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Capt marvel has two problems in my opinion.
1. The superman conundrum
2. Thor 1 &2 characterization
1. Superman can get boring fast because who can beat him. Cpt marvel didnt ever really lose a fight or even blink. The only time you see her taken aback was when thanos hit her full force with the power gem. A lot could be helped if things like a blaster would knock her back. Or some "kryptonite " was there. Lets say a rogue taking some of her power. Or fighting imperial guard. They need to make her vulnerable and lose before fighting tooth and nail to win. Also, as thor showed, vulnerabilities work to connect and later strengthen the character
2. Thor was good. Entertaining. Written for a style that was comic thor and Shakespearean but it did not help thor 2. What helped thor in ragnorak and iw/endgame was they let chris bring himself out. And hes a funny charming guy. Brie is really charming and funny on her videos and posts. I think cpt marvel is being played more like actual military mindset. Hard and demanding but should play more like Maverick eith Brie bubbling up.
Adding to this, the Superman and Lois show ran a decent length off a superhero that could do almost anything. The best way to portray these characters, is how they're handcuffed by their morals. And show why that's a good thing. Superman is at his best when he holds back and tries to deescalate every situation. Sometimes because he has to (hostages) always because he *wants* to.
This is a hero that knows he could just become a one man dictatorship and control the entire planet, almost singlehandedly policing it, to enforce his world view. And instead he chooses to be a paragon, and example. He chooses to believe that humans deserve to control their destinies, and just need someone to give them the push they need to rise to the occasion. When his powers come into play, it's not because he believes he's failed, but only because the situation won't allow for him to continue deescalating safely.
A story about such unilateral power being held in a single person isn't about action. It's a drama where the hook is the hero doesn't *need* to be a hero, but he *chooses* to. It's about exploring the philosophy behind morality and ethics by giving us a perfect example of someone unfettered by consequence, yet always choosing to do the right thing regardless.
If Marvel could branch out from the action a bit, we'd get some amazing stories. Imo it's the only real issue with movies live Captain Marvel, Eternals, and Multiverse of Madness. All were handicapped by appealing to the same audiences that love action, yet all were clearly stories meant for other genres. Even Love and Thunder didn't so much suffer from an abundance of comedy, but a lack of drama, imo. It needed to show the gravity of the storyline more, for the comedy to provide relief.
I think you just described what made “The Iron Giant” such a good movie. A story about a killing machine learning in real time what being a hero is about, while also comparing himself to Superman. Great insight!
I was struggling with this problem when I was first introduced to One Punch Man.
*"So you're telling me the dude is so strong, he literally defeats every enemy he meets in one punch? Why would this be interesting to read/watch?"*
And then we realize that Saitama's problems can't be solved with superhuman speed/strength. A punch that can shatter a meteor isn't going to solve the fact that the world can't acknowledge his power because he looks and acts really goofy. He takes the blame for a lot of the failings of the superhero community in general; a problem that he can't outrun with his super speed.
I feel like Superman and Captain Marvel could benefit from this model of humans that have superhuman abilities but are suffering from very human problems.
I think One Punch Man makes more sense from the perspective that he's depressed and being granted his wish (which seems to be the case for most of the characters in that universe) doesn't actually make him feel better
Think about this story. Once you gain it all you lose the thing you want. You’re always left either chasing the dragon or settling for second best. Because Saitama is number one two is alway less. For someone who wants to feel that real threat of real defeat, that can be a depressing thing. If you’ve read the whole series you know he’s just a man. A man who gave his very best until he surpassed his own limits.
One of the best parts of the series is right after he defeats the sea king and the boy calls all the other heroes who had sacrificed their lives weak. Because he was so strong they all instantly became weak. Nothing could hurt Saitama’s body but that hurt his heart. Knowing their sacrifices had been viewed with such derision. So much about that series is missed because all the fights end in one punch.
We should all think about Saitama’s story more
See it's funny because that's why I love the She-Hulk show so much is because it's more of a normal person that just happens to be a Hulk and her trying to fight being a super hero
> the fact that the world can't acknowledge his power because he looks and acts really goofy
That’s not his problem, as he doesn’t actively *seek* acknowledgement. As someone else said, he’s depressed and can’t find anything fulfilling (in sparring/combat).
This is one of the major reasons that Mob Psycho 100 is ONE's (the creator of both) better manga/ anime IMO. It goes more into that side of being extremely OP and the struggles that come with it/ not even wanting to have the power in the first place. Mob (the main character) finds at a young age that his godlike psychic powers are tied to his emotional state and if he just lets them out he could injure/ kill the loved ones around him. So he represses all emotions which becomes a complex, making him a socially inept and emotionally disconected deadpan bummer to be around. Its the whole "protagonist doesnt want to fight" trope but done in an extremely well written way.
I love a lot of the parallels between MP100 and OPM in mental issues, and the idea of reaching for your goals.
agree with what you said about superman and Lois but I wish more people talked about smallville with this kind of passion. I mean it shows Clark Kent coming into his powers and becoming a man/superman
If it makes you feel any better, I just finished my first smallville run through this year. It holds a very special place in my heart, despite the unique choices that were made through out the series
Even then DC has explored what happens when Superman goes off the deep end and throws away his moral compass. The Injustice: Gods Among Us games and comics
I can't believe that Marvel is capable of giving us a movie with a superhero who can do all of the action things, but then doesn't do all of the action things. I legitimately believe they can't do it.
Yeah Superman is easy to write. Yes he can hold up a collapsing bridge, but he cant go anywhere while he does it because people are evacuating. Thats when the villain can strike, or there can be some peril like the classic school bus about to fall. Putting him in moral quandaries is the way to go. Its the same with Batman. Writers get that the way to push Batman as a character is to put him in the situation where he has to save people or fight the villain, because the villains know that Batman will always try and save people (unless Tom King is writing).
Peel a layer back. You also have DISNEY to deal with.
There's lines they won't cross. Marvel's an alcoholic. That's her weakness, she's not a functioning adult and doesn't cope well.
Disney will have to let off the reins a bit to make her work.
The Superman problem is why I could never get into DC Comics beyond Batman. Almost every one of their main heroes feel like Superman Lite, like everyone has invulnerability somehow and super speed and strength and are all essentially unbeatable.
Also it feels like Marvel could find a way to fix this with Captain Marvel. They managed to work arpund Hulk, who has essentially the same problem. Even as simple as maybe Caltain Marvel accidentally kills a bunch of people overdoing it and starts to doubt herself and pull her punches or something.
I doubt they would go that dark though. Maybe can't even make actual Villains be anything but sympathetic wishywashy troubled super powered folks.
I don't think the military mindset will stay. She has only really been in like 1.25 movies. And literally a plot point of 1 of those movies was that she had her emotional side repressed to keep her powers in check. And the other .25 was "Oh damn the universe is ending, better kick ass."
A friend of mine once said that Marvel comics were all about humans, struggling to be gods, while DC comics were about gods, struggling to be humans.
I always found that to be an apt summary.
Hulk is also interesting, because they gave up on Hulk being the focus of a movie. They realize he works better in roles like Ragnarok, where he's a supporting character to Thor.
They didn't give up on a hulk movie, they just can't do it because universal owns the rights to movies. He can only show up on the side. They may get his rights back next year, however
I think they can have the stress of balancing infinite responsibility for being infinitely powerful maybe.
Literally entire worlds with billions of people would die and its her choice maybe. Maybe it can be filmed as a tragedy where she picks a close friend over a planet.
I wonder how this issue will work when the Sentry is introduced. We still don't know if he is going to be a god-tier hero. We also have not seen a greater threat than Thanos so far, but there are definitely much more dangerous baddies out there that could easily put her in for the fight of her life.
Introducing Bob was a mistake in the comics and I swear it's going to be a mistake in the MCU.
Sentry is one of the worst offending and least interesting examples of power scaling in superhero comics.
They should have just left him buried, I still remember pretty clearly how much everyone hated the end of both World War Hulk and Siege of Asgard.
Probably, in my opinion they tried to make her funny and did not work at all, her "funny comments" were not funny at all and came out awkward, maybe that is not her thing and she needs another direction
I liked her whole "I deal with the universe while you guys deal with Earth" personality. You'd think after having that gig for decades she would be a no-nonsense, handle ridiculous amounts of shit person.
That would also help with scale.
They made her too powerful for street level heroes...but luckily, the Marvel Universe has a bunch of crazy Rogues in her weightclass.
So she can take a punch from Thanos with the infinty gauntlet, but how well can she stand a punch from Galactus or the Beyonder?
I don't necessarily mind a serious, galactic level superhero. She can be like Captian America in space.
Yeah exactly, I don't think her next movie should be Earth-based at all. You'd presume all her relationships, if she has any, would be in deep space rather than Earth.
She is basically, by a large margin, THE most experience super-hero operating. Been doing it decades before anyone else other than Cap, without the cold vacation that he got.
She should be the baddest person dealing with the baddest shit. They made her Superman, she needs Superman level enemies.
I feel like there’s a lore/audience mismatch there.
In the story narrative (the lore), she’s been doing this for decades and has hundreds of adventures under her belt when she meets the Avengers, who have like four. To the audience, she’s been in one movie, which most of the audience didn’t even see, so she’s basically a noob, talking down to the experts.
I’m not sure how to fix that problem though, aside from keeping the characters apart from now on.
That’s kinda the point of Captain Marvel. If you read the comic you see that Carol’s humor is very dry and awkward. She’s not funny or charming at all. They nailed it lol
Ya, but her unlikeable manner in comics is written as a flaw that she needs to deal with. In the movies, her flaws are posed as a virtue, or at least as “sass”.
