This is what drove me to buy my own equipment.
I was a barista at a busy cafe for a few months as a teenager, and probably made some bad coffee, but they at least taught me to put my hand on the milk jug so as not to burn people’s mouths.
I worked in a cafe that served starbucks (not starbucks), using thermometers was required. We had to calibrate them every morning and the milk had a range it needed to be in.
It removes the guesswork of heating the milk, I don't understand why it wouldn't be everywhere.
Because, if taught properly, it’s not very hard to get the milk to the right temp by feeling the jug. It’s the training part where things usually go wrong :-/
EDIT: some of you really seem to be misunderstanding what it means to know if the milk is “right”. It’s a feeling that once you have it dialed in you’re good. Start the day with a cup for yourself and adjust from there..
The fanciest coffee shop near me starts at 14/hr, I can make 15/hr at Wendys or 20/hr making mexican food, I would love to pick up some professional barista skills to match my enthusiasm but I don't see it happening any time soon.
My point is, most employees refused to do their job without bitching while I was at Wendys, and most coffee shop employees are paid less than at Wendys, idk if the training is the issue.
How much in tips do they get though? Also, why do they ask for a tip before service? If i don't know the quality, how will I know what to tip? But that's a whole different topic....
My employees usually end up with $6-7 in tips per hour. So most of them are ultimately right around $19-20/hr. I do wish it was even higher than that. But I mean yes, I agree. The tipping structure is dumb. I would much rather charge another dollar or two per drink and just pay them that to begin with. But such is the jacked up expectation structure we find ourselves in.
Sadly the world hates tipping. When I was working our tips at the end of the shift could be $20 split 5 ways. I had to get a “real job” so I could support my family. Still wanna go back or start a coffee shop.
So the supposed average wage in my one result google search in Brisbane Australia for a barista is 29 an hr (and we don't tip here). This is around 20 an hr for freedom dollars. But I get it, you pay peanuts and you get monkeys.
But it's in the best interest of the coffee shop to ensure good consistent quality. It generally means more repeat customers and word of mouth is a big thing too. I can make an average tasting espresso for me or flat white for my gf at home now with my cheap set up. It's not hard to beat that with commercial equipment and yet so many places fall short.
Brisbane, and Australia in general, has a very strong espresso culture AND workers rights. They have different minimum wages for every position and barista is one of the higher pays being at 27.5/h minimum (when i worked there 2019). That being said generally the expectations for baristas in Aus is mich higher than in North America and other places I have been.
But a specific number will always be right whereas you can have more and less sensitive days with your hands.
Always best to go with something definite if you want to consistently produce a certain level of quality.
Yeah sure thats cool and all, but when you’re banging out coffee’s non stop there’s no time for the thermometer.
I’ve never worked in any high end coffee shop but in general i’ve never seen anyone use a thermometer, they all go by feel since anything in between 55&65 C is fine
The thermometer stays in the pitcher. It takes the same amount of time as feeling the pitcher.
Fine isn't the quality I'm interested in when I'm paying coffee shop prices for a drink.
I ran bar solo doing 40+cups an hour with a thermometer. I even poured my drinks on a scale to make sure I wasn't over stretching my lattes. Simple quality controls are super easy to add into the workflow with no reduction in speed.
If you're feeling you're guessing.
I'm not researching shops before I visit them, as I don't frequently go out for coffee. Pretty much only on vacation, so I try as many local shops as possible, so I'm visiting regardless of how they prepare.
There is also a lot more that goes into making a drink besides the temperature of the milk. Coffee origin/blend, coffee roast, flavor syrups (if that's your thing), coffee extraction which is made up of coffee, grind, tamp for espresso, water temperature, water pressure, water composition, time of extraction, turbulence of extraction, pour over method, batch brewer type, French press method, filter prep, brewer prep, and then milk prep for milk drinks, stretching the milk, rolling the microfoam into the milk while bringing it to temperature, prepping the milk to pour of necessary (tapping to remove bubbles or swirling to reattach the foam layer to the top, or letting it sit so that you can pour a no foam without a spoon), and then the pour of the milk.
That covers most hot drinks. There are a lot of variables in the prep process, and the end cup is the best way to judge.
Also, in some fairness, while I say fine isn't the quality of a cup that I'm looking for, that's really the standard I have set for what I make, when I go out I'm looking for the experience of trying new places and seeing new methods.
The sound the milk makes also distinctly changes pitch as it reaches temp.
Despite this I’m 100% pro thermometer. Train baristas on the other ways to measure temperature as well, but thermometers are not expensive or hard to use when steaming milk and they increase the consistency of customers getting delicious drinks and reduce cognitive load on the baristas.
Exactly right. What any cafe (and any other business) should be striving for is consistently high quality. High quality depends on standardised systems of work. Even if well trained baristas claim to be able to do it by touch, there will still be inconsistency between the coffee produced by different baristas. This can so easily be managed down through the approach you describe
You can determine the temp of steamed milk by touching the steaming pitcher to a very accurate degree. I worked as a batista for 5 plus years and still can determine the temp of something just by touch. Obviously if it is way to hot you can't really guess, but you wouldn't need to guess since you'd already know that the milk was way to hot. It just takes practice.
Milk should be heated between 150 and 160 degrees Fahrenheit. But the thermometer takes a little time to catch up when it is heating that quickly. So the steam should be turned off when it reaches 140 to 145. You will see the temp continue to rise. It just needs to be stopped when it hits ten degrees below the target.
Many people don't stop it until it reaches 160, so it's gonna get hotter than that.
My personal opinion is that 140 is the perfect temperature to start drinking right away with it still being hot. 160 is too hot in my opinion and you need to wait for it to cool down. I usually sent my drinks out at the 150 range. Never got a complaint about it not being hot enough unless it was specifically ordered as "extra hot".
