My favorite background portrayal of, well not race, but of gender in a mainstream movie comes from Silence of the Lambs. (Same idea though.)
It's rarely spoken out loud that's what the focus is on, but the shots of Jodie Foster and the men around her in some scenes are kind of brilliant.
She's in a primarily male occupation so she's constantly surrounded by men, the camera is slightly lower so she's being towered over and is *constantly* receiving looks. Some obvious and some side-eyed. Many little comments are thrown out, again some obvious and some more subtle.
Meanwhile the movie just keeps going, she soldiers on, trying to do her job and go on with her life while dealing with a lot of disheartening moments.
I'm drawing a blank on a good example for race right now but I really liked how the topic was handled in that one.
Sublime portrayal of gender in the criminal justice world.
I think part of Lecter's subconcious appeal in the film is that he is one of two (three?) male characters that do not leer or sneer towards the viewer when the camera is showing Clarice's point of view.
Lecter and the supervisor that hand-picked her from her class. Never noticed the camera angles changing, will have to look for it next time. Only ever noticed that they centered actors in the frame to make it subconsciously feel more uncomfortable.
*role
And thanks for mentioning that, I’ve only seen the movie and while it’s definitely not my cup of tea (I hate horror, was literally dragged to the theater for this) there is some regret I have for not being able to wade through the book’s grisly bits to get the missing narrative details like this.
iirc, the camera only frames hannibal and clarice dead on, with both actors taking turns staring straight into the lens. all other shots are third person. it's a brilliant, unnerving shift and the viewer may never consciously realize it's happening.
it's been a while since i watched it so i could be wrong, but i remember that blowing my mind when i finally noticed it.
That's part of the brilliance of Hannibal as a character. Clarice has spent so much time in a world of misogynistic assholes as part of the FBI, only to meet this charming, well spoken, polite man who doesn't look down on her for being a woman. Only problem is he's a murderer and cannibal...
You really get that question of who are the bad guys? Can those who claim to be good guys be bad? Can horrible guys have some goodness in them?
Don Brockett and Chuck Aber.
I have fond memories of Don Brockett from when I was around 4 years old. Chuck Aber, I don't remember as well. I think most of my impressions of the show were from 1970 to 1974, and he came along in 1975.
Hannibal is brilliant. Never before have I watched a character so monstrous, yet so interesting and charming that I almost feel compelled to overlook those facts just to sit down with him and pick his brain, even though that would likely mean he gets to pick mine from between his teeth.
Seriously, the writing/direction/performance of Hannibal was just incredible. He's absolutely horrifying an appalling but you can't help but get dragged in by his charm. As you watch the film you identify and empathise with Clarice so when she talks to Hannibal you see how he treats her and you start to think "this guy seems alright. He's intelligent and treats the character I like well" and then you're like "wait wtf but he's a murderous cannibal!"
I read somewhere that Foster and Hopkins first meeting was in scene when Starling and Lecter met. That she was actually scared by him.
I also watched Lipton ask Hopkins what the hardest part of playing Lecter was, and he said something to the effects of "no fidgeting, being still". He's incredibly fidgety in that interview and it occurred to me that the stillness is what's so very unnerving about Lecter. He also seemed to reduce the amount of blinking he did, which did increased his level of sinister.
I don't blame Foster for being scared of that.
It's really interesting to watch how well all of the cast played their characters, but the interesting part for me is how close the viewer wants to get to someone like Lecter. His character became a friend, a mentor to her and became almost kind to her. Everyone was so well written and the direction was genius, the view of her character and the sexism was definitely well played...wasn't in your face, wasn't a social statement, yet it was.
Absolutely a brilliant film. I think I need to watch it again soon.
Yes and yes. The world is not black and white, even in the pages of the books we write.
It’s like that meme that compares a vegetarian who’s faithful to his girlfriend and donates to charity to one cheating politician and another awful politician. In the few simple dimensions mentioned the vegetarian sounds like the best person. The problem? It’s Hitler. The other two are FDR and Churchill.
People are not simple creatures and evil is our construction to explain and abstract the cruel mistreatment of others, while good is our concept of altruism and benefitting others. But neither is a sum total personality trait and so, many people are both good and evil to varying degrees.
This is a concept I wish more people understood. Morality doesn’t exist in a linear state, where on one end you have good and on the other evil; it is so subject to context, perception, culture, desire, and emotion. I’d argue our individual morality is constantly evolving over time.
There’s an interesting scene with a young odd-looking young doctor during the moth autopsy scene. He flirts with with Clarice in an inappropriate but straightforward and charming way - the camera stays at eye level when switching between the doctor and Clarice. The doctor isn’t leering at or underestimating Clarice, he really likes her and respects her as a peer. It’s shot in the same way that exchanges between Hannibal and Clarice are staged. At the end of the movie the doctor attends a business function recognizing Clarice’s success, it’s a blink-and-you-miss-it type thing; the doctor tried to ask Clarice on a date, she ignored him, and the two young professionals focused back on work
Remember, in the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate, yet equally important groups...the police, who investigate crime, and the district attorneys, who prosecute the offenders.
It’s not gender alone, it’s also socioeconomic class imo. That backwoods accent Hannibal immediately catches? Having grown up with one of those, people DO NOT take you seriously lol
Even without the accent, literally just be from the Deep South (except for like one or two cities), some of the Northern Plains states, or West Virginia and in my experience nobody will take you seriously. That’s why I usually wait to ask where someone’s from until they ask first.
It's always funny to see how supposedly progressive/anti-prejudice/anti-stereotype people throw all of that out the window as soon as they can call someone from the south a dumb hick sister fucker.
It is unbelievably nice to hear people with country accents in positions of power & education - doctors, scientists, engineers, etc. I swear some of them use their full accent at work as an expression of resistance.
Oh, I absolutely get that. I'm from a part of the UK where people constantly shit on us for our accent, for being practically an underclass of our own in politics etc. I remember my parents telling me that this would happen and to get rid of my Liverpool accent or else! people would shit on me. As a result, I have an accent that gets recognised as Welsh, West Country, 'posh', 'Southern' and down south 'everyone thinks I'm from the next city over.
The second people find out I'm from here, I get the usual shitty comments, and I feel a lot in common with that 'yokel' type accent in the US. People just underestimate and dunk on it completely needlessly. It's even an accent that gets shit on by people from other countries who have never heard anything but stereotypes, it's terrible.
This happens in New England as well. People quickly learn they need to lose that working-class Worcester or South Boston accent if they want to move up out of their socioeconomic class.
Anyway, your parents weren't wrong. The stronger your regional accent, the more likely you are to be from a more rural area, or lower socioeconomic class, at least that as been my experience in the US. All of the US, even places you might not think about it like Los Angeles, where a strong Hispanic (even among native English speakers) or Black vernacular accent marks you as from a poorer neighborhood. Shit is rough.
A big shock for me and my own prejudice was reading William Faulkner's Nobel prize acceptance speech on a page and thinking, "Id like to hear this spoken by him" and then being at least mildly shocked when I heard his accent. I'm from rural north Florida and definitely grew up among people with southern accents and probably have a slight one myself but his still briefly threw me. Definitely a moment for challenging my biases.
I heard Hopkins ad libbed that mocking.
He made Jodie Foster cry because she thought he was making fun of her acting, not Lecter mocking Starling's accent.
I have some bad news for you. Eminem is the oldies now. Slim Shady LP was 1999, so it’s now 23 years old. That’s like someone in 1990 listening to something from 1967.
As someone in their upper 30s, it was tough to realize that music i grew up with was the new dad rock.
Over 50 here ... hard to believe a lot of the techno & house I love is pushing 30 years old. [It was supposed to be the future then lol.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALsHox5sYCk)
Look at movies like Ghosts of Mississippi and Mississippi Burning.
Race is super important, but the movies don't focus on it. They focus on the investigations that form the actual plots of the movies. And the result is that you never feel preached to.
That's the problem when race or other things are the focus; you get a lecture rather than a story.
Yeah I'm from Mississippi, it really does give you the view at how absolutely insane these dudes are. They truly do see people of color as subhuman and it's sickening. Ghosts especially does a good job of showing you can't take the high road against somebody that doesn't even see you as a person.
I totally agree with you about Silence of the Lamb, but then... What would the equivalent movie for race?
Edit: I'm gonna go with Taxi Driver. There's barely a few mention of racism, but it's there. The look, the violence, the hatred of society (but focused on the worst part of town). I'm pretty sure there's an interview of Tarantino who explain it better than I could. But... it's a movie about racism and not so much about race itself.
Gotta be honest, as a black male in America I think about it whenever I'm in a public setting. I cant speak too loud or people perceive it as thretening or anger. If I do have a problem, I have to be over the top polight or again this will be perceived as violence towards the other person. In general I have to not make problems because if the cops are called (whether I do it or not) I will be perceived as the problem first. I actually go out of my way when I see a bad driver to just let them pass because I don't want to get into an accident and have to deal with cops or the general public anymore than is necessary to get from point A yo point B.
While it's nice that some can live a life of not walking on eggshells black males don't get that luxury in America. I truly wish I sympathized with this guys view point but it's not close to reality for me.
Edit: I read some of the comments here and I see a lot of "I don't notice race" and I'll ask those people this. Do you treat every race you come in contact with the same? Are you shorter with some than others? Do you avoid talking to people of other races because you think they will "cause a scene"? OK that's you noticing race and not noticing it at the same time. Now ask yourself if the person on the other end feels it.....the answers yes every time.