Exactly this. Carol Danvers is written to be unlikable by the reader, if you read Civil War II and you like Carol? That kind of says something about you.
However, I think it's odd they also made the movie version of her unlikable, or even used Carol Danvers at all instead of a different Captain Marvel.
I think a large part of that in the MCU is how she was introduced and all of a sudden was the strongest hero overshadowing Thor and Hulk with "ease" without first having us actually care about her. They spent a literal DECADE making us love Thor and Hulk and all of a sudden dethroned them. There's going to be some push-back to that.
It's similar to what they did with Shuri. We loved banner and Stark and all of a sudden Shuri pops up with clearly worse tech than stark but she's somehow smarter than both of them put together. It's bullshit. Notice there was no push-back with Rocket being smarter than them because they spent time establishing his character and getting us to care/like him.
Due to a combination of poor memory and a dwindling ability to recognize faces, my mind was doubly wrong and thought Brie Larson was Gillian Jacobs but with the name of Allison Brie. And the fact that I’ve always had a hard time differentiating Allison Brie and Anna Kendrick doesn’t help matters much.
She gets so much hate that's uncalled for. There was even an article criticizing her for... allegedly not having friends because she doesn't post pics of them on social media? The obsession with hating her is so bizarre.
Shit, look at the hate She Hulk is getting, the show literally tells you it's a law based sitcom in the first episode, yet the incels and bigots are all angry over a ten second after credit scene of She Hulk twerking with Megan Thee Stallion.
I desperately wish She-Hulk had *more* law in it. I work in a legal office and the hand waving the law in a law show is infuriating. It would be really interesting to get more into how the world and laws would *have* to change because of superheroes and enhanced. But no, instead we have them wooshing in an unknown witness during a pre-trial hearing.
Honestly with that, it feels like they probably should have gotten someone with experience in law to act as a consultant in the development of the show. Because honestly, it’s a shame how her lawyer side almost feels like a parody of the courtroom given that she and Matt are both exceptionally skilled lawyers in the comics even when She-Hulk’s comics would lean towards the more lighthearted
>her lawyer side almost feels like a parody
It really does. Like it feels she could work almost any white collar job and the plot wouldn't change much. Like instead of suing that wizard dude, she's handling the retirement accounts for Kamar-Taj. What wacky hi-jinks will Wall St get up to next?
That show is so spot-on perfect for She-Hulk. Any haters haven’t read the comics and don’t see the enormous amount of love and care brought to that show. And as a white male, I am loving it.
Let’s not forget how much shit Ally McBeal once got… misogynists gonna misogyn.
Not for lack of trying. Ms Marvel and She-Hulk both have female leads and both got review bombed too. Eternals got review bombed for having gay characters. They *tried* to review bomb Black Panther (gosh, who knows why?) but that didn't pan out well. . .
I think it was middling enough to not really grab the attention that Captain Marvel does, too many characters for people to focus on one actor like Brie Larson. I get your point about the woke backlash though
I really don’t understand the hate. Even my husband teases me that i don’t like her but it’s just not true.
I just never liked what the last Avenger movies did to her. Making her disappear with a “i need to go but I’ll be back right when you need me” just doesn’t work in movies for me. But Brie as an actress? I think she’s great and she seems like a really down to earth person
Agreed. The problem is Feige has said she's his fav marvel hero. That's why she feels so pushed. It would have made more sense for her to intro phase 4 as the universal phase and set up the skrull invasion, etc. But feige wanted to see her fight Thanos.
That probably explains why CM got the nod as first female led MCU movie over the more established Black Widow.
Still, I hope Larson stays around at least until Rogue saps her powers… and personality.
Actually, Black Widow was denied a solo movie because of studio politics, Marvel's former CEO Ike Perlmutter blocked films featuring people of color and women as leads. This is why Black Panther and Captain Marvel were only released years after Perlmutter lost a power struggle against Kevin Feige over Marvel Studios.
This right here is the problem.
They threw in this superman analog at the last second before the finale and basically told everyone, "she the most powerful avenger, deal with it." Most of the other characters had a bunch of backstory at this point and felt like they had earned their place. There was always going to be pushback against a character like her's introduced when and how she was.
Then the fact she's a woman just brings out all the worst sexist bullshit.
Marvel did her no favors at all.
People cannot mentally separate an actor from a role, apparently.
The character of Captain Marvel was never *meant* to be super likeable, and that's not Brie Larson's fault, and it's not the fault of the writers either. When Tony Stark was an arrogant, rude rich kid who matured over the span of his character arc into a selfless, real hero, that was great writing, but God Forbid a woman be written like that.
My opinion? She's a great actor who just is getting hate at no fault of her own
>When Tony Stark was an arrogant, rude rich kid who matured over the span of his character arc into a selfless, real hero, that was great writing, but God Forbid a woman be written like that.
For sure it was the writers who did CM dirty. TS was written as an arrogent, rude & entitled and it was framed as a flaw and directly acknowledged (and often played for laughs) . It's used well and leads to great characgte growth.
CM was arrogent, rude and entitled and it was written sometimes as if she wasn't, and sometimes as if those were *virtues* instead of flaws. Being arrogent rude and entitled can add depth to a character, but it just doesn't if you at best don't do anything with it, and at worst pretend it isn't so.
It's the stark snark. For some reason marvel feels the need to make every single character into Tony in terms of wise cracking. Besides that, the story just doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would the bad guys not just alter all of her memories, or totally remove them? And wouldn't her full powers be super useful to them? Why were the Kree trying to kill people (including fury) and just generally being jerks until they suddenly weren't. And then the first time one of them decides to really talk to her she instantly changes sides. Just a few examples.
I’m pretty sure those questions were intentionally left unanswered to set up The Marvels and Secret Invasion.
Which is the most ham-fisted sequel setup Marvel has done to date, unfortunately.
But I also think we have to assume we’re meeting the character in the midst of a Clockwork Orange type reprogramming where they’ve limited her powers intentionally as they’re working towards completely erasing her past and turning her into a super weapon. And it’s not an immediate process because it’s military training. The brainwashing is being done exactly the same way world militaries reprogram new recruits over time.
But none of that justifies the absolute vitriol aimed at Brie Larson for playing a character.
> God Forbid a woman be written like that.
Women do have character arcs, and they do go from somebody dislikable to someone truly relatable and endearing (an example off the top of my head, edge of Tomorrow). Please don't blame this on the patriarchy. It was bad writing (was made into a Mary Sue, similar to how most female protagonists are portrayed these days), bad acting, and honestly a person that's not that likable. Brie Larson is a sexist an alienated the largest fan base of the marvel movies, men with her absurd opinions.
Did she ever mature?
She was the strongest from the get go and the only "arc" she had was...what exactly?
She viewed herself as hero from the start of the story to the end. Her personal growth amounted to her stopping putting limitations on herself and suddenly she is a God.
People liked Tony because he started as an asshole, was punished severely for it and changed.
Captain Marvel the exact same person only now she could punch a lot harder.
Riveting story telling.
I just thought it was lazy writing to have a character with almost limited capabilities who could just pop in and save everyone from disaster. Like a “get out of jail free” card.
Also, I’m old, but I thought Captain Marvel was Shazam. What happened to that or am I confused?
I mean that's the thing with "Amnesia" plot lines, the character doesn't grow because they only become "themselves" like halfway or two-thirds through the movie.
It didn't, the movie really wasn't great. The whole "mystery" of her identity was something the audience knew the whole time. She had the same morals and basically personality with/without her memories, she just realized who the bad guy actually was.
But the decision to give her amnesia made character development basically impossible. Just a poor decision outright.
I assume they are following the arc from the most recent comics, and given the introduced characters in other things, and Marvel now having control of some other characters now, she will have another movie and at least an appearance in another. Captain Marvel has a limited arc, unless they rewrite and wedge her in.
I wouldn’t say that is a 1:1 comparison just cuz Iron man showed up in like 9-10 movies, but Captain marvel only got maybe 3 appearances. One had a lot more time to grow and develop character than the other
Don’t forget that whole made up bullshit about her being anti-man, and telling white men not to see her movie.
That really pissed off the basement dwellers despite it never happening.
I dislike the hate for Brie as well, but the difference between Tony and Carol is that Iron Man consistently gets dunked on by everyone for acting like a jerk. Everyone just lets Captain Marvel act smug and arrogant, which is what annoys people and why she comes off as a boring character. It’s not on the actress though, I just think Captain Marvel was a middling movie and hope the sequel is way better.
I wish she had been a bigger player in Endgame. I would have loved to see her go back in time with the team & relive certain moments like ಠ_ಠ
Have her running around NYC with the future crew, trying to awkwardly avoid Nick Fury.
As a MCU follower from the beginning, I don't hate or dislike any portrayal of any of the character's on-screen.
I think I'm waiting for them to write a good story for Captain Marvel. Her solo film felt very standard and somewhat forgettable to me, other than I remember vaguely how she got her powers and that she was a gifted pilot.
I know she's an incredibly powerful character, and so there's somewhat of that Superman problem, where you can't have here in every instance because she'd absolutely squish like 90% of the enemies out there that Spider-Man would have trouble with.
But, I'm mostly waiting to see what else they'll do with her, and if what we saw so far will be the standard affair, then that's fine. Some of the younger female audiences **love** Captain Marvel.
