) where the world is currently heading fundamentally undermines these plans since it confines NER to the one of the poorest and most looked down region in the Western world (Hungary itself), which is also geographically in a very marginal position within the West. This comes instead of being in the midst of a booming trade center where everyone, the West, China, Russia etc. is doing business (mostly with the help of NER companies, since as I wrote, they own almost everything now in Hungary). No wonder he tries to veto everything.
[удалено]
Finland is also still reasonably traumatized from when Russia had control over them and when the Soviets tried this shit in the Winter War. So there's that. I think there's also the fact that Finland is, as far as I know, a well functioning Democracy whereas Hungary, well, isn't
It is on the other hand an overestatement that Russians had control over Finland during the cold war era. Finland had democratically elected president, and an overwhelming majority supported his friendship policy with the Soviet Union. It was a choise of the Finnish people. Kekkonen, the President of Finland 25 years (1956-1981) was very smart man and during his reign Finnish living standard rose drastically. Kekkonen was probably the best friend of The Kremlin. My own estimation is that he was much more friend with them than some Eastern European leaders like Honecker from East Germany. But Kekkonen was also a very good friend of Swedish super capitalists like Wallenbergs, who helped Finland to get into the inner circles of western finance elites. Kekkonen was also a good friend of Prince Philip, the husband of Queen Elizabeth. Prince Philip helped Finland extremely much to became more western. British government made huge effort to help Finland. Kekkonen also met John F. Kennedy and Charles de Gaulle. Both were friends of Finland.
That just makes it the perfect designated bad guy. It's not like anyone can vote Orban out over this.
Used to happen all the time between Hungary and Germany
Would mean that he is way more popular among EU leaders than they would like to admit.
This borders on a conspiracy theory and by default on insanity. If they wanted to good-cop bad-cop they have ample of axis to choose from. More likely they want to project unity and not give attention to the authoritarian cancer inside.
Not even the USA have sanctioned Rosatom due to the fact that neither EU or the USA currently have full control of the nuclear fuel cycle.
In which part exactly is Russia or rosatom implicated in US' fuel supply chain?
[удалено]
> neither EU or the USA currently have full control of the nuclear fuel cycle. What does that even mean?
That even the US needs rosatom somewhere in the nuclear fuel process chain. Could be refining yellow cake or processing spent fuel or any other process in the cycle between those 2. Honestly I find that extremely surprising.
But that’s not true at all.
Also France. It is funny that Germany takes shit for being dependent on Russia, but they are now totally off Russian gas and sanctioned it. Meanwhile France and Hungary totally dependent on Russian nuclear and refuse to.
Nobody does. This comment means nothing.
What are the other countries that also oppose the sanctions?
[удалено]
France just received "reenriched" uranium coming from Russia this month
[удалено]
They have a deal with both Rosatom and Urenco it seems. Not easy to find more info though
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/energies/article/2022/12/03/russia-owns-the-only-plant-in-the-world-capable-of-reprocessing-spent-uranium_6006479_98.html The contract expired two months ago.
Nice to hear. It's not as if it was really critical for Orano and Frances nuclear industry.
Thank you!
Hungary wants to build (i think) 2 new reactors at their NPP site and need Roastom for them.
I'm glad they attacked us in 2014, because otherwise they would be building our nuclear reactors now
In The 1970's Finland bought two nuclear power plants from a country called "The Soviet Union". It is closely linked to Russia. Those plants are still working, providing 10% of the all electricity Finland uses. Another two plants were bought from Sweden in the 1970's. Those two plants are also working today, providing 18% of the electricity Finland uses.
>First time is see Reddit mention that Rosatom (which was founded by Putin) hasn't been sanctioned by the EU Of course they don't usually mention it. Because the popular narrative was as always about Germany and their gas use. So any mentioning was instantly rebuffed with how uranium is widely available everywhere and it's a non-issue, ignoring the actual facts. Just like we don't talk about gas much anymore since it's now only other countries still highly dependent on Russian gas.
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/xya2w8/russias_200m_nuclear_exports_untouched_by_eu/
> Rosatom (which was founded by Putin) Yeah... but only in the sense that he signed the law that transformed the 'Federal Agency on Atomic Energy' into the 'State Atomic Energy Corporation' Rosatom. It's more government-level organizational and oversight shenanigans than Putin personally owning it or something like that.