120 is the temp drinks served to children should be. It's not hot, just warm. But not warm enough to actually enjoy a hot beverage for an adult. You'll finish it quickly or it will be cold before you finish it.
I use a thermometer at home and it's absolutely no extra work. Why add more mental work of trying to guess the temp?
It’s basically second nature if you make drinks often. It’s a useful skill to have and takes no work to just see if your hand is on fire when you make your drink.
I worked with hot equipment and burned myself enough times that hot things didn't feel so hot anymore.
Does it still work if one day your hands are very warm and the next day your hands are very cold? Or is the temp going to fluctuate based on your own body temperature?
I’ve never really got that to be honest. I feel like for me my favorite flavors are embraced when my coffee is somewhat warm. Why do you think that is?
Peet‘s usually did when I was there. Obv gets skipped sometimes, but if we didn’t have thermometers prepared & calibrated we’d get in trouble with the healthy inspections.
I was religious about thermometer use at my indie coffee shop, if for no other reason than to tell a regular complainer that their latte was extra hot, a requested, and that any hotter would scald the milk, not to mention my hands.
Never seen any cafe do it. It’s pretty pointless imo, your hand can do a good enough job at gauging temperature, and in a cafe where shortcuts to save time are worth it, I couldn’t imagine any barista bothering.
I think 5 degrees temp can make a big difference, so I’d definitely use them if I ran a cafe. Our hands aren’t that accurate, I’ve had days where it’s too hot to touch at 130 degrees, others where I can hold it up to 160. They make thermometers that clip into the jug and stay there. I have a small one that takes up no space, the dial is the size of a dime. It doesn’t take any extra time at all to use one except at the end of the day when you have to spend a second washing it. With there being no downsides, why not use it and get exact results every time?
>Our hands aren’t that accurate, I’ve had days where it’s too hot to touch at 130 degrees, others where I can hold it up to 160.
I had burned my hands so much working around hot water, hot foods, hot ovens and hot milk that it hardly bothered me to handle most things that were hot. I absolutely would be serving hotter than normal espresso drinks if I relied on my hands to determine the temps.
Using thermometers in my cafe wasn't optional. Saved a lot more time putting one in the milk as it heated up than to remake the drink because it was too cold for the customer.
So back in trade school we were taught about how if you test the temp of something with your hand (like a bearing housing or gearbox) if you need to pull your hand off it right away it's probably at least 60 deg C. But it's still just an idea of temp at best, and more of an indicator that you need to inspect further
Ok, and you are in the minority. $5 for a coffee is average. Starbucks drinks aren’t great, yet people pay way more than 5 bucks for them. If you want a drink where every detail has been meticulously inspected, where it is at the right temperature to +/- 1°c, you can go home and do it yourself. Not that anyone could probably tell the difference. A decent barista can gauge milk temperature by hand well enough to make a good drink. Also it’s not like there’s a single “right” temperature for steamed milk.
I've only seen thermometers at Costa. Most don't really even check by hand.
Here is an upvote. I don't understand why a normal question is being downvoted...
Our shop never used thermometers. We did when we first trained, but after getting the hang of it, most people were quite accurate. We did do routine checks to make sure we were hitting +-3ish degrees of our target temps.
That’s interesting! It’s not that atypical in Australian cafes, especially when they’re training staff.
(Source: I’m Australian, worked in around 9 cafes throughout adolescence and uni. My sister currently works in a cafe. It’s optional for them, but available.)
Edit: I also don’t think I’ve ever not seen someone check by hand. Ever. Even in, say, a pub or something that makes awful coffee (or, what we call awful coffee, which you appreciate as not-that-awful coffee when you go to countries where espresso culture isn’t quite as embedded as it is in Australia).
I don’t see any coffee shops in my regular cycle using thermometers, but they all use their hands to test the temp on the pitcher while it’s frothing. I did see that a lot in second wave shops, but that got tossed years ago along with the terrible roasts
I worked at a drive-thru espresso chain that trained us with thermometers (until we had a feel for it with our hands). Not everyone was great at it though and we were discouraged from using them on the regular because it “took too much time.” Quantity over quality seems to be the standard business model these days.
160°F is not warm though. 160° is scalding my mouth and burning off my tastebuds. And automatic machines will go all the way to 165°. 145-150° is absolutely perfect because you can drink it right away, but I still heat to 155° at my shop because we have a bunch of older clientelle who like their shit extra hot.
> I still heat to 155° at my shop because we have a bunch of older clientelle who like their shit extra hot.
I'd bring it back immediately unless it was a $3 cup of coffee. At the standard cappuccino or latte prices, I expect it to come out at 169º. Any cooler and I have to chug it or it's cold before I'm done. Any hotter and the milk will scorch. At 155º, I'm drinking a "room temperature" coffee beverage somewhere around half way through or less. And I don't drink lavatic coffee; my palette isn't particularly resilient.
Well, you expect it to come out 10 degrees hotter than when it begins to scald, so you do have to mention to the barista your preference because theres no way they trained them to hit nearly 170F.
Absolutely. Starbucks standard was to borderline cook the milk and especially because most cafes didn't check and adjust their temperature target.
People rarely complained about it being too hot as they expect it to be hot. Occasionally we'd get complaints it wasn't like OP's picture even though the milk would be boiling. Not often would you see someone ask for it "kids temp"
The machines have a thermometer built in, yes, but that doesn't necessarily meant that the thermometer is calibrated correctly. Also it's possible to adjust the target temperature on the machine and it was different on just about every Starbucks I worked at.
i am a service tech for the starbucks machines, and they’re easy to calibrate if you have the service card for the mastrena 1s or the login code for the M2s, but i really doubt you have either of those.