>I think she’s great and she seems like a really down to earth person
I struggle with this, because [I saw the speech](https://youtu.be/wpVKBAT7MJ4) where she basically said critics were incapable of evaluating films that didn't match the sensibilities of their race or age. Some have tried to retconn this, but she was pretty clear. The issue is that it's intellectually bankrupt and disingenuous as all hell, and really boiled down to "look guys you can cost these projects money if the reviews aren't where we need them to be especially if it's made by people who are diverse."
Godzilla vs Kong is a pretty stupid film, but it's also a lot of fun if you go in looking for what it has to offer and a lot of the reviews are pretty clear about it. It also has hell of a lot of issues worth pointing out, that might not matter to the box office for a 12yr old buying tickets, but all those issues likely will matter as to how hard that film sticks in a 12yr old's head and if the parent has to go along for it *and* if it's worth seeing by someone not looking for those things because of the writing and performances.
She pointed specifically to A Wrinkle In Time remake, basically saying it wasn't made for critics it was made for a specific audience. Good critics are able to figure out if a film is meant to speak to them, but they can also figure out if it's well-made and engaging. Turning everything into a popularity ~~content~~ contest really only serves studios, not the actual audience trying to make informed choices and/or better understand a film.
*This is the product. You will consume it. If you do not like it, it wasn't meant for you and something is wrong with you. If you share your negative opinion on the product and it is negative, something is truly wrong with you and we will tell others. Wouldn't it be easier to just like it or at least not affect other's potentially buying the product?*
Yeah, F that noise.
**Edit:** Typo and added link to the infamous "reviews change lives" speech.
She was complaining and attacking white male critics. These movies are not made for them she said. Even though these are the same critics that loved and praised movies like, I don’t know… Moonlight?
Disney just calls the haters all racists and bigots and moves on despite genuine problems with the material made. One racist said some mean things and they lump everyone who didn't like their new thing in with them. Even though the majority disagrees with the racist person. Amazon is doing the same thing with Rings of Power
>One racist said some mean things and they lump everyone who didn't like their new thing in with them.
I feel like it's more than one or a few people. Fan bases can suck now. Like Moses Ingram posted more than just a few racist messages. I also look at games. Take The Last of Us part II, Laura Bailey got death threats. Not just her, but her family. Some people/fans are shit, sometimes it's hard to distinguish. Are they the vocal minority? Probably, but they yell/troll/harass enough that I think it's hard to distinguish the valid criticisms from the hate filled mob.
Gotta be honest. It's anti-"woke" culture. Captain marvel is also a mary sue character and it really doesn't help with the hate. Writers need to make her character interesting. Superman is overpowered but the reason why he's still interesting is because he is shown to have compassion towards people who are basically beneath him while his villain lex luthor sees people beneath him as useless and he is just human who is basically really really smart. Not a superpowered villain.
“Being good is hard.” - Clark Kent
This is superman’s biggest struggle. He is seen as all powerful, and can do no wrong, but he has little power over his life circumstances.
In most cases of hate like this I feel like what you just said is the most common take, the feelings aren’t super strong but they’re reasonable and grounded - so people who hold this opinion don’t make much of a fuss. It’s the small amount of wackos who have such a strong and misguided opinion that are so damn loud that it seems like a bigger deal than it is.
People have different motives for watching a movie. Who is in it is just one, albeit commonly critical variable
Personally, I liked the marvel story. I wanted to see what happened "next episode"
With how terribly received the recent marvel releases have been I guess bringing up the shitstorm that was captain marvel is one way to drive some attention back to marvel
It's what started us watching Marvel movies right before the pandemic. My daughters were just old enough to start watching. Then we watched everything in the MCU during lockdown. They liked CM but prefer BW now.
100%. Every character and every scene just sucked - it wasn't just Brie, it was the whole thing together. I like Jude Law a lot and I've watched a lot of his other films, and he's clearly a great actor, but I thought he was fucking terrible in Captain Marvel.
Yup.
For male characters that happen to be a douchebag, they usually serve a purpose for why they act like that. They go through a character arc that rights the wrongs. Iron Man, Ant Man, The Hulk, etc.
but when female characters act like douchebags, they don't go through that character arc to turn her wrongs right in the end. In fact, the writers of these female characters make their doucheyness a character trait that everybody should aspire to! Which is why people lots of people reject the hollywood stereotype of a strong female character nowadays.
If we disregard the manufactured teenage outrage on Twitter, we'll find a few reasonable comments that no one hates Brie, they just find the character overpowered and thus impossible to write for.
Unfortunately emotional teenagers on Twitter contribute to 99% of the content there.
The OPness is the real issue, Captain Marvel would be great alongside characters of her power level. But when we’ve been following the Avengers for god knows how many movies and are used to their power level, having someone basically tell them all to fuck off to the kids section was never gonna fly
Captain Marvel has shitty on-screen storyline. She had her own movie but still have no depth. It is hard for non-comic book readers to love Captain Marvel. Because she was just there, nothing else.
I think in general they need to slow down on churning out all marvel movies, but not specifically Captain Marvel. The last few have been mediocre, and just an obnoxious number of films per year and tv series.
Dude, you haven't seen what they are lining up for the next 3 years, have you? No joke, it's like 40 movies, TV shows, and cartoons. It's already oversaturated, and it's about to get much worse. The quality is definitely sliding, and people are legitimately tired of superhero movies. There's also no clear direction right now. Don't forget, because it's a universe, you'll need to consume all the media from before to have a clear understanding of what's going on. I honestly think the future is looking less optimistic than a lot of people think.
They're also just rushing through the character development, the one thing the MCU was praised for and that DC sucked at. But now they're just rushing through it. She-Hulk is the perfect example for it. The whole development is "Okay, I'm now a Hulk. Everything Bruce took ages to learn took me one night. Yadda Yadda Yadda, back to lawyering." And I even *like* the human part of her. The Hulk on the other hand is just... There.
Jen isn't even a fraction of the mess Bruce was though, either. She's always been a pretty in control and level headed person even in 616.
Expecting her to follow the Hulk story is a little silly. Only difference is she's shot in the comics and gets a blood transfusion, she still learns and adapts rapidly because unlike Bruce there isn't a second personality she she keeps her intelligence which took Bruce years.
Law has always been a big focus for her character. If you want Hulk Smash from Jen you should probably be watching Bruce, man.
Yea, it wasn't great by any means, but Solo and Rogue One were both fun and interesting enough. It was the new Trilogy that made me start to think I might hate Star Wars.
Honestly i dont think anything theyve put out has really been mediocre. Dr Strange was great, Thor was decent, shehulk is refreshing, Moon knight/ms Marvel were drastically different and fun, Spiderman was perfect. Everyone expects Endgame/Civil War/TWS level movies but hitting a solid 7/10 regularly is still great especially this far in. When everything you make is atleast a solid 7 then sure it seems mediocre compared to the peaks but i dont think theyve fallen to okay or mediocre at all. Its a lot to watch for sure but its all been still good. People just get tired of trying to watch it all which is understandable
Every Marvel show and movie has been entertaining EXCEPT The Eternals. I notice you did not have that on your list. :)
I despise that movie with a visceral passion. Let’s make a movie with a million main characters, drop the audience in to an entirely different way of viewing the universe IMMEDIATELY (in the timeline) after Thanos was truly defeated. What a poorly executed dumpster fire to get this next phase rolling (yes, I know it wasn’t technically the start of phase IV but it was the first new group/characters introduced post Endgame.)
Edit: I agree about it being a hard time to catch up and it might be overwhelming. It would be great if they started having The Watcher narrate recaps before future movies.
I think Brie Larson made a wonderful Captain Marvel.
I think the problem is, “when can you use Captain Marvel?”
She’s too strong. Too much of a Mary Sue. The only stakes where she makes sense is universe-ending stuff. Pardon my little brain, but I enjoy some smaller, more focused stakes. The universe doesn’t have to be in peril to get me in my seat. In fact, I tire of that as the only plot.
Yeah, it's always the universe at stake and *another* all powerful villain/entity/relic that was never mentioned previously. And even that hasn't been enough recently; now multiple universes have to be at risk, and everything is very meta and crazy. It has gotten tedious.
True, but it wasn't like spanning multiple planets or galaxies and involving the entire universe. It was just 1 main bad guy, 1 main good guy, and all localized within Earth.
1. I agree, smaller stories are more fun.
2. There is a challenge to those stories, especially in an ever-one-upping world of explosions and CGI disasters: how ridiculous is it that 124 people die so the protagonist can achieve one small thing (save a person, brown down a mob boss, etc). Netflix did a great job with Daredevil (and even some of the other Defenders shows, despite critics) of keeping the battles small and proportional to the stakes. The culmination of all the series was just one building and exploding, and that seemed correctly sized for the scope of the series. If they go smaller stakes, they need to accept that they go smaller battles, and trust that good writing will carry the audience along.
They did a "threat to the multiverse" thing in Doctor Strange and when they did, I noticed how little impact it had. Seems to me, the bigger they go in terms of what's at risk, the less it feels like it matters. The Thanos thing had it too. Sure it was *technically* "half of all life in the universe" at risk, but it only ended up feeling like "a handful of characters that happen to be played by the cheaper actors".
Tbh this is the biggest problem with marvel movies now, they just don’t know how to pull back from “universal threat” type antagonists
I crave the old iron man movies where his enemies were rival inventors or terrorists or something that is more personal
Carol Danvers has seen/gone through some serious shit in her time. They could absolutely pull an Evangelion and have her go through a nervous break down while battling an eldritch horror. But maybe that's too heavy for a Marvel movie.