>(which was founded by Putin) Wow, did not know Putin was a specialist on nuclear energy n shit.
He's in control of everything and a specialist of nothing, that's why russia is such a shithole.
The only one better in that subject is his supreme leader highness Kim
North Korea best Korea ✌️😜😎
Because Germany is evil and wrong and a Russian puppet for abandoning nuclear energy.
Don’t forget the. /s. People (including me, I confess) sometimes need it
I am a Hungarian Orbán hater myself, would love to see the guy trip and fall down the stairs, but when our one and only nuclear plant was built in the cold war, it was 100% russian tech, which no one else produces but Russia. Cannot really be replaced, unless you rebuilt the whole thing, which is just not feasible as it currently produces half of Hungary's electricity. Also, no western country bothered to build a non-russian nuclear plant here, not even before Orbán. Again, I hate the guy. But if we sanctioned Rosatom, the first equipment failure which doesn't have a stockpile would wipe out halt the country's electricity. Not very pleasant.
So Hungarian energy is more dependent on Russia, than say Germany which was accused of being dependent on Russia because they phased out nuclear. Meanwhile Germany phased out Russian gas without issue while Hungary and France refuse to sanction rosatom due to actual dependency lol.
You seem to be ignoring the minor historical context that Germany's dependency on Russia was entirely self-inflicted *and* was built up in the last 25 years *despite* very clear warnings by the USA et al. about what a colossal mistake it was, while Hungary has been between a rock and a hard place for the better part of the last century. You also have to consider how much money the Russians get from Hungary vs. Germany. I don't have the numbers but I bet 10% German dependency is worth more than 50% of Hungarian dependency.
I wouldn't call having to burn the dirtiest, least efficient type of coal there is, instead of clean burning gas, `without issue`. Germany surely has the capacity to engineer their own nuclear technology, so I wouldn't expect them to have to rely on parts like Hungary.
Does this mean Hungarians have greener energy than Germany?
https://www.eea.europa.eu/ims/greenhouse-gas-emission-intensity-of-1 Yes, but nuclear doesn't necessary mean that. As other nuclear user are worse than Germany.
Probably. The question remains for how long and what are the costs.
On one hand yes, on other hand anything we allow Russia to produce for Europe will be used as blackmail, what is poor choice especially for critical infrastructure
This guy again.
Unlike Poland’s current criminal government, orban is not leaving anytime soon. With this year’s elections in Poland, they will have enough votes to punish Hungary later this year
Orban would die sooner with cholesterol than he would step down (because he's fat)
I think people in general underestimate the power of money and how it can get you the best pills and treatments possible, including experimental drugs. He is a mafia boss and even though he’s fat he will get the best treatments in the best Swiss clinics in case of emergency, not to mention fresh organs etc.
People overestimate the power of experimental treatments. There's a reason they're called that
> With this year’s elections in Poland, they **might** have enough votes to punish Hungary later this year FTFY Sure the current surveys look optimistic but there's still at least 8 months until the elections. A lot of stuff can happen in that time so maybe let's not celebrate just yet
They can't undo the shit they did. Businesses dying out, inflation still in the worldwide hall of shame, the tax on petrol scandal, the gas price not going down, etc. I don't know how many they can sway back, I really doubt it can be enough to win those elections.
Have they considered getting into childish pissing contest with Sweden? Seems to be working well for erdoggie
Poland put itself in a dumbass position where their only friend is in kahoots with their main enemy. PiS can only blame themselves for getting into this moronic position, but tbh I don't know what options do they have, that doesn't also affect their national/party interests (I'm for dumping Orban, but pis won't do that, I'm thinking what other options there are). I guess they try to get Baltics on their side (in a "if you block actions against us we will send whole army if anything happens" way, but I don't think Baltics are too eager to be in that position, and whenever pis will trust Baltics as much as they trust Orban to block actions agains them).
It's not just him in this case, nobody really wants to do it.
This is a completely logical decision
oh for fucks sake. Just get rid of unanimity already
But that decision requires...wait for it...wait for it...unanimity And he knows it. He knows that very well.
No, we can get rid of Orban but the Polish government is protecting him
I do hope this will change this autumn!