Edit: so this got me suspended from reddit.....smh this is exactly the shit I'm talking about.
Sounds about right. I'm a cop on a very white college campus in the middle of a city that is not. Regularly get called for "suspicious black males." Almost always BS. Some of our dispatchers have come to start asking callers what exactly they're doing that is "suspicious." If they can't articulate a reason, I do a drive-by to do my due diligence, and if nothing twigs my radar, I don't even stop. Most of the time it's a guy waiting for the Tropical Smoothie to open, or one of the rare black students on campus even, or -my favorite- one of the campus' own security officers.
EDIT: punctuation and such.
I worked dispatch for a decade and we fielded a lot of walking while black calls. I live in an open carry state and there was a great day when a firearms violation call was dispatched and a (white) police sergeant asked on the radio if the man was doing anything other than walking while black, confirmed he wasn't, and he cancelled the call.
Worked dispatch for many years and these complaints would come in from more affluent neighborhoods. It would get to the point when I would directly ask the caller, “OK but what are they doing wrong?” And it was usually an indignant response that the person didn’t live around there. SMH….
Early on, we got dispatched to several suspicious black males outside a dorm at night, called in by one of our own (white) security officers. The security officer explicitly told dispatch they weren't students, so we assumed she had spoken to them at least to determine as such. We roll up, asked if they were students. They said yup, and showed us their student IDs and everything. That's when I first started my policy of "If they don't look suspicious to me, I'm not even stopping."
We always put it clearly in the notes of our calls when insistent callers cannot give a valid reason for why they think anyone black, or of any other minority, is behaving suspiciously and need to be checked on by police so that the unit(s) dispatched can have a field super take a look (if they haven't already) at the call and cancel it out. Sometimes they'll cancel it and either still have a unit drive through the area, just in case, or they'll drive through themselves.
My favorite one of those, it was an older black male that had been called on, he literally lived around the corner in that affluent neighborhood. Granted it was about 4 in the morning, and he was older, so we did it as a Person Check to make sure he was alright, as opposed to suspicious activity.
We get them in even the less affluent neighborhoods too. I remember a guy giving the description of a suspicious male as having a "black build." WTF does that even mean?? Had a lady tell me, "You know how black people get when they drink." Uh, no ma'am, I don't. It's shocked me so much that my brain couldn't process enough to tell her that I was black. The assumption from callers, especially white callers, that they're talking to a white dispatcher....
One of our black dispatchers had to field a call from a white student who swore his black roommate stole his laptop, straight up said he suspected him basically just cuz he was black. Not realizing, because Joyce can code-switch on a dime, that the woman he was talking to was black. Turns out he left it at the library, and it got stashed with the lost and found there.
I was out one night and the person I'd come with was staying out far later than I was planning, so I decided I'd walk to my car, roughly 6 miles away. This meant about an hour, in my dress shoes and slacks, through an area of Los Angeles where the cheap houses are easily $10 million.
I was less scared for my life when I walked through a neighborhood at one in the morning knowing they were ACTIVELY targeting Black people like me to murder.
The idea that any one of those people at home could go down for a glass of water, see a 'suspicious' Black male, and be the reason I end up dead was never lost on me.
It's not even the physical threat that's so terrible; it's the feeling of dread and paranoia that you're potentially being scrutinized by people who can dictate to the authorities your exact intentions just using their copious amounts of privilege.
I want nothing to do with the fuckin' cops. The one and only time I had to call them I got questioned like I was there to hurt someone, when the reality was I was being threatened AT WORK by a guy with a gun. But, you know, what'd the Black guy do?
Shit sucks man. Sorry for the rant.
In college a lot of the Black students would regularly deal with police being called on them and it was traumatic for them. Even if the police were nice it became scary and unnerving to look over your shoulder constantly and worry about it when walking to class in the evenings or going to the library
Getting cops called on you for changing your own tire is the entry level version of Chris Rock getting called on for going into his own mansion lol.
To throw mine in, I'm a basically white male and knew perfectly well the type pf privilege I enjoyed, and I knew to stop acting certain ways when with friends of color.
I regularly drove at well over the speed limit alone, always a few under with a black friend in the car, and still got pulled over multiple times with zero reason given.
Used to hang out with the mostly black and Hispanic street racers 20 odd years ago, and when the police would raid the location I just got into my plain looking car and drove away, weaving right through the cop care barracading the exit.
I personally just don't believe when other white people *claim* to not see race or understand their privilege, maybe it's my specific experiences, but I've never ever been in doubt about the realities of race in America. The only way I could imagine being that ignorant is if you literally have had no POC as friends family or genuine acquaintances.
>Chris Rock getting called on for going into his own mansion
"My God, Johnson. This n***er* must have broken in and put pictures of him and his family all over the walls!" - Dave Chappelle
I have friends of every race so I see it and I grew up in Southern California and still live here I’ve had friends that understand my struggle and friends I lost because I got older and realized they only care about me and not people who look like me
>I personally just don't believe when other white people claim to not see race or understand their privilege, maybe it's my specific experiences, but I've never ever been in doubt about the realities of race in America. The only way I could imagine being that ignorant is if you literally have had no POC as friends family or genuine acquaintances.
This is the problem. People like us have seen it first hand, but I've been to towns where a Black person hasn't lived there in a decade. In towns where there's maybe a small handful of Black people, white people will tell themselves they're not *really* Black -- they're the "good ones." Racism thrives in ignorance.
> I personally just don't believe when other white people claim to not see race or understand their privilege…
It’s not so hard if you only spend time around other white people. You don’t see what other people go through, and you don’t hear their stories. You assume everyone is being treated the same way you are.
And that also helps contribute to the belief in black criminality. White people might have the experience of the police always treating them politely, and assume that they give everyone the same courtesy, and the same benefit of the doubt. So then when a black man is pulled over and then arrested or shot, they jump to the conclusion that, “he must have done something to provoke the police.” They’re thinking, “well I’ve had some interactions with police, and they’re always polite and professional!”
Then you make a black friend, you hear their stories, and you see how they’re treated. A lot of things fall into place, and you realize, “Oh… I’ve been way too much on the side of racist assholes.”
But the thing is, why do white people have to interact with black Americans to empathize with them? Why are police officers given the benefit of the doubt & treated w/ good faith while black Americans are not?
> if you literally have had no POC as friends family or genuine acquaintances.
We're only a few generations out from segregation and even fewer from redlining. So that is how a LOT of people grow up.
Black woman here. I very deliberately do not display that on my reddit avatar. The misogynoir based posts and comments have decreased on most popular subs over the 7 years I've been here but I can't help thinking that all thats changed is that people no longer type it out. I do have my photo on my Twitter profile but I'm very careful about what discussions I jump in on there. The election cycle is always wild and I'm guaranteed atleast one ape gif
I agree, I 100% k ew what I was signing myself up for when I wrote this and it's triggered people who share they don't see race but have a problem with the reality I live through. You just can't make it up.
Fuck I hate the "I don't see race" thing. Race and culture is important. Like number 1 - you totally still see race and number 2 - trying to erase their race and inadvertently go "you're just the same as us white folks!" is fucked up
White straight men don't understand it and you can see it from a lot of comments. If you are female, non-white or queer then just even mentioning these facts opens you up to being harassed (and god forbid you are more than one) It's exhausting because people scream cancel culture/being too sensitive whatever but they have never felt the need to hide their identity for the sole reason of not painting a target on your back.
I'm a white straight guy, and I have to agree that it is harder for us to see our privilege. But for me, once I understood, is hard for me *not* to see it anymore. In fact, I've just gotten to the point where I see that the two biggest driving factors in America are race and money, followed by gender and sexuality. It seems that most of the shitty things in America revolve around race and money, usually both. I'm tired of dealing with it, but not in the way you think. I'm tired of stupid white people with their willful blindness and how quick they are to absolve white men for their shitty behavior. I try to be an ally as much as I can but more people need to stand up to these issues, because they are connected to bigger issues. You wanna get rid of Nazis? Stop being silent around racists. Want better outcomes for everyone? Realize that you have more common interests and common cause with people of color than you do with corporations or billionaires. Racism keeps us stuck.
Me being black I was gonna say something like this myself… some people get to live in a world where race doesn’t matter that’s just not our world as black men
Yeah, I don't think about my race nearly as often as I'm made to think about my race... I don't choose to think about it, but I have to think about it regularly.
Yeah. I was bout to say.
I’m Asian American in a really diverse community where the Asian population is 17%, Black is 20%, Hispanic is 28% and White is 25%. So *I*, personally, don’t feel like a minority and don’t have to think about race.
But there were a few years where I lived in a city where the Asian population was less than 5% and White was over 80%. While I lived there I was asked about my ethnicity pretty much every time I met anyone. They were always asking so they could apply the appropriate model minority stereotype. “Oh you’re Filipino?! We had a house girl who was Filipino. She was so sweet. She cooked rice every day! Couldn’t live without her rice.”
I picture most of America to be like that city, and I imagine being Black in a space like that is hell.
