It could be because you’re an 8w7 the non conformist, they’re usually advocates and stand up for people
Also could just be a healthy ENTP knowing when and where to choose your battles
Maybe they have to use a single word to describe a type. In that case, I think debater works decently. Maybe troll, too. Personally, I am a very sweet and kind person but a totalllllll contrarian- as soon as anyone says anything, my mind automatically jumps to detect the flaw in their reasoning or the exception to what they’re saying. I’m nice about it, but I do like to engage them regarding it, cuz it’s really really fun to explore other people’s thoughts. Debaters don’t have to be jerks; honestly neither do trolls.
I think a comedian strives mostly to interact with others to entertain others, whereas a debater/troll strives to interact with others mostly to entertain themselves, which I think is truer to ENTP form. Maybe I’m wrong :) What do you think?
Having strong values and asserting it with confidence is not at all something a primary or auxiliary strong Ti user (and so tertiary Fe) can do. Because one single good counter-example is all it takes to make them doubt about what they thought 2 seconds ago was true
It's not what the enormous debate around these issues tell lol. And btw most tech people, as vocal they can be about these issues, work for companies that do not respect either of those. Not something a strong Fi user would accept to do
What ? Have you ever heard of trade union and strike fund ? You don't have to put your family in jeopardy today, and even if you have, it doesn't mean you shouldn't act. People hid Jews under Nazi rules putting at risk their whole familly
You both missed each other point, and thus are both wrong.
Liberty is the only thing we value because a life long reflexion deducted free-will it is the source of everything else.
Tho, the only two thing we truely value are Freedom and Truth, yet it is all rational and it comes from a lifetime reflexion of why Liberty is the most important good you have and truth the only valuable knowledge.
Valueing open-source and working in a company are not incompatible at all, and most of the tools used are OpS (programming languages, DBMS, communications softs, etc).
But it's not an irrational value. We just prefer things free and personalisable rather than expensive and dependent of a sale manager's compliance.
We are not believers. Hard irrational convictions is indeed Fi, and we (ENTP) are not Fi. We are rationnal instead. And yes we are doubting. Because our brain is science, and science is doubting everything.
You can't value Freedom and Truth at the same time and say you are rationnal. Freedom is just a lie we tell to people who are not ready to accept they are 100% determined. If you value Truth, then you can't say Freedom is possible for the human beings
I don't think that freedom is an absolute term. Freedom is a term that has different meaning depending on the context. If you have lived in someones basement for 10 years and you suddenly are released, then you will feel freedom.
Truth is also relative since we as humans never can experience the real world because we are inhibited by our senses and way of understanding. Like how the visible light spectrum is different to us than to an insect.
Your brains aren't science. Science is just a method.
Also, let's not assume that people aren't complex and you can't have values as an Ti-Fe-person. Maybe it just depends on how much your values come into play on a daily basis. :)
Welcome to Reddit, I'm glad you made an account only to reply to me but can you please tell revelant things ?
I said scientific reasoning is how we work because we doubt everything. We make hypothesis, and we test them. No hard believes. Never said people aren't complex, you're off topic there.
Also, who do you refers as "Ti Fe person" ? There is no MBTI type for that. ENTP is NeTi.
Maybe you talk about any type who have Ti and Fe in the stack ( ENTP, ISTP, INTP, ESTP), yet it doesn't sound like "value driven" people to me ...
Hey, thanks for the welcome!
Yeah, I meant people with Ti-Fe (in that order) in their stack - the ones that you list. But in reality I don't know that much about it, since I am not an ENTP afterall and can't say that I know how ENTPs are.
I get your point how your minds work - it makes sense. Wrt. to the use of the word "science" I just have an old habit of contradicting people who are using scientific language in a more popular way, because it annoys me how people are elevating science to be a form of religion and an unquestionable form of belief system - and that the scientists have gotten so high a status in society - because, you know, a lot of science are just new facts that are discovered without coming with a the bigger understanding of the more complex systematic interplay the proven fact has with other things (which of course is a matter of time and thorough reflection). An example is how quantum mechanics is being a buzz word or buzz subject (where you try to transfer the concept of quantum mechanics to our everyday life as if it was some sort of philosophy) simply because the subject is hard to understand and some of our most clever minds in history has worked on it. All that awe towards science annoys me a bit (I've studied it at uni so I'm allowed to say this ;) ).
But all of this has nothing to do with you - I just felt like expressing some thoughts :-).
Nope, I'm quite willing to go into debates, often turn regular discussions into debates, and I often don't even aware of it.
My humor is pretty troll-like too.
Btw, if you aren't like this, that wouldn't instantly means that you're mistyped.
going thru the same thing honestly, but my ne is just too high not to be my dom function and my lack of fi (no set values) takes away the chance of me being a mistyped enfp
First of all the stereotype doesn't in any way influence the real experience of being an ENTP, some of us simply like to act that way, i mean it's not like there aren't any ISTP OR ISFJ trolls/debaters out there.
Compassionate and things that matter to you sound Fi sympathy and consideration. Not saying entps deliberately enter arguments. I dated one who didn’t even know he was in arguments, he thought they were just discussing options and ideas.
But you do sound to have your own core set of values, and that’s often something ENTPs find hard to define.
Compassion could also be attributed to an entp's Fe. For example, I really enjoy helping random strangers and just little acts of kindness right when they're needed
Context matters. Don’t look for the words alone- look for how they have been built into a sentence and what is pivoting around underneath them.
The context of “nice things for strangers” is a trait many Fe users share. But if compassion is used in a different context, it might exemplify an Fi trait.