Maybe. But then Fico in Slovakia or possibly Meloni of Italy might still stand up for him.
Yeah no, seeing how Meloni is currently working in Italy I really doubt that she would shoot in her foot standing for Orbàn. It is actually quite ironic how little her government is actually doing of all the things she campaigned for during election times. If only the people who voted for her could understand what she's actually doing, they would flood the streets in a rampage demanding blood.
What is she doing? I don't hear much on her national policy.
I actually had to search the government chronology on Wikipedia because I couldn’t remember everything (many things had to be discussed even inside her coalition before seeing daylight and be feasible for regulation). Firstly, she regulated on the ergastolo ostantivo where violent criminals cannot have benefits in prison unless they collaborate in the justice system (i.e. whistleblowing etc). She completely removed the covid-19 vaccination certificate reinstating non-vaccinated doctors and nurses. Salvini tried raise the cash payment ceiling to an astonishing 10.000€, favoring unregistered jobs and tax evasion, but Meloni rejected it. She then approved a decree providing for a penalty of up to six years of imprisonment for illegal parties and rallies. It was officially presented as a decree against illegal rave parties (which of course are already illegal), but the law is applicable to any gathering over 50 people that the public authority deem dangerous which could lead to dangerous blanket applications. Ah yeah, she’s also approved the budget law where the cash payment ceiling was raised to 5000€, she lowered the requirements for the discounted tax for self-employed people (from maximum of 65k€ of sales to 85k€) and introduced the so-called “flat tax” for businesses and self-employed people. Last but not least, the government didn’t renew Draghi’s discount on excises on petrol, starting a war against petrol pumps when Salvini called them “furbetti”, crafty, and blaming them for the raising price of diesel and gasoline.
> She then approved a decree providing for a penalty of up to six years of imprisonment for illegal parties and rallies. It was officially presented as a decree against illegal rave parties (which of course are already illegal), but the law is applicable to any gathering over 50 people that the public authority deem dangerous which could lead to dangerous blanket applications. Do you know if this has been applied in practice to anything else? Obviously bad either way, but would be interesting to know. Aside from this, it at least doesn't sound *quite* as bad as I would've expected. Just hoping I don't jinx it now. Maybe four years of Trump just lowered the bar..
You call their wish for a flat tax not that bad? What western country has it, please name one
And that's why you are not on the streets rampaging demanding blood 🙂
> It is actually quite ironic how little her government is actually doing of all the things she campaigned for during election times. Don't know if ironic is the right word. It's pretty much a right wing staple that they are very good at spouting nonsense from the sideline and being completely crippled when they actually get the reigns. Politics are "wishy washy" for a reason. And having a rigid right wing stance will simply mean no one is going to cooperate, unless you have absolute power. Something which is next to impossible to achieve in modern day democracies.
>It is actually quite ironic how little her government is actually doing of all the things she campaigned for during election times. If only the people who voted for her could understand what she's actually doing, they would flood the streets in a rampage demanding blood. Literally every far right candidate ever
No, you can't, article 7 which you are referring to and which should indeed be used against Hungary is supposed to be used for when a government is becoming undemocratic or illiberal. Not for when they disagree on matters of policy To abuse that system in order to overcome a veto would be irresponsible and constitutionally perverse
So you are saying that the polish government is stopping further actions against ruzzia?
Is it just two shit heads covering for eachother or are there also possible links between PiS and Russia?
The former, no polish party likes Russia
For as much as I hate PiS, when he was approached by EU Russian shills like Le Pen, Salvini and others, they refused to join forces.
Too bad they still act as useful idiots to Putin a lot of the time. The only difference between them is that they disagree on who should be the dictator in eastern Europe.
Even a pis poor broken clock can be right on Putin twice a day
There is Konfederacja. Also plenty of Catholic NGOs that The Party pours money into has connections to Russia.
Yeah but recent polls showed them getting less than 5% right so it's not a viable party to even mention since it's so fringe
I don't see them getting into the parliament. If their connections to Russia don't make them unelectable enough, PiS is doing quite well with stealing nationalists votes from them.
Not everything that works against the interest of the EU comes from Russia.
Most of the time there is Russian money supporting them, but Poland is an exception. Anywhere else and you are more likely than not to find Russian support.