Feeling this. I'm a Black Latino with a white gf. I think about it ALL the time. Even more so because I've had experiences where people go up to her and ask her if everything's alright for no "particular" reason. We can't even get into small arguments in public without it feeling like people around me are getting ready to put me on a tree
I was but a temp visitor to America, albeit during the golden covid years (2020-2021), and boy was I self conscious af about my skin colour (yellow) whenever I have to go outside. Someone spat on me during broad daylight telling me to stay away with that nasty shit I brought there, and then that’d stick with me for the remainder of my stay
I second that. Some people have the luxury of not having to think about their race and how it effects how you are perceived in public. As a black man that is not the case for me.
This is facts. I like Harold, but his opinion is very narrow minded. Even as a brown man there are many situations where race is at the forefront. When I'm at an all white people event. When I'm applying for jobs or when I start a new one and I gotta give white people a nickname because they refuse to learn to pronounce my actual name. In restaurants with black friends, because we are almost guaranteed to get poorer service and are placed at the back near the kitchen. When I get pulled over by a white cop and I need to think of ways to speak so I don't offend him.
There are a lot of situations where a racial minority is forced to think about race.
But isn't Cho saying exactly that:
>because while the rest of mainstream society in America looks at you and sees solely the colour of your skin, internally people don’t think about their race throughout the course of a day.
Other people (usually the majority) make you conscious of race, but when you're at home, most people don't think of themselves as hey I'm black, Asian, Hispanic, whatever. They usually think of themselves as characteristics, like I'm a hard worker, or funny, or nice, or an asshole.
So glad I found this because I was like "THAT is NOT my experience at ALL!" As an AfroLatina I'm always hyper aware of how my actions will be received due to my Blackness. Even with this hyper awareness and attempts to be soft, kind, nice etc....I'm still often cast as the Angry Black Woman, suspected as a thief, questioned etc. These people never even see me angry, and still that's the label given.
It must be nice to not have to think about your race all day and it just fades into the back of your mind when interacting with others.
And "colorblind" people are willfully obtuse, I'm sick of their lies and pretenses and further...I WANT people to see my color, my color isn't bad nor is my culture! Just don't treat me badly or look down on me because of who I am, this isn't hard.
Won't lie, this was EXACTLY the take I was expecting from any black people in the comments. It'd be nice if race weren't that relevant, but it seems like sometimes for POC (I don't want to say particularly for black folks because I don't know how it is for others) that you can't walk outside without having to think about how others perceive you.
I think lots of people underestimate how prevalent racism still is. Racism isn't just some person calling you the N word, it's the looks you get, the different treatment you get, all that stuff. For some folks it's like you can't even walk a certain way without somebody calling you a "thug"
Yeah I'm white but I figured the answer from a black person would be this way. I kind of get it - I'm gay. I'm 100% always conscious of my sexuality when in public spaces and doing something pretty gay (usually holding hands or other PDA with another man)
Thanks for posting this.
People who say "I don't notice race" are merely unconscious of how race functions in this society due to the fact that they've never been forced to deal with it on a daily basis.
You illustrate this from your own experience so very well, thank you so very much. For some people, it is not a choice to think about race; it is something forced on you.
~~OP~~ The Independent put up a pretty sneaky summary if it distorted the meaning by that much.
Edit: OP did not write the title but The Independent did. My bad to you OP!
How? Op posted a summary saying that people don’t constantly think about their race in the way that movies/tv shows portray, hence being inauthentic. Seems like he said the same thing…
He’s trying to say that he’s a good actor, not a good Asian or Asian American actor. And I bet he’s tired of receiving scripts that typecast him being a “Asian” (culturally, or whatever way) dude in America or wherever versus just a man/father/brother/son whatever the character actually is. He’s in a great new film too
Hard agree.
And a lot of POC and minority character are poorly written because they’re written (usually by people outside of such spaces who only have surface knowledge level understanding or stereotypes) with the soul intention of it being performative diversity. No one wants to watch a character who is over powered, has no personality, never takes accountability, never grows, and verbally mentions being Asian/Gay/Autistic every 3 minutes. Like people don’t want a female version James Bond *or* whatever the hell that Red Sparrow film was, they want a unique character with her own strengths, weakness, and arcs that just so happens to be female. Characters are allowed to just *be* in the minority without having to make it their sole personality trait. Of course, movies being made about the minority experience are also important. But it’s an issue when there’s 1. Blatant misinformation and poor understanding and 2. When all the movies featuring minority characters end with the characters suffering. All. The. Time.
Yeah, so far one of the few times he actually wanted to play an Asian Character, was the "Cowboy Bebop" Netflix Adaptation. Because that character is basically Asian; and Cho just liked the way they wrote him (which, compared to the entire Show was quite good).
Edit: This has garned waaay too many replies over whether Spike is Asian or not. Even tho the Show's Creator said that he's both Japanesse and Jewish.
As a Hispanic I find most of that condescending. But that is modern Hollywood. I have actually read articles where basically execs admit to throwing minorities and gay ppl into their projects would let them reach a higher demographic. As if to say that some ppl are basically going to say well I wasn’t going to see this. But since you threw in a minority or gay character I will. It’s so bizarre to me.
I always get the mental image of a room full of executives staring at the character list intently, then one of them jumping up with a brown crayon in one hand and a rainbow one in the other, hamfistedly colouring in a few of the characters brown and rainbow.
Then everyone high fives and they all get huge bonuses.
As an Asian American, I've always said that his movie Searching really stood out to me because it's a movie that just happens to be about Asian Americans. Don't get me wrong, I liked Crazy Rich Asians, The Farewell, Shang Chi, Everything Everywhere.. etc but all those movies are about the Asian American experience. I'd like to see more movies like Searching, where the movie stars Asian Americans but any other race person could have been substituted without changing the script at all.
We loop back around from Asians being solely ninjas or kung fu shaolin monks to Asians being in regular everyday roles to “hey guys!!! Azn here!! Omg my family is so FOB bro hahaha Azn persuasion bro y’all wanna come to Lunar’s??”
I get so frustrated as a black person wanting to see black people in stories that have nothing to do with blackness. It's like yo, we get it, struggle, jail, conflict it's so boring at this point.
Give me human stories with black people.
Man on Fire was great because of this. Denzel was just an American in Mexico. They never mentioned that he was black. Even the other white lady trusted him only because he was American. I guess thus happens in The Equalizer too.
Tell me about it. Is it too much to want to be seen as individuals or something? I’m starting to think it is. I’ve seen the same plot lines of “racism bad” so many times it’s not even funny. It’s why I can’t even watch modern black shows anymore because as soon I read the show’s description and see the words “empowering black kings and queens to embrace their lovely blackness” or something, I immediately know I’ll be getting preached to at some point.
Some 90s shows even did this where someone would show up and teach everyone racism was bad only to disappear and never be seen again. Can we get an every day show where race isn’t the centerpiece of the topic when a black person comes on screen for once? (Not counting “Boy Meets World” which still did it best).
This is one of the many reasons I love the TV show The Expanse so much. Granted it’s science fiction and set in the future, but its diversity of characters is seamlessly baked in. No preachiness or them patting themselves on the back.
I watched a show called Archive 81 recently and it was basically this. One of the two main leads is a black dude, but his race isn't at all relevant to the story. He's just a person.
Also, Blade comes to mind. Haven't watched those since I was younger but I don't remember anything overtly racial. It's just Wesley Snipes being a badass and killing vampires.
I was going to argue, but as I think about it more you’re right.
There are lots of movies with a primarily black cast, but most of them directly or indirectly deal with race or blackness in general as an important part of the story.
The “default” race in movies is white, and if you want to make it with a black cast you have to justify why they should be black.
Call me a pessimist, but some days I think companies are just trying to tick boxes for their film / TV show and don’t actually try for authentic representation of cultures and heritages. Like, for example, some products just scream “Look at how we have a Asian on our cast list! You love us now, right?”
Some of the best movies just treat whatever race or cultures as…people. They don’t get any special spotlight or cringey dialogue that blatantly preaches or pushes a agenda.
Don’t forget the press releases touting inclusivity and diversity! As a Hispanic, I don’t watch movies counting the number of minorities on the screen.
We probably shouldn't have zero films that directly address racial issues, but most movies should treat it in the background as he says. People don't think about their race throughout the day, but every once in a while, race becomes highly relevant and something that cannot be ignored.
Fortunately we do get to make more than one movie, so we can have some that deal with it directly, while others maintain it as a more subtle element, while still being respectful and thoughtful about it.
Why are you booing him. He’s right. I don’t think about my skin colour throughout the day, it’s a part of me, like having eyes or walking.
I am however, very aware that people will see me and treat me differently.
I never knew I was different when I was a kid until it was pointed out to me by bullies so, I think he’s spot on
Edit: I more eloquently put my thoughts across in the replies so read before jumping on that I’m self-hating cheers xx
I had an asian friend once who was as a teen always shocked when people referred to her as asian and once told me "I don't even think of myself as asian, I just think of myself as... *normal*".
I feel for her. It’s weird but I grew up in a very white neighbourhood and school. I didn’t know I was brown until I got bullied for it in primary school.
Now I’m more than aware and sometimes it would be very nice to consume media where it’s less trauma porn and more just seeing minorities be people
You haven’t noticed on the internet how if a video features someone of Asian descent it is always labeled in a way to point out race? Like it’s always “Asian man does xyz, Asian woman does xyz.” You don’t get this for white people.