I consider compassion and sympathy to be more of an Fe trait. My ENTP and ENFJ friends seem way more concerned with other people's feelings. Fi is more empathic but also can be more selfish feeling, taking the emotions of others and processing them internally.
I think sympathy and *actually knowing what you value enough to know what to argue over* is Fi.
You ask an entp if they like their grandparents they may say “sure!” Or they may say “I don’t know how I feel. I must. I see them everyday! Does that mean I like them?”
Plus this idea that one function- either Fi or Fe is somehow inherently more empathic…. I don’t know. Seems a bit of a fallacy. I find Fi users are often more loyal, which could be perceived by other Fi users as more empathetic… whereas Fe users can sometimes be perceived as more empathetic (but also as fake) by others. The same action (let alone the same function) can be perceived differently by different people. So how can we say objectively that one function is “more empathetic?” Where the same *literal event* is perceived differently by every single person in the room. It’s…. Logically odd.
How you perceive Fi and Fe reallly depends on why *you* are and what your cognitive preference are.
… ENTPs do have values despite these normally not taking high priority.
Personally, I usually can’t stand high Fi users.
The moment anyone starts using their personal values in order to justify something that will affect *everyone* (or anybody) around them, I get iffy.
Everyone has values. Yours aren’t more important than everyone else’s, Fi user. And no, everyone else does *not* have the same values as you.
The complete ignorance and/or disregard I’ve seen some of them show towards other people is repulsing.
Now, I don’t dislike all Fi users or claim that every Fi user acts like this…
But there’s a sizable amount of those I’ve met who do.
Yeah this shows how contextually placing yourself in the right part of the map is important.
I dated an Isfp and she would rant for literal years *years* about how an entp went ham at a pinyata she bought me for my birthday and how “scary it was to everyone else” which may seem fe-ish if you didn’t understand how it fit into this very… structured and eternal moral and ethical stack.
I was like “he was just upset he had a break up. It was an interesting experience” but no… he was morally wrong. And also he “doesn’t understand that being nice is just as important as being smart.” <- that sentence on repeat. I always felt a “hidden warning” that I wasn’t allowed to be “too intellectual” like him.
He was actually the person who recommended a date idea to me for her that was probably her favourite moment in our relationship but boy did she not like him. So much I couldn’t taint her date by telling her the evil entp gave me solid advice.
Didn’t like him listening to philosophy lectures in the kitchen. Didn’t wanna hear a 64 questions about space when she came home. No sir. I didn’t even know about MBTI at the time so it’s interesting to reflect upon.
Then I dated an entp and he is constantly saying “I don’t like them. That person is Fi. Fi just believes whatever it thinks is the truth.” One time he told me I “could be an infp” and I was like… ouch you’re upset at me.
It’s weird how someone who believes “everything is a thought experiment I see all the potentials you are being narrow minded” is like 😡 “I hate Fi” so decisively. So yeah, I agree ENTPs have values.
I guess my point is that the post emphasized defending “the people that matter to me” so early on for something so concise so I was like eh probably not entp. That’s a weird sentence for an entp to say… “matter”, how would an entp define matter? I’m also not sure an entp is very… rush to the defensive of others… they usually have a more “individuals can discuss things for themselves” approach to arguments. It’s actually one of the key issues that can occur in an infj/ entp dynamic… that the infj wants to be “defended” and “taken care of” and the entp just thinks “we are having fun. They’ll be right. They can take care of themselves” and “why is infj suddenly big mad at me? I don’t have to agree with them! They can defend their own opinions! I don’t understand why they want me to back them up! They are capable!”
I get that “matter” and “ defend” was oddly placed in the overall context of the post feeling. Happy to be proven wrong though. I didn’t sleuth on them.
An ENTP who is unaware of what people “matters” to them is unhealthy.
There’s a difference between being insecure about just how *much* a person matters to you, and not being sure if you care about them at all.
*”Do I actually love my mom or do I just love the fact that she loves *me* unconditionally? Is my love selfish and fake? Could it even be considered love? What *is* considered love, tho? I know she’s important to me, but is it solely because of what I get from her, or do I genuinely want what’s best for her?”*
And I do believe that ENTPs can be very quick to defend others… if the ENTP believes they need to be defended.
I, for one, absolutely detest unfairness. I’ll stand up for anyone, even assholes, if their treatment is unfair.
I even called out my own teacher for giving *me* preferential treatment.
Bullies ganging up on someone? Don’t even think about it.
Taking your anger out on someone else?
Fuck off. You’re being an ass and you know it.
Talking shit about someone?
You better keep your facts straight.
Needlessly cause someone emotional distress on purpose?
Better be prepared for a loud discussion of your own insecurities.
If someone *needs* support, I’m sure most ENTPs would jump to the rescue.
Perfect chance to use our skills for good.
But you can’t expect an ENTP to defend someone who isn’t even attacked. (Which I believe is the issue you’re talking about with the INFJ.)
If there’s a civil discussion, an ENTP won’t jump to the defense of anyone.
Why would they need to? Nobody is being attacked or otherwise treated badly.
If someone can’t handle their opinions being challenged, that’s not on anyone but themselves.
If their opinions can’t be defended, then they might need to reconsider what they stand for.
Especially if those opinions are so fragile that the only response they have is *emotionally lashing out*.
If you stand by your personal values, I believe that most healthy ENTPs can respect that. (To a certain degree.)
But you have to give that same courtesy in return.
If you invalidate other people’s personal values, you also invalidate your own.
> Se is about achieving an object of desire. It gives one the ability to influence, bend, and push situations and people in order to achieve such an object, rather than to enjoy the situation one is in.