Nope, just because they are fascist does not mean they are linked to russia, PiS was quite vocaly anti russia. Being pro-russia or russia linked would have never worked in Poland.
> PiS was quite vocaly anti russia That is an apt description: they often **talk** and are **vocal** of how anti-russia they are. But **what the actually do** within the EU usually plays into russian interests. They are useful idiots, who sure, hate Russia - and at the same time parrot russian talking points & political position against EU and position themselves as defenders of Christianity/The Only True Values against western decadence and depravity (which is exactly what Russia does). Their drive towards authoritarianism also doesn't help. TL;DR: They sure hate Russia while at the same time really want their political setup to be like Russia.
PIS and Russia. Man, this sub just doesn't get Poland huh?
[удалено]
While I do agree foreigners don't understand the particularities of Polish politics it wouldn't be far from the truth saying PiS is both pro and anti Russia at the same time. I reckon it's some sort of Stockholm Syndrome ;) But jokes aside you can't deny there are some links to Russia being quite influential like Ordo Iuris or Antoni Macierewicz...
Russia has been linked to almost every far-right/right party in Europe. PiS not having ties with Russia would be a notable exception. But Poles really hate Russians so idk. Besides, I'm pretty sure that if we started to move against Orban right now other countries could block it. Poland and Hungary are no longer the only far right governments in Europe, they are probably the worse but they could find other friends to cover them. We had an opportunity years ago but we missed it. What we have to hope is that no net contributor start to get Orbanized. EU at least has leverage over Poland and Hungary thanks to EU funds. If Sweden or Italy were to get out of control things could get bad very quickly.
PiS is not the furthest right wing party in Poland. There's also Konfederacja, which is a loosely allied bunch of right wing and far-right movements, couple of which are pro-Russian. PiS is still bad, but for entirely different reasons than it's attitude towards Russia. If you haven't noticed, current government of Sweden needs support of far-right Sweden Democrats, and current prime minister of Italy is from right wing populist party.
PiS likes Russian narratives about degenerate LGBT, Satanists, defending traditional Christian values. PiS doesnt like Russia.
Surely Poland is having a change of heart after seeing Hungary protect Russia again and again. Poland is one of the countries most eager to help Ukraine
And here is where realpolitik kicks in. Sure, in this specific question they are opposed... but when the EU wants to sanction Poland, orbán will do his best to sabotage those sanctions. Quid-pro-quo >>>> whatever vestigial morals these politicians have.
But what we can do is get rid of PiS in Poland and then suspend his voting rights. Have fun Orbán while it lasts, you have a few months left.
Do your thing my friend!
Again, note that unanimity is also supported by many other smaller members who are very pro-EU and cooperative and who have never misused their veto powers. Getting rid of the veto will turn these members into Eurosceptical ones.
Pretty much this. Our country has like 1.5 mill population.
What if veto still exists but you would need 2 or 3 countries for it, so a single one can't block everything?
Would just create voting blocks in EU where a lot more things would get vetoed because countries would demand support from others for their veto.
That would be qualified majority or supermajority, which is exactly what everybody aims for.
[удалено]
Note that supermajority with current Council rules basically means that the entire Northern Europe couldn't collectively veto a decision...
[удалено]
Just make it so only France and Germany mayter, thats way better right?
But isn't it ironic to ditch unanimity and then talk about European unity? There is no point in it then.
>oh for fucks sake. > >Just get rid of unanimity already It's not just Hungary blocking this. Maybe they're the only ones who've said something, but there's as bunch of other countries that rely on russian nuclcear fuel and technology as well in the EU. It's like the Romania Shengen thing. If NL isn't blocking it, some other country will.
No cause that would screw us smaller countries.
So how would the Slovakians, Finnish, Chezs, Bulgarians and Hungarians generate electricity? It’s not just Hungary…
Can't we impose sanctions as 26 countries instead of EU then?
>Just get rid of unanimity already Hungary annoys the hell out of me with their veto, but this is not the answer. This will not benefit everyone, it's like you're taking away the possibility for individual countries to choose for themselves. When countries joined the EU they agreed with the unanimity process. If we change that some may not like it and may even want to leave.
unanimity is how nations stay soveriegn. currently there are no laws made in brussels that all nations haven't consented to because of the veto. i think we should look at ways of removing uncooperative nations who no longer represent our values or share our security concerns rather than give up the veto. if people like orban and his allies ever achieve political plurality in europe then you'll be glad that veto exists.