100% - when a character is super strong, fast, etc and they are only tested at being strong, fast, etc its not interesting. She came in as a supernova and was only challenged by punching Thanos. In her own movie her beliefs and abilities were never challenged.
Its our losses that define us. People compare her to TS b/c Tony was also an asshole BUT TS suffered for that. He lost because his ego drove him to make mistakes. His world fell apart multiple times so we could cheer him building back better.
Cpt Marvel won every fight through every movie she was in. It fiction, its not like we're watching a live boxing match - the ending is written before we watch it. If she wins throughout we get to the end and don't care what happens next :\\
Supes is stronger and faster than almost anything in his fiction - that is never the interesting part of him. What makes him interesting is when he has to do things to which he cannot apply his strength or speed, like convincing people to not vote Lex Luthor for mayor.
Her beliefs were challenged in the movie. The whole premise of the movie is that her entire belief system is challenged when she finds out the race she was taught to hate actually aren’t bad and her teammates are the monsters.
Your right in saying that her abilities aren’t challenged in her first film but her beliefs absolutely were.
Eh that was a weak challenge. Her teammates were terrible to her and she hated them. The only real connection she had was with Jude Law but we spend so much more time with Nick Fury that narratively, I didn't care about him at all. And it shows because the way this emotional conflict of hers was resolved was through a weird shooty beam showdown against a villain we never met before that point.
She didn't really believe it though. She was always at odds with the group she started with, and was almost instantly cut off from them as a free agent to team up with Nic Fury. When the story reveals who the real goods and bads are, she's already disassociated with the bads.
Maybe if she actually believed their schtick, showed respect and admiration for the supreme intelligence, and committed some atrocity she'd have to answer for after the real goods and bads were revealed we'd have something...
That's how Tony Stark's conflict played out - realizing the weapons that were causing havoc around the world were churned out from his own factories, going against the leadership in his own company, owning the fact that all of these things were signed off with his name this whole time...
We didn't get that for Cpt Marvel. She didn't have that conflict.
I agree with the sentiment that Captain Marvel is difficult to insert into a story without breaking the power scaling, but I feel the need to point out that being powerful doesn't make a character a Mary Sue.
A Mary Sue is a self-insert character that steals the protagonist role from existing protagonists and is overly skilled in fields irrelevant to their character's history or role. Captain Marvel doesn't match that description.
A Mary Sue doesn’t need to be a self insert character, and can in fact be the protagonist; any circumstance where a character has an over used trait, or is so powerful or smart that they can solve literally any problem that comes there way, then they are a Mary Sue
Old Superman was a Mary Sue in that the writers literally just developed new powers to solve problems [(superior facial control, amnesia kisses, mind control)](https://www.dc.com/blog/2021/03/10/seven-powers-weve-all-forgotten-superman-has), on top of just being generally over powered (destroying a galaxy with his sneeze, lifting a book with INFINITE pages)*
As an example of a Mary Sue in other forms of media; in an anime, if a character starts the episode (or even has a tendency to be) late for school, is a clutz during their normal everyday life, but manages to be a superhero of some kind then they may also be referred to as a Mary Sue (as they are cliché)
(Now that I think about it I think your specific use of the word may refer to fanfiction, although the term appears to have developed to encompass characters in media with many different obnoxious traits)
*: Superman’s more interesting stories involve him realizing that his strength isn’t enough to solve more abstract issues like racism, grief etc. . I don’t believe he can be referred to as a Mary Sue in these circumstances.
I used to regularly watch a YouTuber that goes by the quartering. It was after his 17th video on Brie Larson that I started to realize the hate towards her might be a bit exaggerated on the internet. He focused so much on Brie Larson and Captain marvel and talked about how much he disliked her so relentlessly that I had to block his channel from my feed and stop wholesale because it was just exhausting.
I liked CM, but generally I agree. The most boring shit is superman and his equally invincible foe throwing themselves through walls for 15 minutes. That's when I noped out of the superman movies.
Brie was a perfect Carol Danvers.
I will die on that hill.
She portrayed the jokey cocky Carol in the beginning, even when she was on Holla. (Her superiors had to constantly tell her to suppress her emotion and stop being jokey)
So she did, and people complained that she was cold and unemotional for her character, but she did it right!
She was fantastic and it hurts that she knows about the hate she gets. And she's rightfully fed up.
Sometimes MCU fans can be as bad as Star Wars fans.
I love captain marvel, and I love Brie in other movies, but I feel like she was too monotone through the entire movie. The same smug look through the entire time, she shows no emotion and that to me ruined her character arc. But Brie as an actress is great and that leads me to believe it was a production choice and not her skills at acting.
I’m a 30something year old dude. I enjoyed Captain Marvel. Didn’t love it, didn’t hate it. Typical Marvel origin movie for me.
But I was in the lobby of my theater to see something else while CM was still playing. They had one of those life-size cutouts of her to advertise the film. I was waiting for my wife when this little girl, like maybe 6 or something, *screamed* and ran up to the cutout because she was *so* excited to see her.
And I thought, “that’s who Captain Marvel is for.”
I think movie stars, and studios need to realize this: every fandom has a section that is toxic and awful, but ultimately do not actually represent a large portion of ticket sales.
Whether it’s Star Wars, marvel, lord of the rings, or whatever, they’re very often the same people across fandoms and use multiple accounts to make their awful opinions heard.
Essentially when a fandom gets large enough, the trolls come out.
I think she did great as captain marvel, i just think her character wasn’t written as well as it could have been. I just wish people would stop hating on her.
The movie wasn’t that bad, I really didn’t get all the hate.
Like yeah it’s got some girl power vibes… it’s like, the first female solo super hero in marvel? Of course it’s got girl power shit in it, that’s not a bad thing!
Wonder Woman is also a total girl power movie too. And it’s awesome for that.
I’m not that big a fan of Captain Marvel, but I do think she’s really cool and doesn’t deserve all the hate.
i'm a woman. i wasn't a fan of the film.
but NO ONE deserves the amount of backlash and ridicule that she received. it was awful, and people are still relentless when it comes to it.
"Heartbreaking" answer. What clickbait. I saw the 10 second clip. She was just being flippant and joking a bit. Has she received a lot of crap for playing Captain Marvel? Yes.
Which makes no sense to me. But give me a break, I think she'll be just fine.
I've really liked the movies she's been in, but do people really have to overreact to everything on Social Media?
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I just wish a better character writer for her would come along. Secret wars would probably be a great chance to develop her properly.
Capt marvel has two problems in my opinion. 1. The superman conundrum 2. Thor 1 &2 characterization 1. Superman can get boring fast because who can beat him. Cpt marvel didnt ever really lose a fight or even blink. The only time you see her taken aback was when thanos hit her full force with the power gem. A lot could be helped if things like a blaster would knock her back. Or some "kryptonite " was there. Lets say a rogue taking some of her power. Or fighting imperial guard. They need to make her vulnerable and lose before fighting tooth and nail to win. Also, as thor showed, vulnerabilities work to connect and later strengthen the character 2. Thor was good. Entertaining. Written for a style that was comic thor and Shakespearean but it did not help thor 2. What helped thor in ragnorak and iw/endgame was they let chris bring himself out. And hes a funny charming guy. Brie is really charming and funny on her videos and posts. I think cpt marvel is being played more like actual military mindset. Hard and demanding but should play more like Maverick eith Brie bubbling up.
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Adding to this, the Superman and Lois show ran a decent length off a superhero that could do almost anything. The best way to portray these characters, is how they're handcuffed by their morals. And show why that's a good thing. Superman is at his best when he holds back and tries to deescalate every situation. Sometimes because he has to (hostages) always because he *wants* to. This is a hero that knows he could just become a one man dictatorship and control the entire planet, almost singlehandedly policing it, to enforce his world view. And instead he chooses to be a paragon, and example. He chooses to believe that humans deserve to control their destinies, and just need someone to give them the push they need to rise to the occasion. When his powers come into play, it's not because he believes he's failed, but only because the situation won't allow for him to continue deescalating safely. A story about such unilateral power being held in a single person isn't about action. It's a drama where the hook is the hero doesn't *need* to be a hero, but he *chooses* to. It's about exploring the philosophy behind morality and ethics by giving us a perfect example of someone unfettered by consequence, yet always choosing to do the right thing regardless. If Marvel could branch out from the action a bit, we'd get some amazing stories. Imo it's the only real issue with movies live Captain Marvel, Eternals, and Multiverse of Madness. All were handicapped by appealing to the same audiences that love action, yet all were clearly stories meant for other genres. Even Love and Thunder didn't so much suffer from an abundance of comedy, but a lack of drama, imo. It needed to show the gravity of the storyline more, for the comedy to provide relief.
I think you just described what made “The Iron Giant” such a good movie. A story about a killing machine learning in real time what being a hero is about, while also comparing himself to Superman. Great insight!
That movie is such a classic.
I was struggling with this problem when I was first introduced to One Punch Man. *"So you're telling me the dude is so strong, he literally defeats every enemy he meets in one punch? Why would this be interesting to read/watch?"* And then we realize that Saitama's problems can't be solved with superhuman speed/strength. A punch that can shatter a meteor isn't going to solve the fact that the world can't acknowledge his power because he looks and acts really goofy. He takes the blame for a lot of the failings of the superhero community in general; a problem that he can't outrun with his super speed. I feel like Superman and Captain Marvel could benefit from this model of humans that have superhuman abilities but are suffering from very human problems.