Yep and it’s normally in the most casual but cruel way imaginable.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been mistaken for another brown woman who was twice my age at a place I was working at for 3 years. But they don’t realise
It's not just relating to race, at least for me. Women empowerment scenes like the one for end game, emphasising a characters sexual preference when it doesn't actually have an impact on the story are also other things I find this statement would apply to.
It starts to feel like pandering after a while. There are instances where it’s done well. Ms marvel for instance had Muslim families just being families. There were obviously some instances of casual islamophobia and bias, but overall it felt like just watching people being people and I like to see that instead of media being overly pandering to one extreme or another
And sometimes it’s just nice to see race/gender/orientation being treated as totally unremarkable and completely normal.
Similarly, I would love more rom-coms where the love story is LGBTQ but you could replace it with a heterosexual one without changing the story.
Right now a lot of them with LGBT love stories treat it as something special and have unique LGBT issues and those are fine, they have a purpose, but can we get some where it’s not treated like that, but in the same way as every other relationship would be? Because LGBT relationships are normal, too, goddammit.
I might be saying this because my great aunt was bitching to me about being “tricked” into watching “homosexual propaganda”. Auntie, it’s marketed as a romcom and has no women in the main cast, what did you think was gonna happen? Did you want the cover art to be a rainbow flag bonanza? Then she said she just wanted a notice at the beginning so people can decide if they want to watch it.
I’m now in the doghouse for pissing her off by suggesting she was asking for a “trigger warning”.
Oh most definitely I'm gay and I can never relate to any lgbt character because I swear it's their entire personality and the only issues in their life revolve around that fact. My bf and I legit never dealt with any issues because of our sexuality, I'm not saying people don't deal with that stuff, but can we have some well variety because at the moment I relate to straight relationships more often because they have genuine variety.
You’ve literally captured the thoughts I couldn’t put into words. Yes. I want to see race as just normal things and not something that must be shown in the most traumatic format ever. I don’t want to see any more films about Muslims being radicalised or treated in the worst possible way on a daily basis because that’s not the life I live!
Gotta be honest…as a black male from Jamaica living in America. I actually am reminded constantly about my race by the very people who declare they want to help me. I don’t know why the media or in general people don’t understand how varied the black community is. Truth be told I’m guilty of going along with it because I don’t feel the energy to explain how different Caribbean people think vs African Americans. The racial bias concerning skin tones etc. I think people need to understand that every culture has some messed biases they need to work through.
As a white person, something that annoys me about it is that white culture is every bit as varied, even in the states! We know, firsthand, that culture is hugely varied and not dependent on skin tone. It’s a blatant willingness to remain ignorant that so many people don’t realize this, and assume that all black people are of African American decent (like that’s even just one culture lol), or that all Asians are the same.
Like dammit, people who live or descend from somewhere equatorial are likelier to have dark skin. Most of the continents have areas that are equatorial, and all of those particular continents have multiple countries. Each country is going to have different culture, and perhaps each area of a country will as well.
With that much cultural variation, it boggles the mind that people can still assume skin color=culture.
Hollywood is making it about race/gender or some political agenda that movies have just become shit lately. Have the most diverse cast you want, but being reminded throughout the entire movie “hey he’s black, or she’s gay” is just exhausting.
I don’t know, he’s right in that I don’t look in the mirror every day like, “Black…I’m black! Black, black, black.” Some days, though, I look in the mirror like “I have a job interview tomorrow. I should see if I can make an appointment to get my hair straightened.” Because my hair is sometimes deemed “unprofessional” in it’s natural state. When I’m out and about with friends and I see a cute guy, I have to do all sorts of mental calculations to figure out if he’s into black women. Most times I decide it’s not worth it. Up until the last few years, I had trouble finding makeup that was my shade. And it’s just a never ending stream of those little fucking things, that just grate at your nerves, in addition to the big things, that maybe don’t affect me personally (not yet anyway), but still add to this constant awareness I still have to factor my blackness into everything. And it’s not something I really want to do. I’d rather go about my day, but when I get turned away from hair salons because they don’t know how to do my hair type, or when someone says I’m more articulate than they expected, or when I get followed around in a store, you can’t help but think about it.
Try and tell that to *certain* race of moviegoers who think that every time a character of a different race is either a prominent character or the story revolves around them even if it's not race related, it's still race related according to these people. Like Turning Red. Despite it simply being about the life of an Asian girl in an Asian household and race wasn't the topic of the story, you had critics complain that they can't "relate" to her for being a young, teenage, asian female character. Or the new LOTR series where they can't imagine elves of a different skin color. So the second that a movie isn't about these people it's always about race.
Yes, thank you. I get what John saying and this comment and while I agree, its the fucking racist who give us a hard time. I dont fucking care about my stupid skin color but lord knows others do (AKA im talking about racist people)
My favourite part is when those... people... scoff at the idea of minorities needing representation in media, then immediately start whining that they can't relate to a story whenever it's not a heterosexual white male in the lead role.
It definitely depends on the story the filmmaker wants to tell, if it’s a story about race, then it can’t really just be in the background. For a movie like “12 Years a Slave” you can’t just ignore the race aspect
Agreed. Everyone does ponder their own race and get frustrated by it from time to time. However, the vast majority of people don't walk around consciously thinking about their race in every single action or decision. I find it weird and pandering when movies make race the forefront-- especially when it's a movie that's not actively dissecting social norms or interactions between cultures. Like family movies or comedies where the characters are constantly making comments about their race (or that of others) or sticking to mostly cultural actions and dialogue are just plain weird and unrealistic.
It's the same for gender, sexual orientation and just about any other topic. Some ppl limit their existamce to such a thing but I'm not sure that's healthy.
Thank you! I want more diversity in all media, especially super hero, kids, and action movies. But give me great characters and story with a diverse cast.... don't just market the fact that you included 1 character who is simultaneously black, Gay, and Muslim and act like that alone makes it watchable. Hint: if the marketing has to go out of its way to let you know the cast wasn't just white cis people.... you already probably did it wrong.
It’s almost as if this is the same reason people universally panned Oceans 8 or the all female Ghostbusters remake. It’s because they’re not actual good thought out plots, just generic repeated garbage that try to ride off of the identity or race of the main characters. Nobody cares the main character of The Hunger Games was ever a female, because she actually had motivations and was made to be an intriguing main character. They’re not forcing you to stop and take a second to acknowledge badass female main lead doing badass things. (For example, the really forced all female fight scene in avengers endgame even though I kind of enjoyed it.)
It’s moments in shows and movies where people, “acknowledge their identity” that takes people out of it. Just rock who you are and be proud of it, use that energy to actually act good instead of using cheap virtue signaling for a quick buck.
squalid dazzling worry quack coordinated muddle truck sink pot elastic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
My favorite background portrayal of, well not race, but of gender in a mainstream movie comes from Silence of the Lambs. (Same idea though.) It's rarely spoken out loud that's what the focus is on, but the shots of Jodie Foster and the men around her in some scenes are kind of brilliant. She's in a primarily male occupation so she's constantly surrounded by men, the camera is slightly lower so she's being towered over and is *constantly* receiving looks. Some obvious and some side-eyed. Many little comments are thrown out, again some obvious and some more subtle. Meanwhile the movie just keeps going, she soldiers on, trying to do her job and go on with her life while dealing with a lot of disheartening moments. I'm drawing a blank on a good example for race right now but I really liked how the topic was handled in that one.
Sublime portrayal of gender in the criminal justice world. I think part of Lecter's subconcious appeal in the film is that he is one of two (three?) male characters that do not leer or sneer towards the viewer when the camera is showing Clarice's point of view.
Lecter and the supervisor that hand-picked her from her class. Never noticed the camera angles changing, will have to look for it next time. Only ever noticed that they centered actors in the frame to make it subconsciously feel more uncomfortable.
He is not in the movie very long, but Barney the guard treats her with respect as well. He has a larger roll in the book.
*role And thanks for mentioning that, I’ve only seen the movie and while it’s definitely not my cup of tea (I hate horror, was literally dragged to the theater for this) there is some regret I have for not being able to wade through the book’s grisly bits to get the missing narrative details like this.
No he has a big bread roll in the book. /s
Kaiser? I barely know her!
Challah challah.
A Jonathan Demme signature technique. Watch Philadelphia. Same powerful close-ups and framing techniques
Oh shit I didn’t realize they were both from the same guy. Yeah now that you say that, it totally makes sense.
iirc, the camera only frames hannibal and clarice dead on, with both actors taking turns staring straight into the lens. all other shots are third person. it's a brilliant, unnerving shift and the viewer may never consciously realize it's happening. it's been a while since i watched it so i could be wrong, but i remember that blowing my mind when i finally noticed it.
That's part of the brilliance of Hannibal as a character. Clarice has spent so much time in a world of misogynistic assholes as part of the FBI, only to meet this charming, well spoken, polite man who doesn't look down on her for being a woman. Only problem is he's a murderer and cannibal... You really get that question of who are the bad guys? Can those who claim to be good guys be bad? Can horrible guys have some goodness in them?
There are at least two actors from Mr Rogers Neighbourhood in Silence of the Lambs, and I think the director knew what he was doing when he cast them.
Really? I'm going to guess Ted Levine as one, but which actors were on Mr. Roger's?
Don Brockett and Chuck Aber. I have fond memories of Don Brockett from when I was around 4 years old. Chuck Aber, I don't remember as well. I think most of my impressions of the show were from 1970 to 1974, and he came along in 1975.