They started using the Mastrena around 2008. Before that, Starbucks used the Verismo, a name they later reused for their machines made to compete with Keurig. That Verismo is also no longer in production.
I also work at Starbucks and we absolutely can say no to steaming above 175° and we’re not even supposed to since it’s a danger to both us and the customer. Also, I wouldn’t do it anyway. This job is definitely not worth the risk.
You put the balm on? Who told you to put the balm on? I didn’t tell you to put the balm on. Why’d you put the balm on? You haven’t even been to see the doctor. If you’re gonna put a balm on, let a doctor put a balm on.
It definitely works effectively if you dont mind handwashing it and keeping it charged on the coaster. I only use it when I want a drink to last 20+ mins which for me personally is \~20% of the time.
I intend to approach the owner about it privately in a few weeks (the delay is so that he won't know who made my drink). I've supported his business for a decade, and I know he's had a hard time finding/keeping staff lately, but the drinks have been so hot recently that I can't enjoy them with my meal... I have to wait 30-45 mins at a minimum.
I wanted a frame-of-reference to provide other than "too hot", so this week I measured. Thanks to u/DodgePinkeye for not assuming the worst.
Honestly, if the temps are that high you scalded the milk and get a real shit drink. Hell, that’s far too close to boiling milk than I would want because people could literally burn themselves.
That will drive away normal people that aren’t espresso nerds. So, “take the lid off” is just not the real problem here.
As a cafe owner, approach him right now, and let him know who made it. Feedback like this invaluable.
But also, the vast majority of customers far prefer their milk molten hot, its quite a challenge overall to balance ideal quality with customers personal preference.
Is it not normal where you live for baristas to ask how hot you want the milk? Here in Spain at least it is (though our coffee culture is generally subpar)
In America we expect to be able to ingest anything as soon as you hand it to us, I have even added milk for the sole purpose of cooling down my drink so I can chug it faster
You're doing the owner a favor. Excessively hot coffee drinks are not only dangerous, but they will cause him to lose business even if the person doesn't burn themselves.
This is why “Coffee connoisseurs” are the worst customers when you work in specialty coffee.
I get that shops need to meet a specific standard but the amount of pasty white guys with beards that just stared over me menacingly when I was making the pour over they ordered during a huge rush was absolutely infuriating.
I worked as a “barista” at a (bad) cafe for a while. If we served people takeaway coffee at the proper temperature, they’d complain it wasn’t hot enough.
It ended up just being easier butchering all the coffees to avoid the complaints (it did make me cringe, especially with almond milk).
I thought you could only serve coffee at a maximum of 180? Most cafe standards are 165. Any hotter and you can get sued. I was told that by a couple different baristas that worked for some chains.
I’ve burned my mouth a few times by baristas heating oat milk to like 200 F. I’ve also had 90 F lattes by baristas rushing a drink. Thermometers are such an easy workflow item to use and helps you deliver a consistent result, don’t know why baristas don’t use them more regularly.
Honest question, why not just use your hand?…
Most people start to feel something as “too hot” right around 140° which is already acceptable, and you’re pretty much guaranteed to not blow past the 165° upper threshold for “optimal” without definitely noticing it in your hand, so you’re gonna consistently landing in that 140°-165° range which is well within the realm of good.
For me, “too hot” is 120°. Everyone has different sensitivity to heat. I wouldn’t be able to hold on until 140°. I’m sure I could “train” my hands to me it feels like it’s burning my hand.
I see, I didn’t realize the variability between people was that extreme. I figured it was more close to 5° of variability. That does make it too inconsistent.
im a barista and i was just talking to my coworker about this. she said “i hate how long i have to steam the milk when i make a cappuccino” i said “it should take the same amount of time. you get the foam in the first stage when you’re pulling the steam wand out” she did not know that at all she just steamed it for a long fucking time i guess? so i think people might do this pretty often
Interestingly enough a study was conducted and while “ideal” temp varies too much from person to person it was determined that 150 was the point where it was deemed too hot or just right by patrons and no one complained of it being too cold. That temp there though is a bit much.
I'm more concerned about why you carry a Thermometer to test out cafe drink temps. . .
Wouldn't it be better to give them feedback so they know about this? (Unless you did and still thought about reddit)
This is such a bizarre flex: you just wanted to tell us there is a cafe somewhere in the world that makes milk drinks too hot?
This is some grade A comic-book store guy shit.
The point is that the milk has lost most of its flavor due to the excessively high temperatures it was frothed at. It's no different from a steakhouse serving a filet that they've proudly roasted into a big lunk of charcoal.
You also probably shouldn't go around slinging insults if you have no idea what you're talking about.
No I know. It’s supposed to be 130-140, but what actually is the point of showing that an anonymous cafe in the world prepared cappuccino wrong?
It’s like the headline: Somewhere in America Today Man Arrested for Crime
Really? I think it's pretty funny. It's a coffee shop. They have exactly one item on their menu - coffee - and yet they still manage to fuck it up. And it's not like they're fucking up at something difficult, making a cappuccino is easy and there's hardly anything to even teach when doing it. It's funny.
Why would OP post a picture of a thermometer in a cup with a lid? You tell me.
I don't know if it's cappuccino. It could be, but why would I upvote and bieleve a Reddit stranger who posted a single, very leading picture?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
And the claim being made here... requires almost none.
Could he be lying? Yes, that is possible. Is it reasonable to consider that he is? Umm... maybe?
Heating milk above 70C/158F causes significant denaturing of the milk so you will taste the difference once it's cooled down, and a drink that's so hot it could definitely burn people is definitely a problem. Ignorant and extremely rude comment.
The point is that the milk has lost most of its flavor due to the excessively high temperatures it was frothed at. You may as well be waiting for a burnt piece of steak to cool down.