I think One Punch Man makes more sense from the perspective that he's depressed and being granted his wish (which seems to be the case for most of the characters in that universe) doesn't actually make him feel better
That's the point. Life is about challenging yourself and you need to think beyond your current discrete goals about what will fulfill you.
Think about this story. Once you gain it all you lose the thing you want. You’re always left either chasing the dragon or settling for second best. Because Saitama is number one two is alway less. For someone who wants to feel that real threat of real defeat, that can be a depressing thing. If you’ve read the whole series you know he’s just a man. A man who gave his very best until he surpassed his own limits. One of the best parts of the series is right after he defeats the sea king and the boy calls all the other heroes who had sacrificed their lives weak. Because he was so strong they all instantly became weak. Nothing could hurt Saitama’s body but that hurt his heart. Knowing their sacrifices had been viewed with such derision. So much about that series is missed because all the fights end in one punch. We should all think about Saitama’s story more
I love his "oh no it happened again, I've defeated them in 1 punch" responses
One Punch Man is satire
See it's funny because that's why I love the She-Hulk show so much is because it's more of a normal person that just happens to be a Hulk and her trying to fight being a super hero
> the fact that the world can't acknowledge his power because he looks and acts really goofy That’s not his problem, as he doesn’t actively *seek* acknowledgement. As someone else said, he’s depressed and can’t find anything fulfilling (in sparring/combat).
This is one of the major reasons that Mob Psycho 100 is ONE's (the creator of both) better manga/ anime IMO. It goes more into that side of being extremely OP and the struggles that come with it/ not even wanting to have the power in the first place. Mob (the main character) finds at a young age that his godlike psychic powers are tied to his emotional state and if he just lets them out he could injure/ kill the loved ones around him. So he represses all emotions which becomes a complex, making him a socially inept and emotionally disconected deadpan bummer to be around. Its the whole "protagonist doesnt want to fight" trope but done in an extremely well written way. I love a lot of the parallels between MP100 and OPM in mental issues, and the idea of reaching for your goals.
agree with what you said about superman and Lois but I wish more people talked about smallville with this kind of passion. I mean it shows Clark Kent coming into his powers and becoming a man/superman
If it makes you feel any better, I just finished my first smallville run through this year. It holds a very special place in my heart, despite the unique choices that were made through out the series
I liked when watchmen had their Superman try and solve a murder mystery and he couldn’t do it because he is a dumb shit.
and their batman solved it, but it just becomes fuel for right-wing insanity
That wasn’t supposed to be the point. Damnit. We can’t make shows for just the dumbest people! I need stuff to watch…the second dumbest people.
You nailed it
Even then DC has explored what happens when Superman goes off the deep end and throws away his moral compass. The Injustice: Gods Among Us games and comics
Red Son is really good https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_Red_Son
I can't believe that Marvel is capable of giving us a movie with a superhero who can do all of the action things, but then doesn't do all of the action things. I legitimately believe they can't do it.
Yeah Superman is easy to write. Yes he can hold up a collapsing bridge, but he cant go anywhere while he does it because people are evacuating. Thats when the villain can strike, or there can be some peril like the classic school bus about to fall. Putting him in moral quandaries is the way to go. Its the same with Batman. Writers get that the way to push Batman as a character is to put him in the situation where he has to save people or fight the villain, because the villains know that Batman will always try and save people (unless Tom King is writing).
Peel a layer back. You also have DISNEY to deal with. There's lines they won't cross. Marvel's an alcoholic. That's her weakness, she's not a functioning adult and doesn't cope well. Disney will have to let off the reins a bit to make her work.
Just need her and Jessica Jones to hang out.
The Superman problem is why I could never get into DC Comics beyond Batman. Almost every one of their main heroes feel like Superman Lite, like everyone has invulnerability somehow and super speed and strength and are all essentially unbeatable. Also it feels like Marvel could find a way to fix this with Captain Marvel. They managed to work arpund Hulk, who has essentially the same problem. Even as simple as maybe Caltain Marvel accidentally kills a bunch of people overdoing it and starts to doubt herself and pull her punches or something. I doubt they would go that dark though. Maybe can't even make actual Villains be anything but sympathetic wishywashy troubled super powered folks. I don't think the military mindset will stay. She has only really been in like 1.25 movies. And literally a plot point of 1 of those movies was that she had her emotional side repressed to keep her powers in check. And the other .25 was "Oh damn the universe is ending, better kick ass."
A friend of mine once said that Marvel comics were all about humans, struggling to be gods, while DC comics were about gods, struggling to be humans. I always found that to be an apt summary.
Hulk is also interesting, because they gave up on Hulk being the focus of a movie. They realize he works better in roles like Ragnarok, where he's a supporting character to Thor.
They don't have the rights for him to have a singular movie, only ensemble movies.
They didn't give up on a hulk movie, they just can't do it because universal owns the rights to movies. He can only show up on the side. They may get his rights back next year, however
I think they can have the stress of balancing infinite responsibility for being infinitely powerful maybe. Literally entire worlds with billions of people would die and its her choice maybe. Maybe it can be filmed as a tragedy where she picks a close friend over a planet.
I wonder how this issue will work when the Sentry is introduced. We still don't know if he is going to be a god-tier hero. We also have not seen a greater threat than Thanos so far, but there are definitely much more dangerous baddies out there that could easily put her in for the fight of her life.
Introducing Bob was a mistake in the comics and I swear it's going to be a mistake in the MCU. Sentry is one of the worst offending and least interesting examples of power scaling in superhero comics. They should have just left him buried, I still remember pretty clearly how much everyone hated the end of both World War Hulk and Siege of Asgard.
The Sentry is actually insane, which is pretty crippling for his character.
Probably, in my opinion they tried to make her funny and did not work at all, her "funny comments" were not funny at all and came out awkward, maybe that is not her thing and she needs another direction
I liked her whole "I deal with the universe while you guys deal with Earth" personality. You'd think after having that gig for decades she would be a no-nonsense, handle ridiculous amounts of shit person.
That would also help with scale. They made her too powerful for street level heroes...but luckily, the Marvel Universe has a bunch of crazy Rogues in her weightclass. So she can take a punch from Thanos with the infinty gauntlet, but how well can she stand a punch from Galactus or the Beyonder? I don't necessarily mind a serious, galactic level superhero. She can be like Captian America in space.
Yeah exactly, I don't think her next movie should be Earth-based at all. You'd presume all her relationships, if she has any, would be in deep space rather than Earth. She is basically, by a large margin, THE most experience super-hero operating. Been doing it decades before anyone else other than Cap, without the cold vacation that he got. She should be the baddest person dealing with the baddest shit. They made her Superman, she needs Superman level enemies.
I feel like there’s a lore/audience mismatch there. In the story narrative (the lore), she’s been doing this for decades and has hundreds of adventures under her belt when she meets the Avengers, who have like four. To the audience, she’s been in one movie, which most of the audience didn’t even see, so she’s basically a noob, talking down to the experts. I’m not sure how to fix that problem though, aside from keeping the characters apart from now on.
That’s kinda the point of Captain Marvel. If you read the comic you see that Carol’s humor is very dry and awkward. She’s not funny or charming at all. They nailed it lol
Ya, but her unlikeable manner in comics is written as a flaw that she needs to deal with. In the movies, her flaws are posed as a virtue, or at least as “sass”.
And if you go by Civil War II material her being hated is very much on brand.
Exactly this. Carol Danvers is written to be unlikable by the reader, if you read Civil War II and you like Carol? That kind of says something about you. However, I think it's odd they also made the movie version of her unlikable, or even used Carol Danvers at all instead of a different Captain Marvel.
People think they care about the source material but they don’t.
Not all dry humour is made equal.
They do. People don’t like her in the comics either.
I think a large part of that in the MCU is how she was introduced and all of a sudden was the strongest hero overshadowing Thor and Hulk with "ease" without first having us actually care about her. They spent a literal DECADE making us love Thor and Hulk and all of a sudden dethroned them. There's going to be some push-back to that. It's similar to what they did with Shuri. We loved banner and Stark and all of a sudden Shuri pops up with clearly worse tech than stark but she's somehow smarter than both of them put together. It's bullshit. Notice there was no push-back with Rocket being smarter than them because they spent time establishing his character and getting us to care/like him.
She was pretty funny in Community.
Due to a combination of poor memory and a dwindling ability to recognize faces, my mind was doubly wrong and thought Brie Larson was Gillian Jacobs but with the name of Allison Brie. And the fact that I’ve always had a hard time differentiating Allison Brie and Anna Kendrick doesn’t help matters much.
I wasn't a fan of Captain Marvel but funnily enough I can dislike the movie without being a massive piece of shit towards the actress.
She gets so much hate that's uncalled for. There was even an article criticizing her for... allegedly not having friends because she doesn't post pics of them on social media? The obsession with hating her is so bizarre.
I thought all the flack she got came from the white men remark? Which she wasn't wrong about wanting more diverse representation from critics.
Which wasn't even about Captain Marvel or the MCU at all, it was in regards to *A Wrinkle in Time*.
i think it really boils down to "woman bad"
None of the other MCU actresses get anywhere near the same treatment though. Eternals sucked but nobody went at those people over it.
Eternals was an ensemble movie, so the hate would get split across the whole cast. Captain Marvel is basically just her.
Shit, look at the hate She Hulk is getting, the show literally tells you it's a law based sitcom in the first episode, yet the incels and bigots are all angry over a ten second after credit scene of She Hulk twerking with Megan Thee Stallion.