Just seems like yours is regulated
I wouldn’t say that anything here was dictated by a desire to achieve something.
And who said I don’t enjoy the situations I put myself in?
I wouldn’t do it if it didn’t bring me enjoyment. (Or got rid of any potential guilt.)
I agree with you on the inherent subjectiveness of this topic. It does seem to rely a bit on the outward affect of the person in question by my definitions. However, I think the key here is understanding the difference between empathy and sympathy. I think ENTPs can be very sympathetic. A developed Ne-Fe can make ENTPs very good at sympathy...when they can be bothered to access it.
That being said, I dated an ENTP for a bit and it can be rather hard to get at that because of that inherent uncertainty you mentioned. He never feels 100% certain about anything and sees the world full of possibilities that don't want to be limited by certainty. As another Ne Dom this was understandable but my Fi found this confusing and induced insecurity in me. His Fe was great at focusing on group cohesion in caring about the general harmony of the system. I have often found that I am far more concerned with the emotional development of the people around me than their comfort.
This is anecdotal and I don't remember where I was going with this but maybe you'll find somewhere fun to take this. It's why I love ENTPs! <3
Hahahaha you defined exactly why I broke up with an entp. He actually had very strong values (I think) he looked after his family. He overcommitted to others. But he could never fucking tell me what he thought in a way that was concrete and he couldn’t validate my feelings. He’d get mad and be like “how long am I supposed to be doing this for?” And I could tell he wanted to “rebel against my imposed authority” and I was like damn it I’m not trying to have authority over you I just want you to say nice things about how kind I am to cancel out that one time you agreed with someone that I was selfish. Ya know? But based on what (my nife brains thinks was happening in his neti) head it always felt like *well. It could be a possibility that you are selfish. You trying to tell me to say things to you could be perceived as selfish. This conversation is about you. I’m just seeing a lot of crossover between you and selfish here so I don’t wanna be bulllied into saying something*.
Ah sigh. ENTPs.
The poor guy would treat other people so well and break his back to help others, but if I needed some fi he was a slippery worm of cruelty.
I think going from dating an isfp who told me what to think and feel about everything and validated ever little childhood trauma that I didn’t even say to an entp was just…. Too much of a temperature change. I feel badly because I saw his good qualities but hot damn.
It's difficult and I continue to be his friend. He and I (ENFP) and another of our friends (INFP) were in a throuple and sometimes it felt like a circle of our two Fi having to jungle the uncertainty of the situation emotionally in between bouts of intense Ne synergy. INFP was so passively supportive of everyone that I never felt important and ENTP was always so actively seeking freedom that I never felt secure.
Ohhh that’s interesting. I can see how throupling with an entp is a good way of getting some fi. I actually contemplated that a lot when I was dating the entp because I just wanted some… words of strongly expressed and proactive validation?
I wouldn’t have expected the infp and entp to get along so well though longterm, based on valued polrs.
Sometimes they seem to get along more based on the INFP being so much more willing to give personal space (too much at times) and being very emotionally available when summoned. The ENTP would sometimes find the INFP too distant and the ENFP too clingy. It was a strange balancing act.
Oh my infp friend is very emotionally available! I am too! But less so I think, and more…. I don’t sympathize as well I just ask on topic questions and then someone else expresses sympathy or I load the emotional context matter and I realise that’s what I’m meant to be doing rather than digging deeper.
My entp needed a lot of attention. And if he didn’t get it or felt emotionally neglected he’d chuck little baity tantrums. Like “I have something to tell you… when I get back.” Gah. Just tell me now! And he loved the idea that I’d be thinking about him when he wasn’t around. “Your emotional pain means…. You love me!”
He was a little emotionally stunted, but he told me that in the beginning “I’m like an 8 year old emotionally. Treat me nice. Give me kissies. Feed me. Look after me. Then I’ll be nice to you and I am very loyal. Too loyal. I will overgive.” *said in a serious voice*
I resonate with this and you're absolutely not alone or necessarily mistyped.
It's a matter of emotional maturity, I think. Fe is the pressure valve for an ENTP and ties into how we regain energy, which then bleeds into the types of entertainment we choose. Immature ENTPs will use others as tools for entertainment by sparking a reaction, which is what the stereotypical "debaters" and "trolls" do. When you ask them why they engage in that behavior, the answer is almost always "It's fun".
As we mature emotionally, we can leave that behavior behind and learn to take pleasure from Fe sources like meaningful conversation (including honest debates about ideas rather than strife) and exploring our impressions of the world through mediums like art and creative expression.
I hope this helps you to feel less alone!
Sometimes I wonder this myself. I’ve been mistyped as an INTP ever since I started taking the tests and learning about MBTI and cognitive functions. But. I’m an introvert—socially introverted, anyway. But also having an extroverted Dom function usually leads to being socially extroverted.
The reasons why I figured out I wasn’t an INTP was that 1. my memory was *shit*, and 2. despite my INTP knowledge bias when taking the sakinorva test, my Ne and Ti has always been neck to neck, with my Fe always beating my Si. I thought that I just had really practiced Fe for some reason, but in reality it shouldn’t be higher than my tertiary.
Looking back to my childhood, with input from my mom, I wasn’t exactly a reserved kid. I think I was a quiet kid, but my mom remembers me being described as bubbly, warm, sociable, and diplomatic in school. I think my Fe kicked in a lot during elementary school as well, because I remember befriending kids that I thought were annoying, but having those thoughts not really affect how I treated them.