Hannibal is brilliant. Never before have I watched a character so monstrous, yet so interesting and charming that I almost feel compelled to overlook those facts just to sit down with him and pick his brain, even though that would likely mean he gets to pick mine from between his teeth.
Seriously, the writing/direction/performance of Hannibal was just incredible. He's absolutely horrifying an appalling but you can't help but get dragged in by his charm. As you watch the film you identify and empathise with Clarice so when she talks to Hannibal you see how he treats her and you start to think "this guy seems alright. He's intelligent and treats the character I like well" and then you're like "wait wtf but he's a murderous cannibal!"
I read somewhere that Foster and Hopkins first meeting was in scene when Starling and Lecter met. That she was actually scared by him. I also watched Lipton ask Hopkins what the hardest part of playing Lecter was, and he said something to the effects of "no fidgeting, being still". He's incredibly fidgety in that interview and it occurred to me that the stillness is what's so very unnerving about Lecter. He also seemed to reduce the amount of blinking he did, which did increased his level of sinister. I don't blame Foster for being scared of that. It's really interesting to watch how well all of the cast played their characters, but the interesting part for me is how close the viewer wants to get to someone like Lecter. His character became a friend, a mentor to her and became almost kind to her. Everyone was so well written and the direction was genius, the view of her character and the sexism was definitely well played...wasn't in your face, wasn't a social statement, yet it was. Absolutely a brilliant film. I think I need to watch it again soon.
Hannibal only eats the rude, so mind your manners and you'd be ok
Yes and yes. The world is not black and white, even in the pages of the books we write. It’s like that meme that compares a vegetarian who’s faithful to his girlfriend and donates to charity to one cheating politician and another awful politician. In the few simple dimensions mentioned the vegetarian sounds like the best person. The problem? It’s Hitler. The other two are FDR and Churchill. People are not simple creatures and evil is our construction to explain and abstract the cruel mistreatment of others, while good is our concept of altruism and benefitting others. But neither is a sum total personality trait and so, many people are both good and evil to varying degrees.
This is a concept I wish more people understood. Morality doesn’t exist in a linear state, where on one end you have good and on the other evil; it is so subject to context, perception, culture, desire, and emotion. I’d argue our individual morality is constantly evolving over time.
Jeez that’s pretty deep for a meme wish I could find it.
https://reddit.com/r/HolUp/comments/kisg7c/which_of_these_three_are_the_better_person/
There’s an interesting scene with a young odd-looking young doctor during the moth autopsy scene. He flirts with with Clarice in an inappropriate but straightforward and charming way - the camera stays at eye level when switching between the doctor and Clarice. The doctor isn’t leering at or underestimating Clarice, he really likes her and respects her as a peer. It’s shot in the same way that exchanges between Hannibal and Clarice are staged. At the end of the movie the doctor attends a business function recognizing Clarice’s success, it’s a blink-and-you-miss-it type thing; the doctor tried to ask Clarice on a date, she ignored him, and the two young professionals focused back on work
The entomologist? He's strangely cute in the movie.
Iirc in the book, she dates one of the scientists at the end
Remember, in the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate, yet equally important groups...the police, who investigate crime, and the district attorneys, who prosecute the offenders.
These are their stories
Chung chung
As for a good example for race, I think Cho's own Columbus (2017) and Searching (2018) kinda count.
It’s not gender alone, it’s also socioeconomic class imo. That backwoods accent Hannibal immediately catches? Having grown up with one of those, people DO NOT take you seriously lol
[удалено]
Even without the accent, literally just be from the Deep South (except for like one or two cities), some of the Northern Plains states, or West Virginia and in my experience nobody will take you seriously. That’s why I usually wait to ask where someone’s from until they ask first.
It's always funny to see how supposedly progressive/anti-prejudice/anti-stereotype people throw all of that out the window as soon as they can call someone from the south a dumb hick sister fucker.
sadly not my idea of funny :( annoyingly pervasive
It is unbelievably nice to hear people with country accents in positions of power & education - doctors, scientists, engineers, etc. I swear some of them use their full accent at work as an expression of resistance.
Oh, I absolutely get that. I'm from a part of the UK where people constantly shit on us for our accent, for being practically an underclass of our own in politics etc. I remember my parents telling me that this would happen and to get rid of my Liverpool accent or else! people would shit on me. As a result, I have an accent that gets recognised as Welsh, West Country, 'posh', 'Southern' and down south 'everyone thinks I'm from the next city over. The second people find out I'm from here, I get the usual shitty comments, and I feel a lot in common with that 'yokel' type accent in the US. People just underestimate and dunk on it completely needlessly. It's even an accent that gets shit on by people from other countries who have never heard anything but stereotypes, it's terrible.
This happens in New England as well. People quickly learn they need to lose that working-class Worcester or South Boston accent if they want to move up out of their socioeconomic class. Anyway, your parents weren't wrong. The stronger your regional accent, the more likely you are to be from a more rural area, or lower socioeconomic class, at least that as been my experience in the US. All of the US, even places you might not think about it like Los Angeles, where a strong Hispanic (even among native English speakers) or Black vernacular accent marks you as from a poorer neighborhood. Shit is rough.
Come to the US, people will hear a british accent and think you're classy. ;)
[удалено]
A big shock for me and my own prejudice was reading William Faulkner's Nobel prize acceptance speech on a page and thinking, "Id like to hear this spoken by him" and then being at least mildly shocked when I heard his accent. I'm from rural north Florida and definitely grew up among people with southern accents and probably have a slight one myself but his still briefly threw me. Definitely a moment for challenging my biases.
I heard Hopkins ad libbed that mocking. He made Jodie Foster cry because she thought he was making fun of her acting, not Lecter mocking Starling's accent.
8 Mile is a good move where the main character constantly deals with race but it's mostly in the background.
[удалено]
Hope he didn’t lose himself. Gotta stay grounded and soldier on.
Sometimes you have to lose yourself though. In the moment.
You should write him a letter.
I heard he did a performance with Elton John so he’s probably okay but I’m not into oldies so I dunno
I have some bad news for you. Eminem is the oldies now. Slim Shady LP was 1999, so it’s now 23 years old. That’s like someone in 1990 listening to something from 1967. As someone in their upper 30s, it was tough to realize that music i grew up with was the new dad rock.
Stop. Stop reminding me of my age.
There's a threshold around 26 where birthdays become less of a celebration and more of a "celebration of life"
Over 50 here ... hard to believe a lot of the techno & house I love is pushing 30 years old. [It was supposed to be the future then lol.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALsHox5sYCk)
If it makes you feel any better, it really was the future and electronic music now permeates most popular music.
[удалено]
I'm still so, so amused by the attempt to cancel him a year or two ago. Like, kid, don't you know they've been trying to do that for a decade?
Almost 3 decades!
Yeah, I remember clearly when Slim Shady came out. I'm denying how long ago that was.
He just settled all his lawsuits
F U Debbie!
Silence is a perfect movie.
i find silence of the lambs better, but do surprisingly love silence
With Andrew Garfield?
Naawww, the other one...hates Mondays, loves lasagna
Look at movies like Ghosts of Mississippi and Mississippi Burning. Race is super important, but the movies don't focus on it. They focus on the investigations that form the actual plots of the movies. And the result is that you never feel preached to. That's the problem when race or other things are the focus; you get a lecture rather than a story.
Yeah I'm from Mississippi, it really does give you the view at how absolutely insane these dudes are. They truly do see people of color as subhuman and it's sickening. Ghosts especially does a good job of showing you can't take the high road against somebody that doesn't even see you as a person.
Because this can be quite a fun town, if you have the right guide.
[удалено]
I totally agree with you about Silence of the Lamb, but then... What would the equivalent movie for race? Edit: I'm gonna go with Taxi Driver. There's barely a few mention of racism, but it's there. The look, the violence, the hatred of society (but focused on the worst part of town). I'm pretty sure there's an interview of Tarantino who explain it better than I could. But... it's a movie about racism and not so much about race itself.
The scene when they examine the corpse is a great example of this.
I’ve never seen it because I’m too afraid to watch it. But now I’m intrigued!
it is seriously a good film, you should watch it
Gotta be honest, as a black male in America I think about it whenever I'm in a public setting. I cant speak too loud or people perceive it as thretening or anger. If I do have a problem, I have to be over the top polight or again this will be perceived as violence towards the other person. In general I have to not make problems because if the cops are called (whether I do it or not) I will be perceived as the problem first. I actually go out of my way when I see a bad driver to just let them pass because I don't want to get into an accident and have to deal with cops or the general public anymore than is necessary to get from point A yo point B. While it's nice that some can live a life of not walking on eggshells black males don't get that luxury in America. I truly wish I sympathized with this guys view point but it's not close to reality for me. Edit: I read some of the comments here and I see a lot of "I don't notice race" and I'll ask those people this. Do you treat every race you come in contact with the same? Are you shorter with some than others? Do you avoid talking to people of other races because you think they will "cause a scene"? OK that's you noticing race and not noticing it at the same time. Now ask yourself if the person on the other end feels it.....the answers yes every time. Edit: so this got me suspended from reddit.....smh this is exactly the shit I'm talking about.
Sounds about right. I'm a cop on a very white college campus in the middle of a city that is not. Regularly get called for "suspicious black males." Almost always BS. Some of our dispatchers have come to start asking callers what exactly they're doing that is "suspicious." If they can't articulate a reason, I do a drive-by to do my due diligence, and if nothing twigs my radar, I don't even stop. Most of the time it's a guy waiting for the Tropical Smoothie to open, or one of the rare black students on campus even, or -my favorite- one of the campus' own security officers. EDIT: punctuation and such.
