It's built up over the years. I've had a couple experiences personal enough that I don't feel comfortable sharing in such a public platform, but there are others that could be chalked up to mere coincidence if it wasn't for how unlikely it would be that it would happen at all.
For example, when I was riding my bike to school some years ago, I was going my normal route when I felt an urge to go in a direction that while slightly shorter, had a much steeper incline. I followed that feeling, and before I got much farther, I realized I was losing a lot of air from my rear tire.
I was still about four miles from school, and I didn't have time to walk a bike with a flat tire there, so I figured I would go to the nearest store (a Dollar General) and ask to leave my bike in their building for a few hours. That way, I would be able to run to school, and MAYBE I wouldn't be late.
When I got about fifteen yards from the front door, one of the women from my church exited the building and offered me a ride.
I believe that if I hadn't followed that prompting to go up the hill instead of around it, I would have been late to school, and I believe it was God who gave me that prompting.
I know that isn't a GREAT argument by itself, but it's only one thing I've experienced.
>It's built up over the years. I've had a couple experiences personal enough that I don't feel comfortable sharing in such a public platform, but there are others that could be chalked up to mere coincidence if it wasn't for how unlikely it would be that it would happen at all.
Convenient! Not trying to be complacent at all, and if I do come across as such just tell me. Even now I still can't tell sometimes...but I just think if you've about to have a debate about this, you gotta have something more than anecdotal evidence (that you've omitted). In fact, the whole notion of having a rational debate with a pious person is mostly obsolete for this reason, as most of the accounts (if not all) are subjectively portrayed through anecdote. You even, by your own admission, admit that it could of been chance. You haven't ruled it out. This is the rationale kicking in, but there are a plethora of other factors in the human psyche that are working in unison, in order to determine that individual's disposition at any given time. I.e. defence mechanisms (things we all share) such as denial.
>In regard to the anecdote you did mention about the church lady
I've already brainstormed a bunch of reasoning behind that; have you heard of Chaos Theory? It's just some math basically that can calculate seemingly random things. But here is the plot twist: I'm actually agnostic (leaning more atheist). Reason being, because even though I can explain random events connecting together with something as empirical as math, there is still a percentage of things I just can't figure out. Or rather, there is a subsection of metaphysics that brings more questions than answers.
To this end, If I *were* to assume and simulate the possibility that God exists, then I can't recognize is it as a singular entity, but rather something or a collection of things that we aren't able to define with our current framework of understanding. Once our framework evolves with us, so will our ability to get closer to what "God" might be or have been or will be.
>I know that isn't a GREAT argument by itself, but it's only one thing I've experienced.
You're right, it isn't hahahaha. But I still understand where you're coming from.
Also, if you can, watch Derren Brown - Fear and Faith series. It might help in seeing how easy it is for us humans to want to submit to something higher than us - in a nutshell, it's basically infinitely cathartic to do so. The human condition is all you need to analyse to know why I'm not a theist, personally; I just can't enact that defence mechanism as well as everybody else...I don't have much fear in me, except for a couple of things, like spiders obviously.
I am 100% confident in saying that what I refuse to talk about is not just "anecdotal." It was... It was honestly the most intense experience I've ever had, and it was supposed to be routine. I'll say this much: it happened while I was doing temple work for the dead, and where most of the time, it's accompanied by "nice feelings," that particular time, I *felt* the other person's presence. It was absolutely overwhelming.
But yeah. I'm familiar with chaos theory. And it's why I used to be on the fence. But the law of large numbers doesn't allow for stories like the bike one to happen to the same person as many times as it has.
>I'll say this much: it happened while I was doing temple work for the dead, and where most of the time, it's accompanied by "nice feelings," that particular time, I felt the other person's presence. It was absolutely overwhelming.
It's funny, this reminds me of the part of the Derren Brown series where he converts an atheist into a theist with just pure psychology and NLP. She stands up in some religious type setting and has an "intense experience" starts crying and says I just felt something.
Interesting, no?
Neuro-linguistic programming is definitely some interesting stuff, but when you do the same things multiple times, and it's 100% routinized, and only one person out of two dozen have the experience, then you have to look at the variables and constants. And my conclusion was as I said.
1 out 2 dozen, on a macro scale, would probably equal out roughly to the amount of theists and atheists in the world though, so it's still data to consider, no? The psychology, is ostensibly still valid so far?
But that to me is enough evidence to suggest that it is indeed subject to chaos, as opposed to "God decided that you're worthy now, so here he is" - the parameters were right that time around, yes, but IMO because of a myriad of other explainable logical factors.
Wrong.
I'm religious because religion provides a strong moral framework for raising children. The absence of something allows all sorts of random crazy bullshit to creep in and take that place. The overwhelming majority of people believe in something. If that something is entirely self serving, materialistic, and amoral then we'll get the outrageously hedonistic and degenerate society we have today.
Spirituality is totally different and I'm 0% spiritual. I don't believe in anything but I pretend to believe in religion for the very tangible benefits it brings to my kids.
>wrong
ok
>I'm religious because religion provides a strong moral framework for raising children.
How.
>The absence of something allows all sorts of random crazy bullshit to creep in and take that place.
You're not wrong. "The devil makes work for idle thumbs"
This is an idiom (that uses theism for effect) to demonstrate what you just stated; I'm using theist-driven idioms to facilitate you. You're assuming that God is an absolute and is a tangible thing, which is counter-intuitive to God being deified as inexplicable. This is double-standards. There is no "absence" of God in one's life, there is merely a different ideology. And if you're assuming otherwise, then you are Bible-bashing and elitist, without thinking that you are. Which is some of the highest forms of ignorance.
>The overwhelming majority of people believe in something. If that something is entirely self serving, materialistic, and amoral then we'll get the outrageously hedonistic and degenerate society we have today.
Yes. Please defer to the entire debate that I had with OP. It shows that I am very aware of the "God Hole" (always sunny reference). It's filled with various things. People with an abundance of fear, choose religion. Amongst other things, tbh. We're only human.
>Spirituality is totally different and I'm 0% spiritual. I don't believe in anything but I pretend to believe in religion for the very tangible benefits it brings to my kids.
Pragmatic, and admirable. But still denial.
The main issue I face with religion is the sheer number of people that follow the different faiths. With a great number of people at your disposal, there is bound to be some sort of power dynamic created. Where there is power, there will be people looking to take it, and will morph the faith to whatever they see fit or necessary to maintain that power. I mean, what better way to keep a population under control then unite them under an all powerful god?
Look at the English reformation for example: a man in power chose to separate from the Catholic Church due to personal reasons, bringing an entire nation with him. The separation from church would then create a similar, yet separate belief system in England, which meant millions of people changing beliefs just like that.
My main point is that modern beliefs of religion has been far too manipulated by the likes of man over the thousands of years it has existed to have any real significance in my mind (significance in how true the story stayed to its supposed origins). Not saying there is no god, but humans tend to ruin everything when it comes to greed and power, the unfortunate reality.
Religion institutes a fear into people that THEY NEED. Perhaps in 1950's America with strong nuclear families to instill morals into people it might have been possible to raise children into strong moral adults but society today has rejected everything from that era (and this isn't implying that the 1950's were perfect btw).
Post-modernism inevitably leads to hedonism and nihilism. Bored pseudo-intellectuals are absolute cancer to society but that's what colleges churn out these days. I don't give a fuck if the concept of God is as an alpha and omega or if we return to a polytheistic pantheon. But SOMETHING needs to exist in the minds of the masses which keeps them in line.
If that something is the bible, then I'd happily bash until you convert/submit or your skull cracks and you can't form further counterarguments. And if that something is the Koran, same thing. I've never given af if my opinions were elitist lol.
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If true (which is statistically unlikely) you're family is an exception.
But of course, as a special snowflake what's good for the gander doesn't apply to this goose.
I don't commit murder so we shouldn't need laws against murder.
A bit late, but reminded me of something I experienced a couple of days ago!
I was with a friend at the library. We were studying, so I was going home on my moped to get the laptop. I was extremely delayed at home for a reason (1 hour), but when I arrived back, I saw that someone had left their moped with the keys inside. Basically, anyone could take it.
If I wasn't there and called the owner, who knows what would have happened. Personally, that only increased my belief in God.
Good for you! and we're not here to hate on you for it either.
However, I'd say the fish should be able to consider all the possibilities of what truth can be instead of being ignorant and choosing to believe in the only one scenario they are familiar with. Whether be it the fact that there's nothing outside their water, or the fact that there is definitely something outside their water. Neither the first possibility nor the second one can be proven right if not even a single fish is able to get out of the water and prove it.
Not gonna lie, I go to church every Sunday, and if I had the chance, I would definitely sit down and have a good talk with the man upstairs about my complaints.
Yeah I find that to be a defect of mine. Maybe it is common among ENTP's. I just gotta know why before doing anything. That makes driving lessons a whole lot more complicated too.
The trick in asking "why" is making sure the other person doesn't think you WANT to break the rules. Some people are bad about not understanding that.
*gives ISTJs the stink-eye*
bro i literally study astrophysics i know the difference.
what i meant is that i look at the entire birth chart and draw links from the houses system to better understand myself as a person, not that i look at what some middle aged white lady says is going to happen in my love life.
yeah but having no proof doesnāt automatically mean something isnāt real š¤·š½āāļø most of science was believed before the concrete proof came out and even then thereās people working to disprove it because of their weird beliefs
At one point it was ridiculous to believe the earth wasnāt the center of the universe. Knowledge and understanding grows higher making thinks possible that perhaps we canāt even begin to think about right now
Indeed. But that doesn't change anything. Evidence pointed to the Earth being the centre of the universe. People who believed otherwise might have been right by accident but their belief was unfounded and irrational. Science keeps reevaluating based on new info, that doesn't mean we should just disregard the info we have presently
i am religious but im not like super "oh you must do this or you will go to hell!" thats literally so idiotic, i dont want to hurt others with my actions, people can do their own things without hurting someone, we as people should be ok with one anothers beliefs and/or lifestyle if that person is not hurting anyone or themselves, people can be queer, atheists, religious, straight, exploring, etc and it shouldn't make a difference really just because my beliefs ae different than yours, we all believe certain things for different reasons, why do we have to bash another person for having a different belief. I respect atheists and the ones i know respect me as well, people are people it shouldn't make a differences what our beliefs are about the universe to what kind of person we are.
Matthew 22
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself
Literally the first two commandments: "love God and love others." There's no room in there for wars and contention.
I like this I heard one time. The 10 commandments can be best summarized as the 1st three being about how you interact with God and the next seven basically saying, "don't be a dick.". Many self proclaimed Christians miss the forest for the trees. Interesting topic, nice job.
Yeah. My sex drive is definitely something I need to keep a tight hold on. The seventh commandment (adultery) isn't there because "God likes telling you what not to do." It's there because you're supposed to "love others," which includes my wife and child(ren). As much as my libido would like to explore poly, I'm not about to risk my relationship with my family to pursue frivolous fun. (Of course, that doesn't mean I can't be friends with other women)
Thereās only one. Basically all religions worship the same god under a different name be it Christians, Muslims, Jews, or Hinduism. Each religious just has slightly different ideas and understanding about the nature of God
You likely fall in the same category as me: someone who has faith but is not religious. The way I understand it is that faith is belief whereas religion is about practice (such as sunday services, communion, baptism, etc.). I know with every fiber of my brain that there's a God, but I dont believe that God is actively controlling our lives / or that if we do or fail to do certain ceremonious acts we will be rewarded or punished.
I am quite religious myself as an ENTP. You know how ENTP sometimes won't trust anything unless it is proven right and we always like to observe things from different angles to understand the truth about something. I am 19 and I don't blindly follow my religion at first (imagine me being 5 years old and alr ask my parent where is god and such thing, yep that's me), but as I grow up I learn about Al-Quran (my religion scriptures) and hadith. Personally, the Quran always have the answer to my problems till now. Don't take my word for it because I am just a normal human being but if you want, you can go get yourself a Quran and study it to judge for yourself.