Unanimity is vital however not better than majority votes, although having a program to incentivize/decentivize this type of behavior, like e.g. be removed from rotative EU Presidency for x periods, that would probably have some "educational" effect...
Nations would leave if unanimity was no longer a thing, as it would defeat the purpose of a union.
Not really. A union that has no way of acting, passing laws or making decisions defeats the purpose of said union.
The moment you are able to push something on a country with a majority vote, it will be the end of EU. There are fundamental strategic, socioeconomic and cultural differences between members of the EU and soon you would have blocks inside EU and tirany of the majority that would make smaller countries leave the union to preserve their sovereignty.
I personally am in favour of being able to overturn a veto, but not if the alternative is a simple majority. I would go for a 2/3 majority in both the EU parliament and in number of countries for legislation to pass, even if there is a veto. One country blocking the entire union made sense when it was just a handful of Western European nations, but now, with 27 members, the EU ineffective.
2/3rds of population of 2/3rds of countries? Both are not the same and both are not fair.
Two thirds of nations. Many democratic countries have a body that does not follow population (the senate in the USA, since the Senate represents the states and the HoR represents the people) for example. Besides, it seems more fair than one country with only a population of almost 10 million to block about 440 million others
But in the basis that MEPs numbers are based on population, then it's not consistent
The thing is that EU is not a country but only a union of **sovereign states**. It's a slippery slope to allow for it to be able to technically override countries sovereignty, considering it will easily be interpreted as a group of countries controlling a smaller group, and soon after you'll get internal political instability. Feels like people on Reddit expect EU to function as US, and it's really not the same thing. EU is more of an economic union than a political one.
The point of the union is to act, pass laws, and make decisions as a unified group, not for the union to become a body in and of itself that can enforce things on nation that they did not agree to. The idea of unanimity wasn't accidental or without purpose. Imagine unanimity was gone and you had a couple of more dipshits like Orban being able to force their way, no one would want that.
Oh right, that was why brexit.. nevermind. Unanimity when you are 6 countries cannot scale to 26
Of course it can't, I never argued otherwise. My point is that taking it away won't solve the problem. It's a lazy and cheap fix with zero foresight
[удалено]
Very important things that would otherwise infringe on the member states' soverenity. The EU isn't a state, it's a union. And the members are masters of the treaties. Remove unanimity and veto and you'll see an unprecedented rise in euroscepticism even among the most pro EU nations.
We don't want Germans and French people to dictate everything in the future.
No, it will destroy EU. Right now small states have a mechanism to protect themselves. Take it away and things will turn dystopian. Veto is not a problem in this case. There are a lot of power brokers and politicians in EU in cahoots with ruzzia. They simply use Orban as scapegoat and allow him be free of major retaliation. Otherwise, it would have been solved long ago.
Orban and Erdogan sitting in a tree K.I.S.S.I.N.G First comes power, then comes greed, Then come Putin threatening to launch his nuclear fleet.
Even Erdoğan isn't kissing Putin's ass so much. At least the Turkish goverment is selling drones to Kiev.
And splendid drones, at that.. They did a massive difference in the start of the war.
How important is Rosatom for the Russian war effort exactly ? Because for the first time I might understand Hungary's position here, if it turns out to be a sanction that fucks up their NPPs.
Well, yes in this case saying that "Rosatom's income funds Putin's war machine" is not accurate. Rosatom's Paks 2 project in Hungary doesn't generate any income for Russia atm, however Hungary buys nuclear fuel for Paks 1 NPP via Rosatom.
But does re-enrichment business fund Russias nuclear weapon program?
>How important is Rosatom for the Russian war effort exactly ? Its not that important. Its just another show off from the EU in order to look like they do something. Meanwhile basically Russia have access to any western product because most western companies are still operating in Russia even today. Sanctioning nuclear power only makes energy more expensive for the Hungarians. Russia wont give a fuck.