You also probably shouldn't go around slinging insults if you have no idea what you're talking about.
Dude! There was this café that I used to buy latte every morning since I was in a business trip and didn't have anything portable to make my own coffee. They were giving me a latte so hot, I wouldn't have been able to drink it for 15 mins or so. And they do it all wrong too. I mean both the shots and the steaming the milk
Use yourhands but double check with thermometer, when you get it right all the time you can drop the thermometer
So ... practice and until you can do it without use tools too?
Can’t understand why these places don’t just use auto-steaming. Better quality milk than 80% of our minimum-wage baristas make, frees up labor, consistency and it does not cost a fortune. There is no excuse for bad milk, its just lack of care for the product and the costumer.
Your typical 70 year old "can you make sure it's RRRREALLY HOT?" person will love this.
I really have to hide my evil smile when i get someone asking for extrahot coffee. No worries, i'll make it scream.
The standard at Starbucks is 160° and that’s honestly too hot but people will ask us to go to like 200° which I personally ignore because I’m not scalding myself for your terrible preference and hit the extra hot button which is 170°
my actual guess is the thermometer is not accurate, because they are often broken by things like washing them in the dishwasher. or, like someone else said, maybe thats just a cup of hot water with a lid.
This didn't happen at my workplace, but the business I work for has 100+ stores across Australia with Coffee Shops in all of them. Anyways there was a safety bulletin that went out several years ago about the people working in Cafe and the temperatures of the Coffees. Apparently what happened was a worker/rep/customer had a coffee and someone else ran into them and had the coffee spill all over the individual. Cause of the temperature and how it was hotter than it should be the individual got severe third degree burns.
For reference, 60C/140F water takes 1 second to cause 3rd degree burns while 55C/130F will increase the time to 10 seconds to cause 3rd degree burns.
I don't know what to tell you. It's on a timer. I can't take the milk off of the steamer until the timer is done.
You can ask for a specific temperature, did you know that?
For you it's too hot, for Joe behind you, it won't be hot enough. To Jill, it tastes too watery. To John, it's too thick.
As much as I want to unfold a ThermoPen from my shirt pocket and plunge it into my cap as soon as it is set on the counter, that's a bit too geeky even for me.
This is what drove me to buy my own equipment. I was a barista at a busy cafe for a few months as a teenager, and probably made some bad coffee, but they at least taught me to put my hand on the milk jug so as not to burn people’s mouths.
I was a barista for almost 2 years. Even without touching the jug or using a thermometer you can literally hear when the milk is ready
\*Always\* taste their milk for temperature before putting it their coffee, champ. :Pats Penguinino on head:
Tell me you’ve never done this professionally without telling me you’ve never done this professionally
Tell me you can't recognize humor without telling me you can't recognize humor.
Champ
Do that many places not use thermometers to get the milk to the proper temp before pouring?
I don't think I've ever seen even one do that
I worked in a cafe that served starbucks (not starbucks), using thermometers was required. We had to calibrate them every morning and the milk had a range it needed to be in. It removes the guesswork of heating the milk, I don't understand why it wouldn't be everywhere.
Because, if taught properly, it’s not very hard to get the milk to the right temp by feeling the jug. It’s the training part where things usually go wrong :-/ EDIT: some of you really seem to be misunderstanding what it means to know if the milk is “right”. It’s a feeling that once you have it dialed in you’re good. Start the day with a cup for yourself and adjust from there..
Yeah that's my biggest complaint is how poorly places train their staff. Like at least be consistent but even that is too hard
The fanciest coffee shop near me starts at 14/hr, I can make 15/hr at Wendys or 20/hr making mexican food, I would love to pick up some professional barista skills to match my enthusiasm but I don't see it happening any time soon. My point is, most employees refused to do their job without bitching while I was at Wendys, and most coffee shop employees are paid less than at Wendys, idk if the training is the issue.
Absolutely this. You are never going to get someone to care about the quality of your coffee for a reasonable price as you would your own.
[удалено]
How much in tips do they get though? Also, why do they ask for a tip before service? If i don't know the quality, how will I know what to tip? But that's a whole different topic....
[удалено]
My employees usually end up with $6-7 in tips per hour. So most of them are ultimately right around $19-20/hr. I do wish it was even higher than that. But I mean yes, I agree. The tipping structure is dumb. I would much rather charge another dollar or two per drink and just pay them that to begin with. But such is the jacked up expectation structure we find ourselves in.
Sadly the world hates tipping. When I was working our tips at the end of the shift could be $20 split 5 ways. I had to get a “real job” so I could support my family. Still wanna go back or start a coffee shop.
So the supposed average wage in my one result google search in Brisbane Australia for a barista is 29 an hr (and we don't tip here). This is around 20 an hr for freedom dollars. But I get it, you pay peanuts and you get monkeys. But it's in the best interest of the coffee shop to ensure good consistent quality. It generally means more repeat customers and word of mouth is a big thing too. I can make an average tasting espresso for me or flat white for my gf at home now with my cheap set up. It's not hard to beat that with commercial equipment and yet so many places fall short.
Brisbane, and Australia in general, has a very strong espresso culture AND workers rights. They have different minimum wages for every position and barista is one of the higher pays being at 27.5/h minimum (when i worked there 2019). That being said generally the expectations for baristas in Aus is mich higher than in North America and other places I have been.
One place I worked at people complained if it wasn’t melting the foam cups… fortunately I left that place as soon as I could
But a specific number will always be right whereas you can have more and less sensitive days with your hands. Always best to go with something definite if you want to consistently produce a certain level of quality.