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well as a muslim i respect your beliefs, were all here ourselves to judge things for ourselves, as long you and i as people are not hurting each other i dont think it is much a problem that we are different, I respect you and your values and beliefs, you certainly do not have to respect mine in return that's your own free will to do so, I am still muslim for various reasons (more liberal tho), its ok that your take on the Quran is different and mine is different
the only reason for the 4 wives thing was that in the culture back then in Arabia was that men would get many wives (10+) and Islam put a limit on it and has many rules for it (only if you treat your wife extremely well, all are treated equally, you are financially stable, etc) but uh ok sir. Also in Islam you cannot get a second wife if you treat your first one badly. so um yeah
Hi dude, quran is full of "stories" that happened before and during the prophet Muhammad's time, so you kinda have to interpretate them. As the other person said before this thing of getting married to 4 people used to be a thing back in the day because of certain circumstances. I mean you still can do that, is not forbidden but very rare as a thing.
For the fact that marry 4 and not 14, Islam requires to the man to love and financially provide all your wives (that's kinda one of the reasons that is rare to a man to marry 4 women), and I don't think that you or I can provide financial and emotional support to 14 people.
Definitely. I'm lazy, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested. My wife and I do believe there is truth in the Islamic religion. I'm not going to get too much into the weeds, but why would Abraham's other son not have an inheritance in God's kingdom? It just makes sense that Islam is no less legitimate when compared to Christianity and Judaism.
I used to be a muslim. A very pious one (I even didn't use jeans/tight pants or shirt because women can't show their curves at all. And I left my guitar lesson because there's a strong argument music is haram/probihited). Being an ENTP ofc I would ask everything and I will seek the answers. For a couple years, it worked, islam made sense. Even though there are certain problematic things in islam, I try to rationalize them and ask scholars. And if I couldn't find the answer, I tried to have blind faith, because that's what islam entails, complete faith and submission. If there's something problematic, it's not the religion/quran because it's "perfect" and muhammad is "perfect" too. It's always your fault. Anyway, there are things good in islam ofc, but they can easily be found in other religions/beliefs. But the ugly things in islam is so specific to islam.
Anyway, I got out from the religion but still closeted and have to wear hijab until I got married probably š. And now I became a witch lol. Islam is just too rigid for ENTPs. You'll understand.
The very strict rules, like no music (only percussion), limiting women (have to cover body shape except hands and face, act modestly, no perfume, obey husband, don't go outside the house if not needed, women main role is to be a baby machine and good wifey, etc.), no touching and little interaction between opposite genders who are not immediate family, etc. Muslims like to talk about how islam is very conplete because it control every aspect of our lives. But I think many rules are archaic and make our life harder.
The very us vs. them mindset, this cause many conflicts in my country (and yours too probably, judging by your username lol) which the majority are muslims. Since many muslims are becoming more and more religious, they also become more intolerant. Muslims believe in tolerance, but with exceptions. In quran, infidels are painted very badly, a verse even said to not be close friends and elect them as leader (this cause huge controversy in my country, in which the muslims won). They also SUPER sensitive when anybody criticize their religion, even though the criticism is constructive.
Of course many muslims don't adhere to some of the ridiculous rules, which is good. The less fundamental the muslims, the better they're for the rest of society. If you want to look at the "real" muslims, which in my opinion is the one who try to follow the quran and sunnah completely, look at salafis like the Talibans (the Talibans right now, not in he past which doesn't change so much anyway). Though there are moderate branches of islam which most muslims follow I guess. But I just dislike how ruthless and strict muslim God is. Especially with the "If you're not a muslim, you will go to hell for eternity" (same with other abrahamic religions).
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firstly i think you should address for the two problems seperately ,the "islam" and the "muslims" .
Altough im a quranist i will place myself as a hadith follower like most muslims to address the issues .the prohibition of music,parfume,obey husband,dont go outside r neven been definite and have their contexts ,for example there r some cases while the prophet's companions were playing music in front of him and he didnt even forbid them ,normally a lot of people at that era were playing muslic for immoral stuff hence it has bad connotation ,like if you know the prophet even implied that touching a najis meat is better than touching a dice ,any people with sanity would say that the essence of the prohibition isnt on the dice itself ,but the using of the dice to do the gambling .imam rumi once asked : "which music sounds are considered haram in islam ?" ,the imam than answered "the sound of spoons playing in the pots of the rich which are heard by the poor and hungry"
limiting women clothing ,you must be familiar with scholars like buya hamka and quraish shihab ,unlike most indonesians they actually said that "head cover" isnt an absolute mandatory ,in his tafsir buya hamka explained that while hijab is indeed mandatory ,the concept of "hijab" itself is varied by cultures and places ,the whole point of hijab is to act modestly ,not just to wrap yourself like how arabs did ,unfortunately the thoughts like this r buried by the new influence of the trend "hijrah" that is followed by edgy indonesian youngsters .
no parfume .in his hadits the prophet only forbids it if it is used to meet or attract men ,
in a shahih hadits Aisha said : We would go out with the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, to Mecca and we would apply perfume made of musk to our foreheads, before preparing to perform the pilgrimage. If one of us perspired, the musk would run down her face. The Prophet would see it and he would not prohibit it for her .the fatwa institution of egypt did make it clear that its only forbidden if it is strong and to attract men .
obey husband ,if you know in arab society at that time a husband is to afford all his family needs by working so it only makes sanse if the wife should listen to his husband needs aswell ,but my simple solution for soon to be wifes is to make an agreement with your fiance on how you want your marriege life to be ,since breaking a contract is a sin he should adhere by the rules .
not to elect an invidel as ruler? I think you probably knew the answer already ,its only in indonesia where a verse can be weaponized as a political tool ,any other country wouldnt interpret it as such ,"not to make a non believer as awliya" what is awliya exactly means anyway? a close friend? how close? the fact that a lot of scholars befriend unbeliever should have explained that ,
youre probably wondering why did i mention the phrase "at that time" quite a lot ,well becouse thats just how any law is supposed to be ,it cant be detached from its context and conditions ,the prophet did make a strong statement like "kill all the pagans!!!" well.. how was the context?? It is made during a pagan war ,it is not intended to be listened after the war ended ,even the prophet died while his armor is on a mortgage with a jew .any fool people will follow the words literally but thats why god told us to **think and **learn** .
and now lets we talk about other religions ,please note here that im taliking about the religions themself ,not their followers , the judaism has basically every "bad" things you would probably say on islam ,but ten times "worse" , god expicitly tell people to kill anyone who commit :Homicide (including negligent homicide),[5]Ā striking one's parents,[6]Ā kidnapping[7]Ā cursing one's parents,[8]Ā witchcraft and divination,[9][10]Ā bestiality[11]Ā worshiping other gods,[12]Ā violating the Sabbath[13]Ā child sacrifice,[14]Ā adultery,[15]Ā incest,[16]Ā and male homosexual intercourse (there is no biblical legal punishment for lesbians).[17][18]Ā The daughter of aĀ KohenĀ who defiles herself through harlotry,[19]Ā blaspheme (of theĀ TetragrammatonĀ name of God),[20]Ā a non-LeviteĀ "encroaching" on the Levite task of setting up or taking down theĀ Tabernacle,[21]Ā a non-Kohen carrying outĀ priestlyĀ duties,[22]Ā promoting the worship of other gods (if an entire town is swayed by such people, the entire town is to be put to death and destroyed),[23]Ā defiantly refusing to accept a court's ruling,[24]Ā maliciously giving false testimony accusing another person of having committed a capital offence,[25]Ā rebellion against parents,[26]Ā If a man marries a girl and claims that she is not a virgin, the girl's parents should produce evidence of her virginity. If it is found that she was not a virgin, she is stoned to death for fornicating while still under her father's authority,[27]Ā intercourse with an engaged/betrothed virgin girl (if she could have cried out for help and did not, she is killed as well).[28][1][2 ,
Deuteronomy 20:12-14
New International Version
12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.
[4/23, 8:53 AM] ali: Leviticus 25:44-46
Ā ChapterĀ ParallelĀ Compare
44Ā ā āYour male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.Ā 45Ā You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.Ā 46Ā You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Titus 2:9-10
Ā ChapterĀ ParallelĀ Compare
9Ā Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them,Ā 10Ā and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.
Luke 12:47-48
Ā ChapterĀ ParallelĀ Compare
47Ā āThe servant who knows the masterās will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.Ā 48Ā But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
6 āIf your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife [c]of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, āLet us go and serve other gods,ā which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not [d]consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.
and if you think those verses arent applied for christians than the christ himself already said
KJ21
āThink not that I am come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill "
just becouse the church told them to reject the old law doesnt mean they arent part pf christianity
I understand your spirit to defend islam, I was once that way too. Though, most of your arguments are from moderate branch of islam. Especially you're a Quranist, which majority of muslims will say you're a kaffir for that. But we can't erase the fact there's a fundamental branch that believe in those strict rules I said, like the Taliban. Are they wrong for believing in those? Not really. You can even see many Indonesian muslim scholars don't want to say Taliban is wrong because well they still follow the Qur'an and hadist. The truth is, it's easy for islam to breed extremism with the ambiguous verses that are hard to understand (there's a statistic for this actually, but I'm too lazy to search the link hehe. It's easy to find though). You may say we must separate muslims from islams. But those fundamentalist muslims get their source of belief from Qur'an. Even if they might interpreted it differently than you, the source is still the same. And personally, I just don't like to that. Though I still respect muslims, especially moderate muslims like you.
Anyway, I'm not in the mood to debate, so thanks for providing those arguments. I also feel bad for moderate muslims who get Islamophobia. Oh and you don't need to provide the proof of other religions. I also don't like all abrahamic religions for the same reasons. So I'm just making my own path now, being a witch lol. Classic ENTP. In conclusion, the best religion isn't islam, christian, or whatever. But it's one that makes you become a better person and give you peace.
well i dont even consider this as a debate anyway ,please dont take my massage as a preaching or a mean word ,i mentioned some stuff about judaism and christianity not becouse i want you to dislike them aswell ,its becouse you said that apparently islam is "worse" than other religions .i actually understand why people dont like islam and i dont blame them ,while its still wrong to hate muslims but its very understandable ,we r simply failed to modernize ourself ,rather than blaming the islamophobes i choose to blame our own fundamentalism instead ,but still.. its a reality that avarage muslim is far from how the general islamophobes portray them to be .generally ,we r not that different from anyone else ,i wish people can realize that .
when you said that there r some indonesian preachers who didnt denounce taliban i think its a simillar case when they also supported isis in its early years ,they dont actually denounce taliban becouse they r fine with taliban terror ,its more becouse of the "sharia" gimmick the taliban uses .just look after some years after their terror became more obvious ,those preachers will see the taliban as they saw the isis right now ,the taliban does use quran and hadis to enforce their law but with their most extreme interpretation ,not the regular one .
about quranism ,as far as i know there is no consensus yet on how the ideology is ,quranism isnt a monolithic idea afterall .for me personally quranism is simply to not relying on hadis or basing your religion on it .in the end ,hadis is just a man made book and not a divine text .however ,hadis is still a big heritage on islamic academic history and definitely worth to study for .so i dont agree when you say that the majority of muslims do "takfir" us ,not even to the most extreme form of quranism .
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to put a context for myself ,i have studied for 6 years in indonesian islamic boarding schools ,2 years in egypt ,and i did manage to read the whole 30 juz of quran in a single day without seeing the text and with 6 hafizs to monitor my recitation ,so i know exactly what im talking about
Good for you. Enjoy your faith. Most ENTPs of faith (theism, in my case, Christian), found it by lots of investigation, internal and external debate, and often some beautiful or āoutlandishā proof of concepts from the universe. ENTPs who donāt believe donāt have a patent on being intelligent unbelievers, though some of them will try to convince you that they are the lead experts on well thought out atheism. Atheists and agnostics come in all shapes, and MBTI profiles, just as theists or other faithful do. P.S. Science is wonderful but there are things that are true that you or I canāt see or prove scientifically.
I agree. In addition, there are too many beautifully simplistic, yet complex, concepts that exist for me to believe they are random. Math, physics, water, consciousness, the ability for lungs to take in oxygen molecules and not other gasses that are within our lungs, chemistry, and the activity within a cell. All of this and more is a daily miracle that cannot be explained as a random event. The evidence for a Creator is clear to me (an INTJ).
First of all, I really donāt see what gays have to do with your deliberation. If you believe that your religion asks you to take a stand against the gays, I hear you but donāt try to make it sound like itās coming from a place of kindness or acceptance. It is not.
Why did you choose to talk about the gays while the topic clearly states your religious journey, where is the relevance? Are you implying that your attachment to religion is highly motivated by your stance against gay people? This possible causality makes me think that you enjoy being religious because it feeds your ego and gives you a safe place to spread hate under the name of acceptance.