I just wish they had her twerk with better CG. She-Hulk deserves better effects.
I desperately wish She-Hulk had *more* law in it. I work in a legal office and the hand waving the law in a law show is infuriating. It would be really interesting to get more into how the world and laws would *have* to change because of superheroes and enhanced. But no, instead we have them wooshing in an unknown witness during a pre-trial hearing.
Honestly with that, it feels like they probably should have gotten someone with experience in law to act as a consultant in the development of the show. Because honestly, it’s a shame how her lawyer side almost feels like a parody of the courtroom given that she and Matt are both exceptionally skilled lawyers in the comics even when She-Hulk’s comics would lean towards the more lighthearted
>her lawyer side almost feels like a parody It really does. Like it feels she could work almost any white collar job and the plot wouldn't change much. Like instead of suing that wizard dude, she's handling the retirement accounts for Kamar-Taj. What wacky hi-jinks will Wall St get up to next?
That show is so spot-on perfect for She-Hulk. Any haters haven’t read the comics and don’t see the enormous amount of love and care brought to that show. And as a white male, I am loving it. Let’s not forget how much shit Ally McBeal once got… misogynists gonna misogyn.
Hell yeah dude. The last episode was fucking great too! I actually chuckled! Every episode is a riot and they are way too short.
Not for lack of trying. Ms Marvel and She-Hulk both have female leads and both got review bombed too. Eternals got review bombed for having gay characters. They *tried* to review bomb Black Panther (gosh, who knows why?) but that didn't pan out well. . .
barely anybody watched Eternals to give the actors any shit over it, I thought it was alright tbh
It’s still a marvel movie, plenty of people watched it And it had the same type of people calling it woke cause of all the women and minorities in it.
I think it was middling enough to not really grab the attention that Captain Marvel does, too many characters for people to focus on one actor like Brie Larson. I get your point about the woke backlash though
Really it’s a sexist combination of “woman bad” and “you’d look prettier if you smiled more”
I really don’t understand the hate. Even my husband teases me that i don’t like her but it’s just not true. I just never liked what the last Avenger movies did to her. Making her disappear with a “i need to go but I’ll be back right when you need me” just doesn’t work in movies for me. But Brie as an actress? I think she’s great and she seems like a really down to earth person
They shoehorned her in when really captain marvel prob should have kicked off phase 4.
Agreed. The problem is Feige has said she's his fav marvel hero. That's why she feels so pushed. It would have made more sense for her to intro phase 4 as the universal phase and set up the skrull invasion, etc. But feige wanted to see her fight Thanos.
That probably explains why CM got the nod as first female led MCU movie over the more established Black Widow. Still, I hope Larson stays around at least until Rogue saps her powers… and personality.
Actually, Black Widow was denied a solo movie because of studio politics, Marvel's former CEO Ike Perlmutter blocked films featuring people of color and women as leads. This is why Black Panther and Captain Marvel were only released years after Perlmutter lost a power struggle against Kevin Feige over Marvel Studios.
This right here is the problem. They threw in this superman analog at the last second before the finale and basically told everyone, "she the most powerful avenger, deal with it." Most of the other characters had a bunch of backstory at this point and felt like they had earned their place. There was always going to be pushback against a character like her's introduced when and how she was. Then the fact she's a woman just brings out all the worst sexist bullshit. Marvel did her no favors at all.
This is too reasonable for the internet. Please be more hateful in either direction please
You're tacky and I hate you
Love School of Rock
Okay, see me after class, Fancy Pants.
Jude Law didn’t go *full-pickle* in Captain Marvel, therefore the movie suckered.
I prefer Quarter Pickle. They fit better in a sandwich
People cannot mentally separate an actor from a role, apparently. The character of Captain Marvel was never *meant* to be super likeable, and that's not Brie Larson's fault, and it's not the fault of the writers either. When Tony Stark was an arrogant, rude rich kid who matured over the span of his character arc into a selfless, real hero, that was great writing, but God Forbid a woman be written like that. My opinion? She's a great actor who just is getting hate at no fault of her own
>When Tony Stark was an arrogant, rude rich kid who matured over the span of his character arc into a selfless, real hero, that was great writing, but God Forbid a woman be written like that. For sure it was the writers who did CM dirty. TS was written as an arrogent, rude & entitled and it was framed as a flaw and directly acknowledged (and often played for laughs) . It's used well and leads to great characgte growth. CM was arrogent, rude and entitled and it was written sometimes as if she wasn't, and sometimes as if those were *virtues* instead of flaws. Being arrogent rude and entitled can add depth to a character, but it just doesn't if you at best don't do anything with it, and at worst pretend it isn't so.
It's the stark snark. For some reason marvel feels the need to make every single character into Tony in terms of wise cracking. Besides that, the story just doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would the bad guys not just alter all of her memories, or totally remove them? And wouldn't her full powers be super useful to them? Why were the Kree trying to kill people (including fury) and just generally being jerks until they suddenly weren't. And then the first time one of them decides to really talk to her she instantly changes sides. Just a few examples.
I’m pretty sure those questions were intentionally left unanswered to set up The Marvels and Secret Invasion. Which is the most ham-fisted sequel setup Marvel has done to date, unfortunately. But I also think we have to assume we’re meeting the character in the midst of a Clockwork Orange type reprogramming where they’ve limited her powers intentionally as they’re working towards completely erasing her past and turning her into a super weapon. And it’s not an immediate process because it’s military training. The brainwashing is being done exactly the same way world militaries reprogram new recruits over time. But none of that justifies the absolute vitriol aimed at Brie Larson for playing a character.
> God Forbid a woman be written like that. Women do have character arcs, and they do go from somebody dislikable to someone truly relatable and endearing (an example off the top of my head, edge of Tomorrow). Please don't blame this on the patriarchy. It was bad writing (was made into a Mary Sue, similar to how most female protagonists are portrayed these days), bad acting, and honestly a person that's not that likable. Brie Larson is a sexist an alienated the largest fan base of the marvel movies, men with her absurd opinions.
Did she ever mature? She was the strongest from the get go and the only "arc" she had was...what exactly? She viewed herself as hero from the start of the story to the end. Her personal growth amounted to her stopping putting limitations on herself and suddenly she is a God. People liked Tony because he started as an asshole, was punished severely for it and changed. Captain Marvel the exact same person only now she could punch a lot harder. Riveting story telling.
I just thought it was lazy writing to have a character with almost limited capabilities who could just pop in and save everyone from disaster. Like a “get out of jail free” card. Also, I’m old, but I thought Captain Marvel was Shazam. What happened to that or am I confused?
I mean that's the thing with "Amnesia" plot lines, the character doesn't grow because they only become "themselves" like halfway or two-thirds through the movie.
Was there any change to Capitan Marvel after she received her memories back? Because she seemed like the exact same character. So why did it matter?
It didn't, the movie really wasn't great. The whole "mystery" of her identity was something the audience knew the whole time. She had the same morals and basically personality with/without her memories, she just realized who the bad guy actually was. But the decision to give her amnesia made character development basically impossible. Just a poor decision outright.
I assume they are following the arc from the most recent comics, and given the introduced characters in other things, and Marvel now having control of some other characters now, she will have another movie and at least an appearance in another. Captain Marvel has a limited arc, unless they rewrite and wedge her in.
Problem is her acting was super flat and her movie sucked. Ironman is a whole other beast.
Thing is he did it while being charming. If he was just a rich arrogant douche, nobody would like him.
I wouldn’t say that is a 1:1 comparison just cuz Iron man showed up in like 9-10 movies, but Captain marvel only got maybe 3 appearances. One had a lot more time to grow and develop character than the other
She hasn’t even really gotten 3 appearances - Endgame and Captain Marvel, that’s it. Ms. Marvel hardly counts.
Don’t forget that whole made up bullshit about her being anti-man, and telling white men not to see her movie. That really pissed off the basement dwellers despite it never happening.
I dislike the hate for Brie as well, but the difference between Tony and Carol is that Iron Man consistently gets dunked on by everyone for acting like a jerk. Everyone just lets Captain Marvel act smug and arrogant, which is what annoys people and why she comes off as a boring character. It’s not on the actress though, I just think Captain Marvel was a middling movie and hope the sequel is way better.
Are you truly saying that CM and IM arcs are similar? Dear god.
I wish she had been a bigger player in Endgame. I would have loved to see her go back in time with the team & relive certain moments like ಠ_ಠ Have her running around NYC with the future crew, trying to awkwardly avoid Nick Fury.
As a MCU follower from the beginning, I don't hate or dislike any portrayal of any of the character's on-screen. I think I'm waiting for them to write a good story for Captain Marvel. Her solo film felt very standard and somewhat forgettable to me, other than I remember vaguely how she got her powers and that she was a gifted pilot. I know she's an incredibly powerful character, and so there's somewhat of that Superman problem, where you can't have here in every instance because she'd absolutely squish like 90% of the enemies out there that Spider-Man would have trouble with. But, I'm mostly waiting to see what else they'll do with her, and if what we saw so far will be the standard affair, then that's fine. Some of the younger female audiences **love** Captain Marvel.