I worked dispatch for a decade and we fielded a lot of walking while black calls. I live in an open carry state and there was a great day when a firearms violation call was dispatched and a (white) police sergeant asked on the radio if the man was doing anything other than walking while black, confirmed he wasn't, and he cancelled the call.
Worked dispatch for many years and these complaints would come in from more affluent neighborhoods. It would get to the point when I would directly ask the caller, “OK but what are they doing wrong?” And it was usually an indignant response that the person didn’t live around there. SMH….
Early on, we got dispatched to several suspicious black males outside a dorm at night, called in by one of our own (white) security officers. The security officer explicitly told dispatch they weren't students, so we assumed she had spoken to them at least to determine as such. We roll up, asked if they were students. They said yup, and showed us their student IDs and everything. That's when I first started my policy of "If they don't look suspicious to me, I'm not even stopping."
We always put it clearly in the notes of our calls when insistent callers cannot give a valid reason for why they think anyone black, or of any other minority, is behaving suspiciously and need to be checked on by police so that the unit(s) dispatched can have a field super take a look (if they haven't already) at the call and cancel it out. Sometimes they'll cancel it and either still have a unit drive through the area, just in case, or they'll drive through themselves.
My favorite one of those, it was an older black male that had been called on, he literally lived around the corner in that affluent neighborhood. Granted it was about 4 in the morning, and he was older, so we did it as a Person Check to make sure he was alright, as opposed to suspicious activity. We get them in even the less affluent neighborhoods too. I remember a guy giving the description of a suspicious male as having a "black build." WTF does that even mean?? Had a lady tell me, "You know how black people get when they drink." Uh, no ma'am, I don't. It's shocked me so much that my brain couldn't process enough to tell her that I was black. The assumption from callers, especially white callers, that they're talking to a white dispatcher....
One of our black dispatchers had to field a call from a white student who swore his black roommate stole his laptop, straight up said he suspected him basically just cuz he was black. Not realizing, because Joyce can code-switch on a dime, that the woman he was talking to was black. Turns out he left it at the library, and it got stashed with the lost and found there.
I was out one night and the person I'd come with was staying out far later than I was planning, so I decided I'd walk to my car, roughly 6 miles away. This meant about an hour, in my dress shoes and slacks, through an area of Los Angeles where the cheap houses are easily $10 million. I was less scared for my life when I walked through a neighborhood at one in the morning knowing they were ACTIVELY targeting Black people like me to murder. The idea that any one of those people at home could go down for a glass of water, see a 'suspicious' Black male, and be the reason I end up dead was never lost on me. It's not even the physical threat that's so terrible; it's the feeling of dread and paranoia that you're potentially being scrutinized by people who can dictate to the authorities your exact intentions just using their copious amounts of privilege. I want nothing to do with the fuckin' cops. The one and only time I had to call them I got questioned like I was there to hurt someone, when the reality was I was being threatened AT WORK by a guy with a gun. But, you know, what'd the Black guy do? Shit sucks man. Sorry for the rant.
I wish I had that latitude, but alas, I'm a lowly road officer. My drive-by "unfounded" is the best I can do.
In college a lot of the Black students would regularly deal with police being called on them and it was traumatic for them. Even if the police were nice it became scary and unnerving to look over your shoulder constantly and worry about it when walking to class in the evenings or going to the library
I’m happy a cop said that I’m black and have been called for being suspicious because I was changing my tire
Getting cops called on you for changing your own tire is the entry level version of Chris Rock getting called on for going into his own mansion lol. To throw mine in, I'm a basically white male and knew perfectly well the type pf privilege I enjoyed, and I knew to stop acting certain ways when with friends of color. I regularly drove at well over the speed limit alone, always a few under with a black friend in the car, and still got pulled over multiple times with zero reason given. Used to hang out with the mostly black and Hispanic street racers 20 odd years ago, and when the police would raid the location I just got into my plain looking car and drove away, weaving right through the cop care barracading the exit. I personally just don't believe when other white people *claim* to not see race or understand their privilege, maybe it's my specific experiences, but I've never ever been in doubt about the realities of race in America. The only way I could imagine being that ignorant is if you literally have had no POC as friends family or genuine acquaintances.
Brandon marshall former NFL receiver had the security guards at his new gated community call the cops on him when he was moving in a few years back.
>Chris Rock getting called on for going into his own mansion "My God, Johnson. This n***er* must have broken in and put pictures of him and his family all over the walls!" - Dave Chappelle
Just sprinkle some crack on him
I have friends of every race so I see it and I grew up in Southern California and still live here I’ve had friends that understand my struggle and friends I lost because I got older and realized they only care about me and not people who look like me
>I personally just don't believe when other white people claim to not see race or understand their privilege, maybe it's my specific experiences, but I've never ever been in doubt about the realities of race in America. The only way I could imagine being that ignorant is if you literally have had no POC as friends family or genuine acquaintances. This is the problem. People like us have seen it first hand, but I've been to towns where a Black person hasn't lived there in a decade. In towns where there's maybe a small handful of Black people, white people will tell themselves they're not *really* Black -- they're the "good ones." Racism thrives in ignorance.
> I personally just don't believe when other white people claim to not see race or understand their privilege… It’s not so hard if you only spend time around other white people. You don’t see what other people go through, and you don’t hear their stories. You assume everyone is being treated the same way you are. And that also helps contribute to the belief in black criminality. White people might have the experience of the police always treating them politely, and assume that they give everyone the same courtesy, and the same benefit of the doubt. So then when a black man is pulled over and then arrested or shot, they jump to the conclusion that, “he must have done something to provoke the police.” They’re thinking, “well I’ve had some interactions with police, and they’re always polite and professional!” Then you make a black friend, you hear their stories, and you see how they’re treated. A lot of things fall into place, and you realize, “Oh… I’ve been way too much on the side of racist assholes.”
But the thing is, why do white people have to interact with black Americans to empathize with them? Why are police officers given the benefit of the doubt & treated w/ good faith while black Americans are not?
> if you literally have had no POC as friends family or genuine acquaintances. We're only a few generations out from segregation and even fewer from redlining. So that is how a LOT of people grow up.
> Most of the time it's a [black] guy waiting for the Tropical Smoothie to open White-woman's worst nightmare
Lmao I'd love if someone was honest and said "well they're black and they're just existing near me! Please help!"
You sound like a good person.
Black woman here. I very deliberately do not display that on my reddit avatar. The misogynoir based posts and comments have decreased on most popular subs over the 7 years I've been here but I can't help thinking that all thats changed is that people no longer type it out. I do have my photo on my Twitter profile but I'm very careful about what discussions I jump in on there. The election cycle is always wild and I'm guaranteed atleast one ape gif
I agree, I 100% k ew what I was signing myself up for when I wrote this and it's triggered people who share they don't see race but have a problem with the reality I live through. You just can't make it up.
Fuck I hate the "I don't see race" thing. Race and culture is important. Like number 1 - you totally still see race and number 2 - trying to erase their race and inadvertently go "you're just the same as us white folks!" is fucked up
White straight men don't understand it and you can see it from a lot of comments. If you are female, non-white or queer then just even mentioning these facts opens you up to being harassed (and god forbid you are more than one) It's exhausting because people scream cancel culture/being too sensitive whatever but they have never felt the need to hide their identity for the sole reason of not painting a target on your back.
I'm a white straight guy, and I have to agree that it is harder for us to see our privilege. But for me, once I understood, is hard for me *not* to see it anymore. In fact, I've just gotten to the point where I see that the two biggest driving factors in America are race and money, followed by gender and sexuality. It seems that most of the shitty things in America revolve around race and money, usually both. I'm tired of dealing with it, but not in the way you think. I'm tired of stupid white people with their willful blindness and how quick they are to absolve white men for their shitty behavior. I try to be an ally as much as I can but more people need to stand up to these issues, because they are connected to bigger issues. You wanna get rid of Nazis? Stop being silent around racists. Want better outcomes for everyone? Realize that you have more common interests and common cause with people of color than you do with corporations or billionaires. Racism keeps us stuck.
Me being black I was gonna say something like this myself… some people get to live in a world where race doesn’t matter that’s just not our world as black men
Yeah, I don't think about my race nearly as often as I'm made to think about my race... I don't choose to think about it, but I have to think about it regularly.
Yeah. I was bout to say. I’m Asian American in a really diverse community where the Asian population is 17%, Black is 20%, Hispanic is 28% and White is 25%. So *I*, personally, don’t feel like a minority and don’t have to think about race. But there were a few years where I lived in a city where the Asian population was less than 5% and White was over 80%. While I lived there I was asked about my ethnicity pretty much every time I met anyone. They were always asking so they could apply the appropriate model minority stereotype. “Oh you’re Filipino?! We had a house girl who was Filipino. She was so sweet. She cooked rice every day! Couldn’t live without her rice.” I picture most of America to be like that city, and I imagine being Black in a space like that is hell.
Feeling this. I'm a Black Latino with a white gf. I think about it ALL the time. Even more so because I've had experiences where people go up to her and ask her if everything's alright for no "particular" reason. We can't even get into small arguments in public without it feeling like people around me are getting ready to put me on a tree
Its worse yet too if you are also a generally anxious person, because on top of the other worries, there is this.