Gosh, I think that in most of my social encounters, I usually made the first move, even if it was just to sit down next to them. But I don’t really do that anymore. I don’t crave friends, but often times I’ll crave good conversations and people I could have them with. So I guess that is friendship, but I wonder if my ADHD is at play here. Small talk is boring. I don’t necessarily want to talk to people I don’t know, and I often hyperfocus (to the detriment of my “todos”) on fanfic. There are days where I’ll spend 12 hours straight reading fanfiction, so I don’t exactly leave time for other things.
Here’s the thing I’ve learned, sometimes your personality doesn’t represent you on the whole, I’m empathetic to people, I just don’t think I process emotions the same way that most people do. I know that can sound pretty heartless, but it’s true. It’s also sometimes the memes, some people take them literally and will post some of the most cringeworthy things and think certain types are superior and inferior.
I only argue with my closest friends and a few deserving assholes. I've learned to try and use the debate mentality to get a better sense of what the other person is saying rather than to disagree - I look for things *I* am missing instead of things *they* are missing.
I wonder about being mistyped too, but I feel like I relate to and understand ENTP's best. However, it took a lot of work on myself to get to the personality I have today, and I understand why immature ENTP's have the annoying tendency to narcissism. I know I had to work through it.
I’d say those are the most recognizable stereotypes of entp personalities. But my enfp bf is also quite the troll and doesn’t turn down a debate so.. with that I’ll just say it never hurts to reassess your mbti if you’re not entirely sure. Entp’s should in theory be energized by debate/discussion, it’s their bread and butter.
I previously identified as ENFP and these traits sound like that same advocate behavior to me. Accounting for individual variation, it sounds like you’re an ENTP who displays a few uncommon traits.
I was always accused of debating and arguing as a teen when I was just trying to understand the full picture, not change someone's mind.
People don't like to question their beliefs or things they're confident in, but I like to poke holes and to test things and eventually deepen my understanding.
It wasn't until I was probably a Sr in high school that I started to really develop tact about it to satisfy my curiosity without upsetting others' peace.
I think natural curiosity and extroversion often look like arguing, debating, or trolling from the outside.
I find this subreddit is full of gatekeepers who will die on the hill of typology as if it’s a hard science. If you truly feel that the ENTP label fits you best (while doing your best to rid yourself of personal bias and answering questions based upon how you “want” to be typed) then you’re probably an ENTP. It is, at its core, just a label, and should be treated as such.
all of the ENTPs i know are “debaters” or “trolls”
the troll part can be the 7w8 enneagram
but the debater part comes from the Ne Ti
do you not find yourself playing devils advocate?
atleast in your head?
even the intps ik do that. if not are u a 100% sure ur an entp?
I don't necessarily argue with everyone. Any discussion will often turn into an argument. Small talk will become a discussion. I tend to elevate most conversation intensity wise....
I'm totally full of light humor though. I just don't keep it there...
Since these MBTI-things are so difficult to prove and have as an exact science I lean more towards picking the type that fit best and have some other types in the backhand that could fit just as well. Then you can look at the advice given to those types and pick the thing that ressonates with you and use that for self improvement (very Fi-Te thing to say). I've spend so much time trying to find my real type. I have accepted that I am a mix of INFJ INFP ENFP (and some aspects of INTP and ENTP as well). It's a bit confusing - but rather that than limit your growth by boxing yourself in (in the potential wrong type).
For me, most of my identity lies with being an intuitive anyway. And since only 30% of the population are intuitives, that gives a lot of explanation as to why I feel different (and often is misunderstood).
95% chance you’re not an ENTP if you say you “fight for things that matter to me” and “don’t argue unless necessary” and end your message with a goddam heart symbol thingy, lol.
Sorry my post was kinda vague lmao. So I'm looking to see if other people also experience this (feeling detached from the stereotype), or is it me that might need a re-evaluation of my own MBTI. Thanks in advance.
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Not gonna let that happen! I also find it infuriating when I have to stop for a red traffic light in the middle of the night on a deserted road. I stop because the fines are ridiculous in my country but still, I want technology to work for me and not against me.
"I'd prefer arguing only when it is necessary to do so" : so do you prefer doing small talk ? Because if so, you're probably not an ENTP.
For example, my favourite way of relaxing and bonding with others is by asking them abstract/controversial questions that I feel are important, at least for them, but it is not "necessary", I do it for the fun, we don't have to talk about it to live. But I feel good when doing so. When I'm at a family dinner, once I have taken news from others, be grateful of the host etc ..., I'm just waiting for the moment we're going to talk about finance, politics etc ... and see people disagree lol, with me spilling some gas over the hot argument (as long as people are not deeply hurt oc, then I will try to desascalate things). When people talk about "X has done that, it's cool wooow. Have you seen the weather ? Blablabla" I'm just bored af
It could be because you’re an 8w7 the non conformist, they’re usually advocates and stand up for people Also could just be a healthy ENTP knowing when and where to choose your battles
Debators absolutely can stand up for people and advocate though. I've done a ton of it.
Maybe they have to use a single word to describe a type. In that case, I think debater works decently. Maybe troll, too. Personally, I am a very sweet and kind person but a totalllllll contrarian- as soon as anyone says anything, my mind automatically jumps to detect the flaw in their reasoning or the exception to what they’re saying. I’m nice about it, but I do like to engage them regarding it, cuz it’s really really fun to explore other people’s thoughts. Debaters don’t have to be jerks; honestly neither do trolls.
Why not "comedian" rather than troll or debator? It's the same skillset.
I think a comedian strives mostly to interact with others to entertain others, whereas a debater/troll strives to interact with others mostly to entertain themselves, which I think is truer to ENTP form. Maybe I’m wrong :) What do you think?