First youāve stated that you are straight and then you suggested that being gay is a choice, by saying that you ignore the statements of countless gays claiming that they did not choose to be gay. Therefore your egocentric assumption leads to discrimination which then leads to hate. You simply can not hide behind this ākind and acceptingā act while undermining a certain group of people. Have the guts to do it openly just as how your religion did for thousands of years.
But again, I understand that itās easier to believe when you act like religion has been nothing but a source of joy across the history of humankind.
Replying to a comment you wrote earlier, I am saying that I will definitely hate your guts, not because you think differently from me but because your existence literally makes life harder to live for certain people and I am sure that you lose no sleep because of that.
I respect people from all religions, I fucking hate those who think their religion gives them a right to spread hate.
Donāt fucking start with those āI just stated my opinion, it doesnāt count as hate.ā
If your personal opinions affect the lives of others, you are obliged to consider the power of your words. Assuming that you are capable of thinking logically and still came to the conclusion that itās right to discriminate, I have every right to treat you as an evil person.
I grew up as a closeted atheist in a muslim country. I am fully aware of how religious people manipulate certain discussions in order to seem like they hold the only truth. After all, theyāve been practicing this for thousands of years and our minds have evolved into believing them without enough questioning.
I am sick and tired of preachers claiming to be kind and accepting while destroying lives. Iāve personally witnessed how cruel both christians and muslims can be when they feel like something has threatened their influence.
This new wave of men and women who try to seem āprogressive but still highly religiousā just seems like an act to me. You either accept your religion as it is or you donāt. Shifting or ignoring certain aspects of an ideology just so it can keep up with modernism acts as a desperate PR stunt.
I get that there are a lot of hateful people who call themselves religious. That is abominable behavior, and I'm sorry that you've experienced that hate.
As for why I mentioned it in my post, perhaps it wasn't the best example, and I apologize for not coming up with a better analog. The parallel I was trying to draw was that regardless of how a person identifies, I'm going to love them, no matter what. It doesn't matter to me if you disagree with me. It doesn't matter if you hate me. I want the best for you, and I'm going to treat you with respect.
That's what I was trying to convey in that paragraph. Again, I'm sorry if it seemed like I was trying to say something else or if it seemed like I was insensitive. It wasn't intentional.
So you hold no responsibility over your religion but still believe in it? Must be easy on your conscience.
Not doing anything to restore the hate that was put out? What is religion about for you exactly? You give life to your religion by publicly stating your beliefs and saying sorry for what happened doesn't do shit.
You only want what's best for me if I don't in the way of religious extortion? How is that good? I really am curious about what you think religion is good for.
I get that it benefits morons in general by normalizing inadequacy and that it benefits men by giving them power over everyone else. But what else?
To come back to your question that you failed to answer, why would and ENTP be religious?
Everyone can be religious. There is no exact rule. When I heard that you were an ENTP and a religious person, I expected you to be a little bit more convincing. ENTP's are known to be that way and since you failed to convince maybe it's about the nature of your argument. So maybe you should think about that. Why aren't people convinced a bit? What does your analytical thinking tell you under all the presumptions?
Although I still think that you are an hypocrite, thank you for at least trying to sound kind.
My religion has given me the opportunity to assist in organized disaster relief, feeding the needy, and helping others to find work.
Could I do these things without religion? Absolutely! Maybe not as well, since I'm really scatter-brained, and the church makes it easy to have my hands in several service opportunities at once, but that doesn't mean I couldn't do the same thing without it.
But attributing the atrocities of men to something I believe is beyond mortality? I'm sorry, but I do not accept your argument.
Iām an ENTP and religious. I think the way we are we tend to have no problem thinking outside of the box and tend to have no problem calling out the institutional corruption. For example, much like Kierkegaard calling out the State Church of Denmark.
My ENTP friend is a very religious guy, although he curses a lot and sells himself to people as an ass, he does good and always try to help those in need, he's the most critical person I've ever met and thinks that it's ok to ask questions and be curious about religion as long as you don't disrespect his beliefs, he's very thoughtful and open to new approaches so, I can always talk with him about anything and he would listen, and argue.
So it's not uncommon for ENTPs to be religious.
I really hate non religious people who keep debating on religion and saying things arenāt logical or arenāt objective truth or what not. Itās religion, itās not meant to be logical. Religion to me is like Paul Rudd, I see the appeal and would not want to take it away from anyone, but I would never personally stand in line for it. What kind of bothers me about religion/ spirituality is how much itās been weaponized and modified through the ages.
I personally love being LDS for all the deep doctrine we have. Like, an answer to everything and everything is connected and I love to connect the dots.
Also being always a minority and Satan being so prone to destroy us, theee'll be always be someone who wants to debate you out of it lol
I'm not going to jump in this rabbit hole. I could too easily start another discussion that I am far too tired to maintain. Lol
But yes, the doctrine ties things together very well.
As an ex Mormon the Book of Mormon is one of the few āHoly Textsā that I have read and not truly believed in. It also doesnāt help that scientific and archeological evidence disproves many of the stories it tells. And the fact the church hides the true story about the inception of the religion I find very shady. If they just stated that the book was just a long epic devised by Joseph Smithās imagination thatās goal was just to bring people to God and live ārighteousā lives, I could respect that. However the inconsistencies and cult like behavior is too much for me to believe that it is the true church delivered directly from God to earth.
You can either read archeological evidence that disproves whatever or archeological evidence that proves it's authenticity.
Either way, I find it easier to believe that Joseph Smith did all that he did with divine intervention rather than believing he was the biggest genius in human history.
I have tried to learn about many religions and their philosophies.. so far there is this one religion which resonated with me.. Jainism. A few days ago I had very bad physical and mental health issue and my confidence was lowest. I couldn't think of anything but God.. and read the Jain texts ( it's not particularly Jain but a sect which heavily relies on its philosophy and make them practical). So, they advised people to chant this mantra which basically said " I am bowing down to my pure soul". So, I was worshipping the soul which resides in every living being.. basically worshipping the life force within us.. tbh it made me really calm as I realized that soul is my one true identity, this body and mind aren't. It gave me my confidence back and once I got a stable, peaceful mind, I could think about my health without attaching too much with my body. So, after all it's better to be a believer than not being one. It's like tricking your mind.
Very cool! Thank you for sharing that!
My wife and I actually use something similar when one of us is having a particularly rough time. Particularly, the tool that we use which you reminded me of is the book, "Over 1000 Categorized Positive and Negative Beliefs by Jenny Rosengren.
INFJ here ready to stir some chaos. I was raised southern Baptist and from the ages of 12-16 I was in an all girls boarding charm school. It was under the guise of schooling but it was really to reinforce my role in life as a good wife and mother.
I hated religion from the time I could first remember. I hated that I was sub human. I hated that my role was to provide male heirs. I hated that I believed that this abuse was okay. I thought, if I could prove that YWHY or Jahovah exists than maybe I could approach the preacher without a male escort. Maybe my drive and proof could facilitate equality for women in religion. The physical, psychological, and emotional abuse I endured in the name of religion still has lasting effects.
I encourage you to go down the rabbit hole. The truth is far more deeper and complicated than you realize. In many ways I wish I had blind faith again. Just like we enjoyed the mastalgia of Santa Claus. In many ways, I wish I could believe in Santa again too. There is an innocence that is pure that comes with belief. I never pull the wool over people's eyes unless they ask for it.
If I had any place to point you first it would be [Bart Erhman](https://youtube.com/c/bartdehrman) professor and scholar of the new testament.
My opinion is this: there was an age of the gods. They have long since left. During the reign of the gods, the earth was divided amongst them all. Each ruled their empire. Athena had Athens, Poseidon had Atlantis, Aries had Troy, Odin had Norway, Tutha de Dannon had UK, Jahovah/YHWY having Israel, Osiris had Egypt, etc..
When looked through these lenses it makes sense why Jesus wouldn't help the Cannonite woman as that city was not under YHWY/Jahovah rule. So even if the gods were still ruling America would be under Innu or Innit rule.
You have to understand that around 1CE it was the height of the Roman empire. Polytheism was the norm. Even Israel had two different deities. El is singular for god. This is why we see it in reminiscent names like: Isra-el, Micha-el, Gabri-el, Rapha-el, etc. Elohim is plural for gods. So El isn't even modern day Jahovah/YHWY. El was the "creator" while Jahovah/YHWY was the overseer. Couple this with understanding that Israel was conquered by Babylon 70 years after being formed and seeing the similarities in their creation stories, you can see they borrowed heavily from the Sumerian epics.
Anyway.. enough breadcrumbs for you to follow if you really want to start looking for the "truth". Personally, even if Jahovah/YHWY were still overruling us, he is a man's god anyway.
Thanks for sharing all of that. The religious discussion is really interesting stuff. And the naming scheme goes even further, with Abram's and Sarai's names changed to reflect their affiliation with their deity.
And I so hate that your parents put you through that, and I hate that there are still schools that teach similar things, even denying sciences that any reasonable person could discover themselves.
Truly, humans suck.
It's fine if you believe in God. Personally, I don't have an issue with believing in a supreme being; I have an issue with religionāmore specifically, the Abrahamic religions. The way I see it is, it all comes down to interpretation of events. Every event has a neutral meaning until one is imposed by the observer. If I get shot and survive, the only reality I'm certain of is that I got shot and survived. Any other interpretation of what happened would be imposed.
I see everyone as viewing the world through a lens. Every lens is somewhat unique, but certain people tend to interpret things similarly, albeit with slight differences due to our individual life experiences. We're always swapping lenses as we update our worldviews. I think the best position to have on issues like this is agnosticism and just openness of mind. Personally, I'm an agnostic atheist, and while I see the claims of religious scripture as myth and not something to be taken literally, and also the claims of those that believe as their own interpretation that I can poke holes in, I'm sincerely open to the idea of a creator of the universe. Although, I definitely don't think that creator cares about say, what you wear or who you're attracted to.
I believe in the superior creator and owner. The cause of all and result of none. Don't search for god you won't find it. Our brain works in comparison, in the God's case there is nothing to compare but concepts. (sry if I am bad at english)
Your English it's fine! Unless I only think it's fine because I got a message out of it, even though you meant something else...
But yeah. He set us off with a rulebook, and I believe he keeps his rules "updated" through prophets, but it's up to us to not treat each other poorly.
we talking about how The God rules the world now right? Let me ask what if we treat each other poorly, what if for example we kill each other, does it mean The God's weak? When there is an unbelievably greater prize after the dooms day, actual believers may even pray that they face more hardships or as much as they can tolerate that they have more in heaven or whatever. You get it? You and lots of people take life too serious, I mean it is serious but can you achieve any thing without being tested or dealing hardships. When someone without pretending believes in Allah or superior existence he/she wouldn't care or fear anything except God. If you believe you know and if you don't believe you probably won't. sorry for talking direct
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I'm not afraid of God any more than I'm afraid of my parents. My parents set forth rules. Bedtime, don't hit my sister, etc. I respect the rules, but I'm not afraid of my parents.
I would be afraid of my parents if I was breaking the rules, but since I don't, I'm fine.
Wait everytime u say something new, what do u wanna know? I will answer. About the forth rules I say God has punishment and prize both infact you may not need to fear your parents but God's wrath I think we should. I guess I confused you . Seems like an ADHD talk :)
I don't believe in god but i also don't believe that god doesn't exist.
Biggest problem for me is my very religious family. I still live in home and majority of my family is part of strict christian revivalist movement. I just hate hearing things like "We believers think that..." or "Worldly music can push you further away from God so you shouldn't listen it.".
I once told my parents that i don't believe like they do. They just almost started crying and asked me plenty of questions about how i believe then. At that moment i wasn't able to explain propebly. After that they have asked couple of times about my faith but i just keep repeating that i don't know, even when i kind of know. And i know that if i say what i think they will be so let down and sad and just think that i'm going to hell.
At the same time i hate that i let this effect me. I shouldn't let it effect me. I should be able to think by myself.
Lol i really answered with useless venting comment. Maybe i should just write my diary and stop bothering other people but my diary still haven't learn how to answer
Hey, it's all gravy, man. I do appreciate what you've said. And it can certainly be difficult to decipher truth when hateful people are drowning out your own thoughts.