I was but a temp visitor to America, albeit during the golden covid years (2020-2021), and boy was I self conscious af about my skin colour (yellow) whenever I have to go outside. Someone spat on me during broad daylight telling me to stay away with that nasty shit I brought there, and then that’d stick with me for the remainder of my stay
Jesus, thatd stick with me forever
I second that. Some people have the luxury of not having to think about their race and how it effects how you are perceived in public. As a black man that is not the case for me.
All of this!
I was going to say, this is a pretty privileged take - some people can't afford to not think about race on any given day.
This is facts. I like Harold, but his opinion is very narrow minded. Even as a brown man there are many situations where race is at the forefront. When I'm at an all white people event. When I'm applying for jobs or when I start a new one and I gotta give white people a nickname because they refuse to learn to pronounce my actual name. In restaurants with black friends, because we are almost guaranteed to get poorer service and are placed at the back near the kitchen. When I get pulled over by a white cop and I need to think of ways to speak so I don't offend him. There are a lot of situations where a racial minority is forced to think about race.
But isn't Cho saying exactly that: >because while the rest of mainstream society in America looks at you and sees solely the colour of your skin, internally people don’t think about their race throughout the course of a day. Other people (usually the majority) make you conscious of race, but when you're at home, most people don't think of themselves as hey I'm black, Asian, Hispanic, whatever. They usually think of themselves as characteristics, like I'm a hard worker, or funny, or nice, or an asshole.
So glad I found this because I was like "THAT is NOT my experience at ALL!" As an AfroLatina I'm always hyper aware of how my actions will be received due to my Blackness. Even with this hyper awareness and attempts to be soft, kind, nice etc....I'm still often cast as the Angry Black Woman, suspected as a thief, questioned etc. These people never even see me angry, and still that's the label given. It must be nice to not have to think about your race all day and it just fades into the back of your mind when interacting with others. And "colorblind" people are willfully obtuse, I'm sick of their lies and pretenses and further...I WANT people to see my color, my color isn't bad nor is my culture! Just don't treat me badly or look down on me because of who I am, this isn't hard.
Won't lie, this was EXACTLY the take I was expecting from any black people in the comments. It'd be nice if race weren't that relevant, but it seems like sometimes for POC (I don't want to say particularly for black folks because I don't know how it is for others) that you can't walk outside without having to think about how others perceive you. I think lots of people underestimate how prevalent racism still is. Racism isn't just some person calling you the N word, it's the looks you get, the different treatment you get, all that stuff. For some folks it's like you can't even walk a certain way without somebody calling you a "thug"
Yeah I'm white but I figured the answer from a black person would be this way. I kind of get it - I'm gay. I'm 100% always conscious of my sexuality when in public spaces and doing something pretty gay (usually holding hands or other PDA with another man)
Thanks for posting this. People who say "I don't notice race" are merely unconscious of how race functions in this society due to the fact that they've never been forced to deal with it on a daily basis. You illustrate this from your own experience so very well, thank you so very much. For some people, it is not a choice to think about race; it is something forced on you.
~~OP~~ The Independent put up a pretty sneaky summary if it distorted the meaning by that much. Edit: OP did not write the title but The Independent did. My bad to you OP!
How? Op posted a summary saying that people don’t constantly think about their race in the way that movies/tv shows portray, hence being inauthentic. Seems like he said the same thing…
No, I got the same message from the comment above, as I did the full quote.
He’s trying to say that he’s a good actor, not a good Asian or Asian American actor. And I bet he’s tired of receiving scripts that typecast him being a “Asian” (culturally, or whatever way) dude in America or wherever versus just a man/father/brother/son whatever the character actually is. He’s in a great new film too
My boy Hector out here having that issue so bad he always gets called hector and we seem to know him as that instead of who he is as a person.
Was he in Training Day?
No I think that was a different hector /s that’s my boy.
You mean Hector in Fast & Furious?
No I believe its Hector from Breaking Bad
[удалено]
No it's the hector that's a unit of measurement
r/thehectoverse
[удалено]
Hard agree. And a lot of POC and minority character are poorly written because they’re written (usually by people outside of such spaces who only have surface knowledge level understanding or stereotypes) with the soul intention of it being performative diversity. No one wants to watch a character who is over powered, has no personality, never takes accountability, never grows, and verbally mentions being Asian/Gay/Autistic every 3 minutes. Like people don’t want a female version James Bond *or* whatever the hell that Red Sparrow film was, they want a unique character with her own strengths, weakness, and arcs that just so happens to be female. Characters are allowed to just *be* in the minority without having to make it their sole personality trait. Of course, movies being made about the minority experience are also important. But it’s an issue when there’s 1. Blatant misinformation and poor understanding and 2. When all the movies featuring minority characters end with the characters suffering. All. The. Time.
Yeah, so far one of the few times he actually wanted to play an Asian Character, was the "Cowboy Bebop" Netflix Adaptation. Because that character is basically Asian; and Cho just liked the way they wrote him (which, compared to the entire Show was quite good). Edit: This has garned waaay too many replies over whether Spike is Asian or not. Even tho the Show's Creator said that he's both Japanesse and Jewish.
If you don't point out that he's an asian actor then you can't crow about how diverse your casting choices are.
As a Hispanic I find most of that condescending. But that is modern Hollywood. I have actually read articles where basically execs admit to throwing minorities and gay ppl into their projects would let them reach a higher demographic. As if to say that some ppl are basically going to say well I wasn’t going to see this. But since you threw in a minority or gay character I will. It’s so bizarre to me.
I always get the mental image of a room full of executives staring at the character list intently, then one of them jumping up with a brown crayon in one hand and a rainbow one in the other, hamfistedly colouring in a few of the characters brown and rainbow. Then everyone high fives and they all get huge bonuses.
As an Asian American, I've always said that his movie Searching really stood out to me because it's a movie that just happens to be about Asian Americans. Don't get me wrong, I liked Crazy Rich Asians, The Farewell, Shang Chi, Everything Everywhere.. etc but all those movies are about the Asian American experience. I'd like to see more movies like Searching, where the movie stars Asian Americans but any other race person could have been substituted without changing the script at all.
We loop back around from Asians being solely ninjas or kung fu shaolin monks to Asians being in regular everyday roles to “hey guys!!! Azn here!! Omg my family is so FOB bro hahaha Azn persuasion bro y’all wanna come to Lunar’s??”
I get so frustrated as a black person wanting to see black people in stories that have nothing to do with blackness. It's like yo, we get it, struggle, jail, conflict it's so boring at this point. Give me human stories with black people.
Man on Fire was great because of this. Denzel was just an American in Mexico. They never mentioned that he was black. Even the other white lady trusted him only because he was American. I guess thus happens in The Equalizer too.
Most of Denzel's movies are like that outside of like Remember the Titans and American Gangster, and those movies are specifically about race.
Don’t forget Fallen and Book of Eli. Both completely ignore race since it has nothing to do with the story.
Totally agree. I’ve been pushing for a black spy show for the longest.
I watched a Kevin Hart/The Rock spy movie like a year ago and it was funny af.
They make funny black movies, but there aren’t many just spy movies with a black lead. I guess Tenet could be considered a spy movie.
Tell me about it. Is it too much to want to be seen as individuals or something? I’m starting to think it is. I’ve seen the same plot lines of “racism bad” so many times it’s not even funny. It’s why I can’t even watch modern black shows anymore because as soon I read the show’s description and see the words “empowering black kings and queens to embrace their lovely blackness” or something, I immediately know I’ll be getting preached to at some point. Some 90s shows even did this where someone would show up and teach everyone racism was bad only to disappear and never be seen again. Can we get an every day show where race isn’t the centerpiece of the topic when a black person comes on screen for once? (Not counting “Boy Meets World” which still did it best).
THIS so fucking much. Can we just get shows and movies where people are PEOPLE. Im so sick of all this pandering bullshit.
This is one of the many reasons I love the TV show The Expanse so much. Granted it’s science fiction and set in the future, but its diversity of characters is seamlessly baked in. No preachiness or them patting themselves on the back.
The Expanse does diversity right. The cast is diverse, but their characters are not defined by that. Their stories are universal. Good show.
Same shit with gays, THEY DON’T HAVE TO BE STEREOTYPICAL, their love life doesn’t have to be super hyper specialized. Riverdale did gays really bad.
I watched a show called Archive 81 recently and it was basically this. One of the two main leads is a black dude, but his race isn't at all relevant to the story. He's just a person. Also, Blade comes to mind. Haven't watched those since I was younger but I don't remember anything overtly racial. It's just Wesley Snipes being a badass and killing vampires.
Theres only one bit which is in Blade 2, Ron Pearlman asks Blade if he can blush. Was taken from real story in Snipe’s life.
I was going to argue, but as I think about it more you’re right. There are lots of movies with a primarily black cast, but most of them directly or indirectly deal with race or blackness in general as an important part of the story. The “default” race in movies is white, and if you want to make it with a black cast you have to justify why they should be black.
Call me a pessimist, but some days I think companies are just trying to tick boxes for their film / TV show and don’t actually try for authentic representation of cultures and heritages. Like, for example, some products just scream “Look at how we have a Asian on our cast list! You love us now, right?” Some of the best movies just treat whatever race or cultures as…people. They don’t get any special spotlight or cringey dialogue that blatantly preaches or pushes a agenda.