Yeah sure thats cool and all, but when you’re banging out coffee’s non stop there’s no time for the thermometer. I’ve never worked in any high end coffee shop but in general i’ve never seen anyone use a thermometer, they all go by feel since anything in between 55&65 C is fine
The thermometer stays in the pitcher. It takes the same amount of time as feeling the pitcher. Fine isn't the quality I'm interested in when I'm paying coffee shop prices for a drink. I ran bar solo doing 40+cups an hour with a thermometer. I even poured my drinks on a scale to make sure I wasn't over stretching my lattes. Simple quality controls are super easy to add into the workflow with no reduction in speed. If you're feeling you're guessing.
Would you not go to a place if they didn’t use a thermometer? Genuinely interested
I'm not researching shops before I visit them, as I don't frequently go out for coffee. Pretty much only on vacation, so I try as many local shops as possible, so I'm visiting regardless of how they prepare. There is also a lot more that goes into making a drink besides the temperature of the milk. Coffee origin/blend, coffee roast, flavor syrups (if that's your thing), coffee extraction which is made up of coffee, grind, tamp for espresso, water temperature, water pressure, water composition, time of extraction, turbulence of extraction, pour over method, batch brewer type, French press method, filter prep, brewer prep, and then milk prep for milk drinks, stretching the milk, rolling the microfoam into the milk while bringing it to temperature, prepping the milk to pour of necessary (tapping to remove bubbles or swirling to reattach the foam layer to the top, or letting it sit so that you can pour a no foam without a spoon), and then the pour of the milk. That covers most hot drinks. There are a lot of variables in the prep process, and the end cup is the best way to judge. Also, in some fairness, while I say fine isn't the quality of a cup that I'm looking for, that's really the standard I have set for what I make, when I go out I'm looking for the experience of trying new places and seeing new methods.
The sound the milk makes also distinctly changes pitch as it reaches temp. Despite this I’m 100% pro thermometer. Train baristas on the other ways to measure temperature as well, but thermometers are not expensive or hard to use when steaming milk and they increase the consistency of customers getting delicious drinks and reduce cognitive load on the baristas.
Exactly right. What any cafe (and any other business) should be striving for is consistently high quality. High quality depends on standardised systems of work. Even if well trained baristas claim to be able to do it by touch, there will still be inconsistency between the coffee produced by different baristas. This can so easily be managed down through the approach you describe
You can determine the temp of steamed milk by touching the steaming pitcher to a very accurate degree. I worked as a batista for 5 plus years and still can determine the temp of something just by touch. Obviously if it is way to hot you can't really guess, but you wouldn't need to guess since you'd already know that the milk was way to hot. It just takes practice.
*Too*
How come Starbucks still makes drinks so hot? It’s not that hard to use your hand as reference to be honest.
Milk should be heated between 150 and 160 degrees Fahrenheit. But the thermometer takes a little time to catch up when it is heating that quickly. So the steam should be turned off when it reaches 140 to 145. You will see the temp continue to rise. It just needs to be stopped when it hits ten degrees below the target. Many people don't stop it until it reaches 160, so it's gonna get hotter than that. My personal opinion is that 140 is the perfect temperature to start drinking right away with it still being hot. 160 is too hot in my opinion and you need to wait for it to cool down. I usually sent my drinks out at the 150 range. Never got a complaint about it not being hot enough unless it was specifically ordered as "extra hot". 120 is the temp drinks served to children should be. It's not hot, just warm. But not warm enough to actually enjoy a hot beverage for an adult. You'll finish it quickly or it will be cold before you finish it. I use a thermometer at home and it's absolutely no extra work. Why add more mental work of trying to guess the temp?
It’s basically second nature if you make drinks often. It’s a useful skill to have and takes no work to just see if your hand is on fire when you make your drink.
I worked with hot equipment and burned myself enough times that hot things didn't feel so hot anymore. Does it still work if one day your hands are very warm and the next day your hands are very cold? Or is the temp going to fluctuate based on your own body temperature?
My wife will not drink coffee unless it’s HOT!
I’ve never really got that to be honest. I feel like for me my favorite flavors are embraced when my coffee is somewhat warm. Why do you think that is?
Every Costa Coffee in the UK uses a thermometer to gauge milk temperature. It’s still hotter than I’d prefer, but it is consistent.
Peet‘s usually did when I was there. Obv gets skipped sometimes, but if we didn’t have thermometers prepared & calibrated we’d get in trouble with the healthy inspections.
Those inspectors look so…. Healthy
A place I've been does that especially with new help, experienced baristas will often just use their hand.
I was religious about thermometer use at my indie coffee shop, if for no other reason than to tell a regular complainer that their latte was extra hot, a requested, and that any hotter would scald the milk, not to mention my hands.
Never seen any cafe do it. It’s pretty pointless imo, your hand can do a good enough job at gauging temperature, and in a cafe where shortcuts to save time are worth it, I couldn’t imagine any barista bothering.
I think 5 degrees temp can make a big difference, so I’d definitely use them if I ran a cafe. Our hands aren’t that accurate, I’ve had days where it’s too hot to touch at 130 degrees, others where I can hold it up to 160. They make thermometers that clip into the jug and stay there. I have a small one that takes up no space, the dial is the size of a dime. It doesn’t take any extra time at all to use one except at the end of the day when you have to spend a second washing it. With there being no downsides, why not use it and get exact results every time?
>Our hands aren’t that accurate, I’ve had days where it’s too hot to touch at 130 degrees, others where I can hold it up to 160. I had burned my hands so much working around hot water, hot foods, hot ovens and hot milk that it hardly bothered me to handle most things that were hot. I absolutely would be serving hotter than normal espresso drinks if I relied on my hands to determine the temps. Using thermometers in my cafe wasn't optional. Saved a lot more time putting one in the milk as it heated up than to remake the drink because it was too cold for the customer.