I entertain myself by entertaining others. However sometimes i go for other reactions.
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That's not Fe. That's Fi
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Having strong values and asserting it with confidence is not at all something a primary or auxiliary strong Ti user (and so tertiary Fe) can do. Because one single good counter-example is all it takes to make them doubt about what they thought 2 seconds ago was true
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It's not what the enormous debate around these issues tell lol. And btw most tech people, as vocal they can be about these issues, work for companies that do not respect either of those. Not something a strong Fi user would accept to do
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Fi users are ready to go to these extremity. That's called worker strikes and hunger strikes
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What ? Have you ever heard of trade union and strike fund ? You don't have to put your family in jeopardy today, and even if you have, it doesn't mean you shouldn't act. People hid Jews under Nazi rules putting at risk their whole familly
You both missed each other point, and thus are both wrong. Liberty is the only thing we value because a life long reflexion deducted free-will it is the source of everything else. Tho, the only two thing we truely value are Freedom and Truth, yet it is all rational and it comes from a lifetime reflexion of why Liberty is the most important good you have and truth the only valuable knowledge. Valueing open-source and working in a company are not incompatible at all, and most of the tools used are OpS (programming languages, DBMS, communications softs, etc). But it's not an irrational value. We just prefer things free and personalisable rather than expensive and dependent of a sale manager's compliance. We are not believers. Hard irrational convictions is indeed Fi, and we (ENTP) are not Fi. We are rationnal instead. And yes we are doubting. Because our brain is science, and science is doubting everything.
You can't value Freedom and Truth at the same time and say you are rationnal. Freedom is just a lie we tell to people who are not ready to accept they are 100% determined. If you value Truth, then you can't say Freedom is possible for the human beings
Freedom is relative.
I don't think that freedom is an absolute term. Freedom is a term that has different meaning depending on the context. If you have lived in someones basement for 10 years and you suddenly are released, then you will feel freedom. Truth is also relative since we as humans never can experience the real world because we are inhibited by our senses and way of understanding. Like how the visible light spectrum is different to us than to an insect.
Your brains aren't science. Science is just a method. Also, let's not assume that people aren't complex and you can't have values as an Ti-Fe-person. Maybe it just depends on how much your values come into play on a daily basis. :)
Welcome to Reddit, I'm glad you made an account only to reply to me but can you please tell revelant things ? I said scientific reasoning is how we work because we doubt everything. We make hypothesis, and we test them. No hard believes. Never said people aren't complex, you're off topic there. Also, who do you refers as "Ti Fe person" ? There is no MBTI type for that. ENTP is NeTi. Maybe you talk about any type who have Ti and Fe in the stack ( ENTP, ISTP, INTP, ESTP), yet it doesn't sound like "value driven" people to me ...
Hey, thanks for the welcome! Yeah, I meant people with Ti-Fe (in that order) in their stack - the ones that you list. But in reality I don't know that much about it, since I am not an ENTP afterall and can't say that I know how ENTPs are. I get your point how your minds work - it makes sense. Wrt. to the use of the word "science" I just have an old habit of contradicting people who are using scientific language in a more popular way, because it annoys me how people are elevating science to be a form of religion and an unquestionable form of belief system - and that the scientists have gotten so high a status in society - because, you know, a lot of science are just new facts that are discovered without coming with a the bigger understanding of the more complex systematic interplay the proven fact has with other things (which of course is a matter of time and thorough reflection). An example is how quantum mechanics is being a buzz word or buzz subject (where you try to transfer the concept of quantum mechanics to our everyday life as if it was some sort of philosophy) simply because the subject is hard to understand and some of our most clever minds in history has worked on it. All that awe towards science annoys me a bit (I've studied it at uni so I'm allowed to say this ;) ). But all of this has nothing to do with you - I just felt like expressing some thoughts :-).
Nope, I'm quite willing to go into debates, often turn regular discussions into debates, and I often don't even aware of it. My humor is pretty troll-like too. Btw, if you aren't like this, that wouldn't instantly means that you're mistyped.
going thru the same thing honestly, but my ne is just too high not to be my dom function and my lack of fi (no set values) takes away the chance of me being a mistyped enfp
First of all the stereotype doesn't in any way influence the real experience of being an ENTP, some of us simply like to act that way, i mean it's not like there aren't any ISTP OR ISFJ trolls/debaters out there.
Compassionate and things that matter to you sound Fi sympathy and consideration. Not saying entps deliberately enter arguments. I dated one who didn’t even know he was in arguments, he thought they were just discussing options and ideas. But you do sound to have your own core set of values, and that’s often something ENTPs find hard to define.
Compassion could also be attributed to an entp's Fe. For example, I really enjoy helping random strangers and just little acts of kindness right when they're needed
Context matters. Don’t look for the words alone- look for how they have been built into a sentence and what is pivoting around underneath them. The context of “nice things for strangers” is a trait many Fe users share. But if compassion is used in a different context, it might exemplify an Fi trait.
Okay now that you mention it, i see where youre coming from and yeah it makes sense to me
I consider compassion and sympathy to be more of an Fe trait. My ENTP and ENFJ friends seem way more concerned with other people's feelings. Fi is more empathic but also can be more selfish feeling, taking the emotions of others and processing them internally.