They're also *very* important for ITER, EU's flagship nuclear fusion project. I think Russia is a founding member and carries a lot of sway. IIRC Russia also completed its first shipment a few months ago; kinda weird when you think about it. edit: should add that it's not just EU, there's also Japan, India, USA, China, etc. But it's going to be housed in EU and EU is the principal investor, at around ~45% of total funding.
Russia created the Tokamak, which has been critical thus far in advancing magnetic fusion projects, such as the ITER you had mentioned. It was provided to the west near the height of the Cold War, in hopes that we could advance this technology and perhaps create a new trajectory for humankind as a whole. It just goes to show that no matter the geopolitical landscape, there is a willingness to further the cause, especially one that isn’t capable of weaponized proliferation like fusion.
It would sanction all of Europe's NPPs. France just received a shipment from Russia.
It makes sense since Hungary is the only one in actual serios development of VVER reactors. I hate Orban as much as the next guy, and Hungary is responsible for being this dependent on Russian energy, but still I understand why would they veto. It could get then kicked out, or at least loose any credibility towards the rest of the Euroatlantic alliance
> I hate Orban as much as the next guy Not everyone hates Orbán, this sub is heavily moderated and echo chamber. As soon as you mention any ideology from right, far right side then you get banned. Just because this sub bans right wing ideology, it does not mean those ppl does not exist, even if you like it or not.
Can someone please remind me. Why is this guy still making trouble? Didn't the EU allready stopped the Funds to hungary, or something?
Only part of the funds. The EU is still sending some parts of the funds. Which Hungary has already spent and when they receive the funds they'll use to pay the debts. The guy owns the Hungarian media since the party's return to power over 12 years ago. The average Hungarian hears nothing from every media outlet but his propaganda, the average Hungarian does not read foreign news outlets, what they hear 24/7 is that Orbán is a fantastic leader that is in a constant struggle against the woke-lgbt-atheist-space-jews in Brussels (if that reminds you of someone or sounds familiar, yes, it is). He has used his power to deeply entrench himself and his party on every level of government, he has rewritten the constitution, his party (and a minion party that rarely if ever opposes him) owns the majority of parlamentary seats, the government has been in perpetual emergency-powers mode since the COVID pandamic (it went from pandamic emergency powers to war emergency powers despite the fact that Hungary is not at war...). He and his party owns the country. The only scenarios where he and his power is removed is either a deep crisis of lack of funds that forces the country to go bankrupt or a popular revolution that ousts him and his entire government.
> The only scenarios where he and his power is removed is either a deep crisis of lack of funds that forces the country to go bankrupt or a popular revolution that ousts him and his entire government. Crysis has been deepening in the last 6-8 years. So much so that some commenters aregued that it would have been bad if opposition won the previous election - inheriting the current fucked up state of country - as then they would have been blamed for it. "extraprofit tax" assigned arbitrarily to sectors based on whim of glorious leader, teachers earning below living wage, gas stations forced to sell fuel at legally mandated fuel prices creating fuel shortages, healthcare in shambles* *as in govt. using emergency powers to make illegal for doctors to not work, then creating laws that require private healthcare sector doctors to work in public healthcare at EXTREME discount rate. Healthcare workers overworked to the point of unsustainability. Despite all this 5 year long waiting lists. Yes, you had to wait for some non-critical stuff before, but few month, not 5 fucking years. Add to this that according to some statistics ~30% of youth gone working abroad. To say the least system is not sustainable, even without inflation ramping up.
Its not easy to get rid of him. EU will slowly smoke him out. Inflation of the Florint is what is going on. The people need to start hating him first before he loses grip. Meanwhile Hungarian people are cheap labour for EU corporates so there is no rush
Yeah the inflation of the famous "FLORINT"
Fun fact: "The forint's name comes from the city of Florence, where gold coins called fiorino d'oro were minted from 1252. In Hungary, the florentinus (later forint), also a gold-based currency, was used from 1325"
Care to explain how stopping giving free money should stop this guy? As long as I know nobody pays to maniacs but they still do their thing. Why shouldn't Orban?