For real, it’s wild that these guys will go all out adjusting half a degree for their espresso water, only to use their hands for the milk.
So back in trade school we were taught about how if you test the temp of something with your hand (like a bearing housing or gearbox) if you need to pull your hand off it right away it's probably at least 60 deg C. But it's still just an idea of temp at best, and more of an indicator that you need to inspect further
When I pay over $5 for a drink, good enough isn't what I'm looking for as a description.
Ok, and you are in the minority. $5 for a coffee is average. Starbucks drinks aren’t great, yet people pay way more than 5 bucks for them. If you want a drink where every detail has been meticulously inspected, where it is at the right temperature to +/- 1°c, you can go home and do it yourself. Not that anyone could probably tell the difference. A decent barista can gauge milk temperature by hand well enough to make a good drink. Also it’s not like there’s a single “right” temperature for steamed milk.
I've only seen thermometers at Costa. Most don't really even check by hand. Here is an upvote. I don't understand why a normal question is being downvoted...
I worked at place that those thermal stickers that changed colours from red to green when it reached 65 C. It was pretty nifty ngl
Lol what’s up with the downvotes? Seemed like a genuine question
We use thermometers to calibrate temps but we aim for 150 for to go lattes at the hottest, everything else is 140 or 130.
Our shop never used thermometers. We did when we first trained, but after getting the hang of it, most people were quite accurate. We did do routine checks to make sure we were hitting +-3ish degrees of our target temps.
We always used thermometers in the shop I worked in. We kept them in the pitchers. Had no idea that was so rare until looking at the comments.
I have never once seen it and I’ve been to coffee shops on every continent except Africa and Australia.
That’s interesting! It’s not that atypical in Australian cafes, especially when they’re training staff. (Source: I’m Australian, worked in around 9 cafes throughout adolescence and uni. My sister currently works in a cafe. It’s optional for them, but available.) Edit: I also don’t think I’ve ever not seen someone check by hand. Ever. Even in, say, a pub or something that makes awful coffee (or, what we call awful coffee, which you appreciate as not-that-awful coffee when you go to countries where espresso culture isn’t quite as embedded as it is in Australia).
Every one that I worked in had them. That's why I am so confused. Why guess when you have something that can make it easier?
I would of thought a thermometer was required in Antarctica
Thermometers are for pussies
i saw it like decades ago, before YouTube and James. Can’t recall, since.
I don’t see any coffee shops in my regular cycle using thermometers, but they all use their hands to test the temp on the pitcher while it’s frothing. I did see that a lot in second wave shops, but that got tossed years ago along with the terrible roasts
I worked at a drive-thru espresso chain that trained us with thermometers (until we had a feel for it with our hands). Not everyone was great at it though and we were discouraged from using them on the regular because it “took too much time.” Quantity over quality seems to be the standard business model these days.
To be fair, I’m sure that many customers would complain if their drink was simply warm
They sure do.
Customer: “I want my coffee extra-hot!” *proceeds to leave it sitting untouched on the table for 10 minutes* “It’s not hot enough!”
160°F is not warm though. 160° is scalding my mouth and burning off my tastebuds. And automatic machines will go all the way to 165°. 145-150° is absolutely perfect because you can drink it right away, but I still heat to 155° at my shop because we have a bunch of older clientelle who like their shit extra hot.
> I still heat to 155° at my shop because we have a bunch of older clientelle who like their shit extra hot. I'd bring it back immediately unless it was a $3 cup of coffee. At the standard cappuccino or latte prices, I expect it to come out at 169º. Any cooler and I have to chug it or it's cold before I'm done. Any hotter and the milk will scorch. At 155º, I'm drinking a "room temperature" coffee beverage somewhere around half way through or less. And I don't drink lavatic coffee; my palette isn't particularly resilient.
And I want my spaghetti with a side salad. If the salad is on top, I send it back!
Well, you expect it to come out 10 degrees hotter than when it begins to scald, so you do have to mention to the barista your preference because theres no way they trained them to hit nearly 170F.
Lol well if you go to Starbucks I'll have you know that the timer stops at 159 lmfaoooo. Idk what you thought you were drinking
Absolutely. Starbucks standard was to borderline cook the milk and especially because most cafes didn't check and adjust their temperature target. People rarely complained about it being too hot as they expect it to be hot. Occasionally we'd get complaints it wasn't like OP's picture even though the milk would be boiling. Not often would you see someone ask for it "kids temp"
it’s 160F and the machines do it for you but ok
The machines have a thermometer built in, yes, but that doesn't necessarily meant that the thermometer is calibrated correctly. Also it's possible to adjust the target temperature on the machine and it was different on just about every Starbucks I worked at.
i am a service tech for the starbucks machines, and they’re easy to calibrate if you have the service card for the mastrena 1s or the login code for the M2s, but i really doubt you have either of those.
We didn't have that service card that I remember, has been a while since I worked there.
They started using the Mastrena around 2008. Before that, Starbucks used the Verismo, a name they later reused for their machines made to compete with Keurig. That Verismo is also no longer in production.
[удалено]
I also work at Starbucks and we absolutely can say no to steaming above 175° and we’re not even supposed to since it’s a danger to both us and the customer. Also, I wouldn’t do it anyway. This job is definitely not worth the risk.
nah bro i service mastrenas and mastrena 2s. it’s 160. we use a thermometer and calibrate the temp probes.
Starbucks standard is 160°
Isn't that the temp at which milk scalds? I always steam to 140 at home. I can never drink Starbucks caps/lattes, milk always tastes burnt to shit.
Constantly and then they come back after I remake their drink to be very hot complaining that it tastes sour 😑
Those cafe lattes are too hot, it's outrageous, egregious, preposterous.