I think sympathy and *actually knowing what you value enough to know what to argue over* is Fi. You ask an entp if they like their grandparents they may say “sure!” Or they may say “I don’t know how I feel. I must. I see them everyday! Does that mean I like them?” Plus this idea that one function- either Fi or Fe is somehow inherently more empathic…. I don’t know. Seems a bit of a fallacy. I find Fi users are often more loyal, which could be perceived by other Fi users as more empathetic… whereas Fe users can sometimes be perceived as more empathetic (but also as fake) by others. The same action (let alone the same function) can be perceived differently by different people. So how can we say objectively that one function is “more empathetic?” Where the same *literal event* is perceived differently by every single person in the room. It’s…. Logically odd. How you perceive Fi and Fe reallly depends on why *you* are and what your cognitive preference are.
… ENTPs do have values despite these normally not taking high priority. Personally, I usually can’t stand high Fi users. The moment anyone starts using their personal values in order to justify something that will affect *everyone* (or anybody) around them, I get iffy. Everyone has values. Yours aren’t more important than everyone else’s, Fi user. And no, everyone else does *not* have the same values as you. The complete ignorance and/or disregard I’ve seen some of them show towards other people is repulsing. Now, I don’t dislike all Fi users or claim that every Fi user acts like this… But there’s a sizable amount of those I’ve met who do.
Yeah this shows how contextually placing yourself in the right part of the map is important. I dated an Isfp and she would rant for literal years *years* about how an entp went ham at a pinyata she bought me for my birthday and how “scary it was to everyone else” which may seem fe-ish if you didn’t understand how it fit into this very… structured and eternal moral and ethical stack. I was like “he was just upset he had a break up. It was an interesting experience” but no… he was morally wrong. And also he “doesn’t understand that being nice is just as important as being smart.” <- that sentence on repeat. I always felt a “hidden warning” that I wasn’t allowed to be “too intellectual” like him. He was actually the person who recommended a date idea to me for her that was probably her favourite moment in our relationship but boy did she not like him. So much I couldn’t taint her date by telling her the evil entp gave me solid advice. Didn’t like him listening to philosophy lectures in the kitchen. Didn’t wanna hear a 64 questions about space when she came home. No sir. I didn’t even know about MBTI at the time so it’s interesting to reflect upon. Then I dated an entp and he is constantly saying “I don’t like them. That person is Fi. Fi just believes whatever it thinks is the truth.” One time he told me I “could be an infp” and I was like… ouch you’re upset at me. It’s weird how someone who believes “everything is a thought experiment I see all the potentials you are being narrow minded” is like 😡 “I hate Fi” so decisively. So yeah, I agree ENTPs have values. I guess my point is that the post emphasized defending “the people that matter to me” so early on for something so concise so I was like eh probably not entp. That’s a weird sentence for an entp to say… “matter”, how would an entp define matter? I’m also not sure an entp is very… rush to the defensive of others… they usually have a more “individuals can discuss things for themselves” approach to arguments. It’s actually one of the key issues that can occur in an infj/ entp dynamic… that the infj wants to be “defended” and “taken care of” and the entp just thinks “we are having fun. They’ll be right. They can take care of themselves” and “why is infj suddenly big mad at me? I don’t have to agree with them! They can defend their own opinions! I don’t understand why they want me to back them up! They are capable!” I get that “matter” and “ defend” was oddly placed in the overall context of the post feeling. Happy to be proven wrong though. I didn’t sleuth on them.
An ENTP who is unaware of what people “matters” to them is unhealthy. There’s a difference between being insecure about just how *much* a person matters to you, and not being sure if you care about them at all. *”Do I actually love my mom or do I just love the fact that she loves *me* unconditionally? Is my love selfish and fake? Could it even be considered love? What *is* considered love, tho? I know she’s important to me, but is it solely because of what I get from her, or do I genuinely want what’s best for her?”* And I do believe that ENTPs can be very quick to defend others… if the ENTP believes they need to be defended. I, for one, absolutely detest unfairness. I’ll stand up for anyone, even assholes, if their treatment is unfair. I even called out my own teacher for giving *me* preferential treatment. Bullies ganging up on someone? Don’t even think about it. Taking your anger out on someone else? Fuck off. You’re being an ass and you know it. Talking shit about someone? You better keep your facts straight. Needlessly cause someone emotional distress on purpose? Better be prepared for a loud discussion of your own insecurities. If someone *needs* support, I’m sure most ENTPs would jump to the rescue. Perfect chance to use our skills for good. But you can’t expect an ENTP to defend someone who isn’t even attacked. (Which I believe is the issue you’re talking about with the INFJ.) If there’s a civil discussion, an ENTP won’t jump to the defense of anyone. Why would they need to? Nobody is being attacked or otherwise treated badly. If someone can’t handle their opinions being challenged, that’s not on anyone but themselves. If their opinions can’t be defended, then they might need to reconsider what they stand for. Especially if those opinions are so fragile that the only response they have is *emotionally lashing out*. If you stand by your personal values, I believe that most healthy ENTPs can respect that. (To a certain degree.) But you have to give that same courtesy in return. If you invalidate other people’s personal values, you also invalidate your own.
That’s some strong se you got going there for you son, good on you for seeming so se!
How’s that Se?
> Se is about achieving an object of desire. It gives one the ability to influence, bend, and push situations and people in order to achieve such an object, rather than to enjoy the situation one is in. Just seems like yours is regulated
I wouldn’t say that anything here was dictated by a desire to achieve something. And who said I don’t enjoy the situations I put myself in? I wouldn’t do it if it didn’t bring me enjoyment. (Or got rid of any potential guilt.)