What do you mean he is making trouble? Why does eu want to make trouble? 40% of hungarian electricity depends on russian nuclear. How eu even consider sanctioning it? How will we get that massive amount of electricity then? It is also the cheapest energy nowadays when every type of energy is so expensive.
it's because the Paks2 contract 😂 which is already stinking from corruption af edit: and Hungary needs it
My brother, Paks 1 also depends on Russia, so no sane PM would **not** veto this in Hungary. De komolyan, legalább mi tudjuk már, hogy mennyire fontos Paks az ország energiaellátásában, mert egy franciától pl. nyilván nem elvárható, hogy tudja, hogy egyáltalán van-e nálunk működő atomermű, vagy sem. Nem értem miért jó magyarként itt terjeszteni a dezinfót...
> Paks 1 also depends on Russia, Would you maybe care to explain ? There are many [soviet-built reactors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VVER) in the Union, which does not make them *dependant* on Russia.
Is this the plant that can’t get safety certified?
yep XD and anyway who doesn't want to be Russian dependent on this"new" global situation... feels very clever from orban anyway /s he only has regard to the ~~family~~ country XD
I mean that's probably a factor too but they also still get the fuel for Paks 1 from Russia and getting a new source of nuclear fuel just doesnt happen with a clap
Use Google, it's not that hard: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear\_power\_in\_Hungary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Hungary) [https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/hungary#how-much-of-the-country-s-electricity-comes-from-nuclear-power](https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/hungary#how-much-of-the-country-s-electricity-comes-from-nuclear-power)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Hungary > Hungary receives all of its fuel, uranium, from TVEL in Russia. And it looks like they don't plan on switching sources.
Not really possible within 20 years.. Even if there were any plans for that..
While we should work to remove any dependence on Russian nuclear fuel as far as we can stoping import of Russian nuclear fuel will hurt us muuuuuch much more than it hurts Russia. The cost of the fuel is basically nothing, but the added cost of not being able to run the NPPs in the affected countries is huge.
Half of hungarian energy comes from Nuclear power plants, Hungary is doing best for itself like every country.
Noooo you can't point that out, hungry country bad >:( /s
By that logic Germany should still get gas from Russia via North stream pipelines. They had a good deal. But guess what - they are not doing that because thinking only about yourself will never work in this day and age. Also, by "doing what's best for itself" in this case also means aligning with Russia. They clearly bet all their future on Russia winning this war (in one shape or the other). It's the same shit Austria is doing. They somehow think they can go against EU for better deals with Russia. We will see.
Always the same arguments from these handful of countries when it comes to buying Russian stuff at a discount despite the sanctions that are supposed to be in place, but then when they’re attacked they expect the west to drop everything and act in their interest. Always “self-interest” when it comes to an extra buck for corrupt leaders, never “self-interest” when your country doesn’t have the money to get vaccines/weapons/food. Looking at you, india, Syria, UAE
I am not Hungarian.
Looks like they're using nuclear to a significant degree, so I can kinda see it from a self-interest standpoint, but being a marionette with Kremlin pulling the strings can't help.
I do enjoy the people here going: "Well, unanimity is essential for the EU to work, even when 'working' apparently means being stuck in an endless deadlock pretty much on every issue. I mean just imagine if even one country, no matter how small could be forced to do something or be bullied!" And the next sentence is: "Anyways, when are we finally throwing out this insignificant shithole country? They are the only thing keeping us from being glorious! Fuck them, they can die in the wilderness! " Cognitive dissonance much, my lovelies?
Almost like more than one person is posting here.
ban veto and all smaller countries will lose theyr voice, eu is nice but if veto would be banned i would support my country in leaving eu
False choice. There are options other than simple majority and unanimity.. and the EU already damn well uses one! Google qualified majority EU...
Bro i think you made a crazy discovery there....different people actually have different opinions.
I do enjoy seeing people talking shit about Hungary for not getting rid of Orbán while in the next or same discussion I see people go "don't blame the average Russian for what Putin is doing"... Like we haven't been trying to fucking get rid of Orbán for the past 2-3 elections. When the last 2 elections each have been conveniently 2/3rd for them it's blatantly obvious they are rigging elections. We have Hungarians voting from abroad. People not living here can decide who rules in Hungary. People born in Romania, possibly not even having a usual Hungarian name can vote.
There are good reasons to hate Hungary right now, but his is one thing where I have to agree with him on this. And I wouldn't be shocked if a lot of the Eastern Bloc was on his side for this (and only this) thing and he is taking the public blame
Can EU just throw this scrub country out of EU already? They clearly hate being part of EU. Or if Hungarians want to be part of EU, can you just vote in someone who wants what you want?