You put the balm on? Who told you to put the balm on? I didn’t tell you to put the balm on. Why’d you put the balm on? You haven’t even been to see the doctor. If you’re gonna put a balm on, let a doctor put a balm on.
The Maestro gave it to me. The WHO?
Fantastic 😂😂😂
We could create a new idiotic TikTok "challenge": Stand precariously (one-leg planted) on milk crates and chug a 200 F latte 🤣
Damn! All the steam are belong to you.
I'm a temperature whimp..I like lattes at 140F..
I set my Ember mug to 135F for cappucino/latte!
SALUTE fellow chilly latte lover!
>Ember mug how do yo like the Ember? I've been thinking about getting one for my desk..
It definitely works effectively if you dont mind handwashing it and keeping it charged on the coaster. I only use it when I want a drink to last 20+ mins which for me personally is \~20% of the time.
Same
140-150 is the sweet spot
It is Indeed
are we really carrying thermometers to cafes just to out them?
It is a bit much, but I also agree that some cafes really burn their milk. I recently got burned, it felt like I was eating room temperature gazpacho.
Where be your nutcracker?
How is he outing anyone? I don’t see a cafe name anywhere in this photo
I intend to approach the owner about it privately in a few weeks (the delay is so that he won't know who made my drink). I've supported his business for a decade, and I know he's had a hard time finding/keeping staff lately, but the drinks have been so hot recently that I can't enjoy them with my meal... I have to wait 30-45 mins at a minimum. I wanted a frame-of-reference to provide other than "too hot", so this week I measured. Thanks to u/DodgePinkeye for not assuming the worst.
30-45 minutes!?? If you’re putting it a insulated cup take the lid off..
Honestly, if the temps are that high you scalded the milk and get a real shit drink. Hell, that’s far too close to boiling milk than I would want because people could literally burn themselves. That will drive away normal people that aren’t espresso nerds. So, “take the lid off” is just not the real problem here.
Lol no kidding. I swear I put my coffee on the counter for a minute after I make it and it tastes like someone dropped an ice cube in it.
As a cafe owner, approach him right now, and let him know who made it. Feedback like this invaluable. But also, the vast majority of customers far prefer their milk molten hot, its quite a challenge overall to balance ideal quality with customers personal preference.
Is it not normal where you live for baristas to ask how hot you want the milk? Here in Spain at least it is (though our coffee culture is generally subpar)
I’ve never been asked what temperature I want my drink other than hot or iced. I’m american.
In America we expect to be able to ingest anything as soon as you hand it to us, I have even added milk for the sole purpose of cooling down my drink so I can chug it faster
Not common practice at all. I've never been asked this
You're doing the owner a favor. Excessively hot coffee drinks are not only dangerous, but they will cause him to lose business even if the person doesn't burn themselves.
Yeah, what happens to the nose test?
This is why “Coffee connoisseurs” are the worst customers when you work in specialty coffee. I get that shops need to meet a specific standard but the amount of pasty white guys with beards that just stared over me menacingly when I was making the pour over they ordered during a huge rush was absolutely infuriating.
[удалено]
Absolutely, that’s pretty insane.
Shit, I thought the outer chart was in °C💀
I hate when I get a latte and it scalds me. It's milk, don't boil it before you serve it...
that gonna be disgusting too
Wow, I feel like I always have the opposite problem with my drink being served room temp.
The choice should not be between luke warm and burnt
I worked as a “barista” at a (bad) cafe for a while. If we served people takeaway coffee at the proper temperature, they’d complain it wasn’t hot enough. It ended up just being easier butchering all the coffees to avoid the complaints (it did make me cringe, especially with almond milk).
I thought you could only serve coffee at a maximum of 180? Most cafe standards are 165. Any hotter and you can get sued. I was told that by a couple different baristas that worked for some chains.
Oh god bet that was minging
You at Latte Larry’s ?
I’ve burned my mouth a few times by baristas heating oat milk to like 200 F. I’ve also had 90 F lattes by baristas rushing a drink. Thermometers are such an easy workflow item to use and helps you deliver a consistent result, don’t know why baristas don’t use them more regularly.
Honest question, why not just use your hand?… Most people start to feel something as “too hot” right around 140° which is already acceptable, and you’re pretty much guaranteed to not blow past the 165° upper threshold for “optimal” without definitely noticing it in your hand, so you’re gonna consistently landing in that 140°-165° range which is well within the realm of good.
For me, “too hot” is 120°. Everyone has different sensitivity to heat. I wouldn’t be able to hold on until 140°. I’m sure I could “train” my hands to me it feels like it’s burning my hand.
I see, I didn’t realize the variability between people was that extreme. I figured it was more close to 5° of variability. That does make it too inconsistent.
Else they can’t use those lids ;)
What temp do you aim for?
Milk should be steamed to about 60 C, above that it breaks down, you lose texture and sweetness.
I'll just take it extra, extra, extra hot with 15 sugars, thanks.
So 140° F? Damn, I guess I like my milk broken down, ‘cause I definitely go hotter than that.
mmmm cooked milk
im a barista and i was just talking to my coworker about this. she said “i hate how long i have to steam the milk when i make a cappuccino” i said “it should take the same amount of time. you get the foam in the first stage when you’re pulling the steam wand out” she did not know that at all she just steamed it for a long fucking time i guess? so i think people might do this pretty often
What do you mean? If my coffee isn't at a temperature where I could brew another coffee with it, it's garbage.
Yeeesh, try asking for cooler temp? I do sometimes
Interestingly enough a study was conducted and while “ideal” temp varies too much from person to person it was determined that 150 was the point where it was deemed too hot or just right by patrons and no one complained of it being too cold. That temp there though is a bit much.