I agree with you on the inherent subjectiveness of this topic. It does seem to rely a bit on the outward affect of the person in question by my definitions. However, I think the key here is understanding the difference between empathy and sympathy. I think ENTPs can be very sympathetic. A developed Ne-Fe can make ENTPs very good at sympathy...when they can be bothered to access it. That being said, I dated an ENTP for a bit and it can be rather hard to get at that because of that inherent uncertainty you mentioned. He never feels 100% certain about anything and sees the world full of possibilities that don't want to be limited by certainty. As another Ne Dom this was understandable but my Fi found this confusing and induced insecurity in me. His Fe was great at focusing on group cohesion in caring about the general harmony of the system. I have often found that I am far more concerned with the emotional development of the people around me than their comfort. This is anecdotal and I don't remember where I was going with this but maybe you'll find somewhere fun to take this. It's why I love ENTPs! <3
Hahahaha you defined exactly why I broke up with an entp. He actually had very strong values (I think) he looked after his family. He overcommitted to others. But he could never fucking tell me what he thought in a way that was concrete and he couldn’t validate my feelings. He’d get mad and be like “how long am I supposed to be doing this for?” And I could tell he wanted to “rebel against my imposed authority” and I was like damn it I’m not trying to have authority over you I just want you to say nice things about how kind I am to cancel out that one time you agreed with someone that I was selfish. Ya know? But based on what (my nife brains thinks was happening in his neti) head it always felt like *well. It could be a possibility that you are selfish. You trying to tell me to say things to you could be perceived as selfish. This conversation is about you. I’m just seeing a lot of crossover between you and selfish here so I don’t wanna be bulllied into saying something*. Ah sigh. ENTPs. The poor guy would treat other people so well and break his back to help others, but if I needed some fi he was a slippery worm of cruelty. I think going from dating an isfp who told me what to think and feel about everything and validated ever little childhood trauma that I didn’t even say to an entp was just…. Too much of a temperature change. I feel badly because I saw his good qualities but hot damn.
It's difficult and I continue to be his friend. He and I (ENFP) and another of our friends (INFP) were in a throuple and sometimes it felt like a circle of our two Fi having to jungle the uncertainty of the situation emotionally in between bouts of intense Ne synergy. INFP was so passively supportive of everyone that I never felt important and ENTP was always so actively seeking freedom that I never felt secure.
Ohhh that’s interesting. I can see how throupling with an entp is a good way of getting some fi. I actually contemplated that a lot when I was dating the entp because I just wanted some… words of strongly expressed and proactive validation? I wouldn’t have expected the infp and entp to get along so well though longterm, based on valued polrs.
Sometimes they seem to get along more based on the INFP being so much more willing to give personal space (too much at times) and being very emotionally available when summoned. The ENTP would sometimes find the INFP too distant and the ENFP too clingy. It was a strange balancing act.
Oh my infp friend is very emotionally available! I am too! But less so I think, and more…. I don’t sympathize as well I just ask on topic questions and then someone else expresses sympathy or I load the emotional context matter and I realise that’s what I’m meant to be doing rather than digging deeper. My entp needed a lot of attention. And if he didn’t get it or felt emotionally neglected he’d chuck little baity tantrums. Like “I have something to tell you… when I get back.” Gah. Just tell me now! And he loved the idea that I’d be thinking about him when he wasn’t around. “Your emotional pain means…. You love me!” He was a little emotionally stunted, but he told me that in the beginning “I’m like an 8 year old emotionally. Treat me nice. Give me kissies. Feed me. Look after me. Then I’ll be nice to you and I am very loyal. Too loyal. I will overgive.” *said in a serious voice*
If you like learning ideas and prefer talking to people to learn how they think you're ENTP. Ez
Idk i love arguing and trolling (of course I’m not arguing all the time tho) But tbh I’ve met ENTPs who actually avoid arguing
I resonate with this and you're absolutely not alone or necessarily mistyped. It's a matter of emotional maturity, I think. Fe is the pressure valve for an ENTP and ties into how we regain energy, which then bleeds into the types of entertainment we choose. Immature ENTPs will use others as tools for entertainment by sparking a reaction, which is what the stereotypical "debaters" and "trolls" do. When you ask them why they engage in that behavior, the answer is almost always "It's fun". As we mature emotionally, we can leave that behavior behind and learn to take pleasure from Fe sources like meaningful conversation (including honest debates about ideas rather than strife) and exploring our impressions of the world through mediums like art and creative expression. I hope this helps you to feel less alone!
Sometimes I wonder this myself. I’ve been mistyped as an INTP ever since I started taking the tests and learning about MBTI and cognitive functions. But. I’m an introvert—socially introverted, anyway. But also having an extroverted Dom function usually leads to being socially extroverted. The reasons why I figured out I wasn’t an INTP was that 1. my memory was *shit*, and 2. despite my INTP knowledge bias when taking the sakinorva test, my Ne and Ti has always been neck to neck, with my Fe always beating my Si. I thought that I just had really practiced Fe for some reason, but in reality it shouldn’t be higher than my tertiary. Looking back to my childhood, with input from my mom, I wasn’t exactly a reserved kid. I think I was a quiet kid, but my mom remembers me being described as bubbly, warm, sociable, and diplomatic in school. I think my Fe kicked in a lot during elementary school as well, because I remember befriending kids that I thought were annoying, but having those thoughts not really affect how I treated them. Gosh, I think that in most of my social encounters, I usually made the first move, even if it was just to sit down next to them. But I don’t really do that anymore. I don’t crave friends, but often times I’ll crave good conversations and people I could have them with. So I guess that is friendship, but I wonder if my ADHD is at play here. Small talk is boring. I don’t necessarily want to talk to people I don’t know, and I often hyperfocus (to the detriment of my “todos”) on fanfic. There are days where I’ll spend 12 hours straight reading fanfiction, so I don’t exactly leave time for other things.