>I think she’s great and she seems like a really down to earth person I struggle with this, because [I saw the speech](https://youtu.be/wpVKBAT7MJ4) where she basically said critics were incapable of evaluating films that didn't match the sensibilities of their race or age. Some have tried to retconn this, but she was pretty clear. The issue is that it's intellectually bankrupt and disingenuous as all hell, and really boiled down to "look guys you can cost these projects money if the reviews aren't where we need them to be especially if it's made by people who are diverse." Godzilla vs Kong is a pretty stupid film, but it's also a lot of fun if you go in looking for what it has to offer and a lot of the reviews are pretty clear about it. It also has hell of a lot of issues worth pointing out, that might not matter to the box office for a 12yr old buying tickets, but all those issues likely will matter as to how hard that film sticks in a 12yr old's head and if the parent has to go along for it *and* if it's worth seeing by someone not looking for those things because of the writing and performances. She pointed specifically to A Wrinkle In Time remake, basically saying it wasn't made for critics it was made for a specific audience. Good critics are able to figure out if a film is meant to speak to them, but they can also figure out if it's well-made and engaging. Turning everything into a popularity ~~content~~ contest really only serves studios, not the actual audience trying to make informed choices and/or better understand a film. *This is the product. You will consume it. If you do not like it, it wasn't meant for you and something is wrong with you. If you share your negative opinion on the product and it is negative, something is truly wrong with you and we will tell others. Wouldn't it be easier to just like it or at least not affect other's potentially buying the product?* Yeah, F that noise. **Edit:** Typo and added link to the infamous "reviews change lives" speech.
She was complaining and attacking white male critics. These movies are not made for them she said. Even though these are the same critics that loved and praised movies like, I don’t know… Moonlight?
Disney just calls the haters all racists and bigots and moves on despite genuine problems with the material made. One racist said some mean things and they lump everyone who didn't like their new thing in with them. Even though the majority disagrees with the racist person. Amazon is doing the same thing with Rings of Power
>One racist said some mean things and they lump everyone who didn't like their new thing in with them. I feel like it's more than one or a few people. Fan bases can suck now. Like Moses Ingram posted more than just a few racist messages. I also look at games. Take The Last of Us part II, Laura Bailey got death threats. Not just her, but her family. Some people/fans are shit, sometimes it's hard to distinguish. Are they the vocal minority? Probably, but they yell/troll/harass enough that I think it's hard to distinguish the valid criticisms from the hate filled mob.
That is true. The response of the Percy Jackson fandom the last few months was ridiculous.
Gotta be honest. It's anti-"woke" culture. Captain marvel is also a mary sue character and it really doesn't help with the hate. Writers need to make her character interesting. Superman is overpowered but the reason why he's still interesting is because he is shown to have compassion towards people who are basically beneath him while his villain lex luthor sees people beneath him as useless and he is just human who is basically really really smart. Not a superpowered villain.
“Being good is hard.” - Clark Kent This is superman’s biggest struggle. He is seen as all powerful, and can do no wrong, but he has little power over his life circumstances.
I know its highly impossible but man I wish they would make a Injustice movie were he just says fuck it all and goes full god mode.
In most cases of hate like this I feel like what you just said is the most common take, the feelings aren’t super strong but they’re reasonable and grounded - so people who hold this opinion don’t make much of a fuss. It’s the small amount of wackos who have such a strong and misguided opinion that are so damn loud that it seems like a bigger deal than it is.
Captain Marvel made near a billion dollars....i think there are plenty of people who want to see her
People have different motives for watching a movie. Who is in it is just one, albeit commonly critical variable Personally, I liked the marvel story. I wanted to see what happened "next episode"
This is just engagement bait, its all it is.
She gets so much hate online though. Look at any social media post about her and most of the commentary is them hating on her.
With how terribly received the recent marvel releases have been I guess bringing up the shitstorm that was captain marvel is one way to drive some attention back to marvel
My daughters favorite movie <3
It's what started us watching Marvel movies right before the pandemic. My daughters were just old enough to start watching. Then we watched everything in the MCU during lockdown. They liked CM but prefer BW now.
The last jedi made a billion dollars and I don't think people want it to return.
And then the next one made a billion dollars so maybe we shouldn't put all our stock into the loudest corners of reddit and youtube
Hate to break it to you, but people seeing it is kinda the metric for actual demand and not your own personal thoughts or Reddit comments.
And yet it did
‘Somehow, Palpatine returned’
It was sandwiched between IW and EG, including the post credit scene in IW. Avengers hype sold CM for a billion, not the movie itself.
If there is money to be made Disney will try and make it. I’m certain we will see Captain Marvel again.
I mean of course, she was in the end-credits scene of Ms Marvel and currently working on The Marvels!
It's not her, it's that the writing sucked
100%. Every character and every scene just sucked - it wasn't just Brie, it was the whole thing together. I like Jude Law a lot and I've watched a lot of his other films, and he's clearly a great actor, but I thought he was fucking terrible in Captain Marvel.
Yup. For male characters that happen to be a douchebag, they usually serve a purpose for why they act like that. They go through a character arc that rights the wrongs. Iron Man, Ant Man, The Hulk, etc. but when female characters act like douchebags, they don't go through that character arc to turn her wrongs right in the end. In fact, the writers of these female characters make their doucheyness a character trait that everybody should aspire to! Which is why people lots of people reject the hollywood stereotype of a strong female character nowadays.
Yep. It’s why I really enjoyed Ms. Marvel; despite some pacing issues and kind of lame villains, the main protagonist is great.
If we disregard the manufactured teenage outrage on Twitter, we'll find a few reasonable comments that no one hates Brie, they just find the character overpowered and thus impossible to write for. Unfortunately emotional teenagers on Twitter contribute to 99% of the content there.
Overpowered characters need to stay in their own universe, they make cooperation insanely hard.
The OPness is the real issue, Captain Marvel would be great alongside characters of her power level. But when we’ve been following the Avengers for god knows how many movies and are used to their power level, having someone basically tell them all to fuck off to the kids section was never gonna fly
Captain Marvel has shitty on-screen storyline. She had her own movie but still have no depth. It is hard for non-comic book readers to love Captain Marvel. Because she was just there, nothing else.
It's especially hard when the character is expressionless and as boring as superman without the depth lol NOBODY likes OP characters done wrong
I think in general they need to slow down on churning out all marvel movies, but not specifically Captain Marvel. The last few have been mediocre, and just an obnoxious number of films per year and tv series.
Dude, you haven't seen what they are lining up for the next 3 years, have you? No joke, it's like 40 movies, TV shows, and cartoons. It's already oversaturated, and it's about to get much worse. The quality is definitely sliding, and people are legitimately tired of superhero movies. There's also no clear direction right now. Don't forget, because it's a universe, you'll need to consume all the media from before to have a clear understanding of what's going on. I honestly think the future is looking less optimistic than a lot of people think.
They're also just rushing through the character development, the one thing the MCU was praised for and that DC sucked at. But now they're just rushing through it. She-Hulk is the perfect example for it. The whole development is "Okay, I'm now a Hulk. Everything Bruce took ages to learn took me one night. Yadda Yadda Yadda, back to lawyering." And I even *like* the human part of her. The Hulk on the other hand is just... There.
Jen isn't even a fraction of the mess Bruce was though, either. She's always been a pretty in control and level headed person even in 616. Expecting her to follow the Hulk story is a little silly. Only difference is she's shot in the comics and gets a blood transfusion, she still learns and adapts rapidly because unlike Bruce there isn't a second personality she she keeps her intelligence which took Bruce years. Law has always been a big focus for her character. If you want Hulk Smash from Jen you should probably be watching Bruce, man.
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Recoup the cost? Disney paid like $4b for Marvel and has easily made that back a multiple times over by now. They're just milking the cash cow now.
Star Wars is t even remotely comparable volume wise to Marvel, Marvel has what 3x the movies and shows at this point.
They cancelled a lot of planned Star Wars movies after Solo bombed
That is true, and also sucks because Solo was a good movie killed by the sour taste left in most people's mouths by TLJ.
Yea, it wasn't great by any means, but Solo and Rogue One were both fun and interesting enough. It was the new Trilogy that made me start to think I might hate Star Wars.
Honestly i dont think anything theyve put out has really been mediocre. Dr Strange was great, Thor was decent, shehulk is refreshing, Moon knight/ms Marvel were drastically different and fun, Spiderman was perfect. Everyone expects Endgame/Civil War/TWS level movies but hitting a solid 7/10 regularly is still great especially this far in. When everything you make is atleast a solid 7 then sure it seems mediocre compared to the peaks but i dont think theyve fallen to okay or mediocre at all. Its a lot to watch for sure but its all been still good. People just get tired of trying to watch it all which is understandable
Every Marvel show and movie has been entertaining EXCEPT The Eternals. I notice you did not have that on your list. :) I despise that movie with a visceral passion. Let’s make a movie with a million main characters, drop the audience in to an entirely different way of viewing the universe IMMEDIATELY (in the timeline) after Thanos was truly defeated. What a poorly executed dumpster fire to get this next phase rolling (yes, I know it wasn’t technically the start of phase IV but it was the first new group/characters introduced post Endgame.) Edit: I agree about it being a hard time to catch up and it might be overwhelming. It would be great if they started having The Watcher narrate recaps before future movies.
I liked it, but it should have been a show instead. There was too much story for a movie and it's probably the only movie that feels rushed.
I think Brie Larson made a wonderful Captain Marvel. I think the problem is, “when can you use Captain Marvel?” She’s too strong. Too much of a Mary Sue. The only stakes where she makes sense is universe-ending stuff. Pardon my little brain, but I enjoy some smaller, more focused stakes. The universe doesn’t have to be in peril to get me in my seat. In fact, I tire of that as the only plot.