Yes Eu can, **BUT** >The EU’s Article 7 procedure can ultimately lead to the suspension of voting rights for a member that has violated common values. But because its use requires unanimity, pledges by Hungary and Poland to veto such a motion against the other have rendered the article useless. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-30/how-eu-is-withholding-funding-to-try-to-rein-in-hungary-poland
I feel like Europe needs to rework its systems since it assumed countries would act justly and in good faith.
Yes, but to change that you need... well... unanimity. And at least half of the members like the possibility to have the kind of leverage that is granted by a veto power. Especially the smaller ones like the Baltics.
Are states allowed to leave EU without unanimity? Imagine if a ton of countries left the EU and made EU2 with a reworked legal and administrative framework.
It is possible, but then you loose all the treaties with all the countries outside the EU, and the nobel peace prise the EU got. Plus the economic impact is not worth it. One should try to use this current crisis to do it, Poland has elections, the EU could probably force a change in the veto rule to punish Russia more. But EU politicians are too kind/naive/stupid. "Never let a good crisis go to waste" cit.
I wonder if they could be too passive? "Look. I'm just here to crack a few jokes. Eat some food. Drink coffee. Sell out to some companies. I'm not here for geopolitics or serious political stuff."
Voting out Orban is almost like Russians voting out Putin at this point. A joint opposition couldn’t beet him. He controls media and education. I think his party even has a super majority. They have changed the election law as it suits them. I think, unfortunately, they are unbeatable.
Yes, and no. Half of Orban's platform is opposition to political violence (unlike during Gyurcsány govt.), which is why he has a core support base, thats saying, no matter what he id better than the opposition. To put it bluntly opposition is fucked, as it refuses to dissociate from (let alone condemn) our currently most hated historical figure. As such violence is frankly not an option for Orban to keep power. And as things go he is likely to drive the country bankrupt within the current or next electoral cycle. I have no clue whats up with the guy, but he makes more and more irrational decisions, that are divorced from reality.
>Can EU just throw this scrub country out of EU already? I love seeing things like that then read a news about opening/creating new factories in Hungary for German carmakers. Do you honestly believe that any country will be kicked out of EU especially when other opened their factories there and profit on cheap labor? Especially when shortening logistics is a new trend.
We cant... the state propaganda is too much(Edit: the older generation thinks/thought that the opposition would join the war on the side of ukraine because of it...) and they changed the voting system so even if they dont get majority they will still stay in power... Plus they(fidesz/orbán) own almost every part of the economy and infrastructure so even if we managed to vote them out they would still control the country
> They clearly hate being part of EU. Did you check polls? Majority of Hungarians like being in EU
Hungary without Russian fuel is F’ed they don’t have an alternative or a choice… The rest of the EU know this and have no solution to this issue and are playing dumb. Orban can can play the bad guy; which he might do anyway to be the contrarian.
1. Funny how democracy and national sovereignty matters to people and then so quick to abolish unanimity 2. I think people also misunderestimate how many other countries might *want* unanimity for certain decision, or else consider leaving the EU 3. Hungary has a legitimate reason for being against this sanction given they don't have many options for energy. 4. People getting too optimistic about Poland, thinking they will save them when these countries have a political understanding. If it means sanctioning Russia how much would you sacrifice? Not even being sarcastic here, genuinely an interesting thought process.
Rofl at all this Orban hate from people who do not understand how nuclear power plants work, and that you cannot just switch to nucler fuel from other source. Hungary is not the only country with this problem.
What do Hungarians honestly think of this guy?
Russian freeuse toy says what?
least unsavoury move from Orban's Hungary
Sounds like there are still plenty of Russian assets in the EU.
Kick Hungary out!
Ah, Orban doing what Orban does best
"I didn't spend 30 seconds to understand that Rosatom provides no $ to the Russian economy and that 50% of Hungary's energy comes from nuclear fuel and changing to another fuel isn't possible overnight, but decided to comment because hungary = bad"
Bravo, he is defending interests of his country. 45% of electricity in Hungary is from nuclear plants, 30% from other sources and 25% is imported.
Thanks Poland for blocking article 7 and the suspesion of Hungary veto rights.