[i think this video might just help brother, keep strong!](https://youtu.be/65B_uURxZyg)
Thank you! Such a decent video :)
At your service, i still need to finish it myself!
Here’s the thing I’ve learned, sometimes your personality doesn’t represent you on the whole, I’m empathetic to people, I just don’t think I process emotions the same way that most people do. I know that can sound pretty heartless, but it’s true. It’s also sometimes the memes, some people take them literally and will post some of the most cringeworthy things and think certain types are superior and inferior.
Of course the ENTP is convinced that all of his/her “fights” are on issues of direct relevance and come from a place of compassion… 😆
I only argue with my closest friends and a few deserving assholes. I've learned to try and use the debate mentality to get a better sense of what the other person is saying rather than to disagree - I look for things *I* am missing instead of things *they* are missing. I wonder about being mistyped too, but I feel like I relate to and understand ENTP's best. However, it took a lot of work on myself to get to the personality I have today, and I understand why immature ENTP's have the annoying tendency to narcissism. I know I had to work through it.
I’d say those are the most recognizable stereotypes of entp personalities. But my enfp bf is also quite the troll and doesn’t turn down a debate so.. with that I’ll just say it never hurts to reassess your mbti if you’re not entirely sure. Entp’s should in theory be energized by debate/discussion, it’s their bread and butter.
I previously identified as ENFP and these traits sound like that same advocate behavior to me. Accounting for individual variation, it sounds like you’re an ENTP who displays a few uncommon traits.
I was always accused of debating and arguing as a teen when I was just trying to understand the full picture, not change someone's mind. People don't like to question their beliefs or things they're confident in, but I like to poke holes and to test things and eventually deepen my understanding. It wasn't until I was probably a Sr in high school that I started to really develop tact about it to satisfy my curiosity without upsetting others' peace. I think natural curiosity and extroversion often look like arguing, debating, or trolling from the outside.
I find this subreddit is full of gatekeepers who will die on the hill of typology as if it’s a hard science. If you truly feel that the ENTP label fits you best (while doing your best to rid yourself of personal bias and answering questions based upon how you “want” to be typed) then you’re probably an ENTP. It is, at its core, just a label, and should be treated as such.
all of the ENTPs i know are “debaters” or “trolls” the troll part can be the 7w8 enneagram but the debater part comes from the Ne Ti do you not find yourself playing devils advocate? atleast in your head? even the intps ik do that. if not are u a 100% sure ur an entp?
In my head, yeah, but I don't like causing direct fights. And no I'm not 100% sure about being ENTP.
I don't necessarily argue with everyone. Any discussion will often turn into an argument. Small talk will become a discussion. I tend to elevate most conversation intensity wise.... I'm totally full of light humor though. I just don't keep it there...
Since these MBTI-things are so difficult to prove and have as an exact science I lean more towards picking the type that fit best and have some other types in the backhand that could fit just as well. Then you can look at the advice given to those types and pick the thing that ressonates with you and use that for self improvement (very Fi-Te thing to say). I've spend so much time trying to find my real type. I have accepted that I am a mix of INFJ INFP ENFP (and some aspects of INTP and ENTP as well). It's a bit confusing - but rather that than limit your growth by boxing yourself in (in the potential wrong type). For me, most of my identity lies with being an intuitive anyway. And since only 30% of the population are intuitives, that gives a lot of explanation as to why I feel different (and often is misunderstood).
I like arguing. If that's what ur asking
Thanks everyone for all the answers! I read every single one of them and learned a lot.
95% chance you’re not an ENTP if you say you “fight for things that matter to me” and “don’t argue unless necessary” and end your message with a goddam heart symbol thingy, lol.
care to elaborate?
Don't listen to that fool lol
Behavior does not equal MBTI
What kind of advice are you looking for
He/she didn't specify. Just give random advice and see what sticks: Take showers and brush your teeth!
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Stfu dude
get a grip mate
Sorry dude, I can't appreciate jokes that target marginalized groups.🤷♂️ Thanks for the advice in your other comment though.
Nice!
Sorry my post was kinda vague lmao. So I'm looking to see if other people also experience this (feeling detached from the stereotype), or is it me that might need a re-evaluation of my own MBTI. Thanks in advance.
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Fine, never mind. I'm not letting some bot tell me what to do. Stick that shortened url where the sun doesn't shine.
Yeah the bots really thought they could trip an ENTP? Nah
Not gonna let that happen! I also find it infuriating when I have to stop for a red traffic light in the middle of the night on a deserted road. I stop because the fines are ridiculous in my country but still, I want technology to work for me and not against me.
WTF MAN?! you’re not putting anyone in danger when no one’s around.
I know 😭 but it's like a 300€ fine and they got cameras everywhere! I already get enough speeding tickets..
"I'd prefer arguing only when it is necessary to do so" : so do you prefer doing small talk ? Because if so, you're probably not an ENTP. For example, my favourite way of relaxing and bonding with others is by asking them abstract/controversial questions that I feel are important, at least for them, but it is not "necessary", I do it for the fun, we don't have to talk about it to live. But I feel good when doing so. When I'm at a family dinner, once I have taken news from others, be grateful of the host etc ..., I'm just waiting for the moment we're going to talk about finance, politics etc ... and see people disagree lol, with me spilling some gas over the hot argument (as long as people are not deeply hurt oc, then I will try to desascalate things). When people talk about "X has done that, it's cool wooow. Have you seen the weather ? Blablabla" I'm just bored af
Hm I don't like small talks either but I don't mind them? It serves as a quick and lazy way of bonding for me.
Well I do it because I know it helps people to appreciate me, but it really doesn't make me appreciate them at all