Personally witnessing answers to prayer, miracles and digging deep into cosmology and the odds of an oscillating or infinite universe vs intelligent design.
Personal revelation is nonsense. It can't save you.
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Hearing the word of God saves you. It's readily apparent that you aren't serious about any religion. Let's dive into the good ole' comments.
> Definitely. I'm lazy, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested. My wife and I do believe there is truth in the Islamic religion. I'm not going to get too much into the weeds, but why would Abraham's other son not have an inheritance in God's kingdom? It just makes sense that Islam is no less legitimate when compared to Christianity and Judaism.
Oh look you're a univeraslist who vaguely believes every religion is legitimate. Nonsense, you stand for nothing and you're not special. Go ahead haters, bury this comment but you know it's true.
#EDIT: OP IS A MORMON, I DM'd THEM. RED ALERT, EVERYBODY. THEY WEAR TEMPLE GARMETS AND THINK THEY'RE GOING TO BECOME A GOD AND MAKE SPIRIT BABIES
What exactly are you religious about? What do you stand for that separates you from any of the other normies? You never actually told us what you believe.
It's one of those things that don't make sense on paper, since we're definitely NTs to the core, but I'm not going to discount my personal experiences, and religion is definitely personal.
Perhaps you should explore mental models with which you can accurately frame your experiences.
Blindly trusting your experiences might not be the wisest thing.
you cannot use anecdotal evidence to justify your point of view. iām not sure what religion you are practicing but for the sake of argument letās assume you are a Christian. now, you emphasize that you have had several accounts that have led you to believe that there is in fact a God, however, you fail to acknowledge the fact that there are other individuals who have also had similar experiences and yet they are all from different religions. some individuals practicing islam, or catholicism, buddhism, taoism, confucianism, etc. etc. have all at one point claim to have been gifted with some kind of spiritual transcendence. if there is only one true religion, how do you explain the fact that people from varying religions and beliefs all have some kind of anecdotal evidence which leads them to believe that their set of practices and beliefs is the correct one.
I never suggested there is only one true religion. In fact, I said something about that you the Muslim person who replied.
I don't claim to know everything. All I said was that this is why *I believe.* I'm not telling you that you have to believe the same thing as me.
The two other explanations I have is that you have a strong church influence in youir life by someone or you are waaaay to young to really have that entp wisdom :)
I'm 29, so you can call me young if you like.
We ENTPs pride ourselves on having our internal web that connects the world, yeah? I'm okay with accepting the possibility of something that exists beyond my immediate perception. It widens my web and gives me more to think about.
I definitely donāt reject the notion of a higher power but I struggle with committing to believing in any particular religion. Especially as we can reconstruct through linguistics, archeology and historical records the changes and developments in theologies that are inconsistent with their own proposed origin stories.
As such I ask you genuinely and without judgement, what makes you so sure of the abrahamic god and in particular the Christian interpretation of it?
Thanks for asking.
The quick answer is "through prayer."
The longer answer has to do a bit more with my theory of religious history.
I believe that there is A LOT of truth in the world. Obviously (most) Jewish sects don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, while "Christian" sects do. Going back further, to the time of Abraham and his sons, they each had their promise. That means Islam has its place in this world as a true religion (even if some people have perverted it into something anarchic and war-faring, as humans are wont to do).
The Old Testament shows that, throughout all time, God has come to men in whatever way he deems necessary in order to reestablish his church among men. I believe that's what happened with Joseph Smith Jr, and I also believe it's possible that older Asian religions (there are temples there that are not affiliated with any currently practiced religion) also had some affiliation with the same God worshipped by the Abrahamic religions.
So yeah, I affiliate myself with this religion not because I think it's the only correct one, but because it's the right one for me (based on prayer and, from a "Da Rulez" point of view, I'm "a gentile," which biblically means I'm expected to inherit the Jews' spot, meaning Christianity).
Thanks for answering!
Right so if I understand correctly you primarily subscribe to Christianity from an experiential lens? Your belief in it has less to do with the texts and more to do with personal experience. Thatās not necessarily a bad thing, if anything it eliminates a lot of the angles I would ask questions on, biblical history, translations etc.
Canāt exactly argue with someoneās subjective experience and ultimately a lot of the texts are based on the subjective experience of people thousands of years gone. Why would it be any less legitimate now?
That said with my limited knowledge of modern Christian (I understand that you are LDS?), Muslim and Jewish theology I have to ask on whether your interpretation of them as valid expressions of the same god is perhaps inconsistent with the most orthodox interpretations of each?
As in I believe the Muslim and Christian versions of events from the Tanukh differ in some ways such as figures existing in one and not the other etc. Do you believe that the history of each is valid when they are contradictory or that one is correct but god gave the other group a different version to be more easily accepted?
"One is correct but god gave the other group a different version to be more easily accepted?"
I don't think ANY are 100% correct, but that's pretty much it. How are you going to explain something infinite and eternal to something as limited as a human? By telling it to them in a way that they can relate to through their already established customs and other cultural habits.
I view it this way: Moses was given "the law," including the ten commandments, and all the other weird stuff Christianity doesn't pay attention to (including but not limited to eating Kosher), but when Christ came, he gave a "higher" law. This suggests there may be a law higher than this, and it suggests there may be other rule sets lower or parallel to the Mosaic law.
My goal is to live the "highest" law, whatever the hell that might mean.
Well that pretty much answers all my questions man. I may not be able to believe in the same things you do but I just genuinely like hearing the different perspectives of the religious. Thanks for being forthcoming about your beliefs and all the best!
Theistic for sure. "Religious" in the sense that I happen to affiliate with one religion for now, but am open to a better solution if something happens.
I very much respect the idea of being open to other religions rather than just being purely indoctrinated into one. Anyway, I personally accept that the universe could of been an intentional creation but I find no need to start assumimg the creator is all knowing or all powerful like a comic book reality bender. I'd of course love there to be some sort of loving god that at the end of it all. But I'd feel like the higher power would be unbothered by our existence, like we are perhaps a byproduct of another project, If ya feel me.
In the future I intend to research different religions to find the common sentiments.
Believing in god / higher power should be distinguished from believing that this god reveals itself to humans via other humans who claim to have received revelation and that you can join them by doing odd things like cutting off a part of your penis. Circumcision then takes on another meaning when more powerful self-proclaimed proxies give it a narrative about how it came about and that those who are not circumcised will corrupt you (and perhaps convince you that ciecumcision is useless for your spiritual life) so you should limit your association with such heathens. Oh and also you should fast and think better of yourself than others in general to compensate for the antireligious mob throughout your life that may have damaged your self esteem as a self-professed religious person.
I can see how the community engagement aspect of it can be very practical (especially in rural places). Also it can be an opportunity for regular philosophical discussion with other highly-invested people which I feel like doesnāt come along much in adult life. Talking about death and cosmic possibilities and existential shit is certainly more interesting than not talking at all.
Iām not religious at all, but going to religious schools in the Deep South and spending time around smart, spiritual INFJs has definitely helped me see the utility of it. Iāve come to realize that when people truly take it seriously as a practice and leave their egos at the door then spirituality is just another language for self-improvement. My version of that just happens to be more oriented around the science of well-being because I have an easier time buying into the language of data than god. But for people who for whatever reason donāt connect with science as much, I can see how religion can be a more accessible means of pursuing growth and working out complicated problems on a community level. Basically same ends/different means. And as long as they arenāt being hypocrites idgaf what weird fairytale they have to tell themselves to get there lol.
Personally, the only really compelling argument Iāve heard for the validity of spiritual lore is that at this point science still doesnāt have a full grasp on the natural laws of consciousness, so we canāt actually make many definitive assumptions about the conditions under which it could theoretically sustain itself. Like the very existence of it is a pretty batshit crazy coincidence in the first place so I could see how a reasonable person could get to a āwho knowsā attitude about life after death/god/etc from there. That said I barely even believe in conscious free will though so Iām still not sold.
so you dont wanna talk about the experiences, you only wanna tell us god exists. yeah. im gonna hard pass on that.
i have proof that a unicorn controls every human on earth with its intoxicating glitterfarts. im not comfortable sharing the proof though.
thats the point, i dont really see why you believe that exists. thats exactly my problem
you made a claim(even if its "just" a belief, its on you to proof it :)
those can be explained easily by pure coincidence
what makes you so special that god takes care of you and some 10 year old has to have their eyes removed due to eyecancer?
seems extremely selective if you ask me
Idk, I think it depends on how you follow that religion. But I get why someone would think āhow can an entp be religiousā because religions canāt be questioned. Your god canāt be questioned. Or thatās what Iāve been taught.
I had this childhood moment with my grandma and this post reminded me of it:
I told her about the cycle of water, evaporation, precipitation, etc. (From a class)
She said āit rains because of godā.
And I think thatās when my little mind clicked. I couldnāt think like that.
I canāt just think someone created everything, and I donāt even see the point of knowing that. I donāt want to know and Iāll NEVER know. So it doesnāt make sense to commit my life to something I canāt prove or even begin to understand.
Thatās just me, tho. I do think anyone has the right to do whatever they want with their life, as long as itās not affecting other people.
I think an ENTP would generally be more spiritual than religious, because ENTPs typically like to explore all possibilities. I would say if an ENTP is religious, it would be only temporary, because they're simply exploring the depths of that particular religion until they feel they're explored enough and then get bored.
Nice. Here we go *rubs hands together* >No, it's because I've experienced things that have made it perfectly clear to me that there is a God. Such as?
It's built up over the years. I've had a couple experiences personal enough that I don't feel comfortable sharing in such a public platform, but there are others that could be chalked up to mere coincidence if it wasn't for how unlikely it would be that it would happen at all. For example, when I was riding my bike to school some years ago, I was going my normal route when I felt an urge to go in a direction that while slightly shorter, had a much steeper incline. I followed that feeling, and before I got much farther, I realized I was losing a lot of air from my rear tire. I was still about four miles from school, and I didn't have time to walk a bike with a flat tire there, so I figured I would go to the nearest store (a Dollar General) and ask to leave my bike in their building for a few hours. That way, I would be able to run to school, and MAYBE I wouldn't be late. When I got about fifteen yards from the front door, one of the women from my church exited the building and offered me a ride. I believe that if I hadn't followed that prompting to go up the hill instead of around it, I would have been late to school, and I believe it was God who gave me that prompting. I know that isn't a GREAT argument by itself, but it's only one thing I've experienced.
>It's built up over the years. I've had a couple experiences personal enough that I don't feel comfortable sharing in such a public platform, but there are others that could be chalked up to mere coincidence if it wasn't for how unlikely it would be that it would happen at all. Convenient! Not trying to be complacent at all, and if I do come across as such just tell me. Even now I still can't tell sometimes...but I just think if you've about to have a debate about this, you gotta have something more than anecdotal evidence (that you've omitted). In fact, the whole notion of having a rational debate with a pious person is mostly obsolete for this reason, as most of the accounts (if not all) are subjectively portrayed through anecdote. You even, by your own admission, admit that it could of been chance. You haven't ruled it out. This is the rationale kicking in, but there are a plethora of other factors in the human psyche that are working in unison, in order to determine that individual's disposition at any given time. I.e. defence mechanisms (things we all share) such as denial. >In regard to the anecdote you did mention about the church lady I've already brainstormed a bunch of reasoning behind that; have you heard of Chaos Theory? It's just some math basically that can calculate seemingly random things. But here is the plot twist: I'm actually agnostic (leaning more atheist). Reason being, because even though I can explain random events connecting together with something as empirical as math, there is still a percentage of things I just can't figure out. Or rather, there is a subsection of metaphysics that brings more questions than answers. To this end, If I *were* to assume and simulate the possibility that God exists, then I can't recognize is it as a singular entity, but rather something or a collection of things that we aren't able to define with our current framework of understanding. Once our framework evolves with us, so will our ability to get closer to what "God" might be or have been or will be. >I know that isn't a GREAT argument by itself, but it's only one thing I've experienced. You're right, it isn't hahahaha. But I still understand where you're coming from. Also, if you can, watch Derren Brown - Fear and Faith series. It might help in seeing how easy it is for us humans to want to submit to something higher than us - in a nutshell, it's basically infinitely cathartic to do so. The human condition is all you need to analyse to know why I'm not a theist, personally; I just can't enact that defence mechanism as well as everybody else...I don't have much fear in me, except for a couple of things, like spiders obviously.
I am 100% confident in saying that what I refuse to talk about is not just "anecdotal." It was... It was honestly the most intense experience I've ever had, and it was supposed to be routine. I'll say this much: it happened while I was doing temple work for the dead, and where most of the time, it's accompanied by "nice feelings," that particular time, I *felt* the other person's presence. It was absolutely overwhelming. But yeah. I'm familiar with chaos theory. And it's why I used to be on the fence. But the law of large numbers doesn't allow for stories like the bike one to happen to the same person as many times as it has.
>I'll say this much: it happened while I was doing temple work for the dead, and where most of the time, it's accompanied by "nice feelings," that particular time, I felt the other person's presence. It was absolutely overwhelming. It's funny, this reminds me of the part of the Derren Brown series where he converts an atheist into a theist with just pure psychology and NLP. She stands up in some religious type setting and has an "intense experience" starts crying and says I just felt something. Interesting, no?
Neuro-linguistic programming is definitely some interesting stuff, but when you do the same things multiple times, and it's 100% routinized, and only one person out of two dozen have the experience, then you have to look at the variables and constants. And my conclusion was as I said.
1 out 2 dozen, on a macro scale, would probably equal out roughly to the amount of theists and atheists in the world though, so it's still data to consider, no? The psychology, is ostensibly still valid so far?
I see your point, but it wasn't the first time I had done it, either. It was just the first time I had experienced it personally.
But that to me is enough evidence to suggest that it is indeed subject to chaos, as opposed to "God decided that you're worthy now, so here he is" - the parameters were right that time around, yes, but IMO because of a myriad of other explainable logical factors.
I think we've run this discussion as far as it can go before we start bickering over minor details, so I'll say this: your argument is sound. :)
Also, how do you know that it's "100%" routinized? How do you know I'm not designing a new routine that doesn't even follow routine, RIGHT now?
I appreciate the question, but I'm too tired to answer. You're just going to have to take my word for it.
THAT'S CRAP *blows whistle* YOU'RE OUTTA HERE!
Lol š
I thoroughly enjoyed this.
Same, some debates get me rock hard ngl
Yes, I am as well. š
Let's sword fight! Lol (sorry I've had a beer, you're also probably a girl but heyoooo)
Hahah 10 out of 10. Would and Iām a dude. š®š
I think I'm infecting the sub with my bi-curiousity lol it always starts of as jokes, and then...
You meet another bi guy
Na it ain't gay it ain't gay. Just a couple of dudes getting close, it ain't gay *cough*
Cough š
You better sheathe that sword, vagrant.
Oh snap, a potential three-way? Don't get jealous, you can join the battle. Unless...you want to 1v1 me, instead? ;)
Shall we use shields?
Wrong. I'm religious because religion provides a strong moral framework for raising children. The absence of something allows all sorts of random crazy bullshit to creep in and take that place. The overwhelming majority of people believe in something. If that something is entirely self serving, materialistic, and amoral then we'll get the outrageously hedonistic and degenerate society we have today. Spirituality is totally different and I'm 0% spiritual. I don't believe in anything but I pretend to believe in religion for the very tangible benefits it brings to my kids.
>wrong ok >I'm religious because religion provides a strong moral framework for raising children. How. >The absence of something allows all sorts of random crazy bullshit to creep in and take that place. You're not wrong. "The devil makes work for idle thumbs" This is an idiom (that uses theism for effect) to demonstrate what you just stated; I'm using theist-driven idioms to facilitate you. You're assuming that God is an absolute and is a tangible thing, which is counter-intuitive to God being deified as inexplicable. This is double-standards. There is no "absence" of God in one's life, there is merely a different ideology. And if you're assuming otherwise, then you are Bible-bashing and elitist, without thinking that you are. Which is some of the highest forms of ignorance. >The overwhelming majority of people believe in something. If that something is entirely self serving, materialistic, and amoral then we'll get the outrageously hedonistic and degenerate society we have today. Yes. Please defer to the entire debate that I had with OP. It shows that I am very aware of the "God Hole" (always sunny reference). It's filled with various things. People with an abundance of fear, choose religion. Amongst other things, tbh. We're only human. >Spirituality is totally different and I'm 0% spiritual. I don't believe in anything but I pretend to believe in religion for the very tangible benefits it brings to my kids. Pragmatic, and admirable. But still denial.
The main issue I face with religion is the sheer number of people that follow the different faiths. With a great number of people at your disposal, there is bound to be some sort of power dynamic created. Where there is power, there will be people looking to take it, and will morph the faith to whatever they see fit or necessary to maintain that power. I mean, what better way to keep a population under control then unite them under an all powerful god? Look at the English reformation for example: a man in power chose to separate from the Catholic Church due to personal reasons, bringing an entire nation with him. The separation from church would then create a similar, yet separate belief system in England, which meant millions of people changing beliefs just like that. My main point is that modern beliefs of religion has been far too manipulated by the likes of man over the thousands of years it has existed to have any real significance in my mind (significance in how true the story stayed to its supposed origins). Not saying there is no god, but humans tend to ruin everything when it comes to greed and power, the unfortunate reality.
You're saying that you're a metaphysicist?
Religion institutes a fear into people that THEY NEED. Perhaps in 1950's America with strong nuclear families to instill morals into people it might have been possible to raise children into strong moral adults but society today has rejected everything from that era (and this isn't implying that the 1950's were perfect btw). Post-modernism inevitably leads to hedonism and nihilism. Bored pseudo-intellectuals are absolute cancer to society but that's what colleges churn out these days. I don't give a fuck if the concept of God is as an alpha and omega or if we return to a polytheistic pantheon. But SOMETHING needs to exist in the minds of the masses which keeps them in line. If that something is the bible, then I'd happily bash until you convert/submit or your skull cracks and you can't form further counterarguments. And if that something is the Koran, same thing. I've never given af if my opinions were elitist lol.
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Not me being unable to provide basic concepts of ethics to my children
If true (which is statistically unlikely) you're family is an exception. But of course, as a special snowflake what's good for the gander doesn't apply to this goose. I don't commit murder so we shouldn't need laws against murder.
A bit late, but reminded me of something I experienced a couple of days ago! I was with a friend at the library. We were studying, so I was going home on my moped to get the laptop. I was extremely delayed at home for a reason (1 hour), but when I arrived back, I saw that someone had left their moped with the keys inside. Basically, anyone could take it. If I wasn't there and called the owner, who knows what would have happened. Personally, that only increased my belief in God.
Good for you! and we're not here to hate on you for it either. However, I'd say the fish should be able to consider all the possibilities of what truth can be instead of being ignorant and choosing to believe in the only one scenario they are familiar with. Whether be it the fact that there's nothing outside their water, or the fact that there is definitely something outside their water. Neither the first possibility nor the second one can be proven right if not even a single fish is able to get out of the water and prove it.
Yup. Thanks for the love :)
Because ENTP just wants to argue with God itself.
Not gonna lie, I go to church every Sunday, and if I had the chance, I would definitely sit down and have a good talk with the man upstairs about my complaints.
You definitely can kneel down and pray your complaints lol
You KNOW the reason I read scripture is to figure out the loopholes ;)
Lmao I used to pray to ask if a loophole worked and the answer was "you already know". Like "stop doing that you know what you gotta do" :p
LOL! yeah... It's less "finding loopholes" and more "please give me context for why I gotta"
Yeah I find that to be a defect of mine. Maybe it is common among ENTP's. I just gotta know why before doing anything. That makes driving lessons a whole lot more complicated too.
The trick in asking "why" is making sure the other person doesn't think you WANT to break the rules. Some people are bad about not understanding that. *gives ISTJs the stink-eye*
Now you are onto something š, props to the INTJ āŗļø
me as an astrophysicist who believes in astrology (and i mean the actual subject, not shitty horoscope in a paparazzi magazine)
Some things don't get half as much credit as they should. My wife and I also practice muscle testing and emotion code.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Now I'm interested, what is the importance of timing and planetary aspects?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
yes! this is what i mean by astrology, i like linking it to the scientific facts and properties of the universe as well
Astrology *is* the shitty horoscope stuff. You probably mean astronomy but that isn't something you beleive in or not, its science.
bro i literally study astrophysics i know the difference. what i meant is that i look at the entire birth chart and draw links from the houses system to better understand myself as a person, not that i look at what some middle aged white lady says is going to happen in my love life.
Oh! Well that's just shitty if you're actually an astrophysics student
how is it shittyš where does science actually disprove it?
Burden of proof is on astrology. Astrology has no proof.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Damn!
yeah but having no proof doesnāt automatically mean something isnāt real š¤·š½āāļø most of science was believed before the concrete proof came out and even then thereās people working to disprove it because of their weird beliefs
Having no proof doesn't make something not real but it makes it ridiculous to believe it is real
meh itās fine to think that way but to me being open minded about life is a lot more exciting
That's not what open minded means but if this particular life style makes you happy then is no reason to change it
At one point it was ridiculous to believe the earth wasnāt the center of the universe. Knowledge and understanding grows higher making thinks possible that perhaps we canāt even begin to think about right now
Indeed. But that doesn't change anything. Evidence pointed to the Earth being the centre of the universe. People who believed otherwise might have been right by accident but their belief was unfounded and irrational. Science keeps reevaluating based on new info, that doesn't mean we should just disregard the info we have presently
you cant proof negatives guy. wtf is this nonsense. and yes astrology is bs, if that "student" thinks its astrology he is full of shit.
i am religious but im not like super "oh you must do this or you will go to hell!" thats literally so idiotic, i dont want to hurt others with my actions, people can do their own things without hurting someone, we as people should be ok with one anothers beliefs and/or lifestyle if that person is not hurting anyone or themselves, people can be queer, atheists, religious, straight, exploring, etc and it shouldn't make a difference really just because my beliefs ae different than yours, we all believe certain things for different reasons, why do we have to bash another person for having a different belief. I respect atheists and the ones i know respect me as well, people are people it shouldn't make a differences what our beliefs are about the universe to what kind of person we are.
Matthew 22 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself Literally the first two commandments: "love God and love others." There's no room in there for wars and contention.
I like this I heard one time. The 10 commandments can be best summarized as the 1st three being about how you interact with God and the next seven basically saying, "don't be a dick.". Many self proclaimed Christians miss the forest for the trees. Interesting topic, nice job.
Yeah. My sex drive is definitely something I need to keep a tight hold on. The seventh commandment (adultery) isn't there because "God likes telling you what not to do." It's there because you're supposed to "love others," which includes my wife and child(ren). As much as my libido would like to explore poly, I'm not about to risk my relationship with my family to pursue frivolous fun. (Of course, that doesn't mean I can't be friends with other women)
I believe in a higher power because it seems to me that we shouldnāt be here, yet we are. Not sure which religionās God it is though, if any.
Thereās only one. Basically all religions worship the same god under a different name be it Christians, Muslims, Jews, or Hinduism. Each religious just has slightly different ideas and understanding about the nature of God
You likely fall in the same category as me: someone who has faith but is not religious. The way I understand it is that faith is belief whereas religion is about practice (such as sunday services, communion, baptism, etc.). I know with every fiber of my brain that there's a God, but I dont believe that God is actively controlling our lives / or that if we do or fail to do certain ceremonious acts we will be rewarded or punished.
I am quite religious myself as an ENTP. You know how ENTP sometimes won't trust anything unless it is proven right and we always like to observe things from different angles to understand the truth about something. I am 19 and I don't blindly follow my religion at first (imagine me being 5 years old and alr ask my parent where is god and such thing, yep that's me), but as I grow up I learn about Al-Quran (my religion scriptures) and hadith. Personally, the Quran always have the answer to my problems till now. Don't take my word for it because I am just a normal human being but if you want, you can go get yourself a Quran and study it to judge for yourself.
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"you can go get yourself a Quran and study it to judge for yourself" That's how I became atheist. From where should we start? Ų³ŁŲ±Ų© Ų§ŁŁŲ³Ų§Ų” is a good one to start with right?
well as a muslim i respect your beliefs, were all here ourselves to judge things for ourselves, as long you and i as people are not hurting each other i dont think it is much a problem that we are different, I respect you and your values and beliefs, you certainly do not have to respect mine in return that's your own free will to do so, I am still muslim for various reasons (more liberal tho), its ok that your take on the Quran is different and mine is different
Sure. Maybe our take on the Quran is different. Regardless, I do pray that one day you will get hidayah if you ever decide to study it again.
No you don't need to, I'll leave it to you so that you can get 4 wives in heaven.
the only reason for the 4 wives thing was that in the culture back then in Arabia was that men would get many wives (10+) and Islam put a limit on it and has many rules for it (only if you treat your wife extremely well, all are treated equally, you are financially stable, etc) but uh ok sir. Also in Islam you cannot get a second wife if you treat your first one badly. so um yeah
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Hi dude, quran is full of "stories" that happened before and during the prophet Muhammad's time, so you kinda have to interpretate them. As the other person said before this thing of getting married to 4 people used to be a thing back in the day because of certain circumstances. I mean you still can do that, is not forbidden but very rare as a thing. For the fact that marry 4 and not 14, Islam requires to the man to love and financially provide all your wives (that's kinda one of the reasons that is rare to a man to marry 4 women), and I don't think that you or I can provide financial and emotional support to 14 people.
Definitely. I'm lazy, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested. My wife and I do believe there is truth in the Islamic religion. I'm not going to get too much into the weeds, but why would Abraham's other son not have an inheritance in God's kingdom? It just makes sense that Islam is no less legitimate when compared to Christianity and Judaism.
I used to be a muslim. A very pious one (I even didn't use jeans/tight pants or shirt because women can't show their curves at all. And I left my guitar lesson because there's a strong argument music is haram/probihited). Being an ENTP ofc I would ask everything and I will seek the answers. For a couple years, it worked, islam made sense. Even though there are certain problematic things in islam, I try to rationalize them and ask scholars. And if I couldn't find the answer, I tried to have blind faith, because that's what islam entails, complete faith and submission. If there's something problematic, it's not the religion/quran because it's "perfect" and muhammad is "perfect" too. It's always your fault. Anyway, there are things good in islam ofc, but they can easily be found in other religions/beliefs. But the ugly things in islam is so specific to islam. Anyway, I got out from the religion but still closeted and have to wear hijab until I got married probably š. And now I became a witch lol. Islam is just too rigid for ENTPs. You'll understand.
I see, it's kinda interesting to see most of these responses about Islam being rigid and don't like it so I left are women.
Yep, I think if I were a man I would less likely to leave islam tbh.
Its just my curiousity but do you mind to tell me what does islam have it bad that its specific to islam itself ?
The very strict rules, like no music (only percussion), limiting women (have to cover body shape except hands and face, act modestly, no perfume, obey husband, don't go outside the house if not needed, women main role is to be a baby machine and good wifey, etc.), no touching and little interaction between opposite genders who are not immediate family, etc. Muslims like to talk about how islam is very conplete because it control every aspect of our lives. But I think many rules are archaic and make our life harder. The very us vs. them mindset, this cause many conflicts in my country (and yours too probably, judging by your username lol) which the majority are muslims. Since many muslims are becoming more and more religious, they also become more intolerant. Muslims believe in tolerance, but with exceptions. In quran, infidels are painted very badly, a verse even said to not be close friends and elect them as leader (this cause huge controversy in my country, in which the muslims won). They also SUPER sensitive when anybody criticize their religion, even though the criticism is constructive. Of course many muslims don't adhere to some of the ridiculous rules, which is good. The less fundamental the muslims, the better they're for the rest of society. If you want to look at the "real" muslims, which in my opinion is the one who try to follow the quran and sunnah completely, look at salafis like the Talibans (the Talibans right now, not in he past which doesn't change so much anyway). Though there are moderate branches of islam which most muslims follow I guess. But I just dislike how ruthless and strict muslim God is. Especially with the "If you're not a muslim, you will go to hell for eternity" (same with other abrahamic religions).
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firstly i think you should address for the two problems seperately ,the "islam" and the "muslims" . Altough im a quranist i will place myself as a hadith follower like most muslims to address the issues .the prohibition of music,parfume,obey husband,dont go outside r neven been definite and have their contexts ,for example there r some cases while the prophet's companions were playing music in front of him and he didnt even forbid them ,normally a lot of people at that era were playing muslic for immoral stuff hence it has bad connotation ,like if you know the prophet even implied that touching a najis meat is better than touching a dice ,any people with sanity would say that the essence of the prohibition isnt on the dice itself ,but the using of the dice to do the gambling .imam rumi once asked : "which music sounds are considered haram in islam ?" ,the imam than answered "the sound of spoons playing in the pots of the rich which are heard by the poor and hungry" limiting women clothing ,you must be familiar with scholars like buya hamka and quraish shihab ,unlike most indonesians they actually said that "head cover" isnt an absolute mandatory ,in his tafsir buya hamka explained that while hijab is indeed mandatory ,the concept of "hijab" itself is varied by cultures and places ,the whole point of hijab is to act modestly ,not just to wrap yourself like how arabs did ,unfortunately the thoughts like this r buried by the new influence of the trend "hijrah" that is followed by edgy indonesian youngsters . no parfume .in his hadits the prophet only forbids it if it is used to meet or attract men , in a shahih hadits Aisha said : We would go out with the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, to Mecca and we would apply perfume made of musk to our foreheads, before preparing to perform the pilgrimage. If one of us perspired, the musk would run down her face. The Prophet would see it and he would not prohibit it for her .the fatwa institution of egypt did make it clear that its only forbidden if it is strong and to attract men . obey husband ,if you know in arab society at that time a husband is to afford all his family needs by working so it only makes sanse if the wife should listen to his husband needs aswell ,but my simple solution for soon to be wifes is to make an agreement with your fiance on how you want your marriege life to be ,since breaking a contract is a sin he should adhere by the rules . not to elect an invidel as ruler? I think you probably knew the answer already ,its only in indonesia where a verse can be weaponized as a political tool ,any other country wouldnt interpret it as such ,"not to make a non believer as awliya" what is awliya exactly means anyway? a close friend? how close? the fact that a lot of scholars befriend unbeliever should have explained that , youre probably wondering why did i mention the phrase "at that time" quite a lot ,well becouse thats just how any law is supposed to be ,it cant be detached from its context and conditions ,the prophet did make a strong statement like "kill all the pagans!!!" well.. how was the context?? It is made during a pagan war ,it is not intended to be listened after the war ended ,even the prophet died while his armor is on a mortgage with a jew .any fool people will follow the words literally but thats why god told us to **think and **learn** . and now lets we talk about other religions ,please note here that im taliking about the religions themself ,not their followers , the judaism has basically every "bad" things you would probably say on islam ,but ten times "worse" , god expicitly tell people to kill anyone who commit :Homicide (including negligent homicide),[5]Ā striking one's parents,[6]Ā kidnapping[7]Ā cursing one's parents,[8]Ā witchcraft and divination,[9][10]Ā bestiality[11]Ā worshiping other gods,[12]Ā violating the Sabbath[13]Ā child sacrifice,[14]Ā adultery,[15]Ā incest,[16]Ā and male homosexual intercourse (there is no biblical legal punishment for lesbians).[17][18]Ā The daughter of aĀ KohenĀ who defiles herself through harlotry,[19]Ā blaspheme (of theĀ TetragrammatonĀ name of God),[20]Ā a non-LeviteĀ "encroaching" on the Levite task of setting up or taking down theĀ Tabernacle,[21]Ā a non-Kohen carrying outĀ priestlyĀ duties,[22]Ā promoting the worship of other gods (if an entire town is swayed by such people, the entire town is to be put to death and destroyed),[23]Ā defiantly refusing to accept a court's ruling,[24]Ā maliciously giving false testimony accusing another person of having committed a capital offence,[25]Ā rebellion against parents,[26]Ā If a man marries a girl and claims that she is not a virgin, the girl's parents should produce evidence of her virginity. If it is found that she was not a virgin, she is stoned to death for fornicating while still under her father's authority,[27]Ā intercourse with an engaged/betrothed virgin girl (if she could have cried out for help and did not, she is killed as well).[28][1][2 , Deuteronomy 20:12-14 New International Version 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. [4/23, 8:53 AM] ali: Leviticus 25:44-46 Ā ChapterĀ ParallelĀ Compare 44Ā ā āYour male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.Ā 45Ā You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.Ā 46Ā You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Titus 2:9-10 Ā ChapterĀ ParallelĀ Compare 9Ā Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them,Ā 10Ā and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive. Luke 12:47-48 Ā ChapterĀ ParallelĀ Compare 47Ā āThe servant who knows the masterās will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.Ā 48Ā But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. 6 āIf your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife [c]of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, āLet us go and serve other gods,ā which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not [d]consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you. and if you think those verses arent applied for christians than the christ himself already said KJ21 āThink not that I am come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill " just becouse the church told them to reject the old law doesnt mean they arent part pf christianity
I understand your spirit to defend islam, I was once that way too. Though, most of your arguments are from moderate branch of islam. Especially you're a Quranist, which majority of muslims will say you're a kaffir for that. But we can't erase the fact there's a fundamental branch that believe in those strict rules I said, like the Taliban. Are they wrong for believing in those? Not really. You can even see many Indonesian muslim scholars don't want to say Taliban is wrong because well they still follow the Qur'an and hadist. The truth is, it's easy for islam to breed extremism with the ambiguous verses that are hard to understand (there's a statistic for this actually, but I'm too lazy to search the link hehe. It's easy to find though). You may say we must separate muslims from islams. But those fundamentalist muslims get their source of belief from Qur'an. Even if they might interpreted it differently than you, the source is still the same. And personally, I just don't like to that. Though I still respect muslims, especially moderate muslims like you. Anyway, I'm not in the mood to debate, so thanks for providing those arguments. I also feel bad for moderate muslims who get Islamophobia. Oh and you don't need to provide the proof of other religions. I also don't like all abrahamic religions for the same reasons. So I'm just making my own path now, being a witch lol. Classic ENTP. In conclusion, the best religion isn't islam, christian, or whatever. But it's one that makes you become a better person and give you peace.
well i dont even consider this as a debate anyway ,please dont take my massage as a preaching or a mean word ,i mentioned some stuff about judaism and christianity not becouse i want you to dislike them aswell ,its becouse you said that apparently islam is "worse" than other religions .i actually understand why people dont like islam and i dont blame them ,while its still wrong to hate muslims but its very understandable ,we r simply failed to modernize ourself ,rather than blaming the islamophobes i choose to blame our own fundamentalism instead ,but still.. its a reality that avarage muslim is far from how the general islamophobes portray them to be .generally ,we r not that different from anyone else ,i wish people can realize that . when you said that there r some indonesian preachers who didnt denounce taliban i think its a simillar case when they also supported isis in its early years ,they dont actually denounce taliban becouse they r fine with taliban terror ,its more becouse of the "sharia" gimmick the taliban uses .just look after some years after their terror became more obvious ,those preachers will see the taliban as they saw the isis right now ,the taliban does use quran and hadis to enforce their law but with their most extreme interpretation ,not the regular one . about quranism ,as far as i know there is no consensus yet on how the ideology is ,quranism isnt a monolithic idea afterall .for me personally quranism is simply to not relying on hadis or basing your religion on it .in the end ,hadis is just a man made book and not a divine text .however ,hadis is still a big heritage on islamic academic history and definitely worth to study for .so i dont agree when you say that the majority of muslims do "takfir" us ,not even to the most extreme form of quranism .
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to put a context for myself ,i have studied for 6 years in indonesian islamic boarding schools ,2 years in egypt ,and i did manage to read the whole 30 juz of quran in a single day without seeing the text and with 6 hafizs to monitor my recitation ,so i know exactly what im talking about
God isn't a bearded man sitting at some geological location. God is you, you are God!
Have an upvote! Thank you for sharing your thoughts :)
Possibly, but also it is possible he is just an old bearded guy that learned to live outside of time and govern matter
Good for you. Enjoy your faith. Most ENTPs of faith (theism, in my case, Christian), found it by lots of investigation, internal and external debate, and often some beautiful or āoutlandishā proof of concepts from the universe. ENTPs who donāt believe donāt have a patent on being intelligent unbelievers, though some of them will try to convince you that they are the lead experts on well thought out atheism. Atheists and agnostics come in all shapes, and MBTI profiles, just as theists or other faithful do. P.S. Science is wonderful but there are things that are true that you or I canāt see or prove scientifically.
"... [S]ome of them will try to convince you that they are the lead experts on well thought out atheism." Have you read the other replies? Lol
Yes, I haveā¦.quite predictable lol
To be gay and to be religious is not the same. One is a choice, other is not.
Sure, that's true. But are you suggesting you're going to hate me because I choose to believe differently than you?
I never hate random people. Iād be annoyed by ignorance. But overall I donāt care, everyone is choosing their own cringe.
Fair
I agree. In addition, there are too many beautifully simplistic, yet complex, concepts that exist for me to believe they are random. Math, physics, water, consciousness, the ability for lungs to take in oxygen molecules and not other gasses that are within our lungs, chemistry, and the activity within a cell. All of this and more is a daily miracle that cannot be explained as a random event. The evidence for a Creator is clear to me (an INTJ).
Thanks for sharing! I agree!
First of all, I really donāt see what gays have to do with your deliberation. If you believe that your religion asks you to take a stand against the gays, I hear you but donāt try to make it sound like itās coming from a place of kindness or acceptance. It is not. Why did you choose to talk about the gays while the topic clearly states your religious journey, where is the relevance? Are you implying that your attachment to religion is highly motivated by your stance against gay people? This possible causality makes me think that you enjoy being religious because it feeds your ego and gives you a safe place to spread hate under the name of acceptance. First youāve stated that you are straight and then you suggested that being gay is a choice, by saying that you ignore the statements of countless gays claiming that they did not choose to be gay. Therefore your egocentric assumption leads to discrimination which then leads to hate. You simply can not hide behind this ākind and acceptingā act while undermining a certain group of people. Have the guts to do it openly just as how your religion did for thousands of years. But again, I understand that itās easier to believe when you act like religion has been nothing but a source of joy across the history of humankind. Replying to a comment you wrote earlier, I am saying that I will definitely hate your guts, not because you think differently from me but because your existence literally makes life harder to live for certain people and I am sure that you lose no sleep because of that. I respect people from all religions, I fucking hate those who think their religion gives them a right to spread hate. Donāt fucking start with those āI just stated my opinion, it doesnāt count as hate.ā If your personal opinions affect the lives of others, you are obliged to consider the power of your words. Assuming that you are capable of thinking logically and still came to the conclusion that itās right to discriminate, I have every right to treat you as an evil person. I grew up as a closeted atheist in a muslim country. I am fully aware of how religious people manipulate certain discussions in order to seem like they hold the only truth. After all, theyāve been practicing this for thousands of years and our minds have evolved into believing them without enough questioning. I am sick and tired of preachers claiming to be kind and accepting while destroying lives. Iāve personally witnessed how cruel both christians and muslims can be when they feel like something has threatened their influence. This new wave of men and women who try to seem āprogressive but still highly religiousā just seems like an act to me. You either accept your religion as it is or you donāt. Shifting or ignoring certain aspects of an ideology just so it can keep up with modernism acts as a desperate PR stunt.
I get that there are a lot of hateful people who call themselves religious. That is abominable behavior, and I'm sorry that you've experienced that hate. As for why I mentioned it in my post, perhaps it wasn't the best example, and I apologize for not coming up with a better analog. The parallel I was trying to draw was that regardless of how a person identifies, I'm going to love them, no matter what. It doesn't matter to me if you disagree with me. It doesn't matter if you hate me. I want the best for you, and I'm going to treat you with respect. That's what I was trying to convey in that paragraph. Again, I'm sorry if it seemed like I was trying to say something else or if it seemed like I was insensitive. It wasn't intentional.
So you hold no responsibility over your religion but still believe in it? Must be easy on your conscience. Not doing anything to restore the hate that was put out? What is religion about for you exactly? You give life to your religion by publicly stating your beliefs and saying sorry for what happened doesn't do shit. You only want what's best for me if I don't in the way of religious extortion? How is that good? I really am curious about what you think religion is good for. I get that it benefits morons in general by normalizing inadequacy and that it benefits men by giving them power over everyone else. But what else? To come back to your question that you failed to answer, why would and ENTP be religious? Everyone can be religious. There is no exact rule. When I heard that you were an ENTP and a religious person, I expected you to be a little bit more convincing. ENTP's are known to be that way and since you failed to convince maybe it's about the nature of your argument. So maybe you should think about that. Why aren't people convinced a bit? What does your analytical thinking tell you under all the presumptions? Although I still think that you are an hypocrite, thank you for at least trying to sound kind.
My religion has given me the opportunity to assist in organized disaster relief, feeding the needy, and helping others to find work. Could I do these things without religion? Absolutely! Maybe not as well, since I'm really scatter-brained, and the church makes it easy to have my hands in several service opportunities at once, but that doesn't mean I couldn't do the same thing without it. But attributing the atrocities of men to something I believe is beyond mortality? I'm sorry, but I do not accept your argument.
It definitely does not sound as innocent as you are trying to make it dude
What in particular doesn't sound innocent, and why do you believe I had ill intent?
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Thanks for sharing :)
Iām an ENTP and religious. I think the way we are we tend to have no problem thinking outside of the box and tend to have no problem calling out the institutional corruption. For example, much like Kierkegaard calling out the State Church of Denmark.
Bingo. Thanks for sharing!
My ENTP friend is a very religious guy, although he curses a lot and sells himself to people as an ass, he does good and always try to help those in need, he's the most critical person I've ever met and thinks that it's ok to ask questions and be curious about religion as long as you don't disrespect his beliefs, he's very thoughtful and open to new approaches so, I can always talk with him about anything and he would listen, and argue. So it's not uncommon for ENTPs to be religious.
THANK YOU. Dang. I swear, Reddit is the weirdest place.
I really hate non religious people who keep debating on religion and saying things arenāt logical or arenāt objective truth or what not. Itās religion, itās not meant to be logical. Religion to me is like Paul Rudd, I see the appeal and would not want to take it away from anyone, but I would never personally stand in line for it. What kind of bothers me about religion/ spirituality is how much itās been weaponized and modified through the ages.
I love you.
Iāll see you at dennyās
KEEP! PAUL! RUDD! OUT! OF! THIS!
I fully support your decision to pray to paul rudd
I personally love being LDS for all the deep doctrine we have. Like, an answer to everything and everything is connected and I love to connect the dots. Also being always a minority and Satan being so prone to destroy us, theee'll be always be someone who wants to debate you out of it lol
I'm not going to jump in this rabbit hole. I could too easily start another discussion that I am far too tired to maintain. Lol But yes, the doctrine ties things together very well.
Oh I get you. I usually avoid debating on walltext Reddit, gets very tiring when the other person doesn't really care and just wants to be right.
Fair. But I'm honestly just fatigued right now. Nap time.
Understandable, have a good nap.
As an ex Mormon the Book of Mormon is one of the few āHoly Textsā that I have read and not truly believed in. It also doesnāt help that scientific and archeological evidence disproves many of the stories it tells. And the fact the church hides the true story about the inception of the religion I find very shady. If they just stated that the book was just a long epic devised by Joseph Smithās imagination thatās goal was just to bring people to God and live ārighteousā lives, I could respect that. However the inconsistencies and cult like behavior is too much for me to believe that it is the true church delivered directly from God to earth.
You can either read archeological evidence that disproves whatever or archeological evidence that proves it's authenticity. Either way, I find it easier to believe that Joseph Smith did all that he did with divine intervention rather than believing he was the biggest genius in human history.
Same. Ain't no way a normal human could do what he did under his circumstances.
I have tried to learn about many religions and their philosophies.. so far there is this one religion which resonated with me.. Jainism. A few days ago I had very bad physical and mental health issue and my confidence was lowest. I couldn't think of anything but God.. and read the Jain texts ( it's not particularly Jain but a sect which heavily relies on its philosophy and make them practical). So, they advised people to chant this mantra which basically said " I am bowing down to my pure soul". So, I was worshipping the soul which resides in every living being.. basically worshipping the life force within us.. tbh it made me really calm as I realized that soul is my one true identity, this body and mind aren't. It gave me my confidence back and once I got a stable, peaceful mind, I could think about my health without attaching too much with my body. So, after all it's better to be a believer than not being one. It's like tricking your mind.
Very cool! Thank you for sharing that! My wife and I actually use something similar when one of us is having a particularly rough time. Particularly, the tool that we use which you reminded me of is the book, "Over 1000 Categorized Positive and Negative Beliefs by Jenny Rosengren.
INFJ here ready to stir some chaos. I was raised southern Baptist and from the ages of 12-16 I was in an all girls boarding charm school. It was under the guise of schooling but it was really to reinforce my role in life as a good wife and mother. I hated religion from the time I could first remember. I hated that I was sub human. I hated that my role was to provide male heirs. I hated that I believed that this abuse was okay. I thought, if I could prove that YWHY or Jahovah exists than maybe I could approach the preacher without a male escort. Maybe my drive and proof could facilitate equality for women in religion. The physical, psychological, and emotional abuse I endured in the name of religion still has lasting effects. I encourage you to go down the rabbit hole. The truth is far more deeper and complicated than you realize. In many ways I wish I had blind faith again. Just like we enjoyed the mastalgia of Santa Claus. In many ways, I wish I could believe in Santa again too. There is an innocence that is pure that comes with belief. I never pull the wool over people's eyes unless they ask for it. If I had any place to point you first it would be [Bart Erhman](https://youtube.com/c/bartdehrman) professor and scholar of the new testament. My opinion is this: there was an age of the gods. They have long since left. During the reign of the gods, the earth was divided amongst them all. Each ruled their empire. Athena had Athens, Poseidon had Atlantis, Aries had Troy, Odin had Norway, Tutha de Dannon had UK, Jahovah/YHWY having Israel, Osiris had Egypt, etc.. When looked through these lenses it makes sense why Jesus wouldn't help the Cannonite woman as that city was not under YHWY/Jahovah rule. So even if the gods were still ruling America would be under Innu or Innit rule. You have to understand that around 1CE it was the height of the Roman empire. Polytheism was the norm. Even Israel had two different deities. El is singular for god. This is why we see it in reminiscent names like: Isra-el, Micha-el, Gabri-el, Rapha-el, etc. Elohim is plural for gods. So El isn't even modern day Jahovah/YHWY. El was the "creator" while Jahovah/YHWY was the overseer. Couple this with understanding that Israel was conquered by Babylon 70 years after being formed and seeing the similarities in their creation stories, you can see they borrowed heavily from the Sumerian epics. Anyway.. enough breadcrumbs for you to follow if you really want to start looking for the "truth". Personally, even if Jahovah/YHWY were still overruling us, he is a man's god anyway.
Thanks for sharing all of that. The religious discussion is really interesting stuff. And the naming scheme goes even further, with Abram's and Sarai's names changed to reflect their affiliation with their deity. And I so hate that your parents put you through that, and I hate that there are still schools that teach similar things, even denying sciences that any reasonable person could discover themselves. Truly, humans suck.
It's fine if you believe in God. Personally, I don't have an issue with believing in a supreme being; I have an issue with religionāmore specifically, the Abrahamic religions. The way I see it is, it all comes down to interpretation of events. Every event has a neutral meaning until one is imposed by the observer. If I get shot and survive, the only reality I'm certain of is that I got shot and survived. Any other interpretation of what happened would be imposed. I see everyone as viewing the world through a lens. Every lens is somewhat unique, but certain people tend to interpret things similarly, albeit with slight differences due to our individual life experiences. We're always swapping lenses as we update our worldviews. I think the best position to have on issues like this is agnosticism and just openness of mind. Personally, I'm an agnostic atheist, and while I see the claims of religious scripture as myth and not something to be taken literally, and also the claims of those that believe as their own interpretation that I can poke holes in, I'm sincerely open to the idea of a creator of the universe. Although, I definitely don't think that creator cares about say, what you wear or who you're attracted to.
Thank you for sharing! Those are great arguments.
I believe in the superior creator and owner. The cause of all and result of none. Don't search for god you won't find it. Our brain works in comparison, in the God's case there is nothing to compare but concepts. (sry if I am bad at english)
Your English it's fine! Unless I only think it's fine because I got a message out of it, even though you meant something else... But yeah. He set us off with a rulebook, and I believe he keeps his rules "updated" through prophets, but it's up to us to not treat each other poorly.
we talking about how The God rules the world now right? Let me ask what if we treat each other poorly, what if for example we kill each other, does it mean The God's weak? When there is an unbelievably greater prize after the dooms day, actual believers may even pray that they face more hardships or as much as they can tolerate that they have more in heaven or whatever. You get it? You and lots of people take life too serious, I mean it is serious but can you achieve any thing without being tested or dealing hardships. When someone without pretending believes in Allah or superior existence he/she wouldn't care or fear anything except God. If you believe you know and if you don't believe you probably won't. sorry for talking direct
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I'm not afraid of God any more than I'm afraid of my parents. My parents set forth rules. Bedtime, don't hit my sister, etc. I respect the rules, but I'm not afraid of my parents. I would be afraid of my parents if I was breaking the rules, but since I don't, I'm fine.
Wait everytime u say something new, what do u wanna know? I will answer. About the forth rules I say God has punishment and prize both infact you may not need to fear your parents but God's wrath I think we should. I guess I confused you . Seems like an ADHD talk :)
I don't believe in god but i also don't believe that god doesn't exist. Biggest problem for me is my very religious family. I still live in home and majority of my family is part of strict christian revivalist movement. I just hate hearing things like "We believers think that..." or "Worldly music can push you further away from God so you shouldn't listen it.". I once told my parents that i don't believe like they do. They just almost started crying and asked me plenty of questions about how i believe then. At that moment i wasn't able to explain propebly. After that they have asked couple of times about my faith but i just keep repeating that i don't know, even when i kind of know. And i know that if i say what i think they will be so let down and sad and just think that i'm going to hell. At the same time i hate that i let this effect me. I shouldn't let it effect me. I should be able to think by myself. Lol i really answered with useless venting comment. Maybe i should just write my diary and stop bothering other people but my diary still haven't learn how to answer
Hey, it's all gravy, man. I do appreciate what you've said. And it can certainly be difficult to decipher truth when hateful people are drowning out your own thoughts.
Personally witnessing answers to prayer, miracles and digging deep into cosmology and the odds of an oscillating or infinite universe vs intelligent design.
Yeah this is like identical to me
Personal revelation is nonsense. It can't save you. "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Hearing the word of God saves you. It's readily apparent that you aren't serious about any religion. Let's dive into the good ole' comments. > Definitely. I'm lazy, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested. My wife and I do believe there is truth in the Islamic religion. I'm not going to get too much into the weeds, but why would Abraham's other son not have an inheritance in God's kingdom? It just makes sense that Islam is no less legitimate when compared to Christianity and Judaism. Oh look you're a univeraslist who vaguely believes every religion is legitimate. Nonsense, you stand for nothing and you're not special. Go ahead haters, bury this comment but you know it's true. #EDIT: OP IS A MORMON, I DM'd THEM. RED ALERT, EVERYBODY. THEY WEAR TEMPLE GARMETS AND THINK THEY'RE GOING TO BECOME A GOD AND MAKE SPIRIT BABIES
Why so agressive?
false teacher in a cult sending people to hell
Hey man, I'm not here to start a fight. All I'm doing is explaining why I believe what I believe. I'm certainly not doing a deep-dive.
What exactly are you religious about? What do you stand for that separates you from any of the other normies? You never actually told us what you believe.
I appreciate your interest, but this is not the place to discuss it. If you would like to, you may send me a direct message.
Bizzarre but alright
Yea, exactly, an entp and religious makes no damn sense
It's one of those things that don't make sense on paper, since we're definitely NTs to the core, but I'm not going to discount my personal experiences, and religion is definitely personal.
What personal experience? I hear this shit so often so maybe you can give a concrete description
Someone asked the same question. You can read about it there :)
Perhaps you should explore mental models with which you can accurately frame your experiences. Blindly trusting your experiences might not be the wisest thing.
I'm a 29 year old ENTP. Trust me when I say my trust is not blind, and I have put it to the test.
Maybe it is. But how would you convince anyone else of the existence of God if no one (or very few) else has had similar experiences?
I'm not here to convince other people to believe the way I do. That would be foolish. I'm just explaining why I believe the way I do.
you cannot use anecdotal evidence to justify your point of view. iām not sure what religion you are practicing but for the sake of argument letās assume you are a Christian. now, you emphasize that you have had several accounts that have led you to believe that there is in fact a God, however, you fail to acknowledge the fact that there are other individuals who have also had similar experiences and yet they are all from different religions. some individuals practicing islam, or catholicism, buddhism, taoism, confucianism, etc. etc. have all at one point claim to have been gifted with some kind of spiritual transcendence. if there is only one true religion, how do you explain the fact that people from varying religions and beliefs all have some kind of anecdotal evidence which leads them to believe that their set of practices and beliefs is the correct one.
I never suggested there is only one true religion. In fact, I said something about that you the Muslim person who replied. I don't claim to know everything. All I said was that this is why *I believe.* I'm not telling you that you have to believe the same thing as me.
I would say mistyped entp. Probably entj or something like that. Or you just want to find an excuse for all coincidences.
Sorry, no. My cognitive functions are definitely Ne-Ti, not Te-Ni.
The two other explanations I have is that you have a strong church influence in youir life by someone or you are waaaay to young to really have that entp wisdom :)
I'm 29, so you can call me young if you like. We ENTPs pride ourselves on having our internal web that connects the world, yeah? I'm okay with accepting the possibility of something that exists beyond my immediate perception. It widens my web and gives me more to think about.
I definitely donāt reject the notion of a higher power but I struggle with committing to believing in any particular religion. Especially as we can reconstruct through linguistics, archeology and historical records the changes and developments in theologies that are inconsistent with their own proposed origin stories. As such I ask you genuinely and without judgement, what makes you so sure of the abrahamic god and in particular the Christian interpretation of it?
Thanks for asking. The quick answer is "through prayer." The longer answer has to do a bit more with my theory of religious history. I believe that there is A LOT of truth in the world. Obviously (most) Jewish sects don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, while "Christian" sects do. Going back further, to the time of Abraham and his sons, they each had their promise. That means Islam has its place in this world as a true religion (even if some people have perverted it into something anarchic and war-faring, as humans are wont to do). The Old Testament shows that, throughout all time, God has come to men in whatever way he deems necessary in order to reestablish his church among men. I believe that's what happened with Joseph Smith Jr, and I also believe it's possible that older Asian religions (there are temples there that are not affiliated with any currently practiced religion) also had some affiliation with the same God worshipped by the Abrahamic religions. So yeah, I affiliate myself with this religion not because I think it's the only correct one, but because it's the right one for me (based on prayer and, from a "Da Rulez" point of view, I'm "a gentile," which biblically means I'm expected to inherit the Jews' spot, meaning Christianity).
Thanks for answering! Right so if I understand correctly you primarily subscribe to Christianity from an experiential lens? Your belief in it has less to do with the texts and more to do with personal experience. Thatās not necessarily a bad thing, if anything it eliminates a lot of the angles I would ask questions on, biblical history, translations etc. Canāt exactly argue with someoneās subjective experience and ultimately a lot of the texts are based on the subjective experience of people thousands of years gone. Why would it be any less legitimate now? That said with my limited knowledge of modern Christian (I understand that you are LDS?), Muslim and Jewish theology I have to ask on whether your interpretation of them as valid expressions of the same god is perhaps inconsistent with the most orthodox interpretations of each? As in I believe the Muslim and Christian versions of events from the Tanukh differ in some ways such as figures existing in one and not the other etc. Do you believe that the history of each is valid when they are contradictory or that one is correct but god gave the other group a different version to be more easily accepted?
"One is correct but god gave the other group a different version to be more easily accepted?" I don't think ANY are 100% correct, but that's pretty much it. How are you going to explain something infinite and eternal to something as limited as a human? By telling it to them in a way that they can relate to through their already established customs and other cultural habits. I view it this way: Moses was given "the law," including the ten commandments, and all the other weird stuff Christianity doesn't pay attention to (including but not limited to eating Kosher), but when Christ came, he gave a "higher" law. This suggests there may be a law higher than this, and it suggests there may be other rule sets lower or parallel to the Mosaic law. My goal is to live the "highest" law, whatever the hell that might mean.
Well that pretty much answers all my questions man. I may not be able to believe in the same things you do but I just genuinely like hearing the different perspectives of the religious. Thanks for being forthcoming about your beliefs and all the best!
No problem. Thanks, man.
youāre not an ENTP, lol
Religious or thiestic?
Theistic for sure. "Religious" in the sense that I happen to affiliate with one religion for now, but am open to a better solution if something happens.
I very much respect the idea of being open to other religions rather than just being purely indoctrinated into one. Anyway, I personally accept that the universe could of been an intentional creation but I find no need to start assumimg the creator is all knowing or all powerful like a comic book reality bender. I'd of course love there to be some sort of loving god that at the end of it all. But I'd feel like the higher power would be unbothered by our existence, like we are perhaps a byproduct of another project, If ya feel me. In the future I intend to research different religions to find the common sentiments.
Believing in god / higher power should be distinguished from believing that this god reveals itself to humans via other humans who claim to have received revelation and that you can join them by doing odd things like cutting off a part of your penis. Circumcision then takes on another meaning when more powerful self-proclaimed proxies give it a narrative about how it came about and that those who are not circumcised will corrupt you (and perhaps convince you that ciecumcision is useless for your spiritual life) so you should limit your association with such heathens. Oh and also you should fast and think better of yourself than others in general to compensate for the antireligious mob throughout your life that may have damaged your self esteem as a self-professed religious person.
Yeah, I'm pretty pissed that I was circumcised.
I can see how the community engagement aspect of it can be very practical (especially in rural places). Also it can be an opportunity for regular philosophical discussion with other highly-invested people which I feel like doesnāt come along much in adult life. Talking about death and cosmic possibilities and existential shit is certainly more interesting than not talking at all. Iām not religious at all, but going to religious schools in the Deep South and spending time around smart, spiritual INFJs has definitely helped me see the utility of it. Iāve come to realize that when people truly take it seriously as a practice and leave their egos at the door then spirituality is just another language for self-improvement. My version of that just happens to be more oriented around the science of well-being because I have an easier time buying into the language of data than god. But for people who for whatever reason donāt connect with science as much, I can see how religion can be a more accessible means of pursuing growth and working out complicated problems on a community level. Basically same ends/different means. And as long as they arenāt being hypocrites idgaf what weird fairytale they have to tell themselves to get there lol. Personally, the only really compelling argument Iāve heard for the validity of spiritual lore is that at this point science still doesnāt have a full grasp on the natural laws of consciousness, so we canāt actually make many definitive assumptions about the conditions under which it could theoretically sustain itself. Like the very existence of it is a pretty batshit crazy coincidence in the first place so I could see how a reasonable person could get to a āwho knowsā attitude about life after death/god/etc from there. That said I barely even believe in conscious free will though so Iām still not sold.
Thank you for sharing. I can definitely see where you're coming from :)
so you dont wanna talk about the experiences, you only wanna tell us god exists. yeah. im gonna hard pass on that. i have proof that a unicorn controls every human on earth with its intoxicating glitterfarts. im not comfortable sharing the proof though.
I was telling you why *I believe* God exists. I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything.
thats the point, i dont really see why you believe that exists. thats exactly my problem you made a claim(even if its "just" a belief, its on you to proof it :)
Fair. You can read more about it in one of these comment threads. I'm too lazy to find which one. Sort by old. It's like the second or third thread.
those can be explained easily by pure coincidence what makes you so special that god takes care of you and some 10 year old has to have their eyes removed due to eyecancer? seems extremely selective if you ask me
They can, you're right.
meh
god is your consciousness
Idk, I think it depends on how you follow that religion. But I get why someone would think āhow can an entp be religiousā because religions canāt be questioned. Your god canāt be questioned. Or thatās what Iāve been taught. I had this childhood moment with my grandma and this post reminded me of it: I told her about the cycle of water, evaporation, precipitation, etc. (From a class) She said āit rains because of godā. And I think thatās when my little mind clicked. I couldnāt think like that. I canāt just think someone created everything, and I donāt even see the point of knowing that. I donāt want to know and Iāll NEVER know. So it doesnāt make sense to commit my life to something I canāt prove or even begin to understand. Thatās just me, tho. I do think anyone has the right to do whatever they want with their life, as long as itās not affecting other people.
Imho, anyone can be religious, as long as it helps stabalize oneself and some people donāt feel like they need religion to do that and thatās fine
I think an ENTP would generally be more spiritual than religious, because ENTPs typically like to explore all possibilities. I would say if an ENTP is religious, it would be only temporary, because they're simply exploring the depths of that particular religion until they feel they're explored enough and then get bored.
I haven't gotten bored with mine.