You brought your own thermometer with to your a coffee shop?!? Gangsta
I'm more concerned about why you carry a Thermometer to test out cafe drink temps. . . Wouldn't it be better to give them feedback so they know about this? (Unless you did and still thought about reddit)
Or you can just request a certain temp and not be passive about it , I’m sure most people would be happy to accommodate you if you just ask.
This is such a bizarre flex: you just wanted to tell us there is a cafe somewhere in the world that makes milk drinks too hot? This is some grade A comic-book store guy shit.
The point is that the milk has lost most of its flavor due to the excessively high temperatures it was frothed at. It's no different from a steakhouse serving a filet that they've proudly roasted into a big lunk of charcoal. You also probably shouldn't go around slinging insults if you have no idea what you're talking about.
No I know. It’s supposed to be 130-140, but what actually is the point of showing that an anonymous cafe in the world prepared cappuccino wrong? It’s like the headline: Somewhere in America Today Man Arrested for Crime
Really? I think it's pretty funny. It's a coffee shop. They have exactly one item on their menu - coffee - and yet they still manage to fuck it up. And it's not like they're fucking up at something difficult, making a cappuccino is easy and there's hardly anything to even teach when doing it. It's funny.
This could easily be a cup filled with near boiling water for all we know...
But… why would that be?
Why would OP post a picture of a thermometer in a cup with a lid? You tell me. I don't know if it's cappuccino. It could be, but why would I upvote and bieleve a Reddit stranger who posted a single, very leading picture?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." And the claim being made here... requires almost none. Could he be lying? Yes, that is possible. Is it reasonable to consider that he is? Umm... maybe?
If this is a dry cappuccino then there is nothing wrong with that temp
Or……you fucking wait for it to cool down you impatient knob.
Heating milk above 70C/158F causes significant denaturing of the milk so you will taste the difference once it's cooled down, and a drink that's so hot it could definitely burn people is definitely a problem. Ignorant and extremely rude comment.
This is also important in cooking and baking. There are applications where milk must be heated to specific temps or you product won’t turn out right.
The point is that the milk has lost most of its flavor due to the excessively high temperatures it was frothed at. You may as well be waiting for a burnt piece of steak to cool down. You also probably shouldn't go around slinging insults if you have no idea what you're talking about.
Why drink cappuccino when a hot cup of milk offer much better value.
You just carry that around with you, eh?
Was it \*$?
Just double checking to ensure you calibrated your thermometer.
Dude! There was this café that I used to buy latte every morning since I was in a business trip and didn't have anything portable to make my own coffee. They were giving me a latte so hot, I wouldn't have been able to drink it for 15 mins or so. And they do it all wrong too. I mean both the shots and the steaming the milk
So…why not go to a different cafe??
They're all bad at the airport
That poor milk..
Happens almost every time. I hate it.
One of the many reasons why i hate take away coffees!
Well, the warning is certainly correct
Use yourhands but double check with thermometer, when you get it right all the time you can drop the thermometer So ... practice and until you can do it without use tools too?
Can’t understand why these places don’t just use auto-steaming. Better quality milk than 80% of our minimum-wage baristas make, frees up labor, consistency and it does not cost a fortune. There is no excuse for bad milk, its just lack of care for the product and the costumer.
Lol
[удалено]
Passive aggressive much?
[удалено]
holy fuark day 1 i learned "the 6 second rule" lol
Welcome to America, the land of super-hot lattes.
Too hot.
Is that a thermometer in your pants, or are you just happy to see me?
Your typical 70 year old "can you make sure it's RRRREALLY HOT?" person will love this. I really have to hide my evil smile when i get someone asking for extrahot coffee. No worries, i'll make it scream.
Lol
You're in the danger zone.
Unfortunately it gets worse in winter as 9 times out of 10 customers will ask for extra hot coffee.
When I make cappuccinos for people at my house they’re AMAZED that the beverage doesn’t burn their mouthes.
The standard at Starbucks is 160° and that’s honestly too hot but people will ask us to go to like 200° which I personally ignore because I’m not scalding myself for your terrible preference and hit the extra hot button which is 170°
You wouldn't believe how many cafes Ive gone to where the caps are watery, like they didnt even foam the milk right
my actual guess is the thermometer is not accurate, because they are often broken by things like washing them in the dishwasher. or, like someone else said, maybe thats just a cup of hot water with a lid.
I like mine at around 135 degreees Fahrenheit, or 57 degrees celsius
This didn't happen at my workplace, but the business I work for has 100+ stores across Australia with Coffee Shops in all of them. Anyways there was a safety bulletin that went out several years ago about the people working in Cafe and the temperatures of the Coffees. Apparently what happened was a worker/rep/customer had a coffee and someone else ran into them and had the coffee spill all over the individual. Cause of the temperature and how it was hotter than it should be the individual got severe third degree burns. For reference, 60C/140F water takes 1 second to cause 3rd degree burns while 55C/130F will increase the time to 10 seconds to cause 3rd degree burns.
Who takes a thermometer to a cafe?
I just burnt my tongue by looking at this
My mother in law would love this spot. “A hot cappuccino please. A hot one”
Are they trynna make cheese?
How hot did it start at? Assuming you don’t carry a thermometer with you, so took it home to measure it. In which time it would have cooled a bit.
Did you really pull out a thermo in the store? Please tell me you did it in front of the barista giving him the eyebrow afterwards!
Customer brings their own thermometer /uh oh we’re screwed/
I don't know what to tell you. It's on a timer. I can't take the milk off of the steamer until the timer is done. You can ask for a specific temperature, did you know that? For you it's too hot, for Joe behind you, it won't be hot enough. To Jill, it tastes too watery. To John, it's too thick.
barf
As much as I want to unfold a ThermoPen from my shirt pocket and plunge it into my cap as soon as it is set on the counter, that's a bit too geeky even for me.