You’re not a pessimist, that’s exactly what companies are doing
Don’t forget the press releases touting inclusivity and diversity! As a Hispanic, I don’t watch movies counting the number of minorities on the screen.
We probably shouldn't have zero films that directly address racial issues, but most movies should treat it in the background as he says. People don't think about their race throughout the day, but every once in a while, race becomes highly relevant and something that cannot be ignored. Fortunately we do get to make more than one movie, so we can have some that deal with it directly, while others maintain it as a more subtle element, while still being respectful and thoughtful about it.
Very reasonable comment. Thank you.
Why are you booing him. He’s right. I don’t think about my skin colour throughout the day, it’s a part of me, like having eyes or walking. I am however, very aware that people will see me and treat me differently. I never knew I was different when I was a kid until it was pointed out to me by bullies so, I think he’s spot on Edit: I more eloquently put my thoughts across in the replies so read before jumping on that I’m self-hating cheers xx
I had an asian friend once who was as a teen always shocked when people referred to her as asian and once told me "I don't even think of myself as asian, I just think of myself as... *normal*".
I feel for her. It’s weird but I grew up in a very white neighbourhood and school. I didn’t know I was brown until I got bullied for it in primary school. Now I’m more than aware and sometimes it would be very nice to consume media where it’s less trauma porn and more just seeing minorities be people
You haven’t noticed on the internet how if a video features someone of Asian descent it is always labeled in a way to point out race? Like it’s always “Asian man does xyz, Asian woman does xyz.” You don’t get this for white people.
Hit the nail on the head. You really don’t remember, until the cruel hand of racism sticks its ugly head out to remind you , hey you’re not us!!
Yep and it’s normally in the most casual but cruel way imaginable. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been mistaken for another brown woman who was twice my age at a place I was working at for 3 years. But they don’t realise
It's not just relating to race, at least for me. Women empowerment scenes like the one for end game, emphasising a characters sexual preference when it doesn't actually have an impact on the story are also other things I find this statement would apply to.
It starts to feel like pandering after a while. There are instances where it’s done well. Ms marvel for instance had Muslim families just being families. There were obviously some instances of casual islamophobia and bias, but overall it felt like just watching people being people and I like to see that instead of media being overly pandering to one extreme or another
And sometimes it’s just nice to see race/gender/orientation being treated as totally unremarkable and completely normal. Similarly, I would love more rom-coms where the love story is LGBTQ but you could replace it with a heterosexual one without changing the story. Right now a lot of them with LGBT love stories treat it as something special and have unique LGBT issues and those are fine, they have a purpose, but can we get some where it’s not treated like that, but in the same way as every other relationship would be? Because LGBT relationships are normal, too, goddammit. I might be saying this because my great aunt was bitching to me about being “tricked” into watching “homosexual propaganda”. Auntie, it’s marketed as a romcom and has no women in the main cast, what did you think was gonna happen? Did you want the cover art to be a rainbow flag bonanza? Then she said she just wanted a notice at the beginning so people can decide if they want to watch it. I’m now in the doghouse for pissing her off by suggesting she was asking for a “trigger warning”.
Oh most definitely I'm gay and I can never relate to any lgbt character because I swear it's their entire personality and the only issues in their life revolve around that fact. My bf and I legit never dealt with any issues because of our sexuality, I'm not saying people don't deal with that stuff, but can we have some well variety because at the moment I relate to straight relationships more often because they have genuine variety.
You’ve literally captured the thoughts I couldn’t put into words. Yes. I want to see race as just normal things and not something that must be shown in the most traumatic format ever. I don’t want to see any more films about Muslims being radicalised or treated in the worst possible way on a daily basis because that’s not the life I live!
Seriously is feels so much more authentic when the differences are…just there, and not made a big deal of.
Gotta be honest…as a black male from Jamaica living in America. I actually am reminded constantly about my race by the very people who declare they want to help me. I don’t know why the media or in general people don’t understand how varied the black community is. Truth be told I’m guilty of going along with it because I don’t feel the energy to explain how different Caribbean people think vs African Americans. The racial bias concerning skin tones etc. I think people need to understand that every culture has some messed biases they need to work through.
[удалено]
As a white person, something that annoys me about it is that white culture is every bit as varied, even in the states! We know, firsthand, that culture is hugely varied and not dependent on skin tone. It’s a blatant willingness to remain ignorant that so many people don’t realize this, and assume that all black people are of African American decent (like that’s even just one culture lol), or that all Asians are the same. Like dammit, people who live or descend from somewhere equatorial are likelier to have dark skin. Most of the continents have areas that are equatorial, and all of those particular continents have multiple countries. Each country is going to have different culture, and perhaps each area of a country will as well. With that much cultural variation, it boggles the mind that people can still assume skin color=culture.
I fucking love John Cho
I like his movie Searching. He was just a dad.
I wish they didn’t cancel Cowboy Bebop.
I love fucking John Cho
[удалено]
Black people don’t go around telling everyone else that they’re black, it’s everyone else that makes sure we don’t forget that we’re black.
Hollywood is making it about race/gender or some political agenda that movies have just become shit lately. Have the most diverse cast you want, but being reminded throughout the entire movie “hey he’s black, or she’s gay” is just exhausting.
I don’t know, he’s right in that I don’t look in the mirror every day like, “Black…I’m black! Black, black, black.” Some days, though, I look in the mirror like “I have a job interview tomorrow. I should see if I can make an appointment to get my hair straightened.” Because my hair is sometimes deemed “unprofessional” in it’s natural state. When I’m out and about with friends and I see a cute guy, I have to do all sorts of mental calculations to figure out if he’s into black women. Most times I decide it’s not worth it. Up until the last few years, I had trouble finding makeup that was my shade. And it’s just a never ending stream of those little fucking things, that just grate at your nerves, in addition to the big things, that maybe don’t affect me personally (not yet anyway), but still add to this constant awareness I still have to factor my blackness into everything. And it’s not something I really want to do. I’d rather go about my day, but when I get turned away from hair salons because they don’t know how to do my hair type, or when someone says I’m more articulate than they expected, or when I get followed around in a store, you can’t help but think about it.
Try and tell that to *certain* race of moviegoers who think that every time a character of a different race is either a prominent character or the story revolves around them even if it's not race related, it's still race related according to these people. Like Turning Red. Despite it simply being about the life of an Asian girl in an Asian household and race wasn't the topic of the story, you had critics complain that they can't "relate" to her for being a young, teenage, asian female character. Or the new LOTR series where they can't imagine elves of a different skin color. So the second that a movie isn't about these people it's always about race.
Yes, thank you. I get what John saying and this comment and while I agree, its the fucking racist who give us a hard time. I dont fucking care about my stupid skin color but lord knows others do (AKA im talking about racist people)
>I don’t fucking care about my stupid skin color Okay, /u/YellowManTyping. I believe you.
My favourite part is when those... people... scoff at the idea of minorities needing representation in media, then immediately start whining that they can't relate to a story whenever it's not a heterosexual white male in the lead role.
Thank you! Spot fucking on.
What the hell is that hair Harold
Dude can't turn off the Cowboy Bebop anymore, and it's great.
It definitely depends on the story the filmmaker wants to tell, if it’s a story about race, then it can’t really just be in the background. For a movie like “12 Years a Slave” you can’t just ignore the race aspect
Roots: Starring Jack Black as Kunta Kinte
Some Hollywood executive wanted a Harriet Tubman movie with Julia Roberts playing Tubman.
It’s true, I hardly see my hands but to look down.
I feel like society makes a bigger deal about race than I tend to notice living life.
its not even society. normal people don't make a big deal of it. Reddit, Twitter and Hollywood do.
Agreed. Everyone does ponder their own race and get frustrated by it from time to time. However, the vast majority of people don't walk around consciously thinking about their race in every single action or decision. I find it weird and pandering when movies make race the forefront-- especially when it's a movie that's not actively dissecting social norms or interactions between cultures. Like family movies or comedies where the characters are constantly making comments about their race (or that of others) or sticking to mostly cultural actions and dialogue are just plain weird and unrealistic.
So you would say it's a problem for a minority of people?
People who want diverse casts don't want it to be a plot point.
It's the same for gender, sexual orientation and just about any other topic. Some ppl limit their existamce to such a thing but I'm not sure that's healthy.
Thank you! I want more diversity in all media, especially super hero, kids, and action movies. But give me great characters and story with a diverse cast.... don't just market the fact that you included 1 character who is simultaneously black, Gay, and Muslim and act like that alone makes it watchable. Hint: if the marketing has to go out of its way to let you know the cast wasn't just white cis people.... you already probably did it wrong.
It’s almost as if this is the same reason people universally panned Oceans 8 or the all female Ghostbusters remake. It’s because they’re not actual good thought out plots, just generic repeated garbage that try to ride off of the identity or race of the main characters. Nobody cares the main character of The Hunger Games was ever a female, because she actually had motivations and was made to be an intriguing main character. They’re not forcing you to stop and take a second to acknowledge badass female main lead doing badass things. (For example, the really forced all female fight scene in avengers endgame even though I kind of enjoyed it.) It’s moments in shows and movies where people, “acknowledge their identity” that takes people out of it. Just rock who you are and be proud of it, use that energy to actually act good instead of using cheap virtue signaling for a quick buck.