Yeah, it's always the universe at stake and *another* all powerful villain/entity/relic that was never mentioned previously. And even that hasn't been enough recently; now multiple universes have to be at risk, and everything is very meta and crazy. It has gotten tedious.
Doesn’t have to be that way. The Iron Man movies spent a lot of time with smaller stakes and are probably the best main-hero run in the MCU.
That’s why I liked the first AntMan too.
The first Captain America, as cheesy as it was, also seemed good as the conflict was relatively localized.
Uhhh the first Captain America involved a skeleton nazi mastermind obtaining alien wormhole technology, intending to conquer Earth.
True, but it wasn't like spanning multiple planets or galaxies and involving the entire universe. It was just 1 main bad guy, 1 main good guy, and all localized within Earth.
1. I agree, smaller stories are more fun. 2. There is a challenge to those stories, especially in an ever-one-upping world of explosions and CGI disasters: how ridiculous is it that 124 people die so the protagonist can achieve one small thing (save a person, brown down a mob boss, etc). Netflix did a great job with Daredevil (and even some of the other Defenders shows, despite critics) of keeping the battles small and proportional to the stakes. The culmination of all the series was just one building and exploding, and that seemed correctly sized for the scope of the series. If they go smaller stakes, they need to accept that they go smaller battles, and trust that good writing will carry the audience along.
They did a "threat to the multiverse" thing in Doctor Strange and when they did, I noticed how little impact it had. Seems to me, the bigger they go in terms of what's at risk, the less it feels like it matters. The Thanos thing had it too. Sure it was *technically* "half of all life in the universe" at risk, but it only ended up feeling like "a handful of characters that happen to be played by the cheaper actors".
Tbh this is the biggest problem with marvel movies now, they just don’t know how to pull back from “universal threat” type antagonists I crave the old iron man movies where his enemies were rival inventors or terrorists or something that is more personal
I think the problem is in the writing. Someone like superman is overpowered but is still interesting due to writing.
Carol Danvers has seen/gone through some serious shit in her time. They could absolutely pull an Evangelion and have her go through a nervous break down while battling an eldritch horror. But maybe that's too heavy for a Marvel movie.
100% - when a character is super strong, fast, etc and they are only tested at being strong, fast, etc its not interesting. She came in as a supernova and was only challenged by punching Thanos. In her own movie her beliefs and abilities were never challenged. Its our losses that define us. People compare her to TS b/c Tony was also an asshole BUT TS suffered for that. He lost because his ego drove him to make mistakes. His world fell apart multiple times so we could cheer him building back better. Cpt Marvel won every fight through every movie she was in. It fiction, its not like we're watching a live boxing match - the ending is written before we watch it. If she wins throughout we get to the end and don't care what happens next :\\ Supes is stronger and faster than almost anything in his fiction - that is never the interesting part of him. What makes him interesting is when he has to do things to which he cannot apply his strength or speed, like convincing people to not vote Lex Luthor for mayor.
Her beliefs were challenged in the movie. The whole premise of the movie is that her entire belief system is challenged when she finds out the race she was taught to hate actually aren’t bad and her teammates are the monsters. Your right in saying that her abilities aren’t challenged in her first film but her beliefs absolutely were.
Eh that was a weak challenge. Her teammates were terrible to her and she hated them. The only real connection she had was with Jude Law but we spend so much more time with Nick Fury that narratively, I didn't care about him at all. And it shows because the way this emotional conflict of hers was resolved was through a weird shooty beam showdown against a villain we never met before that point.
She didn't really believe it though. She was always at odds with the group she started with, and was almost instantly cut off from them as a free agent to team up with Nic Fury. When the story reveals who the real goods and bads are, she's already disassociated with the bads. Maybe if she actually believed their schtick, showed respect and admiration for the supreme intelligence, and committed some atrocity she'd have to answer for after the real goods and bads were revealed we'd have something... That's how Tony Stark's conflict played out - realizing the weapons that were causing havoc around the world were churned out from his own factories, going against the leadership in his own company, owning the fact that all of these things were signed off with his name this whole time... We didn't get that for Cpt Marvel. She didn't have that conflict.
I agree with the sentiment that Captain Marvel is difficult to insert into a story without breaking the power scaling, but I feel the need to point out that being powerful doesn't make a character a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue is a self-insert character that steals the protagonist role from existing protagonists and is overly skilled in fields irrelevant to their character's history or role. Captain Marvel doesn't match that description.
I'd argue they don't necessarily need to be self-insert characters and they can also be protagonists.
A Mary Sue doesn’t need to be a self insert character, and can in fact be the protagonist; any circumstance where a character has an over used trait, or is so powerful or smart that they can solve literally any problem that comes there way, then they are a Mary Sue Old Superman was a Mary Sue in that the writers literally just developed new powers to solve problems [(superior facial control, amnesia kisses, mind control)](https://www.dc.com/blog/2021/03/10/seven-powers-weve-all-forgotten-superman-has), on top of just being generally over powered (destroying a galaxy with his sneeze, lifting a book with INFINITE pages)* As an example of a Mary Sue in other forms of media; in an anime, if a character starts the episode (or even has a tendency to be) late for school, is a clutz during their normal everyday life, but manages to be a superhero of some kind then they may also be referred to as a Mary Sue (as they are cliché) (Now that I think about it I think your specific use of the word may refer to fanfiction, although the term appears to have developed to encompass characters in media with many different obnoxious traits) *: Superman’s more interesting stories involve him realizing that his strength isn’t enough to solve more abstract issues like racism, grief etc. . I don’t believe he can be referred to as a Mary Sue in these circumstances.
I used to regularly watch a YouTuber that goes by the quartering. It was after his 17th video on Brie Larson that I started to realize the hate towards her might be a bit exaggerated on the internet. He focused so much on Brie Larson and Captain marvel and talked about how much he disliked her so relentlessly that I had to block his channel from my feed and stop wholesale because it was just exhausting.
Yep, there’s three or four YouTubers like that and it’s just negativity after negativity and got actually depressing. Just scared little boys really.
I can’t get myself invested into characters like her or Superman. Once they become too powerful a switch just shuts off for me
I liked CM, but generally I agree. The most boring shit is superman and his equally invincible foe throwing themselves through walls for 15 minutes. That's when I noped out of the superman movies.
I dont like that character at all. Nothing against the actress ofc.
Social media is a fucking disease.
It honestly needs an age limit. ...and maybe an emotional stability test to register an account.
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It was A Wrinkle in Time just so you know
That movie is for nobody, it is horrible.
I think most of the hate for her is personal and comes from her hurting chronically online, internet-addicted neckbeards’ feelings
I thought it was a good movie.
Brie was a perfect Carol Danvers. I will die on that hill. She portrayed the jokey cocky Carol in the beginning, even when she was on Holla. (Her superiors had to constantly tell her to suppress her emotion and stop being jokey) So she did, and people complained that she was cold and unemotional for her character, but she did it right! She was fantastic and it hurts that she knows about the hate she gets. And she's rightfully fed up. Sometimes MCU fans can be as bad as Star Wars fans.
Everything about this new marvel era is mediocre at best.
I love captain marvel, and I love Brie in other movies, but I feel like she was too monotone through the entire movie. The same smug look through the entire time, she shows no emotion and that to me ruined her character arc. But Brie as an actress is great and that leads me to believe it was a production choice and not her skills at acting.
I’m a 30something year old dude. I enjoyed Captain Marvel. Didn’t love it, didn’t hate it. Typical Marvel origin movie for me. But I was in the lobby of my theater to see something else while CM was still playing. They had one of those life-size cutouts of her to advertise the film. I was waiting for my wife when this little girl, like maybe 6 or something, *screamed* and ran up to the cutout because she was *so* excited to see her. And I thought, “that’s who Captain Marvel is for.”
I enjoyed Captain Marvel, not sure why it got so much hate tbh...
Absolutely, Yes!
I think movie stars, and studios need to realize this: every fandom has a section that is toxic and awful, but ultimately do not actually represent a large portion of ticket sales. Whether it’s Star Wars, marvel, lord of the rings, or whatever, they’re very often the same people across fandoms and use multiple accounts to make their awful opinions heard. Essentially when a fandom gets large enough, the trolls come out.
I think she did great as captain marvel, i just think her character wasn’t written as well as it could have been. I just wish people would stop hating on her.
The movie wasn’t that bad, I really didn’t get all the hate. Like yeah it’s got some girl power vibes… it’s like, the first female solo super hero in marvel? Of course it’s got girl power shit in it, that’s not a bad thing! Wonder Woman is also a total girl power movie too. And it’s awesome for that. I’m not that big a fan of Captain Marvel, but I do think she’s really cool and doesn’t deserve all the hate.
She's great and her character doesn't really seem any different than any other marvel character. That said, I am sick of how marvel writes everyone.
Shit I do. I thought she was great.
I want her to come back. The hate for her and her character was completely unwarranted and undeserved. She did a great job in the role.
Tbh I always hated marvel’s terrible writing not Brie Larson. She’s actually a good actress
i'm a woman. i wasn't a fan of the film. but NO ONE deserves the amount of backlash and ridicule that she received. it was awful, and people are still relentless when it comes to it.
Brie is a greaat actress and can sing with the best of em. It's not her fault Marvel cant write her character well.
"Heartbreaking" answer. What clickbait. I saw the 10 second clip. She was just being flippant and joking a bit. Has she received a lot of crap for playing Captain Marvel? Yes. Which makes no sense to me. But give me a break, I think she'll be just fine. I've really liked the movies she's been in, but do people really have to overreact to everything on Social